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http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/06/09/world/migrants-global-refugee-crisis-mediterranean-ukraine-syria-rohingya-malaysia-iraq.html?_r=0

QuoteMasses of migrants and refugees, many from Syria, Afghanistan and Kosovo, have been overwhelming border authorities in several Balkan countries as they try to reach Western Europe. The migrants travel in groups of just a few to dozens, moving north by bus, train, taxi or van. Serbian news media reported that some 70 buses of migrants entered the capital, Belgrade, on Sunday. Migrants in Macedonia told reporters that they were especially eager to move after Hungary said it planned to complete a fence along its 109-mile border with Serbia by Monday. (PUBLISHED AUG. 26)


TAXING THE NEIGHBORS

Years of violence in Iraq and Syria have stretched the capacities of neighboring countries to accommodate the displaced. In Jordan, unemployment has almost doubled since 2011 in areas with high concentrations of refugees, according to a recent International Labor Organization study. Lebanon began to require visas from Syrians in January. Refugees now make up about 20 percent of Lebanon’s population. In March, Turkey announced it would close the two remaining border gates with Syria. UPDATED AUGUST 26


DIVISION OVER HOW TO RESPOND

In May, European leaders said they would form a naval force based in Italy to combat people-smuggling. The European Commission also appealed to the bloc’s member states to accept quotas of migrants to relieve the burden on southern states, like Italy and Greece, which are the main landing points. Poverty and war in places like Libya, South Sudan, Eritrea and Nigeria are driving migrants to make the perilous journey across the Mediterranean Sea. UPDATED JULY 1


CRIPPLED ECONOMY

Hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians have fled to Russia. But European Union countries, like Poland, Germany and Italy, which are among the top destinations for asylum seekers, have rejected most applications from Ukrainians. Less than a third of the $316 million needed in 2015 for the United Nations’ humanitarian response has been raised so far. The conflict was particularly damaging to Ukraine’s economy, which is expected to shrink 9 percent by the end of the year. UPDATED JULY 1

You ain't seen nothin' yet. Population displaced by conflicts- the word conflict is heavily used. Now throw in global warming as a root cause.

Fascism is rising in Germany in East Germany and now other areas, people concerned about the influx of refugees. Strong right wing groups are on the rise in many countries, including Greece and England.

With a population now approaching 8 billion, a population world wide that is aging- Japan has several thousand people more than 100 years old- we now have more elderly people by percentage than at any time history.

Fascism will be on every election ticket into the future. It will get worse and it will lead to major conflicts the world over, bank on it.

Quote from: stromboli on September 01, 2015, 11:58:48 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/06/09/world/migrants-global-refugee-crisis-mediterranean-ukraine-syria-rohingya-malaysia-iraq.html?_r=0


You ain't seen nothin' yet. Population displaced by conflicts- the word conflict is heavily used. Now throw in global warming as a root cause.

Fascism is rising in Germany in East Germany and now other areas, people concerned about the influx of refugees. Strong right wing groups are on the rise in many countries, including Greece and England.

With a population now approaching 8 billion, a population world wide that is aging- Japan has several thousand people more than 100 years old- we now have more elderly people by percentage than at any time history.

Fascism will be on every election ticket into the future. It will get worse and it will lead to major conflicts the world over, bank on it.

If I were younger this would frighten me to no end.  I think you are correct.  I do fear for my children and especially for my grandchildren. 

The situation is very bad and will get much more worse.

We are in it too. There are nearly 2 million refugess in the country and people are getting pretty sharp against it after they get involved some violent crimes, rape and theft.

Also, has anyone seen Kiev in the news? Protestors threw a grenade to cops and used molotfs. Death toll.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on September 01, 2015, 01:19:19 PM
The situation is very bad and will get much more worse.

We are in it too. There are nearly 2 million refugess in the country and people are getting pretty sharp against it after they get involved some violent crimes, rape and theft.

Also, has anyone seen Kiev in the news? Protestors threw a grenade to cops and used molotfs. Death toll.

I feel your pain, Shoe. I'm the lucky one on here; very secure in my finances, living in the Rocky Mountains and well protected in every sense. Feel bad for those living in troublesome situations.

I hate to say it, but this is all by design.  US foreign policy dictates perpetual war with never ending profit and the results are mass migration of the victims of war and climate change.  Tossed in with it the never ending propaganda about immigrants taking jobs and islamaphobia and the right wing is assured power. On top of that China's economy is going to shit and dragging everyone else with it.. Outlook: Not so peachy.

Fascism in Germany again, as it was aired clear enough in their hypocritical showdown with Greece - now isn't that special! Now the American Cheneyites will take us to war with the Krauts so that we can take over their car production, and you know that will not be good for the value of any new Mercedes or BMW. But at least we'll knock back the fascists, because we Americans ain't no damned godless fascists - nonononoooo, we are capitalists, and we're with God!

You will be assimilated!  :axe: :borg: :axe:

Quote from: AllPurposeAtheist on September 01, 2015, 06:58:18 PM
I hate to say it, but this is all by design.  US foreign policy dictates perpetual war with never ending profit and the results are mass migration of the victims of war and climate change.  Tossed in with it the never ending propaganda about immigrants taking jobs and islamaphobia and the right wing is assured power. On top of that China's economy is going to shit and dragging everyone else with it.. Outlook: Not so peachy.

must say, seeing the current mounting situations we have in the world today, it makes me all the more glad I abandoned the idea of an afterlife, and once i'm dead I won't have to consciously think about how the world is going to shit.

EU are a bunch of cunts.

This is only the beginning. EU is already being swamped by refugees and it will continue and increase, not abate. The hard cold fact is that any country can only absorb so many refugees. And if you read the comments, most of these are young men. Many no doubt are fathers, and if they get established they will bring their families with them. The problem will only compound itself. The right wing will become stronger and the outcome one way or another isn't going to be pretty.

Welcome to the future, y'all. PR126 ought to be wading in any time now.....

QuotePR126 ought to be wading in any time now.....

Nope. I am over 70, and in bad health. Past caring.
It Is very likely that I won't be around when the great culling of the herd begins.

Too bad, PR. You always keep the discussion lively. In any case I'm in a similar boat. My time is now more occupied caring for my wife than much else, so the forum is of lesser importance. And I'm 66.

You realise that these people are running for their lives, right? Every day they die on the way. What would you do? If they stay, they will have to support one of the sides. And when it comes to it, you blame those people for staying and fighting for either side. They can't win, can they? Because they do not count as humans after all.

Fuck the area as much as you can, then go "oh end is nigh! we are over run!"

Too bad they cannot run away to live in the US.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on September 02, 2015, 04:02:08 AM
You realise that these people are running for their lives, right? Every day they die on the way. What would you do? If they stay, they will have to support one of the sides. And when it comes to it, you blame those people for staying and fighting for either side. They can't win, can they? Because they do not count as humans after all.

Fuck the area as much as you can, then go "oh end is nigh! we are over run!"

Too bad they cannot run away to live in the US.

No, we get Mexicans, Guatemalans, El Salvadorians and people leaving the Bible Belt to move to Colorado. I know some of each...... :biggrin:

Quote from: stromboli on September 02, 2015, 11:29:52 AM
No, we get Mexicans, Guatemalans, El Salvadorians and people leaving the Bible Belt to move to Colorado. I know some of each...... :biggrin:

Lol, come on that's not enough to be fair, now is it.  :biggrin: You need more diversity than that.

Hi strom, the refugee crisis is a humanitarian disaster. This one, blame it on humans, no one else. It puts into question the very concept of borders, nationhood and human nature.

When the images of the dead little boy appeared, that should have been a wake up call. This crisis will not get any better, until the EU attacks the source of it the cause for these people running from there own country. Unless something is done at the source, this won't end, and more images of dead children on beaches or in parents arms will be showing.

When hearing that Russia wants to join in the fight against Isis, that of all things makes you realize how serious this is becoming. Its not just Isis of course, but its an example.

QuoteMeanwhile, no one is bothering even to ask, much less answer, one central question: why is it incumbent upon Europe have to absorb all these refugees? Why not Saudi Arabia or the other Muslim countries that are oil-rich and have plenty of space?
The answer is unspoken because non-Muslim authorities refuse to believe it and Muslims don’t want it stated or known: these refugees have to go to Europe because this is a hijrah.

source  (http://www.jihadwatch.org/2015/09/robert-spencer-in-frontpage-the-hijrah-into-europe)

Islam is nothing if not opportunistic. Any European leader that doesn't see Hijrah in progress is an idiot. Pretty clear, at least to me, that Allah goes where the refugees go. Nothing like inundating a country with refugees packing Quran and leaving loved ones behind they need to find a safe haven for. And in 10 years a large group of settled refugees will be demanding Halal and Sharia law.

Call me a bigot. Hard to deny the obvious.

Quote from: pr126 on September 04, 2015, 12:13:12 PM
source  (http://www.jihadwatch.org/2015/09/robert-spencer-in-frontpage-the-hijrah-into-europe)

I don't think these refugees are seeking asylum because of a great desire in planning a conversion to Sharia law, but more that they are fleeing failed states, and Europe is a safe haven. If some of them intend to carry such plan, it's up to the citizens of that country to see that it doesn't happen.

Quote from: stromboli on September 04, 2015, 01:52:25 PM
Islam is nothing if not opportunistic.

That's true of any religion. Are we going to deny humanitarian help to an individual just because he/she has religious beliefs? If so, atheists are no different than theists.

Quote from: josephpalazzo on September 04, 2015, 01:56:04 PM
I don't think these refugees are seeking asylum because of a great desire in planning a conversion to Sharia law, but more that they are fleeing failed states, and Europe is a safe haven. If some of them intend to carry such plan, it's up to the citizens of that country to see that it doesn't happen.

Europe will become a failed continent soon.
Those who feel safe in fortress USA, don't. You will not be left alone. You are next.

Quote from: pr126 on September 04, 2015, 02:10:26 PM
Europe will become a failed continent soon.
Those who feel safe in fortress USA, don't. You will not be left alone. You are next.

Are you becoming what Muhammed was, a prophet? Tst, tst...

Look, Europe was always under the threat of invasion. Remember the Huns, the Vandals... and the Anglo-Saxons, who pillared the Roman Empire and  vast parts of Europe, not to mention the Mongols in the 13th century. If  Europeans strongly believe in their values, they can absorb this wave of migrants, and get them, Muslims or others, to accept their values. I'm not saying this will be easy.

Quote from: josephpalazzo on September 04, 2015, 01:56:04 PM
I don't think these refugees are seeking asylum because of a great desire in planning a conversion to Sharia law, but more that they are fleeing failed states, and Europe is a safe haven. If some of them intend to carry such plan, it's up to the citizens of that country to see that it doesn't happen.

Saudi Arabia, Iran, Turkey, Singapore, Malaysia, and the Indonesian states are in no way "failed", and they are places where Jislamists fit in perfectly. Pakistan is a joke, but it should be perfectly safe for any faithful Jislamist.

The problem with Jislamists is that they Jism too much!

Sorry, but I really get sick of the way these people bring the failure of civilization upon themselves, and then target the most civilized nations so that they can ruin them too!

QuoteAre you becoming what Muhammed was, a prophet? Tst, tst...

No. Just realistic.

Quote from: peacewithoutgod on September 04, 2015, 02:38:14 PM
Saudi Arabia, Iran, Turkey, Singapore, Malaysia, and the Indonesian states are in no way "failed", and they are places where Jislamists fit in perfectly. Pakistan is a joke, but it should be perfectly safe for any faithful Jislamist.

The problem with Jislamists is that they Jism too much!

Sorry, but I really get sick of the way these people bring the failure of civilization upon themselves, and then target the most civilized nations so that they can ruin them too!

Well the countries you've mentioned are hardly  a good destination. Saudi Arabia beheads more people in any given month than ISIS. Iran is Shiite country - where Sunnis are a blasphemy, now imagine what is thought of any other religious belief. Turkey is going through turmoil with an attempt to go the Islamist fad, and probably will never recuperate, and forget Singapore - a city-state, or Malaysia - they can't run a decent airline, or Indonesia- it has more than 700 languages spread over 1000 islands. Granted that Islamic states should do more to take in more refugees, but history shows that they weren't even willing to take in the Palestinian refugees, even though they worship the same god.

Quote from: josephpalazzo on September 04, 2015, 03:08:48 PM
Well the countries you've mentioned are hardly  a good destination. Saudi Arabia beheads more people in any given month than ISIS. Iran is Shiite country - where Sunnis are a blasphemy, now imagine what is thought of any other religious belief. Turkey is going through turmoil with an attempt to go the Islamist fad, and probably will never recuperate, and forget Singapore - a city-state, or Malaysia - they can't run a decent airline, or Indonesia- it has more than 700 languages spread over 1000 islands. Granted that Islamic states should do more to take in more refugees, but history shows that they weren't even willing to take in the Palestinian refugees, even though they worship the same god.

What part of "Muslim refugee" don't you understand? Most of these countries are perfect for these people!

Quote from: peacewithoutgod on September 04, 2015, 05:55:16 PM
What part of "Muslim refugee" don't you understand? Most of these countries are perfect for these people!

And what part of "history shows that they weren't even willing to take in the Palestinian refugees, even though they worship the same god" don't you understand?

Quote from: josephpalazzo on September 04, 2015, 06:32:48 PM
And what part of "history shows that they weren't even willing to take in the Palestinian refugees, even though they worship the same god" don't you understand?

What part of "Fuck you Turkey, we're going to send them back to you because you should deal with them" does this world not understand?

Oh yeah- welcome back, JP.

This is the beginning. The refugee tide of now is nearly overwhelming, especially to countries like Hungary and Greece, who have little or no infrastructure to handle them. Turkey? We shall see. And it will get worse and continue for the foreseeable future. European nations are becoming more conservative and there is a growing tide of resentment-largely from the poorer nationalists- who see immigrants as a curse. And there are leaders who will capitalize on that and look to join them. As a political bloc, a large conservative core throughout Europe becomes destabilizing to more liberal governments like France or Germany.

Interesting times. Kinda glad, like PR, I'm probably not going to live long enough to see the nasty outcome.

It hurts my heart to read the terrible stories about these people. I have actually calculated how many people we can house here.

Hey Joe. Nice to see you again. Hope you and yours are well my friend.

Quote from: peacewithoutgod on September 04, 2015, 06:44:12 PM
What part of "Fuck you Turkey, we're going to send them back to you because you should deal with them" does this world not understand?

It's not a question about Turkey, or any other Muslim country as a matter of fact, it's about an individual fleeing a country ravaged by war. I don't think that religion is upper most in the mind of that refugee but more likely a safe haven country. As it turns out, Europe, more specifically for many, Germany as that country has publicly announced it was ready to accept as many as it can. As far as I'm concerned I look at the individual as a human first, before I look at his religion/ethnicity or whatever measure you can use to identify an individual... while others see this whole tragedy as an invasion in the name Allah, duh!

Quote from: stromboli on September 04, 2015, 06:47:31 PM
Oh yeah- welcome back, JP.

This is the beginning. The refugee tide of now is nearly overwhelming, especially to countries like Hungary and Greece, who have little or no infrastructure to handle them. Turkey? We shall see. And it will get worse and continue for the foreseeable future. European nations are becoming more conservative and there is a growing tide of resentment-largely from the poorer nationalists- who see immigrants as a curse. And there are leaders who will capitalize on that and look to join them. As a political bloc, a large conservative core throughout Europe becomes destabilizing to more liberal governments like France or Germany.

Interesting times. Kinda glad, like PR, I'm probably not going to live long enough to see the nasty outcome.

Thanks

Yes, the danger is that the far right might use this to score points and turn this into political leverage. I'm hoping that won't happen. I mean, after WW2,  there were millions of refugees, yet, Europe managed to get back on its feet. No reason to believe otherwise. It will be chaotic, but people are resilient.

Quote from: aitm on September 04, 2015, 06:51:55 PM
Hey Joe. Nice to see you again. Hope you and yours are well my friend.

Thanks, I was in and out of hospital, but everything is ok now.

Quote from: josephpalazzo on September 04, 2015, 07:07:34 PM
It's not a question about Turkey, or any other Muslim country as a matter of fact, it's about an individual fleeing a country ravaged by war. I don't think that religion is upper most in the mind of that refugee but more likely a safe haven country. As it turns out, Europe, more specifically for many, Germany as that country has publicly announced it was ready to accept as many as it can. As far as I'm concerned I look at the individual as a human first, before I look at his religion/ethnicity or whatever measure you can use to identify an individual... while others see this whole tragedy as an invasion in the name Allah, duh!

I'm glad to meet you, Joe!

Look, I don't like to be the one who dehumanizes anybody who's in the desperate situation of these refugees from Syria and elsewhere, but they will bring their religion with them, and that's not good for either they nor Western culture. I don't know what makes Germany a desired destination more than Merkel's invitation, but she has proven to be a cruel hypocrite who cares no more for the welfare of her own people than for the Greeks who she has so hypocritically shafted. She'll only use poor immigrants to bring her working class down to their level, make the German elite invincible, and the rest will all live in misery. When the Muslims in Germany go jihad, the police will step up their militarization and the population will be permanently cowed into submission, just as in the US. It will happen that way because there is no place for the Muslim philosophy in a free society - where they go which is not ruled by Islam, there are and always will be enough among them who will threaten it's freedom until there is freedom no more. It's going to happen anyway, so I hope I'm wrong, but I think that's what people like Merkel do.

Would you like this in your streets?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvyhrrwjjCk

Well, you will have it anyway.  Sooner than you think.

Right then, anyways...

One disgusting trend I have noticed lately is to refer to them as "migrants" as a way to soften the emotional blow; like that is what the world needs, more cynicism and heartlessness.

It's one thing to say "500 people died as their boat capsized". That sounds terrible.
It's one thing to say "500 refugees died as their boat capsized" ... now it sounds truly terrible, because they are trying to escape a terrible situation!

But then say, "500 migrants died as their boat capsized"... suddenly it doesn't feel so bad. Migrants? Those are the people who come here and steal our jobs, refuse to speak English (German/Italian/French, whatever), who are criminals and rapists!

The fact that some one actually thought, "Yeah, lets make this huge human rights issue a bit more trivial, we don't want people to take it TOO seriously now..." is mindblowing to me.

I see what you mean. Apparently the labels are interchangeable.


Muslim migrants threw 12 Christians overboard to their deaths because they were not praying to Allah when they asked God for help when their dinghy suffered a puncture (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3044584/Pray-Allah-ll-throw-overboard-Muslims-ordered-Christians-punctured-dinghy-African-migrants-sank-Mediterranean.html)

QuoteWhen a rubber dinghy carrying around 100 African refugees across the Mediterranean began to sink, a Nigerian Christian prayed for his life in an innocent act that would end in the deaths of 12 fellow migrants.

One of the Muslims on board the rickety craft ordered him to stop, saying: 'Here, we only pray to Allah.'

When he refused, a violent fight ensued and 12 Christians drowned when they were thrown overboard by the Muslim refugees.

The tragic news comes amid reports that an unprecedented 10,000 refugees fleeing war and persecution in Africa have been rescued by Italian ships in the past week.

I get it, the Muslims are refugees and the Cristian's are migrants. There.
88 refugees and 12 migrants.

Quote from: peacewithoutgod on September 04, 2015, 08:36:20 PM
I'm glad to meet you, Joe!

Look, I don't like to be the one who dehumanizes anybody who's in the desperate situation of these refugees from Syria and elsewhere, but they will bring their religion with them, and that's not good for either they nor Western culture. I don't know what makes Germany a desired destination more than Merkel's invitation, but she has proven to be a cruel hypocrite who cares no more for the welfare of her own people than for the Greeks who she has so hypocritically shafted. She'll only use poor immigrants to bring her working class down to their level, make the German elite invincible, and the rest will all live in misery. When the Muslims in Germany go jihad, the police will step up their militarization and the population will be permanently cowed into submission, just as in the US. It will happen that way because there is no place for the Muslim philosophy in a free society - where they go which is not ruled by Islam, there are and always will be enough among them who will threaten it's freedom until there is freedom no more. It's going to happen anyway, so I hope I'm wrong, but I think that's what people like Merkel do.

You've put a lot of issues in this post, which I will not attempt to address all of them. But let me make a few points.

First, it's a humanitarian crisis. We should look at these refugees as human beings, and treat them as such, regardless of their ethnicity or their religious beliefs. Second, the whole world should pitch in, not just the European countries which are immediately affected, whether in taking more refugees, or give support by supplying material or money. Thirdly, the whole world can't shrug this off by ignoring the causes of this crisis - particularly the war in Syria. 

Now what happens in the aftermath, which seems to be your concern: that these refugees are mainly Muslims, and they will bring their religion with them. Sure, that is a concern. But if Europeans have done a poor job in dealing with this problem, that is their own doing. Lets put it this way: if you believe your values are better than theirs, they will prevail. For instance, freedom of expression is more important than the "right that your religion should not be attacked", human rights are more important than "your right to Sharia Law".  Also, in many European countries, the plight of economic woes amongst the Muslim population has been far too far ignored, giving these people little to lose but to resent and oppose the society that initially welcomed them. And so on, the problems are too many, and vary from country to country. But I see these as separate issues from the current crisis. 

Quote from: josephpalazzo on September 05, 2015, 07:24:19 AM
You've put a lot of issues in this post, which I will not attempt to address all of them. But let me make a few points.

First, it's a humanitarian crisis. We should look at these refugees as human beings, and treat them as such, regardless of their ethnicity or their religious beliefs. Second, the whole world should pitch in, not just the European countries which are immediately affected, whether in taking more refugees, or give support by supplying material or money. Thirdly, the whole world can't shrug this off by ignoring the causes of this crisis - particularly the war in Syria. 

Now what happens in the aftermath, which seems to be your concern: that these refugees are mainly Muslims, and they will bring their religion with them. Sure, that is a concern. But if Europeans have done a poor job in dealing with this problem, that is their own doing. Lets put it this way: if you believe your values are better than theirs, they will prevail. For instance, freedom of expression is more important than the "right that your religion should not be attacked", human rights are more important than "your right to Sharia Law".  Also, in many European countries, the plight of economic woes amongst the Muslim population has been far too far ignored, giving these people little to lose but to resent and oppose the society that initially welcomed them. And so on, the problems are too many, and vary from country to country. But I see these as separate issues from the current crisis.

I have enboldened the segment I have very strong problems with.
What about if I do not believe my cultural values are better than anyone else's just that they are different? That the culture I enjoy is a delicate thing to be protected, nourished, and valued. Why is it wrong for me to pursue a happiness which might be different from others?

Quote from: pr126 on September 05, 2015, 12:07:41 AM
Would you like this in your streets?


Well, you will have it anyway.  Sooner than you think.

It is a scary scene. However Farage is someone whos used any tactic he can for fear-mongering, so I don't take him seriously in whatever he tries to do. The issue, as said, will either be having europe attacking the source of the problem, namely the reason why these people are flooding to europe, the source of there own countries instability and europes open door policy, or there will be cival unrest happening here that the law won't be able to put a stop to.
Regardless of whatever the truth might be, the media will make the migrant crisis such an issue that people in europe will start attacking migrants and refugees.

Quote from: jonb on September 05, 2015, 08:21:28 AM

What about if

the part you emboldened did indeed start off with IF..

Let's not forget that the war in Syria is caused by ISLAM, where Muslims are killing Muslims.
And Christians, Kurds, Yadizis, or anyone happens to be in the firing line.

It is a civil war, or rather a sectarian war Shia vs Sunni.

The misery and death is self inflicted. Because of ISLAM.

Someone had to say it.

Quote from: aitm on September 05, 2015, 09:07:18 AM
the part you emboldened did indeed start off with IF..

and I replied with an if, but both posts represent different ways of looking at a problem.

Pr126, if you think the only cause was islam you know nothing about history of that area and therefore have lessened the impact of any statements you make.

Quote from: jonb on September 05, 2015, 09:26:18 AM
and I replied with an if, but both posts represent different ways of looking at a problem.

Pr126, if you think the only cause was islam you know nothing about history of that area and therefore have lessened the impact of any statements you make.

The elephant in the room: (just a small sample)


http://www.warsintheworld.com/?page=static1258254223

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ongoing_armed_conflicts

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/221731981629745409/

https://warsclerotic.wordpress.com/2010/06/13/of-the-22-world-conflicts-around-the-world-21-are-muslim/

http://ibloga.blogspot.co.uk/2013/06/95-of-violent-conflicts-around-world.html

BTW, I lived in that area for a decade.

Quote from: pr126 on September 05, 2015, 09:20:17 AM
Let's not forget that the war in Syria is caused by ISLAM, where Muslims are killing Muslims.
And Christians, Kurds, Yadizis, or anyone happens to be in the firing line.

It is a civil war, or rather a sectarian war Shia vs Sunni.

The misery and death is self inflicted. Because of ISLAM.

Someone had to say it.

Yep. which is why when I see clueless fuckers like Ben Affleck talk, the wooly minded kind of asshole who thinks talking about a fucked up religion like islam is the same as calling all brown people savages, it makes me want to knee the fucker in the balls.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vln9D81eO60

Religions are the route of so many problems in the world, islam being the best example of it, and I feel when that problem begins to spread out from the places that faith is contained in, to the point of causing mass immigration because of the wars, violence and shit way of life, its time to stop being so wooly minded about it.

http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2015/05/25/shock-poll-81-of-al-jazeera-arabic-poll-respondents-support-isis/

QuoteIn a recent survey conducted by AlJazeera.net, the website for the Al Jazeera Arabic television channel, respondents overwhelmingly support the Islamic State terrorist group, with 81% voting “YES” on whether they approved of ISIS’s conquests in the region.

The poll, which asked in Arabic, “Do you support the organizing victories of the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria (ISIS)?” has generated over 38,000 responses thus far, with only 19% of respondents voting “NO” to supporting ISIS.

The sad thing is, in killing saddam hussein, it turned out a worse beast as a result, not just one individual but an idea, which is far worse then one dictator controlling people. Its true Isis began before his execution, but his death looked like it gave power to pushing Isis into the mainstream from his supporters.

This is a topic thats causing strong emotional responses i see, and i agree with a lot of what i've seen posted, and disagree with some of it also.

Quote from: josephpalazzo on September 04, 2015, 07:12:27 PM
Thanks

Yes, the danger is that the far right might use this to score points and turn this into political leverage. I'm hoping that won't happen. I mean, after WW2,  there were millions of refugees, yet, Europe managed to get back on its feet. No reason to believe otherwise. It will be chaotic, but people are resilient.

Yes Joseph you have a point but WW11 ended, can you see the end of the so called  ''War on Terror ?

Quote from: pr126 on September 05, 2015, 12:07:41 AM
Would you like this in your streets?

Well, you will have it anyway.  Sooner than you think.

I personally think of farage as a racist bigot so nuthing much he says interests me...

Quote from: Shiranu on September 05, 2015, 12:22:23 AM
Right then, anyways...

One disgusting trend I have noticed lately is to refer to them as "migrants" as a way to soften the emotional blow; like that is what the world needs, more cynicism and heartlessness.

It's one thing to say "500 people died as their boat capsized". That sounds terrible.
It's one thing to say "500 refugees died as their boat capsized" ... now it sounds truly terrible, because they are trying to escape a terrible situation!

But then say, "500 migrants died as their boat capsized"... suddenly it doesn't feel so bad. Migrants? Those are the people who come here and steal our jobs, refuse to speak English (German/Italian/French, whatever), who are criminals and rapists!

The fact that some one actually thought, "Yeah, lets make this huge human rights issue a bit more trivial, we don't want people to take it TOO seriously now..." is mindblowing to me.

David cameron actually referred to these poor people as a ''Swarm of Migrants the other week, and now after the photo of the dead child on the beach appeared he's starting to sound a bit more sympathetic about it all, i dont believe him for a minute.

(http://i58.tinypic.com/2dlkvwk.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/2vadp46.jpg)

Quote from: Munch on September 05, 2015, 08:49:47 AM
It is a scary scene. However Farage is someone whos used any tactic he can for fear-mongering, so I don't take him seriously in whatever he tries to do. The issue, as said, will either be having europe attacking the source of the problem, namely the reason why these people are flooding to europe, the source of there own countries instability and europes open door policy, or there will be cival unrest happening here that the law won't be able to put a stop to.
Regardless of whatever the truth might be, the media will make the migrant crisis such an issue that people in europe will start attacking migrants and refugees.

This...

pr126

There are also very close fits to world poverty and authoritarian dictatorships.

A feature of religion is that is used as a flag often people use religion as a gathering point to fight against other factors.
Think of Irish nationalism and Ulstermen.

I would say that there is a particular problem with the abrahamic religions in that they have a strong tradition of black and white thinking- 'I am right so therefore you are the devil' , and in that Islamic people tend to be the least educated of the Abrahamic traditions we see that feature most strongly represented, but that is not to say Islam is the only cause. To say that Islam is the only cause is to use the same thinking as the Islamists themselves and I hope most atheists would look at problems with more intelligent visions than the black and white idiocy that comes from those primitive religions.

Quote from: josephpalazzo on September 05, 2015, 07:24:19 AM
You've put a lot of issues in this post, which I will not attempt to address all of them. But let me make a few points.

First, it's a humanitarian crisis. We should look at these refugees as human beings, and treat them as such, regardless of their ethnicity or their religious beliefs. Second, the whole world should pitch in, not just the European countries which are immediately affected, whether in taking more refugees, or give support by supplying material or money. Thirdly, the whole world can't shrug this off by ignoring the causes of this crisis - particularly the war in Syria. 

Now what happens in the aftermath, which seems to be your concern: that these refugees are mainly Muslims, and they will bring their religion with them. Sure, that is a concern. But if Europeans have done a poor job in dealing with this problem, that is their own doing. Lets put it this way: if you believe your values are better than theirs, they will prevail. For instance, freedom of expression is more important than the "right that your religion should not be attacked", human rights are more important than "your right to Sharia Law".  Also, in many European countries, the plight of economic woes amongst the Muslim population has been far too far ignored, giving these people little to lose but to resent and oppose the society that initially welcomed them. And so on, the problems are too many, and vary from country to country. But I see these as separate issues from the current crisis.

Realistically, how would this be their own doing, beyond allowing in people who aren't just culturally different, but philosophically opposed to Western culture? Once their in, there's really no way of "dealing with this problem" short of actions which would offend the very tenets of Western philosophy. Government needs to keep it's hands off religion anyway, and it must keep itself clean of intruding Muslim fingers (as with any rellgion which cannot keep its activities private), and the first time it has to shut the gate on tenacious Muslim knuckles there's going to be noise, wasteful distraction from more deserving issues, fear-mongering, hate-mongering, and ultimately violence.

https://refugeeresettlementwatch.wordpress.com/2015/09/04/frontpage-magazine-what-we-are-seeing-in-europe-is-the-hijra/

QuoteRobert Spencer of Jihad Watch has penned an excellent piece describing how what we are seeing in Europe is not a spontaneous wave of humanity simply looking for a better life, but in fact we are seeing the hijraâ€"emigration for the cause of Allah.

hijra
Is the hijra coming to America? I think it is already here and I wrote about it. (Published by the Center for Security Policy and available at Amazon)
Remember how former Libyan leader Col. Gaddafi famously said Europe would be conquered:

We have 50 million Muslims in Europe. There are signs that Allah will grant Islam victory in Europeâ€"without swords, without guns, without conquestâ€"will turn it into a Muslim continent within a few decades.

Hundreds of thousands more are on the way.  Will it take a “few decades” or will one decade effectively finish western civilization in Europe as we know it?

Spencer (emphasis is mine):

Approximately 104,460 asylum seekers arrived in Germany during the month of August, setting a new record. That makes 413,535 registered refugees and migrants coming to Germany in 2015 so far. The country expects a total of around 800,000 people to seek asylum in Germany this year. And that’s just Germany. The entire continent of Europe is being inundated with refugees at a rate unprecedented in world history. This is no longer just a “refugee crisis.” This is a hijrah.

Hijrah, or jihad by emigration, is, according to Islamic tradition, the migration or journey of Muhammad and his followers from Mecca to Yathrib, later renamed by him to Medina, in the year 622 CE. It was after the hijrah that Muhammad for the first time became not just a preacher of religious ideas, but a political and military leader. That was what occasioned his new “revelations” exhorting his followers to commit violence against unbelievers. Significantly, the Islamic calendar counts the hijrah, not Muhammad’s birth or the occasion of his first “revelation,” as the beginning of Islam, implying that Islam is not fully itself without a political and military component.

To emigrate in the cause of Allah â€" that is, to move to a new land in order to bring Islam there, is considered in Islam to be a highly meritorious act. “And whoever emigrates for the cause of Allah will find on the earth many locations and abundance,” says the Qur’an. “And whoever leaves his home as an emigrant to Allah and His Messenger and then death overtakes him, his reward has already become incumbent upon Allah. And Allah is ever Forgiving and Merciful.” (4:100) The exalted status of such emigrants led a British jihad group that won notoriety (and a shutdown by the government) a few years ago for celebrating 9/11 to call itself Al-Muhajiroun: The Emigrants.

And now a hijrah of a much greater magnitude is upon us.

I looked up the history of Hijra and haven't yet found what I want, but that doesn't change my initial statement that Islam is opportunistic. The problem as jonb alluded to is that it is a very black and white issue; but I did see an article some weeks ago that showed historically that Islam has been far more aggressive than any other religion in terms of military and moving in to other countries. We are talking about the entire history of Islam from day one- the militaristic and opportunistic aspects are built in to the religion.

There have been studies done, and I have posted them previously, that show a significant percentage of Islam supports Jihad and even terrorism. My overall point would be that YOU CAN'T TRUST ISLAM TO PLAY BY THE RULES.

Quote from: jonb on September 05, 2015, 08:21:28 AM
I have enboldened the segment I have very strong problems with.
What about if I do not believe my cultural values are better than anyone else's just that they are different? That the culture I enjoy is a delicate thing to be protected, nourished, and valued. Why is it wrong for me to pursue a happiness which might be different from others?

That would be fine in a utopian society. In the real world, values clash. If you're not prepared to defend your values, you will be steamrolled sooner or later. Just think of yourself living under the Nazis in Hitler's Germany or in the Soviet Union under Stalin: You really think you can live in peace with your values side by side with those who have vastly different values than yours and have more power than you and like-minded have? Think again.

(http://i58.tinypic.com/242ettt.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/14wdq87.jpg)

Family of drowned toddler Aylan Kurdi had been given FREE housing in Turkey, while father’s story is full of holes  (https://themuslimissue.wordpress.com/2015/09/04/family-of-drowned-toddler-aylan-kurdi-had-been-given-free-housing-in-turkey-while-fathers-story-is-full-of-holes/)

QuoteAbdullah Kurdi’s story is made-up. But his lies are now being used and rewarded by the media in full blown propaganda, while pressuring policies to force Europe to take in more economic migrants who have never experienced a war zone. The dead toddler pornography is a dream-come true PR campaign serving ISIS and their overwhelming Muslim supporters.
Abdullah was never on that boat to watch his wife and children drown. That’s why he was the only survivor. The first time he learned of their death was from the hospital after the photos of his young son was circulating in the media. Listen to all the contradictions and holes in his story.
This was an attempt to send his wife and children into Europe before his own arrival to apply for refugee status as a lone woman with children, while they never even lived in a war zone.

Quote from: josephpalazzo on September 05, 2015, 11:00:58 AM
That would be fine in a utopian society. In the real world, values clash. If you're not prepared to defend your values, you will be steamrolled sooner or later. Just think of yourself living under the Nazis in Hitler's Germany or in the Soviet Union under Stalin: You really think you can live in peace with your values side by side with those who have vastly different values than yours and have more power than you and like-minded have? Think again.

The recognition of cultures clashing is exactly I would say is what is driving most of the posts here, the question is how to deal with that.

Stop all refugees from our borders they are all evil. Problem is with that that by demonising others you will also loose What europeans and have been fighting for for generations, and to invoke Godwin's law which has already come into play Hitler was right if we take this view. I will fight against that society just as my father did.
Or
We could use the American model you can come here only if you give up any identification with being other than American. The melting pot.
Well I am a Cockney, Greenbottle is Scottish I very much doubt that either one of us would willingly give up our inheritance to be submerged into being some sort of generic middle class British. There would be a bloody fight if anybody forced me into that particular straightjacket. This acceptance of difference and toleration of difference is not some sort of Utopia but is how Britain has worked and been fought for for probably before records began. Part of being that is that we are not about to force on somebody else what we would not accept for ourselves.
Yes there is occasional strife with the British method, but the Chinese communities that have been here for more than two hundred years seem happy enough with it as do the Yemenis of Wales that have been here for more than a hundred etc. There is no strict separation but if you want to keep to your own fine if you want to mix that is also your choice but the emphasis is on choice. 

The problem is that we have had so much immigration into Britain the understanding of how that toleration is achieved is less and less understood, and with Arabic culture being in many ways opposite of British working class culture the traditional British understanding is shattering and what seems to be happening is that walls are going up and tolerance is becoming strict separation even in indigenous British communities, which I think may lead to conflict.

So for me any solution is going to have to be about compromise. You know considering the point of view of those you don't agree with and adapting to their needs, not just forcing your own view through.

Some refugees maybe, but no open border. And even a bit of education about British culture and history that is not written by a right winger, or lefty that does not even admit there might be such a thing as British culture.

Quote from: jonb on September 05, 2015, 01:12:56 PM

We could use the American model you can come here only if you give up any identification with being other than American. The melting pot.

This was true years ago, with the waves of immigrants such as the Irish, the Italians, the Russians, to name a few. But today, that is changing, you can go in certain cities, and vast neighborhood, you won't see a single word of English, you won't hear a single word of it. The Hispanics are quite determined to keep their language and culture. Perhaps in two or three generations, they will only speak English, who knows, but there is a difference that wasn't there years ago.

Quote

The problem is that we have had so much immigration into Britain the understanding of how that toleration is achieved is less and less understood, and with Arabic culture being in many ways opposite of British working class culture the traditional British understanding is shattering and what seems to be happening is that walls are going up and tolerance is becoming strict separation even in indigenous British communities, which I think may lead to conflict.

So for me any solution is going to have to be about compromise. You know considering the point of view of those you don't agree with and adapting to their needs, not just forcing your own view through.

