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Humanities Section => Political/Government General Discussion => Topic started by: AdAstra95 on March 27, 2016, 01:52:08 AM

Title: Is the pope atheist?
Post by: AdAstra95 on March 27, 2016, 01:52:08 AM
If the Pope can convince people he can "talk to god" when he knows he hasn't, does that mean he's atheist? Or just lying on god's behalf in the meantime? Or is he actually convinced he can talk to God?
Title: Re: Is the pope atheist?
Post by: Baruch on March 27, 2016, 09:39:39 AM
Are you familiar with the theology of the Papacy?

From Peter thru to Francis, a true Pope is a manifestation of Jesus (see Homily/Epistle to the Hebrews).  There have been false Popes.  So Jesus speaks thru the Pope, when the Pope is speaking "ex cathedra" aka in his official capacity.  The Pope isn't Protestant ... Jesus isn't the Pope's fishing buddy.  Think of the Pope as Jesus' ventriloquist dummy.

People who pray, may think they are talking to G-d.  It is not the usual experience, to hear G-d talking back.  So in that capacity, the Pope speaks to G-d, but then so can any Catholic.
Title: Re: Is the pope atheist?
Post by: Hijiri Byakuren on March 27, 2016, 10:14:40 AM
The Pope has probably convinced himself that the voice in his head is God.
Title: Re: Is the pope atheist?
Post by: SGOS on March 27, 2016, 10:37:08 AM
I have no idea whether the Pope personally buys the dogma in it's entirety or not.  I'm 80% sure he probably believes in God, but the part about being the Big Guy's pipe line has got to test the limits of reality for most normal people. 

But it does bring up some theoretical questions.  First, if he is the Pipe Line, what was he before he was crowned Pope?  Did he realize he was destined for Popedom all along, because he kept having thoughts that agreed with the current Pope? 

Second, did the Pope vetting committee ask him what sort of mental sensations he had that tells him he is the real Pope?  Do they ask if he actually hears God's voice, or is it a sensation of great joy or anger that comes radiating out of his chest cavity when he is getting the Holy words for future pontification?  Does the vetting committee assume they have been touched by the hand of God during the time of the Pope Vote?  What happens to the Cardinals that vote for the other guys?  Are they excommunicated?

Title: Re: Is the pope atheist?
Post by: aitm on March 27, 2016, 10:54:18 AM
Even rapists hear voices in their head that they attribute to god………..er………………so I assume.
Title: Re: Is the pope atheist?
Post by: Baruch on March 27, 2016, 10:58:08 AM
Traditionally, the Cardinal who least wants to be Pope, is the one who deserves the job.

Pope Francis was recently photographed washing the feet of Muslim refugees ... actions speak louder than words.  The prior Pope got in trouble for bringing up the Middle Ages (and Crusading).
Title: Re: Is the pope atheist?
Post by: gentle_dissident on March 27, 2016, 12:25:09 PM
Quote from: AdAstra95 on March 27, 2016, 01:52:08 AM
Is the pope atheist?
Does a bear wear a funny hat?
Title: Re: Is the pope atheist?
Post by: AllPurposeAtheist on March 27, 2016, 12:32:11 PM
It would indeed be big news if the pope just came right out and said that god is imaginary.. Just imagine Ted Cruz's reaction if that happened. I'd buy a ticket to watch that..
Title: Re: Is the pope atheist?
Post by: Baruch on March 27, 2016, 01:17:16 PM
Quote from: AllPurposeAtheist on March 27, 2016, 12:32:11 PM
It would indeed be big news if the pope just came right out and said that god is imaginary.. Just imagine Ted Cruz's reaction if that happened. I'd buy a ticket to watch that..

People who are paid to not understand a thing, typically don't waste time trying to understand.
Title: Re: Is the pope atheist?
Post by: DeltaEpsilon on March 27, 2016, 09:16:40 PM
The human mind is particularly talented at illuding itself.

