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News & General Discussion => News Stories and Current Events => Topic started by: gussy on February 14, 2013, 09:44:27 PM

Title: A justifiable murder?
Post by: gussy on February 14, 2013, 09:44:27 PM
QuoteDavid Barajas, Texas man, charged in fatal shooting of suspected drunk driver who killed his sons, authorities say

(CBS/AP) HOUSTON - Authorities said Monday that a Texas father was charged with murder in the fatal revenge shooting of a suspected drunk driver who killed two of his children in a car crash, CBS Houston reports.

David Barajas, 31, and his sons, 12-year-old David Jr. and 11-year-old Caleb, were about 50 yards away from their Houston-area home on Dec. 7, 2012 when a car crashed into them. David Jr. died at the scene, while Caleb died later at a hospital.

Barajas suffered non-life-threatening injuries, according to CBS Houston. His wife, Cindy, was in the truck when it was hit, along with the couple's 8-year-old daughter and 3-month-old son.

Barajas was driving with his family when their truck broke down near Alvin, about 30 miles southeast of Houston. He and his two sons attempted to push the truck when 20-year-old Jose Banda rear-ended their vehicle, CBS Houston reports.

The Brazoria County Sheriff's Department said Banda was intoxicated at the time of the crash. His blood alcohol concentration was reportedly at 0.175, above the legal limit, according to the station.

Neighbors said they heard gunshots minutes after the crash and Banda was later found shot in the head. He was flown to a medical center where he died of his injuries, CBS Houston reports. His death was ruled a homicide.

Brazoria County sheriff's investigator Dominick Sanders said Monday that witnesses told authorities they saw Barajas walk to his home right after the crash and then return a few minutes later and approach Banda's vehicle. Evidence showed one shot was fired, Sanders said.

"Every time we would pursue a lead, it always came back to Mr. Barajas," Sanders said. "We have numerous statements placing him there at the car in close proximity to the victim at the time the gunshot was fired."

Barajas was indicted for murder Friday and turned himself in Sunday. He was held Monday in the Brazoria County Jail on a $450,000 bond.

A search of Barajas' home found ammunition that is consistent with the bullet that killed Banda, but authorities have not located the weapon used in the shooting, Sanders said. He added that the case is "going to be much more difficult if we don't have a weapon."

Gunshot residue tests were done on both Barajas and Banda, and authorities are still waiting for those results, Sanders said.

Investigators also are awaiting DNA test results of some "biological material" that was found at the scene. Sanders declined to elaborate on the material that is being tested.


//http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57568871-504083/david-barajas-texas-man-charged-in-fatal-shooting-of-suspected-drunk-driver-who-killed-his-sons-authorities-say/

If I were on the jury, I don't think I could convict the guy.  If anything, he was humane about it by giving him two head shots.
Title: Re: A justifiable murder?
Post by: The Dude on February 14, 2013, 09:48:20 PM
I think life in prison is worse than death. That's why I'm anti-capital punishment. It's not bad enough.
Title: Re: A justifiable murder?
Post by: buttfinger on February 14, 2013, 09:54:06 PM
Justifiable?  Yes.  Would i nullify the jury if I were on it?  Yes.  Was it illegal and not LEGALLY justifiable?  Yes.  Would the jury be right to convict him based on the law alone?  Yes.
Title: Re: A justifiable murder?
Post by: _Xenu_ on February 14, 2013, 09:56:34 PM
I cant say this makes me sad. Vigilantism serves the greater good sometimes, especially when it comes to child molesters.
Title: Re: A justifiable murder?
Post by: buttfinger on February 14, 2013, 09:57:08 PM
That guy will certainly never drive drunk again.
Title: Re: A justifiable murder?
Post by: PapaSmurf34 on February 14, 2013, 10:40:43 PM
Not justifiable at all. Obviously the father could not have known what the BAC of the driver was when he shot him. For all the father knew the man could have been a diabetic and had a low blood sugar which can imitate the effects of being drunk. The father was in a fit of rage and although I sympathize with him and can see why he would have done it he was not justified, at least in any legal sense, in shooting the driver.
Title: Re: A justifiable murder?
Post by: _Xenu_ on February 14, 2013, 10:47:44 PM
To expect some other reaction is inhuman. This father watched two of his children die  and the guy who did it was trapped right in front of him. What other reaction could be expected? I have to admit, I don't think I could have shown much more restraint in a similar situation.
Title: Re: A justifiable murder?
Post by: Poison Tree on February 14, 2013, 11:40:04 PM
If the guy had just whipped out a gun and shot, then I could see temporary insanity. But walking home, arming yourself, going back, then shooting a guy? That's starting to sound long enough to be per-meditated. I can't say what I would have done in his place (It is not a situation I can honestly place myself in), but as a nation of law and order he needs to be tried and "I would have wanted revenge, too" cannot be a sufficient defense.
Title: Re: A justifiable murder?
Post by: Thumpalumpacus on February 15, 2013, 12:32:42 AM
Understandable, but not justifiable.
Title: Re: A justifiable murder?
Post by: Bobby_Ouroborus on February 15, 2013, 12:42:57 AM
Quote from: "_Xenu_"I cant say this makes me sad. Vigilantism serves the greater good sometimes, especially when it comes to child molesters.

