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Humanities Section => Philosophy & Rhetoric General Discussion => Topic started by: mediumaevum on June 07, 2014, 11:56:20 AM

Title: What is existence?
Post by: mediumaevum on June 07, 2014, 11:56:20 AM
I've googled Existence, and found this article on Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existence#Existence_in_the_wide_and_narrow_senses

However, it did not answer my question.

Some star some far away from our galaxy that does not influence our lives at all, or at any point, and which we might not know wether to exist or not, does it exist anyway?
Of course it does. Even though it does not affects us in any way what so ever, the star exists regardless of wether we believe in its existence or not. Einstein expressed it as:
"The moon exists no matter if I look at it or not" (now, this is a poor example, because the moon does affect our life, ie, Tides, causing the sealevel to rise and fall.

However, even if the moon did not affect anything on the planet Earth, I'd still say it exists.

Something does not have to exist in relation to something else, in order to exist, which is what many people tend to believe in these days of "relativity-thinking".

There IS an absolute Truth, we don't know what it is, but it is still there.
Title: Re: What is existence?
Post by: SGOS on June 07, 2014, 12:05:35 PM
Where's Casperov when you need him?
Title: Re: What is existence?
Post by: stromboli on June 07, 2014, 03:05:26 PM
Quote from: SGOS on June 07, 2014, 12:05:35 PM
Where's Casperov when you need him?

Casparov and Mediumaevum in a one on one. Truly a battle for the ages.
Title: Re: What is existence?
Post by: KUSA on June 07, 2014, 06:07:33 PM
What exactly do you want to know about existence?
Title: Re: What is existence?
Post by: stromboli on June 07, 2014, 06:38:19 PM
Quote from: KUSA on June 07, 2014, 06:07:33 PM
What exactly do you want to know about existence?

If it exists?
Title: Re: What is existence?
Post by: aitm on June 08, 2014, 12:05:25 PM
Humanity has had at least two great moments of arrogance, the first being that a "god" created the universe just for them, the second that they and they alone define what is and what is not.
Title: Re: What is existence?
Post by: DunkleSeele on June 08, 2014, 04:18:03 PM
Aaaaand... here comes mediumaevum with another one of his bullshit threads.

Quote from: mediumaevum on June 07, 2014, 11:56:20 AM
I've googled Existence, and found this article on Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existence#Existence_in_the_wide_and_narrow_senses

However, it did not answer my question.

Some star some far away from our galaxy that does not influence our lives at all, or at any point, and which we might not know wether to exist or not, does it exist anyway?
Of course it does. Even though it does not affects us in any way what so ever, the star exists regardless of wether we believe in its existence or not. Einstein expressed it as:
"The moon exists no matter if I look at it or not" (now, this is a poor example, because the moon does affect our life, ie, Tides, causing the sealevel to rise and fall.

However, even if the moon did not affect anything on the planet Earth, I'd still say it exists.
OK, until here we are more or less factual.

QuoteSomething does not have to exist in relation to something else, in order to exist, which is what many people tend to believe in these days of "relativity-thinking".
Relativity thinking? What the hell would that be?
QuoteThere IS an absolute Truth, we don't know what it is, but it is still there.

Aaahhhh I see... IF something exists it does independently of our experience, therefore GAWD!

Listen, dimwit: if a star exists it exists, still if we don't know anything about it we can't make any statement about its existence. No, scratch that, let me put it in simpler words, so maybe your single brain cell will grasp it: there is no evidence of a gawd, period. No amount of mental masturbation on your side will change this simple fact.

Now go back to your mom's basement.
Title: Re: What is existence?
Post by: Ferrin on June 08, 2014, 04:46:59 PM
Quote from: mediumaevum on June 07, 2014, 11:56:20 AM
I've googled Existence, and found this article on Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existence#Existence_in_the_wide_and_narrow_senses

However, it did not answer my question.

Some star some far away from our galaxy that does not influence our lives at all, or at any point, and which we might not know wether to exist or not, does it exist anyway?
Of course it does. Even though it does not affects us in any way what so ever, the star exists regardless of wether we believe in its existence or not. Einstein expressed it as:
"The moon exists no matter if I look at it or not" (now, this is a poor example, because the moon does affect our life, ie, Tides, causing the sealevel to rise and fall.

However, even if the moon did not affect anything on the planet Earth, I'd still say it exists.

Something does not have to exist in relation to something else, in order to exist, which is what many people tend to believe in these days of "relativity-thinking".

