The Nation's Peter Van Buren lays out why the invasion of Iraq was the worse foreign blunder clusterfuck ever in US history.. Good read even if old news..
http://www.thenation.com/article/173246 ... an-history (http://www.thenation.com/article/173246/why-invasion-iraq-was-single-worst-foreign-policy-decision-american-history)
Yes. Since that's not where Al Qaida was.... until they could get in afterwards.....
OK Saddam wasn't nice and he needed to go . So do many other heads of countries now and back then, but you wonder about the priorities that were considered back then by Bush and his advisers...
Gerard
Quote from: "Gerard"Yes. Since that's not where Al Qaida was.... until they could get in afterwards.....
OK Saddam wasn't nice and he needed to go . So do many other heads of countries now and back then, but you wonder about the priorities that were considered back then by Bush and his advisers...
Gerard
Son showing he could finish what daddy couldn't
Quote from: "Seabear"Quote from: "Gerard"Yes. Since that's not where Al Qaida was.... until they could get in afterwards.....
OK Saddam wasn't nice and he needed to go . So do many other heads of countries now and back then, but you wonder about the priorities that were considered back then by Bush and his advisers...
Gerard
Son showing he could finish what daddy couldn't
For all the talk of war for oil profits or whatever other reasons, I think this^ had more to do with it than anything. He seemed to have that family fuck up striving for approval thing going on. His little brother Jeb was the golden boy of the family that was expected to make an eventual presidential run back in the 90's, not Dubya.
(//http://i1281.photobucket.com/albums/a502/scott_myers3/551997_10151299815735493_455270395_n_zps934e666c.jpg)
Quote from: "Seabear"Son showing he could finish what daddy couldn't
That's all it ever was - a dick-measuring contest between Senior and Junior.
Saddam Hussein was probably the most surprised person of all in that war. He was suppressing the Shiites in Iraq and actually keeping things under control. Yes, he was an inhuman monster, but what we "accomplished" at the cost of billions was nothing. Should've come up with another plan.
Quote from: "Seabear"Quote from: "Gerard"Yes. Since that's not where Al Qaida was.... until they could get in afterwards.....
OK Saddam wasn't nice and he needed to go . So do many other heads of countries now and back then, but you wonder about the priorities that were considered back then by Bush and his advisers...
Gerard
Son showing he could finish what daddy couldn't
His dad was wise to not go downtown.
The Iraq war sucked but the worst foriegn policy fuck up of all?? How about WW1, the War of 1812, Mexican American War, Spanish American War, Viet Nam, and Korea just to name a few?
Quote from: "billhilly"The Iraq war sucked but the worst foriegn policy fuck up of all?? How about WW1, the War of 1812, Mexican American War, Spanish American War, Viet Nam, and Korea just to name a few?
Definitely in the top 10, then. Vietnam would be numero uno, imho, for the clear U.S. culpability in the war, the sheer number of casualties, the length of the war, controversial methods of prosecuting the war, and its terrible aftermath. Iraq's no slouch in those areas, either - with added emphasis on alienated allies and PR nightmare with the rest of the world. Top 5?
Iraq was a clusterfuck?
I'm Wolf Blitzer in the Situation Room, our top story tonight, DUH!
The region is far more destabilized and foreign policy in shambles.. Vietnam at least had a purpose even though flawed.. It didn't destabilize all of Asia.
Kurt Vonnegut famously said that the Vietnam War was "about nothing more than the ammunition business". That could be said of the Iraq invasion (Bush War II). Haliburton went in, bought gasoline in Saudi Arabia for pennies a gallon and sold it back to the U.S. Military in Iraq for $6/. They fed the troops there for $30/meal.
The invasion itself was not even necessary to topple Saddam. Nobody seemed to remember that at the end of Bush War I in 1990, Iraqi conscripts were falling over themselves to surrender. We could have marched to Baghdad and they would have handed us the keys to Saddam's palace. George I didn't want to hassle with the mess of rebuilding Iraq, and had liberated the Kuwaiti oil terminals.
in 2003 we could have toppled Saddam by massing tanks on the border, dropping leaflets, not bombs, and left the infrastructure, physical and bureaucratic, intact and Iraq would resemble more a postwar Germany or Japan.
Quote from: "billhilly"The Iraq war sucked but the worst foriegn policy fuck up of all?? How about WW1, the War of 1812, Mexican American War, Spanish American War, Viet Nam, and Korea just to name a few?
I think outranks all of those, for the simple reason that unlike those other wars, our Iraq invasion was unfunded, and added two trillion dollars of debt over the course of 9 years that saw the worst economic upheaval in 80 years. It has ramifications that extend beyond the senseless loss of life, though it's killed many people to no purpose, too.
Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"Quote from: "billhilly"The Iraq war sucked but the worst foriegn policy fuck up of all?? How about WW1, the War of 1812, Mexican American War, Spanish American War, , and Korea just to name a few?
I think outranks all of those, for the simple reason that unlike those other wars, our Iraq invasion was unfunded, and added two trillion dollars of debt over the course of 9 years that saw the worst economic upheaval in 80 years. It has ramifications that extend beyond the senseless loss of life, though it's killed many people to no purpose, too.
