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Science Section => Science General Discussion => Physics & Cosmology => Topic started by: Zatoichi on March 05, 2013, 01:38:33 AM

Title: Can We Ever Colonize Space?
Post by: Zatoichi on March 05, 2013, 01:38:33 AM
I think the answer is no.

Here's a few reasons why.

1) All life on planet Earth conforms to the Schumann Resonance (a set of spectrum peaks in the extremely low frequency (ELF) portion of the Earth's electromagnetic field spectrum). Changes in the ELF can cause problems with biological life... whale beachings, mass bird deaths, etc. It would seem that life on Earth is biorhythmically tuned to the Earth's magnetic field. To live on other planets would require that planet's EMF to conform to this small range of frequencies. Dis-conformity could result in health issues: sleep problems, biological clock, etc.

2) Day length, atmospheric content, specific gravity, etc. Our biology is attuned to this planet and our chemistry depends on these cycles. With the already astronomically low probability of finding another planet that could sustain life, it narrows our choices down to only those planets which are "Earth-like," having similar size, day length, atmosphere, EMF resonance, etc... There may be many out there but the chance of us finding one close enough to visit is highly unlikely. We might even have to go as far as another galaxy to find the right Goldilocks planet that is just like Earth. It would take us 100,000 years traveling at light speed to cross from one side of the Milky Way to the other, so we can hardly expect to find another Earth-like planet any time soon. If we're lucky, then maybe we find one after about a million years of searching, and that aint none too practical!

3) Our females reproduction rhythms are influenced by the Moon's gravity... tidal forces which regulates the 28 day menstrual cycle. Without our Moon these cycles might lose rhythm and go 'out of whack,' so to speak. It could result in serious health problems for women, and who knows what effect it could have, long-term, for reproduction. If nothing else, it may be likely to reduce the rate of reliability reproduction, which could really slow the progress of a growing space colony. If it turns out we can't reproduce at all away from Earth, well... that's that then, I guess.

4) Speed of light limitation. Until and IF we can crack that nut, then maybe... but as it is there would seem no way to get from here to there in anything even remotely resembling a reasonable amount of time. Even if we're patient and send a rocket ship full of colonists, knowing we won't hear from them for 500 or so years, a lot can happen in that time. Could we really expect our colonists would remain loyal after so long? Would some evolution take place in that short time, splitting us into separate species? What could we hope to maintain in common with people we haven't seen in half a millennium?

Depending on how readily we can adapt to a drastically new environment, then maybe it's possible we could live on other planets. I doubt that we could without the aid of drugs or genetic engineering to adapt us to the new planet, and even so, we might possibly produce an entirely new species in the process... one acclimated to THAT planet alone. So if we colonize the galaxy, we probably won't be able to maintain our current Human form. We will have to artificially evolve to suit the new environments. And I don't think "Terra-forming" is anything other than a science fiction pipe dream.

The good news is we don't have to live on other planets and don't really have to worry about running out of resources. All the stuff we'll ever need (and then some) can be found in the many asteroids right here in our solar system; water, mineral resources, etc. So all we need to do is travel within our own solar system and mine those resources. Of course, we still have a finite amount of land area on good 'ole Earth, so we'll have to maintain a population limit if we're going to make the long haul.

What do you guys think?
Where am I right?
Where am I wrong, and did I leave anything out?

Or if I'm just completely crazy then just say, "There goes that silly Blind Swordsman again... slashing at shadows again!"  :P
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Post by: GurrenLagann on March 05, 2013, 01:59:15 AM
Yes. I belive Carl Sagan's "glorious dawn" indeed awaits us.


However, I have a couple of bones to pick with some of your asserted issues. Namely, the effect of the Moon's gravity on our bodies very negligible. IIRC, Neil Tyson said it amounts to something like a trillion times weaker the force exterted on your head by your pillow. Unless you mean it's the tidal forces that affect female reproductive systems? If so, I've no knowledge on that tidbit. :P

I don't think 500 years would be enough to to diverge an entirely knew species. If we have found a way to circumvent FTL travel (say, by contracting and expanding space itself), we'll have already reached a technological point to where environments themselves are of practically NO concern in regards to our survival. And that notwithstanding, 500 years might not be enough time for those humans to have become genetically different enough to prevent reproduction with them... ;D
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Post by: Plu on March 05, 2013, 02:25:01 AM
I don't think anyone 30 years ago could have predicted what today looks like. I don't feel comfortable making predictions about what is and is not possible, but considering the track record of science so far I'd say there's a good chance we'll figure something out in the end.

They said the same things about flight once, and the moon next, and we've already reached Mars and are preparing to send the first colonists... so yeah.
Title: Re: Can We Ever Colonize Space?
Post by: Jason78 on March 05, 2013, 04:49:15 AM
Quote from: "Zatoichi"Can We Ever Colonize Space?

Yes, easily.

There's been a constant human presence in space for quite some time now.  All of your little worries can easily be addressed with a little trip through Google.
Title: Re: Can We Ever Colonize Space?
Post by: moog on March 05, 2013, 08:35:40 AM
I see a few problems here.

Quote from: "Zatoichi"1) All life on planet Earth conforms to the Schumann Resonance ....

This is false.

Quote from: "Zatoichi"3) Our females reproduction rhythms are influenced by the Moon's gravity... tidal forces which regulates the 28 day menstrual cycle.

As is this.

Quote from: "Zatoichi"4) Speed of light limitation. Until and IF we can crack that nut, then maybe... but as it is there would seem no way to get from here to there in anything even remotely resembling a reasonable amount of time. Even if we're patient and send a rocket ship full of colonists, knowing we won't hear from them for 500 or so years, a lot can happen in that time. Could we really expect our colonists would remain loyal after so long? Would some evolution take place in that short time, splitting us into separate species? What could we hope to maintain in common with people we haven't seen in half a millennium?

This is a problem, there have been a few good studies on the problems of interstellar travel (see "Prospects for Interstellar Travel" J. Mauldin.
From an evolutionary perspective 500 years is nothing though.
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Post by: stromboli on March 05, 2013, 09:12:20 AM
The present space station is a bad example. Without support from earth it would not exist. To build a self sustaining environment is probably possible, but the fact is efforts at building totally self sufficient systems have not been very successful. The asteroid belt is a possibility, since it could provide both places on which to base a structure and raw materials for building it. But frankly I think we are a long way from any such capabilities now.
You would essentially have to build an entire ecosphere from scratch and be able to produce viable food crops or sources, waste systems, energy systems and so on. Tough job.
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Post by: Farroc on March 05, 2013, 10:27:35 AM
I'm going to have to disagree. I think it's not only possible, but inevitable. All of the environmental problems(Weight loss, radiation...etc) will no doubt be solved in the future. And as for speed limitations, I'm sure that in future we will find some way to get around that pesky "Speed of light" thing! :) I mean, c'mon, it's the future!
Title: Re: Can We Ever Colonize Space?
Post by: BarkAtTheMoon on March 05, 2013, 10:27:43 AM
I think all but your fourth has been shown to not be a major problem with current human presence in space. The vast distances involved will be a major impediment, even within our solar system much less interstellar travel. There's plenty of resources within a year or two flight using today's propulsion technology, though, ie. the moon, Mars, asteroid belt, maybe Venus though it's a pretty hostile environment, Jupiter & Saturn moons.

