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News & General Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Aletheia on December 04, 2014, 03:54:27 AM

Title: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Aletheia on December 04, 2014, 03:54:27 AM
"...but I respect your opinion."

I know, I really shouldn't lower myself to youtube comment wars, but sometimes the temptation is too much, and dammit, I've had to choke on this asinine comment until I've practically wanted to vomit.

The discussion, unlike other comments, was rather peaceful, but this person was still under the impression from their own personal experience (from initially being "gay" and then falling in love and marrying a woman) that they had overcome homosexuality and therefore so too should others. They concluded that homosexuality was indeed a choice since they were able to choose to be with a woman.

I argued they were merely bisexual - not homosexual/heterosexual, and due to the fluidity of that orientation it is possible they were simply mistaken in thinking they had made any choice at all. In fact, they were still bound by their bisexuality with all the helplessness of any homosexual or heterosexual individual.

This person quoted a little scripture, went back and forth, and they finally ended with the agree to disagree bunk, in which they state their opinion is still unchanged despite evidence to the contrary and essentially calling for the "tolerate me" card. I wasn't having any of it. I've had to swallow that shit far too much and far too often.

So, with my final response, I spoke my mind. I know this individual will never change their opinions, but these things needed to be said anyway.

This is what I wrote:

Scientific evidence shows that homosexuality is not a choice, anymore than the natural color of our eyes or the color of our skin. There are those of us who feel the pressure to conform to societal standards of the "right" orientation, sometimes involving pain, suffering, and shame... and yet, our eyes see beauty in the same sex and our heart yearns for a soul mate of the same sex. Changing that by willpower alone is like spitting against the wind. People are dragged behind cars, hung until dead, stoned to death, and die gruesome deaths all around the world because they can't "change." Much like their straight counterparts, gays are at the mercy of the compulsion of love... that emotion bordering somewhere between insanity and the highest levels of self-lessness. When we fall in love, it is real, it is true, and it can be just as soul-freeing and soul-crushing as the love any straight person may ever feel. Believe contrary to the evidence around you that homosexuality is a choice, but nobody would choose to be so misunderstood, hated, and have their family turn so ruthlessly on them.

Homosexuality is merely another facet of the diversity of mankind that must be accepted as true if we are to ever to progress closer to truly being unified as a species. Mankind will never find peace in this world if he cannot accept that which he (or she) does not like or understand about his own kind.You say I am not slum, and yet you treat me as though I were a lesser person because you do not listen to the evidence that only a homosexual can disclose - the homosexual perspective. Bisexuals can fluidly move between the two main sexualities thinking they've converted over. Heterosexuals and homosexuals remain locked in the orientations chosen for them before their birth, and you have the audacity to call that a choice?
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: SGOS on December 04, 2014, 05:51:27 AM
OK, so this guy has an opinion.  I have an opinion.  He's an idiot.  The research on this matter has been ongoing long enough that there's a pretty good indication that sexual orientation is likely genetic.  But it's not entirely conclusive, I suppose, because they have not located a gene.  Obviously, since the answer has not been determined with the finality we would like, we have no recourse but to accept some idiot's opinion as the final word.

But beyond the fact that an opinion seems rather over-rated, why should I give a shit in the first place?  Genetic predisposition or personal life choice, I don't care who someone choses as a sexual partner, as long as it's consensual.

You know what I think is going on in that guy's mind?  By recognizing homosexuality as a genetic component of human makeup, it removes a weapon from the homophobic arsenal.  One can no longer lavish his disgust and hatred on a minority group with impunity.  It brings an asshole one step closer to the realization that he is indeed and asshole.  It takes a little wind out of the superior air.  It takes the logic out of hating and discriminating.  Pretty soon, the person will have to wake up and realize he's been being a dickhead for no really good reason.  It forces him to find some other pursuit in his life.  God forbid it might even be more productive and less harmful.

Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: FaithIsFilth on December 04, 2014, 09:51:48 AM
I think a bisexual can repress the gay part of themselves to the point where their gayness becomes pretty much irrelevant, sort of the same way most men (or a lot, I can't read minds) repress their attraction to young people. If it were not seen as a bad thing now, and if the law did not consider them underage, most men would have/ admit an attraction for 12/13 year old girls.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Solitary on December 04, 2014, 10:12:10 AM
I would like to ad that even homosexuals or lesbians can have sex with a straight person, even falling in love with the opposite sex, even though their preference is the same sex as they are. This whole idea of homosexual, bisexual, and straight is, BS from the psychological idiots that once thought homosexuality is a mental illness. We all have both traits in us, some more lopsided than others. Our hormones and circumstances decide the outcome of a relationship, or even if it happens in a sexual relationship. But societal pressures and religion make people feel guilt for having any feelings that is not according to their code of ethics. I know this because I fell in love with a lesbian, and she did with me too, even though she preferred sex with girls up to then. Having sex is a choice, but not one's feelings are not a choice anymore than what food they prefer, or what field of making a living are, that they prefer. Psychologists and psychiatrists are a product of religious nonsense and the culture they are in, like witch doctors, shamans, gurus, priests, religious authority figures, and other people that think we are spiritual beings with no brain or body, with no reliable evidence to back any of their opinions up :wall:. Solitary
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Jason78 on December 04, 2014, 01:30:09 PM
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I know, I really shouldn't lower myself to youtube comment wars, but sometimes the temptation is too much, and dammit, I've had to choke on this asinine comment until I've practically wanted to vomit.

I find that taking a deep breath in, then taking a moment to accept that there are total arseholes out there, and then slowly exhaling calms me down a treat when I read things like that.

Edit: referring of course to the comment that you read, not what you just wrote.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Aletheia on December 04, 2014, 01:43:11 PM
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I find that taking a deep breath in, then taking a moment to accept that there are total arseholes out there, and then slowly exhaling calms me down a treat when I read things like that.

Edit: referring of course to the comment that you read, not what you just wrote.

This helped to restore my faith in humanity:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JibZ2U3o-M[/youtube]

Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: stromboli on December 04, 2014, 01:56:06 PM
You have to understand. I grew up with these types of narrow minded people. And really.... oh wait, no; they are just stupid.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: aitm on December 04, 2014, 02:03:18 PM
Most straight people are simply ignorant, and as there are more of them the ignorance sometimes seems overwhelming, of course that is because it is. Straight people think its either "black or white". Most straights, being ignorant, are also unaware that anywhere from 1.5 to 2% of humanity is born androgynous, with both sex organs. Now to a reasonable person, this should suggest that as physical androgyny is very real, psychological androgyny should be equally possible. So that there should be a multitude of degrees to which any individual can find themselves attracted to either or both sexes. I have never been able to grasp what's hard about this to understand.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on December 04, 2014, 02:05:44 PM
It's not a choice for me. When I lived on Miami Beach I was declared the straightest man on Earth. Sorry, guys.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Aletheia on December 04, 2014, 02:22:48 PM
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It's not a choice for me. When I lived on Miami Beach I was declared the straightest man on Earth. Sorry, guys.

It's ok, the gay community will manage without your undeniable beauty in the ranks. It won't be easy, but they'll survive.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Aletheia on December 04, 2014, 02:25:00 PM
Understood Aitm. The forum I've been cheating on AF with has a lot of people of different sexualities, some of whom are androgynous, asexual, demi-sexual... etc. It's been rather interesting meeting such people, even if only through the internet.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: aitm on December 04, 2014, 02:32:37 PM
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. The forum I've been cheating on AF with 

 :eek:


 :axe:
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: TrueStory on December 04, 2014, 03:27:42 PM
Being a choice is irrelevant.  It's just another word game that bible thumpers play to create an issue out of a non issue.  We should be able to have sex with any consensual partner we want to, no point discussing it further with someone who believes in magic.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Solitary on December 04, 2014, 03:32:08 PM
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This helped to restore my faith in humanity:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JibZ2U3o-M[/youtube]


I've seen this before, but it is a great video!
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Solitary on December 04, 2014, 03:34:44 PM
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Being a choice is irrelevant.  It's just another word game that bible thumpers play to create an issue out of a non issue.  We should be able to have sex with any consensual partner we want to, no point discussing it further with someone who believes in magic.
That is a great response! 
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: stromboli on December 04, 2014, 05:27:10 PM
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It's not a choice for me. When I lived on Miami Beach I was declared the straightest man on Earth. Sorry, guys.

Yeah, after 4 years in the Navy-about 1.5 years at sea aboard ship- I can guarantee I'll never get a stiffie over a man. I've seen my share of nekkid bodies.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on December 04, 2014, 05:53:21 PM
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It's ok, the gay community will manage without your undeniable beauty in the ranks. It won't be easy, but they'll survive.
Yeah, that's what they said. ;-)
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: GrinningYMIR on December 04, 2014, 06:22:00 PM
You can't control who you're attracted to, whether you act on that is another matter. And people aren't locked into one sexual preference, straight gay or otherwise

Actually read a study once that said that stuff that happened during puberty had an effect on sexuality, or at least a little on what attracts you. Something along the line of seeing it unlocks something subconsciously and you think "I like that" without registering it. The reason given was that people need to spread the gene pool so they hunt it down or something, it made a little sense

Anyway what I was getting at is that people have a lot of sexual preferences, and that's not even including individual sexual fetishes and kinks, that's all over the place. Being gay isn't a choice ing that'd, neither is beig straight, at most people can force themselves one way and it might work, but it is the exception and not the rule
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Solitary on December 04, 2014, 06:52:17 PM
I have twelve inches, but as a rule I don't use it.  :eek: :lipsrsealed:
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Munch on December 04, 2014, 08:09:16 PM
Homosexuality is about choice. I can choose if i would fancy 12 inch black, or 12 inch white, or the latino variety.
We also have a nice choice of strawberry, lemon, banana or peace flavor.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: PickelledEggs on December 04, 2014, 08:37:04 PM
His opinion isn't that homosexuality is a choice; it's that the studies that back up the fact that it isn't a choice seems wrong to him. His claim that it IS a choice is not an opinion, it's simply misinformation....

Great response, though Aletheia. Very well said.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Berati on December 05, 2014, 11:49:42 PM
I don't think its a choice nor do I believe that it matters even if it were.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on December 06, 2014, 05:51:15 AM
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I don't think its a choice nor do I believe that it matters even if it were.
I agree. If you want to have fun with someone of your own sex what's the big deal.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Munch on December 06, 2014, 08:17:52 AM
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I agree. If you want to have fun with someone of your own sex what's the big deal.

The big deal is that gawd (if you take into account gawd is the mindset of primitive desert peddlers from 2000 years ago) thinks its wrong, and thats what matters.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: the_antithesis on December 06, 2014, 08:42:37 AM
The way homosexuals are treated, why the fuck would anyone choose to be gay?
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: SGOS on December 06, 2014, 10:11:56 AM
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The big deal is that gawd (if you take into account gawd is the mindset of primitive desert peddlers from 2000 years ago) thinks its wrong, and thats what matters.
A guy once told me, "The only reason you believe there's nothing wrong with homosexuality is because you don't believe in God.  There's a shitload of questions one can then ask about this person's view.  For one, is the only reason he believes there is something wrong with it is because he believes in God?  I don't presume the dynamics are that simple of course, but he does think the dynamics are that simple for me.   Does he take into account any of his own feelings, or has he considered not worrying about what others do?  No.  On the surface, it's just what God tells him.  That's what he's says he goes by.

Of course, this is bullshit.  God tells him whatever he defines what God is saying, which of course comes from inside his brain, not God's.  So he's got his personal dynamic at work whether he stops to see what it is or not.  He's also armed with a load of scientific information.  Apparently, scientists agree that homosexuality is not normal.  I have no idea what his sources were for that, but clearly, there's more than just God involved in his bias.

Now this is not some internet troll.  This is a real guy who boasts an IQ of 190.  I'm not making this up.  He said he was told he has a 190 IQ, and he knows it's true because he can tell he's smarter than most people.  He's quite sincere.  Now obviously, he has a low functioning intellectual ability, which becomes apparent during any short conversation with him.  But he believes he knows the score, and you don't.  And he believes it's up to society to save gays from themselves.  He's just doing his part by sharing is vast store of knowledge.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on December 06, 2014, 10:12:46 AM
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The big deal is that gawd (if you take into account gawd is the mindset of primitive desert peddlers from 2000 years ago) thinks its wrong, and thats what matters.
Only in certain religions.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Munch on December 06, 2014, 05:10:40 PM
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A guy once told me, "The only reason you believe there's nothing wrong with homosexuality is because you don't believe in God.  There's a shitload of questions one can then ask about this person's view.  For one, is the only reason he believes there is something wrong with it is because he believes in God?  I don't presume the dynamics are that simple of course, but he does think the dynamics are that simple for me.   Does he take into account any of his own feelings, or has he considered not worrying about what others do?  No.  On the surface, it's just what God tells him.  That's what he's says he goes by.

Of course, this is bullshit.  God tells him whatever he defines what God is saying, which of course comes from inside his brain, not God's.  So he's got his personal dynamic at work whether he stops to see what it is or not.  He's also armed with a load of scientific information.  Apparently, scientists agree that homosexuality is not normal.  I have no idea what his sources were for that, but clearly, there's more than just God involved in his bias.

Now this is not some internet troll.  This is a real guy who boasts an IQ of 190.  I'm not making this up.  He said he was told he has a 190 IQ, and he knows it's true because he can tell he's smarter than most people.  He's quite sincere.  Now obviously, he has a low functioning intellectual ability, which becomes apparent during any short conversation with him.  But he believes he knows the score, and you don't.  And he believes it's up to society to save gays from themselves.  He's just doing his part by sharing is vast store of knowledge.

It sounds to me like this guy you mentioned might have Savant syndrome? He's apparently a genius but has a mental disorder in believing in unfounded fairytales and thinks it has a standard in reality.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: stromboli on December 06, 2014, 06:42:36 PM
The guy that won all the money on Jeopardy, Ken Jennings, is a Mormon and hasn't renounced his religion. The guy that wrote "Ender's Game" is a college professor and very antigay. Being brilliant doesn't mean you can't still apply cognitive dissonance to aspects of life. I knew a Mormon bishop that was a professor at Harvard. Takes all kinds.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on December 06, 2014, 07:11:32 PM
"It takes more than being smart to be intelligent."
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Munch on December 06, 2014, 07:57:59 PM
Its like a computer, it might contain an endless access to knowledge, but that doesn't stop it being corrupted by viruses and adware, fucking it up inside.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: SGOS on December 06, 2014, 08:55:47 PM
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It sounds to me like this guy you mentioned might have Savant syndrome? He's apparently a genius but has a mental disorder in believing in unfounded fairytales and thinks it has a standard in reality.
The thing is, he's only convinced his IQ is 190.  I don't think he knows what that means exactly.  It's nothing more than an inflated ego.  In actual life, he has limited information about most everything, and is poor in basics like problem solving.  He believes he is logical, but could not give you a precise definition of logic.  He just assumes what he believes is logical, because well, he believes it, so it must be.  While intelligence may or may not be and end all be all, he has little of it, uses even less, and is actually willfully ignorant, although he will lecture you as an expert about most any topic.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Solitary on December 06, 2014, 10:43:51 PM
Hi all you adorable atheists, I made a choice to be who I am when I was born. (http://i.imgur.com/7P7IBm8.jpg)
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Mermaid on December 07, 2014, 09:43:36 AM
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Being a choice is irrelevant.  It's just another word game that bible thumpers play to create an issue out of a non issue.  We should be able to have sex with any consensual partner we want to, no point discussing it further with someone who believes in magic.
It never ceases to amaze me how people attempt to control things that have nothing to do with them, don't affect them and is none of their business.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Solitary on December 07, 2014, 11:16:16 AM
 :super:  Well said!
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on December 07, 2014, 05:47:28 PM
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It never ceases to amaze me how people attempt to control things that have nothing to do with them, don't affect them and is none of their business.
It's the "Rule of Can't".

I can, so you can't.
I can't, so you can't.
I want to, so you can't.
I don't want to, so you can't.
I'm afraid to, so you can't.
Fuck it, you just can't.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Aletheia on December 08, 2014, 08:30:48 PM
There's been some speculation that homosexual behavior may have stemmed from a need for social cohesion within a group, in which the hormones necessary for such a bond are tweaked to extend to members of the same sex. If this speculation is true, then it would be pitifully ironic that so much hate is directed toward what may have been an evolutionary strategy to increase social cohesion necessary for survival.

God says hate the gays and nature says love, love, love!
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: stromboli on December 08, 2014, 08:36:22 PM
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There's been some speculation that homosexual behavior may have stemmed from a need for social cohesion within a group, in which the hormones necessary for such a bond are tweaked to extend to members of the same sex. If this speculation is true, then it would be pitifully ironic that so much hate is directed toward what may have been an evolutionary strategy to increase social cohesion necessary for survival.

God says hate the gays and nature says love, love, love!

Right. I recall seeing similar statements, esp. among primate groups. The homosexuals in the group serve a function in child caring and bonding that benefits the tribe. I would far rather see a nurturing gay couple adopting an otherwise unwanted child and raising it lovingly than the "19 kids and counting" garbage we see in society. Makes a great deal more sense.

(edit) and again we are back to who the fuck business is it anyway who is fucking whom? If two people can find love with each other and form a special bond between them, why not? I'm reminded of the gay couple at my daughter's wedding. They came all the way from Philadelphia to participate in my daughter's wedding in Colorado and that by itself was special. And the in laws who were their family all accepted them without question. The night was memorable, it was special and full of love, everyone knowing and sharing hugs and family affection together.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: aitm on December 08, 2014, 09:28:06 PM
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There's been some speculation that homosexual behavior may have stemmed from a need for social cohesion within a group, in which the hormones necessary for such a bond are tweaked to extend to members of the same sex. If this speculation is true, then it would be pitifully ironic that so much hate is directed toward what may have been an evolutionary strategy to increase social cohesion necessary for survival.

God says hate the gays and nature says love, love, love!
interesting. i have never heard that before. I am a little skeptical of it but would love to see more.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: the_antithesis on December 09, 2014, 12:22:16 AM
"I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice but I respect your opinion."

"Are you gay?"

"What?"

"I asked if you were gay?"

"No."

"Then shut up."
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Aletheia on December 09, 2014, 04:20:31 AM
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interesting. i have never heard that before. I am a little skeptical of it but would love to see more.

So far, it's mostly speculation:

Click Here (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/11/26/homosexuality-evolution-social-bonding_n_6218406.html)
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Atheon on December 09, 2014, 06:24:01 AM
Homosexuality can be a choice in the same way that I can just as easily choose to eat brussels sprouts (which I detest beyond measure) as I could choose to suck some guy's dick or let some dude buttfuck me (which I wouldn't derive any enjoyment out of whatsoever).

But just as I can't choose to like brussels sprouts, I can't choose to be gay.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: aitm on December 09, 2014, 07:30:26 AM
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So far, it's mostly speculation:

Click Here (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/11/26/homosexuality-evolution-social-bonding_n_6218406.html)
Interesting, but I still think it's a lot simpler than that. If humans can be born with both sex organs and with varying degrees of each, then certainly humans can be born with varying degrees of psychological androgyny.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Mermaid on December 09, 2014, 07:59:21 AM
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There's been some speculation that homosexual behavior may have stemmed from a need for social cohesion within a group, in which the hormones necessary for such a bond are tweaked to extend to members of the same sex. If this speculation is true, then it would be pitifully ironic that so much hate is directed toward what may have been an evolutionary strategy to increase social cohesion necessary for survival.

God says hate the gays and nature says love, love, love!
That's evolution mumbo-jumbo, and we all know evolution is a scam fabricated by the liberals.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Munch on December 09, 2014, 11:00:38 AM
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Interesting, but I still think it's a lot simpler than that. If humans can be born with both sex organs and with varying degrees of each, then certainly humans can be born with varying degrees of psychological androgyny.

Indeed, sexuality isn't as black and as it would appear, every persons sexuality has varying degrees, and yet its because of the constraints in society that they end up calling into different catagories. some might be only intrested in one sex, others might be intrested in both sexes, others might be intrested in any kind of sexuality, and so on, not forgetting all the endless fetishes people have coupled with that.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: stromboli on December 09, 2014, 11:58:48 AM
The issue of homosexuality is simply a human rights issue. The idea of gays being evil/sinful/in error is completely based on cultural or religious stigma. There have been societies that accepted it, and others not. It is simply a matter of removing the cultural stigma and looking at it without bias. All that is wrong with sexual behavior is only wrong  to those who are culturally or religiously biased to view it that way.

Regardless of whether it is choice or not is really not the issue. People, various stars, have come out as bisexual. Whether that is biological we'll let the scientists decide. It is in the end just a cultural and religious bias, after all the smoke finally clears.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Deidre32 on December 31, 2014, 12:17:21 AM
Even if it is a choice...who cares? It's still none of my business what people choose to do, in the privacy of their own homes (between two consenting adults)
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Mequa on January 04, 2015, 05:34:48 AM
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Even if it is a choice...who cares? It's still none of my business what people choose to do, in the privacy of their own homes (between two consenting adults)
Consenting adults can still be abusive. If they are both adults, and consenting, yet there is abuse and exploitation going on, I would say this is a very different matter to a non-abusive consensual relationship.

Consent also needs to be mutually informed, in my view. If consent is based on belief in a lie through deception, such that consent would quite simply not take place if such deception were not present, then the consent is not informed.

Personally, I would raise the stakes to non-abusive mutually-informed consent before considering it genuinely none of my business. Abusers tend to inspire my martial impulses, and a passionate desire to take out the trash.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Aletheia on January 04, 2015, 03:18:04 PM
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Consenting adults can still be abusive. If they are both adults, and consenting, yet there is abuse and exploitation going on, I would say this is a very different matter to a non-abusive consensual relationship.

Consent also needs to be mutually informed, in my view. If consent is based on belief in a lie through deception, such that consent would quite simply not take place if such deception were not present, then the consent is not informed.

Personally, I would raise the stakes to non-abusive mutually-informed consent before considering it genuinely none of my business. Abusers tend to inspire my martial impulses, and a passionate desire to take out the trash.

Could you elaborate? Given that this thread is about homosexuality, does this mean that consensual homosexual relationships could qualify as abuse or exploitation?

I know in battered spouse syndrome, the person suffering from the abuse is in no way consenting, and desire very much for the abuse to end. They simply lack the strength and/or fortitude to overcome the situation they find themselves in, which is why outside parties are justified to intervene on the victim's behalf, if at all possible.

However, sado-masochistic relationships between two consenting adults can involve honest communication with both deriving happiness from the arrangement - one is happy to cause pain and the other happy to receive it. People in a relationship like this establish rules and will stop if one party no longer wishes to participate. In a situation like this, it is not justified for an outside party to intervene, since what may be abuse for an outside party is not necessarily abuse between two informed adults who respect each other's wishes.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Deidre32 on January 11, 2015, 11:42:23 PM
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Consenting adults can still be abusive. If they are both adults, and consenting, yet there is abuse and exploitation going on, I would say this is a very different matter to a non-abusive consensual relationship.

Consent also needs to be mutually informed, in my view. If consent is based on belief in a lie through deception, such that consent would quite simply not take place if such deception were not present, then the consent is not informed.

Personally, I would raise the stakes to non-abusive mutually-informed consent before considering it genuinely none of my business. Abusers tend to inspire my martial impulses, and a passionate desire to take out the trash.

I agree with the elaboration. But, given the nature of the question...it doesn't matter if homosexuality is a choice or not...as to whether or not two people who are consenting and not abusive wish to engage in sex.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: trdsf on January 14, 2015, 03:17:39 AM
What I want to know is, if it's a choice, why do the people who think it's a choice never explain when and how they chose to be straight?
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on January 16, 2015, 07:48:10 AM
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What I want to know is, if it's a choice, why do the people who think it's a choice never explain when and how they chose to be straight?
Ellen DeGeneris's girlfriend went straight. "I've been lied to."
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Desdinova on January 16, 2015, 10:48:49 AM
This is golden.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxlqXb0bRBc
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Atheon on January 17, 2015, 12:56:08 AM
Sexuality is a spectrum. Homosexuality/heterosexuality is a choice for those who are attracted, to a certain degree, to members of both sexes. For people on the more exclusive ends of the spectrum, I can't see it being a choice.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: SGOS on January 17, 2015, 06:04:03 AM
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Sexuality is a spectrum. Homosexuality/heterosexuality is a choice for those who are attracted, to a certain degree, to members of both sexes. For people on the more exclusive ends of the spectrum, I can't see it being a choice.

For many who are adamant that homosexuality is a choice, I suspect they are bisexual, and since that is their personal experience with sexuality, it would probably be seen as a choice for everyone.  But not everyone is near the center of the scale.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Draconic Aiur on January 17, 2015, 06:25:22 AM
I got banned from this forum for a few mins, because I decided to choose to be gay and hit on skeletal atheist. Didn't work out and many peeps thought I was pretentious ass troll. You can't just leap to the decision your gay or bisexual based on your brain;it's all decision of what your penis/vagina craves. like I'll admit i was being a lil pretentious but maybe 20 percent bi sexual due to my weird dick-o-meter. point is everyone is bisexual with a little nudge to the left or right and choice is bull,
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Mermaid on January 17, 2015, 08:35:48 AM
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For many who are adamant that homosexuality is a choice, I suspect they are bisexual,
I suspect they are self-centered and quite often painfully stupid.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: The Skeletal Atheist on January 17, 2015, 10:01:56 AM
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I got banned from this forum for a few mins, because I decided to choose to be gay and hit on skeletal atheist. Didn't work out and many peeps thought I was pretentious ass troll. You can't just leap to the decision your gay or bisexual based on your brain;it's all decision of what your penis/vagina craves. like I'll admit i was being a lil pretentious but maybe 20 percent bi sexual due to my weird dick-o-meter. point is everyone is bisexual with a little nudge to the left or right and choice is bull,

Haha, I remember that. It didn't really bother me, just caught me off guard.

As per being a choice...no, not for me at least.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Aletheia on January 31, 2015, 07:50:46 PM
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For many who are adamant that homosexuality is a choice, I suspect they are bisexual, and since that is their personal experience with sexuality, it would probably be seen as a choice for everyone.  But not everyone is near the center of the scale.

Oh no, don't throw that hot potato to the bisexual community - we'll throw it right back.

Bisexuality is viewed as another "I didn't have a choice in the matter" category by most of the bisexuals I've met in real life and online. As a community, bisexuals tend to agree that gays and straights are legitimate parts of the human sexuality and are rarely suspected of including people who are "bisexuals in denial."

