I have searched scripture but I can find no explanation as to how god intends to judge every single person that ever lived on a case by case basis on the glorious Day of Judgement. How long is this process going to take? Can you imagine how long the line will be.? Is it worth fetching a tent and camp outside the day before, to steal a march on everyone else? Will there be refreshments. So many questions. Can anyone answer these issues for me as I am not sleeping well from pondering it all.
First things first.
How does Santa visits every single house on Xmas night?
Quote from: 1liesalot on November 12, 2015, 09:13:23 AM
I have searched scripture but I can find no explanation as to how god intends to judge every single person that ever lived on a case by case basis on the glorious Day of Judgement. How long is this process going to take? Can you imagine how long the line will be.? Is it worth fetching a tent and camp outside the day before, to steal a march on everyone else? Will there be refreshments. So many questions. Can anyone answer these issues for me as I am not sleeping well from pondering it all.
Because God exists outside space and time it already knows the beginning, middle and end of everyone's story. The story is written, we just can't read it.
Free will is an illusion resulting from a human's inability to understand the nature of time.
Oh, and there is no judgment. Good and bad are human perspectives and meaningless on a cosmic scale.
Depends if you consider the book literal or allegorical or cherry pick to your liking. I believe there are some verses in Revelations that suggest that only 144,000 get in anyway. But I am sure someone will argue that away as some math error due to goat herders not being known for their math.
Quote from: 1liesalot on November 12, 2015, 09:13:23 AM
I have searched scripture but I can find no explanation as to how god intends to judge every single person that ever lived on a case by case basis on the glorious Day of Judgement. How long is this process going to take? Can you imagine how long the line will be.? Is it worth fetching a tent and camp outside the day before, to steal a march on everyone else? Will there be refreshments. So many questions. Can anyone answer these issues for me as I am not sleeping well from pondering it all.
Don't forget, Gaad may have a whole multiverse (and how many universes does that contain) to judge. There may even be multiple multiverses! So hard this is to consider without making yourself dizzy!
In the original judgement story, from Egypt, you get judged as you arrive ... there is no reason to procrastinate ;-)
Why is it always a white throne? Why can't black people have a throne? Man, God is such a fucking racist...
Quote from: 1liesalot on November 12, 2015, 09:13:23 AM
I have searched scripture but I can find no explanation as to how god intends to judge every single person that ever lived on a case by case basis on the glorious Day of Judgement. How long is this process going to take? Can you imagine how long the line will be.? Is it worth fetching a tent and camp outside the day before, to steal a march on everyone else? Will there be refreshments. So many questions. Can anyone answer these issues for me as I am not sleeping well from pondering it all.
But Gaad is everywhere, and answers prayer everywhere, therefore he takes his Great White Throne everywhere too - it follows him, lashed to his Holy Flatbed, right next to his Hole-E-Of-Holies Port-O-Johnny.
Checkmate, Atheist! :72:
Quote from: aitm on November 12, 2015, 11:06:21 AM
Depends if you consider the book literal or allegorical or cherry pick to your liking. I believe there are some verses in Revelations that suggest that only 144,000 get in anyway. But I am sure someone will argue that away as some math error due to goat herders not being known for their math.
Yeah, well the Bible isn't very reliable at all when it comes to arithmetic:
Numerical Contradictions (http://nullgod.com/index.php/topic,5.msg13.html#msg13)
(http://m.memegen.com/igznwh.jpg)
QuoteI have searched scripture but I can find no explanation as to how god intends to judge every single person that ever lived on a case by case basis on the glorious Day of Judgement. How long is this process going to take? Can you imagine how long the line will be.? Is it worth fetching a tent and camp outside the day before, to steal a march on everyone else? Will there be refreshments. So many questions. Can anyone answer these issues for me as I am not sleeping well from pondering it all.
Man's existence on the planet is a mere blip in the span of the universe. Seven billion people, or even 60 billion may seem like a lot from our perspective, but given the time allotted to the universe, it becomes an easy count for a relatively competent accountant with an extraordinary life span.
Add to that, when you die, time ceases to exist. Whether you die today or 3 million years from now, when you awake on Judgment Day, it will be like a <pop> of a flash bulb. You will have no sensation of the laborious accounting process that has taken place in your absence. Everything will have been sorted out, and you will be instantly aware of whether you have been selected to pass through the pearly gates, or pushed down the Hell Chute to God's technologically primitive version of Hitler's gas chamber.