Vigilantism is a breakdown of the social order...no good can come of it.
Title: Re: A justifiable murder?
Post by: Plu on February 15, 2013, 03:28:10 AM
Drunk drivers who cause this kind of situation deserve to be shot. Hell, all drunk drivers should be shot. Not like this, but unfortunately it's probably not going to happen otherwise.

I really can't blame the guy, even though he should be legally charged, because (as stated above) just because it was justified in hindsight doesn't mean it was justified up front.
Title: Re: A justifiable murder?
Post by: buttfinger on February 15, 2013, 03:38:38 AM
Quote from: "Bobby_Ouroborus"Vigilantism is a breakdown of the social order...no good can come of it.
Social order is the cradle of tyranny and unilateral injustice.
Title: Re: A justifiable murder?
Post by: Mathias on February 15, 2013, 05:57:55 AM
It may seem a cliche, but I think there is no feeling worse than losing a child, two is unthinkable!!!
Because this was a premeditated crime, he should be condemned, but the punishment of losing two children at once, should be taken into consideration as extenuatory.
Title: Re: A justifiable murder?
Post by: Horsefly on February 15, 2013, 06:21:36 AM
It's justifiable from the father's point of view. This guy killed 2 of his sons through making a stupid and selfish mistake.

It's not justifiable from our point of view. It's part of a civilized society's job to mediate serious crimes and disputes. This guy needs to be punished, otherwise vigilantism will be seen as ok and more of these scenarios will start popping up.
Title: Re: A justifiable murder?
Post by: SilentFutility on February 15, 2013, 06:54:07 AM
Quote from: "PapaSmurf34"Not justifiable at all. Obviously the father could not have known what the BAC of the driver was when he shot him. For all the father knew the man could have been a diabetic and had a low blood sugar which can imitate the effects of being drunk. The father was in a fit of rage and although I sympathize with him and can see why he would have done it he was not justified, at least in any legal sense, in shooting the driver.
In which case you should absolutely not drive. If you are diabetic and are halfway towards a diabetic coma your ability to drive is definitely impaired. If you have any medical condition which has the same symptoms of drunkenness you are not fit to drive and by doing so you are being irresponsible and risking not only your own life, but the lives of others around you.

Quote from: "Horsefly"It's justifiable from the father's point of view. This guy killed 2 of his sons through making a stupid and selfish mistake.
The thing is though, driving drunk isn't a mistake. It is a decision that your convienience of getting where you want to go easily without having to walk, take a taxi or take public transport is more important than the lives of everybody you're endangering by driving drunk/high. It is an abhorrent thing to do and it isn't an accident, it is simply just not caring that you're risking killing someone's wife/brother/son/girlfriend/daughter so that you can get home more quickly.
Title: Re: A justifiable murder?
Post by: Plu on February 15, 2013, 07:23:10 AM
QuoteThe thing is though, driving drunk isn't a mistake. It is a decision that your convienience of getting where you want to go easily without having to walk, take a taxi or take public transport is more important than the lives of everybody you're endangering by driving drunk/high. It is an abhorrent thing to do and it isn't an accident, it is simply just not caring that you're risking killing someone's wife/brother/son/girlfriend/daughter so that you can get home more quickly.

This. So much.
Title: Re: A justifiable murder?
Post by: StupidWiz on February 15, 2013, 08:27:47 AM
I don't know, I think... the drunk driver deserved it, but there's still law to uphold, right?

Like one of the replies, it's understandable but unjustifiable. I really feel sorry for the father who lost his 2 sons, I can never imagine how it feels, but... even the drunk driver still had right to be tried and punished according to law.  :|
Title: Re: A justifiable murder?
Post by: surly74 on February 15, 2013, 08:52:36 AM
Quote from: "_Xenu_"I cant say this makes me sad. Vigilantism serves the greater good sometimes, especially when it comes to child molesters.

no it doesn't.

I feel for the father losing his two children and drunk driving is a terrible thing but citizens taking reveng on other citizens is not the sign of a stable society no matter the intentions of the vigilante.

there is a reason drunk drivers aren't shot and killed by police now as penalty for their crimes. because two children died people think this is justification? what if no one died and the DD'er was shot and killed? still justified? what about going and shooting the bartender or whoever served them? didn't they have a responsibility to prevent this if he got drunk at a bar? or is that overreaching?

where does it end?

People may use this as a perpetrator having more rights than victims and sometimes it certainly seems that way but there is a reason for it.
Title: Re: A justifiable murder?
Post by: Jason78 on February 15, 2013, 10:29:21 AM
Quote from: "gussy"If I were on the jury, I don't think I could convict the guy.  If anything, he was humane about it by giving him two head shots.

