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Humanities Section => History General Discussion => Topic started by: AllPurposeAtheist on June 12, 2014, 01:55:53 PM

Title: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: AllPurposeAtheist on June 12, 2014, 01:55:53 PM
http://m.thenation.com/article/180175-america-war-record-unparalleled-failure
TheNation's Tom Englehardt makes a damned good case of why US military is by far the biggest failure of all time despite being richer than any nation on earth including the nation funding it.
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: SGOS on June 12, 2014, 02:46:22 PM
Quote from: AllPurposeAtheist on June 12, 2014, 01:55:53 PM
http://m.thenation.com/article/180175-america-war-record-unparalleled-failure
TheNation's Tom Englehardt makes a damned good case of why US military is by far the biggest failure of all time despite being richer than any nation on earth including the nation funding it.


Quote1. No matter how you define American-style war or its goals, it doesn't work. Ever.

2. No matter how you pose the problems of our world, it doesn't solve them. Never.

3. No matter how often you cite the use of military force to "stabilize" or "protect" or "liberate" countries or regions, it is a destabilizing force.

4. No matter how regularly you praise the American way of war and its "warriors," the US military is incapable of winning its wars.

5. No matter how often American presidents claim that the US military is "the finest fighting force in history," the evidence is in: it isn't.

Congress needs to have a discussion on these points.  Americans are still remembering the glory of World War II, and haven't noticed that none of our wars have gone that way for the last 75 years.
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: AllPurposeAtheist on June 12, 2014, 03:02:51 PM
 Congress won't because congress enriches itself on the proceeds of such folly. The MIC dumps billions into campaign coffers and of course every plane, every boat and every fucking shoestring worn on military boots are made in every single voting district BAR NONE. It's JOBS JOBS JOBS.
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: Mandingo on June 21, 2014, 12:32:27 PM
Quote from: AllPurposeAtheist on June 12, 2014, 03:02:51 PM
Congress won't because congress enriches itself on the proceeds of such folly. The MIC dumps billions into campaign coffers and of course every plane, every boat and every fucking shoestring worn on military boots are made in every single voting district BAR NONE. It's JOBS JOBS JOBS.

"JOBS JOBS JOBS" is just a great big fig leaf everybody keeps falling for. Smoke & mirrors.
They â€" the puppeteers, the multi-billionaires â€" couldn't care less about jobs IRL.
What they are really interested in is war contracts and war profits = milking the tax payer dry.

Members of Congress, the Feds, the cops, the justice system, and the media are only their executive puppets. Corruption incarnate.
Democracy in 'the land of the free' is just a galaxy-sized sad joke. 'Voters' have no power whatsoever.
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on June 21, 2014, 12:52:56 PM
Ah, this explains why the USofA collapsed, like the USSR.
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: Mandingo on June 21, 2014, 04:23:20 PM
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on June 21, 2014, 12:52:56 PM
Ah, this explains why the USofA collapsed, like the USSR.

Matter of time.
But inevitable.
First the USA outcompeted the USSR with the arms race, so that the USSR went bankrupt. They couldn't keep up spending. And then there was civil war. Remember Yeltsin on top of a tank beleaguering the parliament? It's pure luck â€" and the fact that the Russian populace didn't have weapons â€" that that civil war was doused so quickly and without great mayhem.

Now the USA is busy outcompeting (= overspending) itself. Remember Bush's 13 TRILLION national debt (that is still hanging over all American citizens' heads for the next 2/3 centuries)?
Consequence: there will be civil war. In a country with nearly 300 million fire arms in the hands of the rabble.
Imagine the destruction and misery for the millions of innocent bystanders.

Make a note.
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on June 21, 2014, 06:58:41 PM
Quote from: Mandingo on June 21, 2014, 04:23:20 PM
Matter of time.
But inevitable.
Sorry, but I'm a historian. I'll just wait and see.
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: Mandingo on June 21, 2014, 08:55:15 PM
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on June 21, 2014, 06:58:41 PM
Sorry, but I'm a historian. I'll just wait and see.

Then you haven't learned from history, and are obviously condemned to make the same mistakes again.
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: Hakurei Reimu on June 22, 2014, 07:51:37 PM
I think we lost those wars because everyone knew they were farces. Restricted wars, not total war. WWII was the last total war.
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on June 22, 2014, 07:59:43 PM
Quote from: Mandingo on June 21, 2014, 08:55:15 PM
Then you haven't learned from history, and are obviously condemned to make the same mistakes again.
Or I've learned enough to not make silly assertions.
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: Nam on June 22, 2014, 08:17:35 PM
Actually, I think the US military is effective, the people behind the military (politicians, citizens) usually are not. Winning isn't difficult, what is difficult is stabilization afterward which Americans seem to not want to participate in.

Vietnam could have been a win for the US if they didn't leave as abruptly as "we" did. There was actually some stabilization in South Vietnam, and its own military had over a million soldiers while North Vietnam had quite a bit less than that but Americans had enough of the war, the loss of life, etc., and wanted out, and so Nixon ended it and South Vietnam fell apart because they still needed the backing of the US. Look at North Korea, we're still there but we left Vietnam.

Americans (for the most part) like to believe they won WWII, but, there were many other countries already fighting, and all the US did was help shorten the war, especially with Japan by using atomic bombs. The war with Japan, from what I've read over the years, would have carried on til about 1947-1950 -- so, was it really that necessary to bomb them? Most say "yes", few say "no".

The US has an effective military, it has an ineffective country.

-Nam
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: frosty on June 23, 2014, 03:33:53 AM
Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on June 22, 2014, 07:51:37 PM
I think we lost those wars because everyone knew they were farces. Restricted wars, not total war. WWII was the last total war.