Some refugees maybe, but no open border. And even a bit of education about British culture and history that is not written by a right winger, or lefty that does not even admit there might be such a thing as British culture.

I agree.

Quote from: Shiranu on September 05, 2015, 12:22:23 AM
One disgusting trend I have noticed lately is to refer to them as "migrants" as a way to soften the emotional blow; like that is what the world needs, more cynicism and heartlessness.

This is something I had noticed too, but I didn't dismiss it as a mainstream media attempting to soften the blow. Migrant conjures up some image of Syrians trekking West like they always do for France's famous corn harvests. </sarcasm> Anyone with half a brain cell knows that's not exactly the case. So why do we act like it is, like these people are just leaving Syria because they just decided to take an extended vacation?

Migrants, refugees, displaced persons, etc... all have very specific legal definitions and carry specific obligations by governments under international agreements. As best as I can tell, whoever is trying to classify what's happening in Europe as a "migrant" issue is making a blatant attempt to absolve themselves of any responsibility for what happens to the people flooding the country. The definitions aren't interchangeable.

Not all migrants are Syrian refugees.

They are also coming from sub Saharan Africa, North Africa, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Romania, Bulgaria, the Balkans etc.
Europe so far absorbed 50 Million Muslims, with no end in sight.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDnAwkjrs4o

Quote from: pr126 on September 05, 2015, 02:24:55 PM
Not all migrants are Syrian refugees.

They are also coming from sub Saharan Africa, North Africa, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Romania, Bulgaria, the Balkans etc.

This is true, but a factor many of them have in common is that they're fleeing instability in their home countries largely created by the same countries now doing their damnedest to avoid taking them in. The U.S. absolutely included.

Quote from: TomFoolery on September 05, 2015, 02:30:12 PM
This is true, but a factor many of them have in common is that they're fleeing instability in their home countries largely created by the same countries now doing their damnedest to avoid taking them in. The U.S. absolutely included.

What is the root cause of the instability? The poverty? The illiteracy? Their moral, intellectual, social, economical, political failures?
Not Europe.
Not me.
Why am I held responsible for their failure?
Do you feel responsible?

Quote from: pr126 on September 05, 2015, 02:36:55 PM
What is the root cause of the instability?

The root cause of this mass exodus is ISIS.

Quote from: pr126 on September 05, 2015, 02:36:55 PMWhy am I held responsible for their failure?

Because Western actions may not have directly created ISIS (though some of our Gulf allies certainly played a very active role in it and are also not accepting refugees) but as an example, there was no al-Qaida in Iraq until the US and Britain invaded. And the US has certainly exploited the existence of ISIS against other forces in the region to maintain western control. Furthermore, when during Western occupation of Iraq, the US specifically armed and endorsed the Sons of Iraq to weaken Iraqi resistance. NATO dumped fuel on the fire of Libya, bombing civilian centers and last weekISIS  took control of Gaddafi’s home town of Sirte.

Was the Middle East and Northern Africa a shitty place to live before the West stepped in with it's freedom squads? No. You're right, a lot of them were poor and illiterate, but people could still live there.

Quote from: pr126 on September 05, 2015, 02:36:55 PM
What is the root cause of the instability? The poverty? The illiteracy? Their moral, intellectual, social, economical, political failures?
Not Europe.
Not me.
Why am I held responsible for their failure?
Do you feel responsible?

The Root Cause....there's more than one.

Religion..........................................................
The west's insatiable appetite for oil...................
Mankinds lust for war and destruction.................the end

Using general terms like that GB I think you may have missed one-
The idea that many at the top seem driven by- 'that if they only had a little more power they could control all problems' and then the need to finance that power which has to come from those they are controlling after all the rich would say its for their own good.

Yes Jonb. i forgot that one,

too many Power hungry people in power...........................

Oh and I think it should be mentioned we British were 'policing by bombing' in Iraq before we even knew oil was there.

(http://www.combatreform.org/DH9soveriraq1920.jpg)



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-29441383 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-29441383)

The British...... causing fkn trouble since fknose when....... :shifty:

(http://i57.tinypic.com/s2bj4g.jpg)

Look at the map the Tory party uses

(http://i.imgur.com/V6JVxUs.jpg)

And there is this one I am told the white house still uses

(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/12/02/article-0-0F05164100000578-96_634x445.jpg)

Well, it is very good for us to take the blame, but Muslims started massacring, enslaving, conquering and looting countries long before the greed for oil, Reagan, or  even USA foreign policy...

Around 622 CE to be exact.  And the beat goes on.
Allahu akbar.

Start here.   History of Jihad  (http://www.historyofjihad.org/)

This is heart breaking, to me. It is fascinating to me how so many Christians in the middle east feel that their faith is potentially worth dying for. I find that sad, but also fascinating because I live in a 'free' country, where religious freedom is acceptable, and while I'm no longer religious, I'm grateful for religious freedom for others here.

 The Power of the Fist is What Matters  (http://gatesofvienna.net/2015/09/the-power-of-the-fist-is-what-matters/#more-37220)

Quote“They tried to overturn the coach, in which I was travelling with a group. Excrement was thrown in our direction… they banged on the doors, to get the driver to open them. They spat at the windows.” â€" such is the report of Kamil Bulonis, the author of a travel blog.

It’s difficult to accuse the author of this entry, who writes a blog called “Obywatel Swiata” [Citizen of the World], of right-wing, Catholic or nationalist “looniness”. For Kamil Bulonis writes about himself openly on Instagram as a “journalist, globetrotter, gay”, while on Facebook, his profile picture appears in rainbow colours.

Last night Kamil Bulonis posted a report of his journey from Italy by coach. It is so moving that we are pasting it in full. Especially given that we cannot rely on mainstream media to break with their common narrative about “bad Hungarian nationalists” and “poor immigrants”.

This is the account by Kamil Bulonis:

Read on.

Quote from: jonb on September 05, 2015, 05:48:03 PM

And there is this one I am told the white house still uses

(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/12/02/article-0-0F05164100000578-96_634x445.jpg)

That should be the map that "Congress" still uses. Ronald Reagan, like Margaret Thatcher is dead. His acolytes control Congress now, but they aren't likely to take the White House again for at least another election cycle. I think the split is caused by the degree of long, drawn-out drama over Presidential elections which remind more people that they need to vote, whereas the only people who pay attention to other elections are those who are old and bigoted, too dull to reason, or are easy prey for any con job. Or all of the above.

Quote from: pr126 on September 06, 2015, 12:03:32 AM
Well, it is very good for us to take the blame, but Muslims started massacring, enslaving, conquering and looting countries long before the greed for oil, Reagan, or  even USA foreign policy...

Around 622 CE to be exact.  And the beat goes on.
Allahu akbar.

Start here.   History of Jihad  (http://www.historyofjihad.org/)


So when did the Christians start massacring, enslaving, conquering and looting countries
Or the Jews start long before muslims and they were all doing it in the name of there god amen.

You seem to want to reduce things to simple black and white lines they wrong we good. Are you sure you would not be happier in a fundamentalist church (Westboro Baptist Church comes to mind).

Even the idea that what is going on in the middle east is islam v the rest of us has become a joke!

Turkey has been talked into the bombing alliance with America Britain Saudi Arabia etc. However Turkey in doing this has got the agreement that Turkey can bomb the Kurds.

This means we are in an alliance that is not just bombing Isis, but the Saudi part of the forces are bombing the Iranian backed groups fighting Isis, and now we are bombing the PKK the only group that allows religious freedom and actually encourages atheism.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/29/turkey-launches-biggest-attack-kurdish-militants (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/29/turkey-launches-biggest-attack-kurdish-militants)

Look how that word 'militants' is used against the only group in the middle east that gives equal rights both sexes.

In 1984 George Orwell had big brother constantly changing sides in the war to keep it going. We are bombing (an act of war) as part of an alliance which is bombing everyone we don't even have to change sides the only common factor is a wish to bomb. If that had been in 1984 it would have seemed just too far fetched, but our taxes are paying for it.


Your simple them v us is a Joke! 

Well said Nicola....

https://youtu.be/f0t9xWeDbhQ

I like Nicola, she's a clever leader.

But heres the thing, she's right that our countries are welcoming in giving refuge to immigrants and migrants, she's right about how open we are here.
But the problem is in what she mentioned about nicholas winton, he was a man who helped people flee from the nazi conflict decades ago. The problem is that back then, not only did we have people like him saving lives from a war torn land, but we were also fighting against the cause of these people fleeing, england and america were fighting against the nazis.

Unless the same action is taken against the cause of these migrants fleeing there lands now, attacking the groups causing this crisis, then no amount of good graces for helping refugees will really solve the problem, it will just make life harder for all.

No amount of leaders blaming each other for the death of children washed up on beaches will change it, because it will keep happening until the problem is dealt with at the source, like how it happened with the nazi occupation long ago.

Also, reality is a harsh bitch but its a matter of fact, an endless flow of refugees to europe, it will lead to civil unrest, with such a huge influx of people from countries with different outlooks, ideologies and standards when compared to the country they are immigrating to. Saying we need to be more welcoming isn't as easy as it sounds, because people of different cultures and beliefs don't gel together, even if Europeans are more accepting, the ways refugees act now in European countries will cause that unrest regardless.

She's right about it won't be an easy solution, maybe this push for refugees in these countries will force the union to go to war with the ones responsible for causing this, who knows.

Not quite munch.
The refugees from Germany came before the second world war started, and the Daily mail was still quite pro Hitler there was a great deal of resistance to the refugees then, but national history being what it is, the British like Americans and everyone else in the world only tend tell stories about the good bits of their history so we all can say we were nice guys.

From my point of view our politicians are not only not going to get a solution, but they are a good part of the problem.

Meanwhile we are in an alliance which is bombing christians and atheists along with muslims now.

Quote from: Munch on September 07, 2015, 09:53:04 AM
I like Nicola, she's a clever leader.

But heres the thing, she's right that our countries are welcoming in giving refuge to immigrants and migrants, she's right about how open we are here.
But the problem is in what she mentioned about nicholas winton, he was a man who helped people flee from the nazi conflict decades ago. The problem is that back then, not only did we have people like him saving lives from a war torn land, but we were also fighting against the cause of these people fleeing, england and america were fighting against the nazis.

Unless the same action is taken against the cause of these migrants fleeing there lands now, attacking the groups causing this crisis, then no amount of good graces for helping refugees will really solve the problem, it will just make life harder for all.

No amount of leaders blaming each other for the death of children washed up on beaches will change it, because it will keep happening until the problem is dealt with at the source, like how it happened with the nazi occupation long ago.

I hear you but Syria is an entire different thing than Germany was at the end of WW2. It had a literate population with a more or less homogeneous cultural identity. Not so with Syria, which is profoundly divided along cultural/ethnic/religious/tribal lines. If you take out Assad, who do you replace him with? We know what happened in Iraq when Saddam was taken out - the result has been disastrous. Secondly, there is Russia, a strong supporter of Assad. I don't think the West can go in there without the approval and support of Russia. The risk of confrontation with Russia that could degenerate into an all-time war is far too great. The US in particular has basically taken the position to let the war resolved itself on its own, trying at the same time to contain it so it doesn't spread more than it has.

Isn't selfish desire the real problem here with so much suffering, like Buddha said?  :popcorn:

Quote from: jonb on September 07, 2015, 10:10:56 AM
Not quite munch.
The refugees from Germany came before the second world war started, and the Daily mail was still quite pro Hitler there was a great deal of resistance to the refugees then, but national history being what it is, the British like Americans and everyone else in the world only tend tell stories about the good bits of their history so we all can say we were nice guys.

From my point of view our politicians are not only not going to get a solution, but they are a good part of the problem.

Meanwhile we are in an alliance which is bombing christians and atheists along with muslims now.

oh I have no doubt about that, the mail and certain bias historians love to paint history in such a way.

Big words of current politicians isn't going to change the current crisis, which is why I look at anything they say as a wet paper bag.

Just makes me wonder where the break is going to happen, because something will break, either civil unrest in europe, the proclamation of war (more war), or another huge recession, perhaps breaking the European union.

Quote from: josephpalazzo on September 07, 2015, 10:12:04 AM
I hear you but Syria is an entire different thing than Germany was at the end of WW2. It had a literate population with a more or less homogeneous cultural identity. Not so with Syria, which is profoundly divided along cultural/ethnic/religious/tribal lines. If you take out Assad, who do you replace him with? We know what happened in Iraq when Saddam was taken out - the result has been disastrous. Secondly, there is Russia, a strong supporter of Assad. I don't think the West can go in there without the approval and support of Russia. The risk of confrontation with Russia that could degenerate into an all-time war is far too great. The US in particular has basically taken the position to let the war resolved itself on its own, trying at the same time to contain it so it doesn't spread more than it has.

true, as said, german and the nazi occupation was easy to deal with because it was something on the surface. What is happening with syria and other similar countries is so deeply intertwined in the culture is would be hard to tackle. What is more needed is stability and containing it. As you said, Saddam was placed there by the US, and did infact bring a level of stability, until the US decided they didn't like the idea of there being a power shift and killed him (as well as all the lovely oil bush wanted).

Simply put, it served as an example that stability can happen, but at a cost.

Imposing dictators, might seem to bring stability, but under surface I think it only increases resentment so the problems that follow become worse.
The British backed the Shah of Iran to destroy the democratic government of Iran, the Shah then lost power to a radical Islamic revolution. It had to be radical because only radicals are capable of organising and resisting the power of a Tyrant.
I think it is this strategy of imposing tyrants that has lead to the radicalism.

Quote from: jonb on September 07, 2015, 10:34:17 AM
Imposing dictators, might seem to bring stability, but under surface I think it only increases resentment so the problems that follow become worse.
The British backed the Shah of Iran to destroy the democratic government of Iran, the Shah then lost power to a radical Islamic revolution. It had to be radical because only radicals are capable of organising and resisting the power of a Tyrant.
I think it is this strategy of imposing tyrants that has lead to the radicalism.

So the choices atm are either a radical regime, or tyrannical one.

That's why the ME is a shit-hole. A dictator offends our democratic principles, but if you let the people vote, they vote for parties that are anti-democratic: Egypt voting for the Muslim Brotherhood, Gaza voting for Hezbollah. It's a no-win situation.

Everything in the ME prior to 1990 was all about the Cold War.  Everything in the ME prior to 1945 was all about English/French imperialism.  We are in a new era post 1990 ... apples and oranges.  But this is a region with a long memory, that is always fighting the last war, which means multiple last wars going back 1000 years.  This means that the secular Israelis are still fighting the Russian Revolution (Bundists were the original migrants).  And the Palestinians are fighting WW I and WW II ... one for independence from Turkey (they don't look forward to the return of the Ottomans) ... and the other as allies of Adolph Hitler.  Smart people would just stay away ... except for the damn oil.  This is why Cyprus, Turkey and Greece must be destroyed also, because it is believed that they have potential natural gas deposits ... it isn't just about a pipeline, but also how additional reserves can be brought on-line in the regions the pipeline passes thru.

It is this current destruction in Cyprus, Turkey and Greece ... that has opened a much bigger door into Germany etc.  As I see it, people like Zbignew are insane, they hate Russia (as Poles with a long history) so much, that they will sacrifice on-shore W Europe to destroy Russia ... just as the US would have sacrificed the same in a Nato/Warsaw Pact war.  The goal of the NWO is divide and conquer ... and they need to break up the Russian Republic to do that.

True that the West gets involved because of the oil - otherwise, it wouldn't care less. But unless people decide not to fly anymore ( over one hundred thousands flights every single day of the year), we need the frigging oil, and so we are tied to the ME in a most unsavory way.

I am a realist, but not a pessimist.  History is mostly about the production of corpses, some of which we celebrate more than others (who is in Grant's tomb?).  But couples marry, babies are born, children are raised ... in spite of that (and no, I don't oppose gay couples).  I suspect things will continue one way or another, in spite of how big a mess we see today.  And maybe in spite of my aging cynicism, things post-Cold War are a little better than during the Cold War.

You see a mess, others see opportunities.

Sharks always see opportunities.  Don't loose your bikini while swimming off shore ;-(

Quote from: josephpalazzo on September 07, 2015, 10:49:27 AM
That's why the ME is a shit-hole. A dictator offends our democratic principles, but if you let the people vote, they vote for parties that are anti-democratic: Egypt voting for the Muslim Brotherhood, Gaza voting for Hezbollah. It's a no-win situation.

Do you honestly think if the fighting ended tomorrow that all these people should immediately become Californian surfing dudes?
The Tyrannies we have imposed are not like the mild soviet dictatorships that sent people to gulags and if they really didn't like you, some of your family as well. These Tyrannies don't just kill those they don't like and their families but bomb and gas whole towns.
Do you think shell shock/post traumatic syndrome only happens to westerners, that the children that have been through this won't be waking up in the middle of the night for years to come screaming?

Drive your car be happy you cant help, because if you gave those people a bit of freedom they might be angry and do some things you don't like, its much better to leave things as they are and have

(http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02649/syriaBodies_2649332b.jpg)

nice cheep gas.

Quote from: Baruch on September 07, 2015, 11:36:24 AM
Sharks always see opportunities.  Don't loose your bikini while swimming off shore ;-(

I know, those naughty beach sharks are always on the lookout.

(https://static1.e621.net/data/57/cc/57ccc39255067f9cec9f7f2f2b64d159.jpg)

On a more serious note, this to me was a brilliant presentation of the problem we're facing, and the ignorance of current politicians.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPjzfGChGlE

Quote from: jonb on September 07, 2015, 11:51:06 AM
Do you honestly think if the fighting ended tomorrow that all these people should immediately become Californian surfing dudes?

Californians, no, but surfing dudes, why not? I know people who surf on sand dunes.

Quote from: Baruch on September 07, 2015, 11:36:24 AM
Sharks always see opportunities.  Don't loose your bikini while swimming off shore ;-(

Well, tell that to my wife... oh wait, NO.

Got the lowdown about Iraq specifically when my son came back from Iraq on his first tour. He said that there were conflicts going on after Saddam fell that were neighborhood to neighborhood, Shiites against Sunnis, old grudges from like 300 years ago being rehashed after the dictatorship was gone. The mindset is nothing but Tribalism and grudge fighting. His company repaired a water distribution center that was damaged in the conflict that served a Sunni neighborhood. 2 weeks later they had to repair it again because a Shiite group came in and sabotaged it.

I'm a cold blooded old man. Personally don't get too broke up if they kill themselves off in the process.

Quote from: Green Bottle on September 05, 2015, 05:38:29 PM
The British...... causing fkn trouble since fknose when....... :shifty:

If we didn't do it, then someone else would.   And you just know they would screw it up worse.

Quote from: josephpalazzo on September 04, 2015, 07:13:25 PM
Thanks, I was in and out of hospital, but everything is ok now.

Glad it didn't effect your intelligence JP! And glad you are OK now!

I'm moving to California soon, where dreams become realities, but I'm too old to surf, but I can still watch, and listen to good music.

Better bring your own water, just in case...

Quote from: Jason78 on September 07, 2015, 03:03:46 PM
If we didn't do it, then someone else would.   And you just know they would screw it up worse.

That is why you got the Americans to rejoin the Anglo club ... to screw it up worse ;-)

 U.S. to accept 10,000 Syrian refugees: White House  (http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/10/us-europe-migrants-whitehouse-idUSKCN0RA26220150910)

QuotePresident Barack Obama has directed his administration to prepare to take in at least 10,000 Syrian refugees over the next year, the White House said on Thursday.

It is the first specific commitment the United States has made toward increasing its acceptance of refugees from the war-torn country.

Since the start of the Syrian civil war in 2011, the United States has taken in 1,500 refugees, with 300 more expected to be cleared by October.

But refugee advocates and some members of Congress said taking in an additional 10,000 refugees did not go far enough toward addressing the humanitarian crisis triggered by the war, which has prompted a massive refugee influx into Europe.

In a letter distributed to House members and seen by Reuters, Democratic Representative David Cicilline asked Obama to accommodate 65,000 Syrian refugees by the end of 2016. Religious groups have called for the United States to accept 100,000 Syrian refugees.

European countries have taken in waves of migrants fleeing violence. Germany allowed 20,000 migrants into the country over the weekend and is preparing for 800,000 this year.

Melanie Nezer, vice president of HIAS, a global refugee advocacy group, said that for the United States to allow 10,000 more refugees from Syria was not an adequate response to the crisis.

Haven't read the thread, really, so sorry if these points were brought up.

To preface this I will say that I'm not opposed to genuine refugees being able to find asylum in other countries, but some things have been on my mind:

What, if anything, it's being done to protect LGBT people in the host counties?

These refugees come from counties, from cultures where the rights of LGBT are trampled over and over again. The very notion of being LGBT is an abomination to many of them. They're going to counties where LGBT people's rights are generally respected, and LGBT people are generally open. With this sort of culture shock what steps, if any, are being taken to prevent violence against LGBT people?

What about women's rights? Once again, they're coming from a culture where women have very little rights compared to their host counties. What's being done to ensure that women's rights are being respected?

Is there anything being done to, for lack of a better term, modernize them?

Or are these concerns being swept under the rug to avoid being seen as "Islamophobic" or "racist"?

Quote from: The Skeletal Atheist on September 12, 2015, 10:57:35 AM
Haven't read the thread, really, so sorry if these points were brought up.

To preface this I will say that I'm not opposed to genuine refugees being able to find asylum in other countries, but some things have been on my mind:

What, if anything, it's being done to protect LGBT people in the host counties?

These refugees come from counties, from cultures where the rights of LGBT are trampled over and over again. The very notion of being LGBT is an abomination to many of them. They're going to counties where LGBT people's rights are generally respected, and LGBT people are generally open. With this sort of culture shock what steps, if any, are being taken to prevent violence against LGBT people?

What about women's rights? Once again, they're coming from a culture where women have very little rights compared to their host counties. What's being done to ensure that women's rights are being respected?

Is there anything being done to, for lack of a better term, modernize them?

Or are these concerns being swept under the rug to avoid being seen as "Islamophobic" or "racist"?

It's a concern but you have to keep in mind that these are people whose culture failed them. Also, by being exposed to the LGBT community and women's rights, they might realize they are not the "evil" things they were made out to be back in their own countries. I'm more concerned on the economic front: Given the adequate shelter, food and clothes, will they have the opportunity to earn a decent living to get their new life going? That is quite a challenge both for the refugees and the host country.

Quote from: josephpalazzo on September 12, 2015, 11:19:35 AM
It's a concern but you have to keep in mind that these are people whose culture failed them. Also, by being exposed to the LGBT community and women's rights, they might realize they are not the "evil" things they were made out to be back in their own countries.

I'm well aware of that, but it's not going to be an instant transition. Cultural homophobia doesn't go away quickly. Individuals will rise above it, but a change in the community will be slow. There will be attacks, and there will be victims who feel like their counties failed them. There will be the potential for attempts by the refugee class to repress LGBT and women's rights. It's an unfortunate reality and a legitimate concern that needs to be addressed, but I fear that these concerns will be swept under the rug for fear of appearing "judgmental".

Quote from: josephpalazzo on September 12, 2015, 11:19:35 AM
I'm more concerned on the economic front: Given the adequate shelter, food and clothes, will they have the opportunity to earn a decent living to get their new life going? That is quite a challenge both for the refugees and the host country.

That's also a legitimate concern. The refugees need to be able to live a dignified life if this is going to be successful. There's simply no way to support any large segment of the population being impoverished without horrible things happening.

Europe and N America can't take care of the people we already have (partly because only the millionaires have benefitted for the past 35 years).  The guy who cried over his lost family ... he was a people trafficker himself, charging $10,000 a pop to the passengers on his boat.  And he was responsible for the sinking, since his boating captaincy was marginal.  Given that Turkey is falling apart (hence the refugees who used to be in Turkey fleeing to Germany/UK) you can expect more chaos.  Kiss Europe goodbye ... and GB unless you keep the gates closed.  This has MI6 and CIA and Mossad written all over it ... just like Ukraine 18 months ago.  Accepting the Gothic refugees worked out so well for Emperor Arcadius at the Battle of Adrianople.

Some little points and a bit of speculation, which may add some colour to that part of history.

All the Gothic tribal leaders had been Roman generals and served in the Roman army for twenty five years.
At the end of a twenty five year service in the Roman army the contract was the soldier would be given land and citizenship.
The Barbarian leaders demand was that they should be given land.

Speculation
How many times have politicians covered over the economic failure of their empires and their inability to fulfil contracts, and blamed the problems on immigrants, the poor, or other minority groups?

Quote from: Baruch on September 13, 2015, 03:06:24 AM
  The guy who cried over his lost family ... he was a people trafficker himself,

The latest news is that he denies that. He took over the boat only after the smuggler bailed out, which is quite common. 

How very fkn nice of Cameron to announce that the uk would take 20.000 refugees over 5 years , what a great humanitarian he is, not.  he's not even taking any of the hundreds of thousands flooding into europe now but instead its those in camps in libya and iraq.
The govt at westmonster just doesnt care a fk and it's obvious to see, an it's not just the refugee crisis, the welfare state, the nhs, they want to privatise everything to reward the rich and the well-off, bonuses for the bankers who caused the mess in the 1st place and now there's thousands upon thousands having to rely on foodbanks to feed their families, it's fkn sickening how they treat people.   i hate the uk government, can you tell...?

rant over, i kept it short................. :wall:

GB has much to rant about ... and Scotland ranting separatist-ly as well.  GB is all about Channel vs Chunnel.  But things are moving more in Scotland's direction.  So when is the old Queen going to be moved out and replaced with a proper Stuart?  Just kidding to our English friends!  But seriously, GB is closer to dystopia than even the US ... so I watch GB closely for future news.

Josephpalazzo ... not that I was not sympathetic for his loss ... but we don't even know what is going on now, let alone hundreds of years ago.

jonb ... we haven't moved into the end game, until we hire Chinese armies to protect us from the Chinese.  Or in your case, Muslim armies to protect you from other Muslims.  The end comes, when we stiff them ... they will not be amused, go all Gothic on us.

We built this tunnel we call the Chunnel
so the tourists can come and see us
so look around and see the town
don't stay, we don't want you to be us

Spend pounds and pence and dollars and cents
but its an island, dontcha know
A Westminster picture or the queen for your sister
than ta ta, its time to go.

Refugees? Don't be silly, please
tourist dollars make us sound
Tents in Picadilly? Don't be silly!
That's where we put our foot down!

Its snobbery not knavery
We got an image to maintain
The lower class? O god! that's crass!
send them all to Spain!

Quote from: Baruch on September 13, 2015, 11:01:47 AM


Josephpalazzo ... not that I was not sympathetic for his loss ... but we don't even know what is going on now, let alone hundreds of years ago.

Of course we are blind, helpless creatures against those who want us to believe in their salad. “Thinking can only serve to measure out the helplessness of thought.”

Quote from: Baruch on September 13, 2015, 11:01:47 AM
jonb ... we haven't moved into the end game, until we hire Chinese armies to protect us from the Chinese.  Or in your case, Muslim armies to protect you from other Muslims.  The end comes, when we stiff them ... they will not be amused, go all Gothic on us.

I am no patrician defending the gates, as a member of the underclass, true trailer trash, I am the Goth.
(http://131149352163792408.weebly.com/uploads/1/1/4/6/11464080/6540375_orig.gif)

Quote from: Green Bottle on September 13, 2015, 07:42:35 AM
How very fkn nice of Cameron to announce that the uk would take 20.000 refugees over 5 years , what a great humanitarian he is, not.  he's not even taking any of the hundreds of thousands flooding into europe now but instead its those in camps in libya and iraq.
The govt at westmonster just doesnt care a fk and it's obvious to see, an it's not just the refugee crisis, the welfare state, the nhs, they want to privatise everything to reward the rich and the well-off, bonuses for the bankers who caused the mess in the 1st place and now there's thousands upon thousands having to rely on foodbanks to feed their families, it's fkn sickening how they treat people.   i hate the uk government, can you tell...?

rant over, i kept it short................. :wall:

Ordinarily I would agree with you, as a British liberal minded non voter, I hate the conservative party because its always going to be the party that represents that tight arsed british nationalism that is almost on par with redneck americans.

However, I can't agree with you on the immigration front, because though its a humanitarian crisis, the fact is the more immirants any country takes, the more problems come from it. People that leave countries like syria, iraq, africa and other third world regions, are going to bring with them a lot of problems. There is already examples of conflict in these countries because of migration and its growth, and the more a country takes on, the more it will grow.
The other problem comes from where that line is between what a politician is meant to care about more, migrants, or his own. For example, watch this video on the problem Sweden is currently facing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KSJY0c8QWw#t=203

When you are told you can't even talk about the negative impact of migration without being labeled a racist, or when politicians put more value in immigrants then their own countrymen, you develop a serious social problem in that country, one that can have major repercussions.

If Cameron took more and more migrants into the uk, it wouldn't solve troubles, it would just make things harder for the country in the long run. As someone said on another thread, the more people you pull in a country, and the more births those people have over the years, the growth just goes up, and up, and up, and taxes the country on resources, jobs, industry.

GB I know how much you love your land, I've been to scotland many times and think its a beautiful country, just like my own. I also believe in helping people. However on the case of this mass immigration, I would sadly stand with there being a block on how many a country can take, harsh as it might seem to stop people getting to a safe land, the fact is if that land taxes the people already living there the point of social and economic decline, then it doesn't benefit anyone, those born there or migrating to.

A politician has to be realistic about how many people they let into their country, because just like the man in the video said, the politicians in Sweden said they could accept 50-100k refugees into sweden, but there were no homes for them to live in, no jobs, anything for them. At least cameron is being realistic about what england can take, unlike Sweden.

I keep saying, the only method of resolving this current crisis isn't immigration, its tackling the problem in the lands these people come from, and trying to push stability into it, something the world leaders should be working towards.

Quote from: Munch on September 13, 2015, 02:03:34 PM


I keep saying, the only method of resolving this current crisis isn't immigration, its tackling the problem in the lands these people come from, and trying to push stability into it, something the world leaders should be working towards.

Who is going to do that? Not the US, not Russia? The EU can't get its act together to solve the Greek crisis, let alone Syria. So who???

Quote from: josephpalazzo on September 13, 2015, 02:47:49 PM
Who is going to that? Not the US, not Russia? The EU can't get its act together to solve the Greek crisis, let alone Syria. So who???

its been pressed before about the US helping with this, since, lets be honest, the war on iraq just made things worse in this regard, and once saddam was taken out, the instability that followed has kept up.
Of course thats just iraq. Syria, Afghanistan, Libya, Africa, its bad now because well there has been migration from some of these countries for years, its gotten worse in the last few years because of increased conflicts in those countries, brought about by things like Isis and other militant terrorist groups, pushing the crisis to unmanageable figures.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12FT7cOLaZ4

Europe is struggling with right now, and its just gonna we worse until something breaks. I think the thing they should focus on at least is tacking the terrorist groups in certain countries so people won't fear for their lives in those places. Of course thats easier said then done :S

Quote from: stromboli on September 13, 2015, 11:36:08 AM
We built this tunnel we call the Chunnel
so the tourists can come and see us
so look around and see the town
don't stay, we don't want you to be us

Spend pounds and pence and dollars and cents
but its an island, dontcha know
A Westminster picture or the queen for your sister
than ta ta, its time to go.

Refugees? Don't be silly, please
tourist dollars make us sound
Tents in Picadilly? Don't be silly!
That's where we put our foot down!

Its snobbery not knavery
We got an image to maintain
The lower class? O god! that's crass!
send them all to Spain!

Nice one...

Munch, i get your point mate but what im trying to say is that compared to other european countries the uk is doing not much at all, i know what u mean about all the problems that can be caused by mass immigration but when the uk and the us are mostly responsible for the mess in the middle east they could do a lot more for these people, and stopping bombing their countries would be a start.

Quote from: Munch on September 13, 2015, 03:00:42 PM
its been pressed before about the US helping with this, since, lets be honest, the war on iraq just made things worse in this regard, and once saddam was taken out, the instability that followed has kept up.

I believe you've forgotten when Obama warning Assad not to cross the line or else, he got so much shit in the US that he had to back track. No one of any of the candidates, both Democratic and Republican, are whispering anything about going to fix Syria. It's not even on the American radar. So nix that.

Quote from: josephpalazzo on September 13, 2015, 05:01:13 PM
I believe you've forgotten when Obama warning Assad not to cross the line or else, he got so much shit in the US that he had to back track. No one of any of the candidates, both Democratic and Republican, are whispering anything about going to fix Syria. It's not even on the American radar. So nix that.

good point. Though obama was prepared to, hats off to him for that. I don't condone war, but theres going to be suffering in the coming years one way or another, either from starvation, resources, or just plain bloodshed.

Quote from: Munch on September 13, 2015, 05:40:56 PM
good point. Though obama was prepared to, hats off to him for that. I don't condone war, but theres going to be suffering in the coming years one way or another, either from starvation, resources, or just plain bloodshed.

The estimation for refugees this year alone is 2 millions.  There's another 4 millions displaced in Syria, and this conflict will probably last for several years. So what we are witnessing right now is just the tip of the iceberg. So get ready.

Quote from: josephpalazzo on September 13, 2015, 05:45:09 PM
The estimation for refugees this year alone is 2 millions.  There's another 4 millions displaced in Syria, and this conflict will probably last for several years. So what we are witnessing right now is just the tip of the iceberg. So get ready.

I'm just thinking of whats going on in sweden right now, where they told them there was room for them, but in reality there wasn't, there is no place for them, no homes, no jobs and limited supplies, and its the people of sweden who are doing to pay for it when the government forces a tax or starts borrowing from other countries. No matter how good intentions are, when something is unsustainable, pulling more people into one life boat just means its more likely to sink.

Realistically, the US needs to do more than just throw money at it, but a lot of gulf countries have done the same: just give money and hope the problem goes away. Kuwait, Bahrain, Qatar, Oman the UAE and Saudi Arabia have largely wiped their hands of this, and Saudi Arabia and Qatar in particular funded rebel groups that have ousted al-Assad. I think all developed countries need to be doing something, but those countries in particular are quite wealthy and have a lot more in common with these refugees in that they speak Arabic and generally share religious and cultural values.

Quote from: TomFoolery on September 13, 2015, 06:05:44 PM
Realistically, the US needs to do more than just throw money at it, but a lot of gulf countries have done the same: just give money and hope the problem goes away. Kuwait, Bahrain, Qatar, Oman the UAE and Saudi Arabia have largely wiped their hands of this, and Saudi Arabia and Qatar in particular funded rebel groups that have ousted al-Assad. I think all developed countries need to be doing something, but those countries in particular are quite wealthy and have a lot more in common with these refugees in that they speak Arabic and generally share religious and cultural values.

Problem is, with the rise of so many extremist groups, any money and resources sent is pocketed and taken by these groups under thread of death to the people needing it, so even throwing money at it doesn't help.

I think a large part of the strain does come from countries such as Australia, United States, Great Britain and the Gulf States doing shit-all to help the refugees. It is about 3-4 states trying to bear the burden that should realistically be spread amongst 10-15 states equally (with the other smaller EU nations chipping in how they can), and then the gulf states taking up more responsibility than the West due to proximity, often shared culture and religion and their hand in destabilizing the region (on this, I think this means the U.S., Russia and GB deserve to perhaps have to shoulder more of the burden as well).

You can say, "but...but... immigrants will come and destroy our life! We cant afford to bring them in!" all you want, but ultimately a huge chunk of the reason these states have failed have come from terrible colonial policies from the West (predominately Great Britain and the United States) and the ex-Soviet Union and we have a moral obligation for that reason alone. But that aside, if we refuse to help people who are leaving everything they've known for fear of their life, how can we pretend to be any morally superiour to them? We want to act high and mighty, like we are a beacon of moral superiourity and they are all scum and lowlife who want to destroy our way of life... if we are so quick to turn our back on people in need because it will inconvenience us... what a farce our "superiour civilization" is.

Neither the US nor GB are humanitarian by nature ... or they wouldn't have done what they did and are still doing.  Nice if you are American or Brit, and you are humanitarian.  Good for you ... put a little money in an envelope and send it to a good refugee charity.  Also stop voting for Anglo-Nazis.  Otherwise you are just wringing your hands to no effect.

Quote from: Baruch on September 14, 2015, 02:00:18 AM
Neither the US nor GB are humanitarian by nature ... or they wouldn't have done what they did and are still doing.  Nice if you are American or Brit, and you are humanitarian.  Good for you ... put a little money in an envelope and send it to a good refugee charity.  Also stop voting for Anglo-Nazis.  Otherwise you are just wringing your hands to no effect.

"It's broke, so don't complain about it."

Well then, sorry for trying to hold my people to a higher standard...

Complaining is a dis-functional response, right?  Are you Tony Blair?  Did you vote for Tony Blair?  Are you George W?  Did you vote for George W?  If you are like me, then none of those is true ... but you are a GB or US taxpayer/voter.  Mind you, the US and GB Joe Blow isn't as much a victim as an Iraqi or Syrian (unless you are, and you know who you are ... they aren't all innocent, just most of them).  But we citizens are victims too.  And I reject anyone holding anyone to any standard at all ... who elected you?

Quote from: Baruch on September 14, 2015, 02:00:18 AM
Neither the US nor GB are humanitarian by nature ... or they wouldn't have done what they did and are still doing.  Nice if you are American or Brit, and you are humanitarian.  Good for you ... put a little money in an envelope and send it to a good refugee charity.  Also stop voting for Anglo-Nazis.  Otherwise you are just wringing your hands to no effect.

Truth is I don't vote, because I don't trust any of our politicians to help sort this crisis out. And tax payers don't get to choose what that tax is sent towards, that leaves charities, which I give what I can given my limited income. But even those are dodgy, as reports show charity organizations pocketing what is given.

Quote from: Munch on September 14, 2015, 06:52:15 AM
Truth is I don't vote, because I don't trust any of our politicians to help sort this crisis out. And tax payers don't get to choose what that tax is sent towards, that leaves charities, which I give what I can given my limited income. But even those are dodgy, as reports show charity organizations pocketing what is given.