There IS an absolute Truth, we don't know what it is, but it is still there.

The existence of something is only relevant if it affects us. If we are never able to know about its existence in any way shape or form, or even the effect it has on us, then why bother? It's a hypothetical existence without bearing on our reality.

We observe the universe around us and are slowly putting the puzzle together. We do not know whether we will ever complete this puzzle, or are only able to see one side of a 3d puzzle. They are not things we can know (perhaps yet), and the existence or lack there-of of these is irrelevant with our current knowledge.

Sure, the star might exist, in fact, it's plausible it could exist because we see them all over the observable universe. But it's still irrelevant aside from a possible prediction based on our current understanding, which may well be wrong.

Did I get any of this wrong? Be gentle. ;)
Title: Re: What is existence?
Post by: the_antithesis on June 08, 2014, 05:51:36 PM
Quote from: mediumaevum on June 07, 2014, 11:56:20 AM
There IS an absolute Truth, we don't know what it is, but it is still there.


The theist position is: We don't know or We cannot possibly know, therefore, I do know.
Title: Re: What is existence?
Post by: mediumaevum on June 09, 2014, 12:48:16 PM
Quote from: DunkleSeele on June 08, 2014, 04:18:03 PM
Aaaaand... here comes mediumaevum with another one of his bullshit threads.
OK, until here we are more or less factual.
Relativity thinking? What the hell would that be?Aaahhhh I see... IF something exists it does independently of our experience, therefore GAWD!

Listen, dimwit: if a star exists it exists, still if we don't know anything about it we can't make any statement about its existence. No, scratch that, let me put it in simpler words, so maybe your single brain cell will grasp it: there is no evidence of a gawd, period. No amount of mental masturbation on your side will change this simple fact.

Now go back to your mom's basement.

Excuse me, but when did I write about any "God" in my Original Post?

I was, in-fact, refering to politics (I didn't make it clear before now, because I first wanted to settle that there is an ultimate truth).

Such as: Which agricultural policies are the best, which health policies are best, which social policies are best, etc.

We don't really need to discuss those things once we figure them out. What I wanted to say is that if we find "the truth", we will know what policies to adapt in our society.

I wasn't talking about God. Unless, of course, we are talking religious policies, ie. Islamists or Christian nuts, versus Secular, Secular is the way to go, we know that for sure.
Even believers in deities must acknowledge that secularism is THE way of politics.

Title: Re: What is existence?
Post by: mediumaevum on June 09, 2014, 12:56:44 PM
Why are you people so cruel towards me? You assume I am a christian nut or something and you don't talk nice to me. Everything I write, no matter if I agree with you or not, I
am in the position of ridicule. Even if I wrote the same shit as you wanted to write yourself, before you could write it yourself, you would make it into a ridicule of me!

I am 100 % certain that if I were to write this OP in another username, you would not write the shit you wrote, DunkleSeele.

YOU are the one talking bullshit!
Title: Re: What is existence?
Post by: PickelledEggs on June 09, 2014, 12:58:35 PM
Quote from: mediumaevum on June 09, 2014, 12:56:44 PM
Why are you people so cruel towards me? You assume I am a christian nut or something and you don't talk nice to me. Everything I write, no matter if I agree with you or not, I
am in the position of ridicule. Even if I wrote the same shit as you wanted to write yourself, before you could write it yourself, you would make it into a ridicule of me!
I actually didn't even realize you were still here. Good to see you again
Title: Re: What is existence?
Post by: the_antithesis on June 09, 2014, 01:10:59 PM
Quote from: mediumaevum on June 09, 2014, 12:56:44 PM
Why are you people so cruel towards me?

Because we hate you.
Title: Re: What is existence?
Post by: Ferrin on June 09, 2014, 01:33:39 PM
Quote from: mediumaevum on June 09, 2014, 12:56:44 PM
Why are you people so cruel towards me? You assume I am a christian nut or something and you don't talk nice to me. Everything I write, no matter if I agree with you or not, I
am in the position of ridicule. Even if I wrote the same shit as you wanted to write yourself, before you could write it yourself, you would make it into a ridicule of me!

I am 100 % certain that if I were to write this OP in another username, you would not write the shit you wrote, DunkleSeele.

YOU are the one talking bullshit!