If you're looking for a category of people who have caused quite a bit of drama on the matter - religious and predominately heterosexual still remains the main impediment to equality and acceptance of the entire spectrum of human sexuality.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Desdinova on February 02, 2015, 09:57:25 AM
Fuck who you want when you want.  As long as both are consenting adults and its behind closed doors its nobody's business.  Period.  End of fucking story.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Moloth on February 19, 2015, 04:01:12 PM
My favorite thought on "being gay is a choice":

"If being gay is a choice, then choose to be gay right now. Choose to be gay, get on your knees and suck my cock... and ENJOY it. Go at it with relish and aplomb. If you can choose to do that, right here, right now, and graciously, lovingly suck on my penis until orgasm, mine OR yours, then i'll agree that being gay is a choice. You would have absolutely made your point and i will concede. Then, of course, you are free to choose to be straight immediately after.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: BarkAtTheMoon on February 19, 2015, 04:39:47 PM
Even more than just that, choose to be gay...30 years ago or 50. If being gay was a choice there wouldn't have been any gay people in the past when they had *no* rights and it was even illegal in places, regularly assaulted for being gay, the specter of AIDS, probably disowned by your family, likely fired if you were found out. Why in the fuck would anyone choose that life? At least now there's been a lot of progress with rights and acceptance, but it still wouldn't be a very smart choice in a lot of places. This is pretty much the best time in history to be gay with a few localized exceptions, and they still take a lot of shit for it.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Moloth on February 20, 2015, 03:03:59 PM
Or, of course,

"when did you choose to be straight? what age? what was the moment?"
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Peter23 on February 21, 2015, 04:48:47 PM
Its both biological and a choice. Problem solved :)
Thats what differs humans who can spread ideas, and animals who simply cant ask if homosexuality is ok or not. Which is what humans can do due to language and information spread by the form called ideas.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Mermaid on February 21, 2015, 04:51:24 PM
what?
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Peter23 on February 21, 2015, 04:55:02 PM
Animal logic: I will fuck this because mating is good.(Instincts)
Human logic: I want to fuck, but hold on... ideas are coming.(Biological and thoughts) Makes it both a choice and biological thing. Thinking why you do it is something animals lack, which is why ideas spread.

Hope that sorta illustrated what i ment.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: SNP1 on February 21, 2015, 04:57:00 PM
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Animal logic: I will fuck this because mating is good.(Instincts)
Human logic: I want to fuck, but hold on... ideas are coming.(Biological and thoughts) Makes it both a choice and biological thing. Thinking why you do it is something animals lack, which is why ideas spread.

Hope that sorta illustrated what i ment.

Except that you are assuming the existence of free will, and you are assuming that people can override basic natural instincts.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Peter23 on February 21, 2015, 05:09:31 PM
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Except that you are assuming the existence of free will, and you are assuming that people can override basic natural instincts.

That's the point :)
It depends on where you stand yourself. Closeted people exists aswell. Ideas and biological behavior is the same thing that connects humans. Pedophilia and beastiality is also something inhereted on biological behavior. The only difference is that homosexuality is considered ok since its not traumatizing a kid, or having sex with a non consented animal.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Mermaid on February 21, 2015, 05:20:07 PM
Humans are animals.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Aletheia on February 21, 2015, 05:40:22 PM
Animal Instinct: I will fuck this because I have a compulsion to do it and the fact that it feels good encourages me to do it more often.
Human Instinct: I want to fuck this because I have a compulsion to do it and the fact that it feels good encourages me to do it more often.

There isn't any difference between human and animal instinct when it comes to sex. Not thought is required.

Human Implementation of Choice: I will not fuck this because society looks down on it, even though I have a strong compulsion to do so. Sexual impulses are part of my nature and the compulsion becomes stronger the more I repress it. I break down and fuck this because the compulsion became overwhelming. Society makes me feel guilty for doing so. I repress my sexual impulses until I finally break down. Each time repeating the cycle, and each time I consider myself weak, immoral, and feel that something is wrong with me. The dissonance between my instinct and my implementation of choice leads to an unpleasant life, and one day in a moment of deep despair, I commit suicide to end the suffering.


Our desire for sex and intimacy is one of our strongest drives. This instinct even has the ability to override hunger and thirst in some situations. You might as well say it's a choice for people to breathe and they can choose to stop and live a healthy life. Do not underestimate the power of instincts. Human beings may have the leg up when it comes to intelligence, but do not doubt for a moment that our instincts are something so easily disregarded.

Homosexuality is not a choice, anymore than heterosexuality. Homosexuals never had a choice in the matter and cannot suppress their sexuality without suffering some sort of mental illness. Cultures, societies, and nearly every aspect of human nature revolves around a person's innate sexuality. We are no more free from our instincts than any other animal.

ETA: Please do not make the assumption that we suppress anger and other negative emotions because we are overriding instincts. Humans have a very strong instinct to be part of a group and to be cooperative. If human beings really had a choice in the matter, most of us would have very little to do with other humans. Instinct drives us to be cooperative and to be around others.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Peter23 on February 21, 2015, 05:43:01 PM
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Humans are animals.
Biologically yes. But we are so much more developed on a mental state that choice is natural for us, aswell as the biological nature. If any animal species where as evolved as us. They too would ask if homosexuality is ok or not. Of course religion is mostly to blame for the homo hate. Due to homosexuality being the weak link of evolution... Mostly due too offspring of male and female. Basically seing homosexuality as shameful in terms of their divine solerity.
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There isn't any difference between human and animal instinct when it comes to sex. Not thought is required.
You prove my point. There isn't. In terms of biological nature. But there is something we have that animals simply aren't in yet. They are purely instincts on short life. We are evolved into spreading ideas, what is ok and what is not. There are rules we create. Therefor its both biological and a choice.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Aletheia on February 21, 2015, 05:54:18 PM
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Biologically yes. But we are so much more developed on a mental state that choice is natural for us, aswell as the biological nature. If any animal species where as evolved as us. They too would ask if homosexuality is ok or not. Of course religion is mostly to blame for the homo hate. Due to homosexuality being the weak link of evolution... Mostly due too offspring of male and female. Basically seing homosexuality as shameful in terms of their divine solerity.

Homosexuality is not a weak link of evolution. If that's the case, then ants are the weak link of evolution because only the queen reproduces while all of her daughters never do. The benefit from homosexuality is derived from the fact that it increased social cohesion when humans were still hunters and gathers, and that a nonbreeding couple could assist breeding couples in rearing their young more successfully. (This isn't a far-fetched idea. Female orcas who are too old to breed are invaluable to their pod because they help increase the mortality of infant and juvenile orcas.) Given that these small human tribes were related to one other, these "gay couples" were helping to increase the success of the offspring who had many of the same genes as them. The fact that homosexuality doesn't follow the watered down version of easy-to-understand evolution doesn't mean that how evolution doesn't have a use for it.

Human beings are not the only creature capable of choice. All mammals, reptiles, birds, amphibians, and fish can make a choice. As research continues, it's becoming apparent that many species of invertebrates are capable of choice. The only thing a more expansive intellect has brought to the table for humans is we are able to understand more in-depth what our choices mean and what effects they can have. Choice does not mean we are able to override our instincts with a degree of high success, if at all. 
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Aletheia on February 21, 2015, 05:56:56 PM
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You prove my point. There isn't. In terms of biological nature. But there is something we have that animals simply aren't in yet. They are purely instincts on short life. We are evolved into spreading ideas, what is ok and what is not. There are rules we create. Therefor its both biological and a choice.

Sigh... humans are not the only species capable of spreading ideas either. Please, open a biology book or check a scientific website once in a while.

Once again, because we have ideas and can make choices does not mean we will be successful in overriding the most powerful instincts.

Lastly, choice and ideas cannot make a homosexual person heterosexual. All it can do is give the appearance of success while the person suffers internal strife everyday for the rest of their lives.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Peter23 on February 21, 2015, 06:01:58 PM
Animals uses body language or sounds to communicate in that case. But its not the same as having a coherent language to spread actual ideas to people. Animals chooses what to do with their own life, but they dont bother with nonsensical stuff like "oh who are you having sex with". 'cause ideas as a whole doesn't exist. They just don't care about it. Just as it was with us when we were primates. I mean maybe we were a tiny bit more smarter. But in general. Its sorta mostly the closest thing i can compare us to the animals on a mental state. But then homo sapiens came. Boom.

And thats why we use a computer now.

As for saying homosexuals are a weak link in evolution. In a way they sorta are. I mean sure it was ok at sometime. But... in the case of homo sapiens. The thinking humans, there has to be a period where they thought to themself. Wow how unnatural of them. Having sex for fun, instead of bringing forth a generation.

Thats how the weak link is spotted. They saw that as a nuisance and as a result. Convinced people that it was nothing to collect on. And so the homo hate was borned.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Mermaid on February 21, 2015, 06:21:24 PM
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Biologically yes. But we are so much more developed on a mental state that choice is natural for us, aswell as the biological nature.
How do you know that? Are you sure?

Quote
As for saying homosexuals are a weak link in evolution. In a way they sorta are.
No they aren't.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Aletheia on February 21, 2015, 06:23:50 PM
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Animals uses body language or sounds to communicate in that case. But its not the same as having a coherent language to spread actual ideas to people.

Bees are capable of conveying what type of flower, how far away it is from the hive, and in what direction to the rest of the hive by nothing more than a complicated dance. That is a coherent language that spreads actual ideas. In this case, with great precision.

It has been speculated that dolphins can replay the sounds from their echolation to other dolphins who would receive in their mind's eye an image of what the dolphin is referring to. If they play the entire series of sound, the recipient of the message would receive what is essentially a "video" image. This is a coherent language capable of spreading ideas.

Humans use body language, sounds, and props to create a coherent language and to spread ideas. Because other animals use different techniques does not downplay the fact that ideas are spread from one individual to another.

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Animals chooses what to do with their own life, but they dont bother with nonsensical stuff like "oh who are you having sex with". 'cause ideas as a whole doesn't exist. They just don't care about it. Just as it was with us when we were primates. I mean maybe we were a tiny bit more smarter. But in general. Its sorta mostly the closest thing i can compare us to the animals on a mental state. But then homo sapiens came. Boom.

Animals in close-knit groups care very deeply who is having sex with who. The alpha pair of wolves make it their business to prevent other members of the pack from breeding. Baboons, bonobos, chimpanzees, and gorillas will have sex to gain status while others will disrupt mating to prevent increased status or to safeguard a mate they consider theirs. Even meerkats will chase away lone males who wish to mate with any of the females in the group.

For these animals, the concept of an unwanted or unauthorized breeding is a very well formed idea.

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And thats why we use a computer now.

We are using computers now because our evolution increased our brain size, gave us a varied diet, increased our impulse control, gave us a way to effectively communicate, and most importantly gave us a way to genuinely teach one another rather than rely solely on imitation.


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As for saying homosexuals are a weak link in evolution. In a way they sorta are. I mean sure it was ok at sometime. But... in the case of homo sapiens. The thinking humans, there has to be a period where they thought to themself. Wow how unnatural of them. Having sex for fun, instead of bringing forth a generation.

Yes, I'm sure the Romans and Greeks were shocked to see people having sex for fun instead of bringing forth a generation. :eyeroll:
Many of the Native American tribes had considered homosexuals to be unique and of spiritual importance. Mankind has went through a series of accepting gays and condemning them depending on the culture at a given time.

Evolution keeps traits that are not harmful or that have benefits (no matter how miniscule). Keeping a certain percentage of the population that is gay is helpful to the group. In an enormous society, nonbreeding gay couples can offer homes to countless displaced children via adoption. Once again, gays are helping breeding couples... just as they always have. A weak link is not the same as an evolutionary trait that isn't overtly profound. Left handed individuals are beneficial to a group when they comprise 10% of the population. Too much or too little upsets the benefits of having lefties around.

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Thats how the weak link is spotted. They saw that as a nuisance and as a result. Convinced people that it was nothing to collect on. And so the homo hate was borned.

Homosexual hate was born most likely in societies that didn't have a strong presence of homosexuals. The unfamiliarity of these societies activated another of mankind's instincts - distrust of strangers. From there, ideas were influenced and the hate and distrust of homosexuals was galvanized into law, religion, and culture.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Peter23 on February 21, 2015, 06:32:54 PM
Quote
Animals in close-knit groups care very deeply who is having sex with who. The alpha pair of wolves make it their business to prevent other members of the pack from breeding. Baboons, bonobos, chimpanzees, and gorillas will have sex to gain status while others will disrupt mating to prevent increased status or to safeguard a mate they consider theirs. Even meerkats will chase away lone males who wish to mate with any of the females in the group.

For these animals, the concept of an unwanted or unauthorized breeding is a very well formed idea.
Indeed, incest is bad in that case. Animals are pretty clever when it comes to this. Its purely instinct related. If one breeds with the same kind they basically know the results so they can be pushed away as a way of saying "NO!". But that doesn't mean they actually can share ideas as a thought. Its purely instincts that know something bad will happen if i let this stuff happen. In the same way that some know what food to eat and not to eat.
Quote
We are using computers now because our evolution increased our brain size, gave us a varied diet, increased our impulse control, gave us a way to effectively communicate, and most importantly gave us a way to genuinely teach one another rather than rely solely on imitation.
Precisely. Intellect is what makes us to what we are. Aswell as creating laws and rules in a society, in written tablets, language which cultures have strived upon.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Mermaid on February 21, 2015, 06:35:41 PM
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Indeed, incest is bad in that case. Animals are pretty clever when it comes to this. Its purely instinct related. If one breeds with the same kind they basically know the results so they can be pushed away as a way of saying "NO!". But that doesn't mean they actually can share ideas as a thought. Its purely instincts that know something bad will happen if i let this stuff happen. In the same way that some know what food to eat and not to eat.
But how do you know how animals think? I would disagree that they are not able to reason and emote, and that they operate purely instinct.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Peter23 on February 21, 2015, 06:38:43 PM
That's what i mean. We can't know what animals think because we can't communicate with them in that matter. You can't go to a fox and ask "Do you think homosexuality is ok?" they will just sniff around and that person will just be like, why did i bother.
Its just not in their interest to ask or answer. They communicate in a different way than us, not on spoken language or ideas. But purely on instincts and body language.

So for us it is natural. Hense to why homo sapiens is the name for "wise man"
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Moloth on February 21, 2015, 06:54:37 PM
Peter23, none of that explains why 'its both biological and a choice'...

In what way does a person 'choose' to be gay? yes, humans are more self-aware, have tool and language use and can form abstract thought... but what does that have to do with what a person is innately sexually attracted to?

And, keep in mind, homosexuality is rife in the animal kingdom, too... its not like its unnatural or that only humans do it.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Mermaid on February 21, 2015, 07:01:16 PM
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That's what i mean. We can't know what animals think because we can't communicate with them in that matter. You can't go to a fox and ask "Do you think homosexuality is ok?" they will just sniff around and that person will just be like, why did i bother.
Its just not in their interest to ask or answer. They communicate in a different way than us, not on spoken language or ideas. But purely on instincts and body language.

So for us it is natural. Hense to why homo sapiens is the name for "wise man"
Seriously?
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Aletheia on February 21, 2015, 07:11:05 PM
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Indeed, incest is bad in that case. Animals are pretty clever when it comes to this. Its purely instinct related. If one breeds with the same kind they basically know the results so they can be pushed away as a way of saying "NO!". But that doesn't mean they actually can share ideas as a thought. Its purely instincts that know something bad will happen if i let this stuff happen. In the same way that some know what food to eat and not to eat.Precisely. Intellect is what makes us to what we are. Aswell as creating laws and rules in a society, in written tablets, language which cultures have strived upon.

Sigh... these animals are preventing their members from having sex with animals that are unrelated. This is mainly due to politics within the group and a desire to prevent an unsustainable group population.

Animals do not innately know incest is bad. The cheetahs are so related to each other that tissue from one cheetah can be transplanted into the body of another with no signs of rejection. This is not possible for most other animal groups due to genetic variety. Dogs and cats can and will mate with siblings, mothers, fathers, and so on even if they are raised from birth with them.

Chimpanzees and bonobos are capable of ideas, culture, creativity, figuring out complex problems, and therefore could improve their intellect over time. What keeps eroding their combined intellectual achievements is not a lack of intellect. They lack impulse control and are unable to teach each other directly, and therefore must rely on imitation.

Imagine every generation of humans having to learn on their own. You might see your neighbor come up with a better way of hunting, and decide to do this. However, your offspring sees the same thing and doesn't understand or care. You are unable to teach your offspring directly because you lack the desire and your offspring lacks the interest. Furthermore, your impulses to take the food before someone else does leads to countless squabbles within the group and unnecessary stress. Within a generation or two, the new hunting idea is forgotten and cooperation within the group remains at a standstill. This was how our ancestors were, originally.

Impulse control and the ability to teach others helped to spread ideas more effectively and improve group cooperation. Yes, intellect is important, but these two fundamental elements is what led to the development of that intellect. Do not think that a big brain is all that makes a human being. Plenty of the great apes are able to figure out problems on their own. Their species pales in comparison to ours because they can't share ideas with one another easily and they do not cooperate so readily.

Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Peter23 on February 21, 2015, 07:12:15 PM
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Peter23, none of that explains why 'its both biological and a choice'...

In what way does a person 'choose' to be gay? yes, humans are more self-aware, have tool and language use and can form abstract thought... but what does that have to do with what a person is innately sexually attracted to?

And, keep in mind, homosexuality is rife in the animal kingdom, too... its not like its unnatural or that only humans do it.
Its pretty simple. You are affected by ideas itself. Animals cant spread such things in a mental state in terms of what is right and what is wrong.

However, biologically we are like animals. The question is, should we act upon it?
See thats where we differs. We can think if its ok to do it or not. And its true that its considered unnatural for humans(In terms of what people say in general) and not in animals, simply because we cant know what animals think. (Which is why the popular frase says "Homosexuality is well documented in over 500 species. Homophobia exists in only 1. What seems unnatural now?")
And they are correct :) Because we cant know if animals are or aren't homophobic, only homosexuals. You can't ask them that stuff, only observe.

Like how do we know if animals is homophobic or not? We simply can't Its not in their mind to answer such thing. However... if animals where as evolved as us. Trust me, they'd probably know if they where or weren't.

But to not like homosexuality is not really unnatural, just as its not unnatural to like homosexuality. It depends on what you prefer in general speaking.
Quote
Sigh... these animals are preventing their members from having sex with animals that are unrelated. This is mainly due to politics within the group and a desire to prevent an unsustainable group population.

Animals do not innately know incest is bad. The cheetahs are so related to each other that tissue from one cheetah can be transplanted into the body of another with no signs of rejection. This is not possible for most other animal groups due to genetic variety. Dogs and cats can and will mate with siblings, mothers, fathers, and so on even if they are raised from birth with them.

Chimpanzees and bonobos are capable of ideas, culture, creativity, figuring out complex problems, and therefore could improve their intellect over time. What keeps eroding their combined intellectual achievements is not a lack of intellect. They lack impulse control and are unable to teach each other directly, and therefore must rely on imitation.

Imagine every generation of humans having to learn on their own. You might see your neighbor come up with a better way of hunting, and decide to do this. However, your offspring sees the same thing and doesn't understand or care. You are unable to teach your offspring directly because you lack the desire and your offspring lacks the interest. Furthermore, your impulses to take the food before someone else does leads to countless squabbles within the group and unnecessary stress. Within a generation or two, the new hunting idea is forgotten and cooperation within the group remains at a standstill. This was how our ancestors were, originally.

Impulse control and the ability to teach others helped to spread ideas more effectively and improve group cooperation. Yes, intellect is important, but these two fundamental elements is what led to the development of that intellect. Do not think that a big brain is all that makes a human being. Plenty of the great apes are able to figure out problems on their own. Their species pales in comparison to ours because they can't share ideas with one another easily and they do not cooperate so readily.
I am glad you wrote this. You basically gave reasons to what parents typically teach their offspring. Like how to get food, what do eat. Thats something they learn by observing. In a way teaching works that way, watch and do. I liked reading that. Thanks. Its always nice getting more insight to that sort of thing.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Aletheia on February 21, 2015, 07:21:01 PM
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That's what i mean. We can't know what animals think because we can't communicate with them in that matter. You can't go to a fox and ask "Do you think homosexuality is ok?" they will just sniff around and that person will just be like, why did i bother.
Its just not in their interest to ask or answer. They communicate in a different way than us, not on spoken language or ideas. But purely on instincts and body language.

So for us it is natural. Hense to why homo sapiens is the name for "wise man"

Oh for the love of god that isn't there.

It wouldn't be too much trouble to teach the concept of homosexuality to the great apes in a way they'd understand and then see how they react to the notion.

If you're going to try complex ideas like this, it helps to pick an animal species with the mental capacity to understand symbolism and abstract ideas.

Next you'll be saying humans are special because ants seem indifferent to what color the sky is.

(http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140808184223/bloodbrothersgame/images/c/c7/Implied_facepalm.jpg)
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Peter23 on February 21, 2015, 07:25:26 PM
Well apes are pretty clever. I have honestly not tried to check if some animals can be homophobic or not to be honest. But i honestly don't know if animals really give a shit about sexual orientation.  Which is sorta what humans have the ability to do.

 It just seems like they wouldn't care about it in general, unless they see a sign if someone tries to mount them or something.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Mermaid on February 21, 2015, 07:29:15 PM
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Its pretty simple. You are affected by ideas itself. Animals cant spread such things in a mental state in terms of what is right and what is wrong.

How do you know that?
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Mermaid on February 21, 2015, 07:29:53 PM
Biologically, we are not LIKE animals. Biologically, we ARE animals.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Mermaid on February 21, 2015, 07:30:48 PM
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i honestly don't know
There. That seems about right.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Aletheia on February 21, 2015, 07:33:53 PM
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Its pretty simple. You are affected by ideas itself. Animals cant spread such things in a mental state in terms of what is right and what is wrong.

Chimpanzees do have a concept of what is right and wrong. In an experiment where a chimp had a tray of food and the option to dump the tray of food, it's actions inferred what was on its mind. When a handler moved the tray to another chimp, the chimpanzee did not dump the food. When the other chimp had the ability to pull the tray away from the original chimp, that's when the chimp chose to dump the food. This showed that the chimp didn't consider it "wrong" when the chimp was given the food, but the chimp did consider it "wrong" when the chimp essentially stole the food.

There are plenty of other experiments in other animals demonstrating that animals do think about what is right and wrong. Once again, humans are not the only creatures capable of spreading ideas or having morality.

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However, biologically we are like animals. The question is, should we act upon it?
See thats where we differs. We can think if its ok to do it or not. And its true that its considered unnatural for humans(In terms of what people say in general) and not in animals, simply because we cant know what animals think. (Which is why the popular frase says "Homosexuality is well documented in over 500 species. Homophobia exists in only 1. What seems unnatural now?")
And they are correct :) Because we cant know if animals are or aren't homophobic, only homosexuals. You can't ask them that stuff, only observe.

Given the right experiment, you could ask a chimp if it is homophobic and possibly with dolphins as well.

Other animals can determine if an action is worth the risk. In short, they do ask themselves, should I act upon it? This is especially true when an animal has been hurt by something. They think twice before doing the same thing again.

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Like how do we know if animals is homophobic or not? We simply can't Its not in their mind to answer such thing. However... if animals where as evolved as us. Trust me, they'd probably know if they where or weren't.

But to not like homosexuality is not really unnatural, just as its not unnatural to like homosexuality.

Seriously, try the chimp experiment and test your theory.



Anyway, none of your dialogue explains how homosexuality is a choice.

Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Peter23 on February 21, 2015, 07:36:03 PM
Quote
How do you know that?
Well.. For starters i have not seen an animal society where they communicate and say "Ugly fag". Since they don't ask each if they think homosexuality is right or wrong. Its simply biological. Whether one can be homophobic as in a way of reaction. Who knows. Mostly my conclusion is that animals are simply biological in terms of that. It just doesn't seem they go around thinking about that stuff.  Therefor its biological, and not a choice. Pure instincts.
Quote
Biologically, we are not LIKE animals. Biologically, we ARE animals.

Yes we are. We are not the only species that evolved, but we have evolved from a common ancestor with the chimps. Although they started getting better at using tools, it wasn't until homo sapiens came along that things really started to go on the bright side. Creating a language, spreading ideas, build. We wherent limited by what we could do on instincts. Now we could simply think because we simply are that evolved.

So sharing information and ideas just became natural. So creating rules and laws, society norms became a thing. And that's where we are today.
Quote
Anyway, none of your dialogue explains how homosexuality is a choice.
Yes i did. I said humans can spread ideas to each other. Hense why its a choice. But its also biological in terms of what you are attracted too. So its in a way both.
Animals arent like that, since they cant ask if they think its right or wrong, they are purely on instincts. Which is why its all biological.

Basically it.
Quote
Chimpanzees do have a concept of what is right and wrong. In an experiment where a chimp had a tray of food and the option to dump the tray of food, it's actions inferred what was on its mind. When a handler moved the tray to another chimp, the chimpanzee did not dump the food. When the other chimp had the ability to pull the tray away from the original chimp, that's when the chimp chose to dump the food. This showed that the chimp didn't consider it "wrong" when the chimp was given the food, but the chimp did consider it "wrong" when the chimp essentially stole the food.

There are plenty of other experiments in other animals demonstrating that animals do think about what is right and wrong. Once again, humans are not the only creatures capable of spreading ideas or having morality.
Well that doesn't seem unatural to me. Isnt that what the animal world is like?
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Aletheia on February 21, 2015, 07:51:27 PM
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Well.. For starters i have not seen an animal society where they communicate and say "Ugly fag". Since they don't ask each if they think homosexuality is right or wrong. Its simply biological. Whether one can be homophobic as in a way of reaction. Who knows. Mostly my conclusion is that animals are simply biological in terms of that. It just doesn't seem they go around thinking about that stuff.  Therefor its biological, and not a choice. Pure instincts.
Yes we are. We are not the only species that evolved, but we have evolved from a common ancestor with the chimps. Although they started getting better at using tools, it wasn't until homo sapiens came along that things really started to go on the bright side. Creating a language, spreading ideas, build. We wherent limited by what we could do on instincts. Now we could simply think because we simply are that evolved.

So sharing information and ideas just became natural. So creating rules and laws, society norms became a thing. And that's where we are today.

How do you know what animals say to each other? Dolphins obviously have a lot to say given their vocalizations are extremely diverse. Furthermore, a dolphin's brain is on par with the size and complexity of a human brain. The great apes have a combination of hand and body gestures along with vocalizations. Even dogs are able to convey complex emotions and ideas to other dogs. For instance, when a dog lays on its back and wiggles about, they are usually trying to transfer the scent of something they found interesting to their body. From there, they will share the smell with another dog.