Are you out of your mind? Unfunded? Really? Like we saved up for all the other wars first? Damn. The housing bubble and age demographics with our social programs had much more to do with the economic bust than what was spent on the war.
The war sucked and was a shitty piece of foreign policy and a waste of a lot of money but it isn't even close to being the stupidest thing the country's ever done. How about getting involved in WW1? Redrawing the map of the old Ottoman empire into the fucked little countries that have been fighting ever since the ink dried was stupid and there wouldn't have been any Iraq to invade if Wilson hadn't inserted his know it all ass in on the deal. Lawrence was right. They should have let them work out their own politics. Then there's the tipping the balance problem. The heir to an empire headed by a tyrannical, hereditary monarch gets assassinated so Europe loses their collective minds and declares war on each other. The damn thing was a stalemate until Wilson and others decided the US should get involved. Without that tipping of the scales, there more than likely wouldn't have existed the conditions that led to the second world war.
Then there's Vietnam. Do you think the war savings account finally ran dry in 1973?
Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"Quote from: "Seabear"Quote from: "Gerard"Yes. Since that's not where Al Qaida was.... until they could get in afterwards.....
OK Saddam wasn't nice and he needed to go . So do many other heads of countries now and back then, but you wonder about the priorities that were considered back then by Bush and his advisers...
Gerard
Son showing he could finish what daddy couldn't
His dad was wise to not go downtown.
His dad couldn't go downtown. Part of the deal to get the support we did in the first war was to leave Saddam in power. I think he wanted to take him out, but didn't have reason as we were there to support Kuwait. Dubya was able to make a reason to take Saddam out.
So, the only good from it must have been taking out Saddam?
To me the biggest fuck up was when the USA nuked two civilian cities in Japan when the Japanese army was already defeated for all practical purposes.
I can't think of a worse immoral crime than to maim or kill millions of innocent men, woman, and children, where there wasn't any active enemy soldiers. And we are so righteous when Saddam used nerve gas to wipe out a village, and then we invade his country based on a lie that everyone took hook line and sinker.
And then we top it off by killing his two sons and use torture like he did knowing torture doesn't really work, unless they were all idiots. How many friends have we made in the world with those two examples based on the writings of Machiavelli ? :evil: :cry: Salitary
Quote from: "Solitary"To me the biggest fuck up was when the USA nuked two civilian cities in Japan when the Japanese army was already defeated for all practical purposes.
I can't think of a worse immoral crime than to maim or kill millions of innocent men, woman, and children, where there wasn't any active enemy soldiers. And we are so righteous when Saddam used nerve gas to wipe out a village, and then we invade his country based on a lie that everyone took hook line and sinker.
And then we top it off by killing his two sons and use torture like he did knowing torture doesn't really work, unless they were all idiots. How many friends have we made in the world with those two examples based on the writings of Machiavelli ? :evil: :cry: Salitary
Yeah, the nukes were a huge fuck up.
Part of the problem was the messenger to Japan came across as too weak when he delivered the "surrender or be nuked"... he didn't list all the demands the president wanted, and the emperor mistook this for a sign that the American will was breaking and it was a bluff.
Emperor's mistake aside though, there is no justification for the mass murder of civilians, even in time of war.
Quote from: "AllPurposeAtheist"the invasion of Iraq was the worse foreign blunder clusterfuck ever in US history
Well duh! I could have told you that back during the Iraq/Kuwait war!
I'm still trying to figure out where our government hasn't fucked up. The only one I can think of is making this a secular nation. I'm sure there are more. Any suggestions? Solitary
Quote from: "Solitary"I'm still trying to figure out where our government hasn't fucked up. The only one I can think of is making this a secular nation. I'm sure there are more. Any suggestions? Solitary
Please, and it can't even do that right.
Quote from: "billhilly"Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"Quote from: "billhilly"The Iraq war sucked but the worst foriegn policy fuck up of all?? How about WW1, the War of 1812, Mexican American War, Spanish American War, , and Korea just to name a few?
I think outranks all of those, for the simple reason that unlike those other wars, our Iraq invasion was unfunded, and added two trillion dollars of debt over the course of 9 years that saw the worst economic upheaval in 80 years. It has ramifications that extend beyond the senseless loss of life, though it's killed many people to no purpose, too.
Are you out of your mind? Unfunded? Really? Like we saved up for all the other wars first? Damn. The housing bubble and age demographics with our social programs had much more to do with the economic bust than what was spent on the war.
No, unfunded in the sense that we didn't raise taxes, nor did we sell bonds, nor did we otherwise do anything at all to pay for it, except put it on the credit card.
And I'm not saying that the war caused the bust. I'm saying that its shoddy financing left us much less latitude in dealing with it.
