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Extraordinary Claims => Religion General Discussion => Other Religions => Topic started by: Brian37 on June 21, 2015, 11:30:11 AM

Title: The concept of ALL religions IS the cause of racism. OP/ED........
Post by: Brian37 on June 21, 2015, 11:30:11 AM
I think one thing completely ignored by humans in acts like that of Roof, is the claim that it had nothing to do with religion. When you look at what Roof soaked up online that lead him to this horrible act, one would be stupid to claim that the KKK was not founded as a religious organization. Racism is a direct result of religion, regardless of any empathy liberals of faith or atheists want to claim can be separated. Religion itself, regardless of label, in our species history sets up tribalism. It is why white Tea Party Baptists, and black southern Baptists, can share the same label, but be radically different polar opposites on politics and economics.

And even outside this country, I was called "racist" by a Hindu from India after I told them their religion was not special. That was even after I pointed out atheists groups on facebook started by citizens of India who were born in Hindu families but simply left the religion. Even with Palestine and Israel, religion produces the racism BOTH can and do rightfully point to about the other. It is the same after the Hebdo attacks in France, and both Jews and Muslims would be RIGHT in saying they suffer discrimination. Racism is a product of religion, and is what religion hides behind both left and right, to avoid scrutiny of religion.

I do not say this in some sort of delusional call to force religion out of existence, as if one could on a planet of 7 billion. But a call for my fellow species, which ultimately stems from the same DNA going back far enough in evolution. To understand that the concept of religion, has to be treated for what it really is, simply a reflection of local, social norms, and should not be put on a pedestal. If there had been no god of Abraham invented, there would be no KKK. If there had been no god of Abraham invented, there would be no fighting between Sunnis and Shiites. If there had been no god of Abraham invented, there would be no fighting between Jews and Palestinians. If there had been no god of Abraham there would have been no black slavery.  If there had been no god of Abraham invented, Hitler, regardless of his personal beliefs, would not have been able to convince Germans that they were God's chosen people.

Religion causes racism, it causes human divisions, there simply is no good way to be polite about what the history of this concept has done to our species in our history. If we bravely face this, we can and will manage our differences to a much greater degree.
Title: Re: The concept of ALL religions IS the cause of racism. OP/ED........
Post by: Solitary on June 21, 2015, 10:30:46 PM
I believe segregation, self imposed, or forced, contributes to racism too, as well as cultural norms that conflict.
Title: Re: The concept of ALL religions IS the cause of racism. OP/ED........
Post by: Dreamer on June 22, 2015, 01:42:46 PM
I do not see how you mention anything about how or why religion causes racism. All you did was point out how religious followers can be racist... 

That religion can be construed to support awful stances is without question. But it is something entirely different to claim religion causes racism.
Title: Re: The concept of ALL religions IS the cause of racism. OP/ED........
Post by: the_antithesis on June 22, 2015, 03:02:33 PM
I don't know if it's the cause of all racism and whether it's a cause or side effect is a chicken/egg conundrum, but racism is inherent in religion, at least back in humanity's tribal days when one group of sheep fucking Bedouins decided they were better than the neighboring tribe of sheep fucking Bedouins because they were the bestest sheep fuckers around and they were their god's chosen people.

So, yeah. Religion and racism were queefed out of the same vagina.
Title: Re: The concept of ALL religions IS the cause of racism. OP/ED........
Post by: trdsf on June 22, 2015, 06:04:37 PM
Whether it causes racism or not, I don't know, but it can always be bent to its service.  Religion is about, as antithesis pointed out, tribalism and us vs them, just as racism is.