While this may seem absurd to you now, it will make perfect sense on Judgment Day, when all becomes clear and ultimate knowledge becomes available without a tedious learning curve or a time consuming scientific process.
What? No <sarc>?
Quote from: Baruch on November 13, 2015, 12:35:56 PM
What? No <sarc>?
Well OK. I'll retract the part about it being easy for a competent accountant. It would likely be Hellishly boring after a million years. Although, I do know a couple of judgmental Christians, who have already self appointed themselves as God's sorter-outers, although they have a more intuitive approach to the problem than the average accountant.
The ancient world had a different understanding of time, although revelation is in greek and was written allegedly by a political exile on the isle of patmos,
The hebrew word for yom doesnt translate exactly as day, and indicates a period of time, so i would some that up to its an ancient middle easterner writing about the end of the world and that wont make much sense to a post modern westerner. So I dont know, but I know Americans have a funny understanding of time as compared to other cultures
Quote from: Contemporary Protestant on November 13, 2015, 02:33:17 PM
The ancient world had a different understanding of time, although revelation is in greek and was written allegedly by a political exile on the isle of patmos,
The hebrew word for yom doesnt translate exactly as day, and indicates a period of time, so i would some that up to its an ancient middle easterner writing about the end of the world and that wont make much sense to a post modern westerner. So I dont know, but I know Americans have a funny understanding of time as compared to other cultures
Yes, ancient words don't translate well to modern culture. Spiritual words don't translate at all to secular folks. In fact modern words don't translate to understanding ... they are just advertising and twerking. But it is possible with much study, to manage to separate out the multiple meanings of time, or love ... in modern or ancient languages.
In English often one word has five or more meanings ... depending on context. This is just lazy. Most languages, including ancient ones, have separate words for separate meanings (there are exceptions ... ancient Egyptian, Chinese and Japanese are homonym heavy ... this is why they don't use alphabets).
In the far, far future, when there's very little energy left to do any work, the life of those times may be able to tap into Hell and get an infinite amount of energy to use, forever.
That is, assuming that Hell exists, that it contains infinite energy, and that life can tap into it.
:think:
Quote from: peacewithoutgod on November 12, 2015, 12:26:13 PM
Don't forget, Gaad may have a whole multiverse (and how many universes does that contain) to judge. There may even be multiple multiverses! So hard this is to consider without making yourself dizzy!
Oh my God, yeah. I think I'll head for Limbo instead, even though the Vatican has abolished it.
If it turns out I've got another self in another part of the multiverse, and it turns out that he's a perfect Christian and one of God's chosen, could this create some kind of paradox? I wonder if I could switch my report card with his.
Quote from: aitm on November 12, 2015, 11:06:21 AM
Depends if you consider the book literal or allegorical or cherry pick to your liking. I believe there are some verses in Revelations that suggest that only 144,000 get in anyway. But I am sure someone will argue that away as some math error due to goat herders not being known for their math.
That number is not specifically mentioned. It mentions 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel, in, as I recall, truly Biblical fashion, saying "12,000 from this tribe and 12,000 from that tribe", naming all 12. The math comes out to 144,000, the significance of which depends on your particular belief system. The Jehovah's Witnesses, for instance, believe that is literally how many will actually get into "Heaven", all born on or before 1933, when their founder and Master of Woo predicted the end of the world (for the...ninth and final time, maybe?). The rest will be on a remade Earth known as "Paradise Earth". Why the separation, I'm not sure. Perhaps Heaven only had room for a finite number of condos or something. Still, you'd think they might have come up with some sort of time share thing so that everyone could enjoy it for 2 weeks out of the year or something. What were we talking about?
Your mistake was looking for clear, coherent answers in scripture.
Quote from: SilentFutility on November 27, 2015, 04:46:04 PM
Your mistake was looking for clear, coherent answers in scripture.
Well, that clears the whole thing up, lol!