I get your point, but I wonder if the family members of those killed, maimed, detained, tortured or displaced as a result of said wars would agree on the 'restricted' part. I don't think they would.
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: Moralnihilist on June 23, 2014, 09:41:59 AM
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on June 21, 2014, 06:58:41 PM
Sorry, but I'm a historian. I'll just wait and see.

No offense, but as a historian you should be well aware that ALL empires fall.

Quote from: Mandingo on June 21, 2014, 04:23:20 PM
Matter of time.
But inevitable.
First the USA outcompeted the USSR with the arms race, so that the USSR went bankrupt. They couldn't keep up spending. And then there was civil war. Remember Yeltsin on top of a tank beleaguering the parliament? It's pure luck â€" and the fact that the Russian populace didn't have weapons â€" that that civil war was doused so quickly and without great mayhem.

Now the USA is busy outcompeting (= overspending) itself. Remember Bush's 13 TRILLION national debt (that is still hanging over all American citizens' heads for the next 2/3 centuries)?
Consequence: there will be civil war. In a country with nearly 300 million fire arms in the hands of the rabble.
Imagine the destruction and misery for the millions of innocent bystanders.

Make a note.

In regards to the latter 2/3 of this post, I believe(based off of no evidence what so ever), that you are incorrect. A modern civil war in the U.S. would be squashed quite quickly. Yes American civilians have plenty of guns, however the U.S. military has more(and tanks, jets, E.O.D.'s, etc) It would be a brutal conflict, but a short one.

However most empires fall due to outside forces, not internal. This is the route that I think that the U.S. is on. But I don't believe that it will be a complete collapse, Im leaning more toward another country(or collective of countries) coming up as the dominate economic power, with the U.S. remaining as the big dog(militarily speaking).

Your Friendly PhD
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on June 23, 2014, 09:44:29 AM
Quote from: Moralnihilist on June 23, 2014, 09:41:59 AM
No offense, but as a historian you should be well aware that ALL empires fall.
Yep, but when and why are always interesting questions.
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: stromboli on June 23, 2014, 10:09:43 AM
Quote from: Moralnihilist on June 23, 2014, 09:41:59 AM
No offense, but as a historian you should be well aware that ALL empires fall.

In regards to the latter 2/3 of this post, I believe(based off of no evidence what so ever), that you are incorrect. A modern civil war in the U.S. would be squashed quite quickly. Yes American civilians have plenty of guns, however the U.S. military has more(and tanks, jets, E.O.D.'s, etc) It would be a brutal conflict, but a short one.

However most empires fall due to outside forces, not internal. This is the route that I think that the U.S. is on. But I don't believe that it will be a complete collapse, Im leaning more toward another country(or collective of countries) coming up as the dominate economic power, with the U.S. remaining as the big dog(militarily speaking).

Your Friendly PhD

Pretty much this. But I disagree on one point- collapse comes from internal sources as much as outer. The wars we fight now are as much fabrication as real, simply to maintain the illusion of the need for a gigantic super military. The oligarchy that now runs congress and most of our economy is based on not only a military industrial complex but a stubborn unwillingness to change to newer renewable resources and rethink the grand old capitalism in a new way. Our infratructure, both physically and economically, is old outmoded and crumbling.

A civil war is in no one's best interest. Regardless of the noise made by various radical right wing/left wing pundits, the society as a whole is too complacent to think in those terms. we see the erosion of the middle class, but overall we are still living better lives than people like the Syrians or other countries driven to revolution by loss of resources, jobs and so forth.
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: SGOS on June 23, 2014, 11:10:02 AM
Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on June 22, 2014, 07:51:37 PM
I think we lost those wars because everyone knew they were farces. Restricted wars, not total war. WWII was the last total war.
It's hard to win a war when you restrict your options.  However, in terms of what we are talking about here, I would suggest that the purpose of recent wars has not been to win.  It's more to stuff the pockets of favored sectors of our population.  Winning would end the chaos too soon.  There would be too much money not spent that could further enrich the favored.
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on June 23, 2014, 11:57:47 AM
The only time you can say an empire has collapsed is when it actually has.
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: stromboli on June 23, 2014, 12:30:04 PM
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on June 23, 2014, 11:57:47 AM
The only time you can say an empire has collapsed is when it actually has.

True enough. I don't see the US collapsing in the sense of the Roman Empire. There's nobody out there with the wherewithal to invade. But economically, with the level of greed shown by the oligarchy, there will be a greater separation of rich and poor and the loss of what we really need, a progressive mindset to deal with our problems and move us forward.
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on June 23, 2014, 12:33:51 PM
Quote from: stromboli on June 23, 2014, 12:30:04 PM
True enough. I don't see the US collapsing in the sense of the Roman Empire. There's nobody out there with the wherewithal to invade. But economically, with the level of greed shown by the oligarchy, there will be a greater separation of rich and poor and the loss of what we really need, a progressive mindset to deal with our problems and move us forward.
Elysium option.

But, of course, that just puts the US more in line with the rest of the planet.
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: stromboli on June 23, 2014, 01:09:58 PM
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on June 23, 2014, 12:33:51 PM
Elysium option.

But, of course, that just puts the US more in line with the rest of the planet.

I seriously hope that movie is not prophetic.
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: Mandingo on June 23, 2014, 01:11:36 PM
Quote from: SGOS on June 23, 2014, 11:10:02 AM
It's hard to win a war when you restrict your options.  However, in terms of what we are talking about here, I would suggest that the purpose of recent wars has not been to win.  It's more to stuff the pockets of favored sectors of our population.  Winning would end the chaos too soon.  There would be too much money not spent that could further enrich the favored.

^ This!