Quote from: "billhilly"The war sucked and was a shitty piece of foreign policy and a waste of a lot of money but it isn't even close to being the stupidest thing the country's ever done. How about getting involved in WW1? Redrawing the map of the old Ottoman empire into the fucked little countries that have been fighting ever since the ink dried was stupid and there wouldn't have been any Iraq to invade if Wilson hadn't inserted his know it all ass in on the deal. Lawrence was right. They should have let them work out their own politics. Then there's the tipping the balance problem. The heir to an empire headed by a tyrannical, hereditary monarch gets assassinated so Europe loses their collective minds and declares war on each other. The damn thing was a stalemate until Wilson and others decided the US should get involved. Without that tipping of the scales, there more than likely wouldn't have existed the conditions that led to the second world war.
This ignores the fact that America had much in outstanding loans to the Allies in that war, and letting Germany defeat them would have resulted in economic upheaval here.
Quote from: "billhilly"Then there's Vietnam. Do you think the war savings account finally ran dry in 1973?
You clearly misunderstood my point. Read the first part of this post for clarification.
QuoteThis ignores the fact that America had much in outstanding loans to the Allies in that war, and letting Germany defeat them would have resulted in economic upheaval here.
So millions dead is cool as long as we get our loans paid back? Really?
Quote from: "Solitary"To me the biggest fuck up was when the USA nuked two civilian cities in Japan when the Japanese army was already defeated for all practical purposes.
I can't think of a worse immoral crime than to maim or kill millions of innocent men, woman, and children, where there wasn't any active enemy soldiers.
QuoteFirst off, the targets were both military headquarters for their areas. One bomb went off almost directly over 5,000 IJA troops lined up for morning calisthentics. So the "no troops" idea is just lack of effort to find out the facts.
As for using the bombs themselves, I imagine you'd rather starve several million Japanese to death to avoid using them? Such a humanitarian! Babies, old folks and sick people go first in a starvation campaign, but I guess they're expendable.
A bit of a glass ceiling here for segments of the US like women and minorities, but good point.. The opportunities are here..
Quote from: "drunkenshoe"Quote from: "billhilly"How about getting involved in WW1? Redrawing the map of the old Ottoman empire into the fucked little countries that have been fighting ever since the ink dried was stupid and there wouldn't have been any Iraq to invade if Wilson hadn't inserted his know it all ass in on the deal. Lawrence was right. They should have let them work out their own politics.
:rollin:
It is/was the exact purpose of foreign American policy in the first place. First divide -ethnic, religion, race, social classes- and then intervene and direct -economics, direct or indirect influence, coups, feeding upraisings from opposite sides, terrorist attacks- if you can, create wars, attack and invade if you can't. Eventually after annihilating enough masses, you will be able to build a totalitarian world state.
I honestly don't get what kind of a compartmentalisation is at work here. Why do you think this has all started it in the first place? Do you think it started by itself accidentally and went from there? Do you really think people who shape your foreign policy is that clumsy, stupid or acting that random?
I'm sure Wilson probably did have a lot of what you mention in mind what with the League of Nations and all. I submit that the fact it was done on purpose doesn't mean it wasn't a fuck up.
Quote from: "Gawdzilla Sama"Quote from: "Solitary"To me the biggest fuck up was when the USA nuked two civilian cities in Japan when the Japanese army was already defeated for all practical purposes.
I can't think of a worse immoral crime than to maim or kill millions of innocent men, woman, and children, where there wasn't any active enemy soldiers.
QuoteFirst off, the targets were both military headquarters for their areas. One bomb went off almost directly over 5,000 IJA troops lined up for morning calisthentics. So the "no troops" idea is just lack of effort to find out the facts.
Bull Shit! You need to make an effort to get the facts! Unlike many other bombing raids, the goal for this raid had not been a military installation but rather an entire city. The atomic bomb that exploded over Hiroshima killed civilian women and children in addition to soldiers. Hiroshima's population has been estimated at 350,000; approximately 70,000 died immediately from the explosion and another 70,000 died from radiation within five years.
Approximately 40 percent of Nagasaki was destroyed. Luckily for many civilians living in Nagasaki, though this atomic bomb was considered much stronger than the one exploded over Hiroshima, the terrain of Nagasaki prevented the bomb from doing as much damage. Yet the decimation was still great. With a population of 270,000, approximately 70,000 people died by the end of the year.
As for using the bombs themselves, I imagine you'd rather starve several million Japanese to death to avoid using them? Such a humanitarian! Babies, old folks and sick people go first in a starvation campaign, but I guess they're expendable.
What in the hell are you talking about? First you think it's OK to kill soldiers with no regard to civilians because I guess they are expendable. Where the hell did I say a starving campaign was OK? The bombing had no military reason, and like I said they weren't active, and they weren't targeted for that reason. How many starved after the bombing? But "you" are a humanitarian right? :roll: Solitary
TOP SECRET TOP SECRET
Auth: C.O., Site Y, N.M.