Homo Sapiens was not the only species of human capable of speech or spreading ideas. Even neanderthal (not part of homo sapiens) had clans, rules, and culture. There were possible two other species capable of language given their brain size and similar anatomy to ours which allows for speech.

Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Peter23 on February 21, 2015, 07:57:35 PM
So you're saying you understand what they are talking about. Or do you assume based on their body language and signals they give each other. Is that the same as being clear about ideas as we can share in our world. If that's the case why haven't they built a civilization, why don't they create a language that they can read and speak? What stops them from that?

So how do you know what they think? Unless you actually can just assume from what they do, but not actually gather what they actually think personally. Which means they can't actually influence each other on that scale. Its very flimsy, in the same way you can understand our early ancestors which looked very much like apes. But they wheren't on the developed scale of thinking and spreading ideas through language and tablets, which evolved into what we are. We are the supreme case of that.

Of course its all what we want to be in life. In case of the life of a human. Depending on what type of society you live in.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Aletheia on February 21, 2015, 08:02:30 PM
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Yes i did. I said humans can spread ideas to each other. Hense why its a choice. But its also biological in terms of what you are attracted too. So its in a way both.

Spreading ideas does not imply choice.

Let's test your theory. Make the choice today to alter your sexuality. If you can make such a choice, then choosing to change it again shouldn't be a problem.

However, to really put it to the test, change your sexuality and keep it that way for 6 months. Go dating, have sex (if possible) and be honest with yourself with how you felt.

If the choice is genuine, then you shouldn't have inhibitions and should greatly enjoy sex and the company of your lover as you do in your current orientation.

If it's not genuine, then you will have doubts, feel very uncomfortable, and long for those you found attractive in your previous orientation.

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Animals arent like that, since they cant ask if they think its right or wrong, they are purely on instincts. Which is why its all biological.

How do you know? Even scientists aren't 100% sure.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Peter23 on February 21, 2015, 08:04:18 PM
But why didn't i just bang a guy i felt like. Why did i struggle to do it?...
Thats where ideas come from. But its also a biological case. With animals its just instincts and biology, nothing more :)

Either way, thats the conclusion simply based on facts.
Quote
How do you know? Even scientists aren't 100% sure.
How do you know they aren't homophobic? How do you know what they really think? But they simply can't influence others because they are not developed mentally as we are. Books, litterature. Thats the outcome of something brilliant invention called written and spoken language that people share and understand.

And thats why animals are considered biological. We can because ideas influence us.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Aletheia on February 21, 2015, 08:14:36 PM
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So you're saying you understand what they are talking about. Or do you assume based on their body language and signals they give each other. Is that the same as being clear about ideas as we can share in our world. If that's the case why haven't they built a civilization, why don't they create a language that they can read and speak? What stops them from that?

How do you figure out what people are saying to each other in a language you do not understand? You watch their body language and and signals they give to each other.

Why haven't primitive human societies built a civilization. Why haven't these primitive human societies created a written language? Around the world are isolated tribes of humans who have not followed the status quo while most of the world has advanced around them.

Apparently, being human does not guarantee big, advanced civilizations.

Who's to say that some species of animals do not speak to one another already?

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So how do you know what they think? Unless you actually can just assume from what they do, but not actually gather what they actually think personally. Which means they can't actually influence each other on that scale. Its very flimsy, in the same way you can understand our early ancestors which looked very much like apes. But they wheren't on the developed scale of thinking and spreading ideas through language and tablets, which evolved into what we are. We are the supreme case of that.

Of course its all what we want to be in life. In case of the life of a human. Depending on what type of society you live in.

One human being cannot be sure what exactly another human being is thinking. We cannot experience their thoughts.

Orcas influence each other rather well. Beaching in order to reach seals has spread like wildfire. Furthermore, many cetaceans have what the great apes lack -- the ability to directly teach. Orcas even have different "languages" and have difficulty understanding orcas who speak one of the other languages. The knowledge a matriarch elephant has influences the migrations of elephants. This information is not instinctive and has influenced elephants for countless millennia.

You make the assumption that all evolved creatures will behave as humans do. However, the only intellectual creatures you've ever known has been humans. How other animals use their intellect will be unique to their given environment. Ours was shaped by a constantly changing environment.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Mike Cl on February 21, 2015, 08:15:44 PM
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As for saying homosexuals are a weak link in evolution. In a way they sorta are. I mean sure it was ok at sometime. But... in the case of homo sapiens. The thinking humans, there has to be a period where they thought to themself. Wow how unnatural of them. Having sex for fun, instead of bringing forth a generation.

????? Having sex for fun????????  I can't speak for you (hell, you have a hard time speaking for you), but I have always had sex for fun.  A daughter resulted from one of those fun times, but that was not the goal of sex for me.  It is much more complex than just having fun.  At one point pregnancy for my would have been life threatening.  So I got fixed--hence, procreation was impossible.  Did that stop my fun????  Hardly--increased it. And I do realize that to many religious that is a sin (whatever the fuck that is).  So, how the hell is a homosexual having sex for fun 'unnatural'???!!
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Peter23 on February 21, 2015, 08:18:46 PM
Yeah. Body language work that way. But just because i beat a gay in the street without understanding what he says. I can't spread those ideas of homophobia without using a spoken language or written language that people can understand. I mean maybe if i killed and beat more... But what does that mean??? It means i am beating a bunch of people. They don't know why i'm doing this.

So how can i spread homophobia without language that people can understand?

I wonder.... :) Language creates information? Information creates ideas. Perhaps, perhaps.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Aletheia on February 21, 2015, 08:21:16 PM
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But why didn't i just bang a guy i felt like. Why did i struggle to do it?...
Thats where ideas come from. But its also a biological case. With animals its just instincts and biology, nothing more :)


Nice way to dodge. Ideas do not infer choice.

A heterosexual individual could listen to ideas that mention how great homosexual sex is. This does not mean a heterosexual would derive pleasure from homosexual sex. Yes, their body might derive some pleasure, but their mind simply won't be in it. Nothing can change their innate sexuality. Gay sex would lack the appeal that straight sex does. They would long for a significant other of the opposite sex and feel that a person of the same sex could never be more than a friend.

However, if you'd like to put your theory to the test, change your sexual orientation for 6 months and let us know how it goes.

Until then, anything else you say really won't prove your case. Experimentation is pretty much the only way to prove that sexual orientation is a choice.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Aletheia on February 21, 2015, 08:23:04 PM
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Yeah. Body language work that way. But just because i beat a gay in the street without understanding what he says. I can't spread those ideas of homophobia without using a spoken language or written language that people can understand. I mean maybe if i killed and beat more... But what does that mean??? It means i am beating a bunch of people. They don't know why i'm doing this.

So how can i spread homophobia without language that people can understand?

I wonder.... :) Language creates information? Information creates ideas. Perhaps, perhaps.

Straw man.

I was referring to how do you infer what other species of animals might be "saying" to one another.

Please try to stay on topic.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Solitary on February 21, 2015, 08:23:53 PM
We are just a higher form of animal and have instincts also. Ever see a person go up to a baby and say, "coochy coo?" What is an instinct actually? It's just a word to describe behavior we don't understand. There are many ways to communicate without words.  :fU: See what I mean? If homosexuality is a choice, then so is heterosexuality, do the bigots ever think about that? Is that why they get so upset about it, because they get a tickle seeing the same sex they are attracted to? Sometimes they protest too much.  :eek: :biggrin2: Solitary :butt: OK, just calm down now, it is a female butt.  :lol: :lol:
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Peter23 on February 21, 2015, 08:27:52 PM
Well i think the fact is this. If we where animals back then, then it would all be biological, life would be very different. So now we have ideas we can spread naturally to one another. And choice and biology sorta goes hand in hand in terms of orientation, even though it might go against your own nature that doesn't mean it doesn't have some sort of effect. It depends if you believe it or not. ^^

But it also have a huge deal to do with the abrahamic religions in the case of homosexuality. Its the most successful religions afterall
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Mike Cl on February 21, 2015, 08:43:33 PM
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Well i think the fact is this. If we where animals back then, then it would all be biological, life would be very different. So now we have ideas we can spread naturally to one another. And choice and biology sorta goes hand in hand in terms of orientation, even though it might go against your own nature that doesn't mean it doesn't have some sort of effect. It depends if you believe it or not. ^^

But it also have a huge deal to do with the abrahamic religions in the case of homosexuality. Its the most successful religions afterall
What the hell are you trying to say????  Could you translate what you said above?? 
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: trdsf on February 21, 2015, 08:51:42 PM
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I said humans can spread ideas to each other. Hense why its a choice.

Your direct implication here is that you can decide (or be convinced) to be gay.

So I ask you this: what argument do I need to present to convince you to be gay?  If there is no argument with any chance of success, then in what way is it even partially a choice?

I will grant only that humans can decide, for the most part, how to react to their inner biological nature.  I will not grant that they can alter their inner biological nature.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Aletheia on February 21, 2015, 08:54:33 PM
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Well i think the fact is this. If we where animals back then, then it would all be biological, life would be very different. So now we have ideas we can spread naturally to one another. And choice and biology sorta goes hand in hand in terms of orientation, even though it might go against your own nature that doesn't mean it doesn't have some sort of effect. It depends if you believe it or not. ^^

But it also have a huge deal to do with the abrahamic religions in the case of homosexuality. Its the most successful religions afterall

TRANSLATION:

Because we have ideas we are different from animals and therefore can make a choice about our sexuality because ideas obviously trump instincts.

However this is based on whether you believe this or not.

Homosexuality is a huge deal due to the most successful religions - the abrahamic religions.

Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Solitary on February 21, 2015, 08:57:12 PM
With a name like Peter. I can understand his dilemma.  :winkle:
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Aletheia on February 21, 2015, 09:00:11 PM
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With a name like Peter. I can understand his dilemma.  :winkle:

Play nice Solitary.

Peter's facts might be off, but he has been quite civil and pleasant.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Solitary on February 21, 2015, 09:05:45 PM
 :pai: :pai: :biggrin: :biggrin:
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Moloth on February 21, 2015, 09:25:12 PM
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Its pretty simple. You are affected by ideas itself. Animals cant spread such things in a mental state in terms of what is right and what is wrong.

However, biologically we are like animals. The question is, should we act upon it?
See thats where we differs. We can think if its ok to do it or not. And its true that its considered unnatural for humans(In terms of what people say in general) and not in animals, simply because we cant know what animals think. (Which is why the popular frase says "Homosexuality is well documented in over 500 species. Homophobia exists in only 1. What seems unnatural now?")
And they are correct :) Because we cant know if animals are or aren't homophobic, only homosexuals. You can't ask them that stuff, only observe.

What does 'right and wrong' have to do with homosexuality?
" We can think if its ok to do it or not."
Yes, and look at the hatred, violence and suffering caused by those, who, for SOME REASON (RELIGION, HINT HINT), have 'decided' that it was not okay to do.


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And its true that its considered unnatural for humans(In terms of what people say in general)

that is absolutely the WORST measure of anything that i have ever heard.
There is nothing 'unnatural' about homosexuality in humans. Its always been there. It was not invented or 'decided' upon. Its just as natural an impulse as any other sexual impulse.
Consensus does not make reality. Just because most people thought slavery was okay did not make it moral, even at the time.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: aitm on February 21, 2015, 09:35:36 PM
Peter 2:3
This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:

2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Moloth on February 23, 2015, 02:21:45 PM
wait, can we ban aitm for proselytizing and bible-quoting????

(i keed, i keed, <3 u aitm)
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Aletheia on February 23, 2015, 09:44:15 PM
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wait, can we ban aitm for proselytizing and bible-quoting????

(i keed, i keed, <3 u aitm)


Well, I guess I won't be needing this. The deposits on these things are outrageous.

(http://previewcf.turbosquid.com/Preview/2014/07/08__09_26_12/Catapult0000.jpg14cb63b7-1b28-443b-b4c7-2ef7aacd4738Large.jpg)
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Moloth on February 23, 2015, 10:08:02 PM
touche, with a trebuchet.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: winterland78 on March 05, 2015, 09:03:59 PM
Hello. But on the contrary, homosexuality has been condemned by multiple people of different religions alike. By the responses here, it seems like the atheist religion believes that homosexuality is not a choice. I respect your beliefs and religious opinions, but enough biblical research and scientific evidence has been gathered to indeed conclude that homosexuality is a conscious choice, stemming from people who also drink, commit robbery, and abuse others. It's just the facts.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: stromboli on March 05, 2015, 09:29:11 PM
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Hello. But on the contrary, homosexuality has been condemned by multiple people of different religions alike. By the responses here, it seems like the atheist religion believes that homosexuality is not a choice. I respect your beliefs and religious opinions, but enough biblical research and scientific evidence has been gathered to indeed conclude that homosexuality is a conscious choice, stemming from people who also drink, commit robbery, and abuse others. It's just the facts.

The bible is a work of fiction. you need to provide evidence to back your statement about science

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/23/homosexuality--choice-born-science_n_2003361.html

Quote
We know, from many twin and adoption studies, that sexual preference has a genetic component.

A gay man is more likely than a straight man to have a (biological) gay brother; lesbians are more likely than straight women to have gay sisters.

In 1993, a study published in the journal Science showed that families with two homosexual brothers were very likely to have certain genetic markers on a region of the X chromosome known as Xq28. This led to media headlines about the possibility of the existence of a “gay gene” and discussions about the ethics of aborting a “gay” fetus.

Now please show us your scientific evidence to the contrary.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Munch on March 05, 2015, 09:32:36 PM
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Hello. But on the contrary, homosexuality has been condemned by multiple people of different religions alike. By the responses here, it seems like the atheist religion believes that homosexuality is not a choice. I respect your beliefs and religious opinions, but enough biblical research and scientific evidence has been gathered to indeed conclude that homosexuality is a conscious choice, stemming from people who also drink, commit robbery, and abuse others. It's just the facts.

And to that I say.

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-XDX9ia9_jXY/UmOSwvwtEBI/AAAAAAAAi5Y/f2kP-Ora7R0/s400/GIF-shower-kissing-naked-sex-gay-hung-smooth-hairy-hot-gay-sucking-cum-shot-jerking-fucking-bareback-sean-cody-muscel-jocks-bears-019.gif)
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: winterland78 on March 05, 2015, 09:39:14 PM
Hello. I wonder what proof you can show me that proves The Holy Bible is a work of fiction. I do not wish to disrespect any followers of the atheism religion, and I wish for this to be a respectful inter-faith dialogue. I do question that 'source' you quoted there. Not only does The Holy Bible condemn homosexuality decisively, but there have been countless hard-working scientific studies proving how homosexuality is negative to the human experience. They are almost limitless (you know what I mean).

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/gay-people-more-likely-to-have-mental-health-problems-survey-says-9709761.html

Thanks everybody, and I'd appreciate it if you could provide some references or citations from any atheism religious holy texts that may exist that you guys use as a source of theological guidance.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Munch on March 05, 2015, 09:44:40 PM
We use a remarkable thing known as a brain.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/31/kathleen-taylor-religious-fundamentalism-mental-illness_n_3365896.html

See those of us who grew out of believing in make believe fantasy stories are those who went on to gain scientific degrees and medical doctorates.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: stromboli on March 05, 2015, 09:47:23 PM
Your link talks about mental health, which is highly likely considering that gays are one of the most persecuted groups, by people like you. It has nothing to do with gay being a choice. Read the link I gave you in the other thread about 312 reasons Christianity is false.
http://www.kyroot.com/

Educate yourself. Its not our job to make you smarter.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Munch on March 05, 2015, 09:54:41 PM
One of the main reason for gay people struggling with their sexual identity is because of you religious cunts making them live a lie or beaten for trying to be themselves.

Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: winterland78 on March 05, 2015, 10:03:50 PM
Hello. I disagree with your assertion. Plenty of good Christians have gone on to excel and pave the way for achievements in science. The health industry and the area of physics come to mind as an area historically and even currently dominated by Christians. Non-Christian believers - even though we do not have constant contact with them - also have contributed great work and sacrifice to those fields.

I will further read the site you linked me to in the previous thread and this one - as per your request - but I do not agree with it's claims and they provide no evidence.

As for the homosexuality angle, once again, this is a crystal clear matter of scripture, ethics, morality, and the directives of God. Please do not be shy to provide any citations of a holy text that the atheism religion may have. I am very eager to talk with you and learn about your beliefs. Thanks everybody.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Munch on March 05, 2015, 10:09:29 PM
Sweetheart, I think you stopped processing cognitive functionality years ago, there's nothing anyone can help you with here in terms of education anymore.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: stromboli on March 05, 2015, 10:11:30 PM
https://danielmiessler.com/writing/bible_fiction/

Quote
The similarities between the stories and characters in the Bible and those from previous mythologies are both undeniable and well-documented. It is only due to extreme the extreme religious bias that pervades our world today that people rarely get exposed to this information.

In this short piece I’ll attempt to show blatant similarities with regard to two of the most important Biblical narratives: the Genesis story and the character of Jesus Christ.

The Book of Genesis’s Flood Story Mirrors The Epic Of Gilgamesh From Hundreds Of Years Earlier

Here are a number of elements that both Gilgamesh and the flood story in Genesis share:

God decided to send a worldwide flood. This would drown men, women, children, babies and infants, as well as eliminate all of the land animals and birds.
God knew of one righteous man, Ut-Napishtim or Noah.
God ordered the hero to build a multi-story wooden ark (called a chest or box in the original Hebrew), and the hero initially complained about the assignment to build the boat.
The arc would have many compartments, a single door, be sealed with pitch and would house one of every animal species.
A great rain covered the land with water.
The arc landed on a mountain in the Middle East.
The first two birds returned to the ark. The third bird apparently found dry land because it did not return.
The hero and his family left the ark, ritually killed an animal, offered it as a sacrifice.
The Babylonian gods seemed genuinely sorry for the genocide that they had created. The God of Noah appears to have regretted his actions as well, because he promised never to do it again.
Keep in mind the level of detail in these similarities. It’s not a matter of just a flood, but specific details: three birds sent out, resisting the call to build the arc, and a single man being chosen by God to build the arc. Then consider that the first story (Gilgamesh) came from Babylon — hundreds of years before the Bible was even written.

Do you honestly think, based on the similarities above, that those who wrote the Genesis story had not heard the Gilgamesh story? And if they had heard it, and they were simply rehashing an old, very popular tale, what does that say about the Bible?

Jesus’s Story Is An Obvious Rehashing Of Numerous Previous Characters

Perhaps even more compelling is the story of Christ himself. As it turns out it’s not even remotely original. It is instead nothing more than a collection of bits and pieces from dozens of other stories that came long before. Here are some examples.

Asklepios healed the sick, raised the dead, and was known as the savior and redeemer.
Hercules was born of a divine father and mortal mother and was known as the savior of the world. Prophets foretold his birth and claimed he would be a king, which started a search by a leader who wanted to kill him. He walked on water and told his mother, “Don’t cry, I’m going to heaven.” when he died. As he passed he said, “It is finished.“
Dionysus was literally the “Son of God”, was born of a virgin mother, and was commonly depicted riding a donkey. He healed the sick and turned water to wine. He was killed but was resurrected and became immortal. His greatest accomplishment was his own death, which delivers humanity itself.
Osiris did the same things. He was born of a virgin, was considered the first true king of the people, and when he died he rose from the grave and went to heaven.
Osiris’s son, Horus, was known as the “light of the world”, “The good shepherd”, and “the lamb”. He was also referred to as, “The way, the truth, and the life.” His symbol was a cross.
Mithra‘s birthday was celebrated on the 25th of December, his birth was witnessed by local shepherds who brought him gifts, had 12 disciples, and when he was done on earth he had a final meal before going up to heaven. On judgment day he’ll return to pass judgment on the living and the dead. The good will go to heaven, and the evil will die in a giant fire. His holiday is on Sunday (he’s the Sun God). His followers called themselves “brothers”, and their leaders “fathers”. They had baptism and a meal ritual where symbolic flesh and blood were eaten. Heaven was in the sky, and hell was below with demons and sinners.
Krishna had a miraculous conception that wise men were able to come to because they were guided by a star. After he was born an area ruler tried to have him found and killed. His parents were warned by a divine messenger, however, and they escaped and was met by shepherds. The boy grew up to be the mediator between God and man.
Buddha‘s mother was told by an angel that she’d give birth to a holy child destined to be a savior. As a child he teaches the priests in his temple about religion while his parents look for him. He starts his religious career at roughly 30 years of age and is said to have spoken to 12 disciples on his deathbed. One of the disciples is his favorite, and another is a traitor. He and his disciples abstain from wealth and travel around speaking in parables and metaphors. He called himself “the son of man” and was referred to as, “prophet”, “master”, and “Lord”. He healed the sick, cured the blind and deaf, and he walked on water. One of his disciples tried to walk on water as well but sunk because his faith wasn’t strong enough.
Apollonius of Tyana (a contemporary of Jesus) performed countless miracles (healing sick and crippled, restored sight, casted out demons, etc.) His birth was of a virgin, foretold by an angel. He knew scripture really well as a child. He was crucified, rose from the dead and appeared to his disciples to prove his power before going to heaven to sit at the right hand of the father. He was known as, “The Son of God”.
The problem, of course, is that these previous narratives existed hundreds to thousands of years before Jesus did.


Logic Sets In

Many are familiar with Occam’s Razor, which states that, all things being equal, one should not seek complex explanations when more simple ones are available. No one disputes that these other stories predate the Judeo-Christian Bible, so we really only have two options:

The religious explanation is that while the other stories were very much the same as those in the Bible, they are all false. But when they occur in the Bible (despite it being much the same content), this time the stories are true. One explanation of the resemblances to the earlier myths is that Satan created them to lead people astray from the true Messiah that would come much later. So essentially, an ultra-powerful and evil being (Created by God) influenced humanity to create deceptive stories — thousands of years before the real version — so that people wouldn’t believe the real thing when they saw it.
The alternative explanation is that the nature of storytelling during the period was such that central themes propagated through time. This combined with the natural tendency to have certain repeating elements in human stories, and the fact that the Bible stories came after the other ones, explains the similarities to previous myths. And since the stories of worldwide floods, virgin births, and people rising from the dead that the Bible is based on were false to begin with (which everyone agrees on) — they are also false in the Bible. In short, the Bible is simply another iteration of the same themes that came long before it.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: trdsf on March 06, 2015, 08:02:55 PM
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Hello. But on the contrary, homosexuality has been condemned by multiple people of different religions alike. By the responses here, it seems like the atheist religion believes that homosexuality is not a choice. I respect your beliefs and religious opinions, but enough biblical research and scientific evidence has been gathered to indeed conclude that homosexuality is a conscious choice, stemming from people who also drink, commit robbery, and abuse others. It's just the facts.

Number of flaws here.

One: Atheism is not a religion, unless you count not collecting stamps as a hobby or abstinence as a sexual position.

Two: 'Belief' has nothing to to with thinking that homosexuality isn't a choice.  The preponderance of genetic research shows a strong genetic component.

Three: If you're equating homosexuality with alcoholism and criminal behavior, we are going to have a very serious problem right now.  You need to either demonstrate that I am an alcoholic and a thief and a physical abuser, or you need to apologize to me right now for making that comparison.  Otherwise, well, since you're religious, and Catholic priests are religious, I can just assume that you're a pedophile.  It's the same thing, isn't it?
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Munch on March 06, 2015, 08:19:38 PM
He got given the Harley hammer now, so he won't be making anymore comparisons he thinks go together
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Aletheia on March 06, 2015, 10:51:48 PM
*Sweeps away the dirt*

Who left the door open? Anything and anybody can just show up and dirty up the place.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: trdsf on March 07, 2015, 12:32:41 AM
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He got given the Harley hammer now, so he won't be making anymore comparisons he thinks go together
Yeah, I didn't spot that until after I'd posted.  Shame.  I'd've liked to see his explanation about how he doesn't need to apologize for following the lord's word... or the voices in his head, same thing.  And then I would've taken great pleasure in referring to him as "pedoland7&8" with a clear conscience.  I mean, he had been warned what the consequence of drawing unwarranted conclusions would be...

But I think I can live with the disappointment of him not being here anymore.  :)
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Aletheia on March 14, 2015, 11:23:16 AM
All too often theists, Christians especially, want to focus on the issue of homosexuality being a choice. If it was a choice, then Christians could feel righteous in knowing that homosexuals are going to hell. However, if homosexuality is not a choice, then they are left with cognitive dissonance of an all-loving god that specifically created homosexuals that never had a chance to make it to heaven.

It's just shitty that they'd rather change the facts about an entire group of people rather than accept the possibility that their god is not a purely good god.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Mermaid on March 14, 2015, 12:26:44 PM
It's also shitty that people try to control the lives of other people when it has nothing to do with them.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Solitary on March 14, 2015, 07:08:00 PM
How is it that all Christians know what God wants? Do they ever read a bible other than in bible class? Why do they believe the bible is Gods word when it is so childish and silly, worse than any nursery story for little children? Idiots!  :wall: :butt: :kidra: :biggrin2: Solitary 
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: SGOS on March 14, 2015, 09:50:24 PM
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How is it that all Christians know what God wants? Do they ever read a bible other than in bible class? Why do they believe the bible is Gods word when it is so childish and silly, worse than any nursery story for little children? Idiots!  :wall: :butt: :kidra: :biggrin2: Solitary 
The big thing in the fundamentalist movement these days is the thing about having a personal relationship with Jesus, so you don't really have to read the Bible.  You've got this personal relationship, so you simply ask Jesus (God) what he wants.  Then you sit back and imagine a suitable answer, and there you are.  You know what God wants.

Near the end of my days in Alcoholics Anonymous, we were on the topic of friends at a meeting, and this one guy said his best friend was Jesus.  Why Jesus, and not God?  I've always wondered, but I digress.  I imagine he and Jesus with their arms on each other's shoulder going for a beer (or getting a coffee since it was in AA).  You sit there and ask Jesus what he wants.  I mean that's like right from the horse's mouth.  How you gonna argue with that?

It might be totally imaginary, but it is a colorful description of their personal relationship, and somehow they believe it.  How do they do it?  No matter how hard I try, I can't make myself believe that I'm having daily sex with Zooey Deschanel, or even the lady across the street.  If I could actually believe it, I'd be pleased.  I might even go door to door and tell people about it.

Another guy once said to me, "I walk with Jesus.  Do you walk with Jesus?"  WTF??

Catholics just go to church and the Priest speaks for God, but Protestants have their own personal relationship.  They cut out the middle man and imagine they talk to Jesus.  Hell, priests don't even make that claim.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Munch on March 14, 2015, 10:02:33 PM
Jesus exists as nothing more then a channel for Christians to claim he is a mortal avatar of god, so his words are gods words spoken on the same level as humans.
Problem with their logic in this (same logic that has a talking snake) is this means jesus is either nothing but a puppet for god to control, or that he has no individuality outside of god. The assumption seems to be the apple not falling far from the tree, which has always been bullshit, when you think about those horror stories of children who were abused by their psychotic parents, yet grew up to be normal people, like the children of the wests.

