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News & General Discussion => News Stories and Current Events => Topic started by: Rin Hato on March 14, 2013, 01:53:57 AM

Title: Parents of trans* 1st-grader file discrimination complaint
Post by: Rin Hato on March 14, 2013, 01:53:57 AM
Thought I'd mix the topic matter up a little :P

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/02/27/us/co ... index.html (http://edition.cnn.com/2013/02/27/us/colorado-transgender-girl-school/index.html)

Quote
A transgender rights group announced Wednesday that it has filed a discrimination complaint in Colorado on behalf of a first-grader who was born a boy but identifies as a girl.

The filing stems from a decision announced last December by officials at Fountain-Fort Carson School District that Coy Mathis could no longer use the girls' bathroom at Eagleside Elementary.

Mother Kathryn Mathis said she and her husband were shocked.

"We were very confused because everything was going so well, and they had been so accepting, and all of a sudden it changed and it was very confusing and very upsetting because we knew that, by doing that, she was going to go back to being unhappy," she told CNN. "It was going to set her up for a lot of bad things."

Coy was born with male sex organs but has identified as female since she could express herself, her mother said. The child had attended classes during her kindergarten year with no problems and no complaints from anyone at the school, Mathis told reporters at the Colorado Capitol in Denver,

Quote
Attorney Michael Silverman of the Transgender Legal Defense and Education Fund, which is representing Coy, said the complaint -- which was filed with the Colorado Civil Rights Division -- is intended to have an impact beyond a single family or school.

"For many transgender people, discrimination is a daily part of life. Unfortunately for Coy, it has started very early," he said, adding that the complaint is a "test of Colorado's Anti-Discrimination Act."

Quote
For most of the past year, Coy has dressed as a girl.

Coy's passport and state-issued identification recognize her as female.

I don't know about you, but this to me sounds like a clear-cut case of discrimination. Coy is even legally recognised as a girl, so why on Earth should she not be allowed access to the girl's bathrooms?

And the "but she has male genitals, think about all the 'real' girls in the bathroom, what will they think" angle? As far as I remember, you don't go to the toilet in full view of others, so what's the problem?

Unless I'm missing something, this all boils down to them saying that "it's weird and so we won't allow her to use the correct bathrooms" and as far as I know you can't discriminate against someone because they don't conform to your idea of what's normal.

The idea that it should all be okay because she can still use the neutral staff bathrooms is just infuriating.

Thoughts?
Title:
Post by: Colanth on March 14, 2013, 07:44:32 PM
1) I think there's another thread about Coy's situation.

2) The people protesting this are morons.  Until we can reprogram people's minds, people are just going to have to get used to transgenderism.  (And, considering the age of the kids "affected", the parents are missing a huge teaching moment.)

Hey - isn't it their god that created transgenderism?  Are they claiming that God is wrong?
Title: Re: Parents of trans* 1st-grader file discrimination complai
Post by: Rin Hato on March 14, 2013, 09:17:20 PM
Is there?

Sorry, I didn't know. Is it still active or has it died?
Title: Re: Parents of trans* 1st-grader file discrimination complai
Post by: AllPurposeAtheist on March 14, 2013, 09:39:57 PM
Maybe I'm out of the loop here, but a TG 5 yr old? Really? How does anyone really know and did the parents just merely neglect to tell this kid that he is really a boy?
I have to plead ignorance here because I honestly don't know, but I can certainly see why others do not see it as discrimination, but rather the parents as a bit loopy.
Title:
Post by: Colanth on March 14, 2013, 09:55:19 PM
From what I know, Marty, and I'll defer to our resident experts on this one, children usually self-identify by gender by the age of 5.  That's both from reading and from the transgendered people I've had the pleasure of knowing.  I sure knew I was a boy and the girl who gave me my first kiss (at the age of 3) was a girl before I was 5.
Title: Re: Parents of trans* 1st-grader file discrimination complai
Post by: AllPurposeAtheist on March 14, 2013, 10:31:36 PM
I think 5 is still a bit early to slap the transgender label on a kid. What if he grows up to be a stud NFL linebacker with 5 hot cheerleader gf's, retires and becomes a porn star?
Title: Re: Parents of trans* 1st-grader file discrimination complai
Post by: SvZurich on March 14, 2013, 11:30:21 PM
Quote from: "AllPurposeAtheist"
Maybe I'm out of the loop here, but a TG 5 yr old? Really? How does anyone really know and did the parents just merely neglect to tell this kid that he is really a boy?
I have to plead ignorance here because I honestly don't know, but I can certainly see why others do not see it as discrimination, but rather the parents as a bit loopy.
Most transpeople know who they are around 3-4 years old.  It's obvious to parents who actually pay attention to and listen to their children.  Most parents try to "beat it out of them for their own good".
Title: Re: Parents of trans* 1st-grader file discrimination complai
Post by: wolf39us on March 14, 2013, 11:43:02 PM
Right but where does the line get drawn?  If you're a boy, you're a boy.  The girls bathroom is for females, the boys bathroom is for males.