Initials:
Date: 12 May 1945
This document consists of 7 Page(s)
No. 1 of 4 Copies, Series A
U-13-XIX-1A
DECLASSIFIED
E.O. 11653, Sec. 3(E) and 5(D) or (6)
NND 730039
By ERC NARS, Date 6-4-74
12 May 1945
Memorandum For: Major General L. R. Groves
Subject: Summary of Target Committee Meetings on 10 and 11 May 1945
1. The second meeting of the Target Committee convened at 9:00 AM 10 May in Dr. Oppenheimer's office at Site Y with the following present:
General Farrell Dr. C. Lauritsen
Colonel Seeman Dr. Ramsey
Captain Parsons Dr. Dennison
Major Derry Dr. von Neumann
Dr. Stearns Dr. Wilson
Dr. Tolman Dr. Penney
Dr. Oppenheimer
Dr. Bethe and Dr. Brode were brought into the meeting for discussion of Item A of the agenda. During the course of the meeting panels were formed from the committee members and others to meet in the afternoon and develop conclusions to items discussed in the agenda. The concluding meeting was held at 10:00 AM 11 May in Dr. Oppenheimer's office with the following present:
Colonel Seeman Dr. Stearns
Captain Parsons Dr. Von Neumann
Major Derry Dr. Dennison
Dr. Tolman Dr. Penney
Dr. Oppenheimer Dr. Ramsey
Dr. Wilson
2. The agenda for the meetings presented by Dr. Oppenheimer consisted of the following:
A. Height of Detonation
B: Report on Weather and Operations
C: Gadget Jettisoning and Landing
D: Status of Targets
E: Psychological Factors in Target Selection
F: Use Against Military Objectives
G: Radiological Effects
H: Coordinated Air Operations
I: Rehearsals
J: Operating Requirements for Safety of Airplanes
K: Coordination with 21st Program
3. Height of Detonation
A. The criteria for determining height selection were discussed. It was agreed that conservative figures should be used in determining the height since it is not possible to predict accurately the magnitude of the explosion and since the bomb can be detonated as much as 40% below the optimum with a reduction of 25% in area of damage whereas a detonation 14% above the optimum will cause the same loss in area. It was agreed that fuses should be prepared to meet the following possibilities:
(1) For the Little Boy the detonation heights should correspond to a pressure of 5 psi, a height of the Mach-stem of 100 feet and a magnitude of detonation of either 5,000 or 15,000 tons of H.E. equivalent. With present knowledge the fuse setting corresponding to 5,000 tons equivalent would be used but fusing for the other should be available in case more is known at the time of delivery. The height of detonation corresponding to 5,000 and 15,000 tons are 1550 feet and 2400 feet, respectively.
(2) For the Fat Man the detonation heights should correspond to a pressure of 5 psi, a height of the Mach-stem of 100 feet, and a magnitude of explosion of 700, 2,000, or 5,000 tons of H.E. equivalent. With the present information the fuse should be set at 2,000 tons equivalent but fusing for the other values should be available at the time of final delivery. The heights of detonation corresponding to 700, 2,000, and 5,000 tons are 580 feet, 1,000 feet and 1,550 feet, respectively. Trinity data will be used for this gadget.
B. In the case of the Fat Man delay circuits are introduced into the unit for purposes which make the detonation of the bomb 400 feet below the height at which the fuse is set. For this reason as far as the Fat Man is concerned the fuse settings should be 980 feet, 1,400 feet, or 1,950 feet.
C. In view of the above it was agreed by all present that fuses should be available at four (4) different height settings. These heights are 1,000 feet, 1,400 feet, 2,000 feet and 2,400 feet. With present information the 1,400 feet fuse would be most likely to be used for both the Fat Man and the Little Boy. (Later data presented by Dr. Brode modify the above conclusions on fusing and detonating heights; the differential height for the Little Boy is 210 feet and for the Fat Man 500 feet. For this reason some of the above figures must be revised).
4. Report on Weather and Operations
A. Dr. Dennison reported on the above subject. His report essentially covered the materials in his Top Secret memo of 9 May - Subject: "Preliminary report on Operational Procedures". For this reason his report will not be repeated here but is attached as an appendix. It was agreed by those present that the mission if at all possible should be a visual bombing mission. For this we should be prepared to wait until there is a good weather forecast in one or more of three alternative targets. There is only a 2% chance in this case that we will have to wait over two weeks. When the mission does take place there should be weather spotter aircraft over each of three alternative targets in order that an alternative target may be selected in the last hour of the flight if the weather is unpromising over the highest priority target.
B. In case the aircraft reaches the target and finds, despite these precautions that visual bombing is impossible, it should return to its base provided that it is in good operating condition. Only if the aircraft is in sufficiently bad shape that it is unlikely that it can return to base and make a safe landing or if it is essential that the drop be made that day should the drop be made with radar equipment. For this purpose it may be desirable to have an Eagle radar equipped plane accompany the mission in order that formation bombing with the Eagle plane in the lead can be made to obtain the increased accuracy from Eagle. A final decision as to the desirablity of this emergency procedure can only be made after further combat experience is obtained with Eagle aircraft. In any case every effort should be made to have the mission such that blind bombing will be unnecessary.
C. It was agreed that Dr. Stearns and Dr. Dennison should keep themselves continuously informed as to radar developments. If at any time new developments are available which show in combat a marked improvement of accuracy the basic plan may be altered.
D. It was agreed that Shoran was a very promising development for the 21st Bomber Command but that we should make no plans to use Shoran until its success is fully confirmed in normal bombing missions in that area.