When I was younger I would see strange shapes made by normal objects such as blankets, trees, bushes etc. and mistake them for harmful people/objects. Sometimes I would mistake the wind for a voice as well. People that are religious are able to further illude themselves and their minds are able to convince themselves that the voices are the voices of certain religious figures.
Title: Re: Is the pope atheist?
Post by: facebook164 on March 28, 2016, 01:15:44 AM
Quote from: Baruch on March 27, 2016, 10:58:08 AM
Pope Francis was recently photographed washing the feet of Muslim refugees ... actions speak louder than words.
Which was a big slap in the face of all who is worksing with human care and washes feets and bums on a daily basis.
Title: Re: Is the pope atheist?
Post by: facebook164 on March 28, 2016, 01:15:54 AM
Quote from: Baruch on March 27, 2016, 10:58:08 AM
Pope Francis was recently photographed washing the feet of Muslim refugees ... actions speak louder than words.
Which was a big slap in the face of all who is worksing with human care and washes feets and bums on a daily basis.
Title: Re: Is the pope atheist?
Post by: facebook164 on March 28, 2016, 01:16:14 AM
Quote from: baruch
Pope Francis was recently photographed washing the feet of Muslim refugees ... actions speak louder than words.
Which was a big slap in the face of all who is worksing with human care and washes feets and bums on a daily basis.
Title: Re: Is the pope atheist?
Post by: facebook164 on March 28, 2016, 01:16:44 AM
Quote from: Baruch on March 27, 2016, 10:58:08 AM
Traditionally, the Cardinal who least wants to be Pope, is the one who deserves the job.

Pope Francis was recently photographed washing the feet of Muslim refugees ... actions speak louder than words.  The prior Pope got in trouble for bringing up the Middle Ages (and Crusading).
Which was a big slap in the face of all who is worksing with human care and washes feets and bums on a daily basis.
Title: Re: Is the pope atheist?
Post by: Baruch on March 28, 2016, 06:31:32 AM
Quote from: DeltaEpsilon on March 27, 2016, 09:16:40 PM
The human mind is particularly talented at illuding itself.

When I was younger I would see strange shapes made by normal objects such as blankets, trees, bushes etc. and mistake them for harmful people/objects. Sometimes I would mistake the wind for a voice as well. People that are religious are able to further illude themselves and their minds are able to convince themselves that the voices are the voices of certain religious figures.

There is nothing wrong with being deluded ... we are in the Matrix.  The question is ... do you control your delusions, or do your delusions control you?  But I understand, I have experienced fear and awe at the night sky, and had the limnal feeling at times.  Schizophrenia is a stage we all go thru as children.  Uncaused panic attacks or fear of heights is also a rush.  Your experiences are simply you recapitulating the paganism of your ancestors.  Just don't be a Narcissus about it ;-p
Title: Re: Is the pope atheist?
Post by: Unbeliever on March 30, 2016, 07:59:15 PM
I don't believe that any pope has ever believed in God - but that myth of Christ has served them well, it's been very lucrative.

How could a pope be considered the successor to Peter, who denied Jesus 3 times? I bet they have a ceremony for every new pope in which he ritually does just that.
Title: Re: Is the pope atheist?
Post by: Unbeliever on March 30, 2016, 07:59:51 PM
I don't believe that any pope has ever believed in God - but that myth of Christ has served them well, it's been very lucrative.

How could a pope be considered the successor to Peter, who denied Jesus 3 times? I bet they have a ceremony for every new pope in which he ritually does just that.
Title: Re: Is the pope atheist?
Post by: Unbeliever on March 30, 2016, 08:00:27 PM
I don't believe that any pope has ever believed in God - but that myth of Christ has served them well, it's been very lucrative.

How could a pope be considered the successor to Peter, who denied Jesus 3 times? I bet they have a ceremony for every new pope in which he ritually does just that.
Title: Re: Is the pope atheist?
Post by: Unbeliever on March 30, 2016, 08:02:32 PM
I don't believe that any pope has ever believed in God - but that myth of Christ has served them well, it's been very lucrative.

How could a pope be considered the successor to Peter, who denied Jesus 3 times? I bet they have a ceremony for every new pope in which he ritually does just that.
Title: Re: Is the pope atheist?
Post by: Unbeliever on March 30, 2016, 08:03:11 PM
I don't believe that any pope has ever believed in God - but that myth of Christ has served them well, it's been very lucrative.

How could a pope be considered the successor to Peter, who denied Jesus 3 times? I bet they have a ceremony for every new pope in which he ritually does just that.
Title: Re: Is the pope atheist?
Post by: Hijiri Byakuren on March 30, 2016, 11:06:36 PM
Quote from: Unbeliever on March 30, 2016, 07:59:15 PM
I don't believe that any pope has ever believed in God - but that myth of Christ has served them well, it's been very lucrative.