Allowing this would break the separation of bathrooms...  May as well make unisex everything!  There'd literally be no point in separating them.
Title: Re: Parents of trans* 1st-grader file discrimination complai
Post by: AllPurposeAtheist on March 14, 2013, 11:47:40 PM
Quote from: "SvZurich"
Quote from: "AllPurposeAtheist"
Maybe I'm out of the loop here, but a TG 5 yr old? Really? How does anyone really know and did the parents just merely neglect to tell this kid that he is really a boy?
I have to plead ignorance here because I honestly don't know, but I can certainly see why others do not see it as discrimination, but rather the parents as a bit loopy.
Most transpeople know who they are around 3-4 years old.  It's obvious to parents who actually pay attention to and listen to their children.  Most parents try to "beat it out of them for their own good".
So if Johnny likes playing with Barbies dress him up in satin and lace? There's far to much grey area to go making kids dress like the opposite sex at 5. I note the use of 'most', not all and definitely not all parents beat their kids.
That said, there's also a heavy burden on kids at this age and it seems far to easy of an out for parents to just let the child decide at 5..
Title: Re: Parents of trans* 1st-grader file discrimination complai
Post by: SvZurich on March 15, 2013, 12:34:32 AM
Quote from: "wolf39us"
Right but where does the line get drawn?  If you're a boy, you're a boy.  The girls bathroom is for females, the boys bathroom is for males.

Allowing this would break the separation of bathrooms...  May as well make unisex everything!  There'd literally be no point in separating them.
Actually, no.

Allowing this would be following the state law.  Colorado state law allows people to use the facilities that they identify as regardless of the body's physical parts.

And transsexual people argue correctly that if you are classified a boy and identify as a girl, you are a girl and must correct the body.  If you are classified a girl and identify as a boy, you are a boy and must correct the body.  The transsexual brain is wired almost identically to the normal brain of someone of the opposite physical sex.
Title: Re: Parents of trans* 1st-grader file discrimination complai
Post by: Rin Hato on March 15, 2013, 12:44:04 AM
It's hard to understand what it's like being trans if you're not trans yourself.

I'm no expert on the relationship between Coy and her parents (and neither are you) but I would guess that Coy told her parents that she was a she, and not a he. I commend her parents for not discouraging her.

Being trans isn't something as simple as " I play with girls toys," it's identifying as the opposite/another gender that you were assigned at birth. What do you suggest? Telling the child that they're wrong and they're not a girl/boy, then waiting for a few years before actually believing them?

What would I do if I were to constantly say that you're a girl and not a boy, deride you for being so adamant that you're a boy? Bully you for it?

No trans person ever "decides" that they are trans. They know it, deep down somewhere.
Title:
Post by: SvZurich on March 15, 2013, 01:07:19 AM
That's the #1 reason why so many transpeople commit suicide.  A lifetime of being bullied to conform to a lie you can't believe, being made to feel worthless, and the threat of physical violence if you come out.  Suicide appears to be a smart decision.  They try their best to cope, and eventually they no longer can.  It's either transition or die.
Title: Re: Parents of trans* 1st-grader file discrimination complai
Post by: Rin Hato on March 15, 2013, 01:25:45 AM
Exactly.

Telling Coy that she's a boy and is "just going through a phase" or is "confused" will only do harm.

Related: I'm infuriated by those who think HRT, hair removal, sex reassignment surgery etc are elective surgeries. They're not, they're necessary. Though not for all people, of course.

Transition is generally the only "cure."
Title:
Post by: SvZurich on March 15, 2013, 01:35:05 AM
Transition is also best when started young.  It's when one is forced through the wrong puberty that they gain features that will haunt them throughout their transition.

For FTMs, a female puberty forces upon them breasts to remove, shorter heights, and wider hips.  Much of that is hidden by taking testosterone.