E. The plan to use the gadget with visual bombing even though this may require a one day to three weeks delay requires that the gadget be such that for a period of at least three weeks it can be held in readiness in such a state that on twelve hours notice it can be prepared for a combat mission. No difficulty in this regard was foreseen by those present.
5. Gadget Jettisoning and Landing
A. It was agreed that if the aircraft has to return to its base with the gadget and if it is in good condition when it has reached there, it should make a normal landing with the greatest possible care and with such precautions as stand-by fire equipment being held in readiness on the ground. This operation will inevitably involve some risks to the base and to the other aircraft parked on the field. However, the chance of a crash when the aircraft is in good condition and the chances of a crash initiating a high order explosion are both sufficiently small that it was the view of those present that the landing operation with the unit under these circumstances was a justifiable risk. Frequent landings with inert and H.E. filled units have been made in the past. Training in landing with the unit should be given to all crews who carry an active unit.
B. In case the aircraft returns to its base and then finds that it cannot make a normal landing it may be necessary to jettison the bomb. In the case of the Fat Man this can probably best be accomplished by dropping the bomb into shallow water from a low altitude. Tests on this will be carried out with both inert and live units. In the case of the Little Boy the situation is considerably more complicated since water leaking into the Little boy will set off a nuclear reaction, and since the American held territory in the vicinity of the base is so densely filled that no suitable jettisoning ground for the Little Boy has been found which is sufficiently devoid of moisture, which is sufficiently soft that the projectile is sure not to seat from the impact, and which is sufficiently remote from extremely important American installations whose damage by a nuclear explosion would seriously affect the American war effort.
The best emergency procedure that has so far been proposed is considered to be the removal of the gunpowder from the gun and the execution of a crash landing. In this case there is no danger of fire setting off the gun and the accelerations should be sufficiently small to prevent seating of the projectile by the impact. Tests on the feasibility of unloading the gun powder in flight will be conducted.
C. It was agreed that prior to actual delivery some form of instructions should be prepared as a guide to the senior man on the aircraft as to procedures to be followed in cases of different types of disasters.
6. Status of Targets
A. Dr. Stearns described the work he had done on target selection. He has surveyed possible targets possessing the following qualification: (1) they be important targets in a large urban area of more than three miles in diameter, (2) they be capable of being damaged effectively by a blast, and (3) they are unlikely to be attacked by next August. Dr. Stearns had a list of five targets which the Air Force would be willing to reserve for our use unless unforeseen circumstances arise.
These targets are:
(1) Kyoto - This target is an urban industrial area with a population of 1,000,000. It is the former capital of Japan and many people and industries are now being moved there as other areas are being destroyed. From the psychological point of view there is the advantage that Kyoto is an intellectual center for Japan and the people there are more apt to appreciate the significance of such a weapon as the gadget. (Classified as an AA Target)
(2) Hiroshima - This is an important army depot and port of embarkation in the middle of an urban industrial area. It is a good radar target and it is such a size that a large part of the city could be extensively damaged. There are adjacent hills which are likely to produce a focussing effect which would considerably increase the blast damage. Due to rivers it is not a good incendiary target. (Classified as an AA Target)
(3) Yokohama - This target is an important urban industrial area which has so far been untouched. Industrial activities include aircraft manufacture, machine tools, docks, electrical equipment and oil refineries. As the damage to Tokyo has increased additional industries have moved to Yokohama. It has the disadvantage of the most important target areas being separated by a large body of water and of being in the heaviest anti-aircraft concentration in Japan. For us it has the advantage as an alternate target for use in case of bad weather of being rather far removed from the other targets considered. (Classified as an A Target)
(4) Kokura Arsenal - This is one of the largest arsenals in Japan and is surrounded by urban industrial structures. The arsenal is important for light ordnance, anti-aircraft and beach head defense materials. The dimensions of the arsenal are 4100' x 2000'. The dimensions are such that if the bomb were properly placed full advantage could be taken of the higher pressures immediately underneath the bomb for destroying the more solid structures and at the same time considerable blast damage could be done to more feeble structures further away. (Classified as an A Target)
(5) Niigata - This is a port of embarkation on the N.W. coast of Honshu. Its importance is increasing as other ports are damaged. Machine tool industries are located there and it is a potential center for industrial despersion. It has oil refineries and storage. (Classified as a B Target)
(6) The possibility of bombing the Emperor's palace was discussed. It was agreed that we should not recommend it but that any action for this bombing should come from authorities on military policy. It was agreed that we should obtain information from which we could determine the effectiveness of our weapon against this target.
B. It was the recommendation of those present at the meeting that the first four choices of targets for our weapon should be the following:
a. Kyoto
b. Hiroshima
c. Yokohama
d. Kokura Arsenal
C. Dr. Stearns agreed to do the following: (1) brief Colonel Fisher thoroughly on these matters, (2) request reservations for these targets, (3) find out more about the target area including exact locations of the strategic industries there, (4) obtain further photo information on the targets, and (5) to determine the nature of the construction, the area, heights, contents and roof coverage of buildings. He also agreed to keep in touch with the target data as it develops and to keep the committee advised of other possible target areas. He will also check on locations of small military targets and obtain further details on the Emperor's palace.