Anyway, whatever bullshit contradictions are in the bible, all it really comes down to are a bunch of sheep being instructed how to live and what to believe by someone who holds it up and focuses on portions of the bible, expanding upon them in great detail to make those passages seem like the be all and end all, while missing out many other passages they don't want to use for fear of it showing their real agenda.

The biggest question though I've always, Always wondered, if given this fact about how religions work, why do so many mainstream ones have this homophobic stance, be is all the forms of christianity, Islam, Mormon, Scientology, all of them have homophobic followings behind them. Its not like these people aren't just naturally bigoted, it must be god telling them to be, right?
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: kilodelta on March 23, 2015, 12:04:21 AM
Trevor Moore has it right.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvBbRazeFd0[/youtube]

Note: Last Trevor Moore video of the evening.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Ace101 on March 31, 2015, 03:28:28 AM
"Homosexuality is a choice" is just rhetoric meant to obfuscate the discussions.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: trdsf on March 31, 2015, 11:48:19 AM
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"Homosexuality is a choice" is just rhetoric meant to obfuscate the discussions.
Do you have an actual point to make?  Or are you just going to randomly throw a phrase in here?  And what discussion is it obfuscating?

It is clearly not empty language, it is the central lie used by anti-gay bigots to justify their bigotry, since apparently they've twigged onto the fact that if there's a strong genetic/biological component to it, they can't really justify publicly hating gays for being gay -- it'd be like hating an African-American for being black.

It's also the lie they use to justify their discredited 'conversion therapy' -- if it's genetic/biological, conversion therapy is worse than discredited, it's completely meaningless.

By the bye, 'rhetoric' is the study of persuasive communication.  It is often -- and, I think, mistakenly -- used to denote something as empty verbiage, but that is not actually what rhetoric is.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Solitary on April 12, 2015, 03:17:17 PM
You just obfuscated me!  :naughty: :biggrin2:
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: wbuentello on June 27, 2015, 07:28:02 PM
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Being a choice is irrelevant.  It's just another word game that bible thumpers play to create an issue out of a non issue.  We should be able to have sex with any consensual partner we want to, no point discussing it further with someone who believes in magic.

I completely agree w/ you. That being said I've had this argument with homophobes before. I always ask them if they choose everyday whether or not they are gonna be attracted to another guy (they are always guys). If its a choice then they must be making a conscious choice every day not to be gay and if this is the case then they must be gay in the first place. Ive never been attracted to a guy and so Ive never had the opportunity to make that choice, ergo they must be gay but in denial of it. Usually they don't want to talk to me any more, which is fine by me.

I will also say that I've heard this argument from some very non-religious people too. It is usually accompanied by the argument that since its a choice then they have chosen that lifestyle and shouldn't be whining about the consequences. But you are absolutely right, who the fuck cares.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Baruch on July 07, 2015, 08:18:09 PM
If it is homophobia ... then it is a mental condition ... common among the populace or not.  No need to respect folks who are afraid of water ... in the sense that we have to argue with them whether or not water is out to get them nor not.  On homosexuality I have little experience, never been attracted to any guys, and had a guy attracted to me only only two occasions ... over a long life.  Or maybe I am just ugly ;-)
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: godlessheathen on August 25, 2015, 09:45:33 AM
Isn't "homosexuality a choice" the ultimate "strawman" argument?

A person who is anti-homosexual claims that "gay is bad" - and uses "choice" as some per-determined point of proof that "gay is bad".

Where does it say in the rulebook, that choosing something makes it bad?

Uh - it doesn't?

So what difference does it make?



Think of this --- a couple of generations ago all marriages were arranged by the parents - and anyone who went outside the system and "chose" a mate was most likely disowned by the family.

Sound familiar?

What it all boils down to - is the anti-gay crowd's opinion is based on one thing - their own arbitrary standards.

There's no real logic involved.

They simply want things run, their way.






Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: peacewithoutgod on September 10, 2015, 07:15:51 PM
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If it is homophobia ... then it is a mental condition ... common among the populace or not.  No need to respect folks who are afraid of water ... in the sense that we have to argue with them whether or not water is out to get them nor not.  On homosexuality I have little experience, never been attracted to any guys, and had a guy attracted to me only only two occasions ... over a long life.  Or maybe I am just ugly ;-)

No need to respect anybody with a mental condition? Have you any idea how many millions of people in your country alone suffer from one form or other of a mental condition? Each of them not easily understood by others, even (and I suspect especially) those who have other mental conditions, but not that one! Your own online behavior is no dubious evidence that you rank among this lot, and if you think you deserve to be respected, then you had better learn to show respect for others, phobic or not!
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: trdsf on September 10, 2015, 09:50:05 PM
Homophobia is a choice, and/or a learned behavior.  Homosexuality is not.  Simple as that.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: stromboli on September 10, 2015, 09:56:08 PM
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Homophobia is a choice, and/or a learned behavior.  Homosexuality is not.  Simple as that.

There you go clarifying shit. Shame on you.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: trdsf on September 10, 2015, 10:21:10 PM
Silly me, talking sense on this planet.  :D
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: stromboli on September 10, 2015, 10:29:23 PM
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Silly me, talking sense on this planet.  :D

Or to quote what was once said to me- "you talka sense? You no come here no more!"
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Baruch on September 11, 2015, 07:15:34 AM
Philias and phobias are not choices ... acting on them are.  But then I thought I was talking with adults ;-)  Homoeroticism and heteroeroticsm are not choices, precisely because they are philias.  Wait, I just realized I am late ... to the consciousness raising meeting of people who oppress those who fear Friday 13.  That is a named phobia BTW.

I have a fear of heights.  I didn't go to school to learn it.  By respect ... I mean ... that if I am in a second floor of a building, and I see the room spinning as a collapse to the floor ... nobody need respect my subjective illusion (not everything subjective is an illusion) that the building is rotating around me, not the other way around.  I am also not saying, that homophobia justifies oppressing gay people, anymore than a similar fear, justifies oppressing black cats.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Munch on September 11, 2015, 07:34:45 AM
I have often wondered on if the phobia of homophobes is that, a phobia, or an instilled mental block brought on by the same indoctrinated thoughts religion pushes on them. Mental conditioning is a strong part of it I believe, if it makes it a phobia or not is debatable, but I'm convinced they are not scared so much as ignorant and just plain bigoted because they think its acceptable to be so.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: TomFoolery on September 11, 2015, 09:06:54 AM
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I have often wondered on if the phobia of homophobes is that, a phobia, or an instilled mental block brought on by the same indoctrinated thoughts religion pushes on them. Mental conditioning is a strong part of it I believe, if it makes it a phobia or not is debatable, but I'm convinced they are not scared so much as ignorant and just plain bigoted because they think its acceptable to be so.

I feel like it has to be learned. Most kids are pretty open to the idea. My sister said my nephew went to an engagement party for two of her gay friends from work a few years ago and my nephew was 5 and accepted the idea that two men were getting married about as easily as one who wasn't conditioned to think it was disgusting could: mostly that he was bored, wanted to go home and watch Thomas the Train, and why isn't there any cake? The fact that it was "two boys" never even registered in his mind.

Even Christian bloggers Sam and Nia tried to record their five year old giving her opinions on gay marriage after it became legal in June and she's being coached what to say. They took the video down, but they're off camera telling her same-sex marriage is wrong after she says gay people should be able to marry “if they want to.”
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: trdsf on September 11, 2015, 06:40:23 PM
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I have often wondered on if the phobia of homophobes is that, a phobia, or an instilled mental block brought on by the same indoctrinated thoughts religion pushes on them. Mental conditioning is a strong part of it I believe, if it makes it a phobia or not is debatable, but I'm convinced they are not scared so much as ignorant and just plain bigoted because they think its acceptable to be so.
I'm reasonably sure it's a learned behavior; I strongly doubt that there's a genetic component to it, as there is homosexuality.  Otherwise it would cut across all lines and be evident in the animal kingdom as homosexuality does, rather than being concentrated among humans who have a religious objection to it.  To the best of my knowledge, there's no equivalent to gay-bashing anywhere in the animal kingdom, even though there is extensive evidence of homosexual activity and behavior.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: stromboli on September 11, 2015, 06:41:44 PM
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I'm reasonably sure it's a learned behavior; I strongly doubt that there's a genetic component to it, as there is homosexuality.  Otherwise it would cut across all lines and be evident in the animal kingdom as homosexuality does, rather than being concentrated among humans who have a religious objection to it.  To the best of my knowledge, there's no equivalent to gay-bashing anywhere in the animal kingdom, even though there is extensive evidence of homosexual activity and behavior.

I agree. Learned behavior.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: mauricio on November 18, 2015, 04:14:37 PM
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Being a choice is irrelevant.  It's just another word game that bible thumpers play to create an issue out of a non issue.  We should be able to have sex with any consensual partner we want to, no point discussing it further with someone who believes in magic.

The same goes to for liberals spouting wrong/unfounded info on sexuality due to trying to counter the "it's not natural argument". For example the talk of a gay gene or a female mind in a male body or viceversa. Both are very inaccurate statements and trying to naturalize something to counter the conservative appeal to nature which already is fallacious on itself is pretty retarded.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: trdsf on November 19, 2015, 08:28:38 PM
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The same goes to for liberals spouting wrong/unfounded info on sexuality due to trying to counter the "it's not natural argument". For example the talk of a gay gene or a female mind in a male body or viceversa. Both are very inaccurate statements and trying to naturalize something to counter the conservative appeal to nature which already is fallacious on itself is pretty retarded.
This is not the same.  It is possible to find genetic markers that strongly correlate with homosexuality and imply a connection, and a few physiological markers have already been found that are correlative (not causative) indicating there is something genetic involved at some level.  It is also possible to counter the "it's not natural" argument by finding examples in nature (which has been done repeatedly).

The (typically) conservative "it's a choice" argument is simply a value judgment made by those who wish to be judgmental.  It makes no testable hypothesis; it is made simply to provide one desperate and terrifically weak excuse to be a bigot.

Why you conflate liberalism with scientific inquiry I don't know, but I thank you for the compliment -- despite your attempt to cast aspersions.  In any case, reference to a theoretical'gay gene' at least provides something that can be tested, and there is already considerable evidence for a significant genetic component, and that evidence has been piling up over the last 20 years with no significant contradictory research.  Besides, 'gay gene' is generally understood to mean a series of genetic markers that play a role in sexual identity, not a single site on one's DNA that makes an absolute biochemical decision on the bearer's behalf.

I'm not going to get into the problem of mind; too many variables, and I freely admit that I rapidly get lost between what's philosophy and what's physiology there.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: mauricio on November 19, 2015, 10:35:25 PM
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This is not the same.  It is possible to find genetic markers that strongly correlate with homosexuality and imply a connection, and a few physiological markers have already been found that are correlative (not causative) indicating there is something genetic involved at some level.  It is also possible to counter the "it's not natural" argument by finding examples in nature (which has been done repeatedly).

The (typically) conservative "it's a choice" argument is simply a value judgment made by those who wish to be judgmental.  It makes no testable hypothesis; it is made simply to provide one desperate and terrifically weak excuse to be a bigot.

Why you conflate liberalism with scientific inquiry I don't know, but I thank you for the compliment -- despite your attempt to cast aspersions.  In any case, reference to a theoretical'gay gene' at least provides something that can be tested, and there is already considerable evidence for a significant genetic component, and that evidence has been piling up over the last 20 years with no significant contradictory research.  Besides, 'gay gene' is generally understood to mean a series of genetic markers that play a role in sexual identity, not a single site on one's DNA that makes an absolute biochemical decision on the bearer's behalf.

I'm not going to get into the problem of mind; too many variables, and I freely admit that I rapidly get lost between what's philosophy and what's physiology there.

I meant liberal in the watered down sense of US politics. The thing is there is no such thing as a gay gene and no it is not just a set of genetic structures that cause homosexuality either, some of the most recent discoveries point to epigenetics, which is by definition something beyond the scope of the genetic influence. You are correct in pointing out those correlations but there's something that happens during fetal development that actives and deactivates certain genes, this type of phenomena are environmental and they are called epigenetic which means homesexuality may "arise from nongenetic influences on gene expression." You are pretty much correct in your interpretation of the vague concept "gay gene", but it is still a inaccurate statement which I have seen used terribly.

My main point was that I have seen tons of ''liberals'' many of them atheists using wrong/unfounded rhetoric to counter the appeal to nature that conservatives make which is pointless since the appeal to nature is fallacious in and of itself because natural does not necessarily mean ''good, correct or what we ought to do" I have to facepalm terrible at the pseudoscientific rhetorical mumbo jumbo some of them make up to try to naturalize in order to morally justify homsexuality or trans-sexuality which is completely unnecessary. Because even if it's natural or unnatural, it does not say shit about whether the act is ethical or not, that depends more on the actual effects of the action. If someone chooses to have gay sex as long as he's not infringing the auto-determination of someone then there's nothing ethically wrong about it.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: SoldierofFortune on November 19, 2015, 11:22:36 PM
No, homosexuality is not a choice. It's an inherited character...

For instance, i feel ''man'' and i like woman; I didn't choose to be a man. It comes by born...
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: trdsf on November 20, 2015, 02:18:20 PM
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I meant liberal in the watered down sense of US politics. The thing is there is no such thing as a gay gene and no it is not just a set of genetic structures that cause homosexuality either, some of the most recent discoveries point to epigenetics, which is by definition something beyond the scope of the genetic influence. You are correct in pointing out those correlations but there's something that happens during fetal development that actives and deactivates certain genes, this type of phenomena are environmental and they are called epigenetic which means homesexuality may "arise from nongenetic influences on gene expression." You are pretty much correct in your interpretation of the vague concept "gay gene", but it is still a inaccurate statement which I have seen used terribly.

My main point was that I have seen tons of ''liberals'' many of them atheists using wrong/unfounded rhetoric to counter the appeal to nature that conservatives make which is pointless since the appeal to nature is fallacious in and of itself because natural does not necessarily mean ''good, correct or what we ought to do" I have to facepalm terrible at the pseudoscientific rhetorical mumbo jumbo some of them make up to try to naturalize in order to morally justify homsexuality or trans-sexuality which is completely unnecessary. Because even if it's natural or unnatural, it does not say shit about whether the act is ethical or not, that depends more on the actual effects of the action. If someone chooses to have gay sex as long as he's not infringing the auto-determination of someone then there's nothing ethically wrong about it.

The problem is more in that the argument being countered is presented as an article of faith (funny that), and only a short, sound-bitey thing like 'gay gene' has a chance of breaking a few chips off brain that's determined to assert that homosexuality is a choice.

Which means the problem isn't the argument -- the problem is education.  And the reality of the situation isn't as simple as choice/genetics.  In the words of Facebook's relationship choices, "it's complicated".  Unfortunately, someone who accepts a simple "it's a choice" as their final argument does not, generally speaking, deal well with 'complicated', so it needs to be oversimplified to have any hope of making any headway at all.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: widdershins on December 04, 2015, 04:09:02 PM
It is, of course, a misconception to assume "Since I can do it, everyone can do it".  My personal experience, however, is valid for determining whether homosexuality is or is not a choice because for me, it is not.  I am heterosexual and am simply not capable of being attracted to men.  In this case the thought process is "If I can't make that choice, not everyone can make that choice.", which is a valid conclusion as it isn't all-inclusive.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: stromboli on December 04, 2015, 05:28:54 PM
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Which means the problem isn't the argument -- the problem is education.  And the reality of the situation isn't as simple as choice/genetics.  In the words of Facebook's relationship choices, "it's complicated".  Unfortunately, someone who accepts a simple "it's a choice" as their final argument does not, generally speaking, deal well with 'complicated', so it needs to be oversimplified to have any hope of making any headway at all.

Been spending the last few days with my friend getting his shit together after being first robbed and beaten and then having his car stolen. Got his car cleaned out of the dope kit and mass of paraphenalia they left behind. Helped him out with a new cell phone to replace the one that was smashed. Tell you one thing for sure- gay isn't learned behavior. He and I together are complete polar opposites, me a fairly heavyset bearded man in jeans and a hoodie, him nattily dressed with an impeccable holiday motif and matching jewelry (yes, I'm serious). Quite a pair at Walgreens when we went to pick up his meds.

You can't spend time with a gay man and come back with the conclusion it is learned behavior. Everything about my friend speaks to innate behavior, nothing that is an affectation but naturally derived from his sexuality. I love Calvin like a brother, and he assures me the feeling is mutual. But honestly we are as different as two people can be, both physically and every other way.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Jannabear on January 09, 2016, 02:30:17 AM
If it were a choice then what would be the motivation? There are many plausible biological causes to why people are gay, typically involving things that happen when you're developing in the womb, hormonal imbalances, defects, etc. If it were a choice to be gay then I would probably not be pansexual, because It confuses the fuck out of most people and can cause me to get treated like shit, I know it's not a choice because it's not something I just decided on, saying it's a choice would be akin to creationists who say you subconsciously worship the devil.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Baruch on January 09, 2016, 01:00:01 PM
I am not picking on any minority by saying this ... but no regular person volunteers to be a minority in any society, particularly a despised minority.  I am not saying that being conformist is all peaches and cream either.  Some people's deviation is visible (Black skin etc), for many it is invisible as long as it is unexpressed.  If one can't even express who you are, even in private, even all alone ... then you have internalized that oppression.  At minimum, everyone, even people who "do" roadkill animals ... should admit to themselves who and what they are ... non-prejudicial.  Anything less is neurotic.  The question remains, should one act on this.  If one can then be honest with oneself ... then finding a friend that you can discuss the most intimate things in private with them ... is of benefit.  Depending on who and what you are, and depending on your society, you may never be able to opening admit who and what you are ... except maybe on the anonymity of the Internet.  That doesn't mean that people will be comfortable with your coming out of the closet ... that depends on the specific audience.  One thing I can say is, that no matter who or what you are ... you are not alone.  And hopefully you will find a sympathetic ear.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: widdershins on February 01, 2016, 05:35:41 PM
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...no regular person volunteers to be a minority in any society, particularly a despised minority...
A very good point, but not entirely accurate.  I mean, I see where you're going with it and you are very right in that context.  But in a literal sense it isn't true as pretty much every fundamentalist not only chooses to be, but actually relishes being a despised minority, even when they're not actually a despised minority.  They at least have to pretend that they're a despised minority (the persecution complex) and some of them go out of their way to make themselves obviously different so that it's easier to identify who one needs to despise.

Not that any of that really has any relevance whatsoever to what you were actually saying, and I'm certainly not saying that, in context, you are in any way wrong.  That first bit just caught my eye.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: stromboli on February 01, 2016, 07:34:16 PM
I don't know that anyone would choose to be gay, but I can tell you some people definitely accept it. My gay friend dresses up to go to a drive through pharmacy. I mean we are talking jewelry, for fucks sake.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Munch on February 02, 2016, 05:15:06 AM
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I don't know that anyone would choose to be gay, but I can tell you some people definitely accept it. My gay friend dresses up to go to a drive through pharmacy. I mean we are talking jewelry, for fucks sake.

thats not being gay, thats being non-conservative within his gender -'norm'.
All the gay friends and boyfriends I've had over the years are just regular guys, big hairy men, regular shaped men, theri gamers, sports fans, guys working a 9-5 job, and i've only were meet men who drag it up at public events like parties.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: SoldierofFortune on February 02, 2016, 08:18:34 AM
not completely related to the topic but i am wondering how male gays get pleasure from the rectal massage...i mean what is the physiological mechanism...
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Munch on February 02, 2016, 10:18:58 AM
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not completely related to the topic but i am wondering how male gays get pleasure from the rectal massage...i mean what is the physiological mechanism...

A magical button known as the G-spot.

All men have it, but only those daring to venture into uncharted territories can know its divinity.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: stromboli on February 02, 2016, 10:26:24 AM
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A magical button known as the G-spot.

All men have it, but only those daring to venture into uncharted territories can know its divinity.

The shit I learn on here.....
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: SoldierofFortune on February 02, 2016, 11:03:42 AM
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A magical button known as the G-spot.

All men have it, but only those daring to venture into uncharted territories can know its divinity.

People wrongly suppose that they would be a gay if sth enters their ass, whereas they wouldn't, right... but i don't think i can take that risk...D
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: AllPurposeAtheist on February 02, 2016, 12:07:45 PM
It all started with that choice of whether or not to watch the Flintstones as a child..That ONE LITTLE phrase... "We'll have a GAY old time."  What more proof does anybody really need?  Heavens to Betsy!
It's all part of the Jewish conspiracy to make gentiles stop having babies..
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: aitm on February 02, 2016, 12:41:53 PM
All I ever needed was to find out that some humans are born with both sex organs. At that point, a light went off and....well, if one can have the physical attributes of both sexes surely one can have the psychological attributes of both. And then I learned that some people have absolutely no desire for sex and some for all kinds of whack-a-doo. So, it becomes pretty obvious to a reasonable person that human behavior starts long before they get a breath of fresh air.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: widdershins on February 02, 2016, 01:23:15 PM
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All I ever needed was to find out that some humans are born with both sex organs. At that point, a light went off and....well, if one can have the physical attributes of both sexes surely one can have the psychological attributes of both. And then I learned that some people have absolutely no desire for sex and some for all kinds of whack-a-doo. So, it becomes pretty obvious to a reasonable person that human behavior starts long before they get a breath of fresh air.
You know, by the "choice" argument one would have to conclude that, out of the blue, people just one day say, "You know what?  Today I'm going to start getting sexually excited by farm animals.  Yeah, that's the way I want to go with my life from here on out." and POOF, bestiality is born...by choice.  And foot fetishes.  Furries.  Whatever that other thing is in that thread I went into briefly before realizing I didn't want to know more or even know the word so I never went back, that's a choice too.  And "pretty" girls, we find them pretty because that's the type of women we "choose" to be attracted to.  And art doesn't "move" us, we "choose" which art we wish to be moved by.  Yeah, that all makes perfect sense.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Baruch on February 02, 2016, 10:58:06 PM
Behavior isn't black and white.  People develop over time, individually and collectively.  We come in many varieties ... not just two.  But we shouldn't deny our agency, our freedom of choice.  I can think about bestiality, but I don't have to act on it.  This is appropriate for something society considers to be taboo.  Gay marriage was considered taboo until recently.  The change (of at least a large percentage of the population) is incredibly fast.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: surreptitious57 on February 03, 2016, 12:08:56 AM
There are straights and gays and lesbians and bisexuals and transgenders. There are straight men who have
sex with other men. There are straight women who have sex with other women. There are gays and lesbians
who have straight sex. There are trans who have both straight and gay sex. There are asexuals who have no
sexual desire and nymphomaniacs who are psychologically addicted to sex. It is more complex than just men 
and women being attracted to each other and with no variation on this because human sexuality is not binary 
Title: Re: &quot;I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice...&quot;
Post by: The Skeletal Atheist on February 03, 2016, 06:40:31 AM
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not completely related to the topic but i am wondering how male gays get pleasure from the rectal massage...i mean what is the physiological mechanism...
To expand on Munch's response, male humans have this organ called the prostate gland. It is best reached through the rectum, and if you do it right it feels amazing.

Sent from Hell

Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: drunkenshoe on February 03, 2016, 06:52:39 AM
Myeh...I still think we got the best deal in that department.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: widdershins on February 03, 2016, 12:02:43 PM
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Myeh...I still think we got the best deal in that department.
By that I assume you mean women?  My sister used to say that women were better.  As evidence she offered that women have the tunnel of love whereas men have a snake that pukes.
Title: Re: &quot;I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice...&quot;
Post by: The Skeletal Atheist on February 03, 2016, 01:07:44 PM
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Myeh...I still think we got the best deal in that department.
Most likely.

Sent from Hell

Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Goon on February 06, 2016, 05:59:47 PM
Christians will say anything to further their delusion. i mean, they'll just keep going over the same dribble in their minds to come to conclusions. they have to believe.. why? they can't all be stupid. that whole poisoning the minds of children thing is prominent. you almost have to have an underdeveloped brain to come to a biblical conclusion on our existence.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Dionysiou on February 18, 2016, 02:37:59 AM
More of this ridiculous gay oppression garbage. I mean you'd have to be a black, gay Jew to compete with the level of attention seeking and victimizing that goes on.

You know what i reckon, it's a medical condition. Including pedophiles, incest and bestiality. Due to the nature of the symptoms (feelings) and mass cases it is treated as an orientation. We're not evolving further, human bodies are just fucked chemically.

People will get all butt hurt coz i'm not following the trends but i know this particular condition well enough. My younger brother is openly gay. I watched the kid grow up and love him regardless. I'd draw parallels to this issue and religion. Cope.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Baruch on February 18, 2016, 07:06:57 AM
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Christians will say anything to further their delusion. i mean, they'll just keep going over the same dribble in their minds to come to conclusions. they have to believe.. why? they can't all be stupid. that whole poisoning the minds of children thing is prominent. you almost have to have an underdeveloped brain to come to a biblical conclusion on our existence.

First we believe as children.  Then we know as adults and forget our childish beliefs.  But when you grow old ... you see the value of childishness looking back at you from your grandchildren.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Mike Cl on February 18, 2016, 09:31:07 AM
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More of this ridiculous gay oppression garbage. I mean you'd have to be a black, gay Jew to compete with the level of attention seeking and victimizing that goes on.

You know what i reckon, it's a medical condition. Including pedophiles, incest and bestiality. Due to the nature of the symptoms (feelings) and mass cases it is treated as an orientation. We're not evolving further, human bodies are just fucked chemically.

People will get all butt hurt coz i'm not following the trends but i know this particular condition well enough. My younger brother is openly gay. I watched the kid grow up and love him regardless. I'd draw parallels to this issue and religion. Cope.
For you, what is the difference between 'medical condition' and genetics?
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Dionysiou on February 19, 2016, 01:29:55 AM
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For you, what is the difference between 'medical condition' and genetics?

Most medical conditions require treatment. Or at least, people are aware of imbalances and want to address them. Genetics can also be shitty and sometimes things can be done about them. Saying homosexual attraction is genetic makes sense too but the issue is it's not seen as something to be fixed. They want to let the condition remain.

hypothetically, if there were a pill that pedophiles could take to inhibit their attraction to children, everyone would want them on it. So children would be safer.

In this case, it's two consenting adults, nobody being hurt. So it's left unaddressed. I really don't give a shit what ends up happening with the gays, i'm just not under any false pretense that their state is natural.