For MTFs, a male puberty forces upon them height, broader shoulders, larger hands and feet, deep voices, possible adam's apples, wider jaws and chins, protruding brows, body hair, facial hair, and often male pattern baldness.  Then they are forced to spend hundreds to thousands of hours on electrolysis at great expense and pain, facial feminization surgeries, possible electro on chest and belly, wigs, voice training therapy, and more.

Just giving them HRT early on, and appropriate blockers, can prevent all of that and allow them to look and pass perfectly as the sex they want to be.  Just give them only SRS and they win.

Instead, by being bullied to conform to society's wishes, and forced to go through the wrong puberty, they will be easier to identify as trans, unhappier, and be forced to spend a lot of time and money fixing as much of the unwanted changes as they can.  They'll even be called selfish for transitioning, all because they want to be normal like everyone else by being aligned in body and mind, and instead others seek to prevent them from enjoying the same rights that they themselves have.
Title: Re: Parents of trans* 1st-grader file discrimination complai
Post by: Rin Hato on March 15, 2013, 01:52:36 AM
It's horrible. Absolutely horrible.

If only there was that One Pill that did it all by magic, right? Or better yet, it wasn't possible to be trans; everyone was born with the right body for their head.

Though if that were the case, what would a gender-fluid person look like? Or a person who doesn't identify with either of the genders we have defined for ourselves?

Anyway, the sooner worldwide society embraces the T on the end of LGBT as much as some societies have embraced the rest, the better.
Title:
Post by: SvZurich on March 15, 2013, 02:40:16 AM
Very true, Rin.  Sadly, cispeople can never understand transpeople.  Too much privilege to be able to relate.  

Let me show you an example of GLB people hating on T people.  This following hate site is run by RadFems, most of whom are lesbians.  I learned of this site when they attacked a friend of mine who often writes on HuffPo.  Brynn works hard for GLBT rights, and this site hates on her.  Disgusting!  I hate seeing GLBs on the same side of issues as the KKK and Southern Baptists.

http://pretendbians.com/ (http://pretendbians.com/)
Title: Re:
Post by: StupidWiz on March 15, 2013, 03:53:51 AM
Quote from: "SvZurich"
Very true, Rin.  Sadly, cispeople can never understand transpeople.  Too much privilege to be able to relate.  

Let me show you an example of GLB people hating on T people.  This following hate site is run by RadFems, most of whom are lesbians.  I learned of this site when they attacked a friend of mine who often writes on HuffPo.  Brynn works hard for GLBT rights, and this site hates on her.  Disgusting!  I hate seeing GLBs on the same side of issues as the KKK and Southern Baptists.

http://pretendbians.com/ (http://pretendbians.com/)
Yup, I notice that as well. It's just sad that some GLBT claim to fight for equality yet feel disgusted by transpeople. It's like, a bitter irony, isn't it? :(
Title: Re: Parents of trans* 1st-grader file discrimination complai
Post by: wolf39us on March 15, 2013, 10:52:17 AM
I just don't get the arguments put forth.  I can think I'm black all day long but the reality is that I'm white.  I can think I'm a squirrel all day long but the reality is that I'm human.

Thinking something that you're not does not change reality.  If you're brain is any bit logical, you can only conform to reality.  Oh my, I have a dick... By definition I'm a male!
Title:
Post by: Plu on March 15, 2013, 10:53:31 AM
I suppose you think gay people are just pretending to be something they're not as well?
Title: Re: Parents of trans* 1st-grader file discrimination complai
Post by: wolf39us on March 15, 2013, 10:58:43 AM
No, that's not what I said.  Sexual preference and gender identity are completely different.  Whether you like girls, boys or both is up to you.  Whether you're a female or male is NOT.

No matter what physical alterations you are put through, you will never be the opposing sex... Ever
Title:
Post by: Plu on March 15, 2013, 11:03:29 AM
That doesn't make sense. If no amount of physical alteration can change your gender, that means it's in your head. That means that if in your head you're a woman, no matter what physical parts you have, you're a woman. Even with a penis. Since it's already shown that transgenders have the brain of someone of the other sex, that means they were born the sex they feel like, not the one they have.

If your gender were physical, you would be able to become a woman by getting yourself altered.

Your position seems a bit inconsistent with itself.
Title: Re: Parents of trans* 1st-grader file discrimination complai
Post by: wolf39us on March 15, 2013, 11:14:04 AM
Not inconsistent.