7. Psychological Factors in Target Selection
A. It was agreed that psychological factors in the target selection were of great importance. Two aspects of this are (1) obtaining the greatest psychological effect against Japan and (2) making the initial use sufficiently spectacular for the importance of the weapon to be internationally recognized when publicity on it is released.
B. In this respect Kyoto has the advantage of the people being more highly intelligent and hence better able to appreciate the significance of the weapon. Hiroshima has the advantage of being such a size and with possible focussing from nearby mountains that a large fraction of the city may be destroyed. The Emperor's palace in Tokyo has a greater fame than any other target but is of least strategic value.
8. Use Against "Military" Objectives
A. It was agreed that for the initial use of the weapon any small and strictly military objective should be located in a much larger area subject to blast damage in order to avoid undue risks of the weapon being lost due to bad placing of the bomb.
9. Radiological Effect
A. Dr. Oppenheimer presented a memo he had prepared on the radiological effects of the gadget. This memo will not be repeated in this summary but it is being sent to General Groves as a separate exhibit. The basic recommendations of this memo are (1) for radiological reasons no aircraft should be closer than 2-1/2 miles to the point of detonation (for blast reasons the distance should be greater) and (2) aircraft must avoid the cloud of radio-active materials. If other aircraft are to conduct missions shortly after the detonation a monitoring plane should determine the areas to be avoided.
10. Coordinated Air Operations
A. The feasibility of following the raid by an incendiary mission was discussed. This has the great advantage that the enemies' fire fighting ability will probably be paralyzed by the gadget so that a very serious conflagration should be capable of being started. However, until more is learned about the phenomena associated with a detonation of the gadget, such as the extent to which there will be radio-active clouds, an incendiary mission immediately after the delivery of the gadget should be avoided. A coordinated incendiary raid should be feasible on the following day at which time the fire raid should still be quite effective.
By delaying the coordinated raid to the following day, the scheduling of our already contemplated operations will not be made even more difficult, photo reconnaissance of the actual damage directly caused by our device can be obtained without confusion from the subsequent fire raid, and dangers from radio-active clouds can be avoided.
B. Fighter cover should be used for the operation as directed by the 21st Bomber Command.
11. Rehearsals
A. It was agreed by all that very complete rehearsals of the entire operation are essential to its success. It is possible for thirty (30) pumpkin units for this purpose to be shipped from this country in June with perhaps sixty (60) being shipped in July. These rehearsals overseas should take place beginning in July. At least some of the rehearsals should be very complete including the placing of spotter aircraft over the alternative targets, use of fighter cover, etc. Even though it is hoped that radar will not be used some rehearsals of radar operations are required in order that the operations may be carried out successfully if emergency arises for which they are required.
12. Operating Requirements for Safety of Aircraft
A. Dr. Penney reported some very encouraging information he had just received from England in this respect. His previous information was that no one could guarantee the safety of a large aircraft at blast pressures greater than 1/2 lb. per square inch. However, in some recent experiments in England large aircraft have been flown over detonations of 2,000 lbs. of TNT and pilots have not objected to going as low as 900 feet. On this basis with a 100,000 ton total equivalent energy release or a 64,000 ton equivalent blast energy 23,000 feet would be a safe altitude on the basis of these experiments if allowance is made for the rarefaction of the atmosphere at high altitudes. However, due to the greater duration of the blast in our case, the safe height will probably be somewhat greater.
13. Coordination with 21st Program
A. This matter was included as part of the other discussion and is included in previous paragraphs of this summary.
14. It was agreed that the next meeting of the Target Committee should take place at 9:00 AM EWT on 28 May in Room 4E200 of the Pentagon Building in Washington. Dr. Oppenheimer recommended and others agreed that either Captain Parsons and/or Dr. Ramsey should attend this meeting.
15. In view of the high classification of the minutes of this meeting it was agreed that copies should not be sent to those present but that instead one copy should be kept on file in General Groves' office, one copy in Dr. Oppenheimer's office, and one copy in Captain Parson's office.
Major J. A. Derry
Notice the total disregard for civilians, but what should expect from a Nazi sympathizer like Dr. Oppenheimer? :roll: Solitary
Quote from: "Solitary"What in the hell are you talking about? First you think it's OK to kill soldiers with no regard to civilians because I guess they are expendable. Where the hell did I say a starving campaign was OK? The bombing had no military reason, and like I said they weren't active, and they weren't targeted for that reason. How many starved after the bombing? But "you" are a humanitarian right? :roll: Solitary
You are massively ignorant of the facts of the matter. I have a half-dozen books that will sort this out for you, but I bet you won't read them, because you already know what you want to know.
Sky tv in England has just run the HBO series "Oliver Stones untold history of the United States ,excellent viewing, Stones perspective of the the US is refreshing from my bleeding heart liberal stance and hes not afraid to show the US dark side.He seems to say that the US government is just a deinformation lobby while generals and the CIA get on with the work defending the US foreign interests ie multi nationals and Iraq is one of many"projects" that they undertook.