Not all religious people are racist... but slavery and antimiscegenation laws were (and anti-gay laws are) "justified" in the name of religion, not in terms of a Constitutional principle.  And while it's not impossible for an atheist, agnostic or other non-religious person to be racist, I've never met one.
Title: Re: The concept of ALL religions IS the cause of racism. OP/ED........
Post by: PickelledEggs on June 22, 2015, 06:57:57 PM
Racism is caused by people being afraid of what is different from them. Religion doesn't cause it necessarily, but it definitely is rocket-fuel for it.
Title: Re: The concept of ALL religions IS the cause of racism. OP/ED........
Post by: Termin on June 25, 2015, 11:46:31 AM
   Since humans created religion,and humans created racism, Humans are the source for racism. Religion may be used to spread or even justify racism, but it is not the root cause imo.
Title: Re: The concept of ALL religions IS the cause of racism. OP/ED........
Post by: Baruch on August 08, 2015, 07:16:30 AM
Racism also involves the cruel application of political power ... not just bigotry.  And religion is closely tied to political power.
Title: Re: The concept of ALL religions IS the cause of racism. OP/ED........
Post by: Solitary on August 08, 2015, 09:34:23 AM
The Judeo-Christian-Islamic beliefs are all based on magical thinking and irrational, just as racism, that is supported by organized religion and taught to young innocent children which perpetuates being irrational and a racist and bigot. So I would say these religions do promote and justify racism by using proselytizing to children that causes them to be racists and bigots, and adults that follow the religious teachings to the letter that can't think for themselves and need authority to guide them like little children do.   :madu:
Title: Re: The concept of ALL religions IS the cause of racism. OP/ED........
Post by: Baruch on August 08, 2015, 12:13:46 PM
Racism is based on magical thinking ... you are correct.  All of politics is based on "the free lunch" ... and is magical thinking.  Racism is just one ugly part of it.  But magic, as in psychosomatic control of people's beliefs and actions, is real ... it is the very meat of politics ... and formal religion.
Title: Re: The concept of ALL religions IS the cause of racism. OP/ED........
Post by: Solitary on August 08, 2015, 01:15:31 PM
Oh quit being so damn wise!  :cool:
Title: Re: The concept of ALL religions IS the cause of racism. OP/ED........
Post by: drunkenshoe on August 08, 2015, 03:25:38 PM
How is it possible that not one of the posters responded to this thread typed the word nationalism.
Title: Re: The concept of ALL religions IS the cause of racism. OP/ED........
Post by: AllPurposeAtheist on August 08, 2015, 06:37:55 PM
Quote from: drunkenshoe on August 08, 2015, 03:25:38 PM
How is it possible that not one of the posters responded to this thread typed the word nationalism.
Bingo!  You just earned one official Turkish cookie. :lol:
Title: Re: The concept of ALL religions IS the cause of racism. OP/ED........
Post by: Baruch on August 08, 2015, 07:29:26 PM
We are all part of the Matrix (nationalism is a super duper tribe .. no tribe, no survival ... the bigger the tribe, the more likely the survival ... don't like survival ... then go and die but leave me out of it).  But technically, nationalism is an ideology ... and ideology isn't usually equated with theology.  Ideology is how we divide ourselves up secularly ... theology is how we divide ourselves up spiritually.  Divide and conquer.
Title: Re: The concept of ALL religions IS the cause of racism. OP/ED........
Post by: CrucifyCindy on August 08, 2015, 08:49:50 PM
Both nature and nuture are the primary causes of racism. The human animal is naturally tribal and our upbringing and culture enforces that tribalism.
Title: Re: The concept of ALL religions IS the cause of racism. OP/ED........
Post by: Baruch on August 08, 2015, 09:14:54 PM
Exactly, but my tribe is better than your tribe, and so if you tribe has stuff we want (oil) then we are going to come and take it from you ... or at least negotiate terms favorable to my tribe ;-(
Title: Re: The concept of ALL religions IS the cause of racism. OP/ED........
Post by: CrucifyCindy on August 08, 2015, 09:23:04 PM
While religion is not a primary cause of racism or tribalism, it serves to reinforce racism and/or tribalism (I personally see no difference between racism or tribalism). Which is the one of the purposes of religion...it is a tool for order.
Title: Re: The concept of ALL religions IS the cause of racism. OP/ED........
Post by: aitm on August 08, 2015, 09:54:11 PM
Quote from: CrucifyCindy on August 08, 2015, 09:23:04 PM
While religion is not a primary cause of racism or tribalism, it serves to reinforce racism and/or tribalism (I personally see no difference between racism or tribalism). Which is the one of the purposes of religion...it is a tool for order.
This is also the reason religion is so cultural and regional. If a real god existed muslims might suddenly exclaim," jesus came to me in a dream" or christians may say, "mohammad spoke to me last night"…alas, this does not happen. People believe in the god their culture created, which happens to explain why prayers are equally ineffective to any god.
Title: Re: The concept of ALL religions IS the cause of racism. OP/ED........
Post by: CrucifyCindy on August 08, 2015, 10:47:05 PM
Quote from: aitm on August 08, 2015, 09:54:11 PM
People believe in the god their culture created, which happens to explain why prayers are equally ineffective to any god.