It's one of the many weaknesses of a democracy: so many don't vote, for whatever reasons. And the ones who do vote, how many are well-informed on the issues? Most vote for a candidate/party that their family has voted for in the past, or their religious affiliation, or whatever group-think they happen to belong to. And we can't really say, "get informed" because our media  in the hands of big corporations is so corrupt. It's a dilemma when the government acts contrary to your beliefs - such as invading another country - which you clearly were against. So people take the defensive position: I didn't approve of the war, it's not my concern with the consequences, let others fix it. Duh.

I Don't vote either for the simple reason that there is absolutely no difference between the two main parties. They are all cut from the same cloth.

Yanks think there is a difference between Democrats and Republicans.
There is none, none what so ever.

Quote from: pr126 on September 14, 2015, 11:26:03 AM
I Don't vote either for the simple reason that there is absolutely no difference between the two main parties. They are all cut from the same cloth.

Yanks think there is a difference between Democrats and Republicans.
There is none, none what so ever.

At least Trump is honest about the levels of power and wealth he wants, its on the table for all to see, which wouldn't have me voting for him, but at least he's a piece of shit without the icing covering it up.

Your right of course, the sad fact of the matter is it doesn't matter who we vote for, because we have a tiny, minuscule chance of getting someone in power who might make a difference. And we just don't know who that might be at all, they might even make promises and back down from them the moment they are in power.

Politics and religion go hand in hand, a mass of people wanting to believe in what someone tells them, showing blind faith to it, and even if that person fails to uphold it, they still believe in the core of that party/religion regardless. I don't follow a set political stance anymore, because the political party is nothing more then a group of rich assholes grabbing for power and wealth.

In Mormon Utah your choice for a candidate is Mormon A or Mormon B, and whether Democrat or Republican is going to reflect the mindset of the LDS church. And there is truth in what PR says. Nearly every politician in the U.S. identifies as Christian- they have to, to get elected- So you are most likely voting for Christian A of Christian B.

But because you-not me- don't vote, the people who lean further into religion for support like Ted Cruz and company, get elected. I can't speak for Britain, but right now in the U.S. we have one (1) candidate who speaks for change, Bernie Sanders. He gets my vote. Might be wasted, but still it is a vote away from the fundie mindset. Regardless of how you believe, the conservative religious nutcrackers are in office because the "nones" didn't keep them out.

Quote from: pr126 on September 14, 2015, 11:26:03 AM
I Don't vote either for the simple reason that there is absolutely no difference between the two main parties. They are all cut from the same cloth.

This is very true.  I'm waiting to see if Corbyn will make any difference at all.  I won't hold my breath.

When politics and religion driving the same cart, nothing can stop them. -Terry Pratchett in one of the Discworld books. I think Small Gods.

Quote from: stromboli on September 14, 2015, 11:52:13 AM
In Mormon Utah your choice for a candidate is Mormon A or Mormon B, and whether Democrat or Republican is going to reflect the mindset of the LDS church. And there is truth in what PR says. Nearly every politician in the U.S. identifies as Christian- they have to, to get elected- So you are most likely voting for Christian A of Christian B.

But because you-not me- don't vote, the people who lean further into religion for support like Ted Cruz and company, get elected. I can't speak for Britain, but right now in the U.S. we have one (1) candidate who speaks for change, Bernie Sanders. He gets my vote. Might be wasted, but still it is a vote away from the fundie mindset. Regardless of how you believe, the conservative religious nutcrackers are in office because the "nones" didn't keep them out.

hey if the UK HAD its own version of Bernie Sanders, regardless of my feelings towards politicians, I would vote for him, because of all americas current candidates, he seems the nicest.

However, and I've said this before, even following that belief that just because we know someone won't win, we vote for them anyway, can be fucked over. I decided a while ago to not vote conservative, for obvious reasons, and the labor party had been just awful, so I voted for Lib Dems instead, thinking back then "Well at least even if they don't win I'll have voted for someone". What followed was the conservative party taking the lib dems into a coalition government, meaning all the voters who cast there votes for lib dems, were also casting votes for the conservative party. We had our votes stolen by a party we didn't want to elect, and when it came into power, the conservatives took control, the lib dems having next to nothing they could do in there position.

So you see, even when you vote for someone you think can't win but you'd feel good about voting for anyway, you get fucked over by a cheating system. THATS why I stopped voting.

Anyway, back to the OP, anyone wonders why Muslim countries do not take in "refugees"?
Why the "refugees" all desperate to settle in infidel countries only?
Any thoughts?

I have a theory, but I would like to see yours.

Most of the times, you get to vote for the lesser of two evils. In the US, the GOP since Reagan has fallen into the hands of a grass roots that has gone berserk. So presidential candidates had to pander to them to win the nomination, but then at election times, the winner had to move to the center. This has left the grass roots yelling treason. If Trump wins the nomination, perhaps they will have a candidate that closely represent them. If that scenario comes through then the Democrats will need a candidate that hopefully can trash Trump. But we are way ahead, as there are no clear indications that Trump will get the nomination. 

Quote from: pr126 on September 14, 2015, 12:16:28 PM
Anyway, back to the OP, anyone wonders why Muslim countries do not take in "refugees"?
Why the "refugees" all desperate to settle in infidel countries only?
Any thoughts?

I have a theory, but I would like to see yours.

Couple reasons, firstly they are countries with serious conflict, which several of them are in with terrorist groups. The other is because of the access to benefits, in countries like the uk the benefit system pays more money then some countries earn from a full days work.

Quote from: Munch on September 14, 2015, 12:33:44 PM
Couple reasons, firstly they are countries apart from things like conflict, which several of them are in with terrorist groups. The other is because of the access to benefits, in countries like the uk the benefit system pays more money when some countries earn from a full days work.

This.

Many of the Gulf countries also don't recognize "refugee" status legally. The word refugee implies a certain set of requirements on the receiving nation. The only way refugees can enter those countries legally is under temporary visitor or work visas, which grant them no legal status in those countries. It's also not helped along that those countries are starting to tightly rein in whom they grant those visas to in response to this crisis.

OK, my theory is this. Muslim countries are already Muslim. It is time to spread the "good news" to infidel countries.
Since every Muslim is commanded by the Quran to spread Islam, through dawa, (proselytizing)  where better that in the infidel countries.

Saudi Arabia has offered to build 200 mosques in Germany instead of taking in Muslims, which I find rather cynical.

Saudi Arabia Has 100,000 Air Conditioned Tents That Can House 3 Million People Sitting Empty Yet Has Taken Zero Refugees  (http://www.prisonplanet.com/saudi-arabia-has-100000-air-conditioned-tents-that-can-house-3-million-people-sitting-empty-yet-has-taken-zero-refugees.html)

Quote from: pr126 on September 14, 2015, 01:23:32 PM
OK, my theory is this. Muslim countries are already Muslim. It is time to spread the "good news" to infidel countries.
Since every Muslim is commanded by the Quran to spread Islam, through dawa, (proselytizing)  where better that in the infidel countries.

Saudi Arabia has offered to build 200 mosques in Germany instead of taking in Muslims, which I find rather cynical.

Saudi Arabia Has 100,000 Air Conditioned Tents That Can House 3 Million People Sitting Empty Yet Has Taken Zero Refugees  (http://www.prisonplanet.com/saudi-arabia-has-100000-air-conditioned-tents-that-can-house-3-million-people-sitting-empty-yet-has-taken-zero-refugees.html)

Maybe there be a little less complaints about Britain and other European countries not taking enough people in now?

Quote from: pr126 on September 14, 2015, 12:16:28 PM
Anyway, back to the OP, anyone wonders why Muslim countries do not take in "refugees"?
Why the "refugees" all desperate to settle in infidel countries only?
Any thoughts?

I have a theory, but I would like to see yours.

It is well known that the Saudis are total assholes ... unless it is the hospitality they have to temporarily show to the Hajj pilgrims ... but that is a money issue.  Just ask their Yemeni neighbors what they think of the Saudis now?  Most of the current refugees were already refugees in Syria or Turkey.  Well we can see why being a refugee in Syria isn't working, and Turkey unfortunately is falling apart.  Turkey and Saudi Arabia both supported the anti-American Sunni terrorist front, and support ISIS right now.  Fortunately everybody there agrees on at least one thing however ... the minorities must die, including Yazidis and Kurds.

(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff277/josephpalazzo/168621_6001.jpg) (http://s243.photobucket.com/user/josephpalazzo/media/168621_6001.jpg.html)

EU are still a bunch of cunts.

http://gatesofvienna.net/2015/09/aldo-sterone-nothing-is-accidental/

In the past, there were refugees from Hungary (1956), Czechoslovakia (1968), Vietnam (1975).There was always the possibility that terrorists, double spy agents, criminals might have gone through, but the world welcomed them regardless. You can't just decide to turn away refugees on the basis that some are undesirables. True, it will be a challenge to give them food, shelter and clothes, and the means to earn a living. But should we shy away from that? Then what? You still going to have millions that are homeless. And that can cause a lot more damage.

http://gatesofvienna.net/2015/09/a-nightmare-reborn/

You have to remember that when a country welcomes refugees, it is understood that the refugees must accept that the host country has certain values, and these the refugees must accept unconditionally. The problem in the UK is that politicians have failed to do so.

Quote from: josephpalazzo on September 16, 2015, 12:55:15 PM
You have to remember that when a country welcomes refugees, it is understood that the refugees must accept that the host country has certain values, and these the refugees must accept unconditionally. The problem in the UK is that politicians have failed to do so.

Indeed. But these "refugees" come from cultures where rules are non existent and our values do not count at all.

Islam is teaching superiority and entitlement over unbelievers. Always have, and always will.

That how it works. A completely alien culture, the sooner you learn it the better.
I know, I have lived in the Middle East for a decade.

Quote from: josephpalazzo on September 16, 2015, 12:55:15 PM
You have to remember that when a country welcomes refugees, it is understood that the refugees must accept that the host country has certain values, and these the refugees must accept unconditionally. The problem in the UK is that politicians have failed to do so.

Like the US vs Latin America?  Not all Latin Americans would agree with you, and the people who employ illegal immigrants, while the politicians turn a blind eye ... would also disagree.  Latin Americans in the US legally or historically, generally agree with their Anglo neighbors.

Quote from: pr126 on September 16, 2015, 01:18:33 PM
Indeed. But these "refugees" come from cultures where rules are non existent and our values do not count at all.

Islam is teaching superiority and entitlement over unbelievers. Always have, and always will.

That how it works. A completely alien culture, the sooner you learn it the better.

That's where the politicians in Europe fail: do not accept Islam as a superior religion, do not accept Sharia law, do not accept that women are not equal to men, and so on. If politicians would insist on our values, pass the necessary laws to ensure this, the message would be clear to Muslims - that they have the choice to integrate or leave if they aren't satisfied.

QuoteI know, I have lived in the Middle East for a decade.

Ok, but we don't want to change their country. We must tend to our own concerns.

Josephpalazzo wrote:

QuoteThat's where the politicians in Europe fail: do not accept Islam as a superior religion, do not accept Sharia law, do not accept that women are not equal to men, and so on. If politicians would insist on our values, pass the necessary laws to ensure this, the message would be clear to Muslims - that they have the choice to integrate or leave if they aren't satisfied.

Not just in Europe. This is all over the western world, America, Canada, Australia, and it is too late now to change.

When you have millions of "special needs" opportunist immigrants / illegals used to get their own way by threats, whining or brutal coercion, even murder for so long, it cannot be changed.
Short of a military or civil war, this is it. Your goose is cooked.

Besides, politicians do not want to change anything, they have no will. Most of them have been bought.

This will not end well.   

Quote from: Green Bottle on September 13, 2015, 07:42:35 AM
How very fkn nice of Cameron to announce that the uk would take 20.000 refugees over 5 years , what a great humanitarian he is, not.  he's not even taking any of the hundreds of thousands flooding into europe now but instead its those in camps in libya and iraq.
The govt at westmonster just doesnt care a fk and it's obvious to see, an it's not just the refugee crisis, the welfare state, the nhs, they want to privatise everything to reward the rich and the well-off, bonuses for the bankers who caused the mess in the 1st place and now there's thousands upon thousands having to rely on foodbanks to feed their families, it's fkn sickening how they treat people.   i hate the uk government, can you tell...?

rant over, i kept it short................. :wall:

Agreed.

But I guess it is some sort of 'has to play the game' at the same time.

Quote from: pr126 on September 17, 2015, 12:40:34 AM
Josephpalazzo wrote:Not just in Europe. This is all over the western world, America, Canada, Australia, and it is too late now to change.

When you have millions of "special needs" opportunist immigrants / illegals used to get their own way by threats, whining or brutal coercion, even murder for so long, it cannot be changed.
Short of a military or civil war, this is it. Your goose is cooked.

Besides, politicians do not want to change anything, they have no will. Most of them have been bought.

This will not end well.   

Muslims don't get to practice their Sharia law in the US, nor in Canada... don't know about Australia. I believe the big difference is that Europe is new to the idea of accepting new immigrants while the US and Canada are countries made up of immigrants, and therefore here there is peer pressure or an unwritten rule for any new immigrant to integrate in the melting pot.

Some of you are under the mistaken impression that most of the Syrians and others involved in this refugee crisis are Muslims. That is not the case, some belong to ancient Christian traditions, so belong to ancient Gnostic traditions, some are Mandaeans and some are Yezidi. One Chaldean archbishop (yes the Chaldeans still exist) is worried that this crisis will deplete the Middle East of it's ancient Christian population. These are ancient cultures that have connections to much of history. Some of you might hate religion and want it to become extinct but I respect these cultures especially the Gnostic, Mandaean and Yezidi cultures because they are very close to my own. I feel it would be a tragedy to see these culture die out.

@  CrucifyCindy

see here  (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3044584/Pray-Allah-ll-throw-overboard-Muslims-ordered-Christians-punctured-dinghy-African-migrants-sank-Mediterranean.html)

Quote from: pr126 on September 18, 2015, 04:29:47 AM
@  CrucifyCindy

see here  (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3044584/Pray-Allah-ll-throw-overboard-Muslims-ordered-Christians-punctured-dinghy-African-migrants-sank-Mediterranean.html)

You realise that she is talking about the general profile of the whole refugees, right?

A friend of mine posted this from the Duffelblog today. Bear in mind the Duffelblog is like the Onion for military news.

QuoteWorld Begs U.S. To Use Military Force in Syria So They Can Bitch About It Later
NEW YORK â€" World leaders met at the United Nations today to beg the United States to use military force to stem the ever-growing humanitarian disaster in Syria, knowing full well they will then turn around and blame the US shortly thereafter.

UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-Moon said, “We call upon the world’s greatest nation â€" the United States â€" to help bring peace to this terrible civil war, because, fuck it, none of us want to.”

“And the best part is, when this whole thing goes to hell in a handbasket â€" which, quite frankly, happens almost every time you intervene in a multi-sided civil war in a God-forsaken third-world country â€" none of us are responsible for it!” Ki-Moon added.

The “Blame America First” policy is a time-honored tradition in international relations, dating back to the outrage over the US Air Force’s targeted bombing campaign against the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia, followed by consternation over America’s idleness while the same Khmer Rouge murdered millions of their own countrymen.

“It’s pretty shameful, but hey, it got me a Pulitzer prize,” said Sydney Schanberg, whose two-faced coverage of the war in Cambodia in the New York Times inspired the Oscar-winning film, The Killing Fields.

“Amateurs tend to blame America first and then they’re done with it,” said anti-war MIT Professor Noam Chomsky.  “Just this past week, Vox’s Amanda Taub blamed the U.S. for the entire Syrian Civil War instead of blaming, well, the Syrians themselves.”

“But that’s the type of ‘Blame America First’ coverage that gets you a few thousand clicks at best,” Chomsky continued. “If you really want Oscars, Pulitzers, and charity donations, you have to sucker the US into intervening, then blame America!”

“Just look at Somalia: Send the U.S. military to help deal with a famine, then, boom! A firefight, a downed Black Hawk helicopter, and before you know it, a blockbuster movie from Michael Bay!” he concluded.

Schanberg pointed to the fact the “Blame America First” strategy hasn’t always mired America in pointless tribal conflicts.

“We thought we had a real winner with the whole ‘Stop Kony’ campaign, and even the whole ‘Bring Back Our Girls’ thing. But the US just responded with a whole bunch of Twitter hashtags,” Schanberg said.

“Which just goes to show you, for Obama, black lives just don’t matter, I guess.”

British Labour Party candidate Jeremy Corbyn had already prepared a statement denouncing U.S. actions should it, indeed, be suckered into sending military forces to resolve the Syrian refugee crisis.

“The U.S. has flagrantly placed its flag all throughout the world: invading Iraq, Afghanistan,” Corbyn said. “Just who do they think they are? Us?”

Read more: http://www.duffelblog.com/2015/09/world-begs-us-military-force-syria-bitch-later/#ixzz3m6AfgU2V

POE

 Europe Wants the Muslim Refugees as Labor; We Shall Conquer Their Countries  (http://www.memri.org/clip/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/5076.htm)

Quote from: pr126 on September 18, 2015, 04:29:47 AM

see here  (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3044584/Pray-Allah-ll-throw-overboard-Muslims-ordered-Christians-punctured-dinghy-African-migrants-sank-Mediterranean.html)

Don't worry these are the moderate ones...

lolgasm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIcltV7r-nM#t=257

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jxMZRK3ufY

Immigrants cause problems everywhere, this is caused by political-economics.  Xenophobia is the human norm ... not a nice norm, but it is the norm.  I wish Europe could be invaded by well cultured sharp dressing Italians ... oh, that already happened ;-)  Y'all could have avoided this, if you had skipped Nato and just allied with Stalin and the Warsaw Pact.  Too bad Stalin ruined the positive reputation of Russia, and wasn't even Russian ;-)  If America isn't involved, Europeans start world wars .. if the US is involved ... so far so good, barely.  The Atlantic Ocean can be useful keeping out boat people.  This will cause non-ME folk to move out of Europe to N and S America (like the Pope's Italian ancestors, and before that his Spanish ancestors).  America will benefit giving the entire technical staff of Europe an H1 Visa ... to match the ones already being given to Asians.  Unless of course y'all want to go eat ice cream in a blizzard in Moscow.  If Europeans are smart, y'all will burn up all the W European energy sources, and then scram.  Let the ME folk have the clinkers of your dead coal fired power stations.

Totalitarianism is normal in modernity too.  Soviet Union and Nazi Germany had the standard hard kind.  GB and USA have the inverted soft kind.  Murder Inc vs KGB.  It takes power to stand up to power, and it wasn't democratic propaganda alone that did it, but Anglo-American our-evil-is-better-than-your-evil.  As the production of power becomes more diffuse ... solar for domestic and nuclear for industry ... it will be necessary to deploy greater soft-power against the citizens.  Hard-power is so ... 20th century ;-)

Immigration has always been taking place - the hordes of barbarians invading the Roman Empire, the Mongols with Genghis Khan, the Europeans taking over the Americas, and so on. Human have been living dangerously, before Nietzsche said it.

Quote from: pr126 on September 29, 2015, 12:23:48 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jxMZRK3ufY

It's a false debate that is presented in that video. The premise: are people responsible for the actions of their government? After some predictable arguments, it's a resounding no. Lots of misconceptions: as in, let's have a referendum on accepting refugees, and only those who say yes pay for the cost. Never going to happen. The video is attempting to place the notion, Accepting refugees or not, on a moral basis with dubious arguments. First, it's not just a moral question, but more of practicality and geo-political concerns. Secondly, it's a test of our values.

Quote from: pr126 on September 28, 2015, 11:48:19 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIcltV7r-nM#t=257

I'll say this about Patt Condell, I don't agree with his support of ukip, but in what he discusses about the migrant crisis and dangers of islam, he is more of often then not dead on the money.

Recently, the UN council when presenting issues of climate change, poverty and equality, the saudi foreign minister Adel Al-Jubeir said to the UN to not include gay rights into the agreements of human rights.

QuoteSaudi Arabia is insisting that the United Nations keeps improving global LGBT rights out of the organisation’s Global Goals.
The UN recently launched its global goals as a series of ‘ambitious targets’ for its 193 member states related to poverty, equality and ending climate change â€" though overt references to LGBT equality were stripped out of the final agreement.
Saudi Arabia, one of the world’s most repressive countries, called for the UN to make sure that gay rights stay off the table entirely.
The Saudi government is protesting a target under the section of health and well-being, which states: “By 2030, ensure universal access to sexual and reproductive health-care services, including for family planning, information and education, and the integration of reproductive health into national strategies and programmes.”
The regime is worried that this reference to sexual rights could include rights for gay people.
The Saudi Foreign Minister Adel Al-Jubeir told told the UN General Assembly that “mentioning sex in the text, to us, means exactly male and female. Mentioning family means consisting of a married man and woman,”
PROMOTED
He stated that Saudi Arabia, where homosexuality is illegal and the punishment for same-sex relations can be extremely harsh, had the right not to follow any agenda that runs “counter to Islamic law.”
The UN’s Global Goals are a set of targets covering a range of issues â€" from clean water and food for all, to reducing emissions to sustainable
The goals separately pledge to ensure that “human rights and fundamental freedoms are enjoyed by all, without discrimination on grounds of race, ethnicity, colour, sex, age, language, religion, culture, migration status, political or other opinion, national or social origin, economic situation, birth, disability or other status.”
It also pledges to “end all forms of discrimination against all women and girls everywhere” â€" but LGBT rights fails to be mentioned.
The UN has come under pressure recently for appointing Saudi Arabia, one of the world’s most repressive and homophobic countries, the chair a UN panel on human rights.
Last month, the United Nations Security Council held its first ever meeting on gay rights to discuss the terrorist group Islamic State’s persecution of sexual minorities

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2015/09/28/saudi-arabia-insists-that-un-keeps-gay-rights-out-of-development-goals/

Given how the UN has also appointed a chair to the UN council of human rights to a Saudi representative, this just speaks volumes how little the US cares about this aspect of human rights, when currently in saudi arabia, they are still beheading people, including gay people, in the streets like barbarians.

So yes, I agree with Patt that there is a genuine threat from people coming from lands like this to progressive countries like in europe, there is genuine reason to be fearful of these kinds of people coming from those parts in the world when they haven't managed to progress out of the dark ages themselves.

I can understand people wanting to get out from such barbaric countries as that, but the problems of men -(lets be honest is a society driven by men to oppress women, indoctrinate children, and murder anyone not of the same sexuality as them)- coming to europe with that same mentality from a country they haven't know anything else, the brutal violence europe will face from that kind of thinking is already being shown in germany, and set to get worse.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3249667/Germany-state-SIEGE-Merkel-cheered-opened-floodgates-migrants-gangs-men-roaming-streets-young-German-women-told-cover-mood-s-changing.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShALVv4uxsw

The Human Rights Commission thing ... letting Saudi Arabia chair it ... shows either how little influence the US has in the UN, or how little the US cares for anything at the UN.

Quote from: Baruch on September 29, 2015, 12:56:10 PM
The Human Rights Commission thing ... letting Saudi Arabia chair it ... shows either how little influence the US has in the UN, or how little the US cares for anything at the UN.

How about $90 billions in arm sales...

http://defensetech.org/2010/09/14/why-does-saudi-arabia-need-90-billion-in-weapons/


and that was 5 years ago... wonder how more they sold since then...

I used to fix their Phantoms. They are a valued customer.

Quote from: stromboli on September 29, 2015, 01:40:13 PM
I used to fix their Phantoms. They are a valued customer.

Phantoms?!?

Were these from the beheaded bodies?

excerpts from an essay.

QuoteThe Islamic male is a natural bully. He has grown up in an environment where he can bully with impunity; his mother, his sisters and anyone in the household weaker than himself are his victims. Conversely, he too is the target of anybody stronger than himself, so his life is maelstrom of conflict with viciousness bringing rewards, and weakness bringing deadly peril. He therefore sees the world through the eyes of a psychopath for whom might (and the subsequent potential for physical violence) is not only his ordained right, but is also essential to his survival.

QuoteThus when the Muslim migrant looks west he sees through the spectacles of revenge, his personal vendetta against a cruel world. He sees an unprotected society, prime for rapine and looting, the streets paved with gold and the pillows with conquest and retaliation.

QuoteA feudal system, like communism, requires a force of thugs, red guards or brown shirts, to act as enforcers and terrorists, so we see further pieces dropping into place.

It is these same Muslim Recruits who will enforce my slavery or, more likely, my death, and we are watching the process as I write. These are not refugees, they are not even migrants, they are recruits, recruits to a modern Sturmabteilung, and the whole process stinks of the contrivance of our ‘trusted’ leaders.

The mayhem in the MENA area has been contrived. The sudden influx of overwhelmingly Muslim young men of military age has been contrived. The mal-absorption of these men is also contrived. Malmö and Marseilles are already a war zone, and Munich will soon follow.

source  (http://gatesofvienna.net/2015/09/feudalism-revisited/)

The American male is a natural moron.  It takes a force of police thugs to keep us in line.  It even takes a force of police thugs to keep our women in line.  This is what happens when you have a nation of broken families.  And yes, we have nukes.  Munch needs to get with the program ... building those Irish-ME hybrids will take time and effort.  Hooligan Akbar!  Think Uruk-hai ;-)

It's the work of Satan.

Quote from: josephpalazzo on September 29, 2015, 03:13:57 PM
Phantoms?!?

Were these from the beheaded bodies?

Phantoms as in F-4 from McDonnell Douglas aka Lead Sled, aka Runway Hugger, aka "it'll turn eventually, just give it time" (this from pilots) that Phantom.

Quote from: stromboli on September 30, 2015, 10:11:59 AM
Phantoms as in F-4...

I know that. Just teasing you with:

Quotephan·tom.

[ˈfantəm]

NOUN

1.a ghost:
"a phantom who haunts lonely roads"

synonyms: ghost · apparition · spirit · specter · wraith · spook ·

 CLAIM: ‘No Borders’ Activist Gang Raped By Migrants, Pressured Into Silence To Not ‘Damage Cause’ (http://www.breitbart.com/london/2015/10/06/no-borders-activist-gang-raped-migrants-pressured-silence-not-damage-cause/)

QuoteColleagues are alleged to have said that reporting the crime would set back their struggle for a borderless world.

The ‘No Borders’ activist had dedicated a month of her life to helping migrants. Her group was stationed between Italy and France in Ponte San Ludovico in Ventimiglia when the atrocity occurred, according to reports from local papers La Stampa and Il Secolo XIX, and now reported in the major Italian national Corriere Della Serra.

One Saturday night, as loud music played at a nearby party, the woman was reportedly trapped in a shower block set up near the camp in a pine forest know as Red Leap.

A gang of African migrants allegedly raped her there, and her cries for help are said to have gone unheard because of the music.

La Stampa reports that the woman, around 30 years of age, would have reported the horrific crime were if not for her fellow left-wing activists, who convinced her that if the truth got out it could damage their utopian dream of a world without borders.

But Corriere Della Serra also reports that some of her fellow activists are now accusing the woman of reporting the rape out of “spite,” because her group was withdrawn from the camp following a separate controversy.

The town of Ventimiglia, where the alleged crime occurred, has been a flashpoint in the ongoing migrant crisis.

On the 30th September around 50 migrants and 20 activists were cleared from an illegal camp there. The activists organised a protest, whereby 250 migrants conducted a “sit in” on the shoreline.

Yesterday, Osman Suliman, 20, a Sudanese asylum seeker who had been in the UK for just five months, appeared in court.

He was charged with the rape of a Nottingham woman last weekend, the 26th of September, The Nottingham Post reports.

Of course it is a noble cause, the leftist utopia that is soon will make the world a better place.

Unfortunately 'utopias' so far invariably resulted in mountains of corpses.
This latest effort will be no different.

 Uprising Against Merkel’s Refugee Policy  (http://gatesofvienna.net/2015/10/uprising-against-merkels-refugee-policy/)

How Can I Miss You When You Won’t Go Away?  (http://gatesofvienna.net/2015/10/how-can-i-miss-you-when-you-wont-go-away/)

This new 'New One World' utopia dream is quickly becoming a nightmare.
I am watching Darwin's natural selection unfolding before our eyes.

I am saying it again. Ignore it at your peril.

Quote from: pr126 on October 09, 2015, 12:33:54 AM
Uprising Against Merkel’s Refugee Policy  (http://gatesofvienna.net/2015/10/uprising-against-merkels-refugee-policy/)

How Can I Miss You When You Won’t Go Away?  (http://gatesofvienna.net/2015/10/how-can-i-miss-you-when-you-wont-go-away/)

This new 'New One World' utopia dream is quickly becoming a nightmare.
I am watching Darwin's natural selection unfolding before our eyes.

I am saying it again. Ignore it at your peril.

I stopped watching those horrors. After TWD, every pales by comparison.

Quote from: josephpalazzo on September 29, 2015, 07:04:06 AM
... the hordes of barbarians invading the Roman Empire...

:lol: You explained the general western perspective perfectly. Roman Empire invaded far more than it was invaded, took the land and enslaved the people. Like all other empires.

The result of empires is war, refugees...etc. This is a balance.

Shoe, your avatars are getting more and more disturbing.

Quote from: pr126 on October 09, 2015, 11:24:22 AM
Shoe, your avatars are getting more and more disturbing.

I get this one might make you eww, but how is that my other avatars were disturbing?

Quote from: drunkenshoe on October 09, 2015, 10:57:37 AM
:lol: You explained the general western perspective perfectly. Roman Empire invaded far more than it was invaded, took the land and enslaved the people. Like all other empires.

The result of empires is war, refugees...etc. This is a balance.

Nope, Roman Empire brought civilization to the rest of the world. :lol:

http://youtu.be/ExWfh6sGyso

Love those Monty Python skits

Funny, but not true.

aqueduct
Mesopotamia

sanitation
India

roads
Very old not a Roman invention, Romans did resurface some of the Celtic road system.

education
The Romans had no coherent education system and closed many Greek centres of learning.

irrigation
Egypt, Mesopotamia, China, many places.

medicine
Totally relent on Greek learning.

wine
Probably discovered in Georgia

public baths
Greece,
Interestingly the Romans thought the use of Soap by the Celts was dirty, so scraped dirt off the body with knives.

keep order
No evidence of difference to any other state.

public health
No policies whatsoever.

piece
Once uprisings and civil wars are taken into account there is no evidence than to be within the Roman empire was more or less peaceful than anywhere else.

So why is it that the Romans are presumed to be an advanced society in the popular imagination? The answer probably has to do with the Roman church needing to propagate ideas of its importance in history. And then Later European empires needing to claim inheritance from somewhere to blaster their legitimacy.

Quote from: jonb on October 10, 2015, 09:11:07 AM


So why is it that the Romans are presumed to be an advanced society in the popular imagination?

As you have pointed from your listing, they brought together the best from the different regions they've conquered. It was by far not a perfect civilization, as no civilization is perfect, but while you look at the negatives, I look at the positives. To each his own.

Yes the Romans took because their system was incapable of invention, and without any sort of education system they slowly forgot how what they took worked.
What is said to be the dark ages actually happened during the Roman period where during the period of the Empire, the Romans lost the abilities to make or do anything, and in western Europe power changed to the more technologically advanced peoples of the north who started the process of rebuilding.

Quote from: josephpalazzo on October 10, 2015, 09:23:16 AM
As you have pointed from your listing, they brought together the best from the different regions they've conquered. It was by far not a perfect civilization, as no civilization is perfect, but while you look at the negatives, I look at the positives. To each his own.

I like the positives too, but I am prejudiced.  I like Italians and Italian Americans.  Liked them so much I married one ;-)  The Classical civilizations are called classical because they are "classic".

Jonb ... yes, the Romans were villains too ... like making poor Brian decline Latin verbs all night, when all he wanted to do was a spot of vandalism propaganda.  Education wasn't always valued ... and this had long term consequences.  Latin boys got taken to school by a pedagogue ... a slave who made sure you didn't play hooky.  The Latin word for play and school, gives us the idea of play-school ... and the Latin dislike for anything not physical or dramatic (Greeks and Romans got A's in those subjects).  The pedagogue and the private teacher (there were no public schools) were authorized to beat the students like Irish nuns used to do to Irish kids.  Can anyone blame them wanting to be somewhere else?

And a shoutout for my Irish ancestors ... yes, they did save Western civilization, even though the Italians (not Romans anymore) got the credit.

And if I have to edit this post even one more time, I will "incidere manibus" in the tub like a good Jewish Roman, before the Emperor orders me to ;-)

Quote from: jonb on October 10, 2015, 11:08:42 AM
Yes the Romans took because their system was incapable of invention, and without any sort of education system they slowly forgot how what they took worked.
What is said to be the dark ages actually happened during the Roman period where during the period of the Empire, the Romans lost the abilities to make or do anything, and in western Europe power changed to the more technologically advanced peoples of the north who started the process of rebuilding.

I read history different than you: the Roman Empire did NOT fall to more technologically advanced peoples, they were barbarians roaming throughout Europe. In terms of knowledge and technology, it took Europe 1000 years to get back to where it was before the fall. 

Quote from: Baruch on October 10, 2015, 12:08:52 PM
I like the positives too, but I am prejudiced.  I like Italians and Italian Americans.  Liked them so much I married one ;-)  The Classical civilizations are called classical because they are "classic".

Funny that you've said that: I married a Jewish girl.

Quote from: josephpalazzo on October 11, 2015, 10:18:22 AM
Funny that you've said that: I married a Jewish girl.

See, proof of parallel universe theory ... we are two sides of the same coin ... bwahaha.  Jews and Catholics ... at least the cultural version if not the religious version, often go together.  It is an old old relationship.  The Protestants already think they are Latter Day Jews ;-)

Quote from: Baruch on October 11, 2015, 11:08:14 AM
See, proof of parallel universe theory ... we are two sides of the same coin ... bwahaha.  Jews and Catholics ... at least the cultural version if not the religious version, often go together.  It is an old old relationship.  The Protestants already think they are Latter Day Jews ;-)

I happen to dislike the MWI - it's a cop-out solution.

I figure the Romans greatest achievement was city planning. They went with one template and mass produced it.

They built over 500 cities, all of which had more or less the same layout.

Yes, and a great film for those unaware:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9K7Yds8bWz4

Quote from: Cocoa Beware on October 12, 2015, 06:53:17 AM
I figure the Romans greatest achievement was city planning. They went with one template and mass produced it.

They built over 500 cities, all of which had more or less the same layout.

Is that a good thing? That a city is built without thought for its particular environment?
The forts on Hadrian's wall which were to act as gate houses are all set a standard distance apart.
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/77/e0/ac/77e0ac04a8f68f0a5a908c0e6e265ae2.jpg)
This is a nice reconstruction. (Although there is a sweet bit of propaganda in it, that could not be true)

You can walk along most of the remains of the wall now and it is quite a nice walk.

(http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Admin/BkFill/Default_image_group/2011/6/20/1308585406836/Hadrians-Wall-007.jpg)

There this though, if you do you may start to notice how many gatehouses are built on the top of cliffs or in other places where no path could get to, but if they were to have moved the fort a few hundred yards it would be just the right spot for a gate. But then that standardisation would be broken.

Why is it that empires require standardisation even over efficiency, and seem to hate diversity?

Because they are not about benefiting the people within them but about enforcing control even stupid bureaucratic idiocy they present as a good thing, 'its great its the same stupid everywhere'.

Voices of authority don't like questions about The Roman Empire, because that leads to questions about every Empire.

Most Laconic statement by any authoritarian ever ... "So?" - Darth Cheney.

Yes, the British Isles are very confusing, with many different peoples involved over time.  Given my ancestry from that geography ... I never know who to root for ... the Celts, Romans, Anglo-Saxons, Vikings or Normans.  It is like having gone to more than one university, and needing to be loyal to all their mutually competing sports teams at the same time ;-))

Perhaps it is the fault of plate tectonics.  The hills were vales and the vales were hills, when the Romans built it ;-)

Quote from: Baruch on October 12, 2015, 01:10:22 PM
Perhaps it is the fault of plate tectonics.  The hills were vales and the vales were hills, when the Romans built it ;-)

Oh yes Britain is famed for the volcanoes and earthquakes moving the island about like soft cheese over the last two millennium. Your line looks like a very desperate and futile attempt to dismiss evidence.

Further you seem to want to represent me as being biased, for or against one tribe or another, just because I think an assessment should be made that is accurate rather than with a presumption you seem happy with. I thought you could see with more clarity than that.

Honestly, You seem to give infowars unquestioning support and then dismiss basic fact. Is it any wonder that those who run your particular Empire walk all over you.

Quote from: jonb on October 12, 2015, 01:52:20 PM
Oh yes Britain is famed for the volcanoes and earthquakes moving the island about like soft cheese over the last two millennium. Your line looks like a very desperate and futile attempt to dismiss evidence.

Further you seem to want to represent me as being biased, for or against one tribe or another, just because I think an assessment should be made that is accurate rather than with a presumption you seem happy with. I thought you could see with more clarity than that.

Honestly, You seem to give infowars unquestioning support and then dismiss basic fact. Is it any wonder that those who run your particular Empire walk all over you.

Wow .. I didn't understand half of that ... keep it up!  English class is in session ;-)  And don't take politics seriously unless there is a politician in the room with his hand in your pocket.

Quote from: Baruch on October 12, 2015, 11:01:34 PM
Wow .. I didn't understand half of that ... keep it up!  English class is in session ;-)  And don't take politics seriously unless there is a politician in the room with his hand in your pocket.

As one with learning difficulties, (I am strongly dyslexic and could hardly read a book until I was fifteen) I imagined that most people understood everything they read. A lot of people presume that to be the case as well.
However in studying the subject partly to overcome my difficulties, one learns that a 50% comprehension and retention level is actually quite a good average standard. I am satisfied therefore you have a pretty good assessment of my given position.

Politicians have a hand in ones pocket whether they be in the room or not. I have a preference to have the politician in the room rather than far away in the capital of some Empire or another, because the politician in the room with me is easier to slap.

Note taken.  This medium often requires awareness of other posts in a string not directly referenced, and possibly awareness of whole other strings ... when the personality of someone is in question.  I wasn't trying to mock you, hence my confusion.  I also tend to easily mix multiple posts and strings into one big stew.

Quote from: jonb on October 12, 2015, 09:50:48 AM

There this though, if you do you may start to notice how many gatehouses are built on the top of cliffs or in other places where no path could get to, but if they were to have moved the fort a few hundred yards it would be just the right spot for a gate. But then that standardisation would be broken.