He does sometimes waffle on about your lost messiah Henry A Wallace and I would imagine he gets a bad press when he talks politics in the US but he does give interesting insight into a more believable history of the US than I ever learnt in school.....
The Iraqi war was not a mistake. It was a calculated way to make the rich, richer and to silence Saddam Hussein once and for all. The U.S. and United Kingdom's governments knew Hussein had WMD's, because they sold them to him. And like in Afghanistan we were supposed to get in, get specific objectives done, then get out. In and out in 6 months, a year tops. But, the rich liked getting richer and forced Dubya to prolong things. Then Obama got into office, and found out which side of the bread he had butter on and prolonged our being in Iraq for another 4 years. Which helped ensure he got another 4 years.
Yes, ladies and gentlemen. I am a conspiracy nut. I believe the rich run the world for themselves and it doesn't matter to them how many of us peasants have to die. Every war which I have studied, have been about money. The Colonies rebelled against Britain not because of taxation without representation, but because the Crown wouldn't let the colonies print their own money. War of 1812 wasn't about illegal impressment, it was about market share and the chance to pillage Canada. The Mexican War was about a land grab, so slave owners could have more room to work their slaves. On and on. And they all had a Pearl Harbor like incident to get them rolling.
So you see, the Iraqi war was not a mistake. It made billions for the billionaires.
Oh, I always thought the bombs were dropped on Japan to try and intimidate Stalin. But, then Stalin was already working on his own bombs, thanks to Communist spies in our State Department. And the powers that be, didn't give a rat's ass how many innocents had to die to get what they wanted.
In my view, in a modern sense, one of the worst fumbles of American foreign policy is the current Syrian war. Instead of helping the moderates overthrow a nasty tyrant, the U.S. and the rest of the west for that matter stood by and watched as Assad destroyed the entire country to preserve his 43 year family inherited police state dictatorship. Because of the inaction of the west, various hardcore fundamentalist groups filled the big gap that was left and now they are very powerful. I don't think they are powerful enough to overthrow Assad, but they will give him a very hard time and because they are there, the entire country will become a haven for militants.
Quote from: "LikelyToBreak"The Iraqi war was not a mistake. It was a calculated way to make the rich, richer and to silence Saddam Hussein once and for all. The U.S. and United Kingdom's governments knew Hussein had WMD's
We knew he had them - 13 years earlier. As we found out once we had the freedom to move about, he had nothing he could have threatened Kuwait with by the time we invaded.
Quote from: "billhilly"QuoteThis ignores the fact that America had much in outstanding loans to the Allies in that war, and letting Germany defeat them would have resulted in economic upheaval here.
So millions dead is cool as long as we get our loans paid back? Really?
I'm not sure where you read that I thought it was "cool". You're obviously not interested in reading what I'm actually writing; this is not the first time you've tried to strawman a point of mine. I'm trying to explain the historical forces in play at the time, not saying they're justified.
Most wars suck, most reasons for war are not really good, and attempting to impute any other view to me is inaccurate. Are you being deliberately obtuse, in search of an argument? I'm not interested in that, myself.
Also, there weren't "millions" of American dead. I'm sure you knew that already, right?
Quote from: "Solitary"To me the biggest fuck up was when the USA nuked two civilian cities in Japan when the Japanese army was already defeated for all practical purposes.
I can't think of a worse immoral crime than to maim or kill millions of innocent men, woman, and children, where there wasn't any active enemy soldiers. And we are so righteous when Saddam used nerve gas to wipe out a village, and then we invade his country based on a lie that everyone took hook line and sinker.
And then we top it off by killing his two sons and use torture like he did knowing torture doesn't really work, unless they were all idiots. How many friends have we made in the world with those two examples based on the writings of Machiavelli ? :evil: :cry: Salitary
Why does everybody focus so much on the nukes? Some fire bombings killed more people.
Fact is, if the nukes hadn't cowed Japan to surrender, the submarine/mining blockade may well have killed millions. Intracoastal traffic in the Japanese islands had been effectively halted, so there was no way to get what little rice grown that year to the cities.
The nuclear bombs gave Japan a graceful surrender, allowing them to save millions of Japanese lives which would likely have been lost in Olympic.
Quote from: "ParaGoomba Slayer"Quote from: "Solitary"To me the biggest fuck up was when the USA nuked two civilian cities in Japan when the Japanese army was already defeated for all practical purposes.
I can't think of a worse immoral crime than to maim or kill millions of innocent men, woman, and children, where there wasn't any active enemy soldiers. And we are so righteous when Saddam used nerve gas to wipe out a village, and then we invade his country based on a lie that everyone took hook line and sinker.
And then we top it off by killing his two sons and use torture like he did knowing torture doesn't really work, unless they were all idiots. How many friends have we made in the world with those two examples based on the writings of Machiavelli ? :evil: :cry: Salitary
Why does everybody focus so much on the nukes? Some fire bombings killed more people.
The firebombs didn't take years of torture to kill people or fuck up generations afterwards.
As for the nukes, my problem with it is that they were unnecessary; if the story is true, the ambassador who delivered the terms of surrender came across as too weak and so the Japanese thought it was just a bluff. If anything I blame him more than anyone else.
