Atheistforums.com

Humanities Section => Political/Government General Discussion => Topic started by: zarus tathra on August 13, 2014, 02:38:23 AM

Title: ITT We disclose our political biases
Post by: zarus tathra on August 13, 2014, 02:38:23 AM
I was thinking the other day that it's impossible for any news source to be "unbiased," that there will always be some intention that motivates the reporting of this or that fact. Because of this, I have decided (probably fallaciously) that the only news sources that I should trust are the sources that are very open about their political slants.

My political slant is amoral/technocratic. Basically, if I could press a button that magically killed a thousand people I don't give a fuck about that also magically made the space program awesome, I would press the button.

How about you guys? Who else will let fall the veneer of "reason" and "universal love" and expose to the critical eyes of the Internet their true motives?
Title: Re: ITT We disclose our political biases
Post by: Moralnihilist on August 13, 2014, 07:22:57 AM
Depends on the issue.
Title: Re: ITT We disclose our political biases
Post by: SGOS on August 13, 2014, 07:28:09 AM
No, I don't like politically biased TV news.  Left wing or right wing, I consider it all rubbish.  It's a form of entertainment that plays to some kind of cathartic needs.  Yes, there is probably always a degree of bias in any reporting, but good journalism strives to put it aside.  Yellow journalism glorifies it and is not in any way helpful.  I do not rationalize the use of biased journalism.  It's as bad as religious propaganda, although it has the same foundation:  Some people just don't like the truth.  They need to have their personal beliefs verified, or they get pissed off.  I hate people who try to manipulate me.  I think they are assholes, and I don't want them interpreting reality for me.  It's one thing I don't  miss about getting rid of TV.  I'm not going to pay for a service that manipulates me, be it toothpaste ads or political propaganda.
Title: Re: ITT We disclose our political biases
Post by: josephpalazzo on August 13, 2014, 07:53:27 AM
I don't know about the media, but responding to the title of this thread as far as I'm concerned, I don't have one particular label for my positions. For instance, on domestic policies, I tend to agree with Obama and the Democratic party, but on foreign policies, I tend to agree with the Republicans. On financial matters, I'm a conservative, but on social issues, I'm a liberal. In economics, I believe that capitalism is the best instrument to create wealth, but I don't believe in unfettered capitalism, that is, I believe that the government has an important role to play on oversight, that is as a referee, but in times of economic crisis, it must take an important role as a player. So, I'm basically a mixed bag.  :biggrin:
Title: Re: ITT We disclose our political biases
Post by: GSOgymrat on August 13, 2014, 08:24:53 AM
There is no such thing as unbiased news. A news agency can make the articles as neutral as possible but just deciding which stories to report creates a bias. I don't think bias is always bad as long as it is acknowledged. One problem I have with Fox News is their "fair and balanced" tagline, because any reasonable person knows that Fox News is conservative, just like saying Huffington Post is "fair and balanced" would be wrong.
Title: Re: ITT We disclose our political biases
Post by: Hijiri Byakuren on August 13, 2014, 09:37:29 AM
Depends on the issue, but I tend to err on the liberal side of libertarian.
Title: Re: ITT We disclose our political biases
Post by: stromboli on August 13, 2014, 09:56:56 AM
Mixed bag, probably cloes to what JP said. The news:

http://www.businessinsider.com/these-6-corporations-control-90-of-the-media-in-america-2012-6

Read for yourself. 6 companies own 90% of the news media. There is no way you can call that unbiased. I doubt that News Corp or Time Warner are ever going to publish anything critical about themselves, so there you go.
Title: Re: ITT We disclose our political biases
Post by: josephpalazzo on August 13, 2014, 11:22:37 AM
Thanks for the link. It real drives the point.
Title: Re: ITT We disclose our political biases
Post by: zarus tathra on August 13, 2014, 12:50:48 PM
I was looking for something more... fundamental? than this. What is your final goal? Your ur-symbol? A family man might have the nuclear family, for example.
Title: Re: ITT We disclose our political biases
Post by: Jason Harvestdancer on August 13, 2014, 06:23:26 PM
My ur-symbol?

Individual liberty.  It is my starting premise and all my ideas derive from that.

Some people have "fairness" or "morality" or "security".  I don't agree with those.
Title: Re: ITT We disclose our political biases
Post by: zarus tathra on August 13, 2014, 06:35:23 PM
When people say "fairness" or "morality" what they really mean is that the strong should serve the weak, however these last two ideas are defined.