As stromboli mentioned, self-sustainability will be difficult, but I don't think anywhere near impossible to overcome. Most resources should be attainable out there, food will be the hard one since it needs to be grown, at least until we can come up with a decent artificial source like a meat vat or Star Trek replicator type machine that can assemble passable food at the molecular level.
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Post by: Plu on March 05, 2013, 10:36:00 AM
I'm not sure how much longer it'll take before we can mechanically build edible substances from carbon, hydrogen and some trace atoms. Vitamins and minerals are the toughest ones, but we only need a few of those. A few tablets a day can sustain us as far as vitamins go. The rest is just filler material that (I think?) has a pretty simple molecular structure.

Of course I'm only a laymen so I might be interpreting some things wrong.
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Post by: _Xenu_ on March 05, 2013, 11:01:36 AM
I dont the light barrier is necessarily a deal breaker if we can figure out how to put people in long term stasis. Doing so also takes away the need to bring much in the way of supplies, and can save enormously on energy because speed is no particular issue. In addition, lower speeds actually make space travel safer, as they reduce the impact of collision with space debris. On the other hand, I don't think a "generation ship," in which people live, breed, and die on the vessel, would be a particularly good idea.
Title: Re: Can We Ever Colonize Space?
Post by: Davka on March 05, 2013, 12:14:58 PM
Quote from: "Zatoichi"I think the answer is no.

Here's a few reasons why.

1) . . . Schumann Resonance . . .

Life adapts to environmental change. Not really a problem, although the period during which species were adapting might be kind of rocky.

Quote2) Day length, atmospheric content, specific gravity, etc.
Life adapts. See above.

Quote3) Our females reproduction rhythms are influenced by the Moon's gravity . . .
Not really.

Quote4) Speed of light limitation.
There are two possible answers to this problem: A generational ship, in which the great-grandchildren of the original settlers are the ones who actually reach their destination; Some sort of stasis or hibernation, which is theoretically possible.

The real problems with colonizing other planets are:

1) Our biosphere is not simply plants growing in dirt. The soil is inhabited by a complex of microscopic life-forms, all of which work together to create fertile soil. Without Earth microbes to break down Earth plants, those plants will not turn into Earth dirt, which provides nutrients for more Earth plants. We would need to either find a completely sterile yet habitable planet, or sterilize the soil of our destination planet. Both options create some serious logistical problems.

2) Stars (like the Sun) emit hard radiation which will kill all life if it's not shielded. Any candidate for colonization will need to have an iron core like Earth's in order to generate Van Allen belts to shield the planet from stellar radiation. This is why colonies on Mars or the Moon would need to be underground.

On the upside, we have this very handy Moon orbiting Earth, and we can experiment with creating habitable bio-domes underground on the Moon. Once we work out the kinks in that system, we can move on to Mars, learning as we go. By the time we're ready to attempt interstellar colonization (a few centuries away, at least), we will have overcome the significant obstacles to colonization.
Title: Re: Can We Ever Colonize Space?
Post by: GurrenLagann on March 05, 2013, 05:19:37 PM
^ Excellent post Davka. :-)

However, @Xenu I've a slight bone to pick; one thing isn't totally correct. Yes, slower speeds in space would be safer.... if in a collision scenario both parties are moving slow and aren't massive in size. Otherwise we still get splattered across an asteroid. <("o.o)>
Title: Re: Can We Ever Colonize Space?
Post by: _Xenu_ on March 05, 2013, 05:33:26 PM
Quote from: "GurrenLagann"^ Excellent post Davka. :-)

However, @Xenu I've a slight bone to pick; one thing isn't totally correct. Yes, slower speeds in space would be safer.... if in a collision scenario both parties are moving slow and aren't massive in size. Otherwise we still get splattered across an asteroid. <("o.o)>
Well, I did assume the other object was stationary and fairly small, but the computer may be able to steer around larger ones, which is less of a problem re: fuel at lower speeds. This whole long distance space travel thing becomes much simpler if you're in stasis and it doesn't matter how long it takes. Theres no reason we can't colonize the galaxy at sublight speeds, it will just much, much longer.
Title: Re: Can We Ever Colonize Space?
Post by: Davka on March 05, 2013, 06:19:28 PM
Quote from: "_Xenu_"
Quote from: "GurrenLagann"^ Excellent post Davka. :-)

However, @Xenu I've a slight bone to pick; one thing isn't totally correct. Yes, slower speeds in space would be safer.... if in a collision scenario both parties are moving slow and aren't massive in size. Otherwise we still get splattered across an asteroid. <("o.o)>
Well, I did assume the other object was stationary and fairly small, but the computer may be able to steer around larger ones, which is less of a problem re: fuel at lower speeds. This whole long distance space travel thing becomes much simpler if you're in stasis and it doesn't matter how long it takes. Theres no reason we can't colonize the galaxy at sublight speeds, it will just much, much longer.
Detecting large bodies in interstellar space would be a serious pain in the ass. They would be so far from any light-source that they would reflect almost no light, and block almost no light. Reflection and eclipse are the two methods we use to detect extra-Solar planets, so I'm not sure how we would be able to detect any large body in deep space. All the space sci-fi shows that depict planets and asteroids in deep space which are magically visible are completely wrong. The Enterprise would not be able to put a deep-space asteroid on-screen, because the asteroid would be as black as the rest of space.

What might work is radar, but it would require constant energy output in pinging the path ahead and reading the reflections. And it might even restrict the possible speed of the craft, since you wouldn't want to approach the speed of light, because that would render the radar useless.

IMO, either we figure out how to fold space-time, or we stay inside the Solar system. Unless we can freeze people for a couple of centuries and thaw them out when they get where they're going, that is.
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Post by: _Xenu_ on March 05, 2013, 06:25:20 PM
I was actually wondering about Radar. It does rely on echolocation and there's so sound in space. Im not sure either way, but I know at the very least the ship would be restricted to the speed of sound. As an alternative, lasers could possibly be used to illuminate objects on a collision course by making them visible combined with AI to interpret the results. Now, I wouldn't recommend firing them constantly because that would drain too much energy over time. Wouldn't constantly ping radar for the same reason. Im not saying this would be risk free, just more practical than any other method I'm aware of. And yes, I am talking about freezing people. We could always pick them up later if we develop some sort of functional warp drive, but I'm trying to think about what could be practical within a few centuries. We have at least some of the technology now.
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Post by: Davka on March 05, 2013, 06:49:10 PM
Radar relies on bouncing radio waves off of objects. Radio waves will travel through vacuum. It's only an "echo" in the sense that a wave is bouncing back off of something.

Lasers are too narrow to be of much use, unfortunately. But they might be useful for determining the exact nature of an object after it's detected by radar.
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Post by: _Xenu_ on March 05, 2013, 06:54:04 PM
Stupid me, I thought radio waves were slower than light for some reason. Yes, use radar, but only intermittently to save energy. Still, this overall setup sounds more practical than anything else I've heard of, and might be doable within centuries.
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Post by: Davka on March 05, 2013, 07:36:37 PM
You do realize that as soon as they learn to freeze and thaw people, they'll be stacking us on airplanes like cord-wood?   :shock:
Title: Re:
Post by: Hydra009 on March 05, 2013, 07:40:22 PM
Quote from: "Davka"You do realize that as soon as they learn to freeze and thaw people, they'll be stacking us on airplanes like cord-wood?   :shock:
Only if they do the babies and loud talkers first.   :)
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Post by: _Xenu_ on March 05, 2013, 07:49:57 PM
Well, it beats those dinky seats...
Title: Re: Can We Ever Colonize Space?
Post by: FrankDK on March 05, 2013, 09:14:05 PM
>  Theres no reason we can't colonize the galaxy at sublight speeds, it will just much, much longer.