Quote from: "BarkAtTheMoon"Quote from: "Seabear"Quote from: "Gerard"Yes. Since that's not where Al Qaida was.... until they could get in afterwards.....
OK Saddam wasn't nice and he needed to go . So do many other heads of countries now and back then, but you wonder about the priorities that were considered back then by Bush and his advisers...
Gerard
Son showing he could finish what daddy couldn't
For all the talk of war for oil profits or whatever other reasons, I think this^ had more to do with it than anything. He seemed to have that family fuck up striving for approval thing going on. His little brother Jeb was the golden boy of the family that was expected to make an eventual presidential run back in the 90's, not Dubya.
Before he ran, Bush 43 hired a ghostwriter, Mickey Herskovitz to help write a book explaining why Bush would make a good president. Bush talked about Iraq, and hiss idea was that by attacking Iraq and defeating a militarily weak regime, he'd become a war hero and accrue "political capitol".
It had nothing to do with oil or defeating an evil dictator. Political capitol, approval rratings so high he could do whatever he wanted and brush all opposition aside.
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/1028-01.htm (http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/1028-01.htm)
Published on Thursday, October 28, 2004 by GNN.tv
Two Years Before 9/11, Candidate Bush was Already Talking Privately About Attacking Iraq, According to His Former Ghost Writer
by Russ Baker
HOUSTON -- Two years before the September 11 attacks, presidential candidate George W. Bush was already talking privately about the political benefits of attacking Iraq, according to his former ghost writer, who held many conversations with then-Texas Governor Bush in preparation for a planned autobiography.
"He was thinking about invading Iraq in 1999," said author and journalist Mickey Herskowitz. "It was on his mind. He said to me: 'One of the keys to being seen as a great leader is to be seen as a commander-in-chief.' And he said, 'My father had all this political capital built up when he drove the Iraqis out of Kuwait and he wasted it.' He said, 'If I have a chance to invade?.if I had that much capital, I'm not going to waste it. I'm going to get everything passed that I want to get passed and I'm going to have a successful presidency."
Bush had a falling out with Herskovitz, and fired him. He was put up to this by a gaggle of neocons who were rather impressed at how Margret Thatcher, well hated at large, revived her political fortune by defeating Argentina.
Cheerful Charlie
So all these people are killed and maimed so that Dubya could have s nice fantasy legacy that didn't turn out so peachy after all. He's still stinking filthy rotten rich because of it and treated as royalty in Texas.
Quote from: "Shiranu"Quote from: "ParaGoomba Slayer"Quote from: "Solitary"To me the biggest fuck up was when the USA nuked two civilian cities in Japan when the Japanese army was already defeated for all practical purposes.
I can't think of a worse immoral crime than to maim or kill millions of innocent men, woman, and children, where there wasn't any active enemy soldiers. And we are so righteous when Saddam used nerve gas to wipe out a village, and then we invade his country based on a lie that everyone took hook line and sinker.
And then we top it off by killing his two sons and use torture like he did knowing torture doesn't really work, unless they were all idiots. How many friends have we made in the world with those two examples based on the writings of Machiavelli ? :evil: :cry: Salitary
Why does everybody focus so much on the nukes? Some fire bombings killed more people.
The firebombs didn't take years of torture to kill people or fuck up generations afterwards.
As for the nukes, my problem with it is that they were unnecessary; if the story is true, the ambassador who delivered the terms of surrender came across as too weak and so the Japanese thought it was just a bluff. If anything I blame him more than anyone else.
I get that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were terrible, arguably more terrible than some firebombings, but I still don't understand why they seem to be the strategic bombings that get the bulk of the criticism. At least they brought an end to the war. Shit, we set fire to half of Tokyo and killed 100,000 people.
Quote from: "Shiranu"The firebombs didn't take years of torture to kill people or fuck up generations afterwards.
As for the nukes, my problem with it is that they were unnecessary; if the story is true, the ambassador who delivered the terms of surrender came across as too weak and so the Japanese thought it was just a bluff. If anything I blame him more than anyone else.
Those terms weren't delivered by an ambassador, they were delivered by a President and a Prime Minister, at the end of the Potsdam Conference.. They were quite clear, and unmistakable.
The Korean war, although it was probably more of a military strategy mistake than a foreign policy one.
Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"Quote from: "Shiranu"The firebombs didn't take years of torture to kill people or fuck up generations afterwards.
As for the nukes, my problem with it is that they were unnecessary; if the story is true, the ambassador who delivered the terms of surrender came across as too weak and so the Japanese thought it was just a bluff. If anything I blame him more than anyone else.
Those terms weren't delivered by an ambassador, they were delivered by a President and a Prime Minister, at the end of the Potsdam Conference.. They were quite clear, and unmistakable.
Shit yeah I got that backwards, the Japanese ambassador was the one who said that he felt they went out of their way to appeal to the Japanese government, making them look weak.
before we all decide that foreign policy fuckups are an undesirable thing....
Isn't foreign policy fuckups how the USA came to be in the first place?
"Why", not "how", but yes. If Britain had even agreed to negotiate, we might still be part of the Commonwealth.