I think I've just hit upon the ur-symbol of left-wing politics in all its forms.
Title: Re: ITT We disclose our political biases
Post by: Shiranu on August 13, 2014, 07:12:41 PM
Quote
When people say "fairness" or "morality" what they really mean is that the strong should serve the weak, however these last two ideas are defined.

Or the "strong", who became so on the back of the "weak", on the revenue brought to them by the "weak", using services provided to them by "the weak" to establish and protect their business have a social obligation to not abuse their power and to contribute something back to the kettle that made them "strong" in the first place.

And that the services provided by "the weak" should go to providing for everyone and not just helping "the strong" as is unfortunately what too much of the kettle goes towards.

But nah, I'm sure you're right... "weaks" hate "strongs" and want freebies.

And the reason you aren't getting the answers you are looking for is normal people aren't locked into a rigid ideology.
Title: Re: ITT We disclose our political biases
Post by: aitm on August 13, 2014, 08:26:48 PM
meh...
Title: Re: ITT We disclose our political biases
Post by: stromboli on August 13, 2014, 08:36:33 PM
meh...

Non committal and yet definitive at the same time. I like that.
Title: Re: ITT We disclose our political biases
Post by: Mermaid on August 13, 2014, 08:37:39 PM
meh...
I like the cut of your jib.
Title: Re: ITT We disclose our political biases
Post by: zarus tathra on August 13, 2014, 09:27:06 PM
Or the "strong", who became so on the back of the "weak", on the revenue brought to them by the "weak", using services provided to them by "the weak" to establish and protect their business have a social obligation to not abuse their power and to contribute something back to the kettle that made them "strong" in the first place.

That's only true of a shrinking, though not insubstantial subset of the "weak." And I would say that capitalism is a system in which the ignorant rule over those who are for the most part stronger and more knowledgeable than them, which allowed them to create that wealth to begin with. It's not hard to see the connection between the infinite moral obligation implied by the doctrine of "original sin" and infinitely expandable property rights.

Quote
And the reason you aren't getting the answers you are looking for is normal people aren't locked into a rigid ideology.

That's debatable. They may not state their ideologies, and generally they don't, but the "unstated assumptions" that they refuse to question are an ideology in and of themselves. You are no different.

As for you in particular, anyone going over your posting history can see a very clear trend of "sticking up for the poor" and believing in a strong government to rule over them consisting of people who are for the most part anything but poor. The fact that you refuse to identify this pattern that should be obvious even to you is... suspicious.
Title: Re: ITT We disclose our political biases
Post by: Berati on August 13, 2014, 10:42:24 PM
I don't know about the media, but responding to the title of this thread as far as I'm concerned, I don't have one particular label for my positions. For instance, on domestic policies, I tend to agree with Obama and the Democratic party, but on foreign policies, I tend to agree with the Republicans. On financial matters, I'm a conservative, but on social issues, I'm a liberal. In economics, I believe that capitalism is the best instrument to create wealth, but I don't believe in unfettered capitalism, that is, I believe that the government has an important role to play on oversight, that is as a referee, but in times of economic crisis, it must take an important role as a player. So, I'm basically a mixed bag.  :biggrin:
Pretty much bang on other than the foreign policy. I just try to be pragmatic.
Title: Re: ITT We disclose our political biases
Post by: Shiranu on August 13, 2014, 10:48:34 PM
Quote
As for you in particular, anyone going over your posting history can see a very clear trend of "sticking up for the poor" and believing in a strong government to rule over them consisting of people who are for the most part anything but poor. The fact that you refuse to identify this pattern that should be obvious even to you is... suspicious.

Yes, but I wouldn't say that defines my political views. There are plenty of ways I don't think the rich should be penalized so it would be inaccurate to say that is what I believe in it.

Title: Re: ITT We disclose our political biases
Post by: Hijiri Byakuren on August 13, 2014, 11:10:50 PM
That's only true of a shrinking, though not insubstantial subset of the "weak." And I would say that capitalism is a system in which the ignorant rule over those who are for the most part stronger and more knowledgeable than them, which allowed them to create that wealth to begin with. It's not hard to see the connection between the infinite moral obligation implied by the doctrine of "original sin" and infinitely expandable property rights.
 
That's debatable. They may not state their ideologies, and generally they don't, but the "unstated assumptions" that they refuse to question are an ideology in and of themselves. You are no different.