How could a pope be considered the successor to Peter, who denied Jesus 3 times? I bet they have a ceremony for every new pope in which he ritually does just that.
Quote from: Unbeliever on March 30, 2016, 08:03:11 PM
I don't believe that any pope has ever believed in God - but that myth of Christ has served them well, it's been very lucrative.

How could a pope be considered the successor to Peter, who denied Jesus 3 times? I bet they have a ceremony for every new pope in which he ritually does just that.
Quote from: Unbeliever on March 30, 2016, 08:03:11 PM
I don't believe that any pope has ever believed in God - but that myth of Christ has served them well, it's been very lucrative.

How could a pope be considered the successor to Peter, who denied Jesus 3 times? I bet they have a ceremony for every new pope in which he ritually does just that.
Quote from: Unbeliever on March 30, 2016, 08:03:11 PM
I don't believe that any pope has ever believed in God - but that myth of Christ has served them well, it's been very lucrative.

How could a pope be considered the successor to Peter, who denied Jesus 3 times? I bet they have a ceremony for every new pope in which he ritually does just that.
Quote from: Unbeliever on March 30, 2016, 08:03:11 PM
I don't believe that any pope has ever believed in God - but that myth of Christ has served them well, it's been very lucrative.

How could a pope be considered the successor to Peter, who denied Jesus 3 times? I bet they have a ceremony for every new pope in which he ritually does just that.
Holy quintuple post, Batman!
Title: Re: Is the pope atheist?
Post by: Jack89 on March 31, 2016, 01:35:27 PM
It would surprise me if the Pope has an anthropomorphic view of God since Catholic doctrine teaches otherwise. 
Title: Re: Is the pope atheist?
Post by: AllRight on April 01, 2016, 07:38:29 AM
It's a business... if they truly believed in the doctrine of Christ they would sell all their belongings an use the massive amounts of money to feed the hungry people in the world.
Title: Re: Is the pope atheist?
Post by: Mike Cl on April 01, 2016, 12:25:53 PM
Quote from: gentle_dissident on March 27, 2016, 12:25:09 PM
Does a bear wear a funny hat?
Nooo.......................but he shits in the woods. 
Title: Re: Is the pope atheist?
Post by: Mike Cl on April 01, 2016, 12:28:32 PM
Quote from: AdAstra95 on March 27, 2016, 01:52:08 AM
If the Pope can convince people he can "talk to god" when he knows he hasn't, does that mean he's atheist? Or just lying on god's behalf in the meantime? Or is he actually convinced he can talk to God?
Lying for god is not a bad thing--it's a christian thing and it is a tradition that goes all the way to prior to the beginning of that religion.  Of course the popes know they are lying--but they are doing it for you own good!
Title: Re: Is the pope atheist?
Post by: Unbeliever on April 01, 2016, 03:11:10 PM
Pious lies are no problem at all for Christians:


Quote from: Eusebius of NicomediaIt will sometimes be necessary to use falsehood for the benefit of those who need such a mode of treatment.

Quote from: Catholic Encyclical X, 195We [Catholics] are also under an obligation to keep secrets faithfully. And sometimes the easiest way to fulfill that duty is to say what is false, or to tell a lie.

Quote from: Edwin F. Healy, S. J., Moral Guidance, 1960At times one is obliged in concience to veil the truth, for there are secrets to be guarded and detractions to be avoided. Sometimes silence will not suffice to maintain the secret which one is trying to guard. In fact, it may happen that silence would betray the secret. Hence there must be some licit means of concealing the truth when necessary. This licit means is the broad mental reservation....One way of putting the question is to ask if a false statement is always a lie. Some theologians answer in the negative....Sometimes it is necessary to make a false statement in order to protect secret knowledge. Silence or the use of mental reservation is not sufficient; the only way to protect the secret is to make a statement contrary to what....you know to be true.

Quote from: Beausobre (theologian)Christians not only do not say what they think, but they do say the direct contrary of what they think. Philosophers in their cabinets; out of them they are content with fables, though they well know they are fables. Nay, more: they deliver honest men to the executioner, for having uttered what they themselves know to be true. How many atheists and pagans have burned holy men under the pretext of heresy? Every day do hypocrites consecrate, and make people adore the host, though as well convinced as I am, that it is nothing but a bit of bread.

