The people that are holding signs in the middle of town are back. It seems like it's going to be every Sunday that they're going to be here.
I'm very tempted to go up to them and mess with them, Dusty Smith style. My town is 50% Jewish so if anything they would have more of a problem with the Bible thumpers at each corner of the town center than they would with me messing with them.
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/04/28/8uby4a6a.jpg)
Idk. What do you guys think? I won't be able to do it until next week anyway because I'm stuck at work for a few more hours.
Sent via your mom
:wall: Will this madness never end? Not until hell freezes over! :fU: Has anyone thought maybe the devil is winning with religion? Solitary
Quote from: Solitary on April 27, 2014, 04:40:55 PM
:wall: Will this madness never end? Not until hell freezes over! :fU: Has anyone thought maybe the devil is winning with religion? Solitary
The devil gives God his business.
Sent via your mom
I have been told that left in the sun for a few day an egg gets extremely smelly, I have also been told that to inject an egg with ammonia will hasten that effect. Once the desired "doneness" is reached one merely drives by an area "outside" of poor human olfactory senses and simply drops said egg on pavement, er I mean in the woods or preferably buried....I would not recommend this to hasten the exit of humans from a certain area as it may make some very ill....
:whistle:
Quote from: aitm on April 27, 2014, 04:51:48 PM
I have been told that left in the sun for a few day an egg gets extremely smelly, I have also been told that to inject an egg with ammonia will hasten that effect. Once the desired "doneness" is reached one merely drives by an area "outside" of poor human olfactory senses and simply drops said egg on pavement, er I mean in the woods or preferably buried....I would not recommend this to hasten the exit of humans from a certain area as it may make some very ill....
:whistle:
So are you saying that I smell? Or are you telling me to throw rotten eggs at them? :lol:
Sent via your mom
I would never suggest anyone throwing anything at anyone.....one merely drops one on the ground....or pavement......or from a radio controlled helicopter....fuck man how fucking cool would that be? er I mean...dastardly rat bastards.
Quote from: aitm on April 27, 2014, 05:10:33 PM
I would never suggest anyone throwing anything at anyone.....one merely drops one on the ground....or pavement......or from a radio controlled helicopter....fuck man how fucking cool would that be? er I mean...dastardly rat bastards.
Oh. well.... I'm still going to take a shower either way.
I'm sure I can MacGyver something like Smalls did in The Sandlot. Or maybe I'll just let a carton rot in my back yard for a week or two then walk past them and "trip"
Sent via your mom
What does the lady's sign even say? It looks like, "God is not DIYL, 'Let God,'" which barely even sounds like English to me.
It's "DIY! ", but yeah. That second sentence... Isn't.
Sent via your mom
Buzz them with one of these: http://www.gadgetsandgear.com/flying-fuck.html (http://www.gadgetsandgear.com/flying-fuck.html)
(http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/yhst-54334793715728_2269_2748303626)
Get someone to dress up in a bible costume, like this:
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-o6lqhS2FBGs/Tno3ibaHhgI/AAAAAAAAAUw/KM-KJDqOYK0/s1600/Bible-Book-Costume.jpg)
Then have someone get behind them thrusting their hips holding a sign that reads "Bible humpers."
They're also all over this site anymore, one of the reasons I'm a bit tired of it and not much interested in hanging about. I'm not interested in one fucking thing the pricks have to say so I'll drop by once in awhile, but that's about it.
Quote from: Solitary on April 27, 2014, 04:40:55 PM
:wall: Will this madness never end? Not until hell freezes over! :fU: Has anyone thought maybe the devil is winning with religion? Solitary
According the Dante some number : some other number. Where Dante walks into the 9th level of hell....Hell IS frozen lol.
So its gonna take more than hell freezing over to get them to stop.
What I really want to know is why so many of them feel the need to terrorize to convert to their cult? Signs that say Jesus love ya? I am cool with those. The ones in this picture are alright and I do not have a problem with it. But those , repent sinners or god forbid those...Westboro trash. Those are the people we need to be messing with most hardcore than anyone else.
Quote from: aitm on April 27, 2014, 04:51:48 PM
I have been told that left in the sun for a few day an egg gets extremely smelly, I have also been told that to inject an egg with ammonia will hasten that effect. Once the desired "doneness" is reached one merely drives by an area "outside" of poor human olfactory senses and simply drops said egg on pavement, er I mean in the woods or preferably buried....I would not recommend this to hasten the exit of humans from a certain area as it may make some very ill....
:whistle:
Good old fashion shit works better. Not much work in producing it, easy to throw, creates a huge mess, and the smell lasts awhile.
However, if one truly wants them to not come back: skunk bombs work the best.
-Nam
Stop being a pussy about it, dress up and challenge them with toothfairianism.. :lol:
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRJDMBXjJRg4bITMzB87BDMvbt7RrvZwAChzsPhyheC9irCrmcVs0D7BDol)
Play them at their own game..........
(http://i62.tinypic.com/ohvn29.png)
(http://i58.tinypic.com/6teqno.jpg)
:lol:
Don't ya just love official statements from government during disasters or really anything bad happening: Our thoughts and prayers are with.... Translation: Tough shit pal..
I'd say leave them be, it's freedom of speech.. freedom of religion. Although I don't agree with religion in a ritualistic sense, there is nothing extreme in this case, just some peaceful people reaching out to those that may be interested.
I see that my rank is "Primordial ooze", well that's going to have to change soon since I don't believe in the stuff.
Quote from: AllPurposeAtheist on July 17, 2014, 12:32:11 PM
Don't ya just love official statements from government during disasters or really anything bad happening: Our thoughts and prayers are with.... Translation: Tough shit pal..
Just reveals how lacking Atheists are in sympathy, I'm sure they lack in many other ways too. What is wrong with 'our thoughts and prayers'? it is the best response for the given situation.
Quote from: oliver on August 01, 2014, 01:39:48 PM
Just reveals how lacking Atheists are in sympathy, I'm sure they lack in many other ways too. What is wrong with 'our thoughts and prayers'? it is the best response for the given situation.
yeah..nothing oozes sympathy like offering prayers to something that won't do a fucking thing about anything....yeah real sympathetic.
"Hey, let me cut you off , imam gonna pray to god, while I know he didnt' save my uncle or billy boe, or that group of kids in the church bus, or the whole parish down in weesiana, but anyhoo, imma gonna pray for your little child to be cured of this horrible disease which satan created unbeknownst to god almitty. ramen"
I put these people on the level of panhandlers.
Quote from: oliver on August 01, 2014, 01:33:30 PM
I'd say leave them be, it's freedom of speech.. freedom of religion. Although I don't agree with religion in a ritualistic sense, there is nothing extreme in this case, just some peaceful people reaching out to those that may be interested.
You do that. I'll exercise my own freedom of speech and challenge them.
Quote from: oliver on August 01, 2014, 01:37:02 PM
I see that my rank is "Primordial ooze", well that's going to have to change soon since I don't believe in the stuff.
You have to earn a higher niche in evolution by posting.
Quote from: aitm on August 01, 2014, 01:44:06 PM
yeah..nothing oozes sympathy like offering prayers to something that won't do a fucking thing about anything....yeah real sympathetic.