Why is it that empires require standardisation even over efficiency, and seem to hate diversity?

Because they are not about benefiting the people within them but about enforcing control even stupid bureaucratic idiocy they present as a good thing, 'its great its the same stupid everywhere'.

Voices of authority don't like questions about The Roman Empire, because that leads to questions about every Empire.

I think you've got this wrong.  I doubt it very much that standardization is the driven force. The concept of building a wall proved to be very efficient as a defensive measure, and so was repeated throughout the globe... until someone invented the cannon, which made them useless.

And how is this related to hating diversity??? Most cities of the past were made of diverse people.

I'm honestly concerned about our current NHS crisis we have here in the uk, the debt the NHS is facing right now is astronomical.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/11921381/NHS-faces-biggest-financial-crisis-in-a-generation.html
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/oct/09/nhs-trusts-in-england-run-up-almost-1bn-deficit-in-three-months

With the growth of so many more coming into the country, the stability of the NHS is becoming even more of a threat. I've been lucky to have been born in a country that has a health service that gives me free support for my diabetes and other medical needs, but it worries me if this could all collapse. Its fearful enough keeping my condition in check every day, and some nights fearing if I'll go into a hypo in the night, like I did once when I was a teenager, ending up in hospital.

Everyone wants stability, and this current crisis is leading towards an unstable situation that hasn't been given a solution, what good is having so many people coming to a country with the offer of free health service, is that health service collapses because of that influx of people?

Quote from: Munch on October 13, 2015, 11:25:55 AM
I'm honestly concerned about our current NHS crisis we have here in the uk, the debt the NHS is facing right now is astronomical.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/11921381/NHS-faces-biggest-financial-crisis-in-a-generation.html
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/oct/09/nhs-trusts-in-england-run-up-almost-1bn-deficit-in-three-months

With the growth of so many more coming into the country, the stability of the NHS is becoming even more of a threat. I've been lucky to have been born in a country that has a health service that gives me free support for my diabetes and other medical needs, but it worries me if this could all collapse. Its fearful enough keeping my condition in check every day, and some nights fearing if I'll go into a hypo in the night, like I did once when I was a teenager, ending up in hospital.

Everyone wants stability, and this current crisis is leading towards an unstable situation that hasn't been given a solution, what good is having so many people coming to a country with the offer of free health service, is that health service collapses because of that influx of people?

Bit for Brits.
As a Brit like you Munch and most people in this country we really value our system which gives free health care at the point of need. Though it has problems, like politicians do not fund it fully. This has meant one of the easiest things to cut back within it has been training. Which in turn has meant we do not produce enough qualified staff to man the health service from this country. Thus to run the NHS it has been necessary to import people to run it. Thus the NHS itself is a cause of immigration. Also I should mention your treatment is being paid for by everyone in this country that is working legally, as such you should thank the immigrants that are working in this country and paying their taxes for supporting the system you want and personally need.

Part of the reason why the conservative party is trying to introduce private companies into the NHS is that a nationalised system that the NHS is would be in variance to the international trade agreements that they want us to sign up to. Those agreements like the one mentioned in the OP of another thread would make the NHS an impossibility.

Back to everyone

You can see that the Brits like their funny little individual system and we do not want what is on offer in the standardised globalisation that is being foisted on us.

This is why a politics of empire and standard cities all the same is evidently a bad thing. We have to be allowed our difference!

The destruction of a public institution is frequently deliberate.  I would call that treason.  We are doing that here in the US, with the Post Office.  Benjamin Franklin was the most evil communist of all time, and his nefarious plans from the grave must be stopped.  Right now pols with special connections, are getting to sell off small country post offices at a very nice profit.  Of course these are in fact public property of the people, but selling off public property as if it were private ... is the very acme of kleptocratic suicide.  Legalized theft.

After the US Borg assimilates Britain, we will convert all your people into fembots with gun boobs:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTv9AhCuSU4

Individuality is so passe'

Quote from: jonb on October 13, 2015, 01:31:34 PM


Back to everyone

You can see that the Brits like their funny little individual system and we do not want what is on offer in the standardised globalisation that is being foisted on us.

This is why a politics of empire and standard cities all the same is evidently a bad thing. We have to be allowed our difference!

The only standardization I can think of is the metric system, which I think is a good thing. One country resisting this is the US which is still loyal to the British system. Oh the irony!

Americans can't admit the French were right ;-)  The English uncharacteristically wavered and folded ... except for the pound, though they did decimalize it.

Quote from: Baruch on October 14, 2015, 07:01:01 AM
Americans can't admit the French were right ;-)  The English uncharacteristically wavered and folded ... except for the pound, though they did decimalize it.

Prior to 2003, Americans loved the French. With Bush gone, the love affair has been renewed.

The French were uncooperative over Reagan's raid against Libya.  They are very good at being uncooperative ;-)

Quote from: Baruch on October 14, 2015, 07:22:40 AM
The French were uncooperative over Reagan's raid against Libya.  They are very good at being uncooperative ;-)

The French know a lot more about North Africa than the Americans. Reagan should have listened.

The foreign policy of the British upper classes has had one consistent goal for the last five hundred years. To stop any one power uniting or taking control of Europe . This could be by fighting emergent powers, or by joining the EU and encouraging them to extend it so much that it becomes economically useless.
The realisation of American industrial power in the 1920s has meant that British thinking in Whitehall is that Britain's best hope is to be America's poodle. De Gaulle recognised that and worked his best to exclude Britain from Europe.

QuoteWhen I am right, I get angry. Churchill gets angry when he is wrong. We are angry at each other much of the time.

Charles De Gaulle

Quote from: jonb on October 14, 2015, 08:16:19 AM
The foreign policy of the British upper classes has had one consistent goal for the last five hundred years. To stop any one power uniting or taking control of Europe . This could be by fighting emergent powers, or by joining the EU and encouraging them to extend it so much that it becomes economically useless.
The realisation of American industrial power in the 1920s has meant that British thinking in Whitehall is that Britain's best hope is to be America's poodle. De Gaulle recognised that and worked his best to exclude Britain from Europe.

QuoteWhen I am right, I get angry. Churchill gets angry when he is wrong. We are angry at each other much of the time.

Charles De Gaulle

De Gaulle never forgave the British for ousting France out of Syria.

 Asylum seekers SUE Germany for not paying them benefits FAST ENOUGH  (http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/612015/Asylum-seekers-SUE-Germany-for-not-paying-them-benefits-FAST-ENOUGH)

QuoteA GROUP of asylum seekers are SUING Germany for not allowing them to register asylum quick enough so they can access benefits, throwing the Government’s goodwill back in their faces.

Around 20 Syrian migrants have filed a case against the Berlin state Government demanding immediate access to shelter and benefits after waiting for more than a week to be registered by the authorities.

It comes as serious splits emerged in Angela Merkel's Government over how to divide economic migrants from genuine refugees fleeing war-torn countries.

Hundreds of asylum seekers are still waiting to be registered due to huge backlogs at the city's main refugee centre.

Quote

Refugees? Asylum seekers? Bull. Freeloaders.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ck3TvvNdyII

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_XHkgScOSY

There are homeless people in these countries which were born in them, who are given less help by there own country then what these ungrateful bastards get. No, I'm done, with anyone saying europe doesn't do enough to help immigrants. They can fuck off.

 As Goes Nickelsdorf, So Goes Europe  (http://gatesofvienna.net/2015/10/as-goes-nickelsdorf-so-goes-europe/)

QuoteWestern Europe is currently undergoing a transformation, into a multicultural utopia or third-world hellhole, depending on your perspective. The process has been going on for decades. It began in the centers of major cities, and then spread to the larger towns and suburbs. Neighborhoods that used to be occupied by Europeans engaged in traditional European activities have morphed into exotic ghettoes that look more like Karachi or Rabat than London and Rotterdam.

The wave of “refugees” now engulfing Continental Europe is accelerating the process of transformation. Border towns in Germany and Austria are feeling a multicultural shock that used to be confined to the inner cities and major banlieues. Native Europeans accustomed to their traditional lifestyle are being confronted with a level of alien backwardness they have never before experienced.

Will this happen also in the USA in the future? What do you think?

Quote from: pr126 on October 14, 2015, 02:34:12 PM
As Goes Nickelsdorf, So Goes Europe  (http://gatesofvienna.net/2015/10/as-goes-nickelsdorf-so-goes-europe/)Will this happen also in the USA in the future? What do you think?

Hardly. First, there is the Christian Right who would go berserk if  Muslims would want a greater piece of the pie. Secondly, Americans despise a nanny state. If you get into the country legally, you better work your ass off if you want to put bread on the table. Thirdly, if you want to make it big in America you need to say over and over, "God bless America" - while "Allah Akbar" might get you lynched.

Quote from: josephpalazzo on October 14, 2015, 04:32:02 PM
"Allah Akbar" might get you lynched.

Might??

Quote from: pr126 on October 14, 2015, 02:34:12 PM
As Goes Nickelsdorf, So Goes Europe  (http://gatesofvienna.net/2015/10/as-goes-nickelsdorf-so-goes-europe/)

QuoteWestern Europe is currently undergoing a transformation, into a multicultural utopia or third-world hellhole, depending on your perspective. The process has been going on for decades. It began in the centers of major cities, and then spread to the larger towns and suburbs. Neighborhoods that used to be occupied by Europeans engaged in traditional European activities have morphed into exotic ghettoes that look more like Karachi or Rabat than London and Rotterdam.

The wave of “refugees” now engulfing Continental Europe is accelerating the process of transformation. Border towns in Germany and Austria are feeling a multicultural shock that used to be confined to the inner cities and major banlieues. Native Europeans accustomed to their traditional lifestyle are being confronted with a level of alien backwardness they have never before experienced.

Will this happen also in the USA in the future? What do you think?

With you citing this article and with "traditional European" meaning "white", I really think it is not so much the religion of these brown people you oppose...I am think that maybe you just don't want brown people in Europe regardless of their religion. So I have to ask you: would be accepting of Arab refugees moving into your neighborhood if they were like Arab Christians?

Quote from: CrucifyCindy on October 14, 2015, 06:40:40 PM
maybe you just don't want brown people in Europe regardless of their religion.

odd, I didn't get that in the least. Maybe you are wanting.

Quote from: aitm on October 14, 2015, 06:47:49 PM
odd, I didn't get that in the least. Maybe you are wanting.

Ok you tell me what "Native European" or "Traditional European" is supposed to mean?

Quote from: CrucifyCindy on October 14, 2015, 06:53:39 PM
Ok you tell me what "Native European" or "Traditional European" is supposed to mean?

Does he mean this
(http://www.forumimusliman.org/foto/dreke2006/naimin.gif)
The Chairman of the Muslim Forum of Albania, talking to the head of the Islamic Community of Kosova, Naim Tërnava, quite traditional native Albanians and Kosovan therefore Europeans.

Quote from: CrucifyCindy on October 14, 2015, 06:40:40 PM

Will this happen also in the USA in the future? What do you think?


With you citing this article and with "traditional European" meaning "white", I really think it is not so much the religion of these brown people you oppose...I am think that maybe you just don't want brown people in Europe regardless of their religion. So I have to ask you: would be accepting of Arab refugees moving into your neighborhood if they were like Arab Christians?

seriously, do you even understand that some of this people be they brown or purple, will pose problems since they are coming from war torn regions and more regressive cultures, they will have problems to adapt and there will be spikes of all the bad things related to poverty, regressive cultures and populations traumatized by violence. Like violence, crime, gang activity, social alienation the formation of ghettos. The opposition towards immigration is not all about racism. It's about the culture clash. It's about realizing shit is not as simple as letting people come into the country and give them free stuff.

Quote from: jonb on October 14, 2015, 07:19:52 PM
Does he mean this
(http://www.forumimusliman.org/foto/dreke2006/naimin.gif)
The Chairman of the Muslim Forum of Albania, talking to the head of the Islamic Community of Kosova, Naim Tërnava, quite traditional native Albanians and Kosovan therefore Europeans.

I highly doubt pr would see Muslim Albanians as "Traditional Europeans" anymore than he would see Turks as "Traditional Europeans"

Quote from: CrucifyCindy on October 14, 2015, 07:25:28 PM
I highly doubt pr would see Muslim Albanians as "Traditional Europeans" anymore than he would see Turks as "Traditional Europeans"

I would have problems defining Turks as European, as most Turks would. The problem is that there are so many dishonest voices that do not want to examine the repercussions of their own position that the real problems are not looked at. Therefore in my view the left right divide is itself the problem.

Quote from: CrucifyCindy on October 14, 2015, 07:25:28 PM
I highly doubt pr would see Muslim Albanians as "Traditional Europeans" anymore than he would see Turks as "Traditional Europeans"

Of course you would. You appear to be racist

Quote from: aitm on October 14, 2015, 08:54:40 PM
Of course you would. You appear to be racist

So basically you are accusing me of being racist because I think someone else is a racist. You must come from Bizarro world because that is some really screwy logic you have there.

(http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110926155012/marvel_dc/images/4/4b/Bizarro_Justice_League_Earth-One_003.jpg)

Quote from: CrucifyCindy on October 14, 2015, 09:14:24 PM
So basically you are accusing me of being racist because I think someone else is a racist. You must come from Bizarro world because that is some really screwy logic you have there.

(http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110926155012/marvel_dc/images/4/4b/Bizarro_Justice_League_Earth-One_003.jpg)

You drew the original analogy based on your preconceived perceptions of someone……hello?

Quote from: aitm on October 14, 2015, 09:35:46 PM
You drew the original analogy based on your preconceived perceptions of someone……hello?

No no no. I am came to a belief pr might be a racist due to the preponderence of the evidence like the fact that most of his post have to do with how bad Muslims are or how shitty Arabs are. I don't know how your mind works or anything I and I really have no desire to enter your mind and figure out why you think the way you do but dude for real...you are not making any sense whatsoever...people are not racist because they criticize others for racism. Do you understand that?

Quote from: CrucifyCindy on October 14, 2015, 09:42:04 PM
No no no. I am came to a belief pr might be a racist due to the preponderence of the evidence like the fact that most of his post have to do with how bad Muslims are or how shitty Arabs are. I don't know how your mind works or anything I and I really have no desire to enter your mind and figure out why you think the way you do but dude for real...you are not making any sense whatsoever...people are not racist because they criticize others for racism. Do you understand that?

PR has issues with muslims. You projected that to people of color. The issue of color seems to be yours.

Quote from: CrucifyCindy on October 14, 2015, 09:14:24 PM
So basically you are accusing me of being racist because I think someone else is a racist. You must come from Bizarro world because that is some really screwy logic you have there.

(http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110926155012/marvel_dc/images/4/4b/Bizarro_Justice_League_Earth-One_003.jpg)

Well that and you also wrote this

Quote from: CrucifyCindy on October 04, 2015, 06:31:19 PM
It is very easy for a white person to make statemetns like you have because you just do not have the experiences that people of color have.

the racist thing being that what you were referring to as "the experiences of people of color". Were not exclusive and inherent to all people of color (whatever that population actually is) Also you mention the speaker's race to say that that indicates he must be or behave in a certain way solely on the basis of his race.

That ladies and gents is the ironic cancer of modern identity politics staring at you in the face.

It only shows that any thread can be turned into a racist witch hunt without trying. Yet another attempt to shut down discussion.

Islam is not a race, it is a toxic, inhuman ideology.  Persons of any ethnicity, race, or color can be and are Muslims.

It seems that popular narrative allocated Islam to brown people and Christianity to white people. It is not so.

Quote from: pr126 on October 14, 2015, 11:35:34 PM
It only shows that any thread can be turned into a racist witch hunt without trying. Yet another attempt to shut down discussion.

Islam is not a race, it is a toxic, inhuman ideology.  Persons of any ethnicity, race, or color can be and are Muslims.

It seems that popular narrative allocated Islam to brown people and Christianity to white people. It is not so.

And that is why I asked a simple question which you have not answered...if these refugees were Arab Christians or not affiliated with any religion, would you be more welcoming? C'mon, be honest.

Absolutely. I have nothing against color or ethnicity,  only the ideology which divides the world into believer and kuffar whom have to be either converted, subdued or dead.

It this too difficult for you to grasp?

Did Pr126 surprise you?  It is hard to assess people thru the kaleidoscope of the Internet.

Quote from: pr126 on October 14, 2015, 11:56:12 PM
Absolutely. I have nothing against color or ethnicity,  only the ideology which divides the world into believer and kuffar whom have to be either converted, subdued or dead.

It this too difficult for you to grasp?

Not at all. It is just some of the links you put up are more than suspect. A few of them have been from European nationalist blogs and such and with you being from Europe and all you should realize that those sources would be suspect given that they are you know...European Nationalists.

Quote from: CrucifyCindy on October 15, 2015, 12:04:34 AM
Not at all. It is just some of the links you put up are more than suspect. A few of them have been from European nationalist blogs and such and with you being from Europe and all you should realize that those sources would be suspect given that they are you know...European Nationalists.

Some background:

I am also an immigrant, lacking in white guilt and I have not been indoctrinated to hate my culture or my adopted country.
I also do not hold myself responsible for any misdeeds my ancestors may have done.

I was born in WWII, educated in a communist ruled country in eastern Europe. I understand totalitarian ideology when I see it.


"It is just some of the links I have put up are more than suspect", - because it goes against your  indoctrination  ideas.
A freethinker? Probably not so much.

You have your preconceived ideas, and I have mine.

Quote from: pr126 on October 15, 2015, 12:12:00 AM
Some background:

I am also an immigrant, lacking in white guilt and I have not been indoctrinated to hate my culture or my adopted country.
I also do not hold myself responsible for any misdeeds my ancestors may have done.

I was born in WWII, educated in a communist ruled country in eastern Europe. I understand totalitarian ideology when I see it.


"It is just some of the links I have put up are more than suspect", - because it goes against your  indoctrination  ideas.
A freethinker? Probably not so much.

You have your preconceived ideas, and I have mine.

And this communist ruled Eastern European country you were educated in...it wouldn't like perhaps like be in the whereabouts of what was formerly known as Yugoslavia? Maybe it is perhaps called Serbia or something like that now or perhaps close to that region?

Close but no cigar. A bit further north.


(http://www.amawaterways.com/assets/cruise_ak_photo_6.jpg)

Quote from: pr126 on October 15, 2015, 01:37:36 AM
Close but no cigar. A bit further north.

awww too bad you were not a dirty serbian so she could use her collectivist thinking to attempt character assassination and just dismiss you as a serbian "islamophobe".

I did notice that she is rather quick to jump on people and provoke an argument when the post is not within her acceptable parameters.

A true  SJW  (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=social+justice+warrior) 

Shiranu is just the same. Getting their jollies by fighting for the cause, whatever that cause may be.

Quote from: CrucifyCindy on October 15, 2015, 01:33:45 AM
And this communist ruled Eastern European country you were educated in...it wouldn't like perhaps like be in the whereabouts of what was formerly known as Yugoslavia? Maybe it is perhaps called Serbia or something like that now or perhaps close to that region?

Please explain this statement! You seem to be implying that there is something inherently wrong with being Serbian, if so tell us what it is so that we can all see.

Quote from: pr126 on October 15, 2015, 01:37:36 AM
Close but no cigar. A bit further north.


(http://www.amawaterways.com/assets/cruise_ak_photo_6.jpg)

I was in Budapest many years ago. The Paris of the East,  I loved the architecture and its charming boulevards. Have you gone back to visit?

@ josephpalazzo:

No, I have not.

Hey Cindy, here is something worth fighting for. Will you take a stand?

A cause for social justice?  (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1648796088729487&set=a.1378111339131298.1073741828.100007973340608&type=3&theater)

FGM  (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur'an,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Female_Genital_Mutilation)

 Germany changing in the wake of Muslim invaders (http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2015/10/germany_changing_in_the_wake_of_muslim_invaders.html)

Naked Islam (BNI).

QuoteGarbage and feces are visible in public spaces.  But that’s okay.  German schoolchildren can clean it up.  What better way to introduce them to the dhimmi status that awaits than to have them start young and perform duties as if indentured servants for the invaders (here and here)?

Meanwhile, many trains are out of service, unusable until they are completely disinfected.  Muslim invaders do not use toilets or garbage disposals.

Schoolgirls are told to cover up because male invaders might “misunderstand” or be “offended” and unable to control themselves.  Germany has just imported the true rape culture: Islam (here and here).

BNI also reports on a tiny town just across the border in Austria.  It is unrecognizable.  There are invaders, garbage, and feces everywhere.  Women dare not venture out alone for fear of being attacked.  With few police and no political will to do anything about it, the situation continues unabated.

There are rumors that some police officers stationed in areas particularly hard hit by these savages have come down with mysterious illnesses.

One female Christian volunteer stated they are continually berated as “Christian whores.”

None of this should surprise anyone.  All of it could have been avoided.  But Europe has chosen death over life.

Some Germans are trying desperately to stop this suicidal insanity by trying to block busloads of invaders from entering their towns.  To no avail.  The German police protect the buses, not the German citizens.  Watching a video clip of this (here) was like watching the seeds of a civil war.

One can only imagine the joy terrorists feel to see this unfolding â€" all going according to plan.  Perhaps even easier than planned.  Who would have guessed that Germany would have flung open the doors so wide?

Is there hope?  Yes, because there is always hope.  Masses of Germans have been rallying to defend their nation, though you’d never know because the media doesn’t cover it (here, here, here, here, and here for recent rallies).

May the German people prevail.  And may we, here in America, do everything possible to ensure that this is not our future.

Take this as a warning.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OgncR6cewc

pr126 "I understand totalitarian ideology when I see it." ... so is the Western version of msinairatilatot much better than the Eastern version?  I hear political scientists call the new status quo in the West "inverted totalitarianism" ... since my font won't let me show that, I thought printing it backwards would suffice.

Quote from: Baruch on October 16, 2015, 11:21:16 PM
pr126 "I understand totalitarian ideology when I see it." ... so is the Western version of msinairatilatot much better than the Eastern version?  I hear political scientists call the new status quo in the West "inverted totalitarianism" ... since my font won't let me show that, I thought printing it backwards would suffice.

Inverted totalitarianism is applied to the US, not Europe, with the idea that big corporations have corrupted and subverted democracy. Pr is more concerned with the islamisation of Europe.

For what it's worth, I was talking to my sister and brother-in-law the other day.  They were planning a trip to Sweden, but my brother-in-law doesn't do anything without researching it in depth before hand.  They decided not to go, because they were left with the impression that things are becoming chaotic there.  Apparently Sweden was gearing up to accommodate an estimated 10,000 refugees, but it turns out they are getting something like 5,000 per week, and they are not prepared to adequately handle that kind of influx.

Somewhere between a country's moral obligation to give asylum to foreigners fleeing a terrifying situation, and the country's infrastructure to accommodate them, there are some realistic political, physical, and social problems to deal with.  I don't think any government acts under a belief that no matter how many refugees show up, they are morally obligated to take care of them all.  There are strains that the system will have to endure, and at some point the strains break the system.  And then a whole new set of moral questions show up.  Is a country obligated to take care of its citizens that have worked to support it?

How did Europe cope with these problems in the past?  This situation is certainly not new, although it does appear to be more massive, but how can it be so massive when the vast proportion of Muslims supposedly disagree with Isis.  With Isis representing such a teensy minority, where do they get the vast numbers of supporters that allow them to wield that much power?  Something doesn't add up.

QuoteSomething doesn't add up.

It will, once you understand Islam.

What ISIS the Taleban Boko Haram etc. are doing is pure orthodox Islam, as it was in Muhammad's time.
With Muhammad as the best example for Muslims, there cannot be any dissent or discussion, let alone opposition to the teachings of Islam.

That is why the wast majority of "moderate" Muslims are silent.
They simply want to see the sun rise next morning with their heads still attached.

Quote from: SGOS on October 17, 2015, 07:30:02 AM
For what it's worth, I was talking to my sister and brother-in-law the other day.  They were planning a trip to Sweden, but my brother-in-law doesn't do anything without researching it in depth before hand.  They decided not to go, because they were left with the impression that things are becoming chaotic there.  Apparently Sweden was gearing up to accommodate an estimated 10,000 refugees, but it turns out they are getting something like 5,000 per week, and they are not prepared to adequately handle that kind of influx.

Somewhere between a country's moral obligation to give asylum to foreigners fleeing a terrifying situation, and the country's infrastructure to accommodate them, there are some realistic political, physical, and social problems to deal with.  I don't think any government acts under a belief that no matter how many refugees show up, they are morally obligated to take care of them all.  There are strains that the system will have to endure, and at some point the strains break the system.  And then a whole new set of moral questions show up.  Is a country obligated to take care of its citizens that have worked to support it?

How did Europe cope with these problems in the past?  This situation is certainly not new, although it does appear to be more massive, but how can it be so massive when the vast proportion of Muslims supposedly disagree with Isis.  With Isis representing such a teensy minority, where do they get the vast numbers of supporters that allow them to wield that much power?  Something doesn't add up.

I believe that it is recognized that a country has the right to limit the number of new comers, be that they are immigrants or refugees. One of the major, major problem with Europe is that there isn't a central government. Think of the 50 states in the USA, each one being a sovereign state. How would that work? Now the EU has been brewing over and over in regard to what it is supposed to stand for. I believe that this crisis will compel the Europeans to rethink as to whether they will move towards greater integration with some sort of a central government or each country will have to go its own way. The present situation makes it almost impossible to deal with this crisis.

QuoteThat is why the wast majority of "moderate" Muslims are silent.
They simply want to see the sun rise next morning with their heads still attached.

Except, you know, they aren't...

[lmgtfy]Muslims Against Terrorism[/lmgtfy]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/01/02/why-dont-more-moderate-muslims-denounce-extremism/

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/08/12/why-muslims-hate-terrorism-more.html

 Sweden Close to Collapse  (http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/6697/sweden-collapse)

QuoteSweden is fast approaching a complete collapse. More and more municipalities are raising the alarm that if the migrants keep coming at this pace, the government can no longer guarantee normal service to its citizens. In addition, ominous statements from government officials have left Swedes in fear of what tomorrow may bring. If the migrant wave keeps coming, in 10-15 years, Swedes will be a minority in their own country.

At a press conference October 9, Prime Minister Stefan Löfven said that Sweden is in a state of crisis. However, when asked to clarify what he meant by this, Löfven was unable to produce a single coherent sentence.

Three ministers appeared by the Prime Minister's side at the hastily summoned press conference, which came on the heels of an extraordinary government meeting. The purpose of the press conference seems to have been to convey two messages:

    To explain to the world and the Swedish people that Sweden is facing "one of the largest humanitarian efforts in Swedish history."
    That there is no more housing available, and migrants should be prepared to live in tents.

During the question period after the ministers' speeches, journalist Tomas Ramberg of Ekot Public Radio asked: "You say that Sweden is preparing for a crisis situation, what do you mean by those dramatic words?"

Stefan Löfven's reply was incomprehensible:

    "Yes, well first of all we, we are in the middle of what I mean seriously when I'm saying, when I express a, a big thank you to all the people doing such a great job, because it is a humanitarian effort, it's just as the Minister for Justice and Migration just said. What we are actually doing is that we are saving lives when people who come from bombs, from, from killing, from oppression, their lives are shattered. We, we help them and that is a, that is a great humanitarian effort, and of course now that we can see the number of people who need it, that are seeking protection, then it is one of the greatest humanitarian efforts. And that we are facing a crisis situation, that is in part why I, we are outlining today that we are also preparing for a situation where we may need to house people in tents, because we stand up with the humanitarian refugee policy, right of asylum, but we can now also see that we cannot close our eyes to the fact that there are more coming than ever in such a short time, and we need to provide a roof over their heads. Then it is -- other things may be required."

However, the fact that the government is now talking about housing migrants in tents, may be a signal that Sweden, despite everything, may not want to be on the front lines of the "humanitarian" battle anymore, after all. The prospect of spending an ice-cold Swedish winter in a tent may make migrants choose countries other than Sweden. If not, a complete collapse of the Swedish system is imminent.

Quote from: pr126 on October 17, 2015, 09:55:02 AM
Sweden Close to Collapse  (http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/6697/sweden-collapse)

Thanks for the link.  I suspected the situation was worse than my brother-in-law described, because he tends to understate things matter-of-factly.

More or less the same in all western Europe.

When the money runs  out watch the fireworks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZ-QX8LuKHA

Quote from: pr126 on October 17, 2015, 10:59:37 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZ-QX8LuKHA

WTF


You see this is the thing that is wrong in the UK. If those demonstrations had taken place in the US, these people would have been put in their places. I'm surprised that the Brits seem to be so complacent.

In the Million Muslim March, organized in Washington DC in 2013, it was met with  the '2 Million Bikers to DC' counter-protest. Only a few dozens showed up for the first, an estimate 75,000 for the latter.

Quote from: Shiranu on October 17, 2015, 07:57:46 AM
Except, you know, they aren't...

[lmgtfy]Muslims Against Terrorism[/lmgtfy]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/01/02/why-dont-more-moderate-muslims-denounce-extremism/

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/08/12/why-muslims-hate-terrorism-more.html

A video for you, Shiranu  SJW  (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=SJW) extraordinaire.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ry3NzkAOo3s

Quote from: pr126 on October 17, 2015, 10:28:34 AM
More or less the same in all western Europe.

When the money runs  out watch the fireworks.

There is more than one way for the money to run out ... but paying for large number of refugees can't help.  How long will the US hold out when the dollar is toilet paper?  We won't be able to pay our military either.  It may be that ... Europe is the test case ... of turning most of the world into Zimbabwe.  There could be ... much larger plots than just over-running Europe with refugees formerly in Turkey.

Quote from: Baruch on October 17, 2015, 11:24:29 AM
How long will the US hold out when the dollar is toilet paper?  We won't be able to pay our military either.  It may be that ... Europe is the test case ... of turning most of the world into Zimbabwe. 

There is little risk of the type of hyperinflation that plagued Zimbabwe: interest rate and inflation rate are at historically lows.

Quote from: SGOS on October 17, 2015, 07:30:02 AM
For what it's worth, I was talking to my sister and brother-in-law the other day.  They were planning a trip to Sweden, but my brother-in-law doesn't do anything without researching it in depth before hand.  They decided not to go, because they were left with the impression that things are becoming chaotic there.  Apparently Sweden was gearing up to accommodate an estimated 10,000 refugees, but it turns out they are getting something like 5,000 per week, and they are not prepared to adequately handle that kind of influx.

Somewhere between a country's moral obligation to give asylum to foreigners fleeing a terrifying situation, and the country's infrastructure to accommodate them, there are some realistic political, physical, and social problems to deal with.  I don't think any government acts under a belief that no matter how many refugees show up, they are morally obligated to take care of them all.  There are strains that the system will have to endure, and at some point the strains break the system.  And then a whole new set of moral questions show up.  Is a country obligated to take care of its citizens that have worked to support it?

How did Europe cope with these problems in the past?  This situation is certainly not new, although it does appear to be more massive, but how can it be so massive when the vast proportion of Muslims supposedly disagree with Isis.  With Isis representing such a teensy minority, where do they get the vast numbers of supporters that allow them to wield that much power?  Something doesn't add up.

Well there's the subterfuge war for influence between the NATO and Russia using assad and the rebels as proxy. There's also a lot of arabs using the opportunity to migrate to the country with the best welfare.

Quote from: josephpalazzo on October 17, 2015, 11:15:02 AM
WTF


You see this is the thing that is wrong in the UK. If those demonstrations had taken place in the US, these people would have been put in their places. I'm surprised that the Brits seem to be so complacent.

In the Million Muslim March, organized in Washington DC in 2013, it was met with  the '2 Million Bikers to DC' counter-protest. Only a few dozens showed up for the first, an estimate 75,000 for the latter.

what I do not understand is that britain has this retarded hate speech laws , those guys are clearly breaking them, they should be prosecuted (or maybe that protest was before those laws were made?)

Quote from: josephpalazzo on October 17, 2015, 01:56:54 PM
There is little risk of the type of hyperinflation that plagued Zimbabwe: interest rate and inflation rate are at historically lows.

Bwahaha ... laughing all the way to the bank ;-)

Quote from: mauricio on October 17, 2015, 02:45:48 PM
what I do not understand is that britain has this retarded hate speech laws , those guys are clearly breaking them, they should be prosecuted (or maybe that protest was before those laws were made?)

Yep, I'd like to se pr answer that question as he is closer to that than we are.

Quote from: mauricio on October 17, 2015, 02:45:48 PM
what I do not understand is that britain has this retarded hate speech laws , those guys are clearly breaking them, they should be prosecuted (or maybe that protest was before those laws were made?)

Selective enforcement ... they had a really bad imam some years ago, and they let him circulate hate for years.  The US is good at selective enforcement also.  And there is always the dark possibility, that some of these guys are MI6 agent provocateurs.  The FBI has done a lot of that since 9/11 ... most plots uncovered are idiots who were put up to it by FBI agents.

Quote from: Baruch on October 17, 2015, 02:56:58 PM
Bwahaha ... laughing all the way to the bank ;-)

Not wise. If interest are at historical low, you want to put your money in the stock exchange or real estate.

Quote from: josephpalazzo on October 17, 2015, 02:59:29 PM
Not wise. If interest are at historical low, you want to put your money in the stock exchange or real estate.

Don't make me laugh so hard, you are giving me a cardiac ... erh ... (drops to floor)

Quote from: Baruch on October 17, 2015, 03:00:40 PM
Don't make me laugh so hard, you are giving me a cardiac ... erh ... (drops to floor)

Hey, that advice was free. Go to a financial advisor for the same advice and you're going to be a few hundred dollars short.

Quote from: josephpalazzo on October 17, 2015, 03:09:10 PM
Hey, that advice was free. Go to a financial advisor for the same advice and you're going to be a few hundred dollars short.

And you never heard that free advice is worth what you pay for it?  I suppose that was originally about hiring legal representation.

I never practice as a financial advisor, without a license ... other than ...

1. Nobody can predict the future ... therefore ...
2. Diversify, diversify, diversify

Quote from: Baruch on October 17, 2015, 03:12:49 PM
And you never heard that free advice is worth what you pay for it?  I suppose that was originally about hiring legal representation.

I never practice as a financial advisor, without a license ... other than ...

1. Nobody can predict the future ... therefore ...
2. Diversify, diversify, diversify

Number 2 is the advice I gave you, moron.

Quote from: josephpalazzo on October 17, 2015, 03:15:42 PM
Number 2 is the advice I gave you, moron.

So to summarize the next couple of posts, to save time ...

P: I told you so
B: No you didn't
P: Yes I did
B: You are repeating yourself
P: #$##%#

Quote from: Baruch on October 17, 2015, 03:18:52 PM
So to summarize the next couple of posts, to save time ...

P: I told you so
B: No you didn't
P: Yes I did
B: You are repeating yourself
P: #$##%# FUCK YOU.

:lol:

Josephpalazzo wrote:

QuoteI'm surprised that the Brits seem to be so complacent.

It is not complacency. It is fear.
On one side from Muslims, on the other the government who is clamping down on any dissent against Muslims / Islam.
The government is also afraid of Muslims. They cannot control them anymore.

It is all about numbers. 
When Muslims become a  critical mass,  (http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/6707744/Re_When_The_Muslim_Population_) they will become uncontrollable and become the controllers.

Quote from: pr126 on October 18, 2015, 02:08:05 AM
Josephpalazzo wrote:It is not complacency. It is fear.
On one side from Muslims, on the other the government who is clamping down on any dissent against Muslims / Islam.
The government is also afraid of Muslims. They cannot control them anymore.

It is all about numbers. 
When Muslims become a  critical mass,  (http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/6707744/Re_When_The_Muslim_Population_) they will become uncontrollable and become the controllers.

Quote100% will usher in the peace of "Dar-es-Salaam" -- the Islamic House of Peace -- there's supposed to be peace because everybody is a Muslim:
Afghanistan -- Muslim 100%
Saudi Arabia -- Muslim 100%
Somalia -- Muslim 100%
Yemen -- Muslim 99.9%

Many people hear "Religion of peace," and assume that is a description of Islam, or they apologize for the violent nature of Islam by saying the vast majority of Muslims are peaceful (and that Islam is therefore peaceful).  Of course it is not peaceful at all.  One only has to look at Islam to see the violence in it, whether it's jihad, stoning, beating, or replacing a regime.  The fact is that many people are peaceful, some of them happen to be Muslim, but that doesn't make Islam peaceful.  The religion is not.

When I hear "Religion of peace" I first wonder where this notion comes from, especially in light of all the violence that permeates many Islamic societies.  I assume it represents a utopian ideal of some sort in some theoretical utopian world, because it cannot be a description of Islam historically or in the present.  So I assume it speaks to some future goal, when everyone is finally crushed under the heavy boot of Islamic oppression.  Then when everyone is in compliance and infidels cleansed or purged from existence, peace ensues.  But only in theory of course.  "Religion of peace" is not a reality.

Quote from: SGOS on October 18, 2015, 07:56:01 AM
  "Religion of peace" is not a reality.

It's the end goal.

Quote from: SGOS on October 18, 2015, 07:56:01 AM


Many people hear "Religion of peace," and assume that is a description of Islam, or they apologize for the violent nature of Islam by saying the vast majority of Muslims are peaceful (and that Islam is therefore peaceful).  Of course it is not peaceful at all.  One only has to look at Islam to see the violence in it, whether it's jihad, stoning, beating, or replacing a regime.  The fact is that many people are peaceful, some of them happen to be Muslim, but that doesn't make Islam peaceful.  The religion is not.

When I hear "Religion of peace" I first wonder where this notion comes from, especially in light of all the violence that permeates many Islamic societies.  I assume it represents a utopian ideal of some sort in some theoretical utopian world, because it cannot be a description of Islam historically or in the present.  So I assume it speaks to some future goal, when everyone is finally crushed under the heavy boot of Islamic oppression.  Then when everyone is in compliance and infidels cleansed or purged from existence, peace ensues.  But only in theory of course.  "Religion of peace" is not a reality.