Also you've been conditioned to defend the gays and other minorities for a reason. This isn't about the world progressing forward and becoming more enlightened together. If the world gave a fuck and were intent on good, than poverty would have been eradicated long ago. Yet it gets little to no coverage at all.
instead this bullshit keeps coming up. I'm guessing de-population and the breakdown of the family unit are part of why this got the go ahead in the west. One of many government initiatives that will be progressively implemented to ram us in the ass. Shits fucked.   
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Mike Cl on February 19, 2016, 09:25:49 AM
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Most medical conditions require treatment. Or at least, people are aware of imbalances and want to address them. Genetics can also be shitty and sometimes things can be done about them. Saying homosexual attraction is genetic makes sense too but the issue is it's not seen as something to be fixed. They want to let the condition remain.

hypothetically, if there were a pill that pedophiles could take to inhibit their attraction to children, everyone would want them on it. So children would be safer.

In this case, it's two consenting adults, nobody being hurt. So it's left unaddressed. I really don't give a shit what ends up happening with the gays, i'm just not under any false pretense that their state is natural.

Also you've been conditioned to defend the gays and other minorities for a reason. This isn't about the world progressing forward and becoming more enlightened together. If the world gave a fuck and were intent on good, than poverty would have been eradicated long ago. Yet it gets little to no coverage at all.
instead this bullshit keeps coming up. I'm guessing de-population and the breakdown of the family unit are part of why this got the go ahead in the west. One of many government initiatives that will be progressively implemented to ram us in the ass. Shits fucked.
Wow!  You are one sick puppy!  Maybe you can see someone about your broken brain??!  Maybe one day you can become healthy.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Baruch on February 19, 2016, 12:24:34 PM
Natural, un-natural, supernatural ... these are all loaded words on this BB.  Best to retire all three words.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: josephpalazzo on February 19, 2016, 01:02:51 PM
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I really don't give a shit what ends up happening with the gays, i'm just not under any false pretense that their state is natural.


And what is your definition of a "natural state"? It's well documented that animals of many species engage in homosexual activities. Are they unnatural???

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals

Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: stromboli on February 19, 2016, 01:22:29 PM
Deviant:

Quote
Differing from a norm or from the accepted standards of a society.
n.
One that differs from a norm, especially a person whose behavior and attitudes differ from accepted social standards.

List of animals displaying homosexual behavior:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_displaying_homosexual_behavior

Bison[13]
Brown bear[14]
Brown rat[15]
Cavy[15]
Caribou[16]
Cat (domestic)[17]
Cattle (domestic)[18]
Chimpanzee[19][20][21][22]
Common dolphin[23]
Common marmoset[24]
Dog[25]
Elephant[26]
Fox[27]
Giraffe[3][28][29]
Goat[13]
Horse (domestic)[30]
Human[31][32][33]
Koala[34]
Lion[31]
Orca[23]
Raccoon[35]

Just mammals. Many other classes of animals have also exhibited homosexual characteristics.

Deviant is simply what is considered acceptable. If homosexuality exists abundantly in nature, it is hard to consider it as deviant.

Human homosexuality is as old as our species and very likely existed and was inherited from our proto-ancestors. It is scientifically and medically accepted as being in the range of normal behavior(s), so therefore it is normal.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Nonsensei on February 19, 2016, 02:09:57 PM
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More of this ridiculous gay oppression garbage. I mean you'd have to be a black, gay Jew to compete with the level of attention seeking and victimizing that goes on.

You know what i reckon, it's a medical condition. Including pedophiles, incest and bestiality. Due to the nature of the symptoms (feelings) and mass cases it is treated as an orientation. We're not evolving further, human bodies are just fucked chemically.

People will get all butt hurt coz i'm not following the trends but i know this particular condition well enough. My younger brother is openly gay. I watched the kid grow up and love him regardless. I'd draw parallels to this issue and religion. Cope.

Sounds like you're just believing whatever you want and reality can go fuck itself. Talk about drawing a parallel to religion.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: aitm on February 19, 2016, 02:37:00 PM
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i'm just not under any false pretense that their state is natural.   

Let's look at this for a minute.  At a certain percentage of anything things go from normal to a deviation. Black sheep are a a constant deviation averaging less than 1%. Red-heads are a deviation averaging 2%, Homosexuals average around 8-9 depending on your flavor, left handed people average 10% of the masses.

However, when that percentage remains constant for a long time, it is no longer a deviation, it becomes a percentile of the norm. A recurring percentile of a thing becomes a commonality, a trait. It is now a trait of the human species that 8-9% will be homosexual. As much as 1.5% are androgynous, 2% are red-headed, and 10% are left-handed. These are now established traits of the human animal.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Dionysiou on February 19, 2016, 06:15:46 PM
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And what is your definition of a "natural state"? It's well documented that animals of many species engage in homosexual activities. Are they unnatural???

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals




Natural state is what you get when everything is balanced in the body. Animals aren't immune to the condition either. What purpose could homosexual behaviour actually serve them? Assert dominance? They don't think about it like humans do.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Dionysiou on February 19, 2016, 06:20:02 PM
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Sounds like you're just believing whatever you want and reality can go fuck itself. Talk about drawing a parallel to religion.

I just don't believe everything i'm told. Even when everyone has jumped on the bandwagon or been conditioned to.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Dionysiou on February 19, 2016, 06:24:56 PM
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Let's look at this for a minute.  At a certain percentage of anything things go from normal to a deviation. Black sheep are a a constant deviation averaging less than 1%. Red-heads are a deviation averaging 2%, Homosexuals average around 8-9 depending on your flavor, left handed people average 10% of the masses.

However, when that percentage remains constant for a long time, it is no longer a deviation, it becomes a percentile of the norm. A recurring percentile of a thing becomes a commonality, a trait. It is now a trait of the human species that 8-9% will be homosexual. As much as 1.5% are androgynous, 2% are red-headed, and 10% are left-handed. These are now established traits of the human animal.

Legit. It's a condition that's become a percentile of the norm. Just like autism and pedophilia.

Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Dionysiou on February 19, 2016, 06:27:03 PM
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Wow!  You are one sick puppy!  Maybe you can see someone about your broken brain??!  Maybe one day you can become healthy.

Cope.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: josephpalazzo on February 19, 2016, 06:32:00 PM
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Natural state is what you get when everything is balanced in the body. Animals aren't immune to the condition either. What purpose could homosexual behaviour actually serve them? Assert dominance? They don't think about it like humans do.

And how is that "everything is balanced in the body" goes? There are 37 trillions cells that make up the human  body, with each and every single cell undergoing a million or so chemical reactions on any given day, there is no way anyone can define what is  "balanced in the body".  IOW, you have no idea what a natural state means, just making up nonsense. Secondly, in case you haven't heard, there is no purpose to life, except the one you make for yourself. So asking what purpose is behind homosexuality is like asking what purpose is there for the sky to be blue? It's a pointless question.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Nonsensei on February 19, 2016, 06:34:54 PM
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I just don't believe everything i'm told. Even when everyone has jumped on the bandwagon or been conditioned to.

Of course you don't  believe everything you're told. In fact you're very selective about what you choose to believe. For example, anything that threatens your world view? Fuck that. Almost everyone else accepts it? They've been conditioned. Theres proof that its true? Scientist conspiracy.

It would just be fucking awful if homosexuals weren't to blame for their homosexuality wouldn't it? It would be just all sorts of nasty if it wasn't a treatable condition but rather a natural attribute. Then the icky icky gays would win.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Dionysiou on February 19, 2016, 06:52:54 PM
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Of course you don't  believe everything you're told. In fact you're very selective about what you choose to believe. For example, anything that threatens your world view? Fuck that. Almost everyone else accepts it? They've been conditioned. Theres proof that its true? Scientist conspiracy.

It would just be fucking awful if homosexuals weren't to blame for their homosexuality wouldn't it? It would be just all sorts of nasty if it wasn't a treatable condition but rather a natural attribute. Then the icky icky gays would win.

Homosexuals aren't to blame for their homosexuality anymore than pedophiles are to blame for their attraction to kids. It's all the same shit. Nobody wants to treat it because they want to keep it around. Mate, I used to be religious, what threat does any of this have on my worldview? None buddy boyo.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Dionysiou on February 19, 2016, 06:59:44 PM
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And how is that "everything is balanced in the body" goes? There are 37 trillions cells that make up the human  body, with each and every single cell undergoing a million or so chemical reactions on any given day, there is no way anyone can define what is  "balanced in the body".  IOW, you have no idea what a natural state means, just making up nonsense. Secondly, in case you haven't heard, there is no purpose to life, except the one you make for yourself. So asking what purpose is behind homosexuality is like asking what purpose is there for the sky to be blue? It's a pointless question.

I'd say that how the vast majority operate both in humans and animals dictates what a balanced state looks like. The outliers are just that.

Animals don't make a purpose for themself. They are wired to survive. Homosexuality provides no benefit to them or nature. It's a pursuit of pleasure which only humans could have as a lifestyle.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: aitm on February 19, 2016, 07:02:39 PM
Quote
Homosexuals aren't to blame for their homosexuality

Quote
It's a pursuit of pleasure which only humans could have as a lifestyle.

You seem to have conflicting statements. Clarify please.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Dionysiou on February 19, 2016, 07:08:17 PM
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You seem to have conflicting statements. Clarify please.

homosexuals bodies are chemically imbalanced. They did not choose it.   

homosexuality provides no function outside of pleasure. People celebrate it as a lifestyle. 

yeh
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: josephpalazzo on February 19, 2016, 07:09:56 PM
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I'd say that how the vast majority operate both in humans and animals dictates what a balanced state looks like.

But you haven't defined what is a natural state is. All you're doing is saying "natural state" = "balanced state". Without defining properly what is "balanced state", you're back to zero.

Quote
The outliers are just that
.


The outliers cannot defined what you haven't defined in the first place. You're still stuck in neutral.

Quote
Homosexuality provides no benefit to them or nature.




That's a blatant statement with no evidence supporting it. What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Dionysiou on February 19, 2016, 07:18:02 PM
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But you haven't defined what is a natural state is. All you're doing is saying "natural state" = "balanced state". Without defining properly what is "balanced state", you're back to zero.
.


The outliers cannot defined what you haven't defined in the first place. You're still stuck in neutral.


We got what, 90% of the population in humans and animals as straight?  That's the default balanced state.

Since i can already provide evidence of the benefit straight couples have in nature, it's your job to tell me how homosexuality does. So enlighten away.

Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Nonsensei on February 19, 2016, 07:39:46 PM
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We got what, 90% of the population in humans and animals as straight?  That's the default balanced state.

Since i can already provide evidence of the benefit straight couples have in nature, it's your job to tell me how homosexuality does. So enlighten away.



90% of people are also right handed. I there's something wrong with left handed people, by your "logic".
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Mike Cl on February 19, 2016, 07:49:06 PM
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Cope.
Cope?  Yeah, I do--I let go of a little ignorance on a daily basis--it is amazing what science and curiosity can uncover.  Seems, tho, that you and coping are having a harder time.  You read a very narrow band of opinion and adopt it as the 'truth'--and you seem to think you are not so easily duped.  What can I say?????  There are none so blind as the blind that denies their blindness.  When I was growing up, lefthanded children were taught to use their right hand in everything so that their left-handedness could be fixed.  You are still back in those days.  Why don't you try reading some rudimentary biology.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: stromboli on February 19, 2016, 08:03:09 PM
It has been observed in primate groups- monkeys and chimps- that homosexual members play a role in both nurturing and caring for individual members of the social group not their offspring. There is the famous story of a homosexual gorilla couple that adopted an orphan and cared for it to adulthood.

Gays don't contribute through providing offspring, but in a social group they can fulfill other roles that benefit the group. A society of primates is a fairly complex group- they have interactions very similar to a human tribe in terms of defining leadership, certain members that serve to gather food, others watch the tribe and so on. They may not play a central role in a social group, but they do serve to fill in and provide support for the group.

Consider also that they have contributed in a large way to human society. Some of the more famous LGBT people:
 
Socrates
Christopher Marlowe
Michelangelo
Leonardo da Vinci
Francis Bacon
Shakespeare
Hadrian (as in the wall)

Oscar Wilde
Quentin Crisp
Harvey Milk
Gertrude Stein
Alice Toklas

Alexander the great (Monarch)
Leonardo da Vinci (Architect, painter, inventer...go on)
Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky(composer)
Pietro Aretina (playwright)
Walt Whitman (writer)
Samuel Butler (writer)
Oscar Wilde (novelist)
Michelangelo (architect, sculptor)
George Rose (politician)
James Ivory (mathematician, scientist)

Alan Turing (pretty much invented computers)

And some others not on here. You can make the case that heterosexuals could be just as productive, but apparently they do not in themselves represent a detriment to society. And there is yet more to be learned, so in that respect the jury is still out.

They have been productive members of society historically and have contributed. So they do serve a function, though maybe not by your set of rules. 
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Hydra009 on February 19, 2016, 08:07:23 PM
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homosexuality provides no function outside of pleasure.
(Ignoring for a second the attempt at reducing romance to mere pleasure) So?  Lots of things humans do provide no utilitarian benefit.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Dionysiou on February 20, 2016, 12:07:15 AM
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90% of people are also right handed. I there's something wrong with left handed people, by your "logic".
I'm not justifying the left or right handed persons role in nature. This discussion is focused on sexual function and orientation.  I establish a baseline through what's most common and provides a reason e.g reproduction.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: TrueStory on February 20, 2016, 12:10:45 AM
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Homosexuals aren't to blame for their homosexuality anymore than pedophiles are to blame for their attraction to kids. It's all the same shit. Nobody wants to treat it because they want to keep it around. Mate, I used to be religious, what threat does any of this have on my worldview? None buddy boyo.
Obviously you have never studied evolutionary biology.   Ones genetic load is actually quite high when helping ones parents and siblings raise offspring, and when humans lived in smaller groups that may have had limited resources it would be beneficial to have more support raising a few offspring than to have many offspring, so being only attracted to sexual relationships that can't lead to viable offspring would help the fitness of both the parents and their offspring in those situations.  AKA cooperative breeding.

There are many examples cooperative breeding in other animals, especially birds.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Baruch on February 20, 2016, 12:12:49 AM
Dionysiou ... you are assuming that human society and human reproduction serve a useful purpose.  If they do not, then individualism and non-reproduction are superior, not inferior.  But many religious folks think very much like Darwin ... ironically ... that their purpose is to inseminate as many females as possible, in violent chimpanzee-like alpha male displays, and that the purpose is to produce the largest number of adults possible, usually young military age males.  If humans were only animals, and not something more ... then you might be right.  But then conservatives would also be right, that everything should be competition, and any sign of human compassion, of cooperation is deeply subversive and must be stamped out.  Think of the Nazi plans for Aryan women and Nazi youth ... and you get the picture.  If the purpose of humanity is to produce Nazis, then I would contend that we serve no useful purpose.

Now that was polemics.  IMHO ... people are to be both competitive and cooperative.  That moderate family life (which can come is any number of forms) is beneficial both the the people involved, and society at large.  That adopted children are proof that biological descent isn't the only way.  And that given adoption, and artificial insemination ... lesbian and gay couples are quite as productive as the dysfunctional circus provided by ordinary hetero couples.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Dionysiou on February 20, 2016, 12:22:39 AM
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It has been observed in primate groups- monkeys and chimps- that homosexual members play a role in both nurturing and caring for individual members of the social group not their offspring. There is the famous story of a homosexual gorilla couple that adopted an orphan and cared for it to adulthood.

Gays don't contribute through providing offspring, but in a social group they can fulfill other roles that benefit the group. A society of primates is a fairly complex group- they have interactions very similar to a human tribe in terms of defining leadership, certain members that serve to gather food, others watch the tribe and so on. They may not play a central role in a social group, but they do serve to fill in and provide support for the group.

Consider also that they have contributed in a large way to human society. Some of the more famous LGBT people:
 
Socrates
Christopher Marlowe
Michelangelo
Leonardo da Vinci
Francis Bacon
Shakespeare
Hadrian (as in the wall)

Oscar Wilde
Quentin Crisp
Harvey Milk
Gertrude Stein
Alice Toklas

Alexander the great (Monarch)
Leonardo da Vinci (Architect, painter, inventer...go on)
Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky(composer)
Pietro Aretina (playwright)
Walt Whitman (writer)
Samuel Butler (writer)
Oscar Wilde (novelist)
Michelangelo (architect, sculptor)
George Rose (politician)
James Ivory (mathematician, scientist)

Alan Turing (pretty much invented computers)

And some others not on here. You can make the case that heterosexuals could be just as productive, but apparently they do not in themselves represent a detriment to society. And there is yet more to be learned, so in that respect the jury is still out.

They have been productive members of society historically and have contributed. So they do serve a function, though maybe not by your set of rules. 


Legit. I've got no vendetta against gays. It's not something I'm actively trying to change, don't care. Of course there are smart and successfull gay people in history. My point has been that I couldn't objectively give them a function in nature. You could be right about the support roles though. I get that they are born that way and can't control their sexual inclination, like many other sexual tendencies I mentioned. I'm just convinced that these inclinations are a result of something going wrong and that's why everyone is getting defensive. I'm not blaming them for it and don't expect people to begin researching a treatment. It's just another symptom of an imperfect world which is accepted. My brother is a good example of a good contribution to society, so are most gay people I meet. They are still people who deserve respect as much as anyone.

Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Dionysiou on February 20, 2016, 12:36:55 AM
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Cope?  Yeah, I do--I let go of a little ignorance on a daily basis--it is amazing what science and curiosity can uncover.  Seems, tho, that you and coping are having a harder time.  You read a very narrow band of opinion and adopt it as the 'truth'--and you seem to think you are not so easily duped.  What can I say?????  There are none so blind as the blind that denies their blindness.  When I was growing up, lefthanded children were taught to use their right hand in everything so that their left-handedness could be fixed.  You are still back in those days.  Why don't you try reading some rudimentary biology.

Everyone's an expert right. Why are you even making a fuss? Get on with your life.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Dionysiou on February 20, 2016, 12:38:55 AM
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(Ignoring for a second the attempt at reducing romance to mere pleasure) So?  Lots of things humans do provide no utilitarian benefit.

Legit. I'm not saying it has to provide more.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Dionysiou on February 20, 2016, 12:44:39 AM
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Obviously you have never studied evolutionary biology.   Ones genetic load is actually quite high when helping ones parents and siblings raise offspring, and when humans lived in smaller groups that may have had limited resources it would be beneficial to have more support raising a few offspring than to have many offspring, so being only attracted to sexual relationships that can't lead to viable offspring would help the fitness of both the parents and their offspring in those situations.  AKA cooperative breeding.

There are many examples cooperative breeding in other animals, especially birds.

Legit. This could be an explanation.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Dionysiou on February 20, 2016, 12:51:23 AM
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Dionysiou ... you are assuming that human society and human reproduction serve a useful purpose.  If they do not, then individualism and non-reproduction are superior, not inferior.  But many religious folks think very much like Darwin ... ironically ... that their purpose is to inseminate as many females as possible, in violent chimpanzee-like alpha male displays, and that the purpose is to produce the largest number of adults possible, usually young military age males.  If humans were only animals, and not something more ... then you might be right.  But then conservatives would also be right, that everything should be competition, and any sign of human compassion, of cooperation is deeply subversive and must be stamped out.  Think of the Nazi plans for Aryan women and Nazi youth ... and you get the picture.  If the purpose of humanity is to produce Nazis, then I would contend that we serve no useful purpose.

Now that was polemics.  IMHO ... people are to be both competitive and cooperative.  That moderate family life (which can come is any number of forms) is beneficial both the the people involved, and society at large.  That adopted children are proof that biological descent isn't the only way.  And that given adoption, and artificial insemination ... lesbian and gay couples are quite as productive as the dysfunctional circus provided by ordinary hetero couples.

In some cases for sure. Gay couples can serve a role in society as a whole. De-population for one. Even if they didn't, it doesn't matter anyway. I'm not sure if lesbian and gay adoption is a good idea long term though. i won't get into it though.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Baruch on February 20, 2016, 08:09:32 AM
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In some cases for sure. Gay couples can serve a role in society as a whole. De-population for one. Even if they didn't, it doesn't matter anyway. I'm not sure if lesbian and gay adoption is a good idea long term though. i won't get into it though.

Good enough.  I have idealistic druthers about anything other than a hetero couple, and with strong gender identities, for "proper" modeling of social assimilation.  There is an unrealized idea in this discussion ... how ordered society should be.  Some prefer it to be very anarchic, others prefer it to be very ordered.  A highly ordered society isn't forgiving of gays and other bohemians.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: josephpalazzo on February 20, 2016, 09:53:51 AM
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We got what, 90% of the population in humans and animals as straight?  That's the default balanced state.

Again without defining was is a balanced state, your statement is meaningless.

Quote
Since i can already provide evidence of the benefit straight couples have in nature, it's your job to tell me how homosexuality does. So enlighten away.


Stomboli's post put a nail in that coffin with a list of past LGBT who contributed immensely to the advancement of our civilization.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Mike Cl on February 20, 2016, 10:51:37 AM
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Everyone's an expert right. Why are you even making a fuss? Get on with your life.
You seem to think you are, indeed, an expert.  You are the one spewing your tripe all over this thread.  My life?  Coming along just fine, thank you. 

Since you seem intent upon putting forth your baseless crap, I thought I'd respond.  Yeah, I know it is useless since you are hooked on the religious way of viewing the world---based on belief and with no regard for any sort of facts or rational thinking.  Sadly, your getting a life seems beyond your grasp.  As I said before, I hope you can achieve a healthy brain before you die.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: RCnal on April 07, 2016, 12:31:17 PM
I think (because I have absolutely no scientific basis for this opinion) homosexuality is just another random mutation, or just anomaly in the circle of life. There are 7 billion of us on this rock. To think that every one of use will be born with the same wiring is just crazy. Kids are born with physical defects and differences all the time. It's completely random. You don't find too many things that happen that also doesn't occur in a few thousand other people.
Is it completely out of the realm of possibility that someone is born one gender but their wiring gets crossed and they are attracted to the same gender? Is it crazy to think that some out of the billions of births in history that some peoples brains are wired one way for one gender but their physical appearance comes out another? Every mammalian species exhibits homosexuality. Why on earth would we feel we are going to be any different?!
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: stromboli on April 07, 2016, 12:37:32 PM
The jury is still out as to the ultimate cause, but no doubt there is a genetic or other factor involved. My (gay) friend told me he was aware of his sexuality at age 12. Many instances I'm familiar with are similar. There are too many examples of young men or women raised in households with good parenting and everything that meets what we consider fine role models still discover they are gay. It isn't environmental or learned, no matter what the conservatives say.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Blackleaf on April 07, 2016, 06:40:58 PM
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The jury is still out as to the ultimate cause, but no doubt there is a genetic or other factor involved. My (gay) friend told me he was aware of his sexuality at age 12. Many instances I'm familiar with are similar. There are too many examples of young men or women raised in households with good parenting and everything that meets what we consider fine role models still discover they are gay. It isn't environmental or learned, no matter what the conservatives say.

Many conditions and behaviors in psychology are not fully explainable by biology or environmental factors alone. There's most often an interaction between the two. It is true, however, that primary care givers who are gay are not any more likely to have gay children. So it's neither infectious or hereditary.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: widdershins on April 13, 2016, 11:55:40 AM
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The jury is still out as to the ultimate cause, but no doubt there is a genetic or other factor involved. My (gay) friend told me he was aware of his sexuality at age 12. Many instances I'm familiar with are similar. There are too many examples of young men or women raised in households with good parenting and everything that meets what we consider fine role models still discover they are gay. It isn't environmental or learned, no matter what the conservatives say.
My nephew told me the same thing.  About 12 was when he realized.  My JW friend tried to tell me that "something" must have happened to him to turn him gay.  Because, you know, if one gay guy says he was molested by a guy when he was young then that's not only the cause of him being gay, it's the cause of all gayness everywhere.  Of course he made this "diagnosis" never having actually met my nephew and it is absolutely not what happened.  He's just gay.  There really is no more to the story.  Well, unless you want to get into the story about how that has affected him negatively his whole life, how half the family won't talk to him because we're a bunch of fucking rednecks (my own neck far less red than much of my family, thankfully), how his mom checked herself into a psych ward when he came out...but that's really the result of being gay in an society that didn't accept it, nothing to do with why he's gay.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: AkiraTheFighter on April 13, 2016, 07:36:11 PM
People like this make me sick. I mean yeah it's your opinion and you have the right to it. But as you said in your reply to that person, why would anybody chose such a hard life? As both a Homosexual and an Atheist I literally can not be 100% myself in my my country or I'll get into serious trouble.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Divina on April 13, 2016, 11:21:12 PM
Research shows otherwise. However, I really don't give a damn if it is, or isn't. It still dosent make it wrong.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: trdsf on April 14, 2016, 10:20:25 PM
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Many conditions and behaviors in psychology are not fully explainable by biology or environmental factors alone. There's most often an interaction between the two. It is true, however, that primary care givers who are gay are not any more likely to have gay children. So it's neither infectious or hereditary.
There is a definite hereditary part to homosexuality.  I expect it's either a recessive or an uncommon combination of genes that set the biological predisposition.

There are known genetic components, but no known genetic driver.  Markers include having a ring finger longer than the index finger, and having a parent with a gay sibling of the same gender, having several older siblings of the same gender, and the direction one's hair spirals out from the occiput.  I have the first two m'self -- there is most definitely a hereditary component.  On the flip side, my hair spirals in the more common clockwise direction, and I'm the oldest of three, no older siblings of any sort.  So there are multiple factors, but it's entirely erroneous to just flatly say that it's not hereditary.  Some part of it absolutely is.

The jury's still out on what the ultimate driver is.  It's certainly not choice.  I couldn't choose to be straight.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Bluewind on April 17, 2016, 04:13:08 AM
The OP had a beautiful reply to a difficult situation and so have the majority of people who has commented here (save those with occasional bouts of mental diarrhea). It's not easy being different and sometimes people fight against it. Nobody wants to be shunned or to become the thing we have all been told is wrong. Those of us raised in religious households fought against admitting we were atheists or agnostics because of how we w were raised and or environment. Those of us who live in a society and/or family where it is frowned upon or even criminal to have an identity other than cis gender attracted to opposite cis gender, but that is not the way the world or nature works. People can be born homosexual just as any other creature can be born homosexual. It's a fact. However, it's when we get into sexualities that aren't heterosexual/homosexual and non cis gender identities that things become even more complicated, especially when dealing with people who long to believe it's a choice.