"The favored" = the multi-billionaires.
Members of Congress, the Feds, the cops, the justice system, and the media are only their liberally remunerated executive puppets. Corruption incarnate.
Democracy in 'the land of the free' is just a galaxy-sized sad joke. 'Voters' have no power whatsoever. 'The system' is rotten to the core. Time for a new revolution.
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on June 23, 2014, 01:49:10 PM
Quote from: stromboli on June 23, 2014, 01:09:58 PM
I seriously hope that movie is not prophetic.
Ever been to Rio?
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: AllPurposeAtheist on June 23, 2014, 02:13:47 PM
Define winning. When we end up with 100s and 1000s of people killed and maimed and returning with their lives ruined it hardly counts as a 'win'. There is no winning.
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on June 23, 2014, 03:12:00 PM
Quote from: AllPurposeAtheist on June 23, 2014, 02:13:47 PM
Define winning. When we end up with 100s and 1000s of people killed and maimed and returning with their lives ruined it hardly counts as a 'win'. There is no winning.
The Civil War had the highest casualty rate.
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: Mandingo on June 23, 2014, 03:46:03 PM
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on June 23, 2014, 03:12:00 PM
The Civil War had the highest casualty rate.

In WWII the USSR suffered 40 times as many casualties as the US did. 20 million lives lost. Most Americans ignore that completely.
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on June 23, 2014, 03:47:01 PM
Quote from: Mandingo on June 23, 2014, 03:46:03 PM
In WWII the USSR suffered 40 times as many casualties as the US did. 20 million lives lost. Most Americans ignore that completely.
Yep, most. Most Americans believe in God.
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: Mandingo on June 23, 2014, 07:29:56 PM
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on June 23, 2014, 03:47:01 PM
Yep, most. Most Americans believe in God.

That tells you how much common sense they have...
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: Hakurei Reimu on June 23, 2014, 09:28:50 PM
Quote from: frosty on June 23, 2014, 03:33:53 AM
I get your point, but I wonder if the family members of those killed, maimed, detained, tortured or displaced as a result of said wars would agree on the 'restricted' part. I don't think they would.
I did mean "restricted war" as opposed to "total war" â€" they're technical definitions. This does not diminish the horror of their suffering.
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on June 23, 2014, 09:38:15 PM
Quote from: Mandingo on June 23, 2014, 07:29:56 PM
That tells you how much common sense they have...
I quite agree. But then we could say that about any group of people anywhere. Twenty years in the USN gave me the chance to observe countries and their inhabitants. The thing I noticed most was that we all start out sounding the same, then society starts trying to make us live down to its expectations.
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on June 24, 2014, 07:52:07 AM
I don't know of anybody else who uses "total war" like that.
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: stromboli on June 24, 2014, 03:40:07 PM
The vast military indusrtrial complex built in WW2 was held over because of the threat of the Soviets. There was a great deal of downsizing prior to Korea, and they had to reverse that to build back up to fight what they envisioned would be a massive war with China and Russia. We have people on here who were stationed in Germany during the Cold War. You can ask them about it. Our whole strategy is built around the idea of a huge unstoppable force, a la WW2, but what we ended up fighting in real life wasn't a mass of Russian tanks and artillery but a bunch of guys in black pajamas-or desert Keffiyah- packing AK-47s. The mindset continues. The B-2 bomber, for all its touted capabilities, is a hugely expensive weapon that sees little real use.

The Russians learned the hard way in Afghanistan. And good ol' boy Ronnie Reagan equipped the Mujahadeen with Stinger missiles to fight that goldurn commie threat, and in so doing ended up empowering the Taliban and Al Queda. Our soldiers are well trained and equipped, but end up fighting ridiculous limited wars they can't win. 

Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: Hakurei Reimu on June 24, 2014, 04:04:01 PM
All of our recent wars were total wars? I didn't realize that I was living in a country whose industry was tooled for a war footing, its resources rationed, and a draft.  :think:

I think you need to go back to your cage, drunkie.
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: Solitary on June 24, 2014, 05:00:09 PM
You can't win a war trying to fight an idealist cause. This is something the Christian should learn: no one, or government, can take away their beliefs. Communism is still here, Christianity is, and all the other religions as well as atheism, and no war or government can ever change that, as 6,000+ years of history has shown to be true. How many have died, and will die trying to prove it isn't true? Solitary
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: Hakurei Reimu on June 24, 2014, 08:50:41 PM
Quote from: drunkenshoe on June 24, 2014, 04:40:41 PM
It's about what the power zone can afford to do and will do. You don't need to fit a fucking set of conditions just because a 150 year old term gives a definition.
I'm not engaging in a semantics debate with you.

"Total war" does not mean what you want it to mean: a war for which the entire country is mobilized for that war, and one in which â€"according to your own definitionâ€" "a war which is unrestricted in terms of the weapons used, the territory or combatants involved, or the objectives pursued, especially one in which the accepted rules of war are disregarded." Every war post-WWII has left nuclear weapons off the table. Every war post-WWII has had a restricted theater of operation, and its objectives more or less limited, especially post-Vietnam. They are not total wars. No amount of your rhetoric will change that.

We're examining why US wars post-WWII seem to be such failwars. I theorized that was because we were fighting those wars in a specific way using specific terms to describe those type of war: "restricted war" and "total war." You're trying to muddy the issue when you jump in with your rhetorical spew of "Every war is a total war." Sorry, but it isn't true. "Total war" has a definition that distinguishes it from other kinds of wars, your argument from semantics notwithstanding.
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: Shiranu on June 24, 2014, 10:54:58 PM
But... but guys... France! LOL Those Frenchies, amirite, always losing wars and running and stuff? Rite? RITE?!?!? LAUGH WITH ME, I'M AMERICAN FRENCH PEOPLE SUCK AT WAR!