And the gawd of love, and is there not just that same ambition laid out in the bable? Yes I know it is only a small minority of christards that believe in that and we are good at ignoring our own history, and it is so easy to see the other as not being like we are but as some sort of evil monolith. After all that is just how religion, all religion works.

Are you not just being sucked back in with stories of bogeymen?

The first time i heard the phrase religion of peace was around the time the Americans were bombing Afghanis back to primordial age. Or maybe when they were doing that to the iraqis. I think the american government used that phrase, the religion of peace.
kinda felt like it was just made popular so that it doesn't look like america was at war with 25% of human population.

Of course islam is no religion of peace, it loves glorifying its past conquest and victories.

Quote from: josephpalazzo on October 18, 2015, 08:08:14 AM
It's the end goal.

End goal of whom.   :huh:

If you are asking if I see Christianity as a better religion than Islam, the answer is no.  Any comparisons you want to make (or differences you wish to debunk) are red herrings.  I'm talking about Islam, because that's what this thread is about.

Quote
Are you not just being sucked back in with stories of bogeymen?

I don't think so.  Islam is not a bogeyman.  It is real.  It's the mother of bad ideas founded on a charlatan's claim that he speaks with authority from God.  And it spreads.  It uses violence to spread, and it reacts to criticism with violence.

(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff277/josephpalazzo/Cartoon-syrian-refugees-saudi-arabia1.jpg) (http://s243.photobucket.com/user/josephpalazzo/media/Cartoon-syrian-refugees-saudi-arabia1.jpg.html)

 Useful Idiots?  (http://gatesofvienna.net/2015/10/immigration-idiocy-would-appear-to-be-gender-neutral/)

(http://gatesofvienna.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/wilkommenskultur.jpg)

Sad that many volunteers end up being the victim of violent acts from the very people they are helping.

Quote from: josephpalazzo on October 20, 2015, 11:47:01 AM
Sad that many volunteers end up being the victim of violent acts from the very people they are helping.

They are coming from a violent culture where this is normal everyday  behaviour.
We in the west think every culture is the same. No, it is not.

"Migrants" of any ethnicity in this numbers is bound to be trouble. Naturally they will cluster together which makes further diversification into the host country nearly impossible and those within the group will want to usurp the local governing body in favor of their more familiar rules and certainly more than one will opt for the power to speak for all. This is the recipe written directly from the books and has little positive outlook.

Quote from: aitm on October 20, 2015, 12:03:14 PM
"Migrants" of any ethnicity in this numbers is bound to be trouble. Naturally they will cluster together which makes further diversification into the host country nearly impossible and those within the group will want to usurp the local governing body in favor of their more familiar rules and certainly more than one will opt for the power to speak for all. This is the recipe written directly from the books and has little positive outlook.

Add to that a supremacist totalitarian religion and you have the perfect storm.

Mind you I do enjoy a good curry down Brick lane, a pint in the Blind beggar pub, then a good bit of street art,
and then buy and take home some seafood from tubby Isaac's seafood stall. Yes its like so dangerous in the East end near the Mosque, I truly wonder how we Londoners manage to survive. 

Quote from: pr126 on October 20, 2015, 11:58:53 AM
They are coming from a violent culture where this is normal everyday  behaviour.
We in the west think every culture is the same. No, it is not.

In the US, the immigrants are more willing to integrate. They recognize they are in a better place and are grateful to be here. Of course, there are some that falls into your criminal activity types, but these are minor. It seems that in Europe, the new arrivals are asking right way certain rights. I'm wondering if this is due to the fact that most European countries have a nanny state, so this kind of setup is perfect for abuse.

Quote from: josephpalazzo on October 20, 2015, 02:23:52 PM
In the US, the immigrants are more willing to integrate. They recognize they are in a better place and are grateful to be here. Of course, there are some that falls into your criminal activity types, but these are minor. It seems that in Europe, the new arrivals are asking right way certain rights. I'm wondering if this is due to the fact that most European countries have a nanny state, so this kind of setup is perfect for abuse.

That is because they are still relatively small in numbers, compared to Europe which has already over 50 Million Muslims and more to come.
The USA has only 1 % Muslims for now. As their numbers increase in time, the attitude will change.

Quote from: pr126 on October 20, 2015, 02:52:50 PM
That is because they are still relatively small in numbers, compared to Europe which has already over 50 Million Muslims and more to come.
The USA has only 1 % Muslims for now. As their numbers increase in time, the attitude will change.

If you take out Albania, Bosnia-Herzegovinian, Chechnya, Kosovo and Macedonia, where you have large Muslim populations, you're down to less than 20 millions or 2.7% as average out. Granted that the present inflow is considerable and presents serious problems, but if the EU wasn't such a nanny system, the governments  would have more leeway instead of facing absurd demands from the new arrivals. The more rights you give them, the more trouble you'll get as most are not used to these rights and are more likely to abuse them then use them responsibly.

Quote from: pr126 on October 20, 2015, 02:14:10 AM
Useful Idiots?  (http://gatesofvienna.net/2015/10/immigration-idiocy-would-appear-to-be-gender-neutral/)

(http://gatesofvienna.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/wilkommenskultur.jpg)

I do agree this people who naively want to accept all the migrants and refugees without thinking of the consequences or thinking that the only consequence is gonna be a small increase in taxes(yeah throwing money at it surely fixes everything) are idiots and they are useful idiots for those who want to use them. For example the media publishing that picture of a drowned kid, they got what they wanted they stirred the outrage and they got their clicks and sales. Disregard the fact that kids have been dying already in Syria for years. And for the politicians this helps to direct all the attention of people to this dead kid and the feelgood rhetoric of helping the poor refugees while ignoring their foreign policy fucks up, their proxy war going on in syria and the consequences of this mass migration.

All that said the article you linked made questionable statements and it's tone was pretty inflammatory and sensationalist and it simplifies the issue. It is the other side of the coin of the people who claim it is all about the west attacking the middle east countries, no this is a multi-factor issue. The
re's geopolitics but there's also culture, economics, the cycle of violence and Islamism.

It is the immigratophobes that are the problem. Refugees are people and people mirror how they are treated. That so many writes theese posts filled with fear and hatred is very scary. Because it is that fear that will create the problem.

 immigratophobes


Wow! A new phobia has been discovered. Quick, get the medical journals alerted. 

Looks like we have another Social Justice Warrior. 

Quote from: facebook164 on October 21, 2015, 12:35:55 AM
It is the immigratophobes that are the problem. Refugees are people and people mirror how they are treated. That so many writes theese posts filled with fear and hatred is very scary. Because it is that fear that will create the problem.

so, do you not see how this current mass migration can be problematic beyond irrational xenophobic fears?

Also we already have the word xenophobia no need to make up new words.

Quote from: pr126 on October 21, 2015, 01:17:18 AM
immigratophobes


Wow! A new phobia has been discovered. Quick, get the medical journals alerted. 

Looks like we have another Social Justice Warrior.

No it is not a new phobia, it is just pointing to the good old fashioned paranoia you suffer from, and the woo woo you are coming out with is daft.

(http://40.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_kxnscdr7at1qabjbjo1_500.jpg)

Quote from: pr126 on October 21, 2015, 01:17:18 AM
immigratophobes


Wow! A new phobia has been discovered. Quick, get the medical journals alerted. 

Looks like we have another Social Justice Warrior.

So social justice is not important?

I

facebook164 wrote:

QuoteSo social justice is not important?

Are you are demanding social justice from the  the "Muslim World" as well,  where minorities and women are treated less than human?
How about social justice for them?

How about you, Shiranu? Do you care?

Quote from: facebook164 on October 21, 2015, 03:22:56 AM
So social justice is not important?

I

Social justice warrior is an ironic term. http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/social-justice-warrior

Also care to answer my question, do you not see how this current mass migration can be problematic beyond irrational xenophobic fears?

here you have the SJW is his natural habitat the brainless swamp known as twitter, making an ass out of himself.

(http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/916/905/ab0.jpg)

Gotta love those leaps in logic.

Quote from: facebook164 on October 21, 2015, 12:35:55 AM
It is the immigratophobes that are the problem. Refugees are people and people mirror how they are treated. That so many writes theese posts filled with fear and hatred is very scary. Because it is that fear that will create the problem.

To narrow down the refugee crisis to fear is a little simplistic, wouldn't you think? There are many problems to this issue such as providing shelter, food, education, working skills, and a path to integration, not easy in ordinary times, and a humongus problem when the influx of new arrivals exceed the capacity of the host country. Taking into consideration that many of these new arrivals have a worldview totally different from the people in the host country, and you have the ingredients of a social, political bomb in the making.

Quote from: mauricio on October 21, 2015, 03:50:17 AM
Social justice warrior is an ironic term. http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/social-justice-warrior

Also care to answer my question, do you not see how this current mass migration can be problematic beyond irrational xenophobic fears?

No. Not "beyond irrational xenophobic fears" because they will never come near them. And besides its the "irrational xenophobic fears" that are the main problem. (As the current burning down of shelters show)

Quote from: facebook164 on October 21, 2015, 05:53:32 AM
No. Not "beyond irrational xenophobic fears" because they will never come near them. And besides its the "irrational xenophobic fears" that are the main problem. (As the current burning down of shelters show)

Sources please

You have sidestepped the mistreatement of Muslim Women and the minorities in Muslim lands. Why? Don't they matter?

Quote from: josephpalazzo on October 21, 2015, 05:48:05 AM
To narrow down the refugee crisis to fear is a little simplistic, wouldn't you think? There are many problems to this issue such as providing shelter, food, education, working skills, and a path to integration, not easy in ordinary times, and a humongus problem when the influx of new arrivals exceed the capacity of the host country. Taking into consideration that many of these new arrivals have a worldview totally different from the people in the host country, and you have the ingredients of a social, political bomb in the making.

Of course there will be problem. Tgere is always problems. But the refugees is not the bomb. It is the nazis, faschist and other fearmongers.

QuoteOne day millions of men will leave the southern hemisphere of this planet to burst into the northern one; but not as friends, because they will burst in to conquer, and they will conquer by populating it with their children. Victory will come to us from the wombs of our women.

â€" Houri Boumediene, Chairman of the Revolutionary Council of Algeria stated at the United Nations General Assembly 1974

MEMRI Video  (http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/5076.htm)

Transscript:

QuoteSheikh Muhammad Ayed: "(The infidels) want us to be tormented. They want us to be humiliated. (The Quran) says: Tthe Jews and the Christians will never be pleased with you,' but we will never follow their religion. This dark night will be over, and soon, we will trample them underfoot, Allah willing. Germany is not a compassionate country that wishes to absorb refugees from Syria and Iraq, and Palestinian refugees in the Levant and elsewhere. Europe has become old and decrepit, and needs human reinforcement. No force is more powerful than the human force of us Muslims. Oh Muslims, the Germans say, in their economic reports, that they need 50,000 young workers. Now, they have got 20,000, and they want another 30,000 and more, to work in their factories. They are not motivated by compassion for the Levant, its people, and its refugees. Throughout Europe, all the hearts are infused with hatred toward Muslims. They wish that we were dead. But they have lost their fertility, so they look for fertility in their midst. We will give them fertility! We will breed children with them, because we shall conquer their countries â€" whether you like it or not, oh Germans, oh Americans, oh French, oh Italians, and all those like you. Take the refugees! We shall soon collect them in the name of the coming Caliphate. We will say to you: These are our sons. Send them, or we will send our armies to you."

Quote from: facebook164 on October 21, 2015, 05:56:37 AM
Of course there will be problem. Tgere is always problems. But the refugees is not the bomb. It is the nazis, faschist and other fearmongers.

And you're not helping by stirring the pot with name-calling. People in those countries have reason to fear that their leaders, often corrupted politicians, will not be doing the job that is needed to be done. And as taxpayers, they will end up paying a price far too high.

face164 wrote:

QuoteOf course there will be problem. Tgere is always problems. But the refugees is not the bomb. It is the nazis, faschist and other fearmongers.

You left out the Joooos!

facebook 164? What a coincidence.

164 Jihad Verses in the Koran  (http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Themes/jihad_passages.html)

Quote from: josephpalazzo on October 21, 2015, 06:08:17 AM
And you're not helping by stirring the pot with name-calling. People in those countries have reason to fear that their leaders, often corrupted politicians, will not be doing the job that is needed to be done. And as taxpayers, they will end up paying a price far too high.

Namecalling? I call them by their true color. 

And really? You think corrupt politicians is the probkem? So unbased rumors of possible corruption is what you base your fearmongering on.... Nice.

Quote from: pr126 on October 21, 2015, 06:25:57 AM
face164 wrote:You left out the Joooos!

facebook 164? What a coincidence.

164 Jihad Verses in the Koran  (http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Themes/jihad_passages.html)

What the f---- is wrong with you?

He has Muzzies under his bed ;-)

Meanwhile the evil Mo Farah makes his commercials propagating vegetarianism,

https://youtu.be/FCHpHU2fK3E

And secretly hides his true intentions of instigating a revolution and beheading all non muslims.

Quote from: facebook164 on October 21, 2015, 07:21:18 AM
Namecalling? I call them by their true color.

... says the guy who is full of hate and a warped vision of the world. 

QuoteAnd really? You think corrupt politicians is the problem?

How old are you? Five years old??

QuoteSo unbased rumors of possible corruption is what you base your fearmongering on.... Nice.

LOL, get a grip and do some reading. Europe is awash with corrupt politicians.

Quote from: facebook164 on October 21, 2015, 07:21:54 AM
What the f---- is wrong with you?

You still evading the question about the mistreatment of women and minorities in Muslim lands.
One and a half billion Muslims, a half of them are women. That is a lot of ignored "social justice" from you and your ilk.

Interersting detail: the vast majortity of the migrants are able bodied military age males. 
Why would "refugees" fleeing for their lives leave their families behind in the war zone?
Why run away instead staying there and  sorting out their countries problems?

 Iranian Converts to Christianity In Migrant Camp, Beaten Unconscious With Baton By Afghan  (http://www.breitbart.com/london/2015/10/20/iranian-converts-to-christianity-in-migrant-camp-beaten-unconscious-with-baton-by-afghan/)

QuoteAn Iranian economic migrant in Hamburg, Germany might just have become a genuine refugee after converting to Christianity.

The Iranian national, 24, was left “seriously injured” after being set upon by an Afghan migrant on Sunday in a refugee camp in Hamburg-Eidelstedt, Die Welt reports. Police said the man was beaten with a telescopic baton, with the Afghan responsible declaring that conversion was a “sin.”

The Iranian is thought to have told some Afghan migrants a few days prior to the attack that he had embraced Christianity once in Germany.

The young Iranian man was left unconscious, and 15 to 20 people stepped in to pull the attacker away and protect the convert.

The State Protection Department in the Office of Criminal Investigation is reported to be looking into the incident.

Earlier in the month Breitbart London reported on the first comprehensive social and scientific study on violence in migrant centres in Germany has revealed that conflict is part of “everyday life” for inhabitants and is likely to increase.

The “ultimate and primary cause” was ethnic and religious tensions, researchers said.

Researcher also identified widespread drug and alcohol use as contributing to domestic violence, which was identified in every facility investigated.

“Violent behaviour and aggressive verbal confrontations, threats or insults and serious damage to property were very commonly reported, indicating they are part of everyday life in the hired accommodation,” wrote researchers, who interviewed home managers, employees and randomly selected residents in almost all collective accommodation in Brandenburg.

Clashes at a migrant camp near the central German city of Kassel on left 14 people injured, including three policeman, on septemper 28th.

On October 7th, in a single day, around three hundred migrants brawled in a migrant centre in Braunschweig; Algerians fought Syrians in violence purportedly sparked by a theft.

There was also a brawl in Hamburg where iron bars were used as weapons, and a rapid police response only narrowly averted another mass brawl in Oisterwijk.

Meanwhile Shappi Khorsandi puts up the pretence of cultures mixing and bides her time until the moment when

https://youtu.be/94UOdDAyi4I

There are enough people from Islamic countries to create the Caliphate and impose the suppression of women.

Quote from: jonb on October 21, 2015, 10:34:12 AM
Meanwhile Shappi Khorsandi puts up the pretence of cultures mixing and bides her time until the moment when

There are enough people from Islamic countries to create the Caliphate and impose the suppression of women.

She is doing this performance in the UK.
Could she do this in Mosul or Raqqa? In Pakistan? In Saudi Arabia? In Afghanistan? In Iran? Dressed like this?
Without getting stoned? I think not. 

It never even crossed your mind. 

You are saying that soon this won't be done in London, that is where we disagree, the bollox you are propagating that people from Islamic cultures are colluding to make that the case. What all of them, even you must see how mad that conspiracy is?

Meanwhile Imran Yusuf waits for the day,

https://youtu.be/95_NERPE94U

when he can play his part in imposing Islamic rule in Britain.

jonb wrote:

QuoteYou are saying that soon this won't be done in London, that is where we disagree, the bollox you are propagating that people from Islamic cultures are colluding to make that the case. What all of them, even you must see how mad that conspiracy is?

No, I did not say any of the kind. I said the she could not do the same in the countries I mentioned.
That is all. Read my post again. London was not mentioned.

Quote from: pr126 on October 21, 2015, 12:03:04 PM
No, I did not say any of the kind. I said the she could not do the same in the countries I mentioned.
That is all. Read my post again. London was not mentioned.

I have read the whole thread and others with your contributions, not just one post. I have a clear image of your intentions, and choose to refute them as a whole, thank you very much.  We are talking about refugees into Europe and I am addressing your guff about what will happen to Britain, not the flip flopping words you use in one post to try to defend a sticky wicket.

Meanwhile for those that follow Cricket, ex-England and Essex Captain Nasser Hussain

https://youtu.be/Pht2ApNG53U

does his bit to overthrow the backbone of English culture and bring about the Caliphate.

[jonb wrote:

QuoteI have a clear image of your intentions, and choose to refute them as a whole, thank you very much.

Go for it. Knock yoursef out.

Quote from: jonb on October 21, 2015, 07:55:51 AM
Meanwhile the evil Mo Farah makes his commercials propagating vegetarianism,

...

And secretly hides his true intentions of instigating a revolution and beheading all non muslims.

Hitler was a vegetarian.  So this Mo Farah chap must be a Nazi too?

Quote from: facebook164 on October 21, 2015, 05:53:32 AM
No. Not "beyond irrational xenophobic fears" because they will never come near them.

what does this mean? who will never come near them? who are this "them"?

Quote from: pr126 on October 21, 2015, 12:43:16 PM
Go for it. Knock yoursef out.

Luckily I don't have to, every atheist knows if you come along with a daft proposition like, there is a section of people 22.32% of the world population, that it is impossible to reach an understanding with and that these people one in five of every person on earth all have the single intention to impose their rule on the rest of the world in the most fanatical way possible that most of them are fighting against, you have to prove it. All I am doing is the usual atheist thing of laughing at you and in showing people with mixed cultural backgrounds where your gawd does not exist.

Meanwhile Konnie Huq British children's TV presenter does her bit to expose

https://youtu.be/IGvrHKce1Iw

lifestyles in the Caliphate of Sweden to British children and bring about ISIS rule.

Quote from: pr126 on October 21, 2015, 08:45:11 AM
Why run away instead staying there and  sorting out their countries problems?

Because there is no "there" to stay. You may have heard that there is a war in syria?

Quote from: pr126 on October 21, 2015, 10:59:09 AM

She is doing this performance in the UK.
Could she do this in Mosul or Raqqa? In Pakistan? In Saudi Arabia? In Afghanistan? In Iran? Dressed like this?
Without getting stoned? I think not. 

It never even crossed your mind. 

Don't waste your time with an Islamist apologist. That moron would have his head chopped off were he living in any Islamic country. He certainly wouldn't have the luxury of spewing this nonsense in any of those dreadful countries.

Quote from: facebook164 on October 21, 2015, 04:12:04 PM
Because there is no "there" to stay. You may have heard that there is a war in syria?

Why don't you go to those countries and settle their problems instead of preaching your nonsense on this forum.

Quote from: josephpalazzo on October 21, 2015, 04:36:17 PM
Don't waste your time with an Islamist apologist. That moron would have his head chopped off were he living in any Islamic country. He certainly wouldn't have the luxury of spewing this nonsense in any of those dreadful countries.

The following Islamic countries do not have the death penalty showing they are a bit more advanced than America.
Azerbaijan, Côte d'Ivoire, Djibouti, Senegal, Turkey, Turkmenistan.

And by the way my head is still on my shoulders which might surprise you as I have worked in a few Arabian states and been on holiday to a lot of places in north Africa just as a lot of Europeans have done.

You're not just showing your ignorance are you?

QuoteIn 13 countries around the world, all of them Muslim, people who openly espouse atheism or reject the official state religion of Islam face execution under the law, according to a detailed study...

Atheists face death in 13 countries, global discrimination: study (http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/12/10/us-religion-atheists-idUSBRE9B900G20131210)

Yes nicely proving not all muslims are the same.
Prejudice is wrong.

Quote from: josephpalazzo on October 21, 2015, 05:05:57 PM
Atheists face death in 13 countries, global discrimination: study (http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/12/10/us-religion-atheists-idUSBRE9B900G20131210)

Can anyone help me find this law for Pakistan specifically. I haven't been able to find anything. only blasphemy thing seems to be there.

Quote from: CloneKai on October 21, 2015, 05:43:05 PM
Can anyone help me find this law for Pakistan specifically. I haven't been able to find anything. only blasphemy thing seems to be there.

Here's another article that makes it clearer:

http://www.thewire.com/global/2013/12/13-countries-where-atheism-punishable-death/355961/

QuoteAtheists living in 13 countries risk being condemned to death, just for their beliefs (or non-belief) according to a new, comprehensive report from the International Humanist and Ethical Union out on Tuesday. All 13 countries identified by the study are Muslim majority.

The countries that impose these penalties are Afghanistan, Iran, Malaysia, Maldives, Mauritania, Nigeria, Pakistan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, United Arab Emirates and Yemen. With the exception of Pakistan, those countries all allow for capital punishment against apostasy, i.e., the renunciation of a particular religion. Pakistan, meanwhile, imposes the death penalty for blasphemy, which can obviously include disbelief in God.

*** my underlining

Quote from: josephpalazzo on October 21, 2015, 06:55:35 PM
Here's another article that makes it clearer:

http://www.thewire.com/global/2013/12/13-countries-where-atheism-punishable-death/355961/

*** my underlining

O thanks
Ateast there are some protests against the blasphemy law there.
so maybe it will eventually go away

Quote from: CloneKai on October 21, 2015, 07:46:30 PM
O thanks
Ateast there are some protests against the blasphemy law there.
so maybe it will eventually go away

How much control does your government have over the internet? Were you to go on an atheist forum in Pakistan, would the government know? Do you know anyone in Pakistan getting in trouble for going on Atheist websites?

Quote from: josephpalazzo on October 21, 2015, 07:59:01 PM
How much control does your government have over the internet? Were you to go on an atheist forum in Pakistan, would the government know? Do you know anyone in Pakistan getting in trouble for going on Atheist websites?

No, never heard of such issues.
There are actually active Pakistani atheist bloggers and facebook group page too. the government doesn't really seems to mind. the problem seems to be the batshit crazy people here. they go insane very easily, half the time they lynch the accused blasphemers. and that is why there are some discussion about changing the blasphemy laws.
In higher middle class, the neighborhood might know you are an atheist, and you won't have much of an issue (i know of 2 cases).

as for the control over the internet, they didn't have much control over it before banning of youtube and all those porn sites. but now there are rumors that pakistan is taking a leaf out of NSA book and trying to create something similar.

(http://gatesofvienna.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/nodifference.jpg)

True there is no difference the two images have been put together for the single purpose of propaganda.

Meanwhile Idris Rahman blows his saxophone

https://youtu.be/owlcvutaFVs?

to destroy multi cultural London, and bring about the Caliphate where music is banned.

jonb wrote:

QuoteTrue there is no difference the two images have been put together for the single purpose of propaganda.

And what propaganda are you spreading?

Quote from: CloneKai on October 21, 2015, 08:22:32 PM
No, never heard of such issues.
There are actually active Pakistani atheist bloggers and facebook group page too. the government doesn't really seems to mind. the problem seems to be the batshit crazy people here. they go insane very easily, half the time they lynch the accused blasphemers. and that is why there are some discussion about changing the blasphemy laws.
In higher middle class, the neighborhood might know you are an atheist, and you won't have much of an issue (i know of 2 cases).

as for the control over the internet, they didn't have much control over it before banning of youtube and all those porn sites. but now there are rumors that pakistan is taking a leaf out of NSA book and trying to create something similar.

What is the prevailing idea of Pakistanis in regard to the refugee crisis that is going on in the EU? Does it get much coverage in Pakistan's media?

Quote from: josephpalazzo on October 22, 2015, 10:15:58 AM
What is the prevailing idea of Pakistanis in regard to the refugee crisis that is going on in the EU? Does it get much coverage in Pakistan's media?

Don't know, since i am not there right now. only news i get here is international news.

Quote from: pr126 on October 22, 2015, 10:13:38 AM
jonb wrote:And what propaganda are you spreading?

I do it subliminally

https://youtu.be/ITpgYewlwNw

Quote from: CloneKai on October 22, 2015, 10:19:39 AM
Don't know, since i am not there right now. only news i get here is international news.

Would that be due to the government censorship, or is it the norm that the media in Pakistan self-censored so as not to get in trouble with the government?

A Refugee Says: “Don’t Let Any More Refugees Into Germany!”  (http://gatesofvienna.net/2015/10/a-refugee-says-dont-let-any-more-refugees-into-germany/)

Germany is simply unable to handle the processing of the volume of migrants.
There are way too many.
With the winter coming, tents are not a good solution. Where to put them all?

Housing, medical, food, sanitation, schools (altough very few children) welfare etc.
None of this was in place or organised prior to handle such an avalanche of migrants.   

And this is just the first wave. There will be much more, they are already on the way.

An unstoppable flood of people from many countries, only a few are real Syrian refugees.
The rest are opportunitists.

The German authorities will have to work real fast as winter approaches. And definitely, not letting any more refugees at this point in time would be a wise decision. On another note, perhaps Putin will double his efforts to stop the carnage in Syria, and this could help in the sense that Syrians will start to look forward in rebuilding their country and not run away to places like the EU which is badly overrun with too many refugees that it cannot help anymore.

Quote from: josephpalazzo on October 22, 2015, 10:25:57 AM
Would that be due to the government censorship, or is it the norm that the media in Pakistan self-censored so as not to get in trouble with the government?

Na! its just Yahoo news has more international news than pakistani media and i enjoy the funny comments .
i never heard of any real censorship issues involving news or stuffs.

@pr126
I think you will like this

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?455134-Leave-the-west!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:58:

Quote from: CloneKai on October 22, 2015, 11:18:48 AM
@pr126
I think you will like this

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?455134-Leave-the-west!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:58:

''Agreed that the environment is not safe for Muslims in the West and it will get worse but things aren't exactly safe in Muslim countries either and as we approach the end of days, the clash of civilizations is inevitable where Muslims will fight the none Muslims (if we can stop fighting each other first) and everyone will be caught up no matter where they are so is it really worth leaving this country? By living in fear and running way, we are already admitting defeat. Allah(SWT) will always protect us if we truly believe in Him so no worries. Relax bro"

jesus that level of delusion... that is not how the real world works.

Reading that thread is depressing how are this people supposed to survive if they do not seems to even understand what is happening...

Quote from: CloneKai on October 22, 2015, 11:18:48 AM
@pr126
I think you will like this

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?455134-Leave-the-west!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:58:

There are so many contradictions in what they say. For instance, if you believe that your fate is in the hands of a god, then why leave a war torn country??? Allah will take care of you. So why do you worry if you have to leave or not?? Stay in your country and see how it unfolds.

Hijrah, Emigration, originates from when Muhammed left Mekkah and marched with his followers to Yathrib, later renamed Medina, to conquer.
The Islamic calendar starts with the year of the Hijrah.

Furthermore:

Every Muslim by defenition must be a "missionary" for want of a better word.
It is incumbent on Muslims to spread Islam, to do dawah.


This is also acheved by invading or more recently emigrating to the non Muslim lands to spread Islam.
So the call to "leave the west" is contrary to Islamic imperatives.

Let's not forget that these migrants are mostly males, and they will bring their clans after a short time (at the host countries expense) which will increase the numbers of migrants exponentially.


Modern Day Trojan Horse: Al-Hijra, the Islamic Doctrine of Immigration, Accepting Freedom or Imposing Islam?  (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Modern-Day-Trojan-Horse-Immigration-x/dp/0979492955/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1445571602&sr=8-1&keywords=hijra+trojan+horse)

QuoteThe first fundamental principle for the creation of a successfully visible Islamic society is to be separate and distinct... "Sam Solomon and E Al Maqdisi have provided the general Western public a valuable service in publishing this book." Rev Dr Patrick Sookhdeo Director of the Institute for the Study of Islam and Christianity "If only one piece of information pertaining to Muslims and Islam is ever read, it would be this book on Al-Hijra." N Keas Phd Lecturer and Communication Consultant "I hope that every person in the Western world reads it, including the sleeping political elite. This book should bring about a much needed awakening." Geert Wilders MP Chairman Party for Freedom (PVV) Sam Solomon, a convert to Christianity and an expert on Islam, is a senior lecturer and research coordinator, a human rights activist and an advisor to British as well as European parliamentarians. Sam has authored a number of thought-provoking books and numerous articles on Christian Muslim relations. E Al Maqdisi is a prolific writer and debater, an author of some 15 books, and a regular contributor to many Internet sites on this complex subject of Islam and its teachings.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5SszlCvCDM

The women, children and the old are curiously absent from this crowd.
If they were refugees fleeing from a war zone, would they leave their families behind?

Well in olden times there was always employment for young men ... the corvee or enlistment.  And those who don't work, don't eat.  Too bad society has forgotten this ... there is no reason for Europe et al to have unemployed young men.  Too bad freedom has come to mean freedom from responsibility (and yes, European socialism has been a cause).

http://www.thelocal.no/20151023/islamists-recruiting-at-norway-asylum-centres

Islamists recruiting at Norway asylum centres

QuoteRadical Muslims have been trying to recruit at reception centres for recently arrived refugees, Norwegian Police Security Service (PST) warns.


"We have seen signs that extreme Islamists have approached the reception centres and asylum seekers. They have been there to get contacts. Aside from that, it's difficult to say what their specific purpose is," Jørn Presterudstuen from PST told Norwegian news agency NTB.

"We are of course worried about recruitment into radical circles: of course we are worried about every single person that may be recruited by extreme Islamists and their cause."

Torshov reception centre in Oslo confirms that Islamists have visited and spoken to refugees at the centre.

"We had an incident here with an Islamist who has been in Norway for some years. His message was that the West had helped to destroy his homeland and they had to stand together within Islam. It was very important that they continued to go to the mosque and followed the rules, particularly with regard to women," the centre's manager, Hugo Limkjær, said.

When staff at the centre realised that the man was an Islamist, he was removed from the premises.

An employee who did not wish to be named said that asylum seekers from Syria were fearful of the man.

"They were afraid and asked 'Have we come to Europe?'. They said that they had fled from this, the extremism," he told Norwegian broadcaster NRK.

Norway has seen a surge in the number of refugees arriving in recent months, with the the Norwegian Directorate of Immigration stating that their previous prognosis of 20,000 to 25000 asylum seekers in 2015 is too low.

http://www.thelocal.no/20150602/un-quota-refugees-had-terror-links-norway-police

QuoteSeveral refugees sent to Norway under the UN’s quota system turned out to have close links to the terror groups Islamic State (IS) and the al-Nusra Front, Norway’s Police Security Service (PST) has revealed.

According to the service, between five and ten of the 1,000 Syrians chosen to go to Norway by the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR), were discovered to have links to the one of the two terror groups.

“Unfortunately, there are some who try to exploit and abuse the refugee agency,” Police Superintendent Svein Erik Molstad told Norway’s Dagbladet newspaper. “We have discovered more quota refugees with ties to the al-Nusra front and IS,” he said.

PST investigators have so far made two trips to the Middle East,  where it works with Norway’s Foreign Ministry to vet refugees passed to Norway under the UN’s quota system.

According to Molstad, the investigations have also uncovered refugees with backgrounds in Syria’s feared secret police, as well as others suspected of carrying out war crime’s during the country’s ongoing civil war.

Although PST is now working in the Middle East, its officers neither interview nor have other direct contact with prospective refugees.

Dagbladet has also learned of Islamic extremists using refugee reception centres as recruiting grounds for terrorists. 

“It's a scenario we are aware of,” Martin Bernsen, PST’s director told the newspaper.

Dagbladet has information that several people who have received asylum in Norway have later become central in the radicalized Islamic community in the country.

“We can not give any guarantees. Our fear is that one or more terrorists we are not aware of manages to get to Norway,” he said.”

http://www.thelocal.no/20141125/norways-risk-of-terror-never-greater

QuoteIt is more likely than ever a terror attack will strike Norway and police have responded by instructing its officers to carry weapons throughout the Christmas season, said PST on Tuesday.

The Norwegian Police Security Service (Politiets Sikkerhetstjeneste - PST) state there is between a 60 and 90 percent chance that Norway will be exposed to an Islamist terror attack during the next year.

The news was revealed in a secret dossier that PST has sent to the Norwegian government, Dagbladet reported.

Martin Berntsen, Head of information at PST, confirmed to the Norwegian newspaper that the chance is greater for a terror attack to occur then the chance of it not occurring.

Berntsen said: “It is very difficult to evaluate the terror danger in percentage, and how likely it is that an incident will occur in the future.”

PST's evaluations are based on information that the Secret Service has itself uncovered, information from the Norwegian Intelligence Service (E-tjenesten) and from cooperating secret services abroad.

From Tuesday morning, the Norwegian police will carry weapon. The move is in reaction to the increased terror threat against Norway. The police will carry the weapons for four weeks. It is mainly a service pistol, carried in its holster, Dagbladet reported.

Norway has 5,000 PST officers versus 5 or more times that number of refugees and an entirely unknown number of potential present and future terrorists. Just sucking up the manpower from a government by itself is disruptive, and several potential bad outcomes besides, including rioting, crime and so on.

The same has happened among Somali refugees in Minnesota.  The cat doesn't change his spots, and it is stupid to expect him to.  But that doesn't mean we need to kill the cat.  The problem is, we expect things not to change ... and get upset when the inevitable happens.  Someday there may be Chinese folks riding elephants in Norway ... and anybody form this time will find that offensive, and confused by the change in climate.

Think of it in terms of the effort involved and the resources diverted from other needs. And to say "tame the cat" when you have dedicated Islamists continually working to incite unrest, and using any shortfall as a reason to do so, especially in a culture that is so religio-centric that it is infused into every aspect of their existence, you are talking about needing extreme and constant efforts to do so. Not a good scenario for any country or state.

Quote from: pr126 on October 24, 2015, 08:32:55 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5SszlCvCDM

The women, children and the old are curiously absent from this crowd.
If they were refugees fleeing from a war zone, would they leave their families behind?

What a lovely video, the way it changes to a negative image with the cross hairs of gun-sights.

Tell me PR was your intention in posting that to say these people should only ever be treated as targets to be bombed wherever they are or what ever they do?
Or was it to remind us of why they became refugees in the first place?

(http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02775/syria-_2775006b.jpg)
(http://i.ytimg.com/vi/QYmZ5bC4Ic4/maxresdefault.jpg)

@ jonb

I am not morally responsible what Muslims do to each other. You may do so, it's your choice.

Again, the vast majority of "refugees" who incidentally are coming from various  countries, not just Syria, are young able bodied males.
Were they all refugees from war torn Syria,  they would not leave they families behind to die there while they enjoing European hospitality. Would you? I don't know.

Despite of media propaganda aimed to stir emotions and guilt, I do not feel olbiged to respond.
If that bothers you, tough.

Your lack of an answer tells its own story, so I am more than satisfied people can see just what your are.

I did give you an answer, now get off my back.

I was only being polite, letting you know I was satisfied with the words that spilled from you, and because you implied that I maybe dissatisfied with them.
Let me also assure you that I am not at all on your back, surprising as it maybe to many it was never an occupation of mine to press myself into any hairy emigrate Hungarian's back. I cannot think why you may dream up out of the blue such a thing, but if having indigenous Englishmen on your back is your desire, I would suggest that is much more Munch's type of thing, but given you are in your 70's I don't think you will find you are in his league.

Toodle pip old boy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9t_KDGqOmE

 Spielfeld: Nickelsdorf on Steroids  (http://gatesofvienna.net/2015/10/spielfeld-nickelsdorf-on-steroids/)

 

Quote“It is enough! Spielfeld is in a state of emergency! Our mall Wieser has been closed for days. The entire area along the border, all businesses have been closed! Business owners are standing guard on front of their businesses and gave off warning shots and carry pepper spray to defend their stores. Nobody knows when they can get back to work. Everything is dirty. The streets, the autobahn, and the train tracks are full of people. The citizens have begun to buy guns en masse. All of this is reminiscent of a war zone. How is that now WE and OUR existence is in danger???”

There is no refugee crisis. At least not yet. It is still in the making. Hope it is not going to be near where you live.

Maybe except jonb, who would not mind at all. Because it is the right thing to do.

But Sweden has pointed out, that if the other European countries took in as many refugees as they do, proportional to their population, then this can be handled.  But the countries were unprepared.  And unfortunately it probably hasn't peaked.

If Sweden wants to replace her own population with immigrants, it is her doing. Others may not want to follow. Well, Germany looks like does follow.

When, not if the welfare states economies collapse, then the real "refugee crisis" will begin.

Quote from: pr126 on October 26, 2015, 08:08:18 AM
If Sweden wants to replace her own population with immigrants, it is her doing. Others may not want to follow. Well, Germany looks like does follow.

When, not if the welfare states economies collapse, then the real "refugee crisis" will begin.

Which is a matter of economics, not just politics.  Per JoePalazzo ... it is just accounting and bookkeeping .. there is nothing to economics but maths which is never wrong (except in Zimbabwe perhaps).  Have Mr Mario Draghi just print up a trillion Euros .. or a Brussels trillion Euro platinum coin.  This has worked so well for Japan originally, and now for the EU and the US.  If a government says X is real, then it is real .. and don't pay attention to that little boy commenting on the king's nakedness.  As long as Europeans think they have a free lunch ... then they are likely to attract ants and flies to their little picnic.