As for you in particular, anyone going over your posting history can see a very clear trend of "sticking up for the poor" and believing in a strong government to rule over them consisting of people who are for the most part anything but poor. The fact that you refuse to identify this pattern that should be obvious even to you is... suspicious.
You don't have people figured out quite as well as you think you do.
Title: Re: ITT We disclose our political biases
Post by: zarus tathra on August 13, 2014, 11:26:42 PM
I don't really care.
Title: Re: ITT We disclose our political biases
Post by: Shiranu on August 13, 2014, 11:31:26 PM
I don't really care.

Your loss.
Title: Re: ITT We disclose our political biases
Post by: zarus tathra on August 13, 2014, 11:34:24 PM
And what do I lose, wise guru?
Title: Re: ITT We disclose our political biases
Post by: Hijiri Byakuren on August 14, 2014, 12:02:53 AM
I don't really care.
You should, it's pretty relevant to the responses you're getting.
Title: Re: ITT We disclose our political biases
Post by: zarus tathra on August 14, 2014, 12:08:52 AM
I would say that most of the unwillingness to answer is nothing more than self-deception/obfuscation, but of course, that's an interpretation that isn't favorable enough for your tastes.
Title: Re: ITT We disclose our political biases
Post by: Hijiri Byakuren on August 14, 2014, 12:21:45 AM
I would say that most of the unwillingness to answer is nothing more than self-deception/obfuscation, but of course, that's an interpretation that isn't favorable enough for your tastes.
That is a massively over-simplified take on the sociology and psychology involved in biases.
Title: Re: ITT We disclose our political biases
Post by: zarus tathra on August 14, 2014, 12:43:01 AM
I'm not talking about the "psychology and sociology of biases," I'm talking about your own unwillingness to reveal your own biases.
Title: Re: ITT We disclose our political biases
Post by: doorknob on August 14, 2014, 08:25:58 AM
Or the "strong", who became so on the back of the "weak", on the revenue brought to them by the "weak", using services provided to them by "the weak" to establish and protect their business have a social obligation to not abuse their power and to contribute something back to the kettle that made them "strong" in the first place.

And that the services provided by "the weak" should go to providing for everyone and not just helping "the strong" as is unfortunately what too much of the kettle goes towards.

But nah, I'm sure you're right... "weaks" hate "strongs" and want freebies.

And the reason you aren't getting the answers you are looking for is normal people aren't locked into a rigid ideology.

I agree with most of this. I don't know that normal people aren't locked into rigid ideology though.

I'm tired of the rich complaining that, they worked hard to earn their money and blame the poor for being poor. It IS in fact the backs of the poor for which they got rich. And employers are greedier still. My poor sister is sick from all the stress she incurred from entry level jobs she's worked. If you won't pay a livable wage at the very least treat your employees well and not like total shit the way they do. And I'm tired of the corporate world looking down on the commoners that are the working class. they are so far out of touch with the commoners(for lack of better word) that it's sickens me.


Title: Re: ITT We disclose our political biases
Post by: Hijiri Byakuren on August 14, 2014, 10:03:22 AM
I'm not talking about the "psychology and sociology of biases," I'm talking about your own unwillingness to reveal your own biases.
You apparently missed my very first post in this thread. So not only do you not have a firm grasp over the subject you're tackling, you're not even bothering to look at the answers you're given. And you wonder why you're not being taken seriously.
Title: Re: ITT We disclose our political biases
Post by: josephpalazzo on August 14, 2014, 10:05:07 AM
Pretty much bang on other than the foreign policy. I just try to be pragmatic.

On the international arena, left-wing ideology doesn't work. It's fine to root for those who are the underdogs, wanting to raise the standard of living of everyone, especially those who come from disadvantaged socio-economic background, etc. That enterprise is noble, but it only works under certain conditions, a framework that espouses Western values: democracy, rule of law, individual rights, safeguard for minority groups. In the international arena, we have to deal with thugs who won't hesitate to put a bullet through your head, and not only once we have remove the thugs do we have guarantees that the people will espouse Western values. Look at Egypt, given the chance of electing their government, the Egyptians voted for the Muslim Brothers, a party dedicated to eradicate secularism, freedom of expression, equal rights between man and woman. A similar thing happened with the Palestinians when they voted for Hamas, a terrorist organisation dedicated to the destruction of Israel by any means including using their population to shield their so-called "freedom fighters".
Title: Re: ITT We disclose our political biases
Post by: Jason Harvestdancer on August 14, 2014, 10:33:15 AM
When people say "fairness" or "morality" what they really mean is that the strong should serve the weak, however these last two ideas are defined.

