This cannot be right. WTF?
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Posted from Facebook. I've got people explaining to me that illegal immigrants can mean children born elsewhere yet raised here in America and they should have same tuition rights as other Americans?
Not quite sure I'm following the logic of that because I'm fairly certain I am fucking STUCK on the word: "Illegal" .
WTF??
(oh and meanwhile.....no joke.......our daughter was just told No $$$ for her ARMY tuition that she spent the past 10 yrs earning. So as a family we're a bit confused - and teetering on outrage)
It only means that these kids who actually grew up in Colorado don't have to pay out of state tuition rates, as they do now.
Quote from: "WitchSabrina"This cannot be right. WTF?
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Posted from Facebook. I've got people explaining to me that illegal immigrants can mean children born elsewhere yet raised here in America and they should have same tuition rights as other Americans?
Not quite sure I'm following the logic of that because I'm fairly certain I am fucking STUCK on the word: "Illegal" .
WTF??
(oh and meanwhile.....no joke.......our daughter was just told No $$$ for her ARMY tuition that she spent the past 10 yrs earning. So as a family we're a bit confused - and teetering on outrage)
I get stuck on the illegal thing too. There might be something I don't understand here, but to attend a state college and pay in state tuition, even as a legal citizen of the US, I had to be a legal resident of the state. Oops, I may have answered your question while thinking this through out loud.
This is probably a bone thrown to the hispanic community, but when you think about it, it would be like someone coming to the US from Europe or anywhere else to attend a university. We gladly accept them, but they pay out of state tuition, just like I would as a resident of Illinois attending a college in Montana. On the surface it sounds like a law passed that doesn't change anything.
Your daughter is a different story. That pisses me off too. If she joined the army being told she would get help with college tuition, she should get that help. You don't promise things to people and then change that later. Yeah, our government probably has that power, and our politicians are a deceitful lot, although it sounds like something that will end up in court.
Edit: Oops again. I missed the part about lowering tuition rates for illegals. I don't know what that's about.
Pretty sure the military funding is due to the sequester. It affects both my sons. The other thing, no comment.
Many people don't understand what "illegal" means. I've heard many illegal aliens claim that since they've never committed any crime, they shouldn't be called illegal - not realizing, or refusing to accept, that just by being here they're committing a crime.
So, your parents brought you here illegally when you were 2, you grew up here went to school here, and now what? Send you "back" to a country that you don't even remember?
That's the law. I'm not arguing "correct" or "just", I'm arguing grammar.
The law can say anything is legal, (up to a point) An example, An old fat guy or even young one with big manboobs can go shirtless in any town in America.. Try that next nice warm day Bri and see how quick you either get locked up or ticketed. It's the ol double standard and whatever lawmakers say is legal is, well..legal. Does it make it right? No, but legal and right seldom dwell in the same house. The law is loaded with such irregularities.
On a side note, those looking for veteran help, tuition, housing, etc.. Go visit your local VOA chapter. They often have veteran liason people better equipped to help than the VA. VOA=Volunteers of America
So far the military funding due to sequester is affecting 3 out of 4 military branches, with the Navy not commenting.
Quote from: "Jmpty"So, your parents brought you here illegally when you were 2, you grew up here went to school here, and now what? Send you "back" to a country that you don't even remember?
This.
I grew up with Mexican "illegals" in both Central Texas and New Mexico... I would say at least 65% (in my experience, take that as you will) of them are FAR better students than legal residents of the U.S., and 95% of them work FAR harder than your other Americans (doing jobs we wouldn't take).
Additionally the ones that make it to college work harder than your average American as well and WANT to be there/get a degree. And if the government will let them they would love to live here, pay taxes and be a productive member of society. So I have zero problem with them getting benefits.
(I should say though, I also don't particularly think there should be laws regarding what country you can or cant live in... if you are willing to obey the law, speak the language at work, pay taxes and contribute to society you should be allowed to live wherever you please. We should keep track of who moves in/out, but we should never bar someone who is willing to add to our income and culture. National borders are becoming more and more a thing of the past, especially in a nation of immigrants.)
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As for the military, that sucks... but lets be honest... Americans and the government don't really give a fuck about the troops and this is nothing new. We have been fucking over our soldiers and vets for (I would wager) over a hundred years and it has just gotten worse and worse and worse.
Wasn't it Nixon who infamously said "It's not illegal when the President does it."?
I think all the political division up to this day is a result of him getting his hand caught in the cookie jar. You'd think that that was so long ago, but lots of dumbyas minions including Cheney were around politically back then and supporters of Nixon. I think the few old white men pulling the strings on that party have never gotten over the fact that their guy was a criminal.
Well here's how out-of-touch I am on this subject: I guess I assumed that a child growing up in America, attending American public schools, going to American doctors their whole lives at some point became AMERICAN ??? This HAS to be the reason we show So SO many 'illegals' in this country? W. T. F? That's crazy.
When a child grows up here why at some point are they not citizens?
Quote from: "WitchSabrina"Well here's how out-of-touch I am on this subject: I guess I assumed that a child growing up in America, attending American public schools, going to American doctors their whole lives at some point became AMERICAN ??? This HAS to be the reason we show So SO many 'illegals' in this country? W. T. F? That's crazy.