First off, a few common definitions (there are many MANY more terms)
Bisexual: Willing to pair with both male and female. May or may not be more attracted to one gender than the other. May or may not be attracted to trans men/women. Often used as a catch all term for those that aren't heterosexual or homosexual as it is more common.
Polysexual: Willing to pair with most genders, but not necessarily all genders.
Pansexual: Willing to pair with people based off their personality with gender being secondary.
Queer: Originally a term for anyone in the LGBT+ community especially those that don't fall within a category very well. The author of the web comic Oh Joy Sex Toy is an example (she's a female who originally identified as a lesbian but married a man, is attracted to both, and occasionally soft packs). Unfortunately, it is now used as a slur or insult.
Cis gender: Male/female genitals match mental gender.
Trans gender: Genitals do not match mental gender. They may or may not go through hormone therapy or have surgery. Harmless drugs are often given to trans* teens to halt puberty to given them time to decide if it is right for them.
Intersex: Born with a mixture of male and female parts. Much more common than people realize as doctors often perform "gender normalizing" surgery on them when they are too young to remember. It is often only discovered upon autopsy (such as a man with overies).
Gender fluid: The gender they are (including mixtures of genders) depends on their mood and feelings that day.
Two Spirit: To feel like a combination of genders instead of strictly one gender.
Third Gender: To identity as a gender that is not male or female.
Genderless: To not have a gender.

Now, look at all of that. Look at just a few of a things that we as human being can define ourselves as. Is it any wonder there are people out there claiming to be "reformed" homosexuals?

We long to not be the thing we are taught is wrong, incorrect, immoral, and unnatural. We have a binary world drilled into our heads until we believe there is only two ways to be: straight or gay, cis gender or transgender, theist or anti-theist... right and wrong. The truth is there are plenty of shades of gray between them and combinations of them and things that don't really fall under either! And there they are, grasping as straws, longing to not be sinners or wrong or unnatural when they discover they do not fit so neatly into the category they thought they did and instead of embracing the gray, they run screaming and crying back into the arms of the place they think they are supposed to be. We can't be angry at them for their flawed logic that boarders on the delusional because of their deep denial of their true self; we can only pity them and try to show through our own actions that we are good, logical people who deserve to be treated with respect, dignity, and equality.

As a side note, I often refer to myself as bisexual for convenience, but I align more with polysexual as I'm attracted to more than just male and female, but I still notice gender. This does not make me selfish, attracted to everybody (I have preferences just like everybody else), a whore, or polyamorus.

There is a chance I could be intersex as I had to have surgery as a baby and again as a teen, have a scar on my labia, and am missing my labia minora. I act like a foul mouth cross between male and female most of the time, but I'm happy to have my vagina which works just fine, so regardless of what I was born as I feel like I identity mostly as female now. ;)
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: marom1963 on April 17, 2016, 11:40:39 AM
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Most straight people are simply ignorant, and as there are more of them the ignorance sometimes seems overwhelming, of course that is because it is. Straight people think its either "black or white". Most straights, being ignorant, are also unaware that anywhere from 1.5 to 2% of humanity is born androgynous, with both sex organs. Now to a reasonable person, this should suggest that as physical androgyny is very real, psychological androgyny should be equally possible. So that there should be a multitude of degrees to which any individual can find themselves attracted to either or both sexes. I have never been able to grasp what's hard about this to understand.
You're talking about people who fail to grasp this - if homosexuality is a choice ... then so is heterosexuality - and I think that one of these "it's a choice" people should take a hit for the team and become gay! Just choose to become gay to prove that it's a choice! Yeah - become gay for a minimum of 5 years.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Baruch on April 18, 2016, 10:53:49 PM
What you do with what you got ... is a choice (even if you are under some coercion or compulsion ... otherwise we can't find anyone liable for anything).  What you got isn't a choice.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: marom1963 on April 19, 2016, 05:00:47 AM
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What you do with what you got ... is a choice (even if you are under some coercion or compulsion ... otherwise we can't find anyone liable for anything).  What you got isn't a choice.
And - so?  What, are gay people supposed to do w/o sex b/c it offends God? Then why did he make so many animals who have same-sex sex?
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Baruch on April 19, 2016, 06:48:57 AM
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And - so?  What, are gay people supposed to do w/o sex b/c it offends God? Then why did he make so many animals who have same-sex sex?

Did I separate gay from straight friend?  Am I anti-sex?  I think people should rape road kill (animals only?).  But then I am accused of being a misanthrope.  Y'all have no idea.  There will eventually be a string here, with earnest arguing, when road kill rape is appropriate and when it is not.  SJW and MRA will take opposite sides.  Twisted cartoons for Elmer Fudd and Bugs Bunny will appear.  Bugs has appeared in drag in the past, so like a ho ... he has it coming.  Has nothing to do with G-d, has everything with behaving responsibly or otherwise.  99.9% of sexual irresponsibility is by straight folk.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Blackleaf on April 20, 2016, 01:59:29 AM
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There is a definite hereditary part to homosexuality.  I expect it's either a recessive or an uncommon combination of genes that set the biological predisposition.

There are known genetic components, but no known genetic driver.  Markers include having a ring finger longer than the index finger, and having a parent with a gay sibling of the same gender, having several older siblings of the same gender, and the direction one's hair spirals out from the occiput.  I have the first two m'self -- there is most definitely a hereditary component.  On the flip side, my hair spirals in the more common clockwise direction, and I'm the oldest of three, no older siblings of any sort.  So there are multiple factors, but it's entirely erroneous to just flatly say that it's not hereditary.  Some part of it absolutely is.

The jury's still out on what the ultimate driver is.  It's certainly not choice.  I couldn't choose to be straight.

What I meant was that a gay person doesn't pass off their sexual orientation to their children. There seems to be a genetic component to practically everything, but it's complicated, and sometimes activated by the environment (such as the number of biologically related males in the home).

What I find really strange, though, is how a genetic component could exist when natural selection is involved. The only thing nature cares about is procreation. If a genetic feature doesn't help you have more babies, it usually gets weeded out, like when deep sea fish lost their eyes.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Hijiri Byakuren on April 20, 2016, 02:04:45 AM
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What I find really strange, though, is how a genetic component could exist when natural selection is involved. The only thing nature cares about is procreation. If a genetic feature doesn't help you have more babies, it usually gets weeded out, like when deep sea fish lost their eyes.
This is one of my major sticking points with homosexuality. Since homosexuals generally aren't inclined to breed, genetic homosexuality should have died out already.

I'm more inclined to believe it happens at a higher level than that. Maybe a chromosomal thing, or something that happens in the womb. Still something you're born with, just not as a result of genetics.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: marom1963 on April 20, 2016, 04:03:29 AM
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This is one of my major sticking points with homosexuality. Since homosexuals generally aren't inclined to breed, genetic homosexuality should have died out already.

I'm more inclined to believe it happens at a higher level than that. Maybe a chromosomal thing, or something that happens in the womb. Still something you're born with, just not as a result of genetics.
Hello! The gene is carried by - heterosexuals! They're the ones who do all the reproducing. Ergo - they're the ones carrying the gene. Homosexuals have - heterosexual parents. Hello!
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Mike Cl on April 20, 2016, 08:42:15 AM
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What I find really strange, though, is how a genetic component could exist when natural selection is involved. The only thing nature cares about is procreation. If a genetic feature doesn't help you have more babies, it usually gets weeded out, like when deep sea fish lost their eyes.
That's just it, Blackleaf.  Nature does not 'care' about anything.  Nature has no feeling; it is not a 'thing'.  I am as far from an expert in genetics as one can get.  But with recessive genes in play, it would seem normal that homosexuality would be expressed every now and again.  If nature cared about that, then I would wonder.  But since nature cares not, it is not a mystery for me.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Bluewind on April 21, 2016, 12:37:20 AM
In a tribal situation, I can imagine a few advantages to having homosexuals. One would be child care. An active, young, healthy, person with no children or mate could train and watch the young, bring in food and such for the tribe, and pair off with other like minded individuals to keep the tribe from growing too fast to support itself (most likely only mating with the opposite sex if the leader said more children were badly needed). There are similar benefits to the women living well beyond when they lose their fertility, but with the added benefit of youth (thus the reason it only happens every so often). Tribes with the gene that have the potential to create people born homosexual or bisexual (perhaps they were willing to pair with same sex when children weren't needed?) must have been more successful than those who didn't thus the reason it still exists.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Blackleaf on April 21, 2016, 01:06:14 AM
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That's just it, Blackleaf.  Nature does not 'care' about anything.  Nature has no feeling; it is not a 'thing'.  I am as far from an expert in genetics as one can get.  But with recessive genes in play, it would seem normal that homosexuality would be expressed every now and again.  If nature cared about that, then I would wonder.  But since nature cares not, it is not a mystery for me.

I wasn't speaking literally, but nature tends to weed out traits that don't increase your likelihood of procreating. Even body parts that outlive their usefulness are eventually lost to evolution in order to save energy. Evolution isn't a driving force in itself, but those who have children are the ones who's genes live on, and thus the ones nature "prefers." This is why it puzzles me that there would be such a large number of people who are homosexual if it were purely attributable to genetic predisposition. But Blue's explanation is interesting, and could partly explain it.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Blackleaf on April 21, 2016, 01:18:01 AM
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In a tribal situation, I can imagine a few advantages to having homosexuals. One would be child care. An active, young, healthy, person with no children or mate could train and watch the young, bring in food and such for the tribe, and pair off with other like minded individuals to keep the tribe from growing too fast to support itself (most likely only mating with the opposite sex if the leader said more children were badly needed). There are similar benefits to the women living well beyond when they lose their fertility, but with the added benefit of youth (thus the reason it only happens every so often). Tribes with the gene that have the potential to create people born homosexual or bisexual (perhaps they were willing to pair with same sex when children weren't needed?) must have been more successful than those who didn't thus the reason it still exists.

Interesting. So you're looking at it from the perspective of the tribal unit rather than the individual. Like with a honey bee that stings a thieving bear, ending its own life but increasing the chances of survival for its hive. This could possibly explain some of it. Perhaps the negative stigma against their "unnatural" desires led them to both hide their orientation (self-preservation) and to contribute to society in unique ways. Social norms could have also led to people who were homosexual to marry the opposite sex anyway, and have children of their own. I don't know how many ancient tribes had a bias against them, but I figure most would follow the knee jerk reaction of, "This is different; I don't like it."
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: trdsf on April 21, 2016, 01:41:18 PM
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In a tribal situation, I can imagine a few advantages to having homosexuals. One would be child care. An active, young, healthy, person with no children or mate could train and watch the young, bring in food and such for the tribe, and pair off with other like minded individuals to keep the tribe from growing too fast to support itself (most likely only mating with the opposite sex if the leader said more children were badly needed). There are similar benefits to the women living well beyond when they lose their fertility, but with the added benefit of youth (thus the reason it only happens every so often). Tribes with the gene that have the potential to create people born homosexual or bisexual (perhaps they were willing to pair with same sex when children weren't needed?) must have been more successful than those who didn't thus the reason it still exists.
These benefits apply even before there's sufficient intelligence within a species to form tribes.  The same things can apply to pack behavior, or any kind of social unit.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Munch on April 21, 2016, 02:28:40 PM
In Papua New guinea, the Sambia tribe have a strict ritual that young men in their tribe have to first distance themselves from women from ages 8-10 to prove they can stand alone without women to nurse them, and if they manage to, between the ages of 10-15, to achieve manhood, they have to suck off and swallow the older warrior's of the tribe, eating the semen, in order to be called a man.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: The Skeletal Atheist on May 01, 2016, 03:15:57 PM
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In Papua New guinea, the Sambia tribe have a strict ritual that young men in their tribe have to first distance themselves from women from ages 8-10 to prove they can stand alone without women to nurse them, and if they manage to, between the ages of 10-15, to achieve manhood, they have to suck off and swallow the older warrior's of the tribe, eating the semen, in order to be called a man.

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/170/456474931_0356ba4a8d.jpg)

Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: aitm on May 01, 2016, 09:34:04 PM
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gh, is how a genetic component could exist when natural selection is involved. The only thing nature cares about is procreation. If a genetic feature doesn't help you have more babies, it usually gets weeded out, like when deep sea fish lost their eyes.

sometimes we tend to over think the results of our genetics. For all it does to perfection, it still has glitches. Consider that spontaneous abortion is far more reliable in ridding humanity of "undesirable" traits. Sexuality has fallen below the radar for spontaneous abortion because it is not "considered" to be disadvantageous to living. Sexuality is not even a trait anymore that our genetics weeds out embryonically as it is not considered more disadvantageous than mental retardation or physical deformity. Genetics itself has waived a "get out of jail free" card. The human genome does not recognize sexual inclination as a defining/neccessary/important part of the whole to be cause for concern. A gay man can produce sperm, a gay woman can conceive, the genome does not see a problem.

This is not to say that at the same time that genetics tend to push an individual, sexually one way or another based on a myriad of genetic compositions. That humans can be born with both sex organs, is proof enough that human sexuality stretches from one gender to another in a very broad and overlapping road of confusion that sometimes takes years for one person to even recognize the road they are on….was never the road they were on.
Title: Re: &quot;I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice...&quot;
Post by: shadyace on May 02, 2016, 11:44:41 AM
Here's a thought, if homosexuality is not a choice then neither is pediofilia, necrophilia and beastiality.
People can't help what they attracted to according to some, so then don't punish the sick bastards sent then to the looney bin



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Title: Re: &quot;I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice...&quot;
Post by: Absurd Atheist on May 02, 2016, 11:57:32 AM
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Here's a thought, if homosexuality is not a choice then neither is pediofilia, necrophilia and beastiality.
People can't help what they attracted to according to some, so then don't punish the sick bastards sent then to the looney bin



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Quite possible but homosexuality is a form of consensual relationship. If a homosexual happens to rape a dude they still go to jail. Pedophilia can never be consensual. One is an adult the other is a child. Raping a dead body or animal can also never be consensual. Also history has shown pedophilia can at the very least be socially instituted (Greece, Japan, child marraige).
Title: Re: &quot;I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice...&quot;
Post by: shadyace on May 02, 2016, 04:53:35 PM
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Quite possible but homosexuality is a form of consensual relationship. If a homosexual happens to rape a dude they still go to jail. Pedophilia can never be consensual. One is an adult the other is a child. Raping a dead body or animal can also never be consensual. Also history has shown pedophilia can at the very least be socially instituted (Greece, Japan, child marraige).


Sorry I should have been more clear, I'm referring to the attraction not the said acts.
Title: Re: &quot;I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice...&quot;
Post by: TomFoolery on May 02, 2016, 06:03:11 PM
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Here's a thought, if homosexuality is not a choice then neither is pediofilia, necrophilia and beastiality.
People can't help what they attracted to according to some, so then don't punish the sick bastards sent then to the looney bin

As the previous poster already stated, there's a key difference when consent is involved. I personally don't care about polygamists or incestuous relationships either, as long as everyone's adults and entered into the relationships as adults. Adults can consent to anything as long as they're capable of making sound decisions.

Children, dead people, animals, none of those will ever be legally able to check the consent box. I don't hate people who are attracted to those things, just as I don't hate anyone who has any kind of impulse whether it's gambling, shoplifting, drinking, or even homicide, so long as whatever they're doing only affects them or they don't act on it.
Title: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: shadyace on May 02, 2016, 09:51:59 PM
Shoplifting and homicide are crimes and generally the results of social/economical factors.

The things I've mentioned are better off being considered developing from mental illness as it is not natural in any way.

If homosexuality is not a choice why hasn't there been proof in some sort (even brain activity) to show a difference?

Please correct me if I'm wrong, at work and cannot research anything at the moment.


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Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: TomFoolery on May 02, 2016, 10:48:44 PM
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If homosexuality is not a choice why hasn't there been proof in some sort (even brain activity) to show a difference?

Compulsive shoplifting is a mental disorder called kleptomania. They can't help it. It's an addiction. Having an addiction isn't a choice.

Furthermore, there is AMPLE evidence to suggest homosexuality isn't a choice, from epigenetic factors to evidence of it in nature across a wide variety of species including dolphins, lions, bonobos, dogs, and countless bird species etc. If sex really was only about reproduction, you would think animals wouldn't waste their time with members of the same sex. Much of the research is heavily dependent on males, but it makes sense from a biological standpoint. Men tend to be absolutely oriented toward only men or only women, whereas there is a lot more plasticity to female sexuality. Female sexuality tends to be more greatly influenced by culture, altered by positive or negative experiences, and intensified by feelings of love or attachment.

Anyway, when you look at humans, humans are social. Social species don't follow the typical model of 1. get born, 2. get old enough to breed and fast, 3. screw your brains out 4. pop out all the babies you can and finally, 5. die. If that were the case, you wouldn't think humans (females especially) would live beyond reproductive age. There's no point to having grandma stick around if she's already had a litter or two. You might argue that science has made that possible and it certainly has to a degree, but think about the long childhood of humans. It's longer than almost any other species, and intergenerational social interactions help ensure offspring live to adulthood. It takes a village, you know? And so while two gay men wouldn't reproduce with one another, they would certainly help raise and provide for nieces and nephews and their offspring.

From a biological perspective, males are extraneous but they have been beneficial enough to shuffling the alleles of a population that they are worthwhile. There are species which reproduce asexually, but they pay a heavy price for it and can only adapt to their environment though random mutations. Sexually reproducing species have the ability to shuffle genes around each generation to test out better and better combinations and to compensate for defects in particular genes through dosage compensation. If you get a crap gene from mom, as long as dad's is normal, you'll generally be fine.

But there's still a problem of ratios. Very few species are truly monogamous: it makes little evolutionary sense. But generally, all females are capable of reproducing, big or small, healthy or sick, from an evolutionary standpoint, they're all capable, and males have nothing to lose by trying to impregnate as many as possible. But the problem is they start fighting for it, and in many species males are far less likely to live to adulthood or survive as adults for long for a number of reasons. Competition between other males for territories and mates is a large factor. In many species, mothers will abandon male offspring more readily during difficult conditions. In a study of human populations, females are actually more likely to be born during times of famine or drought due to biological reasons that are still poorly understood. Also interestingly, many species have the ability to preferentially select for sex based on environment, though this is far more common in oviparous than placental mammals. Anyway, at virtually every turn, males get the short end of the stick because they have less invested in physically producing offspring than females.

That being said, raising children to adulthood is time-consuming and expensive, so evolutionary anthropologists have put forth the idea that homosexuality is beneficial as it conserves the resources that the group put into raising an equal number of males by having some pair off with each other rather than compete with and kill one another for available female mates. Studies have shown that a woman who gives birth to multiple sons has a higher chance with each pregnancy of producing gay sons due to DNA methylation and other epigenetic factors.

A lot of naysayers have liked to point to twin studies and highlight that if it were truly genetic, both twins would always have to be gay and since there are identical twins with only one being homosexual, this is impossible. Autism is undoubtedly genetic, but the ratios there aren't even close to 100% either. It's mostly likely an epigenetic phenomenon, so just like there's no one gene for intelligence or athletic ability, homosexuality has a lot to do with fetal environment, interactions between genes, and non-sequence issues like transposable elements and histone modifications.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Baruch on May 02, 2016, 11:41:33 PM
Societies decide what they can or can't tolerate.  They may use or abuse science in making their decisions.  This is done in a political context, so you can bet that any decision made (such as minimum age of consent) is crappy at best, and will only be good on random variables.  The US is moving from one crappy standard to another crappy standard, for example.  I happen to like the new crappy standard better.  Puritanism makes for terrible politics.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Blackleaf on May 03, 2016, 05:40:37 PM
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Shoplifting and homicide are crimes and generally the results of social/economical factors.

The things I've mentioned are better off being considered developing from mental illness as it is not natural in any way.

If homosexuality is not a choice why hasn't there been proof in some sort (even brain activity) to show a difference?

Please correct me if I'm wrong, at work and cannot research anything at the moment.


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Actually, there are physical differences in the brains of people who are homosexual and those who are heterosexual. I don't remember the specifics, but this has come up multiple times in my psychology courses. Certain brain structures tend to be a different size in people who are homosexual, which is evidence of a difference in "programming."
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: trdsf on May 03, 2016, 10:59:04 PM
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Shoplifting and homicide are crimes and generally the results of social/economical factors.

The things I've mentioned are better off being considered developing from mental illness as it is not natural in any way.

If homosexuality is not a choice why hasn't there been proof in some sort (even brain activity) to show a difference?

Please correct me if I'm wrong, at work and cannot research anything at the moment.
I would like to advise you that you need to find better comparisons.  You have now, in two different posts, compared homosexuality to criminal acts of one degree or another.

I think it's simple to demonstrate: On the assumption that you're heterosexual, when did you decide to be heterosexual?  Can you decide to be homosexual for a week, a month, a year?

If you didn't decide to be heterosexual, and can't/won't decide to be homosexual, that largely answers it right there.  Not a choice.  If it's a choice for gays, it must also be a choice for straights.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Blackleaf on May 04, 2016, 01:19:38 AM
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I would like to advise you that you need to find better comparisons.  You have now, in two different posts, compared homosexuality to criminal acts of one degree or another.

I think it's simple to demonstrate: On the assumption that you're heterosexual, when did you decide to be heterosexual?  Can you decide to be homosexual for a week, a month, a year?

If you didn't decide to be heterosexual, and can't/won't decide to be homosexual, that largely answers it right there.  Not a choice.  If it's a choice for gays, it must also be a choice for straights.

To be fair, there are biological contributions to all kinds of behavior, both legal and criminal. However, it is an error to treat heterosexuality as the default and lump together all other types of sexuality as deviant behaviors.
Title: Re: &quot;I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice...&quot;
Post by: shadyace on May 04, 2016, 07:46:41 AM
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I would like to advise you that you need to find better comparisons.  You have now, in two different posts, compared homosexuality to criminal acts of one degree or another.

I think it's simple to demonstrate: On the assumption that you're heterosexual, when did you decide to be heterosexual?  Can you decide to be homosexual for a week, a month, a year?

If you didn't decide to be heterosexual, and can't/won't decide to be homosexual, that largely answers it right there.  Not a choice.  If it's a choice for gays, it must also be a choice for straights.

https://76crimes.com/76-countries-where-homosexuality-is-illegal/

Homosexuality is a crime according to these countries listed in the link, so I believe my comparison is fair

Oh look  http://www.allthingscrimeblog.com/2013/07/16/bestiality-is-legal-in-the-same-states-that-ban-same-sex-marriage/ certain parts of America where bestiality is not a criminal act.


Please note
"the removal of homosexuality from the list of mental illnesses was not triggered by some scientific breakthrough.  There was no new fact or set of facts that stimulated this major change."
http://behaviorismandmentalhealth.com/2011/10/08/homosexuality-the-mental-illness-that-went-away/




Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: The Skeletal Atheist on May 04, 2016, 08:17:48 AM
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https://76crimes.com/76-countries-where-homosexuality-is-illegal/

Homosexuality is a crime according to these countries listed in the link, so I believe my comparison is fair

Oh look  http://www.allthingscrimeblog.com/2013/07/16/bestiality-is-legal-in-the-same-states-that-ban-same-sex-marriage/ certain parts of America where bestiality is not a criminal act.


Please note
"the removal of homosexuality from the list of mental illnesses was not triggered by some scientific breakthrough.  There was no new fact or set of facts that stimulated this major change."
http://behaviorismandmentalhealth.com/2011/10/08/homosexuality-the-mental-illness-that-went-away/





It's a crime in some places, that is true.

Now, please tell me why it's a crime. Why should it be criminal for consenting adults to engage in a sexual act? Before you say that homosexuals can't reproduce, I ask you to consider that the amount of heterosexuals around invalidates that concern.

Title: Re: &quot;I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice...&quot;
Post by: Blackleaf on May 04, 2016, 10:04:23 AM
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Please note
"the removal of homosexuality from the list of mental illnesses was not triggered by some scientific breakthrough.  There was no new fact or set of facts that stimulated this major change."
http://behaviorismandmentalhealth.com/2011/10/08/homosexuality-the-mental-illness-that-went-away/

Many mental illnesses are not scientifically validated. The ones that are included in the most recent version of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5) have criteria that are rather arbitrary (must have 5/9 of ___). Likely the reason that homosexuality was removed from the DSM was because it lacked one of the criteria that underlied almost every mental disorder: "causes clinically significant distress or impairment in social, academic, occupational, or other areas of functioning."
Title: Re: &quot;I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice...&quot;
Post by: trdsf on May 04, 2016, 06:53:33 PM
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https://76crimes.com/76-countries-where-homosexuality-is-illegal/

Homosexuality is a crime according to these countries listed in the link, so I believe my comparison is fair

Oh look  http://www.allthingscrimeblog.com/2013/07/16/bestiality-is-legal-in-the-same-states-that-ban-same-sex-marriage/ certain parts of America where bestiality is not a criminal act.


Please note
"the removal of homosexuality from the list of mental illnesses was not triggered by some scientific breakthrough.  There was no new fact or set of facts that stimulated this major change."
http://behaviorismandmentalhealth.com/2011/10/08/homosexuality-the-mental-illness-that-went-away/

No, it is not.  You first used non-consensual sex crimes as the comparison base, and then moved on to theft and murder.  Whether or not other nations make it illegal is irrelevant.  In Saudi Arabia it's illegal to drink.  Will you then compare anyone who has an alcoholic beverage to rapists and murderers?

Again, you need to find much more relevant comparisons.
Title: Re: &quot;I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice...&quot;
Post by: shadyace on May 04, 2016, 07:08:58 PM
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No, it is not.  You first used non-consensual sex crimes as the comparison base, and then moved on to theft and murder.  Whether or not other nations make it illegal is irrelevant.  In Saudi Arabia it's illegal to drink.  Will you then compare anyone who has an alcoholic beverage to rapists and murderers?

Again, you need to find much more relevant comparisons.


"Shoplifting and homicide are crimes and generally the results of social/economical factors.

The things I've mentioned are better off being considered developing from mental illness as it is not natural in any way."


Read properly and stop changing other's words to suit your own agenda. Until then good day.
Title: Re: &quot;I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice...&quot;
Post by: trdsf on May 04, 2016, 08:05:23 PM
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"Shoplifting and homicide are crimes and generally the results of social/economical factors.

The things I've mentioned are better off being considered developing from mental illness as it is not natural in any way."


Read properly and stop changing other's words to suit your own agenda. Until then good day.
I haven't changed one word you've said.  Your comparisons, not mine.  You're still making comparisons to the clinically abnormal (at best) rather than the merely different.

You also never did address my challenge to "choose" an orientation different than your current one.  Or the point about laws.