Down to biology... Males are XY females are XX.  Your body is formed based on these chromosomes.  

You are either XY or XX.  

Biologically you are one or the other.
Title:
Post by: Plu on March 15, 2013, 11:16:14 AM
Well apparently it's a buggy process, because some people are formed with XX bodies and XY brains, or the other way around.

But you're saying that the best outcome is people being miserable their whole life because their brain and their DNA don't match in terms of gender?
Title:
Post by: SvZurich on March 15, 2013, 11:18:38 AM
Wolf, I am sorry to tell you this, pilgrim, but you are wrong.  You're views are in step with the understanding of the issue circa 1973.  We've had 4 decades of scientific research since.

TS brains are hardwired and cannot be altered without destroying the person.  Constant dissonance between a brain that says you are one sex and a body that says you are the other can be debilitating.  The body can be changed, but the brain cannot be changed.  When society (which you are a part of) refuses to recognize trans people as who they are and instead seeks to pigeonhole them, it is adding to their distress.  Attitudes like yours are why the legal and medical system in the US have been stacked against trans people, but that is changing.  Education is key.  Do consider looking into this issue and putting actual time into your research.  Go out and meet some trans people.  They are just like us.  They have hopes, dreams, fears, depression, joy, and love.

As I said, cis people cannot truly understand their privilege, but cis people can be allies.  You are a cis person.  Cis means brain and body were born in alignment.  If you make the time to educate yourself, you can become an ally and help make society more fair for all.

Kimmie, preparing to write up an essay on the topic of Sexism/Heterosexism for my Social Justice reading for this week.
Title: Re: Parents of trans* 1st-grader file discrimination complai
Post by: SvZurich on March 15, 2013, 11:22:31 AM
Quote from: "wolf39us"
Not inconsistent.

Down to biology... Males are XY females are XX.  Your body is formed based on these chromosomes.  

You are either XY or XX.  

Biologically you are one or the other.
Wrong, this issue is much more complex than your simplification.  Quite a few tested females are XY, and they have androgen insensitivity syndrome.  Their bodies did not respond to androgens like testosterone, so the androgens levels got high and converted to estrogen which they did respond to.  Unless tested, they would never know.

And there are men who are XX.  Too much androgen exposure in the womb mutated them into a male form.  It's those same hormones that shape the brain.

Also you forget the people with XXXY, XXY, and other variants.  Plus the people who are mosaics like different chromosomes for each set of cells from their bodies.

Science has learned a lot about this.  I invite you to research it honestly.
Title: Re: Parents of trans* 1st-grader file discrimination complai
Post by: wolf39us on March 15, 2013, 11:26:31 AM
I haven't forgotten about the variations of chromosomes leading to issues.  I must go now, I'll talk to you guys later
Title:
Post by: SvZurich on March 15, 2013, 11:38:19 AM
Take care pilgrim.  :)
Title: Re: Parents of trans* 1st-grader file discrimination complai
Post by: _Xenu_ on March 15, 2013, 11:44:47 AM
Quote from: "wolf39us"
I just don't get the arguments put forth.  I can think I'm black all day long but the reality is that I'm white.  I can think I'm a squirrel all day long but the reality is that I'm human.

Thinking something that you're not does not change reality.  If you're brain is any bit logical, you can only conform to reality.  Oh my, I have a dick... By definition I'm a male!
I would agree with you but one thing: The brains of trans people closely mirror the gender they wish to embrace.
Title:
Post by: SvZurich on March 15, 2013, 11:49:48 AM
And they mirror the brains of the "opposite sex" due to the womb's hormonal bath.  Too many androgens can make a "girl" have a male brain, too much estrogen can make a "boy" have a female brain.  That IS reality.
Title: Re: Parents of trans* 1st-grader file discrimination complai
Post by: Bibliofagus on March 15, 2013, 12:00:34 PM
Quote from: "wolf39us"
I just don't get the arguments put forth.  I can think I'm black all day long but the reality is that I'm white.  I can think I'm a squirrel all day long but the reality is that I'm human.

Thinking something that you're not does not change reality.  If you're brain is any bit logical, you can only conform to reality.  Oh my, I have a dick... By definition I'm a male!