When a child grows up here why at some point are they not citizens?
Because it creates a situation where our immigration laws are meaningless. So a family of 3 skips the fence. 15 years later they are discovered as illegal immigrants. People get upset because it is unfair to send the child back to a country he knows nothing about and has no roots in. Then they get upset with the idea of sending the parents back because then the kid will be alone.
The effect is that by breaking the law they have also circumvented it. Because of our disgusting negligence regarding our own immigration laws people outside the US have come to believe that our immigration laws are largely toothless and therefore they have a good chance of being able to enter the country illegally with no ramifications. Many likely view being caught and deported as extremely bad luck.
Making exceptions based on an emotional response only makes the problem worse. In the end if they hadn't entered the country illegally in the first place then we wouldn't have to figure out what to do with them. I refuse to feel guilt over deporting people that broke the law the very instant they stepped foot in our country.
Quote from: "Nonsensei"Quote from: "WitchSabrina"Well here's how out-of-touch I am on this subject: I guess I assumed that a child growing up in America, attending American public schools, going to American doctors their whole lives at some point became AMERICAN ??? This HAS to be the reason we show So SO many 'illegals' in this country? W. T. F? That's crazy.
When a child grows up here why at some point are they not citizens?
Because it creates a situation where our immigration laws are meaningless. So a family of 3 skips the fence. 15 years later they are discovered as illegal immigrants. People get upset because it is unfair to send the child back to a country he knows nothing about and has no roots in. Then they get upset with the idea of sending the parents back because then the kid will be alone.
The effect is that by breaking the law they have also circumvented it. Because of our disgusting negligence regarding our own immigration laws people outside the US have come to believe that our immigration laws are largely toothless and therefore they have a good chance of being able to enter the country illegally with no ramifications. Many likely view being caught and deported as extremely bad luck.
Making exceptions based on an emotional response only makes the problem worse. In the end if they hadn't entered the country illegally in the first place then we wouldn't have to figure out what to do with them. I refuse to feel guilt over deporting people that broke the law the very instant they stepped foot in our country.
You make a lot of sense. Apparently, this whole uproar (pic I posted) is over whats called "the Dream Act". Where children and young adults are (somewhat) promised education here in the states.
Well, never let it be said that I'd deny anyone education --- BUT --- I sure don't think my daughter should lose her tuition money from the ARMY while we agree - via Dream Act - to college educate **illegals**.
Sorry.....but if kids grow up here then they should be citizens and we can call them something ELSE and not illegal. And Sorry.... but offering our military higher education should come first.
or...... am I crazy?
QuoteAnd Sorry.... but offering our military higher education should come first.
Why? This comment seems completely out of place from the rest of the post. I could understand "our own people", but "the military"?
As for feeling guilt for people who broke the law; if the alternative to breaking the law would be even worse for them
and they're not really hurting anyone all too much, I can feel their pain and understand their reasoning, and realise that there might be something wrong with the law.
Impractical, impartial and ineffective laws don't deserve respect in the first place, and certainly don't deserve more respect than other human beings. Especially when its a relative who wasn't even a participant in the "crime" who suffers the most from the punishment (besides hurting ourself).
Quote from: "Plu"QuoteAnd Sorry.... but offering our military higher education should come first.
Why? This comment seems completely out of place from the rest of the post. I could understand "our own people", but "the military"?
As for feeling guilt for people who broke the law; if the alternative to breaking the law would be even worse for them and they're not really hurting anyone all too much, I can feel their pain and understand their reasoning, and realise that there might be something wrong with the law.
Why should our service men and women deserve the college tuition they were promised??
Did you just ask that?
No I asked "why should top priority go to the education of the military".
If you meant "top priority should go to those who were previously promised tuition, which includes the military", that makes a lot more sense.
Quote from: "WitchSabrina"Well, never let it be said that I'd deny anyone education --- BUT --- I sure don't think my daughter should lose her tuition money from the ARMY while we agree - via Dream Act - to college educate **illegals**.
Sorry.....but if kids grow up here then they should be citizens and we can call them something ELSE and not illegal. And Sorry.... but offering our military higher education should come first.
or...... am I crazy?
No, you are not crazy. You are experiencing betrayal.
There seems to be a tie-in here with letting the kids of immigrants go to school and defense budget cuts for veterans and frankly I don't see the knot...or t?e string for that matter. It's like saying Uncle Sugar paid one federal clerk at social security an extra DOLLAR and now look at it.. My bridge to nowhere won't get built. It's not fair!
This is policy wonk kabooky, but I don't see any nefarious attempts to deprive veterans education just to send illegal immigrants to school.'
Quote from: "Plu"QuoteAnd Sorry.... but offering our military higher education should come first.
Why? This comment seems completely out of place from the rest of the post. I could understand "our own people", but "the military"?
As for feeling guilt for people who broke the law; if the alternative to breaking the law would be even worse for them and they're not really hurting anyone all too much, I can feel their pain and understand their reasoning, and realise that there might be something wrong with the law.