For once, I finally find the "Lol french are bad at war!" jokes funny... simply because we are even worse than I thought.
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: Mandingo on June 24, 2014, 11:50:19 PM
Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on June 24, 2014, 04:04:01 PMI didn't realize that I was living in a country whose industry was tooled for a war footing

That's because you have never lived in a country that wasn't. You wouldn't know the difference if it hit you in the face. But the reality is that the US started some 2 or 3 dozen wars, armed conflicts, and invasions since WWII. So the reality is that the US was and is the de facto aggressor in all of those cases. And the reality is that the US racked up a national debt of 14 TRILLION bucks doing it. Outspending itself royally. That, my friend, is a war economy! Which will come back to bite you. Hard! The US is effectively bankrupt. But blissfully doesn't realize it. Yet. As you so painfully demonstrate.
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: Nam on June 24, 2014, 11:53:26 PM
Americans realize it, most of them just don't care.

-Nam
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: Mandingo on June 25, 2014, 12:02:41 AM
Quote from: Nam on June 24, 2014, 11:53:26 PM
Americans realize it, most of them just don't care.

Until, one day, they wake up in a third world country. A third world country without jobs, without housing, without cars, without hospitals, and without schools for their kids. A miserable third world country.
But then it's going to be waaay too late to reverse that.
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: Nam on June 25, 2014, 12:06:01 AM
Quote from: Mandingo on June 25, 2014, 12:02:41 AM
Until, one day, they wake up in a third world country. A third world country without jobs, without housing, without cars, without hospitals, and without schools for their kids.
But then it's going to be waaay too late to reverse that.

Elect idiots, you get an idiotic country.

-Nam
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: EnvireMental on June 25, 2014, 12:23:41 AM
when realizing USA's enemies' weapons are product of USA, you will get who have won the war already...

of course, winner never be american nation. they will be who dictates(with indirect way) the amerikan nation...
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on June 25, 2014, 08:39:59 AM
Quote from: drunkenshoe on June 25, 2014, 04:53:17 AM
But it doesn't fit the military text definitions!
Special definitions, the black holes of forum discussions.
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: Mandingo on June 25, 2014, 01:28:44 PM
Quote from: EnvireMental on June 25, 2014, 12:23:41 AM
when realizing USA's enemies' weapons are product of USA, you will get who have won the war already...

In that case it's the USSR that 'won' all those wars, my friend. Start counting the AK-47s!

Quoteof course, winner never be american nation. they will be who dictates(with indirect way) the amerikan nation...

So the multi-billionaires are the winners.
And the taxpayers are the losers.
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: Jason Harvestdancer on June 25, 2014, 02:38:09 PM
The US cannot win the wars it is in, but that is because of the nature of the wars it is in.  It wages the wars stupidly, and in entirely the wrong way.  William Lind has some great analysis on this with his four generations of modern warfare, starting with the Treaty of Westphalia.

The US could have won a long time ago with the war in Afghanistan or Iraq.  It would have been easy, but to do what is necessary would have destroyed us.  Any of the following would have worked.

1.  Find the general in charge of the war, change his name to "Sherman".  Tell him the locals are Sioux.  Open up settlement to any American that wants to move there.  Give him permission to claim any parcel of land not already claimed by a different American.

2.  Institute a strict militaristic rule in which heavy penalties are meted out for various crimes.  If a US civilian is killed, 3 locals are executed.  If an E1-E3 is killed, 5 locals are executed.  If an E4-E6 is killed, 8 locals are executed.  If an E7-E9 is killed, 12 locals are executed.  If an O1-O3 is killed, 20 locals are executed.  If an O4-O6 is killed, 30 locals are executed.  If an O7 on up is killed, 50 locals are executed.

3.  Kill every male over the age of 15, kill every female over the age of 30.  Offer up all the women from 15 to 30 as wives to any American soldier or settler who wishes to take one and stay. in the

It would destroy what is left of the soul of the US to do any of those, but it would indeed win the war.  Iraq would be completely different, Afghanistan would be completely different, the US would be an evil country, and the rest of the world would hate us.
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: Hakurei Reimu on June 25, 2014, 08:08:48 PM
Quote from: drunkenshoe on June 25, 2014, 04:51:39 AM
You are arguing semantics yourself and operating under the rhetoric of a very well known specific US made American history.

You cannot just include what you want from a definition and leave the rest to categorise something, because you want to see it that way.
Even though I was using your definition of "total war"? Do you get what I'm saying? Even by your own definition of "total war," America's post-WWII wars don't fit.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on June 25, 2014, 04:51:39 AM
That definition does NOT belong to me.  It's not my personal desire to determine its design. Total war is a war which is unrestricted in terms, weaponry meaning which the attack is carried among civilians; to the whole population in an area hospitals, schools...you name it, in an indiscriminated way.
What about weaponry, which is also a part of your "total war" definition â€" like the lack of the afforementioned nukes? What about when those wars never expand beyond the specific country the US was fighting? Remember that US wars during the Cold War were proxy wars; those countries had allies that would be fair targets for a total war doctrine â€" that's a restriction in terms.

As to civilians, troops could hardly be expected to just stand and take it when civilians themselves shoot and throw grenades at them.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on June 25, 2014, 04:51:39 AM
There isn't a need of mobilising the whole country and its resources to pursue a total war described above if the aggressor CAN AFFORD TO maintain that war without doing it.
Well, yes. The same war can be a limited war to one party, yet be total war for the other. "Total war" is a term referring to how a particular country is proscecuting their war effort, which can certainly differ from country to country. It has fuck-all to do with the scale of destruction the war causes, or how horrible it turns out to be. It's irrelevant to the term.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on June 25, 2014, 04:51:39 AM
As the US policy has done,as US and is allies can afford to. This is not a conspiracy theory, it is the reality we live in a 10 year old kid can get. You just don't go around and say; "oh we didn't need to fit the set of conditions of a total war in book terms, so we didn't fight any total wars." Obviously you can say it. It's a fucking politician line. Propaganda. Fucking lie. Reality doesn't change with stomping your foot down and hiding behind a military text definition.
You seem to be saying that if I don't agree that all war is "total war," then that somehow diminishes the suffering of the victims of our recent wars. It does not.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on June 25, 2014, 04:51:39 AM
No, we are examining how do you perceive your country's recent history, what you can or cannot acknowledge about it in an internet forum conversation.
Go fuck yourself. I acknowledge the fact that our post-WWII wars were horrible things that killed many civilians and caused untold suffering and destruction. However, the topic of this thread is why the US can't seem to win it's recent wars. I only brought up total war as a characterization of how the US was proscecuting its wars, not as a diminishing of the suffering of the US's war victims. This is because, callous as this sounds, this discussion is NOT about the suffering of war victims.