Quote from: Augustine, On Lying, c. 19It is lawful then, to him that discusses, disputes and preaches of things eternal, or to him that narrates of things temporal pertaining to religion or piety, to conceal at fitting times whatever seems fit to be concealed.

Quote from: Gregory of Nanzianus (in a letter to St. Jerome)A little jargon is all that is necessary to impose upon the people. The less they comprehend, the more they admire. Our forefathers and doctors have often said, not what they thought, but what circumstances and necessity dictated.

Quote from: Hermas, Visions of Hermas, vol. 2, ch. 3Oh Lord, I never spoke a true word in my life, I have always affirmed a lie as truth to all men, and no man contradicted me; instead, they all gave credit to my works.

Quote from: Martin LutherWhat would it matter if, for the sake of the Christian Church, one were to tell a big lie?

Quote from: Martin LutherWhat harm would it do, if a man told a good strong lie for the sake of the good and for the Christian church...a lie out of necessity, a useful lie, a helpful lie, such lies would not be against God, he would accept them."
Title: Re: Is the pope atheist?
Post by: Mike Cl on April 01, 2016, 05:40:39 PM
Quote from: Mike Cl on April 01, 2016, 12:28:32 PM
Lying for god is not a bad thing--it's a christian thing and it is a tradition that goes all the way to prior to the beginning of that religion.  Of course the popes know they are lying--but they are doing it for you own good!
When I say that lying for god is not a bad thing, I mean in their own eyes.  It is simply a means to an end and that is all that matters to them.  So, if the pope is lying (and he is) it is because god allows it (so they tell themselves.)
Title: Re: Is the pope atheist?
Post by: widdershins on April 01, 2016, 05:51:41 PM
Are you kidding?  To right wingers he's something much, much worse.  He's a "liberal".
Title: Re: Is the pope atheist?
Post by: Jack89 on April 01, 2016, 07:35:16 PM
Quote from: AllRight on April 01, 2016, 07:38:29 AM
It's a business... if they truly believed in the doctrine of Christ they would sell all their belongings an use the massive amounts of money to feed the hungry people in the world.
That would throw a monkey wrench into the marketing.  I'm pretty sure the Catholic Church is the largest single charitable organization in the world and they need the fancy churches, cathedrals, hospitals, schools, etc to keep the money coming in. 
Title: Re: Is the pope atheist?
Post by: Baruch on April 01, 2016, 08:09:42 PM
Quote from: Jack89 on April 01, 2016, 07:35:16 PM
That would throw a monkey wrench into the marketing.  I'm pretty sure the Catholic Church is the largest single charitable organization in the world and they need the fancy churches, cathedrals, hospitals, schools, etc to keep the money coming in.

Except it does matter how much a contribution for the poor, is eaten up with administrative expenses.  It is very expensive to run the largest, oldest organization on Earth.
Title: Re: Is the pope atheist?
Post by: Jack89 on April 01, 2016, 11:49:10 PM
Quote from: Baruch on April 01, 2016, 08:09:42 PM
Except it does matter how much a contribution for the poor, is eaten up with administrative expenses.  It is very expensive to run the largest, oldest organization on Earth.
Sure it is, but they're still providing a massive amount of donated time and money to help the poor.  I recently heard the same criticism regarding the Wounded Warrior Project.  Their overhead is atrocious, about 40-50 percent, but they bring in over 300 million a year because of great marketing.  If the bad press kills the program, there's a shit load of money that's not getting to to disabled vets who need it.  And without the marketing, people aren't going to give to other similar organizations to pick up the slack. 

The Church is pretty good at fiscally decentralizing, so there isn't one massive bureaucracy controlling all the donations and distributions.  I'm guessing this helps keep administrative expenses down. 
Title: Re: Is the pope atheist?
Post by: Unbeliever on April 02, 2016, 03:19:52 PM
Quote from: widdershins on April 01, 2016, 05:51:41 PM
Are you kidding?  To right wingers he's something much, much worse.  He's a "liberal".

Those Bible believers ought to love liberals:

Pro 11:25
QuoteThe liberal soul shall be made fat: and he that watereth shall be watered also himself.
Isa 32:5
QuoteThe vile person shall be no more called liberal, nor the churl said to be bountiful.
Isa 32:8
QuoteBut the liberal deviseth liberal things; and by liberal things shall he stand.