Does losing your kids to a drunk driver automatically give you the right to act as judge, jury and executioner?
Title: Re: A justifiable murder?
Post by: surly74 on February 15, 2013, 10:53:03 AM
Quote from: "buttfinger"
Quote from: "Bobby_Ouroborus"Vigilantism is a breakdown of the social order...no good can come of it.
Social order is the cradle of tyranny and unilateral injustice.


grow up.
Title: Re: A justifiable murder?
Post by: surly74 on February 15, 2013, 11:10:19 AM
Quote from: "Plu"Drunk drivers who cause this kind of situation deserve to be shot. Hell, all drunk drivers should be shot. Not like this, but unfortunately it's probably not going to happen otherwise.

I really can't blame the guy, even though he should be legally charged, because (as stated above) just because it was justified in hindsight doesn't mean it was justified up front.

I can, listen i feel for him, i have young kids and i this is unimaginable to me but citizens can't be vigilantes for the simple reason is they don't know what they are doing.

it didn't happen in this case but suppose someone feels justified in shooting someone who they mistakenly thought did something wrong? It's a horrible slippery slope.

why stop at shooting drunk drivers? why not everyone that committs a crime? there is a reason there are varying punishments because punishments need to fit the crime.
Title: Re: A justifiable murder?
Post by: Jmpty on February 15, 2013, 11:24:55 AM
Quote from: "SilentFutility"
Quote from: "PapaSmurf34"Not justifiable at all. Obviously the father could not have known what the BAC of the driver was when he shot him. For all the father knew the man could have been a diabetic and had a low blood sugar which can imitate the effects of being drunk. The father was in a fit of rage and although I sympathize with him and can see why he would have done it he was not justified, at least in any legal sense, in shooting the driver.
In which case you should absolutely not drive. If you are diabetic and are halfway towards a diabetic coma your ability to drive is definitely impaired. If you have any medical condition which has the same symptoms of drunkenness you are not fit to drive and by doing so you are being irresponsible and risking not only your own life, but the lives of others around you.

Quote from: "Horsefly"It's justifiable from the father's point of view. This guy killed 2 of his sons through making a stupid and selfish mistake.
The thing is though, driving drunk isn't a mistake. It is a decision that your convienience of getting where you want to go easily without having to walk, take a taxi or take public transport is more important than the lives of everybody you're endangering by driving drunk/high. It is an abhorrent thing to do and it isn't an accident, it is simply just not caring that you're risking killing someone's wife/brother/son/girlfriend/daughter so that you can get home more quickly.

Bullshit. That only applies to social drinkers. If this guy was an untreated alcoholic, he lost the choice of making reasonable decisions when he developed alcoholism. There is NO excuse to justify shooting an unarmed person in the head.
Title: Re: A justifiable murder?
Post by: buttfinger on February 15, 2013, 11:29:04 AM
Quote from: "surly74"
Quote from: "buttfinger"
Quote from: "Bobby_Ouroborus"Vigilantism is a breakdown of the social order...no good can come of it.
Social order is the cradle of tyranny and unilateral injustice.


grow up.
What a well-reasoned response.  And insightful too.

Quit with the character assassination and make a real response.
Title: Re: A justifiable murder?
Post by: Plu on February 15, 2013, 12:25:20 PM
QuoteI can, listen i feel for him, i have young kids and i this is unimaginable to me but citizens can't be vigilantes for the simple reason is they don't know what they are doing.

I know, I don't agree with the vigilantism either. But I consider the punishment the man got, despite being applied unlawfully, to be fitting with the crime.

Quotewhy stop at shooting drunk drivers? why not everyone that committs a crime? there is a reason there are varying punishments because punishments need to fit the crime.

The crime for drunk driving isn't fitting for the punishment. Driving drunk should be attempted manslaughter always. Instead, it's generally a slap on the wrist.
Title: Re: A justifiable murder?
Post by: wolf39us on February 15, 2013, 12:28:37 PM
While I understand that the father is broken by this...  He is not justified, and I do believe I WOULD convict him of murder.
Title: Re: A justifiable murder?
Post by: SilentFutility on February 15, 2013, 02:24:24 PM
Quote from: "Jmpty"Bullshit.
How polite.

Quote from: "Jmpty"That only applies to social drinkers. If this guy was an untreated alcoholic, he lost the choice of making reasonable decisions when he developed alcoholism.
If someone isn't of sound mind then when they commit a crime it still isn't a 'mistake'. If they are mentally ill or they are no longer capable of looking after themselves and making rational decisions then they definitely do have diminished responsibility for their actions, but they still did something very wrong all the same.

Quote from: "Jmpty"There is NO excuse to justify shooting an unarmed person in the head.
I didn't justify shooting anybody. I expressed my views on drink driving. I definitely think that the killing of the drunk driver was a crime and should be treated as such.

Obviously I'm just talking bullshit because you so kindly say so though.
Title: Re: A justifiable murder?
Post by: Jmpty on February 15, 2013, 02:48:33 PM
Quote from: "Plu"
QuoteI can, listen i feel for him, i have young kids and i this is unimaginable to me but citizens can't be vigilantes for the simple reason is they don't know what they are doing.

I know, I don't agree with the vigilantism either. But I consider the punishment the man got, despite being applied unlawfully, to be fitting with the crime.