So unless you can explain how the US targeting hospitals and schools (when?) damaged its ability to bring those wars to successful conclusions, you are just listening to yourself talk.
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: Mandingo on June 25, 2014, 08:09:24 PM
Quote from: Jason_Harvestdancer on June 25, 2014, 02:38:09 PM
The US cannot win the wars it is in, but that is because of the nature of the wars it is in.  It wages the wars stupidly, and in entirely the wrong way.  William Lind has some great analysis on this with his four generations of modern warfare, starting with the Treaty of Westphalia.

The US could have won a long time ago with the war in Afghanistan or Iraq.  It would have been easy, but to do what is necessary would have destroyed us.  Any of the following would have worked.

1.  Find the general in charge of the war, change his name to "Sherman".  Tell him the locals are Sioux.  Open up settlement to any American that wants to move there.  Give him permission to claim any parcel of land not already claimed by a different American.

FYI: all the land in both the Americas had already been claimed by 'different' Americans millennia ago. So, by your own rules, any other person claiming it in the last 4 centuries was a usurper. A land grabbing robber.
Nothing has changed since.

Quote2.  Institute a strict militaristic rule in which heavy penalties are meted out for various crimes.  If a US civilian is killed, 3 locals are executed.  If an E1-E3 is killed, 5 locals are executed.  If an E4-E6 is killed, 8 locals are executed.  If an E7-E9 is killed, 12 locals are executed.  If an O1-O3 is killed, 20 locals are executed.  If an O4-O6 is killed, 30 locals are executed.  If an O7 on up is killed, 50 locals are executed.

That m.o. has been tried already. Hundreds of times. E.g. in WWII. By those other Nazis.
And in case you missed that too: they lost the war...

Quote3.  Kill every male over the age of 15, kill every female over the age of 30.  Offer up all the women from 15 to 30 as wives to any American soldier or settler who wishes to take one and stay. in the

It would destroy what is left of the soul of the US to do any of those, but it would indeed win the war.  Iraq would be completely different, Afghanistan would be completely different, the US would be an evil country, and the rest of the world would hate us.

They already do, my friend. The rest of the world hates your arrogant, sadistic, gun-slinging, murderous, self-centred, and egotistical guts. With a vengeance. But since Americans are not in touch with reality they keep dreaming that they are the envy of the world.
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: Jason Harvestdancer on June 26, 2014, 01:10:08 AM
Quote from: Mandingo on June 25, 2014, 08:09:24 PMThey already do, my friend. The rest of the world hates your arrogant, sadistic, gun-slinging, murderous, self-centred, and egotistical guts. With a vengeance. But since Americans are not in touch with reality they keep dreaming that they are the envy of the world.

Oh, you think that I'm actually suggesting that the US do all of that.  You think that I'm suggesting that as a good thing.  I suggest you re-read what I wrote, my friend, especially the parts about how doing any of that would destroy anything that is still good about the US.
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: Mandingo on June 26, 2014, 08:05:30 AM
Quote from: drunkenshoe on June 26, 2014, 05:54:11 AM
No, he is suggesting what you describe up there in your post is already the reality, therefore saying or being sarcastsic about how that would destroy anything good about US is pretty ridiculous.

^This!

Only I'm not suggesting. I'm stating (the obvious).
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: Jason Harvestdancer on June 26, 2014, 08:50:44 AM
Well that's just plain idiotic.  The US has fallen quite short of what I wrote.
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: DickRill on June 30, 2014, 03:41:02 PM
Quote from: stromboli on June 24, 2014, 03:40:07 PM
The B-2 bomber, for all its touted capabilities, is a hugely expensive weapon that sees little real use.

Which is just as well, because those 'touted capabilities', notably its stealth capabilities, are a farce IRL. Modern, high-frequency radars cannot detect B2s. But older, low-frequency radars can! That's how they shot down that B2 and F-117 in Kosovo in 1999! Stealth does not work! So all the billions spent on socalled stealthy F-117s, B2s, and F-22s were a humongous waste for US taxpayers. And a humongous profit for the owners, the shareholders of the 'defense' industries.
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: DickRill on June 30, 2014, 03:44:52 PM
Quote from: Shiranu on June 24, 2014, 10:54:58 PM
But... but guys... France! LOL Those Frenchies, amirite, always losing wars and running and stuff? Rite? RITE?!?!?

Wrong!
Forgot how Napoleon won a number of wars/campaigns for 15 years?
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: Hijiri Byakuren on June 30, 2014, 07:17:51 PM
Quote from: DickRill on June 30, 2014, 03:44:52 PM
Wrong!
Forgot how Napoleon won a number of wars/campaigns for 15 years?
Napoleon was born to an Italian family in Corsica. He doesn't count. :P
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: aileron on June 30, 2014, 11:07:50 PM
Quote from: Mandingo on June 21, 2014, 04:23:20 PMFirst the USA outcompeted the USSR with the arms race, so that the USSR went bankrupt.