Quote from: widdershins on November 27, 2015, 02:49:29 PM
That number is not specifically mentioned. It mentions 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel, in, as I recall, truly Biblical fashion, saying "12,000 from this tribe and 12,000 from that tribe", naming all 12. The math comes out to 144,000, the significance of which depends on your particular belief system. The Jehovah's Witnesses, for instance, believe that is literally how many will actually get into "Heaven", all born on or before 1933, when their founder and Master of Woo predicted the end of the world (for the...ninth and final time, maybe?). The rest will be on a remade Earth known as "Paradise Earth". Why the separation, I'm not sure. Perhaps Heaven only had room for a finite number of condos or something. Still, you'd think they might have come up with some sort of time share thing so that everyone could enjoy it for 2 weeks out of the year or something. What were we talking about?
The actual description in Revelations of the heavenly city ... is like a giant Borg ship made out of gold ... with lots of impractical gem stones added in ;-) So yes, it is finite in size. And if being in G-d's literal presence means that you lose free will ... then it is very Borg indeed. Resistance is futile! You will be converted!
Quote from: 1liesalot on November 12, 2015, 09:13:23 AM
I have searched scripture but I can find no explanation as to how god intends to judge every single person that ever lived on a case by case basis on the glorious Day of Judgement. How long is this process going to take? Can you imagine how long the line will be.? Is it worth fetching a tent and camp outside the day before, to steal a march on everyone else? Will there be refreshments. So many questions. Can anyone answer these issues for me as I am not sleeping well from pondering it all.
Ah, yes...because the impracticality of God judging people in a line bothers you, you assume it is impossible. You giant ignoramus.
God can do anything, including judging 100 trillion people at once. Not that I actually know how the white throne judgement is going to happen, but your satirical assessment is nothing short of idiotic.
Quote from: MilesAbbott on December 04, 2015, 01:29:40 AM
Ah, yes...because the impracticality of God judging people in a line bothers you, you assume it is impossible. You giant ignoramus.
God can do anything, including judging 100 trillion people at once. Not that I actually know how the white throne judgement is going to happen, but your satirical assessment is nothing short of idiotic.
In spite of being able to do anything ... G-d seems to be remarkably marginal at G-d's job ... if we assume benevolence.
Quote from: Baruch on December 04, 2015, 02:18:50 AM
In spite of being able to do anything ... G-d seems to be remarkably marginal at G-d's job ... if we assume benevolence.
I blame a lack of prior experience, bad work/life balance, and nepotism tendencies. :P
How is he going to judge 10 trillion people when he can't even stop a tidal wave from wiping out a village of innocents? And come to think of it, why did he create cancer if he's so benevolent? Why did he tell us he created the universe in 7 days? If we stop right there, these claims start to smell a little fishy, don't you think? If we go further and examine everything he's been reported to do, today's god starts to look like all the rest of the mythological gods that came before it. Gods are eventually discarded and placed in a category of ancient mythology. Almost every historical culture has believed in a god of some sort. Eventually that god is forgotten and yet another god belief takes its place. Then another culture invents the new "one true god" and assumes it's for real this time (meet the new boss, same as the old boss).
The extraterrestrials must be laughing.
Quote from: SGOS on December 04, 2015, 07:58:25 AM
How is he going to judge 10 trillion people when he can't even stop a tidal wave from wiping out a village of innocents? And come to think of it, why did he create cancer if he's so benevolent? Why did he tell us he created the universe in 7 days? If we stop right there, these claims start to smell a little fishy, don't you think? If we go further and examine everything he's been reported to do, today's god starts to look like all the rest of the mythological gods that came before it. Gods are eventually discarded and placed in a category of ancient mythology. Almost every historical culture has believed in a god of some sort. Eventually that god is forgotten and yet another god belief takes its place. Then another culture invents the new "one true god" and assumes it's for real this time (meet the new boss, same as the old boss).
The extraterrestrials must be laughing.
The usual arguments; if God is good, then why is there so much suffering in the world? The answer is, quite simply, that the occurrence of tidal waves wiping out villages isn't random, it is the wrath of God and judgment upon sinners. How do you know that those who die in catastrophes are innocent? I can tell you right now that they aren't. They are guilty of sin, and the Bible tells us the wages of sin is death.
I will say that the children are an exception, and no doubt their deaths are fully tragic. What does the Bible tell us about the deaths of innocents?
Jeremiah 49:12
And this is what the LORD says: "If the innocent must suffer, how much more must you! You will not go unpunished! You must drink this cup of judgment!
Do not forget that Jesus Christ was innocent, yet He suffered a horrific death willingly. So to say that it is unfair, that God hasn't Himself drank the cup, would be wrong.