If that were the case, assuming there are other civilizations in the galaxy, and some are billions of years older than humanity, where are they?  Why haven't they colonized the earth yet?

See Fermi Paradox.

Frank
Title: Re: Can We Ever Colonize Space?
Post by: moog on March 05, 2013, 09:15:25 PM
Quote from: "Davka"Detecting large bodies in interstellar space would be a serious pain in the ass. They would be so far from any light-source that they would reflect almost no light, and block almost no light. Reflection and eclipse are the two methods we use to detect extra-Solar planets, so I'm not sure how we would be able to detect any large body in deep space. All the space sci-fi shows that depict planets and asteroids in deep space which are magically visible are completely wrong. The Enterprise would not be able to put a deep-space asteroid on-screen, because the asteroid would be as black as the rest of space.

What might work is radar, but it would require constant energy output in pinging the path ahead and reading the reflections. And it might even restrict the possible speed of the craft, since you wouldn't want to approach the speed of light, because that would render the radar useless.
....

I'm not sure this would be a big problem, space is big. Very big.
And the chances of hitting anything in interstellar space larger than an atom would be vanishingly small.
Title: Re: Can We Ever Colonize Space?
Post by: _Xenu_ on March 05, 2013, 09:26:28 PM
Quote from: "FrankDK">  Theres no reason we can't colonize the galaxy at sublight speeds, it will just much, much longer.

If that were the case, assuming there are other civilizations in the galaxy, and some are billions of years older than humanity, where are they?  Why haven't they colonized the earth yet?

See Fermi Paradox.

Frank
Can't say for sure, but theres quite a few possibilities. In any case, we're talking more about how to colonize the galaxy ourselves than alien civilizations. If we ever meet any, its likely to be in the very distant future.
Title: Re: Can We Ever Colonize Space?
Post by: Hydra009 on March 05, 2013, 10:22:28 PM
Quote from: "FrankDK"If that were the case, assuming there are other civilizations in the galaxy, and some are billions of years older than humanity, where are they?
(//http://i.space.com/images/i/000/016/025/iFF/infrared-galaxies-vista-survey-telescope.jpg?1332275901)
There, there, there, and you can barely see it, but over there, too.  Probably.

QuoteWhy haven't they colonized the earth yet?
Same reason.
Title: Re: Can We Ever Colonize Space?
Post by: GurrenLagann on March 06, 2013, 11:14:34 AM
Actually, using radar at sub-luminal speeds would be perfect. You wouldn't have to be constantly pinging stuff. You would only have to do it every so often. Since basically any oving object in space is going to be moving fantastically slower than light speed, it would be VERY easy for even the technology we presently have to predict with great accuracy where the moving object will be in the future, relative to us. So, sending out radio waves (which can penetrate through pesky dust clouds) all around us might work well. Or not. ;)
Title: Re: Can We Ever Colonize Space?
Post by: FrankDK on March 06, 2013, 12:26:25 PM
> If we ever meet any, its likely to be in the very distant future.

That's the point.  This is the very distant future for many civilizations.  The universe was already 9 billion years old when the earth formed, so there must be other civilizations that have a several-billion year head start on us.  If civilizations can colonize the galaxy, then someone should have gotten here by now.

Simply moving to another location as the sun ages is a different matter.  Colonizing one planet is different from colonizing the galaxy.

Frank
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Post by: Plu on March 06, 2013, 01:08:19 PM
QuoteIf civilizations can colonize the galaxy, then someone should have gotten here by now.

Who says they can or want to colonize all of it? The place is vast beyond belief, there's no reason to think that they'd be trying to control all of it. We're just an insignificant speck of dust floating about amongst trillions of other planets. There's no reason why any race of galactic beings would be coming specifically to this little corner of the galaxy.
Title: Re: Can We Ever Colonize Space?
Post by: Thumpalumpacus on March 06, 2013, 01:26:28 PM
Quote from: "Davka"What might work is radar, but it would require constant energy output in pinging the path ahead and reading the reflections. And it might even restrict the possible speed of the craft, since you wouldn't want to approach the speed of light, because that would render the radar useless.

I would imagine that gravity sensors would be much more reliable, and perhaps be managed passively, reducing the energy demands on a ship's propulsion.
Title: Re: Can We Ever Colonize Space?
Post by: VaasMontenegro on March 06, 2013, 04:57:07 PM
You'd be mistaken to think that we wont colonize space. The human race has adapted to every situation that has arisen and it will continue to do so.

It is also imperative that we colonize space if we are to thrive as a species in the long term.
Title: Re: Can We Ever Colonize Space?
Post by: Nonsensei on March 06, 2013, 05:23:45 PM
Quote from: "VaasMontenegro"You'd be mistaken to think that we wont colonize space. The human race has adapted to every situation that has arisen and it will continue to do so.

It is also imperative that we colonize space if we are to thrive as a species in the long term.


Technically it isn't though. We have two avenues: Expand into space or learn how to manage our existence on this planet. Frankly the latter is the harder one but if we can manage it we have quite a while until the sun burns out and perhaps by then we will have somehow found a solution to that problem as well.

To me expanding into space isnt about that we HAVE to its that theres no reason not to.
Title: Re: Can We Ever Colonize Space?
Post by: Davka on March 06, 2013, 05:43:46 PM
Quote from: "VaasMontenegro"You'd be mistaken to think that we wont colonize space. The human race has adapted to every situation that has arisen and it will continue to do so.

We're only 80,000 years old, it's pretty difficult to extrapolate from such a short time. The dinosaurs ruled the Earth for over 160 million years, and during that time it could be said that they had adapted to every situation that had arisen - until they didn't.

QuoteIt is also imperative that we colonize space if we are to thrive as a species in the long term.
Not really. We'll probably colonize the Solar System, but even that's not imperative.

It all depends on what you call the "long term."