That's pure Western mythology.  The USSR's economy was lackluster but on sound footing before the revolution. 
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: aileron on June 30, 2014, 11:57:11 PM
Quote from: DickRill on June 30, 2014, 03:41:02 PM
Which is just as well, because those 'touted capabilities', notably its stealth capabilities, are a farce IRL. Modern, high-frequency radars cannot detect B2s. But older, low-frequency radars can! That's how they shot down that B2 and F-117 in Kosovo in 1999! Stealth does not work! So all the billions spent on socalled stealthy F-117s, B2s, and F-22s were a humongous waste for US taxpayers. And a humongous profit for the owners, the shareholders of the 'defense' industries.

No B2 has ever been shot down.  The Serbians were able to detect the F-117 as it opened its bomb bay doors.  The Air Force knows well that the radar signature goes way up at that point, but that happens for only a few seconds.  Normally the radar wouldn't be trained on exactly the right area except for some sloppy NATO communications that the Serbs intercepted let them know where and when to target. 

To claim that low observable technology "doesn't work" is missing the point.  These planes are not invisible like Wonder Woman's.  They're intended to make the planes harder to find, and nobody ever expected anything more than "harder to find."  In the case of air dominance fighters finding your opponent before he finds you is an enormous advantage.  For bombers, the shorter the window of detection the more survivable your mission profile. 
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on July 01, 2014, 07:59:24 AM
Quote from: aileron on June 30, 2014, 11:07:50 PM
That's pure Western mythology.  The USSR's economy was lackluster but on sound footing before the revolution. 
True, possibly, but the USSR did indeed know that it couldn't compete with the US in all areas of arms production and deployment.
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: DickRill on July 01, 2014, 10:05:02 AM
Quote from: aileron on June 30, 2014, 11:07:50 PM
That's pure Western mythology.  The USSR's economy was lackluster but on sound footing before the revolution.

Complete BS! The USSR had been spending over 25% of GNP annually on military budgets for 30 years. Nobody â€" including the US â€" can keep that up. So the USSR had been knee-deep in debt for over a decade already. Gorbachov inherited a totally bankrupt country. Whatever was left of the USSR's economy collapsed in 1989/1990. Russians in the street were dirt-poor and didn't take it any longer. A very violent revolution was about to break out. Enter Yeltsin on his tank, and the rest is history.
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: DickRill on July 01, 2014, 10:11:21 AM
Quote from: aileron on June 30, 2014, 11:57:11 PM
No B2 has ever been shot down.

Except the Spirit of Missouri at a cost of 1,8 billion bucks.
After that it's not surprising that they have been careful not to send any B2s into harm's way anymore.
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: DunkleSeele on July 01, 2014, 10:29:58 AM
Quote from: DickRill on July 01, 2014, 10:11:21 AM
Except the Spirit of Missouri at a cost of 1,8 billion bucks.
After that it's not surprising that they have been careful not to send any B2s into harm's way anymore.
That's just an unconfirmed rumour. If the Serbs really did shoot down the B2, why isn't part of its wreckage exhibited at the Belgrade aviation museum (located on the grounds of the Belgrade airport) just like they do with the F-117 they effectively shot down?
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: Jason Harvestdancer on July 01, 2014, 11:17:36 AM
The stealth technology does have issues.  First of all assume it does make the plane invisible to radar - that means you can't see it unless you are actually just plain looking at it.  Second, making it invisible to radar doesn't work as well as some would think, because one of the things it does is create a dark spot that contrasts with the normal background radiation.  The radar cannot see it, but if you invert the image a human can say "aha, there is stealth technology there."  Third, it only works at certain frequencies anyway.
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: aileron on July 01, 2014, 11:49:51 AM
Quote from: DickRill on July 01, 2014, 10:05:02 AMComplete BS! The USSR had been spending over 25% of GNP annually on military budgets for 30 years.

I like it how you call complete BS and then get everything wrong in your reply.  Soviet defense spending was 11% of GDP when measured in US dollars and 8% when measured in rubles (source declassified CIA revised estimates published in 2007).

QuoteNobody â€" including the US â€" can keep that up. So the USSR had been knee-deep in debt for over a decade already.

Soviet budget deficits were stable at 2% of GDP.  That's a very manageable deficit to GDP ratio.  The US is currently at 3% for example.

QuoteGorbachov inherited a totally bankrupt country.

LOL... The Soviet Union was at the height of its power when Gorby took over.  Their pre-revolution debt load was about 50% of their GDP.  Ours is now about 100%.  The Soviet GDP was at a record high.  Real incomes were rising.  The economy was growing at a paltry 1-2% a year, but it was growing.  The debt was lower as a percentage of GDP than most Western nations today.

QuoteWhatever was left of the USSR's economy collapsed in 1989/1990. Russians in the street were dirt-poor and didn't take it any longer. A very violent revolution was about to break out. Enter Yeltsin on his tank, and the rest is history.

It seems you like the Reganaut mythology, but that's not what happened.  What happened was this:  Gorby and his cohorts refused to apply the glue that had held together the Soviet empire since the days of Lenin.  The Soviet empire was held together by brute force, intimidation, and a police state.  Gorby and his cohorts wanted a more moral Soviet Union and were stunned how quickly the rotten mess collapsed when they refused to use force and intimidation and relaxed the police state.  Once the political collapse happened the economy was wrecked because it depended on structures that simply no longer existed. 
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: CloneKai on July 01, 2014, 12:25:50 PM
So, rules of engagement are not taken into consideration in a "total war". Meaning illegal weapons or methods are used like child soldiers, mines or cluster bombs. So why were these rules made, if no one was expected to follow them?
so example of this could be something like Israel using phosphorous bombs in operation castlead and america using some kind of gas in Vietnam, which caused some serious health problems.
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: aileron on July 01, 2014, 01:54:41 PM
No, a total war means that the belligerents execute full mobilization and attack all war-making resources even so-called dual use resources such as factories and cities.  Neither the Arab-Israeli conflicts nor the American involvement in the Vietnam War were total wars.
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: CloneKai on July 01, 2014, 02:03:25 PM
but it was for the Arabs or Vietnam, no?

so what about nuclear weapons, can they be used in "total war"?
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: aileron on July 01, 2014, 02:14:44 PM
Quote from: CloneKai on July 01, 2014, 02:03:25 PMbut it was for the Arabs or Vietnam, no?