I don't know you, nor was I cruel to you, at the very least you could reply to me in earnest instead of reacting like you are to the others in the thread. Although it appears to me the people around here have tried to explain things like this multiple times to you and likely gotten tired of it.
Title: Re: What is existence?
Post by: mediumaevum on June 09, 2014, 02:35:26 PM
Quote from: Ferrin on June 09, 2014, 01:33:39 PM
I don't know you, nor was I cruel to you, at the very least you could reply to me in earnest instead of reacting like you are to the others in the thread. Although it appears to me the people around here have tried to explain things like this multiple times to you and likely gotten tired of it.

I was refering to DunkleSeele's post.

Your post was the only serious response. I'd like to thank you :)
Title: Re: What is existence?
Post by: Ferrin on June 09, 2014, 05:05:49 PM
Quote from: mediumaevum on June 09, 2014, 02:35:26 PM
I was refering to DunkleSeele's post.

Your post was the only serious response. I'd like to thank you :)

I'd appreciate a reply to it though.
Title: Re: What is existence?
Post by: DunkleSeele on June 09, 2014, 06:00:12 PM
Quote from: mediumaevum on June 09, 2014, 12:56:44 PM
Why are you people so cruel towards me? You assume I am a christian nut or something and you don't talk nice to me. Everything I write, no matter if I agree with you or not, I
am in the position of ridicule. Even if I wrote the same shit as you wanted to write yourself, before you could write it yourself, you would make it into a ridicule of me!

I am 100 % certain that if I were to write this OP in another username, you would not write the shit you wrote, DunkleSeele.

YOU are the one talking bullshit!
Oh yeah, I'm such a meanie...*yawn*
First of all, I guarantee you that I would have answered exactly the same way if that bullshit was posted under another name. Bullshit is bullshit, regardless of the poster. If you don't believe me, go look at my post history.
Second: while we're on the topic of post history, maybe you wouldn't get such answers if you didn't have yourself a long history of bullshit threads. You know, people tend to get tired when they see so much nonsense coming from a poster.
Third: grow a thicker skin. In a forum there's every kind of people, including "cruel" ones (whatever it means). If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.
Title: Re: What is existence?
Post by: Shol'va on June 09, 2014, 09:14:25 PM
Quote from: mediumaevum on June 07, 2014, 11:56:20 AM
There IS an absolute Truth, we don't know what it is, but it is still there.
Alright, I'll bite. What do you mean by absolute truth and how do you know it exists?
Title: Re: What is existence?
Post by: Moralnihilist on June 09, 2014, 10:07:51 PM
Quote from: mediumaevum on June 07, 2014, 11:56:20 AMThere IS an absolute Truth, we don't know what it is, but it is still there.

Prove it.
Title: Re: What is existence?
Post by: PickelledEggs on June 09, 2014, 10:17:31 PM
Quote from: mediumaevum on June 07, 2014, 11:56:20 AM

There IS an absolute Truth, we don't know what it is, but it is still there.

Only the sith deals in absolutes
Title: Re: What is existence?
Post by: mediumaevum on June 10, 2014, 01:58:19 AM
Quote from: Ferrin on June 08, 2014, 04:46:59 PM
The existence of something is only relevant if it affects us. If we are never able to know about its existence in any way shape or form, or even the effect it has on us, then why bother? It's a hypothetical existence without bearing on our reality.

We observe the universe around us and are slowly putting the puzzle together. We do not know whether we will ever complete this puzzle, or are only able to see one side of a 3d puzzle. They are not things we can know (perhaps yet), and the existence or lack there-of of these is irrelevant with our current knowledge.

Sure, the star might exist, in fact, it's plausible it could exist because we see them all over the observable universe. But it's still irrelevant aside from a possible prediction based on our current understanding, which may well be wrong.

Did I get any of this wrong? Be gentle. ;)


I can't say much to this, other than I agree with you.



Quote from: DunkleSeele on June 09, 2014, 06:00:12 PM
Oh yeah, I'm such a meanie...*yawn*
First of all, I guarantee you that I would have answered exactly the same way if that bullshit was posted under another name. Bullshit is bullshit, regardless of the poster. If you don't believe me, go look at my post history.
Second: while we're on the topic of post history, maybe you wouldn't get such answers if you didn't have yourself a long history of bullshit threads. You know, people tend to get tired when they see so much nonsense coming from a poster.
Third: grow a thicker skin. In a forum there's every kind of people, including "cruel" ones (whatever it means). If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.

You could at least try and talk polite. I am not asking for getting addressed as a king, I just want the same kind of respect that people normally would recieve,
regardless of their history.

If you disagree with me, fine, I can accept that, and that's why I posted it in the first place, in hope of constructive criticism. So far, your post was not
constructive criticism, it was personal attacks, calling me a "dimwhit" with a "single brain cell".