Quotewhy stop at shooting drunk drivers? why not everyone that committs a crime? there is a reason there are varying punishments because punishments need to fit the crime.

The crime for drunk driving isn't fitting for the punishment. Driving drunk should be attempted manslaughter always. Instead, it's generally a slap on the wrist.

What about texting while driving? Or speeding?
Title: Re: A justifiable murder?
Post by: Plu on February 15, 2013, 03:31:42 PM
QuoteWhat about texting while driving? Or speeding?

As far as I'm concerned, the third time you get caught not paying attention to the road and obeying the traffic rules, you should be dragged out on the street and executed.

You're operating a 2000 pound machine moving at high velocity, learn to treat it as the dangerous device it is.
Title: Re: A justifiable murder?
Post by: buttfinger on February 15, 2013, 05:24:23 PM
Speeding.  Merp.

Speed limits are well lower than is safe to operate a vehicle in the area they are posted.  Very seldom is it warranted that they be as low as they are.
Title: Re: A justifiable murder?
Post by: Jmpty on February 15, 2013, 05:39:52 PM
Quote from: "buttfinger"Speeding.  Merp.

Speed limits are well lower than is safe to operate a vehicle in the area they are posted.  Very seldom is it warranted that they be as low as they are.

You have some facts or statistics to back that up?
Title: Re: A justifiable murder?
Post by: buttfinger on February 15, 2013, 05:43:20 PM
15 years driving experience is all I need.  IDGAF if you agree with me or not.
Title: Re: A justifiable murder?
Post by: Plu on February 15, 2013, 05:48:37 PM
Is the road safe for people with 1 month of driving experience as well? It's kinda useless if it's safe for you and everyone else gets themselves killed.
Title: Re: A justifiable murder?
Post by: Jmpty on February 15, 2013, 05:53:17 PM
Quote from: "buttfinger"15 years driving experience is all I need.  IDGAF if you agree with me or not.

You may learn that talking out of your ass is frowned upon here.

•Speed was a factor in 30 percent (12,477) of all traffic fatalities in 1998, second only to alcohol (39 percent) as a cause of fatal crashes.
 •(National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, or NHTSA, 1999)
 •In 1998, 40,000 people were critically injured in speeding-related crashes, 72,000 were moderately injured and 599,000 received minor injuries. (NHTSA, 1999)
 •The economic cost to society of speeding-related crashes is estimated at $27.7 billion per year. (NHTSA, 1999)
 •Crash forces on impact double with every 10 mile per hour increase in speed above 50 miles per hour. As crash forces increase, so does one�s chances of being killed or seriously injured in a crash. (NHTSA, 1995)
 •Young drivers (under 30 years old) are more likely to speed than other drivers. Of all drivers involved in fatal crashes, young males are most likely to speed. The relative proportion of speeding-related fatal crashes decreases with increasing driver age. (NHTSA, 1999)
 •Alcohol involvement and speeding often go hand-in-hand. In 1998, 43 percent of drivers with a 0.10 BAC or higher who were involved in fatal crashes were speeding, compared with 14 percent of the sober (0.00 BAC) drivers in fatal crashes. (NHTSA, 1999)
Title: Re: A justifiable murder?
Post by: buttfinger on February 15, 2013, 06:38:42 PM
Speed is a factor in 100% of traffic accidents, as traffic accidents always involve a moving vehicle.  The metric is meaningless.  The last one is actually laughable, as it admits alcohol was the causal factor.
Title: Re: A justifiable murder?
Post by: buttfinger on February 15, 2013, 06:39:36 PM
Quote from: "Plu"Is the road safe for people with 1 month of driving experience as well? It's kinda useless if it's safe for you and everyone else gets themselves killed.
The road is no more or less safe for anyone on it, regardless of experience, or even if they're the vehicle's operator.
Title: Re: A justifiable murder?
Post by: Colanth on February 15, 2013, 09:21:51 PM
Butt, more than your 15 years of actually investigating accidents says that if you ever have a clue about motor vehicle accidents, it'll be your first one.  The claim that about 1/3 of accidents were caused by speeding sounds about right.  (Depending on conditions, 30mph in a 55mph zone could be excessive - something your 15 years of experience probably hasn't taught you yet.)
Title: Re: A justifiable murder?
Post by: buttfinger on February 15, 2013, 09:37:23 PM
Yeah, gotta disagree.  Law enforcement's job is to reinforce the laws that they're enforcing.  This is why we blame the cell phone rather than the idiot who can't put it down for a second to change lanes.  A guy's driving like an asshole?  Can we blame speed rather than the asshole who's driving?  Then SPEED did it!
Title: Re: A justifiable murder?
Post by: PapaSmurf34 on February 16, 2013, 12:35:25 AM
Quote from: "SilentFutility"
Quote from: "PapaSmurf34"Not justifiable at all. Obviously the father could not have known what the BAC of the driver was when he shot him. For all the father knew the man could have been a diabetic and had a low blood sugar which can imitate the effects of being drunk. The father was in a fit of rage and although I sympathize with him and can see why he would have done it he was not justified, at least in any legal sense, in shooting the driver.
In which case you should absolutely not drive. If you are diabetic and are halfway towards a diabetic coma your ability to drive is definitely impaired. If you have any medical condition which has the same symptoms of drunkenness you are not fit to drive and by doing so you are being irresponsible and risking not only your own life, but the lives of others around you.