If you really don't see the issue here, honestly, you have a serious perspective issue, and the only thing that you've convinced me of is that there's a layer of homophobia lurking within you somewhere.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Baruch on May 04, 2016, 08:36:24 PM
What is the purpose of society?  What is the purpose of government?  What is the purpose of law?  Why are some things illegal and others are not?

These are very big questions, that impact the OP ... as to what should or should not be done about homosexuality.

Merely having parasitical arrangements with your fellow humans, is not a good society.  Merely having an authoritarian organization tell you what do do, is not a good government.  Merely using law to enforce bigotry and discrimination and sadism ... is not good law.  Find what is good, and then it will be clear if existing laws make sense or not.  Starting at the opposite end, with existing non-sense will only confuse you.
Title: Re: &quot;I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice...&quot;
Post by: Mike Cl on May 04, 2016, 08:44:43 PM
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The things I've mentioned are better off being considered developing from mental illness as it is not natural in any way."

Am I reading this statement to mean that homosexuality is not natural?
Title: Re: &quot;I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice...&quot;
Post by: Shukhov on May 05, 2016, 02:34:37 AM
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Am I reading this statement to mean that homosexuality is not natural?

It would appear so but I could be wrong. If I'm right it is false statement - humans are part of nature so homosexuality is natural. No need to mention that it happens among other animals too (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_displaying_homosexual_behavior).
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: widdershins on May 06, 2016, 02:06:55 PM
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"Shoplifting and homicide are crimes and generally the results of social/economical factors.

The things I've mentioned are better off being considered developing from mental illness as it is not natural in any way."


Read properly and stop changing other's words to suit your own agenda. Until then good day.
Man, am I glad that I am not going to get a chance to know you before you're banned for being a bigoted asshat.

On a side note, I assume that if I find a single country where Christianity is illegal you would find it fair for me to compare Christians to horse rapists, right?  It is, after all, your argument style.
Title: Re: &quot;I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice...&quot;
Post by: Absurd Atheist on May 13, 2016, 10:10:02 AM
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Sorry I should have been more clear, I'm referring to the attraction not the said acts.

I believe the same argument applies their attraction is still consensual as it's not considered possible for children, animals or dead people to give such consent. Simultaneously I don't think people are punished for their sexual attraction unless they act on it, or turn themselves in for fear that they'll act on it. The entire issue is the weight of consent between living human adults. As well as natural genetics.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Michael M Perez on August 10, 2016, 04:47:22 AM
yes it is for the individual to decide. The choice is theirs
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Mike Cl on August 10, 2016, 08:39:46 AM
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yes it is for the individual to decide. The choice is theirs
Homosexuality is not a choice--it is your biology.  One does not wake up one day and 'decide' to be homosexual.  Yes, there are those who are heterosexual who experiment sexually with the same sex--but they are not homosexual only hetro's  engaging in what is termed 'homosexual' behavior. 
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: trdsf on August 22, 2016, 07:54:19 PM
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Homosexuality is not a choice--it is your biology.  One does not wake up one day and 'decide' to be homosexual.  Yes, there are those who are heterosexual who experiment sexually with the same sex--but they are not homosexual only hetro's  engaging in what is termed 'homosexual' behavior.
I'm still waiting for one of those "it's a choice" people to 'prove' it by deciding to be actively gay for a year.  Just claiming to be gay isn't enough.  Pictures or it didn't happen.

I think I'm likely to wait for a very long time...
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: widdershins on August 25, 2016, 12:22:13 PM
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yes it is for the individual to decide. The choice is theirs
I am a straight man.  It is utterly IMPOSSIBLE for me to be sexually attracted to men.  It is further IMPOSSIBLE for me not to be sexually attracted to women.  Now, I could "choose" to engage in homosexual acts.  I could even potentially enjoy some homosexual acts.  But the entire time I would be wishing it were a woman because I cannot "choose" to be sexually attracted to men instead of women.  Yes, I could "choose" a lifestyle in which I only had sex with men.  But that would not make me homosexual because I would STILL only be sexually attracted to women.  We cannot "choose" what we find attractive.

And that is where you are confused.  You are confusing "sexually attracted to people of the same sex" with "having sex with people of the same sex".  Homosexual men who "choose" to only be with women, they don't stop being gay.  They're still gay.  Being gay isn't about who you have sex with, it's about who you're sexually attracted to.  I could choose to have homosexual sex, but I could never actually be "gay".  And I don't want to have sex with men because it is not appealing to me.  I am not sexually attracted to men.  Now take that thought and reverse it and you'll know how a very gay man feels about having sex with women.  Yes, he could "choose" to do it, but it just doesn't turn him on because, like it or not, regardless the choices he may make, he is gay.  That is a thing that simply is and there is no choice involved.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Feral Atheist on October 13, 2016, 11:03:12 AM
The OP "believes" it is a choice.... OK, but like many other things that is only a belief.

People believe in all sorts of things.... there are thousands of gods people believe in... children believe in Santa, Tooth Fairy, and monsters under the bed.  People believe in creation, Noah's Ark, the Illuminati, that the moon landing was faked, UFO's, ghosts, demons, big foot, leprechauns and millions of other nonsense things, all without fact and often counter to fact.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Cavebear on October 26, 2016, 08:24:11 AM
Sexuality is a choice like hair color is a choice.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: drunkenshoe on October 26, 2016, 08:49:15 AM
OP doesn't believe it is a choice. I haven't seen her posting about any belief here at all. She posted about someone who does and posted that here for the constant flow of morons who kept dropping and started with 'buts' and other bullshit and finally arrive to this point of 'choice'.

We are not having them that often anymore, but before the legalisation of marriage for everyone, they were pretty nauseating.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Cavebear on October 26, 2016, 10:15:20 AM
Annoying ideas disappear every day.  Science keeps ruining them.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Cavebear on November 13, 2016, 04:13:46 AM
Why is this Pinned?  I don't see a reason.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Munch on November 13, 2016, 05:18:43 AM
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Why is this Pinned?  I don't see a reason.

think it was an accident at the time, but whenever this debate of another religious nut claim people choose to be gay, its handier then making a new thread on it.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Cavebear on November 17, 2016, 06:46:34 AM
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think it was an accident at the time, but whenever this debate of another religious nut claim people choose to be gay, its handier then making a new thread on it.

There are too many people who cant tell the difference between choice and genetics.  I can choose between Liberal and Conservative politics; between carnivorous, omnivorous, and vegan.  But I can't really choose the gender I am attracted to.  For me it is "the other one", LOL but that was never a deliberate choice.  As it is not with some people tending the opposite way.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Munch on November 17, 2016, 12:52:50 PM
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There are too many people who cant tell the difference between choice and genetics.  I can choose between Liberal and Conservative politics; between carnivorous, omnivorous, and vegan.  But I can't really choose the gender I am attracted to.  For me it is "the other one", LOL but that was never a deliberate choice.  As it is not with some people tending the opposite way.

The funny thing is I've been confronted by people, sometimes old workmates in prior jobs, who when finding out I was gay respond with "oh, for how long for?" or "Oh, why did you choose to do that?", I always respond to the "for the same reason you choose to be straight", stumping them, and maybe even making them realize its not a choice.. but really I doubt it would enlighten some people.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Cavebear on December 02, 2016, 05:17:20 AM
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The funny thing is I've been confronted by people, sometimes old workmates in prior jobs, who when finding out I was gay respond with "oh, for how long for?" or "Oh, why did you choose to do that?", I always respond to the "for the same reason you choose to be straight", stumping them, and maybe even making them realize its not a choice.. but really I doubt it would enlighten some people.

I do have to admit I'm not sure when sexual attraction starts.  If it it isn't from birth, I wonder when it is?  Not a theory, just an uncertainity.  *I* don't know when I was first attracted to girls, just that one day I wasn't and one day I was.  I assume it is the same for gays and lesbians. 

To be honest, I don't understand it.  But no skin off MY nose...
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Munch on December 02, 2016, 06:13:43 AM
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I do have to admit I'm not sure when sexual attraction starts.  If it it isn't from birth, I wonder when it is?  Not a theory, just an uncertainity.  *I* don't know when I was first attracted to girls, just that one day I wasn't and one day I was.  I assume it is the same for gays and lesbians. 

To be honest, I don't understand it.  But no skin off MY nose...

I'm not against the idea of development playing a part in what we find interesting or attractive, I know what I find a turn on, and a turn off, within the spectrum of people out there. I don't find young skinny hairless guys appealing at all, I'm the other end with big hairy mature guys, and I'm certain that developed from somewhere maybe experiences. That said, I consider what we find attractive and what were are sexually as two separate things.

I think of it like a painting, we paint a picture and make whatever we can of it based on our developed style and experiences. But the paint and canvas itself is the font all that goes onto, our sexuality is the paint/canvas, the painting at the end is whatever we've experienced coming out.


(also, I looooooove guys with long thick hair https://vtt.tumblr.com/tumblr_nroubabwHa1t6hi70.mp4 Roar!! )
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Cavebear on December 02, 2016, 06:39:06 AM
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I'm not against the idea of development playing a part in what we find interesting or attractive, I know what I find a turn on, and a turn off, within the spectrum of people out there. I don't find young skinny hairless guys appealing at all, I'm the other end with big hairy mature guys, and I'm certain that developed from somewhere maybe experiences. That said, I consider what we find attractive and what were are sexually as two separate things.

I think of it like a painting, we paint a picture and make whatever we can of it based on our developed style and experiences. But the paint and canvas itself is the font all that goes onto, our sexuality is the paint/canvas, the painting at the end is whatever we've experienced coming out.


(also, I looooooove guys with long thick hair https://vtt.tumblr.com/tumblr_nroubabwHa1t6hi70.mp4 Roar!! )

I think I will pass on that link, LOL!  But whatever suits you is fine. 
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Munch on December 02, 2016, 07:31:55 AM
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I think I will pass on that link, LOL!  But whatever suits you is fine.

its basically a video of this guys.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMdgTukCgAI
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Cavebear on December 02, 2016, 08:03:33 AM
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its basically a video of this guys.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMdgTukCgAI

Looks like someone I would want backing me up in a bar fight.  But that would assume I was ever in a bar...  And I wouldn't get near one.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Aletheia on December 03, 2016, 01:06:46 AM
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The OP "believes" it is a choice.... OK, but like many other things that is only a belief.

People believe in all sorts of things.... there are thousands of gods people believe in... children believe in Santa, Tooth Fairy, and monsters under the bed.  People believe in creation, Noah's Ark, the Illuminati, that the moon landing was faked, UFO's, ghosts, demons, big foot, leprechauns and millions of other nonsense things, all without fact and often counter to fact.

The OP doesn't believe it's a choice, rather I was discussing a conversation I had with those who made the assumption that it was a choice, when in reality a person has no say in their sexual orientation.

My stance is, and has always been, that sexual orientation is an emergent property based on our biology, and we are completely unable to control it. All anyone can do is suppress the expression of sexual preferences, and even then, that can have some devastating consequences.

The only part the jury is really out on this issue is when sexual orientation begins to manifest in a human being. Infancy? Childhood? Adolescence? Was it written in our genes from the beginning? The sooner we find these answers, the more we can learn about ourselves as species and the sooner we can put to rest the idea that sexual orientation is a choice, lifestyle, or whatever else people want to call it these days.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Blackleaf on December 05, 2016, 10:51:20 AM
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The OP doesn't believe it's a choice, rather I was discussing a conversation I had with those who made the assumption that it was a choice, when in reality a person has no say in their sexual orientation.

My stance is, and has always been, that sexual orientation is an emergent property based on our biology, and we are completely unable to control it. All anyone can do is suppress the expression of sexual preferences, and even then, that can have some devastating consequences.

The only part the jury is really out on this issue is when sexual orientation begins to manifest in a human being. Infancy? Childhood? Adolescence? Was it written in our genes from the beginning? The sooner we find these answers, the more we can learn about ourselves as species and the sooner we can put to rest the idea that sexual orientation is a choice, lifestyle, or whatever else people want to call it these days.

The problem is that theists (particularly Christians and Muslims) don't want to learn. Many of them still believe that the Earth is a few thousand years old.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Munch on December 05, 2016, 11:39:35 AM
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The problem is that theists (particularly Christians and Muslims) don't want to learn. Many of them still believe that the Earth is a few thousand years old.

after watching the making of gods not dead, aside from it being the creepiest making of documentary I've seen, its also clear Christians like those that made the movie or starred in it don't perceive reality, or just flat out lie while convincing themselves its the truth, such as saying to kevin sorbo "you played the most accurate portrayal of an atheist I've ever seen", yeah, that killed a few brain cells just hearing it.
Same goes for religious people who regard gays in the same light, they convince themselves all gays are demon spawn, when the irony is I could lump every christian and muslim on an idea who thinks this about gays, while they could not manage more then a tiny percent of gays who were anything like they claim.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Cavebear on January 01, 2017, 04:20:53 AM
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The problem is that theists (particularly Christians and Muslims) don't want to learn. Many of them still believe that the Earth is a few thousand years old.

I would reverse the premise.  It isn't that Christians and Muslims don't want to learn, it is that those who don't learn BECOME Christians and Muslims (and whatevers).  Ignorance comes first, religion follows the ignorance...
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Blackleaf on January 01, 2017, 10:00:08 AM
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I would reverse the premise.  It isn't that Christians and Muslims don't want to learn, it is that those who don't learn BECOME Christians and Muslims (and whatevers).  Ignorance comes first, religion follows the ignorance...

Ignorance is also what keeps them in religion. Why do you think they feel the need to gather one or more times a week to sing songs and listen to a sermon? It's to reinforce their ridiculous ideas and wash away any doubts. They are programmed to think certain ways, and are often equipped with arguments that seem flawless to them, but never work in the real world. Knowledge is the enemy of religion. If they allow themselves to think outside of their box, their programming falls apart.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Munch on January 01, 2017, 10:32:44 AM
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Ignorance is also what keeps them in religion. Why do you think they feel the need to gather one or more times a week to sing songs and listen to a sermon? It's to reinforce their ridiculous ideas and wash away any doubts. They are programmed to think certain ways, and are often equipped with arguments that seem flawless to them, but never work in the real world. Knowledge is the enemy of religion. If they allow themselves to think outside of their box, their programming falls apart.

Its also why they have confession boxes, so its followers start to actually wake up to the idea that maybe what there in following is crap, like the growth of awareness in their minds, the priest in the confession box can hammer them back in with their dogma and keep them from realizing that their in a cult.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Baruch on January 01, 2017, 12:13:04 PM
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Ignorance is also what keeps them in religion. Why do you think they feel the need to gather one or more times a week to sing songs and listen to a sermon? It's to reinforce their ridiculous ideas and wash away any doubts. They are programmed to think certain ways, and are often equipped with arguments that seem flawless to them, but never work in the real world. Knowledge is the enemy of religion. If they allow themselves to think outside of their box, their programming falls apart.

Operative reinforcement is both very old and very new.  It is the basis of "habit".  Most people don't think ... a fact, don't know why.  I always liked thinking.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Baruch on January 01, 2017, 12:14:37 PM
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Its also why they have confession boxes, so its followers start to actually wake up to the idea that maybe what there in following is crap, like the growth of awareness in their minds, the priest in the confession box can hammer them back in with their dogma and keep them from realizing that their in a cult.

This is also how old time domestic intel worked, they couldn't hack your Facebook account.  The priest told the king what the king needed to know.  Your confession was private and secret .. sure.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Munch on January 01, 2017, 12:42:54 PM
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This is also how old time domestic intel worked, they couldn't hack your Facebook account.  The priest told the king what the king needed to know.  Your confession was private and secret .. sure.

Ah yes. Though there are no kings in America, but did they report to the president? :)
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Baruch on January 01, 2017, 03:47:43 PM
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Ah yes. Though there are no kings in America, but did they report to the president? :)

No, to the Vatican ... and then the Pope reports to his counterparts at the Bilderberger meeting.  Not efficient communication to be sure, but that is stove-pipe organization for you.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Munch on January 01, 2017, 04:28:11 PM
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No, to the Vatican ... and then the Pope reports to his counterparts at the Bilderberger meeting.  Not efficient communication to be sure, but that is stove-pipe organization for you.

And that was when Isambard Kingdom Brunel invented a steam powered anti Vatican assault weapon.

 
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Baruch on January 01, 2017, 09:17:47 PM
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And that was when Isambard Kingdom Brunel invented a steam powered anti Vatican assault weapon.

 

I like Steampunk as an idea.  As a computer guy I would want to read ...
https://www.amazon.com/Difference-Engine-William-Gibson/dp/0440423627
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: OldFaithful on January 29, 2017, 05:49:29 PM
No is not a choice. Good God provide free will in many aspect. But sexual is inherit together with life actions/education/raised by parents or figures of authorities.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Baruch on January 29, 2017, 07:46:14 PM
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No is not a choice. Good God provide free will in many aspect. But sexual is inherit together with life actions/education/raised by parents or figures of authorities.

Regardless of our orientation, we all make choices to act or not act on our orientation.  So we are responsible for the most important part of it.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Shiranu on January 29, 2017, 08:10:33 PM
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Regardless of our orientation, we all make choices to act or not act on our orientation.  So we are responsible for the most important part of it.

And what is more important? To destroy yourself with guilt over something outside your control so that sky daddy isn't upset? To sacrifice your own happiness not for love of your god, but for fear? To harm yourself is more important than to at the very least seek forgiveness for your transgressions?

Those who sacrifice from their own lives in the name of God, right or wrong, out of their own choice or love deserve the utmost respect. But to have your own life sacrificed, to sacrifice the life of your child or friend, because you are afraid? That the all loving creator will smite you because you are disgusting in his eyes? There is nothing divine, nothing beautiful about this...

No, if your god sees you as disgusting because of how you, made in his own image looks... then no amount of sacrifice can save you. It is not "you" but him that is the flawed, vile creature.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Munch on January 29, 2017, 09:03:12 PM
Baruch was simply saying that whatever our sexuality, the way we grow up effects our outlook, on many different variables. A gay man growing up in the middle east will be raised to believe being gay is something disgusting and wrong in name of his faith, and so keeps it hidden from the world, suffering from those withdrawal from his nature. A gay woman raised in a conservative household strikes out against her parents wanting her to be 'normal', and she only finds solace away from it, developing a negative option of what family means.
A trans man or woman grows up wanting to be different, but only finds it in drag shows, and so develops a character around their own identity as a stage performer.

The point he is making, is that we do not just come out of a box when we are born, we have the makeup in our genes, but how we develop depends on our environment. I once went on a date with a guy who worked as a monk in a church, he was very withdrawn and unable to really express any feelings outside of his own indoctrination, and while it was sad to me, he said it made it happy. If that was true or not is another thing entirely, but clearly it was how he was raised.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Shiranu on January 29, 2017, 09:36:07 PM
Quote
Baruch was simply saying that whatever our sexuality, the way we grow up effects our outlook, on many different variables.

Quote
Regardless of our orientation, we all make choices to act or not act on our orientation. So we are responsible for the most important part of it.

You are extrapolating a shitload out of that statement, and I cannot for the life of me figure out why. He simply said nothing about growing up, the effects it has, or our outlooks. All he said was that the most important part, action, is what we are responsible for, to which I disagree.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Munch on January 29, 2017, 10:04:41 PM
We are responsible for our own actions through, since it comes down to what we end up making of ourselves. No one chooses their orientation, but they choose to accept what's in their nature or deny it.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Shiranu on January 29, 2017, 10:10:02 PM
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We are responsible for our own actions through, since it comes down to what we end up making of ourselves. No one chooses their orientation, but they choose to accept what's in their nature or deny it.

Which is not at all contrary to what I said, since it's dealing with two completely different train of thoughts... nor is it consistent to what he actually said. If that's what you are saying, that is perfectly fine and I agree with it, but it has nothing to do with what Bauruch said.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Michael M Perez on January 29, 2017, 11:38:18 PM
There you have a strong point. I agree with you
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Baruch on January 30, 2017, 12:20:01 AM
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And what is more important? To destroy yourself with guilt over something outside your control so that sky daddy isn't upset? To sacrifice your own happiness not for love of your god, but for fear? To harm yourself is more important than to at the very least seek forgiveness for your transgressions?

Those who sacrifice from their own lives in the name of God, right or wrong, out of their own choice or love deserve the utmost respect. But to have your own life sacrificed, to sacrifice the life of your child or friend, because you are afraid? That the all loving creator will smite you because you are disgusting in his eyes? There is nothing divine, nothing beautiful about this...

No, if your god sees you as disgusting because of how you, made in his own image looks... then no amount of sacrifice can save you. It is not "you" but him that is the flawed, vile creature.

Yes, repression can have negative effects.  Sometimes we need to suppress, sometimes not.  And in many places, it is too dangerous to come out of the closet.  Putting self liberation above prudence, let alone safety ... is exhibitionism.  Of course, if one is saying, that people by determinism or whatever, are never responsible for what they do ... then you have a point, that I can't agree with.  But we are not responsible for our feelings ... those are emotions, not cogitations.
Title: Re: &quot;I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice...&quot;
Post by: MooHamHead on January 30, 2017, 09:44:33 PM
I always asks the choicers how old they were when they chose.  I mean you must have been thinking ....damn I like that guy's ass and I like that girl's ass, which too choose, which too chose......then I call them a faggot or a lesbo laugh at them and walk off.

Sent from my SM-T520 using Tapatalk
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Baruch on January 30, 2017, 11:09:47 PM
My first kiss with a girl was in 2nd grade ... she initiated.  I still love Judy, Judy, Judy ...
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Cavebear on January 31, 2017, 02:42:15 PM
I don't like myself for this, but I suspect that homosexuality (when not a deliberate erotic choice) is some neurological malfunction in fetal development. 

That doesn't mean it is a choice, that doesn't mean it can be "cured", it is what someone really wants.  Its just so...  anti-evolutionary!  And I have trouble getting my mind around that.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: TrueStory on January 31, 2017, 02:47:41 PM
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I don't like myself for this, but I suspect that homosexuality (when not a deliberate erotic choice) is some neurological malfunction in fetal development. 

That doesn't mean it is a choice, that doesn't mean it can be "cured", it is what someone really wants.  Its just so...  anti-evolutionary!  And I have trouble getting my mind around that.
It's not anti-evolutionary at all.   When resources are scarce or competition is great, helping out your own parents when you already have siblings still helps your overall fitness genetically as you share so many genes with close family that get passed on.  It happens in multiple bird species and apparently in humans past as well. 
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Cavebear on January 31, 2017, 03:01:01 PM
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It's not anti-evolutionary at all.   When resources are scarce or competition is great, helping out your own parents when you already have siblings still helps your overall fitness genetically as you share so many genes with close family that get passed on.  It happens in multiple bird species and apparently in humans past as well.

Many animals help out the breeding pair without becoming homosexual.  I watch nature shows too.  That's a weak argument. (in my view).
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: TrueStory on January 31, 2017, 03:59:41 PM
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Many animals help out the breeding pair without becoming homosexual.  I watch nature shows too.  That's a weak argument. (in my view).
Well maybe you should try getting your information outside of a nature show.
Nothing you've said even addresses the topic.  No reason to list off things we're not talking about.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Baruch on January 31, 2017, 08:01:22 PM
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I don't like myself for this, but I suspect that homosexuality (when not a deliberate erotic choice) is some neurological malfunction in fetal development. 

That doesn't mean it is a choice, that doesn't mean it can be "cured", it is what someone really wants.  Its just so...  anti-evolutionary!  And I have trouble getting my mind around that.

Evolution means I get big muscles, brain you, take your girl.  Evolution is great, if you are Schwartzenegger.  Also that beefcake ... so so gay!
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Munch on January 31, 2017, 08:34:52 PM
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Evolution means I get big muscles, brain you, take your girl.  Evolution is great, if you are Schwartzenegger.  Also that beefcake ... so so gay!

There was a time, in my youth, I wished he was. Then i learned he wasn't that great a character behind the muscles.

Theres day, i look elsewhere.

(http://static.gaywave.it/gaywave/fotogallery/625X0/7113/carlo-masi.jpg)
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Baruch on January 31, 2017, 09:51:07 PM
This is why the newer TV Hercules, had a kind of ... relationship with his sidekick, Iolas.  I thought that show and Xena were very liberating.  Though I was more attracted to Gabriel.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Munch on February 01, 2017, 06:46:29 AM
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This is why the newer TV Hercules, had a kind of ... relationship with his sidekick, Iolas.  I thought that show and Xena were very liberating.  Though I was more attracted to Gabriel.

Said hercules went on to star in gods not dead and acted how he thought atheists were like, malicious and crazy. He lost most credibility at that stage.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Cavebear on February 05, 2017, 06:30:53 AM
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Evolution means I get big muscles, brain you, take your girl.  Evolution is great, if you are Schwartzenegger.  Also that beefcake ... so so gay!

It also means that I learn to out-think you, act equally toward women and mothers, and help raise children to become equally-thinking and inventive adults.  While you are out there getting stepped on by Mammoths to prove your he-man status.  ;)
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Munch on February 05, 2017, 08:09:42 AM
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It also means that I learn to out-think you, act equally toward women and mothers, and help raise children to become equally-thinking and inventive adults.  While you are out there getting stepped on by Mammoths to prove your he-man status.  ;)

Pfffff, please, I got no interest in raising kids.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Cavebear on February 05, 2017, 08:32:22 AM
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Pfffff, please, I got no interest in raising kids.

Neither do I, but the neighbors are sure to raise some of the little rug-rats, LOL!  So it matters to all of us.  Even us rug-ratless ones are affected!
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Baruch on February 05, 2017, 09:45:18 AM
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It also means that I learn to out-think you, act equally toward women and mothers, and help raise children to become equally-thinking and inventive adults.  While you are out there getting stepped on by Mammoths to prove your he-man status.  ;)

Yes, Democrats, even more so, Liberal Democrats .. are the master race.  So fascist.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: doorknob on February 08, 2017, 01:04:57 AM
Well Some people don't figure out their sexuality even into late adult hood. A guy I went to school with my best friend and I had threesomes with. Years after graduating we met again and well he was flaming. Also I was in the hospital and there was this lesbian who tried to kill herself because her girlfriend was a bitch. She said she was thinking about giving men a try. I told her it really didn't matter what gender she dated both are equally capable of stomping all over your heart so be careful. I don't know if she ended up with a man after that or not as I was discharged and didn't see her again.

there's more to sexuality then just instincts. But I also don't think you wake up one day and choose to be gay. I think it's more like you realize you are gay. as for going in the reverse direction I have no answers for. I have seen a few albeit not many gay people who later in life became straight. So it may be psychological for some people even if we don't want to admit it but I wouldn't call it a choice.