I don't believe it is too much to ask for a less rude reply.


Quote from: Shol'va on June 09, 2014, 09:14:25 PM
Alright, I'll bite. What do you mean by absolute truth and how do you know it exists?

By Absolute Truth, I am refering to the laws of nature, which I believe applies to everything that is ultimately ruled by the laws of nature.
Such as politics or many other things in life. Life is a product of nature, so everything in life (including politics) must obey the laws of nature, which has
an Absolute Truth (gravity, reacting forces, you name them).

I then go out and conclude that, if Nature has an Absolute Truth, so should everything derived from nature have it too.
That includes politics. Or religion. Or when to change your socks.

Problem is, we don't know what this truth is. We can guess, but I don't think we will ever be able to know it.

I was not refering to a diety at all. I wasn't refering to anything supernatural.

In short: If we can calculate how to fire a rocket to the moon, why shouldn't we be able to calculate which policies to adapt in our society?
Title: Re: What is existence?
Post by: DunkleSeele on June 10, 2014, 03:05:04 AM
Quote from: mediumaevum on June 10, 2014, 01:58:19 AM

You could at least try and talk polite. I am not asking for getting addressed as a king, I just want the same kind of respect that people normally would recieve,
regardless of their history.

If you disagree with me, fine, I can accept that, and that's why I posted it in the first place, in hope of constructive criticism. So far, your post was not
constructive criticism, it was personal attacks, calling me a "dimwhit" with a "single brain cell".

I don't believe it is too much to ask for a less rude reply.
Respect must be earned. Live with it.

QuoteBy Absolute Truth, I am refering to the laws of nature, which I believe applies to everything that is ultimately ruled by the laws of nature.
Such as politics or many other things in life. Life is a product of nature, so everything in life (including politics) must obey the laws of nature, which has
an Absolute Truth (gravity, reacting forces, you name them).
Yeah, so now politics should be decided by gravity. And you wonder why I consider you a dimwit?
QuoteI then go out and conclude that, if Nature has an Absolute Truth, so should everything derived from nature have it too.
That includes politics. Or religion. Or when to change your socks.
Nature has laws. We know these laws. What's this bullshit about "Absolute Truth"?
QuoteProblem is, we don't know what this truth is. We can guess, but I don't think we will ever be able to know it.

I was not refering to a diety at all. I wasn't refering to anything supernatural.
Complete, utter bullshit. You're ascribing a supernatural aspect to nature. All your yadda yadda about an "unknowable absolute truth" sounds exactly like "Gawd's ways are misterious". That is, utter and complete bullshit.
QuoteIn short: If we can calculate how to fire a rocket to the moon, why shouldn't we be able to calculate which policies to adapt in our society?

Because, in case you didn't notice it yet, societies change in time and place regardless of the fact that nature's laws are always the same. Good luck trying to "calculate" policies for ever-changing societies based on natural laws. Not to mention the fact that nature and the universe don't give a shit about us.

Oh, sorry, where are my manners? Dimwit.
Title: Re: What is existence?
Post by: mediumaevum on June 10, 2014, 04:26:32 AM
DunkelSeele - All I said was that as with gravity, you can calculate how to get to the moon, so can you do the same with policies.

Welfare is one example. By using the science of what is healthy, we can determine how our National Welfare Policy should be.

This applies to many other fields in our society. Agricultural policy for example, should be determined of what is good for agricultural growth.

How is this stupid?
Title: Re: What is existence?
Post by: mediumaevum on June 10, 2014, 04:49:21 AM
It occours to me that we are talking a different language. To you, the term "Absolute Truth" has a religious or mysterious connotation.
To me, it is merely another way of saying: "We know that there is something we don't know". As in: "We know there is something in the box, but we don't know what it is".

Of course I do NOT say that politics should be determined by gravity. I said that AS WITH gravity, determining how to fire a rocket to the moon, so should
matters of society be discussed through science.

See the above post for examples of Welfare and Agricultural politics determined by science, not "what I think".


Title: Re: What is existence?
Post by: Sal1981 on June 10, 2014, 05:22:52 AM
There are loads of stuff we can't prove to exist, but which are plausible, like the far side of the Moon containing craters. Before any spacecraft had surveyed the far side of the Moon, we used prior knowledge to make a prediction on how it might look like, from the front side of the Moon.