But the onset of symptoms of low blood sugar can in some cases be very rapid. The driver in question could have been feeling fine when he got behind the wheel and then had a sudden onset of hypoglycemia. I could sit here and talk more about diabtetes and hypoglysemia but that wasn't my point. My point was at the time of the shooting the father did not have all the facts and couldn't have known the driver's BAC. He was not justified legally in what he did. Trust me my sympathies are with the man who lost two children and not with the drunk driver. I hate when people drive drunk and think it is a very serious crime that should have harsher penalties than it already has, but that doesn't mean the father was justified in shooting the driver and he should be convicted for the crime he commited.
Title: Re: A justifiable murder?
Post by: PapaSmurf34 on February 16, 2013, 12:36:17 AM
Quote from: "SilentFutility"
Quote from: "PapaSmurf34"Not justifiable at all. Obviously the father could not have known what the BAC of the driver was when he shot him. For all the father knew the man could have been a diabetic and had a low blood sugar which can imitate the effects of being drunk. The father was in a fit of rage and although I sympathize with him and can see why he would have done it he was not justified, at least in any legal sense, in shooting the driver.
In which case you should absolutely not drive. If you are diabetic and are halfway towards a diabetic coma your ability to drive is definitely impaired. If you have any medical condition which has the same symptoms of drunkenness you are not fit to drive and by doing so you are being irresponsible and risking not only your own life, but the lives of others around you.

But the onset of symptoms of low blood sugar can in some cases be very rapid. The driver in question could have been feeling fine when he got behind the wheel and then had a sudden onset of hypoglycemia. I could sit here and talk more about diabtetes and hypoglysemia but that wasn't my point. My point was at the time of the shooting the father did not have all the facts and couldn't have known the driver's BAC. He was not justified legally in what he did. Trust me my sympathies are with the man who lost two children and not with the drunk driver. I hate when people drive drunk and think it is a very serious crime that should have harsher penalties than it already has, but that doesn't mean the father was justified in shooting the driver and he should be convicted for the crime he commited.
Title: Re: A justifiable murder?
Post by: ThePilgrim101 on February 16, 2013, 12:36:40 AM
Quote from: "buttfinger"
Quote from: "Bobby_Ouroborus"Vigilantism is a breakdown of the social order...no good can come of it.
Social order is the cradle of tyranny and unilateral injustice.

Social order is what allows me to go to work in the mornings with the expectation that others won't harm me =/

We, as humans, came together because we all agreed harming each other was not in each others best interests. We then thought further and decided that, for our society, failure to abide by our constructs would require punishment equal to the crime that did not violate our own rules unless necessary. Barakas took revenge, not justice.

What's that saying? "An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind."
Title: Re: A justifiable murder?
Post by: buttfinger on February 16, 2013, 12:48:39 AM
Quote from: "ThePilgrim101"Social order is what allows me to go to work in the mornings with the expectation that others won't harm me =/
It's also what allows a gang of blue-clad thugs to rob you of your earthly possessions for the ungodly crime of growing poppies.
Title: Re: A justifiable murder?
Post by: Plu on February 16, 2013, 07:56:49 AM
Quote from: "buttfinger"
Quote from: "Plu"Is the road safe for people with 1 month of driving experience as well? It's kinda useless if it's safe for you and everyone else gets themselves killed.
The road is no more or less safe for anyone on it, regardless of experience, or even if they're the vehicle's operator.

This just sounds so stupid it makes me think you are joking. The road doesn't become any less safe if people drive faster? Are you serious?
Title: Re: A justifiable murder?
Post by: buttfinger on February 16, 2013, 08:22:09 AM
Quote from: "Plu"This just sounds so stupid it makes me think you are joking. The road doesn't become any less safe if people drive faster? Are you serious?
Reread what I wrote, this time with your reading comprehension glasses on.  that post says "regardless of experience" not "regardless of speed".  I share the same traffic as people with 1/2, 1/3, or even less experience than myself, as well as with people who have twice as much driving experience or more.  I have no control over the skill level of other drivers.  Experience doesn't negate dangers, it merely gives me the ability to address how they affect my own vehicle.  The road is no more safe for me than it is for a new driver, I'm just better at avoiding the dangers of it.
Title: Re: A justifiable murder?
Post by: buttfinger on February 16, 2013, 08:25:30 AM
Quote from: "drunkenshoe"
Quote from: "Plu"
QuoteThe thing is though, driving drunk isn't a mistake. It is a decision that your convienience of getting where you want to go easily without having to walk, take a taxi or take public transport is more important than the lives of everybody you're endangering by driving drunk/high. It is an abhorrent thing to do and it isn't an accident, it is simply just not caring that you're risking killing someone's wife/brother/son/girlfriend/daughter so that you can get home more quickly.

This. So much.