I think I've just hit upon the ur-symbol of left-wing politics in all its forms.

Actually, I think "morality" would be conservative, while "fairness" would be liberal.  And "security" would be the worst aspects of both rolled into one.
Title: Re: ITT We disclose our political biases
Post by: stromboli on August 14, 2014, 10:33:40 AM
Or we don't give a shit whether you know our political biases or not. This whole thread is about you projecting your values on us, and assuming that should be adhered to.

You said "apparent unwillingness" Wtf? You don 't have any more right to that information than an unknown stranger stopping me on the street. As to "I think its time to disclose our political biases" Are you going to rubber hose my ass like a cop?
Title: Re: ITT We disclose our political biases
Post by: Berati on August 14, 2014, 12:46:26 PM
My political slant is amoral/technocratic.

That is not a political slant. I believe it's a type of character alignment in Advanced Dungeons and Dragons.
Title: Re: ITT We disclose our political biases
Post by: Berati on August 14, 2014, 01:09:42 PM
On the international arena, left-wing ideology doesn't work. It's fine to root for those who are the underdogs, wanting to raise the standard of living of everyone, especially those who come from disadvantaged socio-economic background, etc. That enterprise is noble, but it only works under certain conditions, a framework that espouses Western values: democracy, rule of law, individual rights, safeguard for minority groups. In the international arena, we have to deal with thugs who won't hesitate to put a bullet through your head, and not only once we have remove the thugs do we have guarantees that the people will espouse Western values. Look at Egypt, given the chance of electing their government, the Egyptians voted for the Muslim Brothers, a party dedicated to eradicate secularism, freedom of expression, equal rights between man and woman. A similar thing happened with the Palestinians when they voted for Hamas, a terrorist organisation dedicated to the destruction of Israel by any means including using their population to shield their so-called "freedom fighters".

Not sure what you mean by left wing ideology in the context of foreign policy? Can you clarify?
I agree with you that we can't impose Western values overseas and I agree even more with the idea that given the chance, other cultures reject open, democratic and pluralistic societies. It seems crazy to me but that's what appears to be happening. Islamic nations rejected the univeral charter of human rights and instead put out the "Cairo Declaration on Human Rights in Islam" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cairo_Declaration_on_Human_Rights_in_Islam I guess "oxymoron" doesn't translate.

That's why I feel the conservative view of foreign policy is a failure. It assumes others want what we want and tries to accomplish that goal through crazy expensive military operations. It was Dick Cheney who thought the US would be greeted as liberators.
I'm not opposed to any use of the military, but it has certainly been overused because of conservative ideology and not left wing ideology IMO.

Title: Re: ITT We disclose our political biases
Post by: Hakurei Reimu on August 14, 2014, 01:57:31 PM
Why the fuck do you even care? When you boil it down to the essence, we're just a bunch of people bitching on the internet. Our political slants would be troublesome if we were presenting news or running for office, but we aren't. So who gives a shit?
Title: Re: ITT We disclose our political biases
Post by: zarus tathra on August 14, 2014, 03:24:16 PM
Or we don't give a shit whether you know our political biases or not. This whole thread is about you projecting your values on us, and assuming that should be adhered to.

You said "apparent unwillingness" Wtf? You don 't have any more right to that information than an unknown stranger stopping me on the street. As to "I think its time to disclose our political biases" Are you going to rubber hose my ass like a cop?

 You people have so much sublimated fear it's hilarious. Go out and kill something furry, it'll do you a lot of good.

Why the fuck do you even care? When you boil it down to the essence, we're just a bunch of people bitching on the internet. Our political slants would be troublesome if we were presenting news or running for office, but we aren't. So who gives a shit?

Good point. We should talk about the ideology of the power elite, too. This ideology being the desire to own everything, as far as I can tell.
Title: Re: ITT We disclose our political biases
Post by: josephpalazzo on August 14, 2014, 03:32:52 PM
Not sure what you mean by left wing ideology in the context of foreign policy? Can you clarify?