Quote from: Baruch on October 26, 2015, 12:46:14 PM
Which is a matter of economics, not just politics.  Per JoePalazzo ... it is just accounting and bookkeeping .. there is nothing to economics but maths which is never wrong (except in Zimbabwe perhaps).  Have Mr Mario Draghi just print up a trillion Euros .. or a Brussels trillion Euro platinum coin.  This has worked so well for Japan originally, and now for the EU and the US.  If a government says X is real, then it is real .. and don't pay attention to that little boy commenting on the king's nakedness.  As long as Europeans think they have a free lunch ... then they are likely to attract ants and flies to their little picnic.

:embarrassed:

@ Baruch

Do not ignore the fact that the "refugees" only consume, using the services without contributing to the economy.
Unskilled, do not speak the languages of the host countries, unwilling to learn or assimilate. Their work ethics are non existent.

In effect, they are a burden on the tax payers now, and in the foreseeable future.

Also there is an unemployment problem already due to the weak economy.

We save in postage sending the jizya, they are coming to collect in person.

 Migrants and the Fall of European Civilization  (http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2015/10/migrants_and_the_fall_of_european_civilization.html)

QuoteWhether a massive movement of foreign peoples is a migration, an invasion, or a conquest is a matter of perspective. 

To the ancient Romans and later Romance historians, the migration of Germanic tribes into the empire in the 5th and 6th centuries was a catastrophic foreign invasion.  To the Germanic peoples themselves, it was known as the Volkwanderung (the migration of the people).  There is a profound irony that as waves of Muslim migrants press into Germanic Europe, that the very civilization they are now undermining was created in a series of migrations seen by the civilized people they replaced as an invasion.  And just as Germanic tribal movements proved inexorable against the politically, economically, and morally weakened Roman state (at least in Western Europe), it appears (barring dramatic reversals of policy and will) that the ongoing wave of Muslim migration will inevitably replace European civilization as we know it.  Even more worrisome, if history is any guide, this will happen long before Muslims become a majority there.

Quote from: pr126 on October 26, 2015, 01:26:13 PM
Migrants and the Fall of European Civilization  (http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2015/10/migrants_and_the_fall_of_european_civilization.html)

QuoteWhether a massive movement of foreign peoples is a migration, an invasion, or a conquest is a matter of perspective. 

To the ancient Romans and later Romance historians, the migration of Germanic tribes into the empire in the 5th and 6th centuries was a catastrophic foreign invasion.  To the Germanic peoples themselves, it was known as the Volkwanderung (the migration of the people).  There is a profound irony that as waves of Muslim migrants press into Germanic Europe, that the very civilization they are now undermining was created in a series of migrations seen by the civilized people they replaced as an invasion.  And just as Germanic tribal movements proved inexorable against the politically, economically, and morally weakened Roman state (at least in Western Europe), it appears (barring dramatic reversals of policy and will) that the ongoing wave of Muslim migration will inevitably replace European civilization as we know it.  Even more worrisome, if history is any guide, this will happen long before Muslims become a majority there.

Germany should redirect them to Russia. I'm sure Putin would know what to do with them.

Seems like Putin is going to see them, not inviting them to come see him.

A matter of linguistics ... the Germanic invasions had less impact on Latin colloquial languages than expected ... from France thru to Tunisia and N Italy.  Why was this?  Some speculate it is because the Germans were actually wanting to migrate to assimilate, not conquer ... they recognized superior Roman culture, just not superior Roman politics.  It remains to be seen if the Arabic/Turkic speakers in Germany will feel the same.

Have you thought there might not have been Germanic migrations at all? Or at least not how it is commonly presumed.

I simply do not think the story fits the facts. If any body is interested I will present my view, but there is little point in blasting into thin air otherwise.

Quote from: jonb on October 27, 2015, 05:30:32 AM
Have you thought there might not have been Germanic migrations at all? Or at least not how it is commonly presumed.

I simply do not think the story fits the facts. If any body is interested I will present my view, but there is little point in blasting into thin air otherwise.

Yes, I vote for kicking the conventional narrative in the ass ... but that is just the way I am ;-)

UK next? Doc's warn AIDS TB and diseases eradicated generations ago brought in by migrants (http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/614793/German-hospital-refugees-asylum-seekers-migrants-demand-breaking-point)

QuoteA DOCTOR working in German hospitals has revealed the horrifying chaos which could face the NHS if thousands of migrants from the Middle East manage to reach Britain - including the return of killer diseases eradicated generations ago.

The female anaesthetist said the German health service has been completely overwhelmed by the influx of Muslim asylum-seekers who are REFUSING to be treated by female medics.

In a furious outburst the experienced doctor said hospitals simply cannot cope because so many of the migrants require treatments for diseases long since eradicated in Europe.

She also shockingly claimed migrant parents are abandoning their children at pharmacies across the country after being told that they have to pay a prescription charge for lifesaving drugs.

She also claimed huge numbers of the asylum-seekers have Victorian diseases including TB, which they risk passing on to locals.

Meanwhile, German authorities have been forced to post police at hospitals around the country after others got involved in angry clashes with medics over cultural differences.

The doctor, who wished to remain anonymous, wrote to the press back home in the Czech Republic to express her shock at the "unsustainable" situation which she says is now affecting the medical care received by taxpaying Germans.

She said: "Clinics cannot handle emergencies, so they are starting to send everything to the hospitals.

"Many Muslims are refusing treatment by female staff. Relations between the staff and migrants are going from bad to worse.

"Since last weekend, migrants going to the hospitals must be accompanied by police with K-9 units.

"Many migrants have AIDS, syphilis, open TB and many exotic diseases that we, in Europe, do not know how to treat them.

"If they receive a prescription in the pharmacy, they learn they have to pay cash.

"This leads to unbelievable outbursts, especially when it is about drugs for the children.

"They abandon the children with pharmacy staff with the words: 'So, cure them here yourselves!' So the police are not just guarding the clinics and hospitals, but also large pharmacies."

Another negative aspect of uncontrolled immigration.

Quote from: pr126 on October 28, 2015, 01:37:53 AM

Another negative aspect of uncontrolled immigration.

and thats pretty much what this shit is.

Well, except when the governments know that migrants are coming in mass and what they do to 'fix it'.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcqeoMy-NFk

heres the hard fucking reality, there is no grand plan for migrants, there is no nirvana or ultimate solution. all this will he are the people who were born in these countries being fucked over sideways by their own government, just to try and appear like they are "progressive" to migrants.

I am so fucking glad my boyfriend no longer lives in german, but sad that his own country of birth is doing shit like this.

It is called altruism. You give up your life for someone more deserving.
It is for the greater good. One has to appreciate the bigger picture.

Refugee crisis? You aint' seen nothing yet.

 Germany to send 'tens of thousands' of migrants back to Balkans  (http://www.france24.com/en/20151028-germany-send-tens-thousands-migrants-back-balkans)

QuoteBERLIN (AFP) -

QuoteGermany will send thousands of rejected asylum applicants back to the Balkans in the coming months, the interior minister said Wednesday, as Berlin toughens its stance on economic migrants in the face of a refugee crisis.

"I expect that in the next weeks, the number of repatriations, voluntary returns and deportations will rise significantly," Thomas de Maiziere said.

The Federal Office for Migration and Refugees has been tasked with dealing with "many unresolved asylum applications" before Christmas, said the minister, adding "that means that tens of thousands of rejected asylum seekers from the Balkans would have to leave our country".

"This must be accomplished," he said.

The interior ministry also announced that it would extend border controls until November 13, and possibly for another three months after that.

In a dramatic move that amounted to a de-facto suspension of its membership of the Schengen borders-free zone, Germany on September 13 introduced border controls to try check the overwhelming number of refugees entering the country.

(http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11115/111150904/3807056-8542299604-oh-re.jpg)

Quote from: josephpalazzo on October 22, 2015, 06:51:44 PM
There are so many contradictions in what they say. For instance, if you believe that your fate is in the hands of a god, then why leave a war torn country??? Allah will take care of you. So why do you worry if you have to leave or not?? Stay in your country and see how it unfolds.

I feel sorry for you. I hope you will get better from your hatred and fear.

Quote from: facebook164 on October 29, 2015, 12:18:36 PM
I feel sorry for you. I hope you will get better from your hatred and fear.

Don't know what you are talking about?!?

Top Russian Writer Nikolai Starikov Explains Who Is Behind Europe's Refugee Crisis

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTDlY4o23XA

(http://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/aYwn63V_460s.jpg)

It's a bit inaccurate; should show the U.S./U.K. flag on the export, EU on import... but basic gist is the same.

Could this be a "poison pill" strategy?  In corporate politics, if you don't want to be taken over by another corporation, you can defend by making your corporation less desirable for takeover.  In this case, by taking on unnecessary debt.  If Russia is going to take over W Europe, then if it is filled with Muslim immigrants, this might make taking over W Europe less desirable to the Russians ;-)

Quote from: pr126 on October 29, 2015, 07:30:36 AM
It is called altruism. You give up your life for someone more deserving.
It is for the greater good. One has to appreciate the bigger picture.

Refugee crisis? You aint' seen nothing yet.

That is true. The world must be more open.

Quote from: facebook164 on October 31, 2015, 01:17:03 PM
That is true. The world must be more open.

Let me know when you are going to give up your life, family, home to random immigrants because they are more deserving than you are.

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2015/10/30/nine-new-migrants-scotland-every-baby-born-says-ons-likely-higher/ (http://www.breitbart.com/london/2015/10/30/nine-new-migrants-scotland-every-baby-born-says-ons-likely-higher/)

QuoteNew migrants to Scotland are set to outstrip the number of babies born within the country by nine to one over the next ten years, according to new figures from the Office of National Statistics (ONS). Overall, the UK’s population is expected to grow by nearly 10 million over the next 25 years, with the majority of new arrivals settling in England. However, the estimates are based on figures recorded before the migrant crisis, and are therefore likely to be a gross underestimate.

Quote from: pr126 on October 31, 2015, 01:29:16 PM
Let me know when you are going to give up your life, family, home to random immigrants because they are more deserving than you are.

Oh and that of course has happened so often. We in London remember the hoards of Hungarians in 1956 living in our toilets.
Oh and the total population of Syria is just a bit less than that of Greater London inside the M25.

Quote from: pr126 on October 31, 2015, 01:29:16 PM
Let me know when you are going to give up your life, family, home to random immigrants because they are more deserving than you are.

You need professional help. Take care!

Quote from: facebook164 on October 31, 2015, 01:17:03 PM

QuoteIt is called altruism. You give up your life for someone more deserving.
It is for the greater good. One has to appreciate the bigger picture.

Refugee crisis? You aint' seen nothing yet.

That is true. The world must be more open.

lol what the fuck tell me you are trolling him please...

Quote from: mauricio on October 31, 2015, 04:10:21 PM
That is true. The world must be more open.


lol what the fuck tell me you are trolling him please...

Apparently the notion of territorial integrity ... and national interest ... are lost on him?

Quote from: mauricio on October 31, 2015, 04:10:21 PM
That is true. The world must be more open.


lol what the fuck tell me you are trolling him please...

No. Problem with the world is that we doesnt move around enough. That we doesnt share enough. That we build walls.

Quote from: facebook164 on October 31, 2015, 04:22:37 PM
No. Problem with the world is that we doesnt move around enough. That we doesnt share enough. That we build walls.

Ok but PR statement "It is called altruism. You give up your life for someone more deserving.
It is for the greater good. One has to appreciate the bigger picture." was extremely ironic... and you agreed with it...

Quote from: mauricio on October 31, 2015, 04:32:26 PM
Ok but PR statement "It is called altruism. You give up your life for someone more deserving.
It is for the greater good. One has to appreciate the bigger picture." was extremely ironic... and you agreed with it...

No, just the last part. "You"ve seen nothing yet".

Quote from: facebook164 on October 31, 2015, 04:22:37 PM
No. Problem with the world is that we doesnt move around enough. That we doesnt share enough. That we build walls.

Spoken like a Mongol warrior.  Got horses?

Quote from: Baruch on October 31, 2015, 04:46:23 PM
Spoken like a Mongol warrior.  Got horses?

Its the warloeds that is the problem. Not the warriors.

Herders not liking fences that's where the whole Abrahamic thing started isn't it?

https://youtu.be/Vg5cwSBnyQU

Jonb ... just don't be on the wrong side in an American Broadway musical ;-)  The farmer guy is made out pretty dark compared to the rancher guy.  The dugout that the villain is living in ... that is how my great-grandfather lived ... when he first homesteaded.  He had to build a soddy (above ground house made of dirt) before he could bring his family down to live with him.  My mother's mother was the next to the last kid of 13, and she was born in that soddy (it was better than a dugout I hear).  She had to walk uphill thru a snowstorm ... both ways ... to get to school.  They didn't even have a teacher who could speak English, until she was in the third grade ;-)  Her folks only spoke Czech at home.  Of course that is all gone now, but my grandmother described it to me in my youth.  I have seen a photo of my grandmother and siblings on a hay wagon (horse drawn) from around the time of WW I.  Not everyone could make it as a cowboy though ... one of my great-grandfathers tried though.

QuoteNo, just the last part. "You"ve seen nothing yet".

Just to clarify.

The flow of migration doesn't stop. It will continue year after year.
Hundreds of thousands of young military age Muslim men, who will not assimilate, aggressive, with an alien culture keep arriving in Europe.

Why now? Why Germany?

The Syrian uncivil war has been raging since 2011. The migrants are coming from all over the place, not just Syria.

The whole migration seems to be well organized, well executed.

Cui bono? 

Not Europe where the welfare will dry out, destroys social order,  crime, rape, even a prospect of civil war?

That is what I meant you ain't seen nothing yet. Because trouble is coming. Big time.

First problem: where to put all these people? And those who will be still coming?
And what about the "family reunification" at a later date?

Quote from: pr126 on November 01, 2015, 12:40:01 AM
The whole migration seems to be well organized, well executed.

You are paranoid.

Quote from: facebook164 on November 01, 2015, 02:14:51 AM
You are paranoid.

You are denying reality. Most people do. Especially those in power.

Quote from: pr126 on November 01, 2015, 02:18:58 AM
You are denying reality. Most people do. Especially those in power.

Many curious things happen.  And are fodder for Conspiracy Theories.  Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar ... and sometimes it is a CIA plot to kill Castro.

 M-Day: The Invasion of the West  (http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2015/11/mday_the_invasion_of_the_west.html)

QuoteDeputy Chief executive of the Human Relief Foundation (HRF), Kassim Tokan, seems puzzled by the fact that many of these claimants come from “certain countries, which are safe, [where] they can work.”  Another report reveals that approximately 90 per cent of the Muslim “refugees” from “certain countries,” packing a train from Budapest to Vienna, were men between the ages of 18-45, who threatened, beat and stole from other passengers -- a harbinger of things to come. The mayhem they will visit upon the West -- which German Chancellor Angela Merkel ludicrously deems an “opportunity” based on “the principles of dignity, human rights and the right to political asylum” -- will be nothing short of cataclysmic.

But the malignant farce goes on. Syrian migrants are now suing the Berlin state government for lagging on benefit payments. Carol Brown provides some of the details of the German catastrophe: school children have been indentured to clean up garbage and human waste in public places; trains are out of service until they can be disinfected; girls have to cover up lest the invaders be offended or lose control of themselves; and mysterious illnesses have begun to circulate. Thomas Lifson has re-posted a video of these Muslim interlopers showing them trashing the free housing they received, a handsel of what Europe may look like in the course of time. The graphic images of the Austrian town of Nickelsdorf, mounded with refuse and smeared with fecal matter, present an even clearer picture of Europe’s future.

And, as usual, the media are traitorously complicit. As Dave Jolly writes in Godfather Politics, “The media completely ignores the huge financial and security impact that the refugees are placing on some of these countries. Many European nations are on the brink of bankruptcy and cannot afford to start paying out millions of Euros to support the refugees. Some of the countries have expressed concern about the security risks, stating that they suspect members of ISIS have been hiding among the refugees in order to spread their terrorism into other countries.”

Nor should America expect to be spared. Refugee resettlement programs are targeting small American communities and unlikely states, which as Carol Brown says, is how “you wind up with pockets of Somalis in places like Wyoming.” The state of Idaho is fast becoming a Muslim haven as it absorbs migrants, not only from Syria, but from Iraq, the Democratic Republic of the Congo and Somalia. Tennessee is increasingly prey to Muslim infiltration. The Islamization of Kansas is proceeding as we speak. “Maine’s generous welfare policies,” Greenfield points out, “began collapsing once Somali Muslims swarmed in to take advantage of them.” Brown comments: “may we, here in America, do everything possible to ensure that this is not our future” -- though the Obama presidency, the media consortium, the entertainment industry and the American education system are doing everything in their power to make sure it will be. And following the election of pro-Muslim power broker Justin Trudeau in my own country, Canada, too, has opened the sluice valve to its eventual destabilization. It is no accident that ISIS supporters have celebrated Trudeau’s electoral victory.

A game within a game within a game?

Yes, it is properly controversial, whether economic opportunity immigrants should be given special status.  I am not an advocate of open borders either.  That only works if we have similar language, politics, religion and culture.  Nationalism is a scourge, but I don't see any way around it.

This generation has been primed to accept globalisation.
Nations, borders are to be removed, all people are equal, a Marxist utopia is in the making.

We all have seen how well it worked out in Soviet Russia. China. Cuba. etc.

Utopias have a habit of turning out just the opposite with millions of dead people in the process.
Maybe another great culling of the herd is planned.

Quote from: pr126 on November 01, 2015, 03:58:24 AM
This generation has been primed to accept globalisation.
Nations, borders are to be removed, all people are equal, a Marxist utopia is in the making.

We all have seen how well it worked out in Soviet Russia. China. Cuba. etc.

Utopias have a habit of turning out just the opposite with millions of dead people in the process.
Maybe another great culling of the herd is planned.

Blackadder's schemes never do turn out well, do they?  So England has sold their nuclear power industry to China this past week?  To a government owned Chinese company.  So yes, Marxism-R-Us provided it is Xi-R-Us not Putin-R-Us.  But why would the elite of the US and Britain facilitate the crimes of Dr Fu Manchu?

Is this Russian propaganda or factually true?

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/615466/Vladimir-Putin-refugee-crisis-Islamic-State-ISIS-Syria-Bashar-Assad

Quote

MORE than 800,000 refugees are set to return to Syria thanks to Vladimir Putin's efforts to smash the Islamic State.

Last month Moscow launched a bombing campaign against the twisted State terror group, which controls vast swathes of Syria and has forced thousands of people to flee the country.

Many desperate asylum seekers have made their way to Europe via boats to Greece, with David Cameron agreeing to let 20,000 in Britain over the next five years.

But Russia's bid to wipe out ISIS has been so successful that almost a million Syrians are elected to return to their homeland, Russian politician Dmitry Sablin claimed.

The senator, who recently visited Syria, said: "Syrian president Bashar al] Assad praised the actions of the Russian Aerospace Forces in Syria.

"He said thousands of terrorists are now fleeing Syria, and refugees are returning."

Russian fighter jets have destroyed 285 ISIS and al-Nusra Front targets in the war-torn country over the past three days, according to Russian media.

The al-Nusra Front â€" the Syrian branch of Al-Qaeda â€" was formed in 2012 during the on-going Syrian civil war.

Putin's military operation began on September 30 after an official request from Assad, his long-time ally.

There have been major changes in the country since Sablin last visited in May, the senator revealed.

He said: "People in Syria are now discussing their future. They want to rebuild their country.

"People are now walking safely through the streets of Damascus. There are fountains and restaurants open.

"Before Russia engaged it was terrifying to live there."

Hard to believe that all these people would give up free lunch.

 German Town Of 100 Gets Enriched By 750 Migrants  (http://dailycaller.com/2015/10/31/german-town-of-100-gets-enriched-by-750-migrants/)

QuoteGerman government officials have compelled a small town with just 102 people to take in approximately 750 migrants from Syria and other countries, The New York Times wrote Saturday.

Sumte, a small town at the western fringe of the former East Germany, was informed earlier this month by its municipal government that it had been assigned to accept over a thousand of the asylum seekers that have poured into Germany over the course of 2015. The number was so high that mayor Christian Fabel first thought it was a joke, but after a storm of local protest, the figure was lowered to 750, not out of sympathy but because it was believed a thousand would overwhelm the town’s sewage system.

The municipal government plans to house migrants inside an abandoned office building, but other than that, services for them will be scarce. Sumte has no school, no shops, and extremely limited public transportation options. Residents have expressed fears that the migrants, who are disproportionately young men, will bring a crime wave that will make it unsafe to go outside. Officials have responded by saying it will still be perfectly safe to go out at night, because the town’s streetlights will stay lit.

QuoteOfficials have responded by saying it will still be perfectly safe to go out at night, because the town’s streetlights will stay lit.

Yep, that should do it... :doh:

No school, no shops, only a hundred inhabitants is hardly a town, or even a village.

Guess who will be in charge and very soon. It won't be a pleasant place to live for the locals.

The German government officials should be living with the "refugees", but they make sure that doesn't happen.

QuoteThe municipal government plans to house migrants inside an abandoned office building

750 people crammed into an office building. For how long? What about sanitation?
What are they going to do all day?

http://www.jewsnews.co.il/2015/10/30/a-civil-war-erupts-irate-and-fed-up-swedes-are-now-setting-muslim-refugee-centers-on-fire (http://www.jewsnews.co.il/2015/10/30/a-civil-war-erupts-irate-and-fed-up-swedes-are-now-setting-muslim-refugee-centers-on-fire)

QuoteRefugee centers in Sweden are being burned to the ground in what appears to be a statement against the significant number of refugees the country has allowed in. The multiple arsons have all been at facilities which house or are slated to house immigrants.
One could say that someone in Sweden is mad as hell and bringing fire and brimstone to the facilities that are to be used for refugees. Seven arson fires have occurred, all of which seem to be connected with immigrant centers.

No excuse.  But as per an earlier post, Sweden takes in more refugees per capita ... so they are in the greatest long term stress.  Stress in Germany is more recent, and yet to stabilize.  And we have waves of criminal arson in the US also.  Even burning churches ;-(  A Black church was burned in my town about a decade ago.  It was arsoned by two drifters who were living in a nearby abandoned house who were bored.  Not as a political statement (other than they didn't choose a White church).

Quote from: josephpalazzo on November 03, 2015, 05:45:43 AM
http://www.jewsnews.co.il/2015/10/30/a-civil-war-erupts-irate-and-fed-up-swedes-are-now-setting-muslim-refugee-centers-on-fire (http://www.jewsnews.co.il/2015/10/30/a-civil-war-erupts-irate-and-fed-up-swedes-are-now-setting-muslim-refugee-centers-on-fire)

The result of Islamorealist fearmongering rhetoric strikes again.

http://louderwithcrowder.com/german-schoolgirls-told-to-cover-up-because-of-horn-dog-syrian-refugees/ (http://louderwithcrowder.com/german-schoolgirls-told-to-cover-up-because-of-horn-dog-syrian-refugees/)

QuoteOne of the many, many, many fronts on the ‘war on women’ here in America seems to be with high school dress codes. Because patriarchy, or sexism, or something. Shut up, you’re racist. It makes you wonder though, how quickly would the same leftists who complain over here bend over backwards to accommodate Syrian refugees, as to not offend their Muslim faith?

“The Syrian citizens are mainly Muslims and speak Arabic. The refugees are marked by their own culture. Because our school is directly next to where they are staying, modest clothing should be adhered to, in order to avoid discrepancies. Revealing tops or blouses, short shorts or miniskirts could lead to misunderstandings.”

“When Muslim teenage boys go to open air swimming pools, they are overwhelmed when they see girls in bikinis.”

“These boys, who come from a culture where for women it is frowned upon to show naked skin, follow girls and bother them without realizing. Obviously this is concerning for us.”

Firstly, let’s state the obvious. Yes, Islam is a horrible religion which has unequivocally been bad for women’s rights anywhere its prescribed law is implemented. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PyotLRHMOIk) Sharia law expressly mandates women be treated as second-class citizens when it comes to matters of rape, divorce, or even just basic human rights.But there’s something more telling at play in this story. It’s something I’ve talked about on my program quite a bit. Contrasted to the myth of “rape culture” (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8b38mV6sio) shouted about by privileged, white feminists here in the States, Islamic culture places the burden of all sexual responsibility squarely on the shoulders of women. If you dress provocatively, like say, exposing your ankle, Muslim men cannot be expected to control themselves. Their self-discipline is so weak, their respect for women is so low, that we have to ask even young girls to be extra prudent when it comes to school outfits.
Because what else could these men possibly do? Not try and rape them?

Yet another example of leftist discrimination through low expectations. Rather than demand the men be non-animalistic scumbags, they assume such a savage lack of self-control, they’d rather take the path of least resistance by demanding girls follow some new rules (made up as they go along) to avoid being raped. Because you know, progress.

This is moderate Islam.

@ Shiranu.

Maybe I fail to fully appreciate the enormous economical and social benefits that the mass migration of Muslims offers to Europe.

Perhaps you could explain to me what those benefits are?

@ Josephpalazzo:

Yet another example of leftist discrimination through low expectations. (https://www.facebook.com/240638706109428/photos/a.240934942746471.1073741828.240638706109428/497521827087780/?type=3&theater)

[spoiler](http://i991.photobucket.com/albums/af34/pr126/racist_zpsa2gs8l5h.jpg)[/spoiler]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIaGWURONRU

QuoteMany here feel the situation deteriorated in the aftermath of Chancellor Angela Merkel's recent welcome to the refugees.

The refugees just bring problems to Germany, says Tobias, a 20-year-old waiting for a train at the station, his nerves on edge. "Theft, burglary and other trouble - just look around, some people have begun to protect themselves with handguns." One of his neighbors, Tobias tells DW, is so panicked that he bought a shotgun.

Tobias says he has caught refugees trying to steal from his garage more than once. "This is a small town; we're not used to such things and people are scared."

Waiting on the platform because trains have once again been cancelled as a result of the border controls, many Freilassing citizens would agree. But very few dare say so openly. Like Tobias, most citizens of the small town fear being labeled supporters of the far-right scene.

Dressed skater-style, their hair tousled, a group of teenagers is hanging out on the square in front of the train station. "It's rare that anyone speaks their opinion, because then they're immediately labeled right-wing or a Nazi," says Lukas.

With his hoodie, baggy jeans and skateboard, he certainly doesn't look like a neo-Nazi. But all the same, he says he's really had it. "But it's not only Germany that's overextending," he says. "Something has to happen fast, or Europe will self-destruct."

http://www.dw.com/en/refugee-crisis-in-bavarian-border-town-we-cant-take-them-all/a-18718368

Things will get bad, if there are people in tents or wandering outside ... and the first freeze or snow comes.  Refugee parents will have to take things into their own hands, regardless of bureaucracy.

QuoteMaybe I fail to fully appreciate the enormous economical and social benefits that the mass migration of Muslims offers to Europe.

Short term? Likely none.

Long term? Hard to say. With aging populations which will put more and more burden on the youth, more working age men and women will take alot of the burden off of the younger generations.

However it has more to do with a, "You break it, you buy it." and, "Common human decency" than dollar signs.

Also; it's not beneficial to house refugees either economically or socially is an argument against burning shelters being wrong? Dafuq?

Quote from: Shiranu on November 03, 2015, 08:11:17 PM
Short term? Likely none.

Long term? Hard to say. With aging populations which will put more and more burden on the youth, more working age men and women will take alot of the burden off of the younger generations.

However it has more to do with a, "You break it, you buy it." and, "Common human decency" than dollar signs.

Also; it's not beneficial to house refugees either economically or socially is an argument against burning shelters being wrong? Dafuq?

If one is without sympathy of a certain sort, one can hope that the Europeans will stifle themselves to the last puritan.  They didn't all come to Boston.  Maybe Muslim Europe will be easier for America to deal with ... at worst we can use it for target practice ;-)

The Graphic:

http://www.lucify.com/embed/the-flow-towards-europe/

Pegida Rallies Heat Up in Germany (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3302015/Thousands-streets-Pegida-anti-immigration-rally-Germany-group-s-founder-investigated-slander-comparing-justice-minister-Joseph-Goebbels.html)

QuoteThousands of anti-immigration protesters marched through the streets of a German city in the latest demonstration against the huge influx of refugees.

Around 8,000 people joined the anti-Islam Pegida movement for a rally in Dresden over Angela Merkel's decision to allow up to one million migrants into the country this year.

Some demonstrators held crucifixes and upside-down German flags while others shouted 'Merkel out!' alongside doctored images of the German Chancellor in a burqa and a Nazi outfit.

The group's leaders, who have been described by German Interior Minister Thomas de Maiziere as 'hard right-wing extremists', are demanding an immediate end to the policy.

Amazing how many xenophobic Germans fail to see the benefits of opening up their country to Muslim invaders.

They all should be silenced and put into re-education camps.
Their homes should be confiscated by the state and given to the more deserving new comers.

Problem solved.

It's for their best interest.

 Arbeit Macht Frei  (http://gatesofvienna.net/2015/11/arbeit-macht-frei/)

QuoteSo it’s come to this.

Not only do Germans have to put up with hostile illiterate Muslim “refugees” who crowd their public spaces and leave filth in their wake. Not only do they have to endure increased levels of assault, theft, rape, and other crimes. Not only are they forced to keep quiet about it all, to shut their mouths if they don’t want to be prosecuted and/or lose their jobs.

Now it looks like they’ll be forced into the service of the migrants. Under this new proposal, after graduation their choice will be either military service or abject dhimmi servitude to the new Muslim Herrenvolk   

German Youth Should be Forced to Perform Compulsory Labor

    An MP for the CDU [Angela Merkel’s party], Eckhardt Rehberg, demands that german youths perform compulsory labor to master the rising numbers of asylum seekers. “We need compulsory service. We have no other way to be able to master the mass of refugees and their integration.”

    They are supposed to relieve volunteer workers, who are at their limit of exhaustion. Rehberg said: “We need compulsory service. We have no other way to be able to master the mass of refugees and their integration.” According to his suggestion, after young Germans graduate school, they have a choice in front of them, either go serve in the military for a year, or to serve one year in social services.

There, you see, everything will work out just fine. Nothing to worry about.


Question and Answers: Migrant Crisis in Germany  (http://analysistomorrow.blogspot.co.uk/2015/11/question-and-answers-migrant-crisis-in.html)

@ Shiranu:

University education has removed your critical thinking ability.
You have learned what to think, not how to think.

A progressive.  I think you tick all the boxes.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCis1U1nFR0


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vz4PjxSmtoI

Quoting a British guy, who would be KKK in the US ... doesn't help your argument.  You have good points ... if a bit inflexible and uncreative.  I see no reason to not ask all Europeans to engage in compulsory labor when necessary ... and in the US as well.  The idea that the draft, can never happen again, is false.  The political response should have been, to never get into a situation where a draft is necessary ... but we have passed that point.

Baruch wrote:

QuoteQuoting a British guy, who would be KKK in the US

Really? How did you came to this conclusion?

Quote from: pr126 on November 04, 2015, 08:31:47 AM
Really? How did you came to this conclusion?

Have I got this right? You are objecting to somebody pointing to the commonalities of a right wing British bloke, and a right wing American organisation, when your posts are filled with the notion that a quarter of the worlds population all operate in exactly the same way because of a few lines in one book, that of themselves are open to interpretation?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4FpTvp0tgs

https://youtu.be/sPB1jy4vmFA

Yes it always has claimed to not be of the right and different this time.

I guess jonb you did not watch the last video I posted.
That is why you are jumping into stupid conclusions.

Projecting, perhaps?

Oh I did, a man who said he was not on the right, because he still held dear some ideas from the left so now has been forced to hold a new position.

Yes so I posted the speech of a man with exactly that same position.

You don't know much about your British history do you?

There were plenty of American Black Shirts back then too, and there still are.  Some have the last name ... Bush ;-(

Would like to know from our German posters if this is any accurate:

QuoteGermany has endured its worst few weeks of civil unrest and politically motivated violence since the days of the Nazis.

Police officers, politicians, journalists but above all refugees have been the target of thugs protesting the country's open-door policy towards migrants.

The refugee crisis has changed Germany and, while Chancellor Angela Merkel believes it will be ultimately for the better, the dark parallels with the past continue to mount up.

'The hate is back,' reported news magazine Der Spiegel. 'But it no longer remains in slogans and posters - it's already creepy enough to portray politicians hanging from gallows or to threaten them.

'Security officials see a new level of violence. At the Federal Criminal Police Office (BKA) no-one will no longer rule out that there could be deaths in the future.'

The worst physical attack of recent weeks came on October 17 when Henriette Reker, a pro-asylum politician, was campaigning in Cologne to become mayor of the city. A neo-Nazi opposed to migrants nearly killed her by stabbing her in the neck.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3303852/The-hate-say-German-media-migrant-crisis-sparks-country-s-worst-spate-political-violence-Nazi-era.html

What most damaged Germany in the 1920s, were judges who slapped the wrists of violent rioters like Hitler.  There was no reason to be lenient then ... except the judges were sympathetic to the Right.  Violence by anyone, should be effectively and efficiently punished severely.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CTC2UxZXIAACavh.png)

Quote from: pr126 on November 05, 2015, 12:43:49 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CTC2UxZXIAACavh.png)

I didn't realize that Bulgaria was being invaded by England!

Quote from: pr126 on November 05, 2015, 12:43:49 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CTC2UxZXIAACavh.png)

This may surprise you, but I am actually against the immigrants who are piggy-backing on the refugee crisis just to get into Europe more easily. I really am, I think that is a disgusting practice to exploit the people fleeing Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan and the rest for legitimate reasons. But given the sheer percentage fleeing Syria... it's hard to believe people say, "...just go back home, you lazy welfare whores!", when their "home" looks like this...

(http://static01.nyt.com/images/2014/03/18/world/SYRIA-2/SYRIA-2-articleLarge.jpg)

(http://static01.nyt.com/images/2013/01/18/world/syria/syria-articleLarge.jpg)

(http://www.naameshaam.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Pic15-Homs.jpg)

I truly believe, "You break it, you buy it"... and no, I didn't learn that in some ultra-liberal university, or even some semi-liberal high school... I learned that from a deeply conservative, deeply Christian family. And at the end of the day, European colonialism, particularly from the french and the English, followed by puppet state manipulations of dictatorships and propping up an extremist regime in Saudi Arabia by the U.S. and Russia turned a shaky region into a powder keg that the United States set off when we completely destabalised the region through invasion.

We broke it, and now we are buying it. That is simply how things work; if we were so concerned about the consequences we would have never elected officials who used other humans and nations as weapons against one another, or would have overthrown the monarchs who saw it to to colonize the lands. But we reaped all of the benefits from it without a bat of an eye... so what's fair is what's fair.

I hate paying for the sins of my father's, but that is how the world works.

Good news!

European Union: Three million more migrants could arrive by end of 2016  (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/11976870/European-Union-Three-million-more-migrants-could-arrive-by-end-of-2016.html)

QuoteThe European Union is predicting that three million more migrants could arrive in the 28-nation bloc by the end of next year.

More than 700,000 people have come to Europe seeking sanctuary or jobs so far this year, overwhelming reception centres and border authorities.

EU autumn economic forecasts released on Thursday say that, based on current migrant entries and a "technical assumption" about future flows, arrival rates are unlikely to slow before 2017.

The EU's executive Commission said that "overall, an additional three million persons is assumed to arrive in the EU over the forecast period."

Inshallah Europe will be Islamic in less than 30 years.
Then Europe also can look like the photos above .

Shiranu wrote:

QuoteI hate paying for the sins of my father's, but that is how the world works.

Please ask your father to stop wrecking the world! Enough already.

Quote from: pr126 on November 06, 2015, 04:22:23 AM
Good news!

Inshallah Europe will be Islamic in less than 30 years.
Then Europe also can look like the photos above .

It should not but it amazes me, how much the liberal elite left and you on the right are alike.
The left would have it that there is no such thing as culture, that different peoples don't have different ways of viewing the world. You on the right admit slightly that there might be such a thing as culture but are constantly telling us that it is so weak that it is about to be swamped and will exist no more.
Do you not realise that part of the reason why so many muslins are fanatical is that they have to be, to hold on to their traditional beliefs, because western values are so attractive.

Quote from: pr126 on November 06, 2015, 05:58:29 AM
Shiranu wrote:

QuoteI hate paying for the sins of my father's, but that is how the world works

.

Please ask your father to stop wrecking the world! Enough already.

A side note: I must have attacked Christians hundreds of times on this forum, and I don't remember Shiranu ever coming to their defense, but raise any criticism on Islam, and there he is, raising his ugly face. He's probably a member of some Islamic organisation which gets funding from Saudi Arabia. AFAIC, he's on my ignore list where he belongs.

Quote from: jonb on November 06, 2015, 06:22:30 AM
It should not but it amazes me, how much the liberal elite left and you on the right are alike.
The left would have it that there is no such thing as culture, that different peoples don't have different ways of viewing the world. You on the right admit slightly that there might be such a thing as culture but are constantly telling us that it is so weak that it is about to be swamped and will exist no more.
Do you not realise that part of the reason why so many muslins are fanatical is that they have to be, to hold on to their traditional beliefs, because western values are so attractive.

If you think that western values and culture is equal to, or even inferior to Islamic values and culture then you have a problem.

Quote from: pr126 on November 06, 2015, 10:57:54 AM
If you think that western values and culture is equal to, or even inferior to Islamic values and culture then you have a problem.

Hum, Islam is superior...


http://thetab.com/2015/07/26/gang-of-preachers-stage-islam-is-superior-protest-in-london-46675

Quote from: pr126 on November 06, 2015, 10:57:54 AM
If you think that western values and culture is equal to, or even inferior to Islamic values and culture then you have a problem.

No I think western culture is the best, it is you who always plays the card that Islam wins in any encounter. Part of the reason why western culture is for me so powerful is that it is outward looking. It does not need to build walls around itself to keep the outside world at arms length and hide in fear, it is strong and goes into the unknown. There is no other culture that I have encountered with such a strong basic belief in individuality.

You who has shown no understanding of this. A person who advocates the building of walls and hiding in little boxes. That frequently says those people are all the same, who is the primary enemy of my culture.