Agreed.
And the circle-jerk begins.
Title: Re: A justifiable murder?
Post by: Plu on February 16, 2013, 09:22:14 AM
You seem to be channeling a large amount of "asshole" there.
Title: Re: A justifiable murder?
Post by: buttfinger on February 16, 2013, 09:32:43 AM
Quote from: "Plu"You seem to be channeling a large amount of "asshole" there.
Reflecting it, anyway.
Title: Re: A justifiable murder?
Post by: Colanth on February 16, 2013, 09:39:07 AM
Right - if the whole world disagrees with you, you're not wrong.
Title: Re: A justifiable murder?
Post by: buttfinger on February 16, 2013, 09:42:47 AM
It's not about disagreement, it's about the way in which you folks disagree with others.  Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.  Give it and you get it.  I couldn't care less about disagreement, I only care about he way in which you do it.
Title: Re: A justifiable murder?
Post by: SilentFutility on February 16, 2013, 01:55:35 PM
Quote from: "buttfinger"Speeding.  Merp.

Speed limits are well lower than is safe to operate a vehicle in the area they are posted.  Very seldom is it warranted that they be as low as they are.
Quote from: "buttfinger"15 years driving experience is all I need.  IDGAF if you agree with me or not.
So your 15 years of driving experience gives you the knowledge that speed limits all over the entire world are in the absolute vast majority of cases far too low? Visited and driven in the majority of the countries in the world? No? How can you claim this then?

Quote from: "PapaSmurf34"But the onset of symptoms of low blood sugar can in some cases be very rapid. The driver in question could have been feeling fine when he got behind the wheel and then had a sudden onset of hypoglycemia. I could sit here and talk more about diabtetes and hypoglysemia but that wasn't my point. My point was at the time of the shooting the father did not have all the facts and couldn't have known the driver's BAC. He was not justified legally in what he did. Trust me my sympathies are with the man who lost two children and not with the drunk driver. I hate when people drive drunk and think it is a very serious crime that should have harsher penalties than it already has, but that doesn't mean the father was justified in shooting the driver and he should be convicted for the crime he commited.
If you suddenly feel unfit to drive you should stop as soon as is safely possible.

As for your actual point, I do agree with you that the killing was unlawful.


Quote from: "buttfinger"And the circle-jerk begins.
Quote from: "buttfinger"
Quote from: "Plu"You seem to be channeling a large amount of "asshole" there.
Reflecting it, anyway.
So everyone else is being an asshole, despite it being you who is calling two people agreeing with someone else a "circle-jerk" without any justification other than you felt like antagonising people?
Quote from: "buttfinger"It's not about disagreement, it's about the way in which you folks disagree with others.  Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.  Give it and you get it.  I couldn't care less about disagreement, I only care about he way in which you do it.
You've been rather rude to people simply for agreeing with something that I said.
Title: Re: A justifiable murder?
Post by: Fidel_Castronaut on February 16, 2013, 02:18:11 PM
Quote from: "drunkenshoe"
Quote from: "Plu"
QuoteThe thing is though, driving drunk isn't a mistake. It is a decision that your convienience of getting where you want to go easily without having to walk, take a taxi or take public transport is more important than the lives of everybody you're endangering by driving drunk/high. It is an abhorrent thing to do and it isn't an accident, it is simply just not caring that you're risking killing someone's wife/brother/son/girlfriend/daughter so that you can get home more quickly.

This. So much.

Agreed.

+3.
Title: Re: A justifiable murder?
Post by: Mermaid on February 16, 2013, 02:24:08 PM
Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"Understandable, but not justifiable.
Agree.
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Post by: Farroc on February 16, 2013, 09:03:59 PM
It was unlawful, and it was unjustified, but I wouldn't put him in prison for it. What point would there be? The reason murderers should go to prison isn't for the sake of punishing them, that's stupid. Murderers go to jail in order to prevent them from murdering them again. Screw the law. There is a fine line between revenge and justice.
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Post by: Plu on February 17, 2013, 05:13:50 AM
Not sending him to prison will send out a message though. That's probably not what you want, because it'll start happening more.
Title: Re: A justifiable murder?
Post by: LoneQuietus on February 17, 2013, 06:09:04 AM
I'll agree that I think it's understandable, but not justifiable. I think it would be different, had the father had the weapon on him and he acted out of a fit of rage and despair. Going to his house and back to retrieve a weapon, I think, creates a grey area. Who is to say how long his rage should have been appropriate to persist? Is there even an appropriate period of time on that short of a time scale to get your head back after watching two of your kids get slaughtered in a grisly way? I'm not sure anyone else caught it, but they were rear-ended while the kids were pushing. They were crushed in plain sight. As a father of two, I know I'd be damn-near psychotic in that situation.

Speaking as someone with anger issues, I can almost imagine being in such a frenzy that I could storm into my house with only one thought in my head, collect my gun, and get back to the offender. That's a big part of what being enraged is: only being able to hold one (angry) thought in your head at a time. He might have a case if he tries to call it a Crime of Passion.