Really, I only see this as an attempt to use the old adage of design/existence inference or Brain-in-a-Vat hypothesis for example. Until such time anyone can demonstrate something to be true, given prior knowledge or not, the default position is that it is unknown and no position is taken. Why is this so hard to grasp?
Title: Re: What is existence?
Post by: DunkleSeele on June 10, 2014, 05:24:39 AM
Quote from: mediumaevum on June 10, 2014, 04:26:32 AM
DunkelSeele - All I said was that as with gravity, you can calculate how to get to the moon, so can you do the same with policies.
Oh, really? I guess the point about ever-changing societies just flew over your head. No surprise here.
QuoteWelfare is one example. By using the science of what is healthy, we can determine how our National Welfare Policy should be.

This applies to many other fields in our society. Agricultural policy for example, should be determined of what is good for agricultural growth.
Moving the goalposts much? First you talk about an "unknowable absolute truth", then about science. Will you ever fucking be able to make up your mind?
QuoteHow is this stupid?

It is stupid because you clearly don't know what you're talking about, mixing up science and supernatural.

Quote from: mediumaevum on June 10, 2014, 04:49:21 AM
It occours to me that we are talking a different language.
If by "talking a different language" you mean "mediumaevum posting meaningless word salad" then we agree.
QuoteTo you, the term "Absolute Truth" has a religious or mysterious connotation.
To me, it is merely another way of saying: "We know that there is something we don't know". As in: "We know there is something in the box, but we don't know what it is".
In other words, you don't know but then pretend to know slapping a fucking label on it. This is EXACTLY the same line of reasoning of theists saying "I don't know, therefore gawd". And what if in the box there's a big grogan instead of your not-yet-defined "Absolute Truth"?
QuoteOf course I do NOT say that politics should be determined by gravity. I said that AS WITH gravity, determining how to fire a rocket to the moon, so should
matters of society be discussed through science.
And how does your ridiculous concept of "unknown Absolute Truth" fit with that? How can you base policies on something you think is unknown, dimwit?
QuoteSee the above post for examples of Welfare and Agricultural politics determined by science, not "what I think".
See my comment above. You're just moving the goalposts. Typical of religious dimwits.
Title: Re: What is existence?
Post by: mediumaevum on June 10, 2014, 05:49:54 AM
QuoteIn other words, you don't know but then pretend to know slapping a fucking label on it. This is EXACTLY the same line of reasoning of theists saying "I don't know, therefore gawd". And what if in the box there's a big grogan instead of your not-yet-defined "Absolute Truth"?

Then the Absolute Truth, in regards to the content of the box, is this grogan. Whatever that is/means.

The Absolute Truth is the sum of the matter in the entire universe. Is this really so hard to grasp for you?

I am not moving goalposts. YOU just don't want to understand anything, and have your biased suppositions about me.

Title: Re: What is existence?
Post by: Jason78 on June 10, 2014, 06:36:20 AM
Quote from: mediumaevum on June 10, 2014, 05:49:54 AM
The Absolute Truth is the sum of the matter in the entire universe. Is this really so hard to grasp for you?

"Truth is that which is an accurate description of reality." would be a better way of putting it.

We already have a word for the sum total of all that exists.   We call that the universe.
Title: Re: What is existence?
Post by: DunkleSeele on June 10, 2014, 07:44:59 AM
Quote from: mediumaevum on June 10, 2014, 05:49:54 AM
Then the Absolute Truth, in regards to the content of the box, is this grogan. Whatever that is/means.
Look "grogan" in the dictionary. No, scratch that, look at any of your posts. They are the exact definition of "grogan".

QuoteThe Absolute Truth is the sum of the matter in the entire universe.
So you're redefining the universe? As I said: word salad.
QuoteIs this really so hard to grasp for you?
You're starting from the wrong assumption that there's something to grasp in your word salad.

QuoteI am not moving goalposts.
Oh, really? No, really? First you talk about an "unknowable Absolute truth", then you redefine it as science (showing no understanding of science whatsoever), than you redefine it as the universe, although resorting to another dose of word salad. This is called EXACTLY moving the goalposts.
QuoteYOU just don't want to understand anything, and have your biased suppositions about me.
Biased suppositions? No, my conclusions about you are based on every single one of your grogans... sorry, I meant posts.

Title: Re: What is existence?
Post by: AllPurposeAtheist on June 10, 2014, 08:08:04 AM
None of you exist outside of mediums mind for you're just some new word drug making him hallucinate. Don't you see?

Of course you don't. You would have to exist to see it.