"Hey, let me cut you off , imam gonna pray to god, while I know he didnt' save my uncle or billy boe, or that group of kids in the church bus, or the whole parish down in weesiana, but anyhoo, imma gonna pray for your little child to be cured of this horrible disease which satan created unbeknownst to god almitty. ramen"
what about thoughts then as opposed to "tough shit pal". In your logic, If I hit somebody with my car for example, I would just drive on not giving a shit..? No, I would stop and assess the situation, call an ambulance if need be and at the very least feel awful about.. that is the right way isn't it? This sympathetic feeling stems from my world-view, that of peace and a desire to help those in need and make the world a better place.. atheists, it seems, will fuck up everything.
What gets me is that these people are "trying" to "save" people from "unknown" forces. Instead they should all of that energy to improve their own lives.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on August 01, 2014, 02:15:49 PM
You have to earn a higher niche in evolution by posting.
you mean a higher niche in the forum
Quote from: Naru on August 01, 2014, 03:16:49 PM
What gets me is that these people are "trying" to "save" people from "unknown" forces. Instead they should all of that energy to improve their own lives.
In a way I agree. I just get on with my life and if people want to hear what I have to say that's fine. It takes many different types of people to make a world therefore we will always encounter ideologies that clash with our own.. hence the forums and other platforms for voicing our opinions/beliefs
those unknown forces are certainly unknown.. you seem to accept that there are forces, just unknown.. it's a start.
Quote from: stromboli on August 01, 2014, 02:01:27 PM
I put these people on the level of panhandlers.
which people? Are you talking about people of Faith? Why do you consider yourself so high and mighty then?
Quote from: oliver on August 01, 2014, 03:21:08 PM
you mean a higher niche in the forum
Why do you think you are qualified to tell me what I mean?
Quote from: oliver on August 01, 2014, 03:28:57 PM
which people? Are you talking about people of Faith? Why do you consider yourself so high and mighty then?
You have an amazing gift for extrapolation. the topic was street corner religious demonstraters; that would be "these people." And the simple statement I made was concerning them. I did not, at any point, indicate I was above them. I was making a comparison.
And if you don't want to look up extrapolation, try jumping to conclusions.
Quote from: oliver on August 01, 2014, 03:10:18 PM
. atheists, it seems, will fuck up everything.
yeah I am sure you are quite the expert on atheists.....but yet missed the whole Westboro church of ....whatever the fuck they are. Good for you. Blind obedience is still...fucking blind.
Quote from: oliver on August 01, 2014, 03:28:57 PM
which people? Are you talking about people of Faith? Why do you consider yourself so high and mighty then?
People of faith? Faith is belief in something you can't prove. Now substitute those people with people supporting the Church of Satan. those are people of faith. do you support and believe in them? If your answer is no, then you are one religion away from being an atheist.
South African. apartheid much? Seems the whole racist thing hasn't gone away.
http://blogs.24.com/jeanius/2013/08/10/racism-is-alive-and-well-in-south-africa/
QuoteRacial discrimination remains widespread at most South African universities, despite many policies aimed at redressing the bitter legacy of Apartheid. In 2008 four students at the University of Free State made a racist video that created an international uproar. While during the same year in April, it was reported that black students at the University of Johannesburg had allegedly been assaulted by their white counterparts while at a university bar.
Xolani Mkhwemnte chairperson of the South African Students’ Congress told the Johannesburg based Star newspaper that black students at the university’s Kingsway campus had been beaten by white students in a bar at a hall of residence. He said the harassment of black students walking home at night and the verbal and physical abuse of senior black student members had become common.
Here's a thought, theist boy. Why don't you clean the shit out of your own nest before you come here and shit in ours.
I'm too drunk right now to deal with your shit, Oliver. All I'm going to say is freedom of speech is also freedom for me to tell them that what they are peddling is completely fucked and delusional.
Sent from your mom
Stromboli, did I comment yet on how awesome underboob is? Good form on your part with that avatar. Very good form.
Quote from: PickelledEggs on August 02, 2014, 01:24:20 AM
Stromboli, did I comment yet on how awesome underboob is? Good form on your part with that avatar. Very good form.
You did, actually. But thanks again. comments about "drunk posting" later. :biggrin:
Quote from: PickelledEggs on April 27, 2014, 04:43:52 PM
The devil gives God his business.
I like the devil, he's actually a sexy guy.
(http://th00.deviantart.net/fs22/300W/i/2008/208/7/7/Satan_by_the_real_ronin_X.jpg)
Woof!!
Quote from: oliver on August 01, 2014, 01:39:48 PM
Just reveals how lacking Atheists are in sympathy, I'm sure they lack in many other ways too. What is wrong with 'our thoughts and prayers'? it is the best response for the given situation.
Your reasoning here is fundamentally incorrect, and a demonstration of how narrow-mindedness causes conflict amongst people.
Quote from: PickelledEggs on August 02, 2014, 12:50:44 AM
I'm too drunk right now to deal with your shit, Oliver. All I'm going to say is freedom of speech is also freedom for me to tell them that what they are peddling is completely fucked and delusional.
Sent from your mom
PROOF that atheists are drunks!
We all have our way to deal with ignorance, drinking, or being ignorant with God. :fU: Solitary
Quote from: Solitary on August 02, 2014, 04:06:40 PM
We all have our way to deal with ignorance, drinking, or being ignorant with God. :fU: Solitary
I've been told before that I'm ignorant for not understanding the bible or god.
I was told I'm too stupid to imagine God by a coworker. I told him I'm smart enough I can imagine him in hell . :super:
Quote from: Solitary on August 02, 2014, 04:13:06 PM
I was told I'm too stupid to imagine God by a coworker. I told him I'm smart enough I can imagine him in hell . :super:
How smart does one have to be to create an imaginary friend that, in reality, does nothing for them?
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on August 03, 2014, 07:46:19 AM
How smart does one have to be to create an imaginary friend that, in reality, does nothing for them?
If thats the case, my 4 year old nephews a genius.
[/quote]
Quote from: PickelledEggs on August 02, 2014, 12:50:44 AM
I'm too drunk right now to deal with your shit, Oliver. All I'm going to say is freedom of speech is also freedom for me to tell them that what they are peddling is completely fucked and delusional.
Sent from your mom
well sober up then and maybe you'll start making sense
Quote from: oliver on August 05, 2014, 03:38:15 PM
well sober up then and maybe you'll start making sense
I'm sober now and your posts are still moronic.
Sent from your mom
Quote from: stromboli on August 01, 2014, 08:09:34 PM
South African. apartheid much? Seems the whole racist thing hasn't gone away.
http://blogs.24.com/jeanius/2013/08/10/racism-is-alive-and-well-in-south-africa/
Here's a thought, theist boy. Why don't you clean the shit out of your own nest before you come here and shit in ours.
it's called narrow-mindedness, yes some people can't make social changes and the reasons for this are very complex as is SA politics. You need to live here to understand it and if you want to know more about it I'm happy to help. What we're seeing here in SA is reverse apartheid, whites are becoming more and more marginalized in this society.. which in turn causes anxiety and yes, incidences occur. What does this have to do with the topic at hand? I am not a politician, don't care much for politics either and therefore I cannot do much to clean the 'shit' up as you call it. I can tell you that if everybody in this country had a common belief in God and adhered to the ten commandments, we'd be a perfect society. Actually I wish this upon the world. In contrast, if we were all atheists with free will.. well, we could do whatever we wanted to do and that would not be a good thing.