Tragic deaths of innocents serve a purpose - what that purpose is depends on the situation, but in those like you their deaths serve to blind you and make you question the existence of God. You assume these deaths are in vain, and your unbelief in the afterlife exacerbates your anger. But if, in the end, these innocents are resurrected and reconciled to God, then does that not change the entire picture?
It's good to remember these verses:
Revelation 21:4-5
"...and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away."
Quote from: MilesAbbott on December 04, 2015, 11:24:58 AM
The usual arguments; if God is good, then why is there so much suffering in the world?
Yes the usual arguments, but don't get bored. You will hear them again and again. Why? Because no theist has ever answered them adequately.
Case in point:
Quote from: MilesAbbott on December 04, 2015, 11:24:58 AM
The answer is, quite simply, that the occurrence of tidal waves wiping out villages isn't random, it is the wrath of God and judgment upon sinners.
See? Not adequately answered, unless you think everyone should accept unsupported claims. How do you know God sends them? How do you know why he sends them? The most common causes of tidal waves are earthquakes.
Quote from: MilesAbbott on December 04, 2015, 11:24:58 AM
How do you know that those who die in catastrophes are innocent? I can tell you right now that they aren't. They are guilty of sin, and the Bible tells us the wages of sin is death.
Yeah right, original sin. Another unsupported claim.
Quote from: MilesAbbott on December 04, 2015, 11:24:58 AM
Tragic deaths of innocents serve a purpose - what that purpose is depends on the situation,
Like whatever illogical apologetics you invent to justify killing innocents?
Quote from: MilesAbbott on December 04, 2015, 11:24:58 AM
You assume these deaths are in vain, and your unbelief in the afterlife exacerbates your anger. But if, in the end, these innocents are resurrected and reconciled to God, then does that not change the entire picture?
Yes, it would if you could prove any of your beliefs here are true. But all you've got is a house of cards built to justify a belief in a god who's existence you cannot prove. It's one big circular argument to justify a philosophy of superstition.
SOG, you write: (I'm not using the quote function here because it's tedious)
"See? Not adequately answered, unless you think everyone should accept unsupported claims. How do you know God sends them? How do you know why he sends them? The most common causes of tidal waves are earthquakes."
Yes, I'm about to quote Scripture here, but as my beliefs are based upon the Bible, which I believe to be true, then it is obviously relevant. If you don't believe it's true, then that is your problem. I am only providing "proof" here as according to my beliefs.
Isaiah 45:7
I am the LORD, and there is no other, The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these.
Colossians 1:17
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Your unbelief doesn't change the fact that according to the Bible, God creates tidal waves.
You then write:
Yeah right, original sin. Another unsupported claim.
It is supported by the Bible:
Romans 3:10
As the Scriptures say, "No one is righteous--not even one."
Does the state of humanity instill you with the notion that it's good? Humanity has proven over and over throughout history that it is thoroughly wicked. Even today, as far advanced as many claim is the human condition, we have ISIS abroad and at home. Are you saying you're righteous? If that is the case, you are wrong, even if you don't see it yourself. You might be a good person according to human standards, but only God's standards matter, and in that respect you, like everyone, fall far short.
You write:
Like whatever illogical apologetics you invent to justify killing innocents?
I'm not apologizing for anything. The deaths of innocents are a terrible thing, and perhaps the most difficult thing one must come to terms with in order to be reconciled to God. But the bottom line is that the Bible acknowledges that the innocent suffer, so to argue as though it doesn't address this is futile.
Life is not about pleasure, it is about learning the difference between good and evil, and experiencing it in such a way that we stop putting faith in ourselves and come to depend on God in all things. Good things will come eventually for all, but this period in our existences must entail suffering:
Acts 14:22
"...Through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God."
(http://i.imgur.com/kR3VptX.jpg)
You can't use the Bible to prove the Bible.
Hijiri, I never claimed to be offering proof. Perhaps you should've read my post more closely.
The proof you atheists desire will eventually be provided, but that proof can only be given to you by God. It is not your place to discover proof or anyone else's place to offer you proof, because:
Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.
Every one of us will be given faith, but each in his own order, as determined by God.
Presently, you don't believe because you don't want to believe. You prefer your sins to what God wants, which is of course natural and will only change when He determines you will change. So go on and continue in your foolishness, but you will reap what you've sown, be sure of it.