(//http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/77/Geologic_Clock_with_events_and_periods.svg/625px-Geologic_Clock_with_events_and_periods.svg.png)

If the "long term" is a mere tens of millions of years, we don't really need to go anywhere. There's a huge nuclear fusion reactor up in the sky that is scheduled to continue providing power for another 4 billion years before it destroys our planet, so we have a while to figure out how to survive that catastrophe. Of course, in another 1 googol years (10[sup:yd0epakm]100[/sup:yd0epakm] years), we may be faced with the heat death of the Universe (//http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_death_of_the_universe), which is slightly more difficult to overcome than the mere destruction of the Earth. So, in the loooooooong long term, it won't really matter what we do.  :-D
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Post by: _Xenu_ on March 06, 2013, 05:57:51 PM
You seem to discount the idea of humans destroying this planet. I seriously doubt that will take four billion years. In regards to the heat death of the universe, we may know how to colonize other universes before that happens. Worry about one step at a time, that one's way too far to worry about yet.
Title: Re: Can We Ever Colonize Space?
Post by: PopeyesPappy on March 06, 2013, 05:58:58 PM
Quote from: "Davka"If the "long term" is a mere tens of millions of years, we don't really need to go anywhere. There's a huge nuclear fusion reactor up in the sky that is scheduled to continue providing power for another 4 billion years before it destroys our planet, so we have a while to figure out how to survive that catastrophe. Of course, in another 1 googol years (10[sup:2j9eugfh]100[/sup:2j9eugfh] years), we may be faced with the heat death of the Universe (//http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_death_of_the_universe), which is slightly more difficult to overcome than the mere destruction of the Earth. So, in the loooooooong long term, it won't really matter what we do.  :-D

The sun is going to be an issue long before it reaches its red giant phase. Estimates are that sometime within the next billion years or so the sun's luminosity will have increased by 10%. At that point all surface water will probably evaporate and anything other than microscopic life will probably die out. Another half a billion years beyond that even that will be gone.
Title: Re: Can We Ever Colonize Space?
Post by: moog on March 06, 2013, 06:10:09 PM
Quote from: "PopeyesPappy"...

The sun is going to be an issue long before it reaches its red giant phase. Estimates are that sometime within the next billion years or so the sun's luminosity will have increased by 10%. At that point all surface water will probably evaporate and anything other than microscopic life will probably die out. Another half a billion years beyond that even that will be gone.

I suggest we move the Earth to a larger orbit... shouldn't be hard.
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Post by: Plu on March 06, 2013, 06:12:12 PM
Shouldn't be hard, it's only 5.97219 × 10^24kg of matter you're displacing :P
Title: Re: Can We Ever Colonize Space?
Post by: stromboli on March 06, 2013, 09:22:30 PM
Quote from: "moog"
Quote from: "PopeyesPappy"...

The sun is going to be an issue long before it reaches its red giant phase. Estimates are that sometime within the next billion years or so the sun's luminosity will have increased by 10%. At that point all surface water will probably evaporate and anything other than microscopic life will probably die out. Another half a billion years beyond that even that will be gone.

I suggest we move the Earth to a larger orbit... shouldn't be hard.

How about Ringworld? Seriously, one concept that has been used for a few sci fi novels is the creation of a tethered space elevator at the equator that allows physical movement up and down on something like a carbon filament cable. Based on the advances in linked carbon molecules, that capability may arrive fairly soon.

the problem I see is that before we ever become sufficiently motivated to do off-planet colonization, something dramatic needs to happen- like a comet smacking Mars, for example. Space stations in the asteroid belt for mining purposes has certainly been explored in literature. And there are companies actively looking into it now.
http://news.discovery.com/space/asteroi ... 130204.htm (http://news.discovery.com/space/asteroids-meteors-meteorites/could-asteroid-mining-drive-21st-century-space-industry-130204.htm)
Title: Re: Can We Ever Colonize Space?
Post by: Davka on March 06, 2013, 11:10:22 PM
Quote from: "PopeyesPappy"
Quote from: "Davka"If the "long term" is a mere tens of millions of years, we don't really need to go anywhere. There's a huge nuclear fusion reactor up in the sky that is scheduled to continue providing power for another 4 billion years before it destroys our planet, so we have a while to figure out how to survive that catastrophe. Of course, in another 1 googol years (10[sup:20fm3bdu]100[/sup:20fm3bdu] years), we may be faced with the heat death of the Universe (//http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_death_of_the_universe), which is slightly more difficult to overcome than the mere destruction of the Earth. So, in the loooooooong long term, it won't really matter what we do.  :-D

The sun is going to be an issue long before it reaches its red giant phase. Estimates are that sometime within the next billion years or so the sun's luminosity will have increased by 10%. At that point all surface water will probably evaporate and anything other than microscopic life will probably die out. Another half a billion years beyond that even that will be gone.
Well, fuck - we'd better hurry up then!
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Post by: SilentFutility on March 07, 2013, 04:31:17 AM
As for the food problem, there have recently been groundbreaking advances in 3D printing technology that allows people to print meat using stem cells. This technology is in its infancy, so I have no doubt that synthetic food will become a viable food source in the future.

If stem cells can be isolated and used to grow human and animal tissue, who is to say that in the future synthetic plants won't be possible?

As for the OP's issues with biological rhythms etc. It might not be beneficial to health, but also not lethal. If someone's sleep cycle is severely disrupted, they don't die, likewise people in the space station don't die due to being displaced in the earth's magnetic field etc.
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Post by: NitzWalsh on March 07, 2013, 04:44:54 AM
What about technology to control or even reverse the aging process of a star? People talk about Terraforming other planets, why not go as far as controlling a star?

There's a Star Trek: The Next Generation episode called Half a Life which deals with something like this.
Title: Re:
Post by: Davka on March 07, 2013, 09:46:22 AM
Quote from: "NitzWalsh"What about technology to control or even reverse the aging process of a star? People talk about Terraforming other planets, why not go as far as controlling a star?

There's a Star Trek: The Next Generation episode called Half a Life which deals with something like this.
If this is even possible, it's millenia away. Even terraforming is well beyond our current abilities, and may not be possible.

Exploring the Solar System, and eventually the Galaxy, is a good idea. But we'd better work hard at solving the problems we have right here on Earth, or we won't be around long enough to go anywhere.
Title: Re: Can We Ever Colonize Space?
Post by: FrankDK on March 07, 2013, 10:28:38 AM
> Who says they can or want to colonize all of it? The place is vast beyond belief, there's no reason to think that they'd be trying to control all of it.

Then they're not colonizing the galaxy, just a small part of it.  It may be possible and practical to move to one or two other planets as suns age, but the distances involved and the energy required actually colonize the galaxy would be prohibitive.

> We're just an insignificant speck of dust floating about amongst trillions of other planets. There's no reason why any race of galactic beings would be coming specifically to this little corner of the galaxy.

We are in the process of discovering other earth-like worlds.  A race a million years ahead of us in technology (the blink of an eye in galaxy age) would certainly be able to do this.  The earth is very well suited for life as we know it.  Alien races would certainly discover the earth, and it would most likely be on the itinerary of any travelers from the galactic neighbor hood.

Silicon-based life might prefer Mercury; sulfur-based might like Venus.  Hard to tell with no examples.  But earth is definitely the place for carbon-based life.  So I suspect that we'd be visited if someone were looking to move.

Frank
Title:
Post by: _Xenu_ on March 07, 2013, 10:50:23 AM
Chinese physicists measure speed of Einstein's 'spooky action at a distance': At least 10,000 times faster than light

http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/1502 ... than-light (http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/150207-chinese-physicists-measure-speed-of-einsteins-spooky-action-at-a-distance-at-least-10000-times-faster-than-light)

Could this make teleportation of some kind a possibility? Maybe a sort of alternative to warp engines?
Title:
Post by: Plu on March 07, 2013, 10:58:10 AM
Fascinating. Trillions of meters per second... and that's the lower bound.
Title: Re:
Post by: FrankDK on March 07, 2013, 11:00:04 AM
Quote from: "_Xenu_"Chinese physicists measure speed of Einstein's 'spooky action at a distance': At least 10,000 times faster than light

http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/1502 ... than-light (http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/150207-chinese-physicists-measure-speed-of-einsteins-spooky-action-at-a-distance-at-least-10000-times-faster-than-light)

Could this make teleportation of some kind a possibility? Maybe a sort of alternative to warp engines?