A person's god is the embodiment of their culture just as a culture's sacred law is nothing more than their prejuduce and taboos made sacred.
Title: Re: The concept of ALL religions IS the cause of racism. OP/ED........
Post by: Baruch on August 08, 2015, 11:02:30 PM
You can find out the most about a person, by finding out what is taboo to them.  And a person can find out the most about themselves, by confronting those taboos.  Not that you have to go all sociopath or psychopath ... but being unconscious of the most critical parts of oneself ... isn't enlightenment.  Anyway, that was Freud's theory.

On the other hand, individuals within a given culture, can be three sigma away from the norm.  Their god won't be Norm ;-)
Title: Re: The concept of ALL religions IS the cause of racism. OP/ED........
Post by: aitm on August 09, 2015, 09:43:07 AM
Quote from: CrucifyCindy on August 08, 2015, 10:47:05 PM
A person's god is the embodiment of their culture just as a culture's sacred law is nothing more than their prejuduce and taboos made sacred.

Which is another of a very long list as to why a gods "existence" is dependent upon those who believe in it. Proof that gods are invented by man. Either they all exist, or none exist.
Title: Re: The concept of ALL religions IS the cause of racism. OP/ED........
Post by: Baruch on August 09, 2015, 10:51:28 AM
"gods" certainly exist in the minds of any that believe in them.  Humans have that kind of power of creation ... our fictions are real, on a personal, and sometimes collective plane.  This is why we are capable of manifesting Hell ... all we have to do is believe in it and desire it ... and at least in people's minds, it exists.  Unfortunately what lies in the Id (see Forbidden Planet) often manifests itself into the daylight!

The metaphysical hypothesis of G-d is something else.  It is an attempt, usually Eastern, to grasp the greatest metaphysical generalization.  But such generalizations are intellectually empty ... intellect is found in the particular, not the general.  Imagine two people playing chess.  Now imagine they are playing only in their minds without chess pieces or a chess board.  Next imagine that there are no players.  But what is metaphysical can be indirectly experienced however.
Title: Re: The concept of ALL religions IS the cause of racism. OP/ED........
Post by: aitm on August 09, 2015, 01:53:47 PM
Quote from: Baruch on August 09, 2015, 10:51:28 AM
"gods" certainly exist in the minds of any that believe in them.  Humans have that kind of power of creation ... our fictions are real, on a personal, and sometimes collective plane.  This is why we are capable of manifesting Hell ... all we have to do is believe in it and desire it ... and at least in people's minds, it exists.  Unfortunately what lies in the Id (see Forbidden Planet) often manifests itself into the daylight!

The metaphysical hypothesis of G-d is something else.  It is an attempt, usually Eastern, to grasp the greatest metaphysical generalization.  But such generalizations are intellectually empty ... intellect is found in the particular, not the general.  Imagine two people playing chess.  Now imagine they are playing only in their minds without chess pieces or a chess board.  Next imagine that there are no players.  But what is metaphysical can be indirectly experienced however.

Very nice…in layman's language…shit be made up.
Title: Re: The concept of ALL religions IS the cause of racism. OP/ED........
Post by: Baruch on August 09, 2015, 05:23:35 PM
Of course, we make things up.  That is what children do.  Fancy doth run where it will.  It is Plato that supposes that we have a magic Greek male organ that allows us to see reality.