Quote from: MilesAbbott on December 04, 2015, 01:12:09 PMPresently, you don't believe because you don't want to believe.
I don't believe because I have no reason to believe. If you want to believe unproven gobldygook, then fine. But in the words of Galileo Galilei, "I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."
Quote from: MilesAbbott on December 04, 2015, 11:24:58 AM
The usual arguments; if God is good, then why is there so much suffering in the world? The answer is, quite simply, that the occurrence of tidal waves wiping out villages isn't random, it is the wrath of God and judgment upon sinners. How do you know that those who die in catastrophes are innocent? I can tell you right now that they aren't. They are guilty of sin, and the Bible tells us the wages of sin is death.
(https://fulcrumexpress.files.wordpress.com/2015/01/victimblame.jpg?w=300&h=200)
Quote from: MilesAbbott on December 04, 2015, 12:47:17 PM
Yes, I'm about to quote Scripture here, but as my beliefs are based upon the Bible, which I believe to be true, then it is obviously relevant. If you don't believe it's true, then that is your problem. I am only providing "proof" here as according to my beliefs.
First, you tend to make incorrect assumptions about how I feel about natural disasters to further your discussion.
Second, I understand your beliefs. I was a Lutheran once. And I understand you are arguing from the Bible. But that is irrelevant to this forum. I will accept your claim that you have a firm belief, but that is the only convincing argument you can make, because proof of a belief does not equate to proof of claims. This is always the failure of religious debates of the kind you are attempting here.
Third, this is not my problem. It's a problem of lacking evidence to convince others. If this is your objective (I'm not saying it is. I rather think you are simply testifying to having a firm belief), lack of evidence is a problem you have to solve. I no longer have a vested interest in religion. I'm just awaiting evidence.
Quote from: MilesAbbott on December 04, 2015, 11:24:58 AMThe usual arguments; if God is good, then why is there so much suffering in the world? The answer is, quite simply, that the occurrence of tidal waves wiping out villages isn't random, it is the wrath of God and judgment upon sinners. How do you know that those who die in catastrophes are innocent? I can tell you right now that they aren't. They are guilty of sin, and the Bible tells us the wages of sin is death.
Ah. So natural disasters are God's judgement against people who don't believe that he exists because he doesn't even try to prove that he exists for being unbelievers. Makes sense. Here's an idea. Instead of randomly killing a bunch of people who have no reason to choose Christianity over any other religion, why doesn't he speak out loud and remove all doubt? I'm sure a lot of people would gladly do whatever he says if he did that.
Quote from: MilesAbbott on December 04, 2015, 11:24:58 AMI will say that the children are an exception, and no doubt their deaths are fully tragic. What does the Bible tell us about the deaths of innocents?
Jeremiah 49:12
And this is what the LORD says: "If the innocent must suffer, how much more must you! You will not go unpunished! You must drink this cup of judgment!
Do not forget that Jesus Christ was innocent, yet He suffered a horrific death willingly. So to say that it is unfair, that God hasn't Himself drank the cup, would be wrong.
Tragic deaths of innocents serve a purpose - what that purpose is depends on the situation, but in those like you their deaths serve to blind you and make you question the existence of God. You assume these deaths are in vain, and your unbelief in the afterlife exacerbates your anger. But if, in the end, these innocents are resurrected and reconciled to God, then does that not change the entire picture?
It's good to remember these verses:
Revelation 21:4-5
"...and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away."
So God is too weak or incompetent to kill just the evil people who deserve it? He can't find any way to just target the ones he's really after? "They're going to Heaven anyway" is not an excuse for senseless violence. If he wanted to, he could protect and provide for the innocent children and adults, yet he decides to destroy them anyway.
And here's another thing, your logic is flawed. According to the Bible "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God," so no one is innocent. Adults and children alike are both sinners. What is the only path to Heaven? What the Bible says, and what I expect you would say yourself, is that faith in Christ is the only way to find salvation. Children who die without faith have no exception clause. But if you allow for children who are sinners to go to Heaven, why can't adults who have no faith go to Heaven? There are many people who are not Christian but are good people, who do more good for the world than the majority of Christians do. Either Christ is the only way to Heaven, or he's not the only way, and his standards are inconsistent and illogical.