It wouldn't seem to.  There is no communication possible using the property of spooky action at a distance.  You can tell what a specific particle is doing far away, but that doesn't move objects or information.  It could be used to generate a code for encryption, but that is the only application currently realistic.

Frank
Title:
Post by: Plu on March 07, 2013, 11:20:06 AM
I'm pretty sure a particle moving somewhere far away is information. You just need to use that motion to represent something meaningful.
Title: Re: Can We Ever Colonize Space?
Post by: FrankDK on March 07, 2013, 12:19:09 PM
> I'm pretty sure a particle moving somewhere far away is information.

No, that's not correct.  Information is the result of something being out of order, being different from random.  When two particles are entangled, it only means that when one of them has one quantum state, the other particle has the opposite quantum state.  There is no information that can be transmitted due to this phenomenon.

> You just need to use that motion to represent something meaningful.

If you can't control the motion, then you can't make it represent anything, useful or otherwise.  For example, assume two entangled particles, one on Mars, the other on Earth.  The quantum states of the two particles are measured at the same times.  The experimenters before hand agree on a map from the measurement to a binary space.  One gets 0 1 1 0 0 1 1 1, and the other gets 1 0 0 1 1 0 0 0.  You can't represent any information with this.  You had no control over how the 1s and 0s came up.  They would just be random series' of 1s and 0s.

However, knowing that one end always gets the complement of what the other gets (i.e., zeros and ones switched), you could use this to produce an unbreakable code.  Each day, at a specified time and specified time intervals, the two parties measure the quantum states and map the outcomes to ones and zeros.  By previous agreement, one inverts the digital series.  They now have two identical but totally random sequences of ones and zeros to which no one else in the universe has access.  They can encrypt messages using this as the key, and no one can break the code.  The ciphered text would be sent by conventional means.

But you still can't use the entanglement to send information faster than the speed of light.

Frank
Title: Re: Can We Ever Colonize Space?
Post by: GurrenLagann on March 07, 2013, 12:46:04 PM
Quantum entanglement cannot be used to send any usable information, so it won't work for that. And I could've sworn that studies had continuously show it to be basically instantaneous, not measurable. Eh, if it is, cool. :)
Title: Re: Can We Ever Colonize Space?
Post by: AllPurposeAtheist on March 07, 2013, 02:52:13 PM
As to colonizing space... The colonial powers gave that stuff up some time ago and unless there is some indiginous (sp) population 'out there' we don't know about who are we going to enslave to mine the gold, silver or whatever they find?
Ooops.. I forgot foodstamp recipients..  nevermind.
Title: Re: Can We Ever Colonize Space?
Post by: Youssuf Ramadan on March 07, 2013, 04:14:48 PM
I think we could, but I don't think we will.  For a start, who's paying?  It will need a massive paradigm shift before someone will be willing to stump up sufficient cash for something with no comeback in their lifetime.   And it won't be cheap.  Who knows, it may take a disaster to force the issue....  :shock:
Title: Re: Can We Ever Colonize Space?
Post by: _Xenu_ on March 07, 2013, 05:03:15 PM
Quote from: "Youssuf Ramadan"I think we could, but I don't think we will.  For a start, who's paying?  It will need a massive paradigm shift before someone will be willing to stump up sufficient cash for something with no comeback in their lifetime.   And it won't be cheap.  Who knows, it may take a disaster to force the issue....  :shock:
If you can put people in stasis and travel and sub-light speeds, I think this starts to become much less cost prohibitive. Hopefully within a few billion dollars once the technology is mature, easily within the reach of many governments. Remember, once you know how to do something like this, energy is the greatest problem by far.
Title: Re: Can We Ever Colonize Space?
Post by: AllPurposeAtheist on March 07, 2013, 05:58:38 PM
Stasis? Sub light speeds?
Gentlemen, we have the technology and now we just need a gazillion dollars..
It's not happening kids...trust me on this..at least not in our lifetimes unless..AREA 51 :shock:
Title: Re: Can We Ever Colonize Space?
Post by: GurrenLagann on March 07, 2013, 06:09:35 PM
I don't think we currently have developed enough stasis technology for that to work. Unless someone has a link to something showing we do? Gimme?
Title: Re: Can We Ever Colonize Space?
Post by: _Xenu_ on March 07, 2013, 06:14:24 PM
Quote from: "GurrenLagann"I don't think we currently have developed enough stasis technology for that to work. Unless someone has a link to something showing we do? Gimme?
No.
Title: Re:
Post by: Zatoichi on March 07, 2013, 07:37:33 PM
[spoil:jm26fm7f]
Quote from: "GurrenLagann"Yes. I belive Carl Sagan's "glorious dawn" indeed awaits us.


However, I have a couple of bones to pick with some of your asserted issues. Namely, the effect of the Moon's gravity on our bodies very negligible. IIRC, Neil Tyson said it amounts to something like a trillion times weaker the force exterted on your head by your pillow. Unless you mean it's the tidal forces that affect female reproductive systems? If so, I've no knowledge on that tidbit. :P

I don't think 500 years would be enough to to diverge an entirely knew species. If we have found a way to circumvent FTL travel (say, by contracting and expanding space itself), we'll have already reached a technological point to where environments themselves are of practically NO concern in regards to our survival. And that notwithstanding, 500 years might not be enough time for those humans to have become genetically different enough to prevent reproduction with them... ;D
[/spoil:jm26fm7f]

I was referring to reproduction with the Moon thing. I think what Tyson was addressing was Astrology.

And as far as our diverging in 500 years, I probably should have worded it better... yes, too short for species change but the question is, after that many years, would those people still relate to people on Earth? Would they decide, "Hey, we're the ones who've been out here for 500 years making the sacrifices and doing all the work. Why are we still taking orders from 'Earth Men?' You know... that kind of thing.
Title: Re: Can We Ever Colonize Space?
Post by: Zatoichi on March 07, 2013, 07:48:16 PM
Quote from: "Youssuf Ramadan"I think we could, but I don't think we will.  For a start, who's paying?  It will need a massive paradigm shift before someone will be willing to stump up sufficient cash for something with no comeback in their lifetime.   And it won't be cheap.  Who knows, it may take a disaster to force the issue....  :shock:

I think if we could get to the vast resources int he asteroid belt, there would be plenty of material wealth to finance anything we would ever want to do.
Title:
Post by: Zatoichi on March 07, 2013, 07:58:43 PM
Wow guys!

Been away for a few days and wasn't expecting this topic to generate so much good stuff!

You've guys have answered most of my concerns quite well. I suppose the biorhythm stuff maybe isn't such a big deal.

But we still have to find those needles in the haystack. But since we have a few billion years before our Sun burns out, I suppose that's plenty of time to get lucky.

If this is ever to be done I think it will have to start with a massive unmanned probe campaign... we'll have to send out literally millions of them to survey for habitable worlds. It might be tough maintaining interest in such a program after the first thousand years and several million probes turn up nada.

Someone mentioned "Ringworld" ... so something like a Dyson Sphere. I suppose in that case, we don't really need a suitable planet, only a suitable star.