A good number of the people on the Left are easily suaded by the pictures being played out on TV about the Palestinians getting pummelled by Israeli forces. Their natural inclination to abhor such tragedy leads them to condemn Israel for such devastation.  The problem with that is that Hamas deliberately places its fighters among the population to insure maximum casualties, and then uses that to get an outpouring of international outcry. Little consideration is given from the Left to the fact that the Palestinians have been at war with Israel since 1948, and during those intervening years, they have never signed a peace treaty, and have always chosen their leaders that publicly shouted the destruction of the state of Israel. What is loss in that cacophony is Israel's right to defend. The road blocks, the wall, the blockades, the bombings, the incursion into the Palestinians, and even the occupation of certain parts are all measures taken as a response to this seemingly unending war. Yet, you don't see equal coverage of those facts. And when certain people do defend Israel, they are quickly dismissed because, because, well you know, the Jews control the media, the Jews control the US government, the Jewish lobby is all powerful, blah, blah, blah... And that kind of vitriol comes mainly from the Left. When dealing with thugs, pleading for the poor is not the appropriate response. The thugs need to be ridden of. The Left wants strong government as that is the best way to fight inequality, have programs to help those in need. Strong government under democracy is fine. It isn't when a country has no inclination to go the democratic path and are run by thugs.   


Title: Re: ITT We disclose our political biases
Post by: DunkleSeele on August 14, 2014, 03:36:52 PM
                                               
 
Moderator Message:
 
 
Zarus tathra, your elitist and condescending attitude is getting tiring. Each and every post of yours is designed with the only goal of massaging your own ego and sneer at the other members of this forum. Your behaviour is just another form of trolling.
This is an official warning: change your attitude. Now.
 
Title: Re: ITT We disclose our political biases
Post by: zarus tathra on August 14, 2014, 05:11:53 PM
What do you mean by "change my attitude?" If you wanted me to stop insulting people or something I'd understand, but that's too nebulous for me.
Title: Re: ITT We disclose our political biases
Post by: DunkleSeele on August 14, 2014, 05:30:34 PM
You want a clarification? Here it is: drop your condescending, arrogant attitude towards the other members or you will enjoy a long vacation from the forum, period.
Title: Re: ITT We disclose our political biases
Post by: aitm on August 14, 2014, 06:12:09 PM
I like the cut of your jib.

as I wrote that while sitting nekkin on the sofa, I am oddly tittilated that you would like the "cut of my jib"......so....wanna date me?
Title: Re: ITT We disclose our political biases
Post by: zarus tathra on August 14, 2014, 07:20:44 PM
Is it just this thread that's arrogant? Or is it this and many others? Or is it all of them?

                                               
 
Moderator Message:
 
 
OK smart ass, two days holiday. Come back with a different attitude or next time your holiday will be much longer.
 
Title: Re: ITT We disclose our political biases
Post by: Mermaid on August 14, 2014, 07:27:19 PM
as I wrote that while sitting nekkin on the sofa, I am oddly tittilated that you would like the "cut of my jib"......so....wanna date me?
Get in line.
Title: Re: ITT We disclose our political biases
Post by: aitm on August 14, 2014, 09:48:01 PM
I am..and I see no one in front of me....so....Lobster bisque and a small filet?
Title: Re: ITT We disclose our political biases
Post by: stromboli on August 15, 2014, 12:16:23 AM
Whatever. The arrogant shit gets no more attention from me.
Title: Re: ITT We disclose our political biases
Post by: DunkleSeele on August 15, 2014, 02:44:55 AM
Whatever. The arrogant shit gets no more attention from me.
He's got his vacation now. Let's see what happens when he comes back, if he does.
Title: Re: ITT We disclose our political biases
Post by: zarus tathra on August 21, 2014, 05:11:51 PM
I'm reading a book "The Menace of the Herd: Procrustes at Large" written by Erik Ritter von-Kuehnelt Leddihn, a former Austrian nobleman who became an American professor. He spent his career criticizing democracy (but not the republic) and the egalitarian strain in political thought. His criticism boils down to this: democracy is a political economy that can easily turn into an illiberal campaign against individuality, and that the desire for equality will in almost all instances degenerate into a bureaucratic desire for conformity.

When looking at bourgeois democracy and Marxism in particular, he believed that the former was a regime in which the ruling classes sought to engender a general sense of mediocrity by integrating all other classes into the bourgeois/bureaucratic classes, while the latter sought to engender a general sense of inferiority by tearing down everything that made humans better than mere animals.

To be perfectly blunt, much of my motivation for creating this thread was a vague but unmistakable sense that most of the people on this forum (and this subforum in particular) were either at one of the poles of democracy/communism in terms of aesthetic and cultural tastes, or somewhere between them. The reluctance with which you divulge your cultural biases implies a sense of embarrassment over them and really only confirms my opinion.