Maybe 3-d glasses from the movie theater, while watching Avatar?  What you see is the post-processing rendition of a 2-d image on your two retinas, a rendition that can be imaged electrically on the back side of your cerebrum (above the cerebellum).  Images that originally were upside down, and can be pre-processed using something called glasses/contacts.  Really not all that different from Disney processes.  Unfortunately the only way you can "get out" of your avatar body while marooned on this barbarous planet, is by dying.  In any case, the illusion of existing and moving in 3-d is very convincing, given that what you actually experience is inside your head, not outside it ... as virtual reality systems will approximate better and better.

So it may be shit, but is very sophisticated, not developed by Disney Imagineers ... and not the result of random couplings of atoms.
Title: Re: The concept of ALL religions IS the cause of racism. OP/ED........
Post by: aitm on August 09, 2015, 07:46:22 PM
Quote from: Baruch on August 09, 2015, 05:23:35 PM
Of course, we make things up.  That is what children do.  Fancy doth run where it will.  It is Plato that supposes that we have a magic Greek male organ that allows us to see reality.

Maybe 3-d glasses from the movie theater, while watching Avatar?  What you see is the post-processing rendition of a 2-d image on your two retinas, a rendition that can be imaged electrically on the back side of your cerebrum (above the cerebellum).  Images that originally were upside down, and can be pre-processed using something called glasses/contacts.  Really not all that different from Disney processes.  Unfortunately the only way you can "get out" of your avatar body while marooned on this barbarous planet, is by dying.  In any case, the illusion of existing and moving in 3-d is very convincing, given that what you actually experience is inside your head, not outside it ... as virtual reality systems will approximate better and better.

So it may be shit, but is very sophisticated, not developed by Disney Imagineers ... and not the result of random couplings of atoms.
cool, rinse and repeat.
Title: Re: The concept of ALL religions IS the cause of racism. OP/ED........
Post by: drunkenshoe on August 10, 2015, 02:53:46 AM
I would argue that all religions were born of racism. (Not in the modern sense of course) Beacuse first of all, believing in a supernatural power(s) has nothing to do with a religious sytem that 'outlaws' another by nature and just to regulate the daily life in ancient times. They needed to survive and do everything they needed by themselves. Humans needed every kind of man power to deal with nature.

Yes may be humans usually have the tendency of not to like others who doesn't look like them as a raw animal habit, but religion is the systematic way to institutionalise that shit.

Christians are christians, because they were born in a christian country. Muslims are the same. Jews are more in a family community manner, but the root is the same. I tend to think that one of the reasons the so-called montheistic religions, abrahamic ones emerged and got successful at some point in human history, when societies some sort of 'developed' into a certain pahses in specific areas.

However, we shouldn't forget it was much different a couple of hundreds of years ago. The Nationalism, racism...and from that the tribalism we are trying to figure out looking back is all determined by French Revolution and the understanding it brought. Modern State. Before that there weren't national armies, national languages...no real policies -nor the technology- to manipulate masses in to certain one type of understanding. Railways and first newspapers are among the most important 'unifiers'. They imposed one language in one area and there was the needed better transportation.



The religion called Islam is a result of some project of unifying a certain tribe to begin with. Same with Judaism. Jesus defined as a king. And his is a kingdom. Christendom.










Title: Re: The concept of ALL religions IS the cause of racism. OP/ED........
Post by: Baruch on August 10, 2015, 06:38:56 AM
There is a trajectory from hunting band, to tribe, to kingdom, to empire, to nation, to NWO.  The larger the society, the greater power.  But the NWO is "peak" politics, and necessarily imperial.  At each stage there was the need for a unifying theology and eventually unifying ideology.  Religion in the USA is different, because it is an amalgam of theology and ideology ... where you have two primary ideologies and two primary theologies.  Smaller nations usually have one theology and one ideology, but sometimes not, like Iraq.  Nearly secular countries like GB have no theologies.  Homogenous societies are at a power disadvantage, because their growth is capped by their reproduction rate.  Heterogenous societies are at a stability disadvantage, see Rome or China.