Interesting stuff you guys. Thanks for your thoughts on this.
Title: Re: Can We Ever Colonize Space?
Post by: AllPurposeAtheist on March 07, 2013, 08:12:46 PM
Quote from: "GurrenLagann"I don't think we currently have developed enough stasis technology for that to work. Unless someone has a link to something showing we do? Gimme?
Here you go with 'link or it hasn't happened yet' again.. ;)

I think before we get there the cattle we feed animal parts will have evolved into gigantic hooved carnivores with massive forward pointing horns and the typical cowboy will need apache attack helicopters and abrahms tanks just to herd them. :shock:
Title:
Post by: antediluvian on March 07, 2013, 08:20:50 PM
Even if we can, let's not.
Title: Re:
Post by: AllPurposeAtheist on March 07, 2013, 08:26:39 PM
Quote from: "antediluvian"Even if we can, let's not.
How about I make you a tin foil hat music box? :P
Title: Re:
Post by: Colanth on March 07, 2013, 08:27:11 PM
Quote from: "SilentFutility"As for the food problem, there have recently been groundbreaking advances in 3D printing technology that allows people to print meat using stem cells. This technology is in its infancy, so I have no doubt that synthetic food will become a viable food source in the future.
That would be like a desk jet printer creating ink.  3D printing doesn't create meat, it prints meat cells into the form we want them.  We have to have the meat to begin with.

We could just grow gigantic vats of algae - not everyone would like the resulting product, but when you have a choice of starving or eating something less palatable than prime rib, most people opt to not starve.
Title: Re: Re:
Post by: bennyboy on March 07, 2013, 08:59:48 PM
Quote from: "Colanth"
Quote from: "SilentFutility"As for the food problem, there have recently been groundbreaking advances in 3D printing technology that allows people to print meat using stem cells. This technology is in its infancy, so I have no doubt that synthetic food will become a viable food source in the future.
That would be like a desk jet printer creating ink.  3D printing doesn't create meat, it prints meat cells into the form we want them.  We have to have the meat to begin with.

We could just grow gigantic vats of algae - not everyone would like the resulting product, but when you have a choice of starving or eating something less palatable than prime rib, most people opt to not starve.
Algae + Soylent Green = Humanity wins!
Title: Re: Re:
Post by: antediluvian on March 07, 2013, 09:04:20 PM
Quote from: "AllPurposeAtheist"
Quote from: "antediluvian"Even if we can, let's not.
How about I make you a tin foil hat music box? :P
Oh, APA, you sweet-talker you.
Title: Re: Can We Ever Colonize Space?
Post by: VaasMontenegro on March 08, 2013, 07:46:22 PM
Quote from: "Youssuf Ramadan"I think we could, but I don't think we will.  For a start, who's paying?  It will need a massive paradigm shift before someone will be willing to stump up sufficient cash for something with no comeback in their lifetime.   And it won't be cheap.  Who knows, it may take a disaster to force the issue....  :shock:

Private companies are already showing that they are more than willing to pay for trips into space. Space X are ferrying supplies to the ISS for NASA and the Russian Space Agency, another company has already set a date for the first commercial flights to the Moon in 2020, another company is planning the first manned fly-by of Mars and The Mars-One project, which will send the first - permanently settling- manned mission to mars in 2023, is run by a private company.

The future of space travel will have nothing to do with the governments, and NASA will be the minority party when it comes to space travel.
Title: Re: Can We Ever Colonize Space?
Post by: VaasMontenegro on March 08, 2013, 07:59:02 PM
Quote from: "Nonsensei"
Quote from: "VaasMontenegro"You'd be mistaken to think that we wont colonize space. The human race has adapted to every situation that has arisen and it will continue to do so.

It is also imperative that we colonize space if we are to thrive as a species in the long term.


Technically it isn't though. We have two avenues: Expand into space or learn how to manage our existence on this planet. Frankly the latter is the harder one but if we can manage it we have quite a while until the sun burns out and perhaps by then we will have somehow found a solution to that problem as well.

To me expanding into space isn't about that we HAVE to its that theres no reason not to.


There are plenty of reasons, firstly the imperatives - to secure our future as a species and to ensure that there will be no single event that could wipe out the human race. It has been 65 Million years since the last major impact on Earth - we're due another pretty soon.

Secondly, Exploration. Humans have an unquenchable thirst for knowledge and we will forever attempting to further our knowledge of the universe - this is something that cant be done from Earth by using telescopes or just sending out satellites to do the exploring for us.

I get the impression that the reason most people reject the idea of the Human race exploring outer space and colonizing other planets, is that they think all of these ideas come from Science fiction movies and that they are not realistic, (either that or they are hardcore religious nuts who think space is just an illusion created by the devil), but the fact is - these goals are well within our reach and anyone would be a fool to simply dismiss them.
Title: Re:
Post by: mnmelt on March 08, 2013, 08:02:25 PM
Quote from: "antediluvian"Even if we can, let's not.

Really... Just another planet we'll fuck up... =;  =;
Title: Re: Can We Ever Colonize Space?
Post by: VaasMontenegro on March 08, 2013, 08:08:23 PM
Quote from: "FrankDK"> If we ever meet any, its likely to be in the very distant future.

That's the point.  This is the very distant future for many civilizations.  The universe was already 9 billion years old when the earth formed, so there must be other civilizations that have a several-billion year head start on us.  If civilizations can colonize the galaxy, then someone should have gotten here by now.

Simply moving to another location as the sun ages is a different matter.  Colonizing one planet is different from colonizing the galaxy.

Frank


The thing is I'm not sure they would see this corner of the galaxy as very attractive. There is only 1 planet in our solar system that is capable of sustaining complex life, whereas there are likely entire solar systems out there that have luscious, large planets that can easily support life that would be far more attractive to an advanced civilization. There are far many more factors as to why we haven't formally met another civilization, and who's to say that contact hasn't already been made.....

Not to stir up a conspiracy, but if contact was/has been made made, the public would/will be the last to know about it, considering the mass hysteria would cause.
Title: Re: Can We Ever Colonize Space?
Post by: GurrenLagann on March 08, 2013, 09:27:23 PM
Whoever said private companies are the future of space travel is much mistaken in my view. It will never be possible for a privately operated company to do what a government is able to do fiscally and technologically, given the higher money and pool of talent they can enlist. Not that I don't support those endeavors, but let's be (a bit) realistic about that.
Title: Re: Re:
Post by: SilentFutility on March 09, 2013, 04:01:26 AM
Quote from: "Colanth"
Quote from: "SilentFutility"As for the food problem, there have recently been groundbreaking advances in 3D printing technology that allows people to print meat using stem cells. This technology is in its infancy, so I have no doubt that synthetic food will become a viable food source in the future.
That would be like a desk jet printer creating ink.  3D printing doesn't create meat, it prints meat cells into the form we want them.  We have to have the meat to begin with.

We could just grow gigantic vats of algae - not everyone would like the resulting product, but when you have a choice of starving or eating something less palatable than prime rib, most people opt to not starve.

I know, but as I said, the technology is still in its infancy. If the ability to synthesise stem cells were to be developed, for example, then they could be printed or assembled into meat and plant-matter.

I'm not saying it is possible now, I'm saying that obtaining matter to assemble into synthetic food may be possible in the future. We do create the ink for a deskjet printer, like in your example, but over the course of history ink has been made with many different materials. It may be possible to synthesise organic matter that could be consumed for nutrition using elements and compounds found on a colonised planet. This would be self-sustaining.