We're not real. Medium just dreamed us up.
Title: Re: What is existence?
Post by: Ferrin on June 10, 2014, 08:50:48 AM
Quote from: mediumaevum on June 10, 2014, 05:49:54 AM
Then the Absolute Truth, in regards to the content of the box, is this grogan. Whatever that is/means.

The Absolute Truth is the sum of the matter in the entire universe. Is this really so hard to grasp for you?

I am not moving goalposts. YOU just don't want to understand anything, and have your biased suppositions about me.

Depending on how you define matter this may not apply:
We need to build up from our current knowledge to fill in the pieces of the puzzle, what you do by defining your "Absolute Truth" is imagining where the borders of the puzzle are before we even get there. The assumption you make about the universe is based on our current knowledge, and regards future knowledge. It's assuming we know enough about the universe now and giving a truth-statement about it.

If matter is "anything that matters":
It's possible that there exist things outside of our means to observe them, perhaps we will never observe these things and they're all around us, in a state that doesn't interact with us and anything we may ever observe. Are those things part of your "Absolute Truth"? Because if they're not, which I'm fairly certain of as you define "Absolute Truth" with matter(Which is also vague, please define), then saying "Absolute Truth" is no different from "the universe". If it does include things beyond our existence, read my earlier post about things like that.

Just be clear with your definitions please, makes things much easier.

To everyone else; please make sure I get things right.
Title: Re: What is existence?
Post by: DunkleSeele on June 10, 2014, 09:28:16 AM
Quote from: Ferrin on June 10, 2014, 08:50:48 AM
Depending on how you define matter this may not apply:
We need to build up from our current knowledge to fill in the pieces of the puzzle, what you do by defining your "Absolute Truth" is imagining where the borders of the puzzle are before we even get there. The assumption you make about the universe is based on our current knowledge, and regards future knowledge. It's assuming we know enough about the universe now and giving a truth-statement about it.

If matter is "anything that matters":
It's highly likely that there exist things outside of our means to observe them, perhaps we will never observe these things and they're all around us, in a state that doesn't interact with us and anything we may ever observe. Are those things part of your "Absolute Truth"? Because if they're not, which I'm fairly certain of as you define "Absolute Truth" with matter(Which is also vague, please define), then saying "Absolute Truth" is no different from "the universe". If it does include things beyond our existence, read my earlier post about things like that.

Just be clear with your definitions please, makes things much easier.

To everyone else; please make sure I get things right.
Well, I for one have a bit of an issue with the part I've bolded. As I understand it - and please correct me if I'm wrong - you're referring to something "supernatural", in the sense that these things aren't subject to our natural laws. If this is the case I have to point out that, so far, there's not even a hint of such things existing, let alone them being "all around us". Can you please shed some light on your thoughts?
Title: Re: What is existence?
Post by: Ferrin on June 10, 2014, 10:40:20 AM
Quote from: DunkleSeele on June 10, 2014, 09:28:16 AM
Well, I for one have a bit of an issue with the part I've bolded. As I understand it - and please correct me if I'm wrong - you're referring to something "supernatural", in the sense that these things aren't subject to our natural laws. If this is the case I have to point out that, so far, there's not even a hint of such things existing, let alone them being "all around us". Can you please shed some light on your thoughts?

Oh oops, disregard the "highly likely", I didn't proofread it properly. It's impossible to determine the likelyhood of such things as they will never be relevant to us whatsoever, for all intents and purposes they would not exist for us. What I mean is that it's possible for things to exist even if we have no way of ever interacting or observing the effect of these things. I did not mean anything supernatural as any effect these things would have on things we -can- observe would mean it's by definition not something not effecting our existence. And as I said earlier, it's meaningless to consider these things as they by definition have no effect on us.

I hope this cleared it up a bit, I did not mean to apply anything that has an effect on us in any way whatsoever, and just the hypothetical existence of things we can never observe. Thanks for pointing it out. :)
Title: Re: What is existence?
Post by: Bibliofagus on June 10, 2014, 11:05:19 AM
So this thread about existence is actually about policymaking?

I'm going to need a drink.
Title: Re: What is existence?
Post by: frosty on June 10, 2014, 04:37:05 PM
Quote from: aitm on June 08, 2014, 12:05:25 PM
Humanity has had at least two great moments of arrogance, the first being that a "god" created the universe just for them, the second that they and they alone define what is and what is not.

But go tell a religious person that and they will immediately reply saying you are the arrogant one. It's a back and forth shitfest that seems, literally, like it never ends.