The Arab-Israeli wars were not total for either side.  You could make a case that for the Vietnamese it was a total war because both the North and South did fully mobilize.

Quoteso what about nuclear weapons, can they be used in "total war"?

A total war is about the level of mobilization not the weapons used.   
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: aileron on July 01, 2014, 02:38:09 PM
Quote from: drunkenshoe on July 01, 2014, 02:30:13 PM
No, it is not.

You keep repeating that or stomping your foot, whining all over doesn't make any difference. You are exactly like a fucking religious freak proselytizing your head off with the same cock sucking 'total bullshit', your head buried in sand.

But then that's understandable. There is nothing else, is there?

I'm not sure what you're claiming here.  I was discussing terminology not morality.
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: aileron on July 01, 2014, 02:47:11 PM
Quote from: drunkenshoe on July 01, 2014, 02:45:36 PM
yeah, we did that before you arrived to the thread.

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/total-war


So what point were you trying to make with the cock sucking remark?  Very enlightened, BTW, because all homosexual activity is an insult, right?
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: aileron on July 01, 2014, 02:55:15 PM
Quote from: drunkenshoe on July 01, 2014, 02:51:13 PM
Is that your way of deflection that? And you aimed that to me?  :rotflmao: You are a real tourist here, right?

Cock sucking remark is for you, and your usual defence of US policy.

You have problems understanding the difference between verification of facts and defending US policy.  I do find your use of cock sucking as an insult rather interesting because that particular insult has largely died out where I live.  It doesn't bother me in the least, but the fact that you consider it an insult is interesting.
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on July 01, 2014, 02:59:13 PM
Quote from: aileron on July 01, 2014, 01:54:41 PM
No, a total war means that the belligerents execute full mobilization and attack all war-making resources even so-called dual use resources such as factories and cities.  Neither the Arab-Israeli conflicts nor the American involvement in the Vietnam War were total wars.

QuoteSie wollen den totalen Krieg? Ich gebe ihr den totalen Krieg!
Joseph Goebbels, 18 February, 1943 (http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/goeb36.htm)
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: CloneKai on July 01, 2014, 03:22:27 PM
i am feeling left out!

and confused too
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: frosty on July 01, 2014, 03:43:54 PM
Quote from: CloneKai on July 01, 2014, 03:22:27 PM
i am feeling left out!

and confused too

Yeah, same here.
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: AllPurposeAtheist on July 01, 2014, 03:50:20 PM
It seems to me you're arguing over which smells worse, the shit from a cow or the shit from a bull. The reality is all these wars the US sticks its nose in, instigates, prosecutes and so on are still bullshit and do utterly nothing to further any cause for humanity unless the cause is death, destruction and misery for everyone else.
Who gives a fuck what the definition of 'total war' is when 1% of our population is even involved and 100% of the nation we invade is effected?
Maybe you have a cushy job making widget #869427540B that goes on part X75974994386 and check for the slight imperfections in the paint job so bomb J563988521 flies straight. Big fucking deal, huh? USA USA USA then it's exported to the regime that treats everyone not praying to the right god like shit, but so what? It doesn't effect your cushy ass. Your job is to inspect the paint and never ask why you work in the bomb factory.
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: CloneKai on July 01, 2014, 04:07:36 PM
Quote from: AllPurposeAtheist on July 01, 2014, 03:50:20 PM
It seems to me you're arguing over which smells worse, the shit from a cow or the shit from a bull. The reality is all these wars the US sticks its nose in, instigates, prosecutes and so on are still bullshit and do utterly nothing to further any cause for humanity unless the cause is death, destruction and misery for everyone else.
Who gives a fuck what the definition of 'total war' is when 1% of our population is even involved and 100% of the nation we invade is effected?
Maybe you have a cushy job making widget #869427540B that goes on part X75974994386 and check for the slight imperfections in the paint job so bomb J563988521 flies straight. Big fucking deal, huh? USA USA USA then it's exported to the regime that treats everyone not praying to the right god like shit, but so what? It doesn't effect your cushy ass. Your job is to inspect the paint and never ask why you work in the bomb factory.
Easy for you to say. you might not need to run towards American soldier yelling "I surrender! I surrender!". But i need to know, what to expect from them.
So which smell is worse cow's shit or bull's shit
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: frosty on July 01, 2014, 04:08:58 PM
Also, I would have morally opposed Jason's idea of genociding a population that the U.S. is occupying. Not everybody wants to live under the boot of Uncle Sam and the Bible (not saying you support that Jason, just saying), and the very fact that these conversations exist today is somewhat proof that many people know what's going on now.

It's not like anywhere from the 1930s-1960s where America was portrayed as a military saint, upholding righteous values and spreading peace and freedom to the whole world. Those days simply do NOT exist anymore, and almost nobody believes that propaganda anymore.
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on July 01, 2014, 04:09:10 PM
Quote from: AllPurposeAtheist on July 01, 2014, 03:50:20 PM
It seems to me you're arguing over which smells worse, the shit from a cow or the shit from a bull. The reality is all these wars the US sticks its nose in, instigates, prosecutes and so on are still bullshit and do utterly nothing to further any cause for humanity unless the cause is death, destruction and misery for everyone else.
Who gives a fuck what the definition of 'total war' is when 1% of our population is even involved and 100% of the nation we invade is effected?
Maybe you have a cushy job making widget #869427540B that goes on part X75974994386 and check for the slight imperfections in the paint job so bomb J563988521 flies straight. Big fucking deal, huh? USA USA USA then it's exported to the regime that treats everyone not praying to the right god like shit, but so what? It doesn't effect your cushy ass. Your job is to inspect the paint and never ask why you work in the bomb factory.
I used to kill people for $247/month.
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: frosty on July 01, 2014, 04:16:36 PM
Quote from: drunkenshoe on July 01, 2014, 04:13:25 PM
This is like watching a black and white American movie.