It doesn't work like that for these people. They look down, see a dick and think something is wrong
I'm married to a woman who feels this way. (She feels she is a man, or, more accurately: her gender is essentially male). With her 16 years now. It's not a delusion, or something she can reason against. It's just the way it is.
Title:
Post by: Colanth on March 15, 2013, 01:06:49 PM
We can now do a little something to help Coy.  There's a petition at https://www.change.org/petitions/our-tr ... riminating (https://www.change.org/petitions/our-transgender-daughter-is-just-another-girl-tell-her-school-to-stop-discriminating)
Title: Re: Parents of trans* 1st-grader file discrimination complai
Post by: SvZurich on March 15, 2013, 01:11:44 PM
I like coming across petitions that I have already signed.  :D

Bib, I hope that you can adjust if your wife does need to transition.  I know two military MTF/FTM couples, one where both are whole, and one where both are in transition but stymied as the MTF spouse is still active duty and limited in what she can do thanks to military bigotry and forced discharge if outed.

If you need to talk with anyone, I can put you in touch with them and make myself available.
Title: Re: Parents of trans* 1st-grader file discrimination complai
Post by: Rin Hato on March 15, 2013, 01:28:51 PM
Quote from: "wolf39us"
I just don't get the arguments put forth.  I can think I'm black all day long but the reality is that I'm white.  I can think I'm a squirrel all day long but the reality is that I'm human.

Thinking something that you're not does not change reality.  If you're brain is any bit logical, you can only conform to reality.  Oh my, I have a dick... By definition I'm a male!
Gender isn't defined by sex characteristics, it's defined by, well, how the person thinks, acts, identifies.

If you identify as a girl, and have a girl's body, you're a girl, right? So why not the same for someone who identifies as a girl, but has a guy's body? Is that person a "fake" girl, who's just pretending? Does how the person actually feels mean nothing? You're a guy or a girl, and that's it?

Gender is apart from sex, they're separate. He, she, her, him, they're pronouns tied to gender. "Girl in a guy's body," however cliched, is an accurate term.
Title:
Post by: Bibliofagus on March 15, 2013, 02:48:53 PM
Thank you Kimmie.

It probably won't be nessecary. She's not planning to change. It's complicated for her, she does want to have kids and be a mother for instance. And in more ways she has both genders.
She often dresses like a male, and I have no problems with that.
I love her.
Title:
Post by: SvZurich on March 15, 2013, 03:05:11 PM
Love is what matter, Bib, and you are welcome.  My ear is available to you no matter what.  :)
Title: Re:
Post by: StupidWiz on March 15, 2013, 08:00:36 PM
Quote from: "Bibliofagus"
Thank you Kimmie.

It probably won't be nessecary. She's not planning to change. It's complicated for her, she does want to have kids and be a mother for instance. And in more ways she has both genders.
She often dresses like a male, and I have no problems with that.
I love her.
You're a good man, Biblio. :)
Title: Re: Re:
Post by: SvZurich on March 15, 2013, 08:55:52 PM
Quote from: "StupidWiz"
You're a good man, Biblio. :)
Seconded.  :)
Title:
Post by: Rin Hato on March 16, 2013, 01:07:48 AM
Thirded :D
Title: Re: Parents of trans* 1st-grader file discrimination complai
Post by: Atheon on March 16, 2013, 04:19:43 AM
I'm all in favor of equality for transgendered people, and I realize that many transgendered people know from early childhood what sex they identify as. But there are sure to be plenty of kids who change their mind about their gender identity as they grow older.

1st grade is way too young to be certain. Kids are confused about a hell of a lot of things at that age. They go through phases.
Title:
Post by: SvZurich on March 16, 2013, 04:31:09 AM
Atheon, I disagree.  6 years old is old enough for most trans people to know for certain.  It's hardwired in.  I never saw boys insisting they were girls, or girls insisting they were boys when growing up.  Only trans children question that fact.
Title: Re: Parents of trans* 1st-grader file discrimination complai
Post by: Colanth on March 16, 2013, 10:44:09 PM
Quote from: "Atheon"
I'm all in favor of equality for transgendered people, and I realize that many transgendered people know from early childhood what sex they identify as. But there are sure to be plenty of kids who change their mind about their gender identity
Not being transgendered myself, I can't be sure, but I don't think it's a matter of making up one's mind.  A trans child probably knows his or her gender identity as well as a non-trans child.  Your apparent view of transgenderism sounds like the old "choose to be gay" argument.  Maybe I'm reading you wrong.