In fact, I find it interesting that many posts here characterize faith as an act of pride/arrogance/hubris because I've been labelled as such in my many gruelling battles with Theists on the Internet over the years.

Both sides think the opposition is arrogant. Who can settle the issue once and for all? I don't think anybody can.
Title: Re: What is existence?
Post by: Moralnihilist on June 10, 2014, 04:52:26 PM
Quote from: frosty on June 10, 2014, 04:37:05 PM
But go tell a religious person that and they will immediately reply saying you are the arrogant one. It's a back and forth shitfest that seems, literally, like it never ends.

In fact, I find it interesting that many posts here characterize faith as an act of pride/arrogance/hubris because I've been labelled as such in my many gruelling battles with Theists on the Internet over the years.

Both sides think the opposition is arrogant. Who can settle the issue once and for all? I don't think anybody can.

The arrogance of the theist argument is thus: I don't know, therefore I know that it was my god.
The atheist "arrogance" is thus: I don't know, therefore I don't know.

By making the claim to have an insight to whatever it is, even after admitting that one has no knowledge, displays arrogance. By admitting a persons knowledge limitations is not arrogance(at least not by any definition of the word Ive ever heard/used).
Title: Re: What is existence?
Post by: frosty on June 10, 2014, 05:21:46 PM
Quote from: Moralnihilist on June 10, 2014, 04:52:26 PM
The arrogance of the theist argument is thus: I don't know, therefore I know that it was my god.
The atheist "arrogance" is thus: I don't know, therefore I don't know.

By making the claim to have an insight to whatever it is, even after admitting that one has no knowledge, displays arrogance. By admitting a persons knowledge limitations is not arrogance(at least not by any definition of the word Ive ever heard/used).

I think after what you said, the religious person would just reply back with emotion, testifying "You are the one with the arrogance since you don't believe in god" or something to that effect. It's what I seen literally every time I've argued with a Theist on this matter. I guess you could say this is like the equivalent of slamming your cranium into a brick wall, repeatedly. The Theist will simply keep repeating themselves and it's like arguing with a 4-8 year old (around that age group).
Title: Re: What is existence?
Post by: Moralnihilist on June 10, 2014, 06:24:03 PM
Quote from: frosty on June 10, 2014, 05:21:46 PM
I think after what you said, the religious person would just reply back with emotion, testifying "You are the one with the arrogance since you don't believe in god" or something to that effect. It's what I seen literally every time I've argued with a Theist on this matter. I guess you could say this is like the equivalent of slamming your cranium into a brick wall, repeatedly. The Theist will simply keep repeating themselves and it's like arguing with a 4-8 year old (around that age group).

Most definitely, the issue is that the theist is arguing from arrogance and a sense of threat(that what they base their world view on is incorrect) and then constructs a invalid counter argument to "support" their claim that the atheist position of "I don't know, therefore I don't know" is based off of arrogance. The best counter argument to theist claims of god I have found is:
"Where is your scientifically backed, testable, repeatable, peer reviewed proof?"
That "argument" results in some rather humorous responses from theists. And yes some still come off and try to claim that a request for valid evidence as arrogant. At which time I break out the old dictionary definition of the word.
an attitude of superiority manifested in an overbearing manner or in presumptuous claims or assumptions(Merriam-Webster).
As I make not claims nor do I have an attitude of superiority because of my being an atheist I must assume that I am not arrogant. By taking a stance of non-belief I am not claiming that a god does not exist, only that there is a lack of evidence to support the assertion that one exists. If there ever comes a time that evidence becomes available that a god exists(and is actually valid) then I would acknowledge said beings existence. Would I worship this being? Probably not, but I would be more than willing to admit that it exists.
Title: Re: What is existence?
Post by: Aupmanyav on June 11, 2014, 12:09:14 AM
We do not know at present. It depends on the answer to the question whether energy/matter is eternal or it arose out of 'absolute nothing'. And what is the relation between existence and non-existence.
Title: Re: What is existence?
Post by: wittgenstein on October 10, 2014, 12:58:50 PM
Existence is not a predicate (Kant). Science deals with quantifiable properties. Therefore a question such as "why is there something rather than nothing" is outside its area of knowledge. Science deals with empirical data. Existence is not a measurable property, because it is not a property. The most science can say about "why there is something rather than nothing" is that the universe is a brute fact and has no explanation.
Title: Re: What is existence?
Post by: wittgenstein on October 10, 2014, 01:07:03 PM
Of course one can speculate. One theory popular with many physicists is that before creation there was nothing,including logic. Therefore an absurdity such as getting something from nothing is possible. They even invented a new logic ( a does not =a) called paraconsistent logic.
Basically, that is saying that the ultimate explanation as to why there is something rather than nothing is that there is no explanation. Explanations ( for us humans ) require a logic that makes sense to us. Simply saying that A does not = a is like saying "a square circle". Sure we can say that,but can anyone know what a square circle is?
Title: Re: What is existence?
Post by: Jason78 on October 10, 2014, 01:16:36 PM
Quote from: wittgenstein on October 10, 2014, 01:07:03 PM
Sure we can say that,but can anyone know what a square circle is?