Well I also agree that our military personnel should be prioritized. Many people enter the service counting on the he military to pay their tuition. Its part of the deal. A deal that has people risking their lives in the service of our country. It really is quite hard to swallow that they are denied while people who aren't even citizens are financed.
As to your second point, I am not certain why I or the law should be required to show regard for illegal immigrants. The fact is that they use public services and don't pay taxes. That harms every taxpayer so their presence is hardly innocuous.
The law serves society above the individual, so while I recognize the personal tragedy of deportation I do not feel the law should be changed to accommodate those individuals at the expense of society.
Quote from: "Plu"No I asked "why should top priority go to the education of the military".
If you meant "top priority should go to those who were previously promised tuition, which includes the military", that makes a lot more sense.
yes- sorry.
There really is NO link, no tie to these two situations other than bad timing:
Giving illegal immigrants higher education opportunities
and
stripping our service men and women of their PROMISED higher education opportunities.
It's BAD timing. What's worse is while the bill passed to allow illegal immigrants this educational opportunity NO ONE (not a single congressman) was discussing why our military were just stripped their tuition promises (???)
So........
yeah that can't sit right with me.
Now....... do I deny ANYone higher education? No. Education is key.
(1) I dont think kids who grow up here their whole lives should be f*ing illegals ??? I dont get that.
(2) I dont think it's right to GIVE illegal non-citizens educational rights while refusing those who keep those illegals safe day in and day out. That is some straight up Bullshit.
(3) I dont see congress with ONE solution in sight - other than educating what they call illegals???
what's wrong with this picture.............seriously???
straight up bullshit and makes my head hurt.
Also........ I can't talk about this on FB anymore for people who are FAR more bleeding heart liberal than me are telling me to shove it OR bad-ass republicans are yelping on my page 'Well YOU voted for this administration"...
which makes NO sense.
That's the new answer now - for everything we might not like
"well you voted for this administration" as if Obama is a KING and lays down law minus congress.
What. The. Fuck ???
*should turn off computer.........too much stoooopid for one morning*
Bri, you've been around long enough to know Uncle Sugar fucks things up on a regular basis and is, for the most part an equal opportunity fuckor.. I could spend the next five years doing nothing but posting absurdities in the law and by the end of that five years another eight years of absurdity will have become law.
The best thing to do it say, 'fuck facebook' and the dumb shit that seems to coat it like a film of sleeze scraped off the bathroom floor at a dirty bookstore and concentrate on raising hell with Uncle Sugar.. ;-)
QuoteAs to your second point, I am not certain why I or the law should be required to show regard for illegal immigrants. The fact is that they use public services and don't pay taxes. That harms every taxpayer so their presence is hardly innocuous.
This is a cyclical argument. The reason they don't pay taxes, is because they're illegal. If you'd allow them to stay legally, they'd start paying taxes, thus removing this problem.
@Sabrina, I agree with your assessment, then. I suppose the first one was just worded a bit poorly. It is unfair to take away something you promised people only to give it others.
Quote from: "Plu"QuoteAs to your second point, I am not certain why I or the law should be required to show regard for illegal immigrants. The fact is that they use public services and don't pay taxes. That harms every taxpayer so their presence is hardly innocuous.
This is a cyclical argument. The reason they don't pay taxes, is because they're illegal. If you'd allow them to stay legally, they'd start paying taxes, thus removing this problem.
@Sabrina, I agree with your assessment, then. I suppose the first one was just worded a bit poorly. It is unfair to take away something you promised people only to give it others.
yes and yes.
And APA - yes.
8-[
Quote from: "Nonsensei"Quote from: "Plu"QuoteAnd Sorry.... but offering our military higher education should come first.
Why? This comment seems completely out of place from the rest of the post. I could understand "our own people", but "the military"?
As for feeling guilt for people who broke the law; if the alternative to breaking the law would be even worse for them and they're not really hurting anyone all too much, I can feel their pain and understand their reasoning, and realise that there might be something wrong with the law.
Well I also agree that our military personnel should be prioritized. Many people enter the service counting on the he military to pay their tuition. Its part of the deal. A deal that has people risking their lives in the service of our country. It really is quite hard to swallow that they are denied while people who aren't even citizens are financed.
As to your second point, I am not certain why I or the law should be required to show regard for illegal immigrants. The fact is that they use public services and don't pay taxes. That harms every taxpayer so their presence is hardly innocuous.
The law serves society above the individual, so while I recognize the personal tragedy of deportation I do not feel the law should be changed to accommodate those individuals at the expense of society.
Actually, many of them work and pay taxes using a fake SSN. Which means they pay payroll tax, Medicare, and Social Security, with no chance of ever using those benefits.
As a veteran, I'm not pleased that they suspended tuition assistance, but it is indeed only suspended, until they resolve this sequester business. The only cost involved with the Dream Act, is that there will be more students requesting aid, and in Colorado, the people that actually live there will be charged accordingly. It's not like they're giving them special treatment, or giving them money.
thanks Jumpty - thats truly helpful. :yawinkle:
I try, Sabrina, I try. :wink:
I find the ' using a fake SSN' disturbing.