Hey oliver:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyXggq-dvu0
Quote from: PickelledEggs on August 05, 2014, 04:15:00 PM
Hey oliver:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyXggq-dvu0
what is it? tell me what it is first. Ah just saw the title.. clever post
Quote from: oliver on August 05, 2014, 04:34:41 PM
what is it? tell me what it is first. Ah just saw the title.. clever post
It's a video of what you are telling us.
Sent from your mom
Quote from: PickelledEggs on August 05, 2014, 04:38:28 PM
It's a video of what you are telling us.
Sent from your mom
what do you think is bullshit?
Quote from: oliver on August 05, 2014, 04:39:55 PM
Quote from: PickelledEggs on August 05, 2014, 04:38:28 PM
It's a video of what you are telling us.
Sent from your mom
what do you think is bullshit?
Practically everything you have said in this thread.
Sent from your mom
Quote from: PickelledEggs on August 05, 2014, 04:38:28 PM
It's a video of what you are telling us.
Sent from your mom
Think about it, if everybody followed the ten commandments then we'd live in a perfect world. What we have when people disregard those commandments is crime and general decay in society, how could those commandments be considered in a bad way? Could somebody respond to this without saying it's bullshit.. thanks!
Quote from: oliver on August 05, 2014, 04:43:47 PM
Think about it, if everybody followed the ten commandments then we'd live in a perfect world. What we have when people disregard those commandments is crime and general decay in society, how could those commandments be considered in a bad way?
MOD* oliver, this is an atheist forum. If you want to learn about our non-belief or why we don't believe in any of the thousands of gods that have been imagined since humans have roamed the earth, you are welcome here. If you are going to insist on converting us, that's a different story and one of us might just dump you in the troll bin.
Quote from: PickelledEggs on August 05, 2014, 04:50:11 PM
oliver, this is an atheist forum. If you want to learn about our non-belief or why we don't believe in any of the thousands of gods that have been imagined since humans have roamed the earth, you are welcome here. If you are going to insist on converting us, that's a different story and one of us might just dump you in the troll bin.
Quote from: PickelledEggs on August 05, 2014, 04:40:28 PM
Practically everything you have said in this thread.
Sent from your mom
I don't mean to convert anybody and believers are welcome on this forum. If you want me to leave I will but I find it interesting here, I don't wish to offend anybody nor convert aybody. If somebody sees any merit in what I write then so be it, that's their perogative. I guess the believers here would be seeking atheism, therefore I am out of place
Ok then. Feel free to be a part of the forum. Just keep that in mind. Thank you for your cooperation.
Quote from: PickelledEggs on August 05, 2014, 05:00:14 PM
Ok then. Feel free to be a part of the forum. Just keep that in mind. Thank you for your cooperation.
thank you
And try not to imitate any of the hundreds of trolls we've seen here. Just a suggestion.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on August 06, 2014, 08:20:53 AM
And try not to imitate any of the hundreds of trolls we've seen here. Just a suggestion.
Nope not a troll
http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/features/2010/04/hitchens-201004
Quote
The New Commandments
The Ten Commandments were set in stone, but it may be time for a re-chisel. With all due humility, the author takes on the job, pruning the ethically dubious, challenging the impossible, and rectifying some serious omissions.
What do we say when we want to revisit a long-standing policy or scheme that no longer seems to be serving us or has ceased to produce useful results? We begin by saying tentatively, “Well, it’s not exactly written in stone.†(Sometimes this comes out as “not set in stone.â€)
By that, people mean that it’s not one of the immutable Tablets of the Law. Thus, more recent fetishes such as the gold standard, or the supposedly holy laws of the free market, can be discarded as not being incised on granite or marble. But what if it is the original stone version that badly needs a re-write? Who will take up the revisionist chisel?
There is in fact a good biblical precedent for doing just that, since the giving of the divine Law by Moses appears in three or four wildly different scriptural versions. (When you hear people demanding that the Ten Commandments be displayed in courtrooms and schoolrooms, always be sure to ask which set. It works every time.) The first and most famous set comes in Exodus 20 but ends with Moses himself smashing the supposedly most sacred artifacts ever known to man: the original, God-dictated panels of Holy Writ. The second edition occurs in Exodus 34, where new but completely different tablets are presented after some heavenly re-write session and are for the first time called “the ten commandments.†In the fifth chapter of Deuteronomy, Moses once more calls his audience together and recites the original Sinai speech with one highly significant alteration (the Sabbath commandment’s justifications in each differ greatly). But plainly discontented with the effect of this, he musters the flock again 22 chapters further on, as the river Jordan is coming into view, and gives an additional set of ordersâ€"chiefly terse cursesâ€"which are also to be inscribed in stone. As with the gold plates on which Joseph Smith found the Book of Mormon in upstate New York, no trace of any of these original yet conflicting tablets survives.
Thus we are fully entitled to consider them as a work in progress. May there not be some old commandments that could be retired, as well as some new ones that might be adopted? Taking the most celebrated Top 10 in order, we find (I am using the King James, or “Authorized,†version of the text):
I and II
These commandments are in fact a mixture of related injunctions. I am the lord thy God.… Thou shalt have no other gods before me. This use of capitalization and upper- and lowercase carries the intriguing implication that there perhaps are some other gods but not equally deserving of respect or awe. (Scholars differ about the epoch during which the Jewish people decided on monotheism.) Then comes the prohibition of “graven images†or indeed “any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.†This appears to forbid representational art, just as some Muslims interpret the Koran to forbid the depiction of any human form, let alone any sacred one.
(It certainly seems to discourage Christian iconography, with its crucifixes, and statues of virgins and saints.) But the ban is obviously intended as a very emphatic one, since it comes with a reminder that I the lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation. The collective punishment of future children, for the sin of lèse-majesté, may not strike everyone as an especially moral promise.
III
Thou shalt not take the name of the lord thy God in vain, for the lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. A slightly querulous and repetitive note is struck here, as if of injured vanity. Nobody knows how to obey this commandment, or how to avoid blasphemy or profanity. For example, I say “God alone knows†when I sincerely intend to say “Nobody knows.†Is this ontologically dangerous? Ought not unalterable laws to be plain and unambiguous?
IV
Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. This ostensibly brief commandment goes on for a long timeâ€"for four verses in factâ€"and stresses the importance of a day dedicated to the lord, during which neither one’s children nor one’s servants or animals should be allowed to perform any tasks. (Query: Why is it specifically addressed to people who are assumed to have staff?)
Nobody is opposed to a day of rest. The international Communist movement got its start by proclaiming a strike for an eight-hour day on May 1, 1886, against Christian employers who used child labor seven days a week. But in Exodus 20:8â€"11, the reason given for the day off is that “in six days the lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day.â€
Yet in Deuteronomy 5:15 a different reason for the Sabbath observance is offered: “Remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the lord thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the lord thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.†Preferable though this may be, with its reminder of previous servitude, we again find mixed signals here. Why can’t rest be recommended for its own sake? Also, why can’t the infallible and omniscient and omnipotent one make up his mind what the real reason is?
V
Honor thy father and thy mother. Innocuous as this may seem, it is the only commandment that comes with an inducement instead of an implied threat. Both the Exodus and Deuteronomy versions urge it for the same reason: “that thy days may be long upon the land which the lord thy God giveth thee.†This perhaps has the slight suggestion of being respectful to Father and Mother in order to come into an inheritanceâ€"the Israelites have already been promised the Canaanite territory that is currently occupied by other people, so the prospective legacy pickings are rather rich. Again, why not propose filial piety as a nice thing in itself?