Nor do I think that homosexuals should suppress their desires and sexual needs for some god. Every one has a right to have a relationship and sex as a part of that relationship gay or straight. I feel that sex and love should be human rights. Every one has a right to find a relationship they feel comfortable in.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Munch on February 08, 2017, 07:45:44 PM
Sexuality is complex thing. It comes down to biology (that being what we naturally want to do, whats in our instincts) and personality (the part of us shaped by environment, upbringing, social order, per-pressure).
People are shaped on what they have in them to do, and what they are shaped by around them, so its kind of that struggle between internal and external parts of us. Like the young gay muslim wants to kiss the hot man before him, but doing so would have he pelted with rocks by the religious faith dominating the world around him, or the woman married to a man all her life, living a lie, wanting to be herself and see women, but afraid of being alone if she does.

Its also complex in that sexuality isn't just a three card system, rather it can have many different variants and shades, it isn't set on just one, as many people might want to experiment, might want to go between different kinds of people, try all things, try and mixture. There are no real standards to it, despite what most of society has already declared it to be.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Sorginak on February 12, 2017, 12:59:16 AM
Sexuality exists on a fluid spectrum.  We see it in nature.

Gay, straight, bisexual, these are the least of our concerns in a world full of strife. 
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Cavebear on February 13, 2017, 05:18:46 AM
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Sexuality exists on a fluid spectrum.  We see it in nature.

Gay, straight, bisexual, these are the least of our concerns in a world full of strife.

I took me 60 years to understand that.  Now I really don't care.  I suppose that is an improvement.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: marom1963 on February 21, 2017, 03:51:18 AM
I would like one of these people who think that being gay is a choice to take a hit for the team and become gay - you know, just to prove that it can be done. Also, don't they realize that, if being gay is a choice, so is being straight? So, it should be easy to become gay and prove to all the World that we're wrong about homosexuality being innate. Anyone willing to step up to the plate? All you have to do is become really gay and stay that way for, oh, ten years and have lots of sex w/members of your own sex. Then you can switch back to straight, if you want. But, for those ten years, you've got to be as gay as gay can get, and you've got to march in Gay Pride parades and be a spokesman/woman for Gay Liberation - go the whole nine yards. Then, voila, you're straight again! Come on, somebody, take up the challenge for team Homophobia!
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Baruch on February 21, 2017, 06:57:34 AM
The most homophobic ... are usually closeted gays.  See J Edgar Hoover.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Munch on February 21, 2017, 08:14:48 AM
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The most homophobic ... are usually closeted gays.  See J Edgar Hoover.

I dunno, should we open those flood gates?
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: pr126 on February 21, 2017, 09:31:26 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlqXgXwzkPg
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Munch on February 21, 2017, 10:19:38 AM
Shall I tell you, serious here for a moment. Something the scares me more then the prospect of war or being in a room with a nest of spiders, something that causes me to shudder when I think about its implications, is how ignorance, when it shrouds people so much, they can't see the enemy when stood in front of them, because of their own beliefs, to the point of it being insidious.

The best example of this, is the moment in the womens march in washingston, when the bitch with the loud speaker, screamed out allahu akbar, surrounded by women, who are so FUCKING CLUELESS, to what islam represents to the western world, how it is a cult that subjegates women, forces children to marry adult men, and for me, the most terrifying thing, how the vast majority of islamic followers believe gays should be executed, or arrested, or 'turned straight'. And what just boils over with rage for me, is how these 'progressive' people in the west, have let this evil cult infest into their protests, not questioning it, and even now allowing it to be the face of their organisation.

(http://truthfeed.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/linda-sarsour-sharia-law-800x416.png)

These stupid, tunnel visioned, virtue signalling dimwits, are so focused on hating the current president of the united states, they would side with people, that want to subjugate them, beat them, and execute them. With this is happening, you make Trump look like the good guy in comparison.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Baruch on February 21, 2017, 01:05:13 PM
Women Black Shirts wanted to help Hitler liberate England too.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Baruch on February 21, 2017, 01:07:10 PM
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I dunno, should we open those flood gates?

Not all closeted gays, are homophobic.  Just the most vociferous of them .. see many examples.  Especially conservative preachers ;-)  I would be happy to see homophobes waterboarded until they admit they are gay, and just hypocritical and monstrous.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Cavebear on February 23, 2017, 04:15:13 AM
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Not all closeted gays, are homophobic.  Just the most vociferous of them .. see many examples.  Especially conservative preachers ;-)  I would be happy to see homophobes waterboarded until they admit they are gay, and just hypocritical and monstrous.

And then there are those who just really don't give a crap about all the fuss. 
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Baruch on February 23, 2017, 06:41:02 AM
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And then there are those who just really don't give a crap about all the fuss.

You mustn't work in public sanitation.  For them, crap is their main interest, that an piss.  Good thing there are bacteria we can train to process that, or you could keep your night soil in your chamber pot at home ;-)
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Cavebear on February 23, 2017, 07:33:06 AM
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You mustn't work in public sanitation.  For them, crap is their main interest, that an piss.  Good thing there are bacteria we can train to process that, or you could keep your night soil in your chamber pot at home ;-)

Another non-sequitur from the most annoying practitioner of it...
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Baruch on February 23, 2017, 12:43:44 PM
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Another non-sequitur from the most annoying practitioner of it...

I am only telling the truth.  If you don't like the truth, stick to MSNBC.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Cavebear on February 26, 2017, 11:20:12 AM
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I am only telling the truth.  If you don't like the truth, stick to MSNBC.

The POINT was that my use of the term "crap" had nothing to do with actual sewage-processing and you KNOW that.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Baruch on February 26, 2017, 12:14:25 PM
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The POINT was that my use of the term "crap" had nothing to do with actual sewage-processing and you KNOW that.

I know lots of things.  Even where bears take a crap ;-)  I guess Atheistforums.com is part of the "woods". ;-))
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Cavebear on February 26, 2017, 12:34:09 PM
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I know lots of things.  Even where bears take a crap ;-)  I guess Atheistforums.com is part of the "woods". ;-))

No, Baruch, this isn't where I choose to "go".  I'm not here for therapy, so back off a bit.

On the other paw, drink "'Bear Whiz Beer'.  It's in the water son, that's why it's yellow"...
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Snowblo on February 27, 2017, 06:30:35 AM
Sex is for perverts, sex and twisted minds is a choice overall. But i dont care honestly if you like male on male or female on male action, just dont be a perv.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Baruch on February 27, 2017, 07:12:46 AM
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Sex is for perverts, sex and twisted minds is a choice overall. But i dont care honestly if you like male on male or female on male action, just dont be a perv.

I prefer to screw roadkill, while in Second Life.  So does that trigger you? ;-))
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Snowblo on February 27, 2017, 07:32:07 AM
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I prefer to screw roadkill, while in Second Life.  So does that trigger you? ;-))
Yes, but i'll ignore it.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Munch on February 27, 2017, 11:15:57 AM
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Sex is for perverts, sex and twisted minds is a choice overall. But i dont care honestly if you like male on male or female on male action, just dont be a perv.

Apparently anything related to sex is perverted to you. Funny thing that the catholic church preaches this same thing, while raping choir boys in the basement.

And its not perversion. If you understand the definition.

Quote
perversion
pəˈvəːʃ(ə)n/Submit
noun
1.
distortion or corruption of the original course, meaning, or state of something.

Since its purely subjective, the only one with the problem is yourself. Now in examples of how children are not sexually matured creatures, then then it is a perversion to put children in a situation involving something sexual. However, between consenting adults at maturity, it is the natural order of things.

Or does the way nature work seem like a preservation to you as well?
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Mr.Obvious on February 27, 2017, 11:27:57 AM
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Sex is for perverts, sex and twisted minds is a choice overall. But i dont care honestly if you like male on male or female on male action, just dont be a perv.

I'm no psychologist, but I gotta say: with Every post you make, it seems to me, more and more, that you are overcompensating for something.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Mike Cl on February 27, 2017, 02:23:09 PM
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Sex is for perverts, sex and twisted minds is a choice overall. But i dont care honestly if you like male on male or female on male action, just dont be a perv.
Sounds to me you are the pervert.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Cavebear on March 02, 2017, 09:05:28 AM
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I'm no psychologist, but I gotta say: with Every post you make, it seems to me, more and more, that you are overcompensating for something.

If sex is a perversion, your line will die out.  Assuming your sexual activities aren't occasionally procreative.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Aletheia on June 17, 2017, 09:20:06 PM
I see our quality in trolls has really went down hill. I'll say it again, you can't leave them caged together, they'll start to breed, then inbreed, and the quality of jokes just suffer. Remember the good ol' days when we had more diversity in the visiting troll population?
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Cavebear on June 18, 2017, 02:14:00 AM
Ack!  Talk about a joke that went flat!  I apologize.  I had been up 36 hours and what I thought was a good sarcastic reply (at the time) just went off into weirdland...
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Baruch on June 18, 2017, 09:08:32 AM
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If sex is a perversion, your line will die out.  Assuming your sexual activities aren't occasionally procreative.

I see you were making a joke.  But in fact it is unnecessary to propagate your species, your line ... or bad jokes ;-)
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: SoldierofFortune on August 07, 2017, 02:19:16 PM
Homosexuals are natural born homosexuals, In the puberty they disvocer that they like men...
I havent choosen to be a man and
havent decided what if i like woman or not.
Since the time i am aware of myself, i like women.
I mean i havent choosen or decided what if i like woman or not.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Baruch on August 07, 2017, 06:43:06 PM
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Homosexuals are natural born homosexuals, In the puberty they disvocer that they like men...
I havent choosen to be a man and
havent decided what if i like woman or not.
Since the time i am aware of myself, i like women.
I mean i havent choosen or decided what if i like woman or not.

Some people have low libido.  This isn't a bad thing, it prevents many ugly mistakes.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Cavebear on August 09, 2017, 03:31:22 AM
Why is this pinned?  I think it is time to let it go.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Munch on August 09, 2017, 06:09:45 AM
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Some people have low libido.  This isn't a bad thing, it prevents many ugly mistakes.

When two gay men make an ugly mistake, its only an STD. When a man and woman make an ugly mistake, it can be an std or a baby.
my sympathies.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Mike Cl on August 09, 2017, 10:46:11 AM
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When two gay men make an ugly mistake, its only an STD. When a man and woman make an ugly mistake, it can be an std or a baby.
my sympathies.
The thing is--STD's generally are curable, babies not so much.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Baruch on August 09, 2017, 01:17:29 PM
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The thing is--STD's generally are curable, babies not so much.

Abortion and infant exposure cure it.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Mike Cl on August 09, 2017, 03:31:42 PM
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Abortion and infant exposure cure it.
abortion--before or after birth???
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Cavebear on August 09, 2017, 03:55:22 PM
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abortion--before or after birth???

For our ancestors, it was after.  Is that kinder?
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Mike Cl on August 09, 2017, 06:19:21 PM
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For our ancestors, it was after.  Is that kinder?
For some parents, yeah.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Baruch on August 09, 2017, 08:31:46 PM
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abortion--before or after birth???

Both.  But I prefer to flay the offending male alive.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Blackleaf on August 10, 2017, 12:18:55 PM
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Why is this pinned?  I think it is time to let it go.

If it isn't pinned, I expect every new theist who comes here would make a new thread on the topic, claiming some gay people were "cured" by some religious bullshit. It's better to just have one thread to say, "Hey, keep your stupidity contained here please."
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Cavebear on August 12, 2017, 06:33:10 AM
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If it isn't pinned, I expect every new theist who comes here would make a new thread on the topic, claiming some gay people were "cured" by some religious bullshit. It's better to just have one thread to say, "Hey, keep your stupidity contained here please."

Well, then all subjects theists focus on should just be blocked.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Baruch on August 12, 2017, 09:03:21 AM
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Well, then all subjects theists focus on should just be blocked.

Make your own website ... bearenfuhrer.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Agro on August 21, 2017, 06:28:38 AM
Its not about choice, its about the environment, bad environments is bad,hate is also apart of that which you can go to hell too for since hate or envy is a sin in the new testament. The bible is not anti loving males, just anti being sexually immorale, aka pervert. The LGBT is very perverted sadly, and i become sad saying it because i am breaking the law of non judgemental. I get sad everytime.

Either case to prove it, here. Kiss of peace is mentioned in the bible, and here is two male apostles giving it in art illustrations of the past.

Either case it doesn't matter if this is born or not, this is used to create discord in society, just be overall friendly, good with people. Thats what i want. Sadly it can't.. people talk about sex as if its moral, not love or friendship :((((

And i tend to get mocked for that :I
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-aVXzUlI5E24/T-8Dxsk4Q6I/AAAAAAAAAQg/oiAs0ZBPLtg/s1600/Peter+and+Paul.jpg)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/58/Alonzo_Rodriguez_Commiato_dei_santi_Pietro_e_Paolo_Messina_Museo_Regionale.jpg/220px-Alonzo_Rodriguez_Commiato_dei_santi_Pietro_e_Paolo_Messina_Museo_Regionale.jpg)
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Baruch on August 21, 2017, 06:47:12 AM
Not true, and you will not meet with support if you discuss this here.  I understand the religious reasons for morality police.  As anthropology, not as personal conviction.  Choose another topic.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Unbeliever on August 21, 2017, 02:28:32 PM
I don't have time to read the whole thread, so this may already have been covered - if so, sorry.


Is heterosexuality a choice? Do people reach puberty and only then decide whether to be homo- or hetero-sexual?


I think not.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Blackleaf on August 22, 2017, 10:06:22 AM
See? It worked.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Cavebear on August 26, 2017, 06:05:23 AM
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Make your own website ... bearenfuhrer.

It was a logical conclusion based on anothers statement, not mine.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Baruch on August 26, 2017, 08:37:19 AM
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It was a logical conclusion based on anothers statement, not mine.

OK .. but you have shown previous signs of government bureaucratic authoritarianism ... did you ever work for the DMV?  You would make posters take a number and wait our turn ;-))
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Cavebear on August 26, 2017, 06:03:06 PM
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OK .. but you have shown previous signs of government bureaucratic authoritarianism ... did you ever work for the DMV?  You would make posters take a number and wait our turn ;-))

I didn't.  But had I, I would have made the process more efficient with people walking through as fast as the cameras could take their pictures.  I created a whole videoconferencing schedule system on my own one night at home and got an award for it.  But not for the months of real hard work.  Go figure...
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Baruch on August 26, 2017, 07:36:49 PM
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I didn't.  But had I, I would have made the process more efficient with people walking through as fast as the cameras could take their pictures.  I created a whole videoconferencing schedule system on my own one night at home and got an award for it.  But not for the months of real hard work.  Go figure...

Even great chefs can be a flash in the pan ;-)
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Cavebear on August 31, 2017, 03:14:33 AM
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Even great chefs can be a flash in the pan ;-)

No, great chefs are not flashes in the pan.  They always know what they are doing.  You think they just wake up one day and forget all their skills?
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Baruch on August 31, 2017, 07:18:48 AM
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No, great chefs are not flashes in the pan.  They always know what they are doing.  You think they just wake up one day and forget all their skills?

Smiley.  Making a joke.  The problem with some chefs is alcoholism.  Or if you are Julia Child ... your time in the French Resistance.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Cavebear on August 31, 2017, 08:58:08 AM
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Smiley.  Making a joke.  The problem with some chefs is alcoholism.  Or if you are Julia Child ... your time in the French Resistance.

Ah yes, The Galloping Gourmet...  Drinking wine all the show.  Joke understood.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Baruch on August 31, 2017, 01:10:30 PM
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Ah yes, The Galloping Gourmet...  Drinking wine all the show.  Joke understood.

Emril too.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Cavebear on August 31, 2017, 02:31:13 PM
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Emril too.
Is that why Emiril always had bandages on his fingers after the commercial break?
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Cavebear on March 23, 2018, 12:10:46 AM
How did THIS get dredged up? 
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Baruch on March 23, 2018, 06:43:33 AM
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How did THIS get dredged up?

You just did this ... self awareness isn't your friend ;-)
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Cavebear on March 23, 2018, 11:49:47 PM
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You just did this ... self awareness isn't your friend ;-)

No.  Notice my last post was was Aug 2017.  The Board is getting weird...  Old posts are popping (pooping?) up frequently lately.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Munch on March 24, 2018, 08:57:52 AM
The board is acting up, but you really were the last one to post anything on this since august last year.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Cavebear on March 26, 2018, 12:34:26 AM
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The board is acting up, but you really were the last one to post anything on this since august last year.

Then my fault entirely.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: trdsf on March 26, 2018, 10:42:13 AM
However, that does mean this thread is now sort of active again, by the mere act of querying why it showed up as active...
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Baruch on March 26, 2018, 01:12:45 PM
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However, that does mean this thread is now sort of active again, by the mere act of querying why it showed up as active...

Heisenberg's Internet Forum Principle.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Cavebear on March 27, 2018, 01:25:43 AM
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However, that does mean this thread is now sort of active again, by the mere act of querying why it showed up as active...

That is one of the coolest arguments I've read in years!  If you run for Congress, I'll vote for you if possible.  It does take a certain talent.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: trdsf on March 27, 2018, 11:23:27 AM
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That is one of the coolest arguments I've read in years!  If you run for Congress, I'll vote for you if possible.  It does take a certain talent.
I suspect even in liberal-leaning Columbus, while I might get a pass on being gay, they're still unlikely to forgive being an atheist, alas.  And I can't bring myself to make the mouth-noises required to be nice to religion that politicians in this country have to.

Also, in person, I have no charisma.

However, were I somehow sent to the House, lip-readers watching C-SPAN could play bingo tracking my unheard remarks, usually along the lines of "Are you fucking serious?" or "If this clown is really representative of his/her district, remind me to never go there."

*Everyone* would get to enjoy me making the parliamentary inquiry, "Mr/Mme Speaker, is it a breach of rules to ask if my colleague from (wherever) is out of his fucking mind?"

I wouldn't last long in the House, but the YouTube clips would live on forever.  :D
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Baruch on March 27, 2018, 12:50:38 PM
Parliament is a real legislature, Congress is just elected lobbyists.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Cavebear on April 07, 2018, 11:33:10 PM
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I suspect even in liberal-leaning Columbus, while I might get a pass on being gay, they're still unlikely to forgive being an atheist, alas.  And I can't bring myself to make the mouth-noises required to be nice to religion that politicians in this country have to.

Also, in person, I have no charisma.

However, were I somehow sent to the House, lip-readers watching C-SPAN could play bingo tracking my unheard remarks, usually along the lines of "Are you fucking serious?" or "If this clown is really representative of his/her district, remind me to never go there."

*Everyone* would get to enjoy me making the parliamentary inquiry, "Mr/Mme Speaker, is it a breach of rules to ask if my colleague from (wherever) is out of his fucking mind?"

I wouldn't last long in the House, but the YouTube clips would live on forever.  :D

I suspect that an elected atheist might be the last barrier to overcome among voters.  Yet, whom would be more objective and logical?
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Baruch on April 08, 2018, 08:54:27 AM
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I suspect that an elected atheist might be the last barrier to overcome among voters.  Yet, whom would be more objective and logical?

A logic professor.  QED ... don't elect lawyers.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: AllPurposeAtheist on April 08, 2018, 10:44:15 AM
People tend to forget that not long ago homosexuality was a crime and people were sent to prison for it. The film Victim dealt with the bigger crime of blackmailing homosexuals which in turn helped to get those laws overturned in Britain.
Whenever I hear someone say it's merely a choice I have to ask them why, if it was a choice would millions of people put themselves in the position of being sent to prison over love with someone of the same sex? Why would the homosexuals of the era be willing to subject themselves to viscious blackmailers and imprisonment? Doesn't sound much like a choice to me..  Here's the link to the film.. https://youtu.be/6UEFHAZX1BE
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Cavebear on April 10, 2018, 03:19:55 AM
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People tend to forget that not long ago homosexuality was a crime and people were sent to prison for it. The film Victim dealt with the bigger crime of blackmailing homosexuals which in turn helped to get those laws overturned in Britain.
Whenever I hear someone say it's merely a choice I have to ask them why, if it was a choice would millions of people put themselves in the position of being sent to prison over love with someone of the same sex? Why would the homosexuals of the era be willing to subject themselves to viscious blackmailers and imprisonment? Doesn't sound much like a choice to me..  Here's the link to the film.. https://youtu.be/6UEFHAZX1BE

Are all the guys here  other than me "gay"?
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Baruch on April 10, 2018, 06:24:59 AM
Depends on how you define gay ... popular vs technical definition.

You haven't been married, for whatever reason, as I understand it.  I have been, to a woman.  Does that make you more or less gay than I am?  Labels ...
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Munch on April 10, 2018, 06:38:32 AM
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Are all the guys here  other than me "gay"?

Dunno why the word gay was in quote marks, maybe you mean is everyone else here happy other then you, to which i'd say no, were all just miserable human beings like anyone else.
If you mean do most of us like playing the two sausage slap fight or cabbage to cabbage truffle shuffle, I dunno, maybe?
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: SoldierofFortune on April 10, 2018, 08:11:30 AM
The sense of the word gay which means homosexsual acquired its meaning in 1960s. If it wasnt so, the plane's name wasnt ''enola gay''
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Mike Cl on April 10, 2018, 10:00:39 AM
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Are all the guys here  other than me "gay"?
Nope
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: trdsf on April 10, 2018, 10:39:30 AM
I'm pretty sure not all the rest of y'all are gay, but I know I am.  :)
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Blackleaf on April 10, 2018, 11:27:38 AM
I imagine an atheist forum would attract more people who are gay, given that they are sinners and atheists are devil worshipers. People who are gay know they are accepted here.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Munch on April 10, 2018, 12:13:24 PM
I've mad friends who guys in gay communities over the years who have been religious themselves, upbringing and all, I've never really questioned them on why they believe in something that would condemn them at a moments notice, just guessed that ignore those parts of the faith and find their own interpretation of it that suits them.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: trdsf on April 10, 2018, 12:45:34 PM
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I've mad friends who guys in gay communities over the years who have been religious themselves, upbringing and all, I've never really questioned them on why they believe in something that would condemn them at a moments notice, just guessed that ignore those parts of the faith and find their own interpretation of it that suits them.
Depends on the religion, too.  Wiccans and other Neo-Pagans don't really care so much about that.

The ones I really don't understand are Log Cabin Republicans.  That takes some serious compartmentalization to be able to brush aside ongoing Republican efforts to overturn equal marriage rights and support for so-called 'conversion therapy' (both planks in the 2016 party platform), to brush aside the elevation of an anti-gay theocrat to the vice-presidency, to brush aside the hate-filled voices in the "religious" wing of their own party, and still say, "...but we agree on this other stuff, so it's okay."

I mean, sure, I disagree with several stances of the Democratic party and of individual Democratic officials—but none of those differences are on the scale of an existential threat to my actual freedom and rights as an adult American citizen.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Baruch on April 10, 2018, 01:03:53 PM
In the remake of the Stepford Wives, there is the gay couple, where the Beta male is turned into a Log Cabin Republican ... aieee!
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Cavebear on April 13, 2018, 03:10:18 AM
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I've mad friends who guys in gay communities over the years who have been religious themselves, upbringing and all, I've never really questioned them on why they believe in something that would condemn them at a moments notice, just guessed that ignore those parts of the faith and find their own interpretation of it that suits them.

When you are minority sometimes your choices are limited.  I mean, what if you were both gay AND atheist.  I bet that gets you to like less than 1% of the population.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Baruch on April 13, 2018, 07:05:00 AM
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When you are minority sometimes your choices are limited.  I mean, what if you were both gay AND atheist.  I bet that gets you to like less than 1% of the population.

We are all a minority of one.  But I have sympathy for African-Americans, because for obvious reasons they can't fly under the radar like most gays or atheists can.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: trdsf on April 13, 2018, 07:28:07 AM
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When you are minority sometimes your choices are limited.  I mean, what if you were both gay AND atheist.  I bet that gets you to like less than 1% of the population.
Hey!  I'm a one percenter!  XD
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Cavebear on April 13, 2018, 07:30:14 AM
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Hey!  I'm a one percenter!  XD

I know, and I respect that.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: trdsf on April 13, 2018, 02:47:32 PM
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I know, and I respect that.
Alas, the one percent I represent doesn't run the world... I think we could do a damn sight better job.  :)
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Cavebear on April 15, 2018, 03:36:36 AM
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Alas, the one percent I represent doesn't run the world... I think we could do a damn sight better job.  :)

Who doesn't?  Personally, I think I would be the best beneficent tyrant on Earth.  Not that I am doing anything to try to be, but I think I would. 
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Baruch on April 15, 2018, 09:56:03 AM
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Who doesn't?  Personally, I think I would be the best beneficent tyrant on Earth.  Not that I am doing anything to try to be, but I think I would.

Like Assad or like Kim? ;-(
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Cavebear on May 02, 2018, 02:57:51 AM
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Like Assad or like Kim? ;-(

Always the preference for the sadder choice for you, heh?

Think of me as Hammurabi in the modern age...

The world could do a lot worse.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Baruch on May 02, 2018, 06:59:21 AM
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Always the preference for the sadder choice for you, heh?

Think of me as Hammurabi in the modern age...

The world could do a lot worse.

Americans .. all are king in America ;-)
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Cavebear on July 02, 2018, 01:53:04 AM
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Americans .. all are king in America ;-)

Why is this pinned?  It doesn't seem to be particularly relevant.
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Munch on July 02, 2018, 06:24:58 AM
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Why is this pinned?  It doesn't seem to be particularly relevant.

Dunno, the op who made the threads not been around since sept last year
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Cavebear on July 02, 2018, 06:46:59 AM
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Dunno, the op who made the threads not been around since sept last year

Inertia?
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Munch on July 02, 2018, 07:22:59 AM
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Inertia?

Aletheia
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Cavebear on July 04, 2018, 01:37:32 AM
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Aletheia

Ok, who or what is that?
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Baruch on July 04, 2018, 07:41:24 AM
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Ok, who or what is that?

Someone too lazy to use Google ;-))
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: trdsf on July 05, 2018, 10:30:22 AM
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Ok, who or what is that?
A reasonable misspelling of my cat's name.  :)
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Blackleaf on July 05, 2018, 01:29:20 PM
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Why is this pinned?  It doesn't seem to be particularly relevant.

Haven't we already addressed this question?

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If it isn't pinned, I expect every new theist who comes here would make a new thread on the topic, claiming some gay people were "cured" by some religious bullshit. It's better to just have one thread to say, "Hey, keep your stupidity contained here please."
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Cavebear on July 09, 2018, 02:55:57 AM
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A reasonable misspelling of my cat's name.  :)

I have a niece with a name close to that...
Title: Re: "I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."
Post by: Cavebear on July 09, 2018, 02:58:20 AM
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Haven't we already addressed this question?

Not in this exact way.