As far as being on a jury: if the question is murder, then yes, he definitely murdered another human being, evidence withstanding. I seriously doubt he'll get off, but I'm not sure sending him to prison on a life sentence is actually making society safer. He needs to be punished, sure, but I don't really think putting him away is making the world safer.
Title: Re: A justifiable murder?
Post by: surly74 on February 17, 2013, 10:41:33 AM
Quote from: "buttfinger"What a well-reasoned response.  And insightful too.

Quit with the character assassination and make a real response.

character assassination? really? i've made real responses. you post something you'd find in Rage Against the Machine lyrics.
Title: Re: A justifiable murder?
Post by: surly74 on February 17, 2013, 11:04:47 AM
Quote from: "Colanth"Butt, more than your 15 years of actually investigating accidents says that if you ever have a clue about motor vehicle accidents, it'll be your first one.  The claim that about 1/3 of accidents were caused by speeding sounds about right.  (Depending on conditions, 30mph in a 55mph zone could be excessive - something your 15 years of experience probably hasn't taught you yet.)

what does caused by speed mean? too fast compared to reaction times?
Title: Re: A justifiable murder?
Post by: surly74 on February 17, 2013, 11:13:06 AM
Quote from: "Plu"
Quote from: "buttfinger"
Quote from: "Plu"Is the road safe for people with 1 month of driving experience as well? It's kinda useless if it's safe for you and everyone else gets themselves killed.
The road is no more or less safe for anyone on it, regardless of experience, or even if they're the vehicle's operator.

This just sounds so stupid it makes me think you are joking. The road doesn't become any less safe if people drive faster? Are you serious?

if this was the point he was making he would still have a valid point.

//http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/news/editorial/story.html?id=02ba28f0-86a5-4250-9bd2-d1c2ae606a5b

[spoil]Following the 1973 oil crisis and the U.S. government's imposition of a national 55 mph (88 km/h) limit, statistical analyses indicate highway safety worsened. And when Congress finally repealed federal speed limits in November 1995, to much caterwauling from the "speed-kills" crowd, with dire predictions of 6,400 increased deaths and a million additional injuries, the actual effect was diametrically opposite. Traffic deaths dropped to a record low by 1997, including in the 33 states that had immediately raised their speed limits. Meanwhile, Americans saved about 200 million person-hours in terms of less time spent on the road, with a reported net economic benefit of higher speed limits of $2 billion to $3 billion a year. A U.S. National Research Council panel pegged the cost of the 55-mph limit at about one billion person-hours per year./spoil]

if you want 100% safe roads, don't allow cars on them.
Title:
Post by: Jmpty on February 17, 2013, 12:19:07 PM
http://www.cga.ct.gov/2013/rpt/2013-R-0074.htm (http://www.cga.ct.gov/2013/rpt/2013-R-0074.htm)

Here are some different statistics.
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Post by: the_antithesis on February 17, 2013, 12:50:10 PM
I don't think this was justifiable, but it is understandable. Before I read the article, and the article finally got to the order of events, I thought the guy went and killed the guy days later, but it was right after it happened. This could make for a good temporary insanity plea or something like that. Heat of the moment and shit. But that doesn't mean it was justified.
Title: Re: A justifiable murder?
Post by: Jason78 on February 17, 2013, 01:08:08 PM
Quote from: "buttfinger"15 years driving experience is all I need.  IDGAF if you agree with me or not.
If you can't drive under the posted speed limit, then you are not in control of your vehicle.

Not being in control of your vehicle automatically puts you at fault if you have an accident.

Guess what happens to you if you kill someone doing that?
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Post by: Plu on February 17, 2013, 01:13:39 PM
55mp/h sounds unnaturally slow  :| Even 65 actually sounds pretty slow.

That puts things in an interesting new perspective. Dutch traffic law allows 80mph on highways. Which is fast, and which people are still pushing of course, but it's possible to do so more or less safely. As long as the road quality is high enough, anyway. We have an advantage there considering the short distances.

The biggest danger (as far as I know) is the difference in speed between drivers though, which is why both people going over the limit and people sticking under the limit should be fined for it.
Title: Re:
Post by: surly74 on February 19, 2013, 11:12:18 AM
Quote from: "Jmpty"http://www.cga.ct.gov/2013/rpt/2013-R-0074.htm

Here are some different statistics.

they are different. It's also interesting that while fatalities go up from the initial limits they then decrease the higher they go.
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Post by: The Skeletal Atheist on February 19, 2013, 05:48:19 PM
I have absolutely zero sympathy for the drunk driver who was shot in the head, I only wish he would've made contact with a tree and killed himself instead of someone else.

That being said, this is a homicide and it should be treated as such. Morally justifiable? That's up for debate, though I can see why the father would react in such a way. Legally justifiable? No. Here's hoping that the court sees the fact that he just watched his children get killed as a mitigating factor and reduce whatever sentence they decide to lay down on him.
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Post by: Hurt on February 19, 2013, 10:41:22 PM
The family of the two boys should have counseling provided and the county's deepest apologies for not doing enough to keep idiots from driving drunk. The county should purchase a firearm to replace the one the father ditched and a box of ammo.