With that said, I'm done with this thread.
Title: Re: ITT We disclose our political biases
Post by: DunkleSeele on August 21, 2014, 05:28:12 PM
The reluctance with which you divulge your cultural biases implies a sense of embarrassment over them and really only confirms my opinion.

With that said, I'm done with this thread.
Or maybe the reluctance is due to the fact that we don't care to divulge our position to someone who, from day one, has always displayed an elitist attitude and a sense of self-proclaimed superiority. You never come here to discuss, you only want to massage your huge ego and take cheap shots at other members to make yourself feel better than your fellow members. Why would we want to feed your misplaced sense of superiority?

(Note: I'm not talking as a mod, but as a member of this community)
Title: Re: ITT We disclose our political biases
Post by: Hakurei Reimu on August 21, 2014, 05:42:48 PM
ZT, I think you've been on this forum long enough to know that I value what works (pragmatism) and as much as possible society should be based on fairness, because we all know the universe isn't. If you're not clever enough to pick up on that, then you have no business asking about anyone's cultural/political biases.
Title: Re: ITT We disclose our political biases
Post by: Jason Harvestdancer on August 22, 2014, 11:51:52 AM
I think claiming "pragmatism" is a cop-out.  Pragmatism is merely the path to a goal, the goal is dictated by ideology.

If you want higher unemployment, there is a pragmatic way to achieve it.
If you want lower unemployment, there is a pragmatic way to achieve it.
If you want racial integration, there is a pragmatic way to achieve it.
If you want racial segregation, there is a pragmatic way to achieve it.
If you want (insert anything here), there is a pragmatic way to achieve it.
Title: Re: ITT We disclose our political biases
Post by: Hakurei Reimu on August 22, 2014, 05:37:49 PM
You'd be surprised how many people think their unachievable ideologies are of higher value than workable policy.
Title: Re: ITT We disclose our political biases
Post by: zarus tathra on August 24, 2014, 04:19:19 PM
So you're a conservative in the general, academic sense?
Title: Re: ITT We disclose our political biases
Post by: the_antithesis on August 24, 2014, 08:50:39 PM
You'd be surprised how many people think their unachievable ideologies are of higher value than workable policy.

Yeah. It's kind of like believing in god.
Title: Re: ITT We disclose our political biases
Post by: SGOS on August 25, 2014, 06:02:17 AM
Yeah. It's kind of like believing in god.
Ideological thinking does seem very much like religion.  It offers an eventual utopia by following strict rules to get there, but the half baked theories of preference have never been tested, and just like the religious zealot, the ideologue can claim the goal has not been reached because the implementation is always corrupted by the outside forces of non-believers.
Title: Re: ITT We disclose our political biases
Post by: zarus tathra on August 25, 2014, 05:55:12 PM
That's why you need small-scale implementations or reforms of existing systems before you can get anywhere. Even in engineering the best methodology is to start by implementing a vital subset of a whole feature set before you try to build EVERYTHING

It's one thing to say that changing this or that institution will improve things. It's another thing to go full Marx and say that you have a theory of how EVERYTHING works.

And this is actually part of what inspired me to say that terms should always be given hardened definitions before they're given any weight at all. It is absolutely vital to quantify desired performance when you're building software or machinery. It should be doubly so when you're talking about the goals and methodology of a political movement, not only to give a standard by which critics can judge a movement, but also to allow it to succeed and gauge its own success (or more often lack of it).

This will sound a bit mba-ish, but according to a book I have called "Superconnect," it's important to have a wide array of weak connections. If all you have are strong connections to other people, even if you have a LOT of them, that will probably end up stunting the growth and development both of you and the people you work with. And it seems like all the utopian philosophies have in mind a society in which every interpersonal connection, whether of master/slave or worker/comrade to worker/comrade, is "strong." And if you look at history, this is born out. Greece was built on strong relationships and well-defined roles, and it failed to grow. Rome, on the other hand, had very loose coupling between the different classes and it grew very stably until the Imperial era, when all power was consolidated in the hands of the army and later the Emperor and any separation of concerns was destroyed.

You also see this in poor communities in the US of all races. Whenever their community is too tightly coupled and lacking in loose connections to the outside world, there is great poverty and lack of education. Everybody needs a buffer of people they kind of care about and kind of don't. It's maddening if everybody has to live like Communists, perfectly in touch with all those who they come into contact with.