I realise that making a system self-sustaining would be extremely difficult, but not impossible, and that is the largest obstacle to living away from the earth's self-sustaining ecological systems.
Title: Re: Can We Ever Colonize Space?
Post by: moog on March 09, 2013, 06:24:08 AM
Quote from: "VaasMontenegro"Not to stir up a conspiracy, but if contact was/has been made made, the public would/will be the last to know about it, considering the mass hysteria would cause.

Why would there be mass panic because a radio signal was picked up from a few hundred light years away?
Title: Re: Can We Ever Colonize Space?
Post by: zacherystaylor on March 09, 2013, 01:28:12 PM
Quote from: "FrankDK">    Why haven't they colonized the earth yet?


Frank

According to the Twilight Zone they have; that is where we came from.
Title: Re: Can We Ever Colonize Space?
Post by: zacherystaylor on March 09, 2013, 01:34:08 PM
As for colonizing relatively near space, mostly orbiting the Earth or perhaps Mars, I suspect it might eventually be possible but it would almost certainly require support from Earth. this would mean that Carl Sagan's suggestion, which I assume was sarcastic, that we have to learn how to colonize space because we're in the process of destroying this planet won't hold up.

If we can't stop destroying this planet we can't colonize space at all much longer.

My best guess is that if it is possible to colonize extensively beyond our solar system it will involve mechanical colonization and artificial intelligence. we almost certainly can't bring a sustainable environment in the long run.
Title: Re:
Post by: Thumpalumpacus on March 09, 2013, 04:11:40 PM
Quote from: "Zatoichi"... we'll have to send out literally millions of them to survey for habitable worlds. It might be tough maintaining interest in such a program after the first thousand years and several million probes turn up nada.

Von Neuman speculated decades ago about self-replicating machines.  I would imagine that search probes would be managed through such a hierarchy of nested chains of command.  Amway isn't entirely useless, eh?
Title: Re:
Post by: robandrob1 on March 10, 2013, 06:03:01 AM
Quote from: "Zatoichi"to find those needles in the haystack. But since we have a few billion years before our Sun burns out, I suppose that's plenty of time to get lucky.

If this is ever to be done I think it will have to start with a massive unmanned probe campaign... we'll have to send out literally millions of them to survey for habitable worlds. .


In a relatively short amount of time we'll be able to provide an estimate of how habitable an extra solar planet is by using spectroscopy to analyse the contents of it's atmosphere.  No probes required to determine whether a planet is worth closer inspection.  With the telescopes in development we'll be able to get useful images of extra solar planets in the first half of this century.  Granted the resulting image will just look like a fuzzy dot, but the color of that fuzzy dot can tell you a lot about the planet.  You'd then only have to send out probes to investigate the earth sized planets in their stars habitable zones that when imaged were blue fuzzy dots with oxygen in their atmosphere.  At that point I think your odds on to find a planet that at the very least could be easily terraformed, the worst result would be that the probe arrives to find the planet is completely covered by an ocean of liquid water or that it's a snowball.

I am however pesismistic about the possibility of colonizing other star systems for reasons other than ones you originally stated.  Namely, I don't think our species in it's current form is going to be around in 500 years, or if we are we won't be the ones doing the colonizing and the exploring.  If we continue on our present course artificial intelligence will completely surpass us  within a couple of hundred years, Humans will probably try to keep up using genetic engineering to improve cognition, lifespan and reflexes but it won't be enough.  I think the major decisions will largely be made by artificial super-intelligence's, then there will be a few different tiers of Human's depending on their level of genetic/cybernetic enhancement,  then right at the bottom of the pile will be baseline Human's.  That's not to say we'll necessarily be oppressed or exterminated, but why would they send the least intelligent sentient beings with the shortest lifespans to do the exploring and colonizing?
Title: Re: Can We Ever Colonize Space?
Post by: Youssuf Ramadan on March 10, 2013, 07:31:10 AM
Quote from: "VaasMontenegro"
Quote from: "Youssuf Ramadan"I think we could, but I don't think we will.  For a start, who's paying?  It will need a massive paradigm shift before someone will be willing to stump up sufficient cash for something with no comeback in their lifetime.   And it won't be cheap.  Who knows, it may take a disaster to force the issue....  :shock:

Private companies are already showing that they are more than willing to pay for trips into space. Space X are ferrying supplies to the ISS for NASA and the Russian Space Agency, another company has already set a date for the first commercial flights to the Moon in 2020, another company is planning the first manned fly-by of Mars and The Mars-One project, which will send the first - permanently settling- manned mission to mars in 2023, is run by a private company.

Yes, a bit different to a mass-move to another habitable planet though.  And the companies will all get some sort of profit from that in one form or another.  I'm not expecting any companies to provide humanity with a free lunch any time soon.  It will be interesting to see developments, but looking through the thread there's a hell of a lot of ifs and maybes.  One thing is for sure, it won't affect peasants like us....  :-|

Quote from: "VaasMontenegro"The future of space travel will have nothing to do with the governments, and NASA will be the minority party when it comes to space travel.

I don't know if NASA will even exist that far in the future.  Also I would suggest that the dividing line between government and private company will probably bocome even more blurred by then.

Interesting topic for sure!
Title: Re: Can We Ever Colonize Space?
Post by: commonsense822 on March 10, 2013, 11:34:08 AM
We could most certainly colonize space, but personally I think it would be a better long term solution to terraform planets.  And believe it or not, we can theoretically terraform Mars if we chose to.

We're pretty good at figuring out how to survive in places we are not supposed to survive.  We are a virtually hairless species that was meant to survive in sub-Saharan temperatures.  We developed housing and clothing that allows us to live in multiple climates outside of what we are naturally supposed to.  We will do the same with space.

We are persistent fucks.
Title: Re: Can We Ever Colonize Space?
Post by: Hydra009 on March 10, 2013, 02:07:30 PM
Quote from: "commonsense822"We could most certainly colonize space, but personally I think it would be a better long term solution to terraform planets.  And believe it or not, we can theoretically terraform Mars if we chose to.
Yeah, but isn't the best case scenario on that taking tens of thousands of years?  It'd probably be easier to fabricate space-based colonies and live there.
Title: Re: Can We Ever Colonize Space?
Post by: commonsense822 on March 10, 2013, 03:22:13 PM
Quote from: "Hydra009"
Quote from: "commonsense822"We could most certainly colonize space, but personally I think it would be a better long term solution to terraform planets.  And believe it or not, we can theoretically terraform Mars if we chose to.
Yeah, but isn't the best case scenario on that taking tens of thousands of years?  It'd probably be easier to fabricate space-based colonies and live there.

It wouldn't necessarily take that long though.  For example, one of the theories to terraform Mars is to reintroduce greenhouse gases to the planet to raise it's temperature and thicken its atmosphere.  Mars actually has CO[sub:30ixqar5]2[/sub:30ixqar5] frozen at its polar caps, which is the same gas that is causing a rise in temperatures here on Earth.  You melt those caps (ideally with large mirrors placed in orbit to reflect the light of the sun) and the planet will start to heat up and fill the planet with more Co[sub:30ixqar5]2[/sub:30ixqar5].  Then there is the matter of being able to breath on the planet.  This can be achieved simply by introducing plants to the Martian surface.  They breath CO[sub:30ixqar5]2[/sub:30ixqar5] and exhale oxygen, eventually filling the atmosphere with enough oxygen that we can breath.