Quote from: josephpalazzo on November 06, 2015, 10:04:55 AM
.

Please ask your father to stop wrecking the world! Enough already.



A side note: I must have attacked Christians hundreds of times on this forum, and I don't remember Shiranu ever coming to their defense, but raise any criticism on Islam, and there he is, raising his ugly face. He's probably a member of some Islamic organisation which gets funding from Saudi Arabia. AFAIC, he's on my ignore list where he belongs.

Quote from: josephpalazzo on November 06, 2015, 10:04:55 AM
.

Please ask your father to stop wrecking the world! Enough already.



A side note: I must have attacked Christians hundreds of times on this forum, and I don't remember Shiranu ever coming to their defense, but raise any criticism on Islam, and there he is, raising his ugly face. He's probably a member of some Islamic organisation which gets funding from Saudi Arabia. AFAIC, he's on my ignore list where he belongs.

Wait, I could be making that Saudi oil money for this? All I got was a lousey t-shirt...what the hell:/.

@jonb:

Our culture is weakened, we are in full appeasement mode, we are frightened to criticize Islam, our governments punishes those who dare to do so.

Our values are not the same as our fathers' were, those who lost their lives for the freedom that this generation so indifferent to lose.

This freedom is not ours to give away, we are custodians of it for the future generations.

Edit:

We open our borders to anybody, come and get anything you want, rape our women and children, we are past caring.

That is what became of our values.

Quote from: pr126 on November 06, 2015, 11:39:41 AM

@jonb:

Our culture is weakened, we are in full appeasement mode, we are frightened to criticize Islam, our governments punishes those who dare to do so.

Our values are not the same as our fathers' were, those who lost their lives for the freedom that this generation so indifferent to lose.

This freedom is not ours to give away, we are custodians of it for the future generations.

You should quote from this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Decline_of_the_West

But be disturbed by where and when it was published  ;-(

Quote from: josephpalazzo on November 06, 2015, 11:03:51 AM
Hum, Islam is superior...


http://thetab.com/2015/07/26/gang-of-preachers-stage-islam-is-superior-protest-in-london-46675

And Man United is the best in football (soccer), right?  Well #4 right now in Premiere League.

People are always going on about beating their chests ... does this bother you?  If one is of a puritanical bent ... and some non-Muslims are ... Islam is clearly superior in regards to profanity, promiscuity and the use of intoxicants.  Fortunately I am not a puritan (though rabbinic Jews are).

Quote from: pr126 on November 06, 2015, 11:39:41 AM

@jonb:

Our culture is weakened, we are in full appeasement mode, we are frightened to criticize Islam, our governments punishes those who dare to do so.

No, my culture is strong, and allows discussion and different points of view, from those on the left who criticise everything western to those on the right who are so paranoid that they would kill the culture itself.

Quote

Our values are not the same as our fathers' were, those who lost their lives for the freedom that this generation so indifferent to lose.

Old man's talk, just read any writer in history talking about the next generation, the world is always about to end. My father and grandfather taught me my values and son and daughter hold to them too. If you think I'm provocative and argumentative you don't want to get on my daughters bad side.

Quote

This freedom is not ours to give away, we are custodians of it for the future generations.

Yes it is. If the west was not governed by idiots who only think about short term financial gain, it is capable of spreading freedom. If instead of hiding freedom in little boxes behind walls which kills it, you had the bravery to stand up as a free man you would see the spreading of freedom is what free people do, it is all about not being afraid of bogeymen.

 Not everybody wants freedom  (https://www.google.com/search?site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1366&bih=604&q=freedom+go+to+hell+sign&oq=freedom+go+to+he&gs_l=img.1.1.0j0i30j0i24.2464.9042.0.12037.16.12.0.4.4.0.117.885.11j1.12.0....0...1ac.1.64.img..0.16.914.C2AXsk3fXLU) 

 A 45 second symbol of the West's ability to defend itself against Islamic Jihad, Hijrah and Sharia.  (https://www.facebook.com/wolle2013/videos/1025437634154730/)

Why put the 4 police men there at all? Must have known that it would be a futile effort.

Quote from: pr126 on November 06, 2015, 12:19:27 PM
Not everybody wants freedom  (https://www.google.com/search?site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1366&bih=604&q=freedom+go+to+hell+sign&oq=freedom+go+to+he&gs_l=img.1.1.0j0i30j0i24.2464.9042.0.12037.16.12.0.4.4.0.117.885.11j1.12.0....0...1ac.1.64.img..0.16.914.C2AXsk3fXLU)

Tough shit for them then.  If they want to curtail my freedom, then they are going to get a fist sandwich!

Seriously though ... I am not worried about the survival of Western culture.  But it won't be the culture of 18th century Europe in the future, any more than it is the culture of 18th century Europe now.  Silk dot facial blemishes are so over ... dude!

Quote from: pr126 on November 06, 2015, 12:19:27 PM
Not everybody wants freedom  (https://www.google.com/search?site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1366&bih=604&q=freedom+go+to+hell+sign&oq=freedom+go+to+he&gs_l=img.1.1.0j0i30j0i24.2464.9042.0.12037.16.12.0.4.4.0.117.885.11j1.12.0....0...1ac.1.64.img..0.16.914.C2AXsk3fXLU)

Of course they want like you to sit in their little comfort zones and not be questioned.

Quote from: jonb on November 06, 2015, 12:42:02 PM
 

Of course they want like you to sit in their little comfort zones and not be questioned.

If that was for the purpose of listening to a Hayden concerto ... I could sit still for a little while ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpFaWJQHwbA

The puritan condemnation of music, either in Islam or Puritan Christianity ... is demonic!

Potemkin Refugees (http://gatesofvienna.net/2015/11/potemkin-refugees/)

QuoteWe’ve all seen those heartrending and/or uplifting photos of “refugees” arriving in Europe. The earnest-looking fathers and mothers (mom always in hijab) with their tiny adorable children, waiting behind a fence in awful conditions, but remaining stoic and cheerful in the face of their misfortune. The tear-jerking images fill the vidscreens, from a dead toddler on the beach in Turkey through the crying children on Kos to a fallen woman with a baby being protected by her husband on the railway tracks in Budapest.

And we can expect the heartbreaking tableaux to reach ever-greater levels of pathos â€" soon they’ll be freezing in Munich and Berlin, if they aren’t already.

Yes, we’ve all seen those photos and videos, and we all know they’re a misrepresentation of the facts. Or we should know â€" anyone with the mental acuity of a bag of hair can understand that.

The Know Nothings (http://edwardcline.blogspot.co.uk/2015/11/the-know-nothings.html)

Quote from: pr126 on November 07, 2015, 12:38:14 AM
Potemkin Refugees (http://gatesofvienna.net/2015/11/potemkin-refugees/)



The Know Nothings (http://edwardcline.blogspot.co.uk/2015/11/the-know-nothings.html)

Actually your blog post link was interesting.  American, not European.  So not quite the "ars verite" I would prefer.  But the blog isn't stupid either.  But there is a mixed message ... one of immigration ... but also one of politics and economics.  And if you agree with his politics and economics ... which means to basically despise Europeans in general, and anyone Left of Trump ... then the mixture will hold together (the anti-immigrant with the rest).  Blackshirt, but not Nazi ... more Italian or simply chauvinist.  Not that there is anything wrong with all that ... I find immigration disturbing myself, but I choose not to worry too much about it.  I can appreciate both Left and Right arguments ... though my personal preference is studied neutrality (I don't want to be ideological).

Triumph of the Will [/quote]

(http://gatesofvienna.net/2015/11/triumph-of-the-will/)

QuoteThe following video is a slick professional-quality piece produced by the German Federal Agency for Migration and Refugees about the asylum process. It shows the individual steps that have to be taken in order for a migrant to receive refugee status and permanent residency in Germany.

The video serves two propaganda purposes simultaneously: to show “refugees” the procedures they are to expect, and to highlight to the German public how every part of the asylum process is clean, orderly, shiny, and non-threatening.

Video  (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e0c_1446874329)

QuoteLet’s assume that the asylum process as represented in this film is accurate. It’s very labor-intensive, involving a dozen or more state employees for a protracted period. We’ll make an optimistic guess, and assume it takes fifty man-hours of time on the part of the asylum center employees and agency bureaucrats to process Herr Abbas’ case.

Germany is expecting a million new immigrants by the end of this year, and another two million next year. These numbers will thus require 3,000,000 × 50 man-hours of labor on the part of native Germans. That’s 3,750,000 man-weeks (assuming a forty-hour week) or 72,000 man-years. If the asylum process for all of these migrants is to be completed in a year or less, this means that a minimum of 72,000 employees must be engaged in processing them. And, presuming that some of those employees have additional duties, the number would probably be somewhat larger â€" 150,000, 250,000, maybe half a million. Just to process the first two tranches of “refugees”.

How sustainable is this? How much will such a process cost?

Potemkin Village: (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potemkin_village)

Things are heating up in Berlin:

Flashpoint in Berlin as anti-immigration protesters clash with police (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3308583/Flashpoint-Berlin-anti-immigration-protesters-clash-police-call-traitor-people-Angela-Merkel-s-resignation.html)

What was said, on this thread, and on many other forums I have seen, is that this refugee crisis is not going to go well with the hosting populations of different countries. And since the predictions are some 3 million refugees by the end of 2016, it will get very, very ugly.

QuoteScuffles erupted after police broke up a sit-in by counter-demonstrators, some of whom tried to break through the barriers separating them from the anti-migrant march.

Officers also intervened to stop angry exchanges between rival demonstrators.

More than 1,100 police were necessary in the capital to prevent trouble between the rival demonstrators. 

Ms Merkel has faced a growing backlash over her welcoming stance towards refugees fleeing war and persecution as Germany, Europe's top economy, faces a record influx of up to one million asylum-seekers this year.

Meanwhile, Germany's vice chancellor said today that he considers a proposal made, then shelved, by the interior minister to give many Syrians a restricted asylum status to be finished.

The definitive close to the suggestion indicates that he doesn't want to set off a new round of political infighting over it. 

QuoteFive counter-protests in support of migrants saw a turn-out of around 800 people, despite organisers' hopes that several thousand would attend.

Those people who are demonstrating in favor of migrants should be taken at their word.

Assign to them each a dozen migrants to their homes at their own expense.
Feed them, house them, they are now your responsibility. Thank you so much.

I am sure they will be all to happy to look after the migrants.

I'm not sure if these numbers are correct, "5000 anti-immigration protesters versus 800 pro-immigrant protesters", or representative of the mood amongst the German population, but if that is true, Merkel is in deep trouble.

Merkel doesn't care.
Another possibility is that she has no say in the matter.
Other players could be pulling the strings.

Quote from: pr126 on November 08, 2015, 11:26:57 AM
Merkel doesn't care.
Another possibility is that she has no say in the matter.
Other players could be pulling the strings.

The next German federal election is to be held in the fall of 2017. But should Merkel's grand coalition fail a confidence motion, these elections could take place earlier. If the present confrontation between pro- and anti-migration groups accelerates, I don't see how she would survive such a motion.

 source  (http://gatesofvienna.net/2015/11/the-final-solution-to-the-european-problem/)

QuoteThe following video is a compilation of footage related to the European “migration” crisis taken in the last five or six years. I’ve seen most of these clips before, and Vlad and I have done our own subtitled versions of some of them. The person who put the video together recommends that viewers download it and mirror it, because it probably won’t stay up on YouTube for very long.

Yes, I know it’s got a section with Nick Griffin ranting on about Zionists and banks and whatnot. But not counting that, it’s a pretty good collage of what’s been going on:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44vzMNG2fZc

Too bad UKIP dirtied it up ;-)

Germany Changing Christian Holiday To Not Offend Muslims (http://www.truthandaction.org/germany-changing-christian-holiday-not-offend-muslims/)

QuoteIn order to accommodate and not offend all the Muslim refugees pouring into Germany, officials want to ban the celebration of Saint Martin’s Day.  This Christian holiday honors a Roman soldier, turned monk, who as legend tells gave his military cloak, ripping it in two, to a freezing beggar. This merciful act has inspired the holiday and now it is in political correct limbo.

seems that a celebration that teaches mercy and generosity would be a wonderful tool to teach newly arrived immigrants the same attributes.  To share with Islamic children the beauty of humanity and caring, through this holiday of lanterns and hope, should be an acceptable practice and not one deemed as inappropriate.

Yet, common sense does not guide the left but rather feelings and they feel that abolishing or renaming this holiday would be a better choice for the new comers, because the citizens of the country don’t count, nor does keeping a sixth century tradition matter either.

    Primary schools and kindergartens in Germany are abolishing a Christian celebration and changing it into a generic “festival of lights” so as not to offend the hundreds of thousands of Muslim migrants pouring into the country.

    Several daycare centers in Düsseldorf have abolished the festival altogether out of “consideration for the refugees,” a decision that has prompted fierce criticism from head teachers at other schools in the region.

Leftist German politician, Rüdiger Sagel, believes one should not impose Christianity on Muslims, yet by banning this holiday, Islam is being imposed upon Christians and the German culture.

I don't see any problems. Clearly they must have missed Barack Obama's Cairo speech:

“Islam has a proud tradition of tolerance.”

“Throughout history, Islam has demonstrated through words and deeds the possibilities of religious tolerance and racial equality.”

“Islam is not part of the problem in combating violent extremism â€" it is an important part of promoting peace.”

A happy Christmas. No, scrap that. I mean Eid Mubarak.

Quote from: pr126 on November 10, 2015, 11:16:46 AM
Germany Changing Christian Holiday To Not Offend Muslims (http://www.truthandaction.org/germany-changing-christian-holiday-not-offend-muslims/)

German Christians will now join their American Christian compatriots in feeling oppressed. LOL.

It is called preemptive  dhimmitude.  (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Dhimmitude_%28definition%29)
Where non Muslims adopt subservience to their Masters even before being asked.

It is fine, they'll have to get used to it. Better sooner than later.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFb7cmFsPoc

"We are equal under the Law."
But not under Allah's law. The only one that counts.

Quote from: pr126 on November 10, 2015, 01:18:18 PM

Where non Muslims adopt subservience to their Masters even before being asked.

It is fine, they'll have to get used to it. Better sooner than later.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFb7cmFsPoc

"We are equal under the Law."
But not under Allah's law. The only one that counts.

The best bet for Europe against Islamization is secularism. Not only does it guarantee that all religions are tolerated but if the secular institutions are well entrenched in the host country, it is a bulwark against Sharia law.

Will not work under aggressive Islam.
There is also demographics at play. In years to come, Muslims will be the majority.

Quote from: pr126 on November 10, 2015, 02:57:31 PM
Will not work under aggressive Islam.
There is also demographics at play. In years to come, Muslims will be the majority.

If Sharia law is never allowed to begin with the new arrivals then by the 2nd or 3rd generation comes around, fewer among them will want Sharia law as it would then be a total unknown to them.

Quote from: pr126 on November 10, 2015, 02:57:31 PM
Will not work under aggressive Islam.
There is also demographics at play. In years to come, Muslims will be the majority.

No need for democracy.  Europeans ruled S Africa for 350 years.

"Leftist German politician, Rüdiger Sagel, believes one should not impose Christianity on Muslims, yet by banning this holiday, Islam is being imposed upon Christians and the German culture." ... I disagree.  Laicity is being imposed, as it theoretically is done in France.  Germans should welcome this ... they need to work without holidays ... for the good of the Reich ;-)

https://youtu.be/Z8YoWCXljmk?t=7m3s

(http://i991.photobucket.com/albums/af34/pr126/bigot_zpsr78ghuz8.jpg)

Quote from: pr126 on November 11, 2015, 08:50:14 AM
(http://i991.photobucket.com/albums/af34/pr126/bigot_zpsr78ghuz8.jpg)

Not if you're in France:

France won’t dine with Iran unless wine is served (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/11/10/france-wont-dine-with-iran-unless-wine-is-served/)

Quote
Ahead of Iranian President Hassan Rouhani’s landmark European trip kicking off this weekend, French officials reportedly nixed plans for a formal meal in Paris with President François Hollande following a dispute over the menu. The Iranians, according to France’s RTL Radio, insisted on a wine-free meal with halal meat â€" a request based on Islamic codes that amounted to culinary sacrilege in France, a nation that puts the secular ideals of the Republic above all else.

Just kick the Iranian ambassador into a conveniently located pit.  That an insist when the French President visits Iran, they serve cracklins (fried pig skin).

Quote from: pr126 on November 11, 2015, 08:50:14 AM
(http://i991.photobucket.com/albums/af34/pr126/bigot_zpsr78ghuz8.jpg)

Wrong meme for the image. You gotta step your net game up, homie...

As a man wearing a beard, with some non-European ancestry ... I could complain that my goatee is being micro-aggressed ;-)

Competitive propaganda?  Really?  I agree, it is too weak to defend European manhood.  Gotta have fake MI6 Muslims decapitating captives.

(http://i991.photobucket.com/albums/af34/pr126/rageboy_zpsprqlsv5w.jpg)

Quote from: pr126 on November 11, 2015, 10:16:10 AM
(http://i991.photobucket.com/albums/af34/pr126/rageboy_zpsprqlsv5w.jpg)

This is why there were riots against Catholic immigrants in the early 19th century America.  But back then we also had a political party called the "Know Nothings".  Needless to say, the need for employers to exploit starving Irish, Poles, Italians etc in factories ... turned the tide in favor of ethnics despised by Anglo-Saxons, Dutch and Old Jews.  The Jews that came early from Germany and Holland ... were quite opposed to Jews from Poland and Russia.  Those same Catholic immigrants in particular, were more likely to live in the North, and helped turn the tide for Lincoln.

Quote from: pr126 on November 11, 2015, 10:16:10 AM
(http://i991.photobucket.com/albums/af34/pr126/rageboy_zpsprqlsv5w.jpg)

Thats better :P.

Ticking Clock: European Civilization on the Brink of Extinction? (http://sputniknews.com/europe/20151112/1029957634/european-civilization-on-the-brink-of-extinction-refugees-migrants-buchanan.html#ixzz3rG6TU1AR)

QuoteEurope is undergoing the greatest mass migration since the Second World War, US conservative political commentator and author Patrick J. Buchanan points out, posing the question whether European civilization will survive in 21th century.

Europe is unable to absorb millions of asylum seekers fleeing from war-torn regions of the Middle East and North Africa; they come from other civilizations and cultures and will change the face of Europe forever, US conservative political commentator and author Patrick J. Buchanan notes.

It will never be the same again.

Pat Buchanan is a bit of a John Bircher.  Anti-immigrant anything ... and anti-anything-not-extreme-Catholic.  So he is being consistent with his views of events in the US earlier.

But given the eventual large numbers ... Europe as it is now post WW II ... won't be around much longer.  It will be something different.  But that would probably happen anyway, given the end of N Sea oil, German intransigence, S Europe bankruptcy, Tory/UKIPing of GB etc.  Given the financial situation and Europe vs China ... there as a lot going against Europe.  China believes that only one country should export more than raw materials or food, and they are it.  And Germany and GB have both tried to tart themselves up to interest the Chinese.  The Chinese are going to be building nuclear reactors in GB!

 Syria refugee crisis: U.S. opens centres to speed vetting  (http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/syria-refugees-u-s-centres-1.3308576)

QuoteThe Obama administration is moving to increase and accelerate the number of Syrian refugees who might be admitted into the United States by opening new screening outposts in Iraq and Lebanon, administration officials told Reuters on Friday.

The move comes after President Barack Obama pledged in September to admit an additional 10,000 Syrian refugees in 2016, torn by four years of civil war and disorder.

The U.S. State Department confirmed the plans to open a refugee settlement processing centre in Erbil, Iraq, before the end of 2015, and to resume refugee processing in Lebanon in early 2016, said spokeswoman Danna Van Brandt.

The White House would not say how many additional refugees it may take in beyond the 10,000, but two senior administration officials said they are seeking ways to increase the number.

About time too. We are getting a bit crowded here in the EU.

Good luck and good night.

Quote from: pr126 on November 14, 2015, 09:48:00 AM
Syria refugee crisis: U.S. opens centres to speed vetting  (http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/syria-refugees-u-s-centres-1.3308576)
About time too. We are getting a bit crowded here in the EU.

Good luck and good night.

It's unlikely that ISIS will send some of theirs through the wave of refugees - it would take too long before they are processed through the bureaucracy. It's much quicker and easier to do as in what happened in Paris - radicalize a few, harm them and then send them like zombies to kill as many innocents as possible.

They are probably already there. Just waiting for the 'go ahead'.

Meanwhile,  one 'Lone Wolf' from Ohio  (http://www.cleveland.com/court-justice/index.ssf/2015/11/akron_man_arrested_on_terroris.html)
Who knows how many more are biding their time?

Quote from: pr126 on November 08, 2015, 11:15:34 AM
Those people who are demonstrating in favor of migrants should be taken at their word.

Assign to them each a dozen migrants to their homes at their own expense.
Feed them, house them, they are now your responsibility. Thank you so much.

I am sure they will be all to happy to look after the migrants.

So if you think there shoud be free healtcare then you have to provide it yourself?

Quote from: facebook164 on November 14, 2015, 10:37:13 AM
So if you think there shoud be free healtcare then you have to provide it yourself?

No such thing as free healthcare. Or free anything. Someone has to pay for it.

Quote from: pr126 on November 14, 2015, 10:41:33 AM
No such thing as free healthcare. Or free anything. Someone has to pay for it.

Socialism isn't the real problem ... inability to take arithmetic seriously is.  I don't believe in the Europe is socialist, America is capitalist meme.  We believe in different free stuff.

Quote from: Baruch on November 14, 2015, 02:59:49 PM
Socialism isn't the real problem ... inability to take arithmetic seriously is.  I don't believe in the Europe is socialist, America is capitalist meme.  We believe in different free stuff.

Wish I could have pressed the "like" button twice on that one.

Quote from: SGOS on November 14, 2015, 03:13:49 PM
Wish I could have pressed the "like" button twice on that one.

There will be other opportunities in other threads ;-) ... I am really tired of propaganda ... for my whole long life.  It took many years to see past it.  There are no real socialists or capitalists ... just assholes and the regular folks they prey on.

Quote from: pr126 on November 14, 2015, 10:41:33 AM
No such thing as free healthcare. Or free anything. Someone has to pay for it.

To the refugee who gets it without having paid into it, it is free as far as he is concerned.

Quote from: josephpalazzo on November 14, 2015, 04:05:03 PM
To the refugee who gets it without having paid into it, it is free as far as he is concerned.

That is the view of the thief.  But then the government shares the same view ... as the highest organized crime syndicate in its jurisdiction.  Children are thieves also, for at least 20 years ... unless you are Dickensian.

It is the direct view of present governments, that even if you put into it, it belongs to the government ... hence the desire to simply transfer the SS and Medicare from a debit to the government, to a credit.  But then that is just the kind of creative accounting you would expect from the Godfather.

 More than half the nation's governors say Syrian refugees not welcome  (http://edition.cnn.com/2015/11/16/world/paris-attacks-syrian-refugees-backlash/)

Quote(CNN)More than half the nation's governors -- 26 states -- say they oppose letting Syrian refugees into their states, although the final say on this contentious immigration issue will fall to the federal government.

States protesting the admission of refugees range from Alabama and Georgia, to Texas and Arizona, to Michigan and Illinois, to Maine and New Hampshire. Among these 26 states, all but one have Republican governors.

The announcements came after authorities revealed that at least one of the suspects believed to be involved in the Paris terrorist attacks entered Europe among the current wave of Syrian refugees. He had falsely identified himself as a Syrian named Ahmad al Muhammad and was allowed to enter Greece in early October.

Quote from: pr126 on November 14, 2015, 10:41:33 AM
No such thing as free healthcare. Or free anything. Someone has to pay for it.

Of course!That is what society is about! Taking care of each other! Building infrastructure and a base for decent living.

Quote from: facebook164 on November 17, 2015, 01:10:15 AM
Of course!That is what society is about! Taking care of each other! Building infrastructure and a base for decent living.

I can see you now standing on the street corner handing out money to strangers.  For building infrastructure and a base for decent living, of course.

Well done that man.
Hope you have plenty money, there are millions more coming for your handout.

Quote from: facebook164 on November 17, 2015, 01:10:15 AM
Of course!That is what society is about! Taking care of each other! Building infrastructure and a base for decent living.

Social Darwinists don't agree.  They believe in $&%6 the other guy before he $*$74 you.  For them, life is all carnivores all the time ... except they ignore that the carnivores can't survive without the herbivores.  Unfortunately society always puts the assholes in charge ... it is chimp sociology.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3MvinY66r0

I wonder if any of those young German women who were so enthusiastically welcomed the "refugees" recently have been already gang raped by those nice Middle Eastern males? 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9TOdMzOH1U#t=140

Quote from: josephpalazzo on November 14, 2015, 04:05:03 PM
To the refugee who gets it without having paid into it, it is free as far as he is concerned.

Which is why we had forced labor camps ... and poor houses (like in Victorian times).  But are we really concerned about virtue ... and how only middle class or upper class folks should get government benefits ... because they are so obviously virtuous?  Children are held to a different standard now than adults ... but we used to allow child labor ... and some people want to bring it back (why should Jr get to go to school instead of work in a coal mine for 20 years).  That and we need to up the retirement age to 70 or higher (sarc).

Not you personally ... but there are people who in their minds would prefer to supervise with a lash ... so demonstrate their superior virtue.  There is as much a problem of fraud with a meritocracy as with any other social stratification scheme.  Are we superior to India?  I think not.

PS - I have heard from others, who have been to Germany, that if an unaccompanied young woman enters a bar there ... they have their own gang rape culture going on (after they get her drunk).  Germany is the land of hard ass dominatrices too ... so it would appear to go both ways (at least for a minority).  Given that, and the prejudice of ME folks about all Western women being prostitutes ... we can expect more of this.

Quote from: pr126 on November 17, 2015, 01:34:12 AM
I can see you now standing on the street corner handing out money to strangers.  For building infrastructure and a base for decent living, of course.

Well done that man.
Hope you have plenty money, there are millions more coming for your handout.

This is a Biblical problem ... aka very old problem.  I have a problem knowing when to donate and not donate.  No human society has ever solved it, but has managed to create quite a few failures trying.  Urbanization and reduction of patriarchalism has made it worse ;-)  Every person should be on a farm, run by their grandfather, and there should be no cities (Canaanites).  Non-agriculture work is un-virtuous ... or even non-Bedouin work is un-virtuous (farmers are just so many Canaanites too).  Abraham's roving motorcycle gang (but with donkeys ... carbon virtuous).  And if you disobey your grandfather, then stoning is your just reward.  But even that primitive society had a problem with too many children ... Abraham should have run things better ... not allowed anyone any sex (chastity devices) except when he allowed it, according to his Five Year Plan (oh that was that first Joseph, Vizier of Egypt ... who invented forced (grain) savings for future bad times (according to the story)).

You do ramble on Baruch. Lay off the booze.

Quote from: Baruch on November 14, 2015, 02:59:49 PM
Socialism isn't the real problem ... inability to take arithmetic seriously is.  I don't believe in the Europe is socialist, America is capitalist meme.  We believe in different free stuff.

:lol:

Quote from: pr126 on January 06, 2016, 10:37:41 AM
You do ramble on Baruch. Lay off the booze.

Modern people are just ancient people with fancier clothes and faster chariots.  The past is always prologue.

Yay integration, yay tolerance, and three cheers for multiculturalism.

2015 will be looked back upon in 100 years as a key year in the gradual erosion of Europeans in Europe.

Quote from: SilentFutility on January 12, 2016, 06:08:28 PM
Yay integration, yay tolerance, and three cheers for multiculturalism.

2015 will be looked back upon in 100 years as a key year in the gradual erosion of Europeans in Europe.

Europeans are hybrids anyway.  Think doing the boggie with Neanderthals ... but that was before the Indo-Europeans got there.

Quote from: SilentFutility on January 12, 2016, 06:08:28 PM
Yay integration, yay tolerance, and three cheers for multiculturalism.

2015 will be looked back upon in 100 years as a key year in the gradual erosion of Europeans in Europe.

Hmm... for some reason a European crying about their ethnicity being eroded just doesn't hit me. Guess it's probably karma for hundreds and hundreds of years destroying any non-white culture that just makes their "plight" hard to sympathize with. Shit... Europeans destroying each other's culture all the time (to this day)... see the Sami or Basque people.

White people here in the states cried the same thing; that the immigrants were going to destroy the TRUE American (WASP). They are no longer the majority... but they still seem to be doing quite well for themselves despite the end of the world cries.

(http://pages.ramapo.edu/~theed/MLS%20610%20Multiethnic/images/f%20Feb%2028%20Meditterrians/a%20anti_italian02%20b.jpg)

(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/7c/27/06/7c2706571a734a21496af27c9621464d.jpg)

(http://questgarden.com/12/37/9/051210192950/images/We_Dont_want_any_Japs_here_ever.jpg)

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7e/Man_holding_sign_during_Iranian_hostage_crisis_protest,_1979.jpg)

Same shit different day... the "poor criminals" are invading our country... raping our women... bringing violence and a culture completely and utterly incompatible to ours with their foreign religion and radical ideologies. They are terrorists! Anarchists! Communists! Socialists! Islamists! They will take our jobs and out populate us! They are the biggest threat the world has ever seen.

I think only some Asian countries like China and Korea have the WASP beat in racial insecurity. It's like people collectively cut off their brains in history class. Whites (sorry... "Europeans") won't be going the way of the dodo any time soon.

Shiranu wrote:

QuoteWhites (sorry... "Europeans") won't be going the way of the dodo any time soon.  - Unfortunately.

Fixed it for you.

Quote from: pr126 on January 13, 2016, 01:24:16 AM
Shiranu wrote:Fixed it for you.

Like whites are some separate being? Are the whites going to be killed off? Are they going to be put in internment camps because of the colour of their skin? Will they be forced to be slaves because they have blue eyes?

Whites are human just like everyone else. If they "die off" it's because enough people with white skin had sex with people with brown skin and now the mean is somewhere in between. Whites don't have some inherent monopoly on civilization or culture. A baby born with white skin is not somehow different from a baby born with brown skin because he was born to a "European" and the brown "a Middle Easterner or African".

The fact that you even think in terms like that... that the "Whites" (True Europeans... like there aren't any black or brown Europeans) are going to decline and this is somehow a good or a bad thing... tell's me that you really need to take some basic biology. We are the same species. Sorry I know how that must disgust you. But we are.

Quote from: Shiranu on January 13, 2016, 02:02:57 AM
Like whites are some separate being? Are the whites going to be killed off? Are they going to be put in internment camps because of the colour of their skin? Will they be forced to be slaves because they have blue eyes?

Whites are human just like everyone else. If they "die off" it's because enough people with white skin had sex with people with brown skin and now the mean is somewhere in between. Whites don't have some inherent monopoly on civilization or culture. A baby born with white skin is not somehow different from a baby born with brown skin because he was born to a "European" and the brown "a Middle Easterner or African".

The fact that you even think in terms like that... that the "Whites" (True Europeans... like there aren't any black or brown Europeans) are going to decline and this is somehow a good or a bad thing... tell's me that you really need to take some basic biology. We are the same species. Sorry I know how that must disgust you. But we are.

You are misreading posts. Again. Go on, get some sleep.

Quote from: pr126 on January 13, 2016, 02:31:06 AM
You are misreading posts. Again. Go on, get some sleep.

QuoteYay integration, yay tolerance, and three cheers for multiculturalism.

2015 will be looked back upon in 100 years as a key year in the gradual erosion of Europeans in Europe.

Tell me... what part of that isn't implying that the "rise" of non-Europeans (see: Non-whites) migrating to Europe is going to destroy "Europeans" (See: Whites)?

Complete open gate? I don't think it's going to work and is not a great idea. But even at the rate they are going Muslims (which let's keep it real is the group in question... so not all immigrants) will only make up a grand total of 8 percent of Europe's population in 20 years. So in a hundred? Impossible to say because the world changes so much in that time. I mentioned it in another thread; my dad would be over 100 years old. I grew up with someone who was around before basically the entire modern world was even a dream... who saw (and fought) in the rise of one of the most "evil" governments in human history and watched the isolationist America become an empire that rivaled the greatest. In my life time the world has become linked in ways that even 10 years before I was born it was the stuff of science fiction.

So I don't pretend to know the future... all I can do is look at the past. And the past tells me that for all these cries that our way of life is on the edge... and soon the end times of this grand civilization will be upon us... that these are just the scared rumblings of people who see hard times and lack the historical vision to see that everything will come and everything will pass. Good people will never be destroyed by destructive ideologies or evil men. And as education and standard of living becomes more and more widespread... good people become stronger than ever.

I just refuse to live in fear of boogiemen. Even if I hadn't grown up a descendant of two cultures that were the "evil destroying our civilization" of the day... I can look at history and see the cyclical nature of the rhetoric you preach.

Your fear mongering will not take our civilization into a better place; America did not progress because of McCarthyism or internment camps... nor did civilization collapse when African Americans were "raping all our white women" and destroying the "Good ol' American way of life!". I don't believe America is any different than any other country in that regard.

Quote from: SilentFutility on January 12, 2016, 06:08:28 PM
Yay integration, yay tolerance, and three cheers for multiculturalism.

2015 will be looked back upon in 100 years as a key year in the gradual erosion of Europeans in Europe.

Didn't you just get your 'knickers' in a twist because a Scottish poster made his flag a signature very short time ago? Although you have worn union jack -nothing else, but just avatar + sig bright- for a long time in the forum?

Myeh. You are not a healthy candidate to attest for "the gradual erosion of 'Europeans' in Europe". 

A word about the Europeans not reproducing.

With the world population is now over 7 billion and rapidly rising, the scarcity of fresh water and food among other dwindling resources, not reproducing like "fruit flies" should be not viewed in the negative.

Further more, some Europeans are aware of the enormous cost of raising a child, if the parents want a decent future for them, and not just pumping out children for the numbers.

In other part of the world these things doesn't matter, because some god or allah will take care of them. So they hope.
Meanwhile they are dying because lack of food and fresh water.

In the not too distant future there will be wars started for resources such as water.
Every day I see ads on the TV to donate money for starving children or water aid foR Africa.


Anyway, that's my 2 cents worth.

Quote from: pr126 on January 13, 2016, 03:09:31 AM
In the not too distant future there will be wars started for resources such as water.

Will? Not too distant future?

FFS, do you actually know anything about the Syrian crisis you keep ranting on?

Your head is so far up your ass, you'll literally suffacote one of these days. :sad2:

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0ahUKEwi5-cKitabKAhWK5xoKHUjaCn8QFggKMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbc.com%2Fnews%2Fworld-africa-32016763&usg=AFQjCNEq3Mq_s8GEQzQ_5YCV6zYz-uIPXQ&sig2=s9k5JnWwI-T7WnsfZyh2yg

Quote from: pr126 on January 13, 2016, 03:57:46 AM
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0ahUKEwi5-cKitabKAhWK5xoKHUjaCn8QFggKMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbc.com%2Fnews%2Fworld-africa-32016763&usg=AFQjCNEq3Mq_s8GEQzQ_5YCV6zYz-uIPXQ&sig2=s9k5JnWwI-T7WnsfZyh2yg

And?

And. Looks like you have a mild case of Tourette's.
Have it seen to before you will become antisocial. Or is it too late?

No, I need an eye doctor. Reading your posts is a natural cause for reflexive heavy eye rolling.

Quote from: Shiranu on January 12, 2016, 09:33:15 PM
Hmm... for some reason a European crying about their ethnicity being eroded just doesn't hit me. Guess it's probably karma for hundreds and hundreds of years destroying any non-white culture that just makes their "plight" hard to sympathize with. Shit... Europeans destroying each other's culture all the time (to this day)... see the Sami or Basque people.

White people here in the states cried the same thing; that the immigrants were going to destroy the TRUE American (WASP). They are no longer the majority... but they still seem to be doing quite well for themselves despite the end of the world cries.

(http://pages.ramapo.edu/~theed/MLS%20610%20Multiethnic/images/f%20Feb%2028%20Meditterrians/a%20anti_italian02%20b.jpg)

(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/7c/27/06/7c2706571a734a21496af27c9621464d.jpg)

(http://questgarden.com/12/37/9/051210192950/images/We_Dont_want_any_Japs_here_ever.jpg)

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7e/Man_holding_sign_during_Iranian_hostage_crisis_protest,_1979.jpg)

Same shit different day... the "poor criminals" are invading our country... raping our women... bringing violence and a culture completely and utterly incompatible to ours with their foreign religion and radical ideologies. They are terrorists! Anarchists! Communists! Socialists! Islamists! They will take our jobs and out populate us! They are the biggest threat the world has ever seen.

I think only some Asian countries like China and Korea have the WASP beat in racial insecurity. It's like people collectively cut off their brains in history class. Whites (sorry... "Europeans") won't be going the way of the dodo any time soon.

The entirety of human history is full of bloodshed, perpetrated by people of all continents.

On an unrelated note to what you said about how much white people suck, taking in massive amounts of new arrivals, many of which are 18-24 year old men, is going to cause social problems in any society. There have been social issues due to a lack of integration of migrants for many years in a lot of western countries, and they are now increasing significantly.

Massive skewing of the gender ratio is not good for a society, massive amounts of young men with little prospects is also a huge contributor to social problems such as crime and anti-social behaviour, forced "integration" destroys areas, people who saved their entire lives to go into debt to buy houses have had them plummet in value due to huge camps on their doorsteps, children are going to school where their school halls are camps and they are going to school with large groups of anti-social young men hanging around. This is not to mention larger events which have occurred like sexual violence and the fact that among innocent migrants searching for a better life there are also those who wish to carry out acts of terror.

Providing better aid and better peacekeeping and actually tackling the crises that are driving people from their homes would have been far better than the response from Europe's leaders, which has effectively been to throw bombs at it and hope that it goes away.

Obviously all the people who were sexually assaulted in Cologne on NYE were just at the recieving end of karma due to the colour of their skin weren't they? You are actually so racially biased against white people it's honestly a bit amazing. I made a comment on the fact that integration is failing and that Europe won't have many natives left in the future and you launch into a tirade about how bad white people are? That's the equivalent of someone saying how bad the Syrian civil war is and someone else launching into a racially charged rant about how they deserve it due to what brown people did. It's simply absurd and illogical.