Need to fast forward faster.

Well, I used that specific word because not everything is as it's made out to be, and you know that.
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: aileron on July 01, 2014, 04:22:58 PM
Quote from: drunkenshoe on July 01, 2014, 04:04:44 PMIt's pretty important what 'total war' is when there has been a war policy worked over it with everything in a war economy.

If that's what you believe about the US that's fine, but total war is not the right term.  The term to which you're referring is militarism.  I'm still not at all clear why you get so mad about terminology especially given that English is (I assume) a second language.

I do agree that the US is a militaristic nation, and it's something that a lot of us don't like and work to change.
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: AllPurposeAtheist on July 01, 2014, 04:30:30 PM
You know all this bullshit is about protecting the profits of the economic elite in the US. In other words, if a country wants to develop industry to benefit itself and nationalize any US corporation they can expect that friendly visit from the CIA and a bullet to the head.  That's what all this US backed war bullshit is about.
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on July 01, 2014, 04:33:45 PM
Quote from: AllPurposeAtheist on July 01, 2014, 04:30:30 PM
You know all this bullshit is about protecting the profits of the economic elite in the US. In other words, if a country wants to develop industry to benefit itself and nationalize any US corporation they can expect that friendly visit from the CIA and a bullet to the head.  That's what all this US backed war bullshit is about.
Yep, China, Japan, Germany, Korea, the list is endless. It's just not your list.
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: AllPurposeAtheist on July 01, 2014, 04:39:03 PM
If they're members of the NYSE we'll go to war to protect their interests if the trading price is high enough.
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: Hakurei Reimu on July 01, 2014, 04:40:25 PM
Quote from: Jason_Harvestdancer on July 01, 2014, 11:17:36 AM
The stealth technology does have issues.  First of all assume it does make the plane invisible to radar - that means you can't see it unless you are actually just plain looking at it.  Second, making it invisible to radar doesn't work as well as some would think, because one of the things it does is create a dark spot that contrasts with the normal background radiation.  The radar cannot see it, but if you invert the image a human can say "aha, there is stealth technology there."  Third, it only works at certain frequencies anyway.
Natural background radiation of radar? What the what?
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on July 01, 2014, 04:44:59 PM
Quote from: AllPurposeAtheist on July 01, 2014, 04:39:03 PM
If they're members of the NYSE we'll go to war to protect their interests if the trading price is high enough.
Quote from: AllPurposeAtheist on July 01, 2014, 04:39:03 PM
If they're members of the NYSE we'll go to war to protect their interests if the trading price is high enough.
I hear you can get bowls that turn from blue to yellow when somebody pisses in your Post Toasties.
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: AllPurposeAtheist on July 01, 2014, 04:47:12 PM
Who gives a rats ass about 'stealth technology'? It's irrelevant to the reasons behind these immoral wars of empire.
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on July 01, 2014, 05:16:35 PM
Quote from: AllPurposeAtheist on July 01, 2014, 04:47:12 PM
Who gives a rats ass about 'stealth technology'? It's irrelevant to the reasons behind these immoral wars of empire.
Have you considered chastising them thoroughly?
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: frosty on July 01, 2014, 05:16:55 PM
Quote from: drunkenshoe on July 01, 2014, 04:45:51 PM
Then try to act like it. But then you informed me on behalf of people where you live that nobody cares about it, so why bother...

I'm not even sure why you mentioned that. That's almost a given. I do feel like telling these "we can change things" people that they really can't, but I'm almost certain none of them will listen one iota. To change things of this magnitude you need an informed, active populace willing to get out of their comfort zones and that simply does not exist at this point in time.
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: aileron on July 01, 2014, 05:22:10 PM
Quote from: drunkenshoe on July 01, 2014, 04:45:51 PM
It was the very right term, before I was posted. You were talking about how what it wasn't it at all.

You're still using the term total war wrong.  Militarism and total war are distinctly different things.
 
QuoteMeaning, me using English as second language doesn't prevent me understanding the difference between a manipulated definition or a real definition of total war -or any other term- that you and other first language speakers argue from. Do you need any further explanation in English or do you need to learn another language enough to carry on this conversation to get that?

Simply put, you're wrong.  It's as if I were to go to France and lecture people on their use of language.  The term you want is militarism, plain and simple.  Total war has a different meaning that has been around since the days when America had a tiny standing military.


QuoteThen try to act like it. But then you informed me on behalf of people where you live that nobody cares about it, so why bother...

Your arrogance is funny.  Maybe I should go to France and argue with them that I understand their use of language better than they do. 
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: DickRill on July 01, 2014, 07:04:35 PM
Can we perhaps agree on this definition?

Total war is a large scale armed conflict in which one or both/all side(s) violate(s) the worldwide agreed rules of the Geneva Convention(s) (1864, 1906, 1929, and 1949): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Conventions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Conventions)
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: DickRill on July 02, 2014, 06:18:58 AM
Quote from: drunkenshoe on July 02, 2014, 06:07:06 AM
Your arrogance is funny. Go learn English! /sarc.

Your English is funny. Go learn arrogance!
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on July 02, 2014, 11:31:38 AM
"Gentlemen! You can't fight in here, this is the War Room!"
Title: Re: America at War: A Record of Unparalleled Failure
Post by: AllPurposeAtheist on July 02, 2014, 01:52:19 PM
Sorry Shoe. You've been declared a gentleman. Don't blame me. I'm just the messenger.