And all we need is to increase the Martian temperature a few degrees and it will have further snowball effects that will work in our favor for terraforming, similarly to how just a few degrees change of our global temperature on Earth creates a snowball effect that works against us here.  Think about how long the effects of man made global warming have been acting on the Earth.  About 200 years, and scientists predict by 2100 if global warming continues it will be too late to change.  We would be working on a similar time scale with Mars, should take about 200-300 years.


EDIT: We could even build bases on the surface of Mars while we wait for the effects of the terraforming to kick in.  Eventually as the atmosphere thickens we would be able to walk the surface without the need for pressure suits, only oxygen masks, and those would eventually become unnecessary as well.

A planet offers a lot more natural protection than an orbital space station, space being one of the harshest environments we have encountered.
Title: Re: Can We Ever Colonize Space?
Post by: GurrenLagann on March 10, 2013, 10:04:38 PM
It should be noted that if people ever move to Mars, they basically could never return to live on Earth, since their bodies would adapt to the decreased gravity, they could no longer handle Earth's gravity if they stayed on Mars for too long.

Also, they fact that Mars doesn't have a Magnetosphere means any man-made atmosphere we create would quickly be blown away by the Sun.
Title: Re: Can We Ever Colonize Space?
Post by: FrankDK on March 10, 2013, 10:28:15 PM
> Also, they fact that Mars doesn't have a Magnetosphere means any man-made atmosphere we create would quickly be blown away by the Sun.

It also means if they spent much time above ground, they would all die soon from cancer, since the radiation would be very high.

Frank
Title: Re: Can We Ever Colonize Space?
Post by: Hydra009 on March 11, 2013, 02:54:05 AM
Quote from: "commonsense822"It wouldn't necessarily take that long though.  For example, one of the theories to terraform Mars is to reintroduce greenhouse gases to the planet to raise it's temperature and thicken its atmosphere.  Mars actually has CO[sub:1f61au3i]2[/sub:1f61au3i] frozen at its polar caps, which is the same gas that is causing a rise in temperatures here on Earth.  You melt those caps (ideally with large mirrors placed in orbit to reflect the light of the sun) and the planet will start to heat up and fill the planet with more Co[sub:1f61au3i]2[/sub:1f61au3i].  Then there is the matter of being able to breath on the planet.  This can be achieved simply by introducing plants to the Martian surface.  They breath CO[sub:1f61au3i]2[/sub:1f61au3i] and exhale oxygen, eventually filling the atmosphere with enough oxygen that we can breath.

And all we need is to increase the Martian temperature a few degrees and it will have further snowball effects that will work in our favor for terraforming, similarly to how just a few degrees change of our global temperature on Earth creates a snowball effect that works against us here.  Think about how long the effects of man made global warming have been acting on the Earth.  About 200 years, and scientists predict by 2100 if global warming continues it will be too late to change.  We would be working on a similar time scale with Mars, should take about 200-300 years.
These are good points and all, but part of my hesitation in committing to such a grand project is precisely because of climate change.  I mean, we can't even stabilize our own climate, let an alien one.

In contrast, we can have space colonies in Earth orbit at a fraction of the cost and time - and managing their climates would be much, much easier.  And they'd be well within reach in the case of an emergency.  One huge downside - and it is a doozy - is the utter dependence on the Earth for supplies.  Despite that, it sounds like a better option, at least short term.

Now, this might seem like a dumb question, but by the time that we have a habitable Mars with breathable air, would we even need it?  Let's look at it this way - why do we need to set up colonies on other worlds in the first place?  Space to live.  Arable land.  Raw materials.  Waystations for travel to even more distant celestial bodies.  Etc.

Could we find other ways of meeting those needs or at least minimizing them?  Suppose we find more efficient ways of making use of this planet.  Or greatly increase our spacefaring range.  Or some other novel technology that greatly changes how we live.  Could planetary colonization become an obsolete endeavor?
Title: Re: Can We Ever Colonize Space?
Post by: Colanth on March 11, 2013, 10:25:25 PM
Quote from: "commonsense822"It wouldn't necessarily take that long though.  For example, one of the theories to terraform Mars is to reintroduce greenhouse gases to the planet to raise it's temperature and thicken its atmosphere.  Mars actually has CO[sub:145iiuot]2[/sub:145iiuot] frozen at its polar caps, which is the same gas that is causing a rise in temperatures here on Earth.  You melt those caps (ideally with large mirrors placed in orbit to reflect the light of the sun) and the planet will start to heat up and fill the planet with more Co[sub:145iiuot]2[/sub:145iiuot].  Then there is the matter of being able to breath on the planet.  This can be achieved simply by introducing plants to the Martian surface.  They breath CO[sub:145iiuot]2[/sub:145iiuot] and exhale oxygen, eventually filling the atmosphere with enough oxygen that we can breath.
Which, of course, reduces the percentage of CO[sub:145iiuot]2[/sub:145iiuot], reducing the temperature.  (Remember, Mars is receiving a lot less heat per square foot than we are, so you'd need an unbreatheable atmosphere to keep the temperature up to what we consider comfortable.)
Title: Re: Can We Ever Colonize Space?
Post by: Davka on March 12, 2013, 06:44:37 PM
Quote from: "Colanth"
Quote from: "commonsense822"It wouldn't necessarily take that long though.  For example, one of the theories to terraform Mars is to reintroduce greenhouse gases to the planet to raise it's temperature and thicken its atmosphere.  Mars actually has CO[sub:19l7zfzv]2[/sub:19l7zfzv] frozen at its polar caps, which is the same gas that is causing a rise in temperatures here on Earth.  You melt those caps (ideally with large mirrors placed in orbit to reflect the light of the sun) and the planet will start to heat up and fill the planet with more Co[sub:19l7zfzv]2[/sub:19l7zfzv].  Then there is the matter of being able to breath on the planet.  This can be achieved simply by introducing plants to the Martian surface.  They breath CO[sub:19l7zfzv]2[/sub:19l7zfzv] and exhale oxygen, eventually filling the atmosphere with enough oxygen that we can breath.
Which, of course, reduces the percentage of CO[sub:19l7zfzv]2[/sub:19l7zfzv], reducing the temperature.  (Remember, Mars is receiving a lot less heat per square foot than we are, so you'd need an unbreatheable atmosphere to keep the temperature up to what we consider comfortable.)

Which is why we need to lasso a couple of hydrogen-rich asteroids, haul them over to Mars, and use them to fuel some big-assed rockets stuck point-down into the planet's surface, to shove Mars into the same orbital plane as Earth.

Of course, we'll also have to come up with a way to liquify Mars' core while we're at it, and maybe haul another bunch of asteroids into orbit around Mars so it will have a Moon, and probably crash a buttload of ice asteroids into Mars to give it oceans, but those are mere quibbling details after we've moved an entire planet some 366 million KM.
Title: Re: Can We Ever Colonize Space?
Post by: GurrenLagann on March 13, 2013, 02:42:06 AM
By the time we're capable of that (if it can be done...), we'll have almost certainly transcended any absolute need for Mars as another home.
Title:
Post by: Colanth on March 13, 2013, 05:14:30 PM
Or any need to live on planets.