Here in Texas jackasses can get tagged for DUI/DWI multiple times and still be on the road. When I contemplate someone killing my child in this manner - 50 miles wouldn't be enough for me to calm down enough to not shoot the bastard.

I think he showed great restraint by only firing one round - I would have emptied an entire magazine.

I'm glad he's dead and his family should replace the truck his son ruined.
Title: Re: A justifiable murder?
Post by: commonsense822 on February 20, 2013, 06:49:54 PM
I think this guy honestly could have gotten away with it with a plea of temporary insanity if he hadn't disposed of the gun.  They tested him for GSR so it is going to show that he either fired a gun or not recently, even though the case could be made that he fired a gun recently but it wasn't the one that shot the driver.  The neighbors said they heard gunshots minutes after the accident and his house is only 50 yards away, that's half a football field.  And the amount of time is definitely appropriate for a window of temporary insanity.  But he threw away the gun, which shows the he was able to tell right from wrong enough to dispose of the murder weapon.  If they find the gun he's fucked.  If not he's got a chance.

As far as justifiable murder, it's hard to say.  I don't believe that citizens should be bypassing the justice system for revenge.  But if he actually had a moment of temporary insanity via shock from a traumatic event then I might be inclined to let him go.  Considering it looks like he killed the guy, and that he tossed the gun afterwards, promotes the possibility that he took revenge, not a psychotic break.  So, not justifiable, but I might consider a reduced sentence.  My ruling.
Title: Re: A justifiable murder?
Post by: OtterPop on February 21, 2013, 12:51:15 AM
Quote from: "commonsense822"I think this guy honestly could have gotten away with it with a plea of temporary insanity if he hadn't disposed of the gun.  They tested him for GSR so it is going to show that he either fired a gun or not recently, even though the case could be made that he fired a gun recently but it wasn't the one that shot the driver.  The neighbors said they heard gunshots minutes after the accident and his house is only 50 yards away, that's half a football field.  And the amount of time is definitely appropriate for a window of temporary insanity.  But he threw away the gun, which shows the he was able to tell right from wrong enough to dispose of the murder weapon.  If they find the gun he's fucked.  If not he's got a chance.

As far as justifiable murder, it's hard to say.  I don't believe that citizens should be bypassing the justice system for revenge.  But if he actually had a moment of temporary insanity via shock from a traumatic event then I might be inclined to let him go.  Considering it looks like he killed the guy, and that he tossed the gun afterwards, promotes the possibility that he took revenge, not a psychotic break.  So, not justifiable, but I might consider a reduced sentence.  My ruling.
Knowing right from wrong is different from thinking, "Oh shit, that was illegal." Well... sort of. I TOTALLY understand this man's actions. I don't CONDONE it, but 300% understand how a parent could think, "HERE is the fucker that murdered my kids." Go home and back and come kill them, and then it hits them, "Oh SHIT!" Similarly, I would likely never condemn them in court.
Title: Re: A justifiable murder?
Post by: Shiranu on February 21, 2013, 04:28:16 AM
Quote from: "Poison Tree"If the guy had just whipped out a gun and shot, then I could see temporary insanity. But walking home, arming yourself, going back, then shooting a guy? That's starting to sound long enough to be per-meditated. I can't say what I would have done in his place (It is not a situation I can honestly place myself in), but as a nation of law and order he needs to be tried and "I would have wanted revenge, too" cannot be a sufficient defense.

This, especially last bit.
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Post by: Jutter on February 21, 2013, 05:48:34 AM
So there's the drunk driving part.
Then there's the temporary insanity or not part.
The vindictive vigilante part.
Other's have tackled those aspects already.

Maybe this should tie in with the gun-controll discussion as well. Acceptable uses of a gun would be self-defense, hunting, target shooting... but would a gun owner add revenge to that list during a debate on gun-controll?
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Post by: Mathias on February 21, 2013, 06:00:59 AM
In this case I think the guy would with an ax, a baseball bat, what ever, and arms control would not be the primary issue. I still think the guy has to pay for what he did (just being parents to know what it is to lose a child), but the reason should be taken into account as a mitigating.
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Post by: Plu on February 21, 2013, 07:11:47 AM
To be honest, if I were in that situation I would not be surprised if I'd beaten the guy to death with a tire iron. I don't think the gun really plays into it here, since the main reason for murder appears to be blind rage.
Title: Re:
Post by: Thumpalumpacus on February 21, 2013, 11:38:16 AM
Quote from: "Jutter"[...]but would a gun owner add revenge to that list during a debate on gun-controll?

No, and nor should he.

I've not heard one gun owner argue that, either.
Title: Re:
Post by: commonsense822 on February 21, 2013, 01:38:55 PM
Quote from: "Jutter"So there's the drunk driving part.
Then there's the temporary insanity or not part.
The vindictive vigilante part.
Other's have tackled those aspects already.

Maybe this should tie in with the gun-controll discussion as well. Acceptable uses of a gun would be self-defense, hunting, target shooting... but would a gun owner add revenge to that list during a debate on gun-controll?

That guy was going to die, whether or not he had a gun.