VI
Thou shalt not kill. This very celebrated commandment quite obviously cannot mean what it seems to say in English translation. In the original Hebrew it comes across as something more equivalent to “Thou shalt do no murder.†We can be fairly sure that the “original intent†is not in any way pacifistic, because immediately after he breaks the original tablets in a fit of rage, Moses summons his Levite faction and says (Exodus 32:27â€"28):
Thus saith the lord God of Israel, put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbor. And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.
With its seven-word preface, that order, too, obviously constituted a “commandment†of some sort. The whole book of Exodus is a commandment-rich environment, littered with other fierce orders to slay people for numberless minor offenses (including violations of the Sabbath) and also includes the sinister, ominous verse “Thou shalt not suffer [permit] a witch to live,†which was taken as a divine instruction by Christians until relatively recently in human history. Some work is obviously needed here: what is first-degree or third-degree killing and what isn’t? Distinguishing killing from murder is not a job easily left to mortals: what are we to do if God himself can’t tell the difference?
VII
Thou shalt not commit adultery. For some reason, “the seventh†is the only one of the commandments that is still widely known by its actual number. Extramarital carnal knowledge was probably more of a threat to society when families and tribes were closer-knit, and more bound by stern codes of honor. Having provided the raw material for most of the plays and novels ever published in nonâ€"Middle Eastern languages, adultery continues to be a great source of misery and joy and fascination. Most criminal codes have long given up the attempt to make it a punishable offense in law: its rewards and punishments are carefully administered by its practitioners and victims. It perhaps does not deserve to be classed with murder or theft or perjury, which brings us to:
VIII
Thou shalt not steal. Not much to query here. Those who have worked hard to acquire a bit of property are entitled to resent those who would rather steal than work, and when society evolves to the point where there is wealth that belongs to nobodyâ€"public or social propertyâ€"those who plunder it for private gain are rightly regarded with hatred and contempt. Admittedly, the prosperity of some families and some states is also founded on original theft, but in that case the same principle of disapproval can apply.
IX
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor. This is possibly the most sophisticated ruling in the whole Decalogue. Human society is inconceivable unless words are to some extent bonds, and in legal disputes we righteously demand the swearing of oaths that entail severe penalties for perjury. Until recently, much testimony before Congress was taken without witnesses being “swornâ€: this allowed a great deal of official lying. Nothing focuses the attention more than a reminder that one is speaking on oath. The word “witness†expresses one of our noblest concepts. “Bearing witness†is a high moral responsibility.
Note, also, how relatively flexible this commandment is. Its fulcrum is the word “against.†If you are quite sure of somebody’s innocence and you shade the truth a little in the witness-box, you are no doubt technically guilty of perjury and may be privately troubled. But if you consciously lie in order to indict someone who is not guilty, you have done something irretrievably foul.
X
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbor’s. There are several details that make this perhaps the most questionable of the commandments. Leaving aside the many jokes about whether or not it’s O.K. or kosher to covet thy neighbor’s wife’s ass, you are bound to notice once again that, like the Sabbath order, it’s addressed to the servant-owning and property-owning class. Moreover, it lumps the wife in with the rest of the chattel (and in that epoch could have been rendered as “thy neighbor’s wives,†to boot).
Notice also that no specific act is being pronounced as either compulsory (the Sabbath) or forbidden (perjury). Instead, this is the first but not the last introduction in the Bible of the totalitarian concept of “thought crime.†You are being told, in effect, not even to think about it. (Jesus of Nazareth in the New Testament takes this a step further, announcing that those with lust in their heart have already committed the sin of adultery. In that case, you might as well be hungâ€"or stonedâ€"for a sheep as for a lamb, or for an ox or an ass if it cometh to that.) Wise lawmakers know that it is a mistake to promulgate legislation that is impossible to obey.
There are further objections to be made. From the “left†point of view, how is it moral to prohibit people from regarding the gains of the rich as ill-gotten, or from demanding a fairer distribution of wealth? From the “right†point of view, why is it wicked to be ambitious and acquisitive? And is not envy a great spur to emulation and competition? I once had a debate on these points with Rabbi Harold Kushner, author of that consoling text When Bad Things Happen to Good People, and he told me that there is a scholarly Talmudic argument, or midrash, maintaining that “neighbor†in this context really does mean immediate next-door neighbor. For that matter, there is persuasive textual argument that “neighbor†in much of the Bible means only “fellow Jew.†But it seems rather a waste of a commandment to confine it to either the Joneses or the Semites.
What emerges from the first review is this: the Ten Commandments were derived from situational ethics. They show every symptom of having been man-made and improvised under pressure. They are addressed to a nomadic tribe whose main economy is primitive agriculture and whose wealth is sometimes counted in people as well as animals. They are also addressed to a group that has been promised the land and flocks of other people: the Amalekites and Midianites and others whom God orders them to kill, rape, enslave, or exterminate. And this, too, is important because at every step of their arduous journey the Israelites are reminded to keep to the laws, not because they are right but just because they will lead them to become conquerors (of, as it happens, almost the only part of the Middle East that has no oil).
So, then: how to prune and how to amend? Numbers One through Three can simply go, since they have nothing to do with morality and are no more than a long, rasping throat clearing by an admittedly touchy dictator. Mere fear of unseen authority is not a sound basis for ethics. The associated ban on sculpture and pictorial art should also be lifted. Number Four can possibly stay, though rest periods are not exactly an ethical imperative and are mandated by practicality as much as by heaven. At least, if shorn of its first and third and fourth redundant verses (none of which can possibly apply to non-Jews), Number Four does imply that there are rights as well as duties. For millions of people for thousands of years, the Sabbath was made a dreary burden of obligation and strict observance instead of a day of leisure or recreation. It also led to absurd hypocrisies that seem to treat God as a fool: He won’t notice if we make the elevators stop on every floor so that no pious Jew needs to press a button. This is unwholesome and over-strenuous.
As for Number Five, by all means respect for the elders, but why is there nothing to forbid child abuse? (Insolence on the part of children is punishable by death, according to Leviticus 20:9, only a few verses before the stipulation of the death penalty for male homosexuals.) A cruel or rude child is a ghastly thing, but a cruel or brutal parent can do infinitely more harm. Yet even in a long and exhaustive list of prohibitions, parental sadism or neglect is never once condemned. Memo to Sinai: rectify this omission.
Number Six: Note that mere human systems have done better subsequently in distinguishing different moral scales of homicide. Memo to Sinai: Are you morally absolute or aren’t you? If so, what about the poor massacred Midianites?
Number Seven: Fair enough if you must, but is polygamy adultery? Also, could not permanent monogamy have been made slightly more consonant with human nature? Why create people with lust in their hearts? Then again, what about rape? It seems to be very strongly recommended, along with genocide, slavery, and infanticide, in Numbers 31:1â€"18, and surely constitutes a rather extreme version of sex outside marriage.
Numbers Eight and Nine: Admirable. Also brief and to the point, with one rather useful nuance in the keyword “against.â€
Number Ten: Does wrong to women by making them property and also necessitates continual celestial wiretapping of private thoughts. Sinister and despotic in that it cannot be obeyed and thus makes sinners even of quite thoughtful people.
I am trying my best not to view things through a smug later prism. Only the Almighty can scan matters sub specie aeternitatis: from the viewpoint of eternity. One must also avoid cultural and historical relativism: there’s no point in retroactively ordering the Children of Israel to develop a germ theory of disease (so as to avoid mistaking plagues for divine punishments) or to understand astronomy (so as not to make foolish predictions and boasts based on the planets and stars). Still, if we think of the evils that afflict humanity today and that are man-made and not inflicted by nature, we would be morally numb if we did not feel strongly about genocide, slavery, rape, child abuse, sexual repression, white-collar crime, the wanton destruction of the natural world, and people who yak on cell phones in restaurants. (Also, people who commit simultaneous suicide and murder while screaming “God is greatâ€: is that taking the Lord’s name in vain or is it not?)
It’s difficult to take oneself with sufficient seriousness to begin any sentence with the words “Thou shalt not.†But who cannot summon the confidence to say: Do not condemn people on the basis of their ethnicity or color. Do not ever use people as private property. Despise those who use violence or the threat of it in sexual relations. Hide your face and weep if you dare to harm a child. Do not condemn people for their inborn natureâ€"why would God create so many homosexuals only in order to torture and destroy them? Be aware that you too are an animal and dependent on the web of nature, and think and act accordingly. Do not imagine that you can escape judgment if you rob people with a false prospectus rather than with a knife. Turn off that fucking cell phoneâ€"you have no idea how unimportant your call is to us. Denounce all jihadists and crusaders for what they are: psychopathic criminals with ugly delusions. Be willing to renounce any god or any religion if any holy commandments should contradict any of the above. In short: Do not swallow your moral code in tablet form.
Why do Christians always pick and choose from Scripture what they believe and ignore everything in it that doesn't? Solitary
Quote from: Solitary on August 06, 2014, 11:36:42 AM
Why do Christians always pick and choose from Scripture what they believe and ignore everything in it that doesn't? Solitary
Because even they get embarrassed as some of the absolute shit in
The Bronze Age Goat-herders' Anthology of Campfire Tales for Boys: God's Little Instruction Manual for Handling Slaves, Sex Slaves, Kitchen Help, Naughty Offspring, Babysitters and the Soon-to-be-extinct Tribes Next Door. Now with
The Egomaniacal Hippie and His All-Boy Posse Hang Out in Palestine.
:eek: Oh my Gawd! :rotflmao: Solitary
yeah but they have a right to hold the signs. this is america. why are you people against free speech. america is a christian state
Quote from: bigdavebear on August 07, 2014, 12:13:42 AM
yeah but they have a right to hold the signs. this is america.
Correct. It is free speech. Just as people have the right and freedom of speech to tell them that they are pushing batshit-crazy claims.
Quoteamerica is a christian state
Incorrect.
Have a nice day. :popcorn:
Quote from: PickelledEggs on August 07, 2014, 12:38:53 AM
Correct. It is free speech. Just as people have the right and freedom of speech to tell them that they are pushing batshit-crazy claims.
Incorrect.
Have a nice day. :popcorn:
how is it incorrect........... america has been a christian nation since its founding. most of the population is christian... lots of christians want modern america to reflect its true roots as a nation and go back to the bible and God as a way of government and life.......
Quote from: bigdavebear on August 07, 2014, 12:48:02 AM
how is it incorrect........... america has been a christian nation since its founding. most of the population is christian... lots of christians want modern america to reflect its true roots as a nation and go back to the bible and God as a way of government and life.......
El Oh El.
Have fun with this one, guys. If bigdavebear gets too frustrating for you, lmk :lol:
whats going on here........... whats your problem. you are against me because i am a believing christian. there is nothing wrong with wanting america to go back to its spiritual roots..... and what is "el oh el" are you speaking spanish.......
Quote from: bigdavebear on August 07, 2014, 12:13:42 AM
yeah but they have a right to hold the signs. this is america. why are you people against free speech. america is a christian state
What does Christianity have to do with free speech? Remember not so long ago when atheists tried to get billboards of atheist messages up? Who prevented them from doing that? That's right! Your freedom loving Christian.
The only time a Christian is for free speech is when it promotes their religion; otherwise: they're against it and do everything they can to stop it.
Hell, I hear so much on Christians burning books, I rarely (if ever) here non-Christians burning books.
Christians for freedom of speech. Only a Christian would say that.
Freedom for them, tyranny for everyone else.
-Nam
most americans agree with me........ that we need to go back to God ruling us instead of man. how can you possibly even suggest that all those people are wrong....... they are believing christians and christians have proven that when they have faith and are in the majority God gives us blessings
Quote from: bigdavebear on August 07, 2014, 01:01:36 AM
whats going on here........... whats your problem. you are against me because i am a believing christian. there is nothing wrong with wanting america to go back to its spiritual roots..... and what is "el oh el" are you speaking spanish.......
Spiritual roots? Many of the founding fathers were deists, atheists, and a few were Christian. The guy who wrote much of the Constitution (and considered the father of the constitution) was a deist and disliked much of the theology that is Christianity: James Madison.
Declaration of Independence was written by Thomas Jefferson, who many people can agree, hated Christianity. George Washington was a deist. Thomas Paine, a signer of the DoI, was a deist (perhaps an atheist) etc., but then, just like then, if you don't say you're Christian then you can't hold such high office.
Does that sound like freedom to you? Well, for Christians but back then mainly the Anglicans...I wonder which sect today?
However, none of that matters because the founding fathers were promoting a state not ruled by religion, and aimed more at secularism.
I wonder where that path ended?
-Nam
Quote from: bigdavebear on August 07, 2014, 01:07:30 AM
most americans agree with me........ that we need to go back to God ruling us instead of man. how can you possibly even suggest that all those people are wrong....... they are believing christians and christians have proven that when they have faith and are in the majority God gives us blessings
No, you mean: most Americans like you and most Americans are not like you, thankfully.
-Nam
Quote from: bigdavebear on August 07, 2014, 01:26:08 AM
that is all such bullshit........ cite your sources please. how can you deny that we are a christian nation and ive talked to people and seen polls that show that i am right...... american christians are eager for a return to the rule of God and stopping this corrupt cycle of being ruled by man and atheism..........
How about you cite your sources. You cite yours, I'll cite mine. Oh, and the criteria should be non-biased. This means if the people who created the poll intentially skewered it to favor their view you can't use that as a source.
-Nam
Quote from: Nam on August 07, 2014, 01:29:02 AM
How about you cite your sources. You cite yours, I'll cite mine. Oh, and the criteria should be non-biased. This means if the people who created the poll intentially skewered it to favor their view you can't use that as a source.
-Nam
He's in purgatory now. I gave him his warning and he kept spamming.
Quote from: PickelledEggs on August 07, 2014, 01:30:35 AM
He's in purgatory now. I gave him his warning and he kept spamming.
Dammit.
You're no fun.
:sad:
-Nam
You are a troll keeper, aren't you? I only did it so if you want to fuck with him, he's still not completely banned and he can still post in purgatory. I understand that we need our chewtoys now and then, but he just span way out of control too fast and not everyone in the forum enjoys that.
If you notice, the second a troll comes in here and starts pissing everyone off, we also start going at each other's throats. If you want I can try to spit his post in to purgatory so you can reply to it there and rip him apart like the chewtoy he is :biggrin:
He's moved here: http://atheistforums.com/index.php?topic=5907.0
Have fun.
A story I've heard of so many times is that of criminals and general misfits in society giving their life to God.. It is a transformation that cannot be matched by any worldly institution. The change in these peoples lives are profound, they now have self-worth and a reason to be accountable for their actions. Imagine how a country could be transformed in this manner or even on a larger scale, the world.. this change couldn't come sooner considering the problems we face today.
Quote from: oliver on August 07, 2014, 04:12:02 AMA story I've heard of so many times is that of criminals and general misfits in society giving their life to God.. It is a transformation that cannot be matched by any worldly institution.
That's definitely the sales pitch. However, people change their lives all the time and it's disproportionately the super religious ones with a story to tell. People like interesting stories. And people like stories that reinforce what they already believe. And in them, they find both. Plain ol' personal responsibility and determination just doesn't hold a candle to magic.
Quote from: oliver on August 07, 2014, 04:12:02 AM
A story I've heard of so many times is that of criminals and general misfits in society giving their life to God.. It is a transformation that cannot be matched by any worldly institution. The change in these peoples lives are profound, they now have self-worth and a reason to be accountable for their actions. Imagine how a country could be transformed in this manner or even on a larger scale, the world.. this change couldn't come sooner considering the problems we face today.
Nonsense.
-Nam
Nam, your avatar is offensive by the way. No offence :)
Quote from: oliver on August 07, 2014, 04:12:02 AM
A story I've heard of so many times is that of criminals and general misfits in society giving their life to God.. It is a transformation that cannot be matched by any worldly institution. The change in these peoples lives are profound, they now have self-worth and a reason to be accountable for their actions. Imagine how a country could be transformed in this manner or even on a larger scale, the world.. this change couldn't come sooner considering the problems we face today.
So, how about all the criminals in the prisons who are already Christians? Religious (or claiming to be religious) prisoners make up the vast majority of convicts. The rare instances of people "going straight" because they found religious makes me want to ask why it didn't work before they became criminals.
Quote from: oliver on August 07, 2014, 04:12:02 AM
A story I've heard of so many times is that of criminals and general misfits in society giving their life to God.. It is a transformation that cannot be matched by any worldly institution. The change in these peoples lives are profound, they now have self-worth and a reason to be accountable for their actions. Imagine how a country could be transformed in this manner or even on a larger scale, the world.. this change couldn't come sooner considering the problems we face today.
(http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m6a5d7bTJ91r1sdxqo2_500.gif)
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on August 07, 2014, 07:18:13 AM
So, how about all the criminals in the prisons who are already Christians? Religious (or claiming to be religious) prisoners make up the vast majority of convicts. The rare instances of people "going straight" because they found religious makes me want to ask why it didn't work before they became criminals.
forget about them.. everybody has their own issues to deal with.
Quote from: oliver on August 07, 2014, 07:14:03 AM
Nam, your avatar is offensive by the way. No offence :)
I think Numbers 31 is offensive.
Sent from your mom
Quote from: oliver on August 07, 2014, 09:27:18 AM
forget about them.. everybody has their own issues to deal with.
Welcome to the forum, troll.
Quote from: PickelledEggs on August 07, 2014, 01:30:35 AM
He's in purgatory now. I gave him his warning and he kept spamming.
Your power makes me wet.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on August 07, 2014, 10:11:57 AM
Welcome to the forum, troll.
Thank you but I've been here awhile already.. give up the troll thing already
Quote from: oliver on August 07, 2014, 10:18:22 AM
Thank you but I've been here awhile already.. give up the troll thing already
I was about to suggest you do the same thing.
Then I read more of your posts. Hopeless.
Quote from: oliver on August 07, 2014, 04:12:02 AMImagine how a country could be transformed in this manner or even on a larger scale, the world..
Its been done several times. We call this area of the world the Middle East. And last time I checked that area was a shithole.
:wtff:Why is it that the most annoying people that come here have the most insane looking self portrait avatars? :butt: :axe: :rotflmao: Solitary
Quote from: Solitary on August 07, 2014, 11:51:43 AM
:wtff:Why is it that the most annoying people that come here have the most insane looking self portrait avatars? :butt: :axe: :rotflmao: Solitary
elaborate please.. it's nice to know who you're looking at. Some of the most annoying people that come here have the most inane looking avatars. What with the childish emoticons anyway.. stupid!
Quote from: Moralnihilist on August 07, 2014, 11:14:20 AM
Its been done several times. We call this area of the world the Middle East. And last time I checked that area was a shithole.
well you tell me what is the predominant religion in that part of the world then, maybe you'll understand a bit better. We can go further with this one if you so wish. I'd love to get into the Israel/Palestine conflict too, help you understand what is happening there and why it is happening.
Quote from: oliver on August 07, 2014, 12:09:43 PM
well you tell me what is the predominant religion in that part of the world then, maybe you'll understand a bit better. We can go further with this one if you so wish
It's based on the same type of goat herder fairy tales yours is.
Quote from: oliver on August 07, 2014, 12:09:43 PMhelp you understand what is happening there and why it is happening.
Arrogant little fuck, ain't you.
Quote from: Desdinova on August 07, 2014, 12:17:16 PM
It's based on the same type of goat herder fairy tales yours is.
very clever of you
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on August 07, 2014, 12:18:05 PM
Arrogant little fuck, ain't you.
swearing doesn't do it for me.. apologies if I sounded condescending
Quote from: oliver on August 07, 2014, 12:09:43 PM
well you tell me what is the predominant religion in that part of the world then, maybe you'll understand a bit better. We can go further with this one if you so wish. I'd love to get into the Israel/Palestine conflict too, help you understand what is happening there and why it is happening.
No explaining necessary.
Follow the gourd!
No! Follow the sandal!
No! The gourd is the way!
Die infidel!
Quote from: oliver on August 07, 2014, 12:22:13 PM
swearing doesn't do it for me.. apologies if I sounded condescending
Oh lawzy me, I done gonna faint!
:fU: (http://i.imgur.com/xpaNiSl.jpg) (http://imgur.com/xpaNiSl) :pai: :flowers: :blahblah: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :axe: :butt: Solitary
Quote from: oliver on August 07, 2014, 12:09:43 PM
well you tell me what is the predominant religion in that part of the world then, maybe you'll understand a bit better. We can go further with this one if you so wish. I'd love to get into the Israel/Palestine conflict too, help you understand what is happening there and why it is happening.
Since this is your first discussion with me, Ill let your ignorance slide. You could not hope to educate me on the goings on in the Middle East. Not from a military perspective(6 years as a Navy EOD) nor from a historical perspective(PhD in history) nor from a political standpoint(I have cable and watch lots of news).
Now on to the rest of your post...
So what you are saying is that if everyone in the world believed in the same nonsense that you do then the world would be a better place? And would this nonsense be the same lovable group that brought us things like: The Inquisition(something that by the way was only called off during the 1970's), the crusades, witch "trails", and of course my personal favorite the banning of safe sex practices in third world countries plagued by AIDS(lest you think that all the bad crap is in the past)?
Quote from: Moralnihilist on August 07, 2014, 01:39:13 PM
nor from a political standpoint(I have cable and watch lots of news).
That made me laugh.
-Nam
You may know more about the goings-on in the middle East, not disputing that.. but, the media can often distort the truth and often a complex situation can be made very simple to understand, such as the Israel/Hamas conflict. It's a complex situation but in essence it's dead simple but I won't go into that since you don't want to.
It is in the past, we move forward and learn at the same time.. What I'm saying is that if everybody followed the 10 commandments we'd be certainly better off in numerous ways.
The funniest thing about bible thumpers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlaWbCbZhAA
This guy is their figurehead.
Its like seeing an aging porn star trying one last attempt at it, and his dick falling off.
Quote from: oliver on August 07, 2014, 04:44:47 PM
You may know more about the goings-on in the middle East, not disputing that.. but, the media can often distort the truth and often a complex situation can be made very simple to understand, such as the Israel/Hamas conflict. It's a complex situation but in essence it's dead simple but I won't go into that since you don't want to.
If it's so simple, perhaps you should be speaking to someone else?
QuoteIt is in the past, we move forward and learn at the same time.. What I'm saying is that if everybody followed the 10 commandments we'd be certainly better off in numerous ways.
There are actual Christian ruled states out there and they are the most violent of places. There are secular states out there that are quite peaceful.
So, I think that proves you wrong.
-Nam
[/quote]
Quote from: oliver on August 07, 2014, 04:44:47 PM
You may know more about the goings-on in the middle East, not disputing that.. but, the media can often distort the truth and often a complex situation can be made very simple to understand, such as the Israel/Hamas conflict. It's a complex situation but in essence it's dead simple but I won't go into that since you don't want to.
It is in the past, we move forward and learn at the same time.. What I'm saying is that if everybody followed the 10 commandments we'd be certainly better off in numerous ways.
And why, pray hell, do think we want a lecture from you?
I had no idea Check Norris was a drinker of the juice. It's like I've just been roundhoused kicked by Jeebus.
Quote from: Nam on August 07, 2014, 04:49:45 PM
If it's so simple, perhaps you should be speaking to someone else?
There are actual Christian ruled states out there and they are the most violent of places. There are secular states out there that are quite peaceful.
So, I think that proves you wrong.
-Nam
any person or country can say that they're Chrisitian but it won't change anything unless they actively pursue that lifestyle. Christianity doesn't mean that people don't have free will anymore, we live in a world of sin and that's a fact. What I'm saying is that we are guided by the principles as set out in the 10 commandments, as are atheist by the way.
to continue.. we don't become robots if we give our lives to God.. not at all. In fact we become more free in this world.. free from fear and an understanding and purpose for life.. and an afterlife. But we're also guided away from sin, that's not a bad thing in todays world where moral decay is on the up and up
My life became a hell of alot more important and purposeful once I gave up on Jeebus. It was like, I've got one life and that's it. Better make the most of it.
Quote from: Munch on August 07, 2014, 04:47:48 PM
The funniest thing about bible thumpers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlaWbCbZhAA
This guy is their figurehead.
Its like seeing an aging porn star trying one last attempt at it, and his dick falling off.
I like it
Quote from: Desdinova on August 07, 2014, 05:15:00 PM
My life became a hell of alot more important and purposeful once I gave up on Jeebus. It was like, I've got one life and that's it. Better make the most of it.
i also would give up on Jeebus. I have exactly the same sentiment as you
Sure you do.
Quote from: Desdinova on August 07, 2014, 05:23:44 PM
Sure you do.
I live my life pretty much the same as an atheist. what would change? I don't go to Church, atheists don't go to Church. I don't see the devil behind every bush nor do Atheists.
You believe in an invisible Sky-God. I don't.
yes, that is correct. The wind blows, it's invisible but you know it's there, do you beleive in the wind?
11:37.. as fun as it's been, it's been a long busy day
The wind can be detected as you have proved with your hot air. Just like bull shit can be proved by its smell. :fU: Solitary
Quote from: oliver on August 07, 2014, 05:34:24 PM
yes, that is correct. The wind blows, it's invisible but you know it's there, do you beleive in the wind?
Aerodynamics and the study of Air velocity.
Science applies itself to the study of the wind like every other element.
btw, your statement reminded me of this.
(http://images.dangerousminds.net/uploads/images/enhanced-27109-1391576856-1_(1).jpg)
my head hurts from this level of stupidity.
Quote from: oliver on August 07, 2014, 05:34:24 PM
yes, that is correct. The wind blows, it's invisible but you know it's there, do you beleive in the wind?
"Invisible" is a misnomer. Wind is "visible" using other senses and/or tools; it is not imperceptible.
God, on the other hand, is imperceptible. The only* occurrences of communication with God are described as occurring by means which can easily be explained by known neurological phenomena, such as the simulacrum and sleep paralysis.
*Was about to post, but decided I should qualify this with "verifiable." Obviously there are people who claim to have seen God in the flesh, but it's pretty easy in those cases to determine that they're just making shit up.
Also, a blind man can't see the world around him, but he can touch and feel it, does that mean gawd made that possible?
Quote from: oliver on August 07, 2014, 05:09:42 PM
Um...no. Most of the 10 Commandments are about slighting Biblegod, so atheists aren't followers of the 10 Commandments and neither are Christiansâ,,¢. They break all of them ALL THE TIME, they really only have laws for two of them or really, one of them.
So, go preach to someone with less knowledge. Like yourself, in a mirror.
-Nam
Quote from: oliver on August 07, 2014, 05:12:35 PM
to continue.. we don't become robots if we give our lives to God.. not at all. In fact we become more free in this world.. free from fear and an understanding and purpose for life.. and an afterlife. But we're also guided away from sin, that's not a bad thing in todays world where moral decay is on the up and up
Christians are the epitome of fear. Please with your rhetoric. You all are a slave to your religion. You are the definition of drones.
-Nam
Quote from: oliver on August 07, 2014, 04:44:47 PM
You may know more about the goings-on in the middle East, not disputing that.. but, the media can often distort the truth and often a complex situation can be made very simple to understand, such as the Israel/Hamas conflict. It's a complex situation but in essence it's dead simple but I won't go into that since you don't want to.
It is in the past, we move forward and learn at the same time.. What I'm saying is that if everybody followed the 10 commandments we'd be certainly better off in numerous ways.
There was a time where people DID follow the 10 commandments, it was during the middle ages in Europe. The funny thing about the middle ages in Europe, the muslims had an overall better society. Science was allowed to prosper, mathematics flourished, ALL religions were welcome in muslim lands. Where as in christan controlled lands poverty was rampant, education was minimal(and then most often sent off to foreign schools), and lets not forget the whole inquisition thing where in if you didnt follow the right TYPE of delusional thought process you could be charged as a witch or heretic and tortured to death. And of course there was the even more dreaded scarlet letter where in you would be LITERALLY branded a heretic and shunned by the ENTIRE community and would most likely end up dead.
Junior you are playing in my bulwark, you stood no hope of ever winning this conversation. I have historical FACTS to back me up, you merely have delusions.
Quote from: oliver on August 07, 2014, 05:34:24 PM
yes, that is correct. The wind blows, it's invisible but you know it's there, do you beleive in the wind?
You can see the effects of wind, actual evidence of it. There's no evidence for your sky daddy.
-Nam
QuoteThe wind blows, it's invisible but you know it's there, do you beleive in the wind?
The wind actually interacts with this world, unlike your imaginary friend.
Quote from: oliver on August 07, 2014, 04:44:47 PM
It is in the past, we move forward and learn at the same time.. What I'm saying is that if everybody followed the 10 commandments we'd be certainly better off in numerous ways.
Its the idea of how you think right and wrong must be dictated to you (otherwise you might not know what it is) that is unsettling, coupled with the knowledge that rules such as these are probably not all that divine in origin. (For example if there is only one perfect God, why are there so many more or less incompatible belief systems based on that, 30 thousand variations in Christianity alone)
More like they have always been invented by people who do not necessarily have your best interests in mind, and in many cases seek your unwavering loyalty in order to consolidate their own power.
Hows that?
Quote from: oliver on August 07, 2014, 04:44:47 PM
You may know more about the goings-on in the middle East, not disputing that.. but, the media can often distort the truth and often a complex situation can be made very simple to understand, such as the Israel/Hamas conflict. It's a complex situation but in essence it's dead simple but I won't go into that since you don't want to.
It is in the past, we move forward and learn at the same time.. What I'm saying is that if everybody followed the 10 commandments we'd be certainly better off in numerous ways.
*MOD* oliver, if you want to make a case for people needing to follow the 10 commandments, make a thread in the debate section and address your points there. Otherwise, cut out your proselytizing shit.
That is strike 2.
Quote from: oliver on August 07, 2014, 05:34:24 PM
yes, that is correct. The wind blows, it's invisible but you know it's there, do you beleive in the wind?
Wow... I haven't seen that one in a while. Next tell us how you can't see heat.
Quote from: kilodelta on August 07, 2014, 10:22:11 PM
Wow... I haven't seen that one in a while. Next tell us how you can't see heat.
you get my point
Quote from: oliver on August 07, 2014, 05:12:35 PMto continue.. we don't become robots if we give our lives to God.. not at all. In fact we become more free in this world.. free from fear and an understanding and purpose for life.. and an afterlife. But we're also guided away from sin, that's not a bad thing in todays world where moral decay is on the up and up
"Free" so long as you believe the orthodoxy and obey the (mostly batshit) rules. Yeah, I'll pass.
Quote from: Nam on August 07, 2014, 06:37:09 PM
Um...no. Most of the 10 Commandments are about slighting Biblegod, so atheists aren't followers of the 10 Commandments and neither are Christiansâ,,¢. They break all of them ALL THE TIME, they really only have laws for two of them or really, one of them.
So, go preach to someone with less knowledge. Like yourself, in a mirror.
-Nam
you follow those laws, I hope. You should but because you're not beholden to them you do as you please.
I'm not religious.. first understand that. I believe in God because nothing else explains our existence.
Christianity is the only religion that stands out from the rest.
Strike 3? no?
and don't even dare mention Catholicism to me, most corrupt organisation on the planet
Quote from: oliver on August 08, 2014, 04:00:39 AM
you follow those laws, I hope. You should but because you're not beholden to them you do as you please.
QuoteThou shalt have no other gods before me.
While it's true I do not believe in any other gods I also don't believe in Biblegod. So, I doubt I'm actually following this one.
QuoteThou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
I have play-dough figurines that look like Smurfs. It counts. Christians fail this like Jesus on a cross. Get it? Get it?
QuoteThou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
I have bad knees however Christians do nothing but bow down to graven images.
QuoteThou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
Goddamnit!
QuoteRemember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
What day is that? I do work every single day.
QuoteHonour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.
My father told me a few years ago he hated me. He can kiss my ass. You too, by the by.
QuoteThou shalt not kill.
I killed a bug just a bit ago.
QuoteThou shalt not commit adultery.
I had sex with another girl that wasn't my ex-fiancé... my ex-fiancé had sex with her, too.
QuoteThou shalt not steal.
I used to be a thief in my youth. Got arrested for it and everything. Served time. Community service but that 6 months of shooting pool and playing basketball was hard, man.
QuoteThou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
Did that once but that woman was batshit crazy. It was for her own good.
QuoteThou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.
Remember that threesome? It wasn't a threesome...think about it.
However, today I don't steal, and I've never really cheated on any girl I dated, I don't drink, and I obey laws.
But I did break all your precious commandments at one point as has almost every single Christian. Isn't it funny how Christians ignore the over 600 laws in the OT, and dwindled it down to just 10 -- they don't seem like they like being told what to do.
Weird, and ironic since you, and other Christiansâ,,¢ feel the need to have others
follow those laws they rarely do.
-Nam
Quote from: oliver on August 08, 2014, 04:03:13 AM
I'm not religious.. first understand that. I believe in God because nothing else explains our existence.
You are not open to new ideas, you just follow a flock because your to scared to leave it.
Quote from: oliver on August 08, 2014, 04:03:13 AM
I'm religious. first understand that. I believe in God because this can't be it.
FTFY
-Nam
Quote from: oliver on August 08, 2014, 04:04:45 AM
Christianity is the only religion that stands out from the rest.
How so?
-Nam
Quote from: Nam on August 08, 2014, 04:49:05 AM
While it's true I do not believe in any other gods I also don't believe in Biblegod. So, I doubt I'm actually following this one.
I have play-dough figurines that look like Smurfs. It counts. Christians fail this like Jesus on a cross. Get it? Get it?
I have bad knees however Christians do nothing but bow down to graven images.
Goddamnit!
What day is that? I do work every single day.
My father told me a few years ago he hated me. He can kiss my ass. You too, by the by.
I killed a bug just a bit ago.
I had sex with another girl that wasn't my ex-fiancé... my ex-fiancé had sex with her, too.
I used to be a thief in my youth. Got arrested for it and everything. Served time. Community service but that 6 months of shooting pool and playing basketball was hard, man.
Did that once but that woman was batshit crazy. It was for her own good.
Remember that threesome? It wasn't a threesome...think about it.
However, today I don't steal, and I've never really cheated on any girl I dated, I don't drink, and I obey laws.
But I did break all your precious commandments at one point as has almost every single Christian. Isn't it funny how Christians ignore the over 600 laws in the OT, and dwindled it down to just 10 -- they don't seem like they like being told what to do.
Weird, and ironic since you, and other Christiansâ,,¢ feel the need to have others follow those laws they rarely do.
-Nam
just pointing out that we folllow the same laws but I'm not allowed to discuss that here remember
And those laws aren't original with your camel-jockey club, the predate them quite a bit.
There's nothing new or original in the Babble.
Quote from: oliver on August 08, 2014, 04:05:06 AM
Strike 3? no?
Yeah. Strike 3. But I'll let you stay for chew toy purposes for at least a little while.
Sent from your mom
Quote from: oliver on August 08, 2014, 04:12:44 AM
and don't even dare mention Catholicism to me, most corrupt organisation on the planet
Annnnd yet you suggest that people follow the 10 commandments(a catlick creation that the rest of christinsanity stole from them[granted they stole it from other religions first]).
Anyone else find it humorous that this bonehead offered to explain something to me?
Quote from: Moralnihilist on August 08, 2014, 09:09:07 AM
Annnnd yet you suggest that people follow the 10 commandments(a catlick creation that the rest of christinsanity stole from them[granted they stole it from other religions first]).
Anyone else find it humorous that this bonehead offered to explain something to me?
I suggest you change your name first before commenting on anything further. I don't know about catlick creation or what you're on about.. or what you're on even but you seem confused. You people are something else.
STRIKE 4
Quote from: oliver on August 08, 2014, 10:03:56 AM
I suggest you change your name first before commenting on anything further. I don't know about catlick creation or what you're on about.. or what you're on even but you seem confused. You people are something else.
STRIKE 4
And I suggest that you pull your head out of your ass and stop intentionally being retarded.
Quote from: oliver on August 08, 2014, 01:24:19 AM
you get my point
I get that you don't understand measurement. Wind can be measured. Most people