FYI I share none of the sentiments in the pictures you posted, but you apparently still think that because I'm white I'm somehow complicit in racism that occurred before my birth?! Get real.

Stick your fingers in your ears and deny that there is any problem whatsoever with the biggest refugee crisis since WW2, and the massive scale of human suffering all you like, because never mind all that, it's a good opportunity to say that white people suck.

Some years ago I wrote about "Eurabia" which is the transformation of Europe into an Arabic [Islamic] continent.

This was then summaraly dismissed as a conspiracy. Scorn and derision.
It looks more realistic now.

The book contains plenty of evidence in documents, minutes to meetings, links to web sites.
But who could be bothered to read and confirm the veracity of it all?

Eurabia: The Euro-Arab Axis  (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Eurabia-Euro-Arab-Axis-Bat-Yeor-ebook/dp/B004FN2C40/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1453785378&sr=1-1&keywords=bat+yeor)

QuoteThis book is about the transformation of Europe into "Eurabia," a cultural and political appendage of the Arab/Muslim world. Eurabia is fundamentally anti-Christian, anti-Western, anti-American, and antisemitic. The institution that has been responsible for this transformation, and that continues to propagate its ideological message, is the Euro-Arab Dialogue, developed by European and Arab politicians and intellectuals over the past thirty years.

MEDEA The Euro-Arab Dialogue (http://www.medea.be/en/themes/euro-mediterranean-cooperation/euro-arab-dialogue/)

QuoteThe Euro-Arab Dialogue as a forum shared by the European Community and the League of Arab States arose out of a French initiative and was launched at the European Council in Copenhagen in December 1973, shortly after the « October War » and the oil embargo. As the Europeans saw it, it was to be a forum to discuss economic affairs, whereas the Arab side saw it rather as one to discuss political affairs.

There was a need for innovation as the Community and the League had at that time very little experience with structured dialogues with other institutions. Thus the main bodies of the Dialogue were created: the « Ministerial Troika », « General Committee » and working committees.

The Troika which has entered into normal Community practices with non-member states was initiated to assist the country in the Presidency of the Council for matters of Political Cooperation and to ensure continuity. For the Dialogue, the Troika consists of representatives from both sides from the current, previous and next presidencies.

The composition of the General Commmission, central body of the Dialogue, is left to the discretion of the two sides. It is thanks to this so-called « Dublin Compromise » that the PLO has also been able to take part in the Dialogue.

The activity of the Dialogue was suspended in 1979 upon request of the League of Arab States, following the Camp David Agreements, after only four sessions of the General Committee. With the Venice Declaration in June 1980, the Community decided it was time to work on the political aspects of the Dialogue and organized a preparatory meeting for the General Committee in Athens in December 1983. Egypt’s conspicuous absence due to its suspension from all activity of the League of Arab States was enough to prevent full resumption of activity.

Following Egypt’s return, there was a further attempt to relaunch the Dialogue in December 1989, once again following an initiative of France â€" who held the EC Presidency at the time â€" with a Euro-Arab Ministerial Conference being convened in Paris. The Conference was followed in June 1990 by a meeting of the General Commission of the Dialogue. The Gulf Crisis and the Arab splits and differences which followed have blocked the Dialogue in the meantime.

The EU has aspirations to become another Roman Empire.
But it will be destroyed by the barbarians even before it is started.

As a Jewish person, I have mixed feelings about the Roman Empire.  If you wanted that, y'all should have backed Mussolini and not that German post card painter.  Then the post WW II de-colonization wouldn't have happened, y'all could have made them die over there, so they wouldn't die over here (Europe).

(http://i.imgur.com/grD6K50.jpg) "Yes yes, bring all the migrants here, so I can be seen as a humanita.. I mean so we can help them, yes thats right"
(http://i.imgur.com/WtwH1VU.jpg) "And in latest news, german citizens are forced to give up there homes to refugees, as thousends storm into the country"
(http://i.imgur.com/grD6K50.jpg) "Oh.. urm.. well maybe we might consider lessening the numbers a little...
(http://i.imgur.com/WtwH1VU.jpg) "this just in, dozens of german woman gang raped by migrant, most of whom are posing as children despite being in their 40s"
(http://i.imgur.com/grD6K50.jpg) "Oh bother.. well, we could look to closing the borders and.."
(http://i.imgur.com/WtwH1VU.jpg) "And yes, it would appear that the people of germany are looking to hang angela merkel"
(http://i.imgur.com/grD6K50.jpg) "Oh shit.. Okay, lets think about this now, maybe if we stopped war, and send them all back"
(http://i.imgur.com/DiJKDRh.jpg) "Not likely bitch, allahu akbar"
(http://i.imgur.com/grD6K50.jpg) ".. f**k.."

Shit.... Where does all this fearmongering crap come from?

Quote from: facebook164 on January 31, 2016, 12:10:48 AM
Shit.... Where does all this fearmongering crap come from?

The Amish. Or Westboro Baptist? Lutherans? Mormons? Jains? Confucians? Taoist? I don't know.

Quote from: pr126 on January 31, 2016, 12:21:13 AM
The Amish. Or Westboro Baptist? Lutherans? Mormons? Jains? Confucians? Taoist? I don't know.

No, you and your likes.

Quote from: facebook164 on January 31, 2016, 12:10:48 AM
Shit.... Where does all this fearmongering crap come from?

Xenophobia is endemic to humanity, back to the Stone Age.  When one hunting party in New Guinea meets strangers (another hunting party) then in mutually unintelligible languages they say to each other ... "What the f&^%k!  If you don't have any fear, then you haven't met any of your triggers, but they are there.  There is an anthropologist photo, from 50 or more years ago, where a New Guinea native meets a White person for the first time ... the look on his face is like he just met the Alien from Alien.

Quote from: pr126 on January 31, 2016, 12:21:13 AM
The Amish. Or Westboro Baptist? Lutherans? Mormons? Jains? Confucians? Taoist? I don't know.

Naw, it's all those fear-mongering empire building greedy capitalists.

Quote from: josephpalazzo on February 01, 2016, 12:08:01 PM
Naw, it's all those fear-mongering empire building greedy capitalists.

Unfortunately the capitalists have less dirty shirts than the communists ... not clean shirts.  But then puritanism is a disease, not a religion.  I will take the capitalists over the communists in a showdown ... anyone thinking Castro will still invade the US and rape all our women?  In this newer age, the capitalists are the only bastards left standing ...

 Those $10,000 “Refugee” Boats (http://gatesofvienna.net/2016/02/those-10000-refugee-boats/)

Quote from: pr126 on February 10, 2016, 02:05:37 AM
Those $10,000 “Refugee” Boats (http://gatesofvienna.net/2016/02/those-10000-refugee-boats/)

It's the law of supply and demand: there is a demand for this service, someone will step in to supply it. If the demand grows bigger than the supply, the price will rise. This year 2016 will be break or make as European countries are waking up to a problem that's turning into a nightmare. While there was a lot of sympathy for the refugees in the media, expect a reversal this year as countries like Germany and Sweden are overwhelmed with huge problems with those already in their country.

Quote from: josephpalazzo on February 10, 2016, 06:20:23 AM
It's the law of supply and demand: there is a demand for this service, someone will step in to supply it. If the demand grows bigger than the supply, the price will rise. This year 2016 will be break or make as European countries are waking up to a problem that's turning into a nightmare. While there was a lot of sympathy for the refugees in the media, expect a reversal this year as countries like Germany and Sweden are overwhelmed with huge problems with those already in their country.

the media forecast another 3 million for 2016. Then the "family reunification,  muliply by 3-4 fold or even more.

Quote from: facebook164 on January 31, 2016, 12:10:48 AM
Shit.... Where does all this fearmongering crap come from?

If you follow the Bristish-American media specifically, you could observe that the Refugee Crisis has been turned into a campaign of 'muslim minorites are raping everyone' and the 'news' of 1 in 4 Swedish women 'will be raped' is the main title of reference. Also Norway is getting dragged into this too. (I am serious, you can check this.)

Most Americans and people from continental Europe in this forum (except a very few) has a certain, very poor vision of the world Refugee Crisis. This is the caricatruised reflection of it.

Quote from: pr126 on February 10, 2016, 06:24:09 AM
the media forecast another 3 million for 2016. Then the "family reunification,  muliply by 3-4 fold or even more.

Indeed, as winter recedes and the welcoming mat is no longer there, I see a lot of violence. This will effect Europe's economy, and by ricochet, the world's economy which is already in a fragile state. The year 2016 is not going to be a good one. And the US won't be there as the Pax Americana is falling apart everywhere, and the country is mired into gridlock and paralysis. Trouble waters are ahead. Anyway, that's what my crystal ball is telling me. Hope I'm wrong.

Quote from: josephpalazzo on February 10, 2016, 06:50:19 AM
Indeed, as winter recedes and the welcoming mat is no longer there, I see a lot of violence. This will effect Europe's economy, and by ricochet, the world's economy which is already in a fragile state. The year 2016 is not going to be a good one. And the US won't be there as the Pax Americana is falling apart everywhere, and the country is mired into gridlock and paralysis. Trouble waters are ahead. Anyway, that's what my crystal ball is telling me. Hope I'm wrong.

I am sure that the US will not be neglected by the immigration. Obama will import as many as he can.
Canada has voted for an Islamophile, so North America is also blessed by Allah.

If there are enough Americans drinking the Democrat Koolaid, then you are screwed for the next 4 -8 years. After that, nothing matters anymore.

This whole messed up media 'refugee rape' campaign can actually BACKFIRE on the USA elections.

There is almost nothing on British-American mass media portals -anything in English- but 'massive muslim rape crisis'. People are being subjected to this bullshit left and right, up and down.

Americans are already isolated, has a paranoid bullshit culture of 'everybody is out to get us' ready to jump on the gun with 'kill it'. We are talking about people who defend assault weapons as a simple right, people who think people dropping like flies is a result of mentall ill people, but nothing else with 'excuses' like 'there are people waiting out there to break in my home and rape my wife or daughter' and 'oh and I love guns, they are like cars'.

They are not going to listen anything, but only HEAR men like Donald Trump AND VOTE for men like Ted Cruz.

And people like you think this is a good thing, 'because they are against them filthy muzzlims'. Well, there is no cure for willful ignorance and painful stupidity.

Do you have any idea what would be the consequences if Republicans win -IN THIS CLIMATE, AFTER 8 YEARS OF DEFEAT- the elections for American people, for Middle Eastern people, for European people?

In short, why are you so fucking stupid?

Quote from: pr126 on February 10, 2016, 06:58:18 AM
I am sure that the US will not be neglected by the immigration. Obama will import as many as he can.
Canada has voted for an Islamophile, so North America is also blessed by Allah.

If there are enough Americans drinking the Democrat Koolaid, then you are screwed for the next 4 -8 years. After that, nothing matters anymore.

In my estimation, Sanders doesn't have much of a chance of winning. If he does, it will be gridlock for 4 more years. OTOH, Clinton is one tough cookie with a lot of experience. Right now, she's the better bet from all the candidates on both sides of the aisle. On the Republican side, Trump has pledged to make America great again. I don't know how competent he would be as "being good in business" does not translate easily into "being good in politics". The rest of the Republican nominees are lame, uninspiring and suffer from a lack of imagination. On the international scene, 2016 being an election year, the US will be nothing but a spectator to what is happening in Europe and the Middle East.

HRC cares about wealth and power. America comes as a poor second. Bad choice.
Plus too many Muslim Brotherhood connections.
They will put her into the oval office.
Just watch.

Quote from: pr126 on February 10, 2016, 12:14:29 PM
HRC cares about wealth and power. America comes as a poor second. Bad choice.
Plus too many Muslim Brotherhood connections.
They will put her into the oval office.
Just watch.

Hmm, there's also the fact that HRC is in bed with billionaire Haim Saban, who  has openly commented, “I’m a one-issue guy, and my issue is Israel.” So, you get all sorts of comments: she's pro-Islam; she's pro-Israel.

http://mycatbirdseat.com/2015/06/91758hawkish-hillary-clinton-and-her-israel-first-political-sugar-daddy-haim-saban/

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=fd2_1455070923

QuotePlus too many Muslim Brotherhood connections.
They will put her into the oval office.

(http://i.imgur.com/nibk9Pn.gif)

Quote from: pr126 on February 11, 2016, 12:54:52 AM
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=fd2_1455070923

That cannot be true.  That woman is really making up stories. It's a right-wing conspiracy...

A friendly warning for our EU members ...

Even the EU immigration commissioner says ... the if the EU council doesn't do something quick, that actually works, the EU only has 10 more days before the haggis hits the fan.  Others give y'all 2-3 weeks more.  I plan on stocking up for a banking holiday, I would suggest you do the same.  Basically the strategy in the US (and probably in the EU) is a lock-down.  Nobody leaves or enters, or Nigel Farange gets it.  He has already faced one or more assassination attempts recently.  The US will not be immune.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjPBp6DOwgU

This is the real world even today, without all the PC bullshit.

Quote from: pr126 on February 11, 2016, 12:54:52 AM
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=fd2_1455070923

So there is basically a war over there in streets according to what she is telling. How is it that we didn't see anything in the media I have no idea, but OK. Seriously, sincerely I take everything she says and believe it. 

Police doesn't work. Law doesn't work. And the government is not doing anything about it. So they are trying to annihilate their own people?

Why? What is it? What is the catch?

Quote from: Shiranu on January 12, 2016, 09:33:15 PM
Hmm... for some reason a European crying about their ethnicity being eroded just doesn't hit me. Guess it's probably karma for hundreds and hundreds of years destroying any non-white culture that just makes their "plight" hard to sympathize with. Shit... Europeans destroying each other's culture all the time (to this day)... see the Sami or Basque people.

White people here in the states cried the same thing; that the immigrants were going to destroy the TRUE American (WASP). They are no longer the majority... but they still seem to be doing quite well for themselves despite the end of the world cries.

(http://pages.ramapo.edu/~theed/MLS%20610%20Multiethnic/images/f%20Feb%2028%20Meditterrians/a%20anti_italian02%20b.jpg)

(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/7c/27/06/7c2706571a734a21496af27c9621464d.jpg)

(http://questgarden.com/12/37/9/051210192950/images/We_Dont_want_any_Japs_here_ever.jpg)

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7e/Man_holding_sign_during_Iranian_hostage_crisis_protest,_1979.jpg)

Same shit different day... the "poor criminals" are invading our country... raping our women... bringing violence and a culture completely and utterly incompatible to ours with their foreign religion and radical ideologies. They are terrorists! Anarchists! Communists! Socialists! Islamists! They will take our jobs and out populate us! They are the biggest threat the world has ever seen.

I think only some Asian countries like China and Korea have the WASP beat in racial insecurity. It's like people collectively cut off their brains in history class. Whites (sorry... "Europeans") won't be going the way of the dodo any time soon.

Amazing how you can fill Just your first sentences with so much guilt by association (of fucking race at that) and punish the sons for the sins of the fathers. And also apparently a wrong is not so wrong because of previous wrongs. Like it or not european people developed really important things like science and liberalism and the reasonable europeans who still understand the value of those things are a minority whithin the minority that is their culture worldwide. A lot of progress the human being has done would go to shit if the secular liberal democracies and their culture get swallowed by theocratic/authoritarian regimes and their culture. Also we are the inheritors of those ideas and we should seek to protect them against all anithetical ideologies be it by the name of islamism or any other.

If you got guilt from that, that only speaks to the baggage you brought in to the conversation.

The point is I don't believe in running around crying that the end it's a coming and doomsday awaits every time the white majority claims the big brown wolf is coming to get them nor the capitalist or Christian who fears the en vogue boogeyman will take their slice of the pie. We say it over and over that the "good ol' days" are coming to an end and guess what... It never happens.

Do at least try to have one sentence that actually addressed what I said instead of strawmanning me, a 3/4ths European  male, as some white hating, democracy usurping fanboy of theocracy.

Quote from: Shiranu on February 26, 2016, 08:35:07 PM
If you got guilt from that, that only speaks to the baggage you brought in to the conversation.

The point is I don't believe in running around crying that the end it's a coming and doomsday awaits every time the white majority claims the big brown wolf is coming to get them nor the capitalist or Christian who fears the en vogue boogeyman will take their slice of the pie. We say it over and over that the "good ol' days" are coming to an end and guess what... It never happens.

Do at least try to have one sentence that actually addressed what I said instead of strawmanning me, a 3/4ths European  male, as some white hating, democracy usurping fanboy of theocracy.

QuoteHmm... for some reason a European crying about their ethnicity being eroded just doesn't hit me. Guess it's probably karma for hundreds and hundreds of years destroying any non-white culture that just makes their "plight" hard to sympathize with.

You literally said you find it hard to care for the erosion of the european ethnicity because it's probably karma for the colonialism of yore. Karma is the notion of a universal justice that eventually evens out the scales.You are collectivizing the european people and showing you do not care for the erosion of their ethnicity because they probably deserve it for past transgressions by their ancenstors and leaders holding the collective guilty of them as if two wrongs made one right . Its clear as day what you meant don't try to bullshit me. You could have made arguments about whether the facts actually show that the european ethnicity is being eroded by muslims or not, without any of that bullshit rhetoric that implies some really backwards ethical reasoning. Also my point was not that you are advocating theocracy or hate whites i was just stating facts about the current landscape of cultures and demographics and of our legacy as inheritors of european philosophies. My criticism of you was this part:
Amazing how you can fill Just your first sentences with so much guilt by association (of fucking race at that) and punish the sons for the sins of the fathers. And also apparently a wrong is not so wrong because of previous wrongs.

QuoteYou literally said you find it hard to care for the erosion of the european ethnicity because it's probably karma for the colonialism of yore.

Which is completely irrelevant to anything you said... unless you want to argue that "ethnicity" makes you more cultured than "lesser ethnicities" in which case you accusing me of being callused about race goes from slightly annoying to extremely comical.

Quote.You are collectivizing the european people and showing you do not care for the erosion of their ethnicity because they probably deserve it for past transgressions by their ancenstors and leaders holding the collective guilty of them as if two wrongs made one right .

Again ethnicity is a completely irrelevant and outdated concept in terms of "superiourity" so... unless you are arguing that ethnicity makes you a better person simply because you were born "white" or "Anglo" instead of "brown" or "Middle Eastern... what does it matter?

QuoteIts clear as day what you meant don't try to bullshit me.

As I said... it's you coming in to this with baggage... not me. You apparently think being born ethnically white makes you "culturally superiour" so I am not going to shed too many tears over you accusing me of being unfair to a race.

Would addressing my point not have been easier than 9 sentence post on how you believe ethnicity makes you a superiour person?

Quote from: Shiranu on February 27, 2016, 12:27:38 AM
Which is completely irrelevant to anything you said... unless you want to argue that "ethnicity" makes you more cultured than "lesser ethnicities" in which case you accusing me of being callused about race goes from slightly annoying to extremely comical.

Again ethnicity is a completely irrelevant and outdated concept in terms of "superiourity" so... unless you are arguing that ethnicity makes you a better person simply because you were born "white" or "Anglo" instead of "brown" or "Middle Eastern... what does it matter?

As I said... it's you coming in to this with baggage... not me. You apparently think being born ethnically white makes you "culturally superiour" so I am not going to shed too many tears over you accusing me of being unfair to a race.

Would addressing my point not have been easier than 9 sentence post on how you believe ethnicity makes you a superiour person?

Are you being purposely dense. People who criticize the mass migration are not talking about just skin color or other more trivial aspects of ethnicity being eroded, they are talking about culture and the valuable ideas within it. Ethnicity includes cultural aspects it is not just a synonym of race. You should know that. And yes a liberal secular democracy is superior to islamist theocratic regimes because it allows far more self determination for it's citizens. And yes being ethnically "white" will make you on average culturally superior to your average muslim in the ME just by virtue of th degree of penetration of liberal ideas in the western world and sphere of influence. And you have failed to explain why you felt the need to guilt by association the european people and you think it is karma that their ethnicity is eroded as if that was somehow justified by some historical and collectivist guilt you are laying upon them.

You are threading on cultural relativism bullshit which means you will need to justify to me how are all cultures, specially their ethical and political ideologies of equivalent values. I do not believe in objective morality but i can tell you the baseline of ethics is selfdetermination because if we are to engage the topic in a reasonable manner from the basic laws of thought then self determination follows.

(Greetings. I would like to give a general outline of my position regarding topics that involve more than one conscious being capable of rational thought.

Truth, including morality related truth, is provisional. It changes according to an ever increasing (and ever more detailed and reality matching) data set. If we consider all of existence a system and we want to remain contradiction free, then we cannot define truth within this system (see Tarski´s undefinability theorem and Godel´s incompleteness theorems).

Since we cannot define absolute moral truth (or any truth unless we have access to some meta-reality (hint: so far we do not)) within reasonable means and because the only way for us to have meaningful discussions despite differing starting points and/or values is to use reason as an axiom, it follows that we should not impose our value judgements of right and wrong without proper rational justification (which would be impossible since our value judgements stem from axioms that might not be shared or might even be arbitrary). From this amoral void, luckily, emerges a principle of self-determination, since imposition of our value judgements would necessarily imply shitting on reason (specially on the concept of burden of proof) and using force or other means to make our morality prevalent. Also making it so it does not apply to every element, humans in this particualr case, would be special pleading since almost any justification to limit the set it applies to would require value judgement at one point down the road.

Something that I like about this approach is that you could try to measure how well a society is doing (potentially bringing certain notions of progress and as a consequence of superiority) by quantifiable factors such as stability, information volume and the patterns that emerge from this self determination or lack of it (see http://arxiv.org/pdf/1410.8001v1.pdf for a rather funny example of lack of self determination disguised as the opposite at first glance...at least according to my interpretation and in the context of what I just mentioned).

Now regarding this topic, I guess you could come up with different positions given the hopefully fresh outlook I offer to this thread. Or not. Who the fuck knows.

Also reading some of you fuckers gave me cancer. Karma? Seriously? What the actual hell...)

Welcome to the forum Sirvas.

Sorry for the cancer we fuckers gave you.
Unfortunately, we are unable to pay your medical bill for the treatment you need.

But please tell us about yourself, in the introduction section.
What are you doing with your life, what are your likes, dislikes, Where are you from, and what is your favourite colour. Fetishes if any.

Incidentally, thanks for the lecture. Big thumbs up.

Be seeing you.

Quote from: Sirvas on February 27, 2016, 02:52:12 AM


Truth, including morality related truth, is provisional.

I'm not sure I can agree with that. Truth is in terms of the value of a statement. For instance, the statement, "it's raining outside", where "outside" would be a specific time and a specific location, is either true or false. In that sense, truth is not provisional. That statement is something that can be investigated, which then determines its true/false value. OTOH, if you are expressing an opinion, "Life sucks", it is almost impossible to determine if this statement is true or false as it raises questions of modality, criteria, methods of evaluation, etc. I think what you are referring here is "personal truth", the truth according to your worldview. In that sense, your "personal truth' is the set of all your opinions, and that cannot be determined as true or false. In which case your statement that "truth is provisional" would make sense.

As to Godel axiom, what it says is that any system will contain unprovable truths. In math, they are called axioms; in science, they are the hypotheses. But that system does not refer to the set of all your opinions ( your worldview) but to the type of statements I've made allusion - "it's raining outside", verifiable statements or in the case of math, tautologies. It's a common mistake to use Godel's theorem in realm it simply doesn't apply.

QuoteYou are threading on cultural relativism bullshit...

"Cultural relativism bullshit" is the very base of all the modern anthropology branches. Besides arguing now that ethnicity makes you "superiour" you now want to argue that the entire field of anthropology is bunk because it is based on a foundation of bullshit. Boaz and his "cultural relativistic bullshit" brought anthropology out of the dark ages and turned it into a legitimate science... so you have to excuse me for seeing you now like the idiots who argue evolution is bullshit and thus say the entire field of biology is bullshit.

I have nothing to prove; you are the one asserting that white ethnicity is "superiour" and that an entire branch of science is "bullshit" because you disagree with it. I might as well argue with a Klansman or a evolution denier.

I would ask the question, why are they refugee's?. This mass exodus of people fleeing from their own country occupied by a very small group of fanatics seems foreign to me. Here in Canada most every man I know would not be running away from anything but in fact the opposite into the fight. A person cannot claim to have conviction or to believe in something then at the first sign of trouble run away with their tail between their legs because it has no credibility. Not to mention the fact our soldiers over there cannot seem to train anyone because most keep dropping their weapons and running away.

This is the problem I see with religion and beliefs in this day and age where many people say one thing yet do another. They claim to be strong, intelligent, responsible adults then at the first sign of trouble they come completely unglued and start doing completely irrational shit for no apparent reason. What do they truly believe if very few are actually willing to stand up for what they believe?, very little I think.

Quote from: Shiranu on February 27, 2016, 11:58:05 AM
"Cultural relativism bullshit" is the very base of all the modern anthropology branches. Besides arguing now that ethnicity makes you "superiour" you now want to argue that the entire field of anthropology is bunk because it is based on a foundation of bullshit. Boaz and his "cultural relativistic bullshit" brought anthropology out of the dark ages and turned it into a legitimate science... so you have to excuse me for seeing you now like the idiots who argue evolution is bullshit and thus say the entire field of biology is bullshit.

I have nothing to prove; you are the one asserting that white ethnicity is "superiour" and that an entire branch of science is "bullshit" because you disagree with it. I might as well argue with a Klansman or a evolution denier.

Sociology has long been captive to "flavor of the week" politics.  Over 120 years ago, sociology was a political movement in the universities to make political policy rational, on scientific principles (not based on politics) ... so that failed.  At that time much of anthropology was about studying colonized people, and trying to find how to turn them into proper Englishmen ... so that failed.  Comparative religion then was to demonstrate that religion evolves and that Protestant Christianity is the most advanced kind ... so that failed.

Today multiculturalism is the neo-lib flavor of the week.  Mauricio may only be claiming that he is more comfortable in a society like the one he already lives in.  Anything that upsets that (and this includes Afghans) is going to be hostile to it.  Being "more comfortable" isn't the same as bigotry.  I am not bigoted toward Hispanics in the US, but that doesn't mean I want to live in the heart of the Sinaloa cartel down in Old Mexico.

They are not technically refugees, we call them that for our purposes.
They are migrants, at best economic migrants, at worst it is Hijra, which is to spread and advance Islam.

Although no one should say that. It is against the narrative. Forbidden talk.

But let's ask a question. People fleeing a war torn country.
These "refugees" are predominantly, 80 % healthy military age males. Where are the women, children, the old people? Would you leave your family behind in a war zone?

Quote from: Shiranu on February 27, 2016, 11:58:05 AM
"Cultural relativism bullshit" is the very base of all the modern anthropology branches. Besides arguing now that ethnicity makes you "superiour" you now want to argue that the entire field of anthropology is bunk because it is based on a foundation of bullshit. Boaz and his "cultural relativistic bullshit" brought anthropology out of the dark ages and turned it into a legitimate science... so you have to excuse me for seeing you now like the idiots who argue evolution is bullshit and thus say the entire field of biology is bullshit.

I have nothing to prove; you are the one asserting that white ethnicity is "superiour" and that an entire branch of science is "bullshit" because you disagree with it. I might as well argue with a Klansman or a evolution denier.

Well then give me a solid definition of cultural relativism a explain to me why we can't compare cultures against each other over certain values. Imo just by virtue of the enlightment and the scientific revolution the western culture is running ahead on ethics and epistemology, there's also the high levels of education and stability. Quality of life... I could go on, but imo clearly cultures can be compared against each other and maybe not on their absolute totality since there's so many factors but there are some pretty obvious differences which are relevant when we are talking about the possibility of a smaller valuable culture getting swallowed by another. BTW nice dodge you have completely avoided to respond to my initial criticisms of your post and took us into a tangential discussion.

Well here is some interesting stuff from the wiki article of cultural relativism:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_relativism#Comparison_to_moral_relativism
Comparison to moral relativism[edit]
According to Marcus and Fischer, when the principle of cultural relativism was popularized after World War II, it came to be understood "more as a doctrine, or position, than as a method." As a consequence, people misinterpreted cultural relativism to mean that all cultures are both separate and equal, and that all value systems, however different, are equally valid. Thus, people came to use the phrase "cultural relativism" erroneously to signify "moral relativism."

People generally understand moral relativism to mean that there are no absolute or universal moral standards. The nature of anthropological research lends itself to the search for universal standards (standards found in all societies), but not necessarily absolute standards; nevertheless, people often confuse the two. In 1944 Clyde Kluckhohn (who studied at Harvard, but who admired and worked with Boas and his students) attempted to address this issue:

The concept of culture, like any other piece of knowledge, can be abused and misinterpreted. Some fear that the principle of cultural relativity will weaken morality. "If the Bugabuga do it why can't we? It's all relative anyway." But this is exactly what cultural relativity does not mean.
The principle of cultural relativity does not mean that because the members of some savage tribe are allowed to behave in a certain way that this fact gives intellectual warrant for such behavior in all groups. Cultural relativity means, on the contrary, that the appropriateness of any positive or negative custom must be evaluated with regard to how this habit fits with other group habits. Having several wives makes economic sense among herders, not among hunters. While breeding a healthy scepticism as to the eternity of any value prized by a particular people, anthropology does not as a matter of theory deny the existence of moral absolutes. Rather, the use of the comparative method provides a scientific means of discovering such absolutes. If all surviving societies have found it necessary to impose some of the same restrictions upon the behavior of their members, this makes a strong argument that these aspects of the moral code are indispensable.[13][14]
Although Kluckholn was using language that was popular at the time (e.g. "savage tribe") but which is now considered antiquated and coarse by most anthropologists, his point was that although moral standards are rooted in one's culture, anthropological research reveals that the fact that people have moral standards is a universal. He was especially interested in deriving specific moral standards that are universal, although few if any anthropologists think that he was successful.[13]

There is an ambiguity in Kluckhohn's formulation that would haunt anthropologists in the years to come. It makes it clear that one's moral standards make sense in terms of one's culture. He waffles, however, on whether the moral standards of one society could be applied to another. Four years later American anthropologists had to confront this issue head-on.

Statement on human rights[edit]
The transformation of cultural relativism as a heuristic tool into the doctrine of moral relativism occurred in the context of the work of the Commission of Human Rights of the United Nations in preparing the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

Melville Herskovits prepared a draft "Statement on Human Rights" which Executive Board of the American Anthropological Association revised, submitted to the Commission on Human Rights, and then published.[15] The statement begins with a fairly straightforward explanation of the relevance of cultural relativism:

The problem is thus to formulate a statement of human rights that will do more than phrase respect for the individual as individual. It must also take into full account the individual as a member of a social group of which he is part, whose sanctioned modes of life shape his behavior, and with whose fate his own is thus inextricably bound
The bulk of this statement emphasizes concern that the Declaration of Human Rights was being prepared primarily by people from Western societies, and would express values that, far from being universal, are really Western:

Today the problem is complicated by the fact that the Declaration must be of world-wide applicability. It must embrace and recognize the validity of many different ways of life. It will not be convincing to the Indonesian, the African, the Chinese, if it lies on the same plane as like documents of an earlier period. The rights of Man in the Twentieth Century cannot be circumscribed by the standards of any single culture, or be dictated by the aspirations of any single people. Such a document will lead to frustration, not realization of the personalities of vast numbers of human beings.
Although this statement could be read as making a procedural point (that the Commission must involve people of diverse cultures, especially cultures that had been or are still under European colonial or imperial domination), the document ended by making two substantive claims:

Even where political systems exist that deny citizens the right of participation in their government, or seek to conquer weaker peoples, underlying cultural values may be called on to bring the peoples of such states to a realization of the consequences of the acts of their governments, and thus enforce a brake upon discrimination and conquest.
World-wide standards of freedom and justice, based on the principle that man is free only when he lives as his society defines freedom, that his rights are those he recognizes as a member of his society, must be basic.
These claims provoked an immediate response by a number of anthropologists. Julian Steward (who, as a student of Alfred Kroeber and Robert Lowie, and as a professor at Columbia University, was situated firmly in the Boasian lineage) suggested that the first claim "may have been a loophole to exclude Germany from the advocated tolerance," but that it revealed the fundamental flaw in moral relativism: "Either we tolerate everything, and keep hands off, or we fight intolerance and conquest â€" political and economic as well as military â€" in all their forms." Similarly, he questioned whether the second principle means that anthropologists "approve the social caste system of India, the racial caste system of the United States, or many other varieties of social discrimination in the world".[16] Steward and others[17] argued that any attempt to apply the principle of cultural relativism to moral problems would only end in contradiction: either a principle that seems to stand for tolerance ends up being used to excuse intolerance, or the principle of tolerance is revealed to be utterly intolerant of any society that seems to lack the (arguably, Western) value of tolerance. They concluded that anthropologists must stick to science, and engage in debates over values only as individuals.

Imo if cultural relativism is just a method to understand cultures from within themselves rather than a statement on morality and epistemology in general. Then i have no problme with it.

Every individual and society, has a view of itself internally ... and by others externally.  Both views are required.  In times past, natives/others were not allowed to speak for themselves ... we spoke for them (while arrogantly viewing them as primitives and colonized).  It is like Custer trying to tell me what it is like to be a Lakota.  He had a view, but so had Crazy Horse ... to understand what happened between those to men, you would have to understand both views.  White guilt or Native chauvinism are ... not an objective story.

Quote from: mauricio on February 27, 2016, 03:50:41 PM
BTW nice dodge you have completely avoided to respond to my initial criticisms of your post and took us into a tangential discussion.

Alas you have found me out. Perhaps if your post had addressed mine's point we wouldn't be on this wild goose chase. But here we are.

I think it's only fair that a post criticising mine for nothing to do with it's point should only be responded to in the same manner. Here... I'll sum it up one more time...

QuoteThe point is I don't believe in running around crying that the end it's a coming and doomsday awaits every time the white majority claims the big brown wolf is coming to get them nor the capitalist or Christian who fears the en vogue boogeyman will take their slice of the pie. We say it over and over that the "good ol' days" are coming to an end and guess what... It never happens.

Quote from: Shiranu on February 27, 2016, 09:20:45 PM
Alas you have found me out. Perhaps if your post had addressed mine's point we wouldn't be on this wild goose chase. But here we are.

I think it's only fair that a post criticising mine for nothing to do with it's point should only be responded to in the same manner. Here... I'll sum it up one more time...

You are just dodging I made it clear already i was criticizing the implied faulty ethics in this statement

QuoteHmm... for some reason a European crying about their ethnicity being eroded just doesn't hit me. Guess it's probably karma for hundreds and hundreds of years destroying any non-white culture that just makes their "plight" hard to sympathize with.

But honestly obviously that was getting nowhere so i was ok with moving on to the cultural relativism topic because ultimately my goal is to learn your perspective and challenge it with my own not to "win" the argument. So if you can give me a 101 of what cultural relativism means that would be great. I already posted some material which we can use to form common ground.

QuoteYou are just dodging I made it clear already i was criticizing the implied faulty ethics in this statement

Which was a quick personal aside and nothing to do with the over-arching point in the post.

Quote from: Shiranu on February 27, 2016, 10:53:20 PM
Which was a quick personal aside and nothing to do with the over-arching point in the post.

I know that. In my first response to that post i did not want to criticize your over-arching point i just wanted to address that part. I probably should have quoted with precision but editing large posts on this device im using is a fucking chore. Thought i did specifically say i was talking about your first sentences if you go back and read it. Then i went on to explaining some of my insight on the whole "white culture dying due to the foreing cultural subversion " thingy which was not an specific criticism of you nor was it really very in depth. It was just a criticism against a generalized notion of "cultural relativists" who may have forgotten that everything they know and value may not be if not for their intellectual ancenstors and how small and tenuous this legacy is demographic wise.

Baruch

QuoteEvery individual and society, has a view of itself internally ... and by others externally.  Both views are required.  In times past, natives/others were not allowed to speak for themselves ... we spoke for them (while arrogantly viewing them as primitives and colonized).  It is like Custer trying to tell me what it is like to be a Lakota.  He had a view, but so had Crazy Horse ... to understand what happened between those to men, you would have to understand both views.  White guilt or Native chauvinism are ... not an objective story.

I hear you, I have always been on the cutting edge of science and technology and I live it but that is not my dream. My dream is a nice little log cabin on a clear calm lake with me sitting on the dock with a fishing rod in one hand and a warm cup of coffee in the other. It would seem a contradiction but I do not see it that way. Science is fundamentally the study of natural phenomena thus no matter how far removed I may think I am from nature, always, I am within it's realm.

I like your post and history always has a certain neutrality with respect to time. What seemed right at the time is seen later as an abomination. The key word here is insight and reflecting on how an action now might be perceived in the future. If we know the answer then why not act accordingly, do what we imagine may be right in the future now. Being ahead of the curve is most often a good thing.

QuotePeople generally understand moral relativism to mean that there are no absolute or universal moral standards.

Then those people would not mind living in the culture of say, Saudi Arabia (see below), or Iran, where the state executes gays, or the killing fields of Iraq, or Syria.

If all cultures are relative, all morals are relative, there is no way we can discern right from wrong, they are not wrong, just different.
This looks like an idea from the Frankfurt School. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfurt_School)



Saudi court sentences a man to 2,000 lashes and 10 years in jail for denying the existence of God and ridiculing the Qu'ran on Twitter[/quote]

(http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3467137/Saudi-court-sentences-man-2-000-lashes-10-years-jail-denying-existence-God-ridiculing-Qu-ran-Twitter.html?ito=social-twitter_mailonline)

QuoteA man has been sentenced to 2,000 lashes and 10 years in prison for expressing his atheist views on Twitter in Saudia Arabia.

Religious police, who monitor social networking sites, found more than 600 tweets from the 28-year-old's Twitter account which denied the existence of God and ridiculed verses in the Qu'ran.

Some of the messages also accused all prophets of lying and said their teaching fueled hostilities and wars.

I know which culture I chose, and damn cultural relativity.
The problem starts when the cultures are forced to "tolerate" each other. In glorious multiculturalism.
It does not work.The results of this failed social experiment can be seen in Europe.