It's a circle where each corner is a right angle.
Title: Re: What is existence?
Post by: AllPurposeAtheist on October 10, 2014, 02:16:00 PM
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRb18D78nIrD1riLsdxnjsf2JnoGPcVmCpdlciHnlusUhCA1YFVlgiiv1Z2)
Title: Re: What is existence?
Post by: wittgenstein on October 11, 2014, 07:57:03 AM
Quote from: Jason78 on October 10, 2014, 01:16:36 PM
It's a circle where each corner is a right angle.
That does not get rid of the self contradiction. " A circle with each corner being a right angle " is a self-contradictory sentence. Similarly, no one can understand what a married bachelor is.
Granted, self-contradictions are many in quantum mechanics. My point is that for us humans they explain nothing.
Many physicists have abandoned hope of any explanation and have become logical positivists. * In other words they accept that their equations accurately predict results but explain nothing.
* Logical positism is famous for being self refuting. Logical positism's fundamental belief is that if a proposition is neither analytical or empirical it is gibberish.  Is the proposition " any proposition that is neither analytical or empirical is gibberish " analytical?   Nope! Is it empirical?  Nope! Therefore the central idea of logical positism is gibberish!
Title: Re: What is existence?
Post by: Hakurei Reimu on October 12, 2014, 07:13:10 AM
Quote from: wittgenstein on October 11, 2014, 07:57:03 AM
That does not get rid of the self contradiction. " A circle with each corner being a right angle " is a self-contradictory sentence. Similarly, no one can understand what a married bachelor is.

Who cares about self-contradiction? What was asked is whether a "square circle" is comprehensible. That's a different requirement, and a square circle is indeed comprehensible â€" comprehensible enough to know that there, in fact, cannot be any such things because the necessary requirements do indeed contradict each other. Similarly with "married bachelor." It is a concept that is perfectly comprehensible, and because we can comprehend it, we realize that there can be no such thing.

Quote from: wittgenstein on October 11, 2014, 07:57:03 AM
Granted, self-contradictions are many in quantum mechanics. My point is that for us humans they explain nothing.
Many physicists have abandoned hope of any explanation and have become logical positivists. * In other words they accept that their equations accurately predict results but explain nothing.

QM is not self-contradictory. The implications of QM are counterintiutive to the extreme, but not self-contradictory. You cannot use QM to come up with two disparate answers to the same physical question.

Quote from: wittgenstein on October 11, 2014, 07:57:03 AM
* Logical positism is famous for being self refuting. Logical positism's fundamental belief is that if a proposition is neither analytical or empirical it is gibberish.  Is the proposition " any proposition that is neither analytical or empirical is gibberish " analytical?   Nope! Is it empirical?  Nope! Therefore the central idea of logical positism is gibberish!
No. Using a system to analyze itself is in many ways improper. Otherwise, every system is 'self-defeating' and the entire intellectual edifice collapses. If you subscribe to logical positivism, you accept its axioms as true. "Any proposition that is neither analytical or empirical is gibberish," is not part of the set of positions that may be evaluated as gibberish â€" it's an axiom of the philosophy. You can evaluate that axiom on other grounds, but then you are not being a logical positivist.
Title: Re: What is existence?
Post by: AST111213 on November 28, 2014, 11:11:58 PM
It seems you are on the right track with your reasoning. Are you atheist, theists, etc? What is your philosophical or religious background? I don't believe atheists can account for absolute truth.
Title: Re: What is existence?
Post by: stromboli on November 30, 2014, 10:03:36 PM
The only absolute truth exists in a world of absolutes; your fantasy religious world. The only absolute is your god, which you cannot prove to exist.

You are posting in Mediumaevum's threads almost exclusively, which is an indication you are either a troll or a strawman. You haven't got anything, nada, nothing. Go back to your mommy and have a good cry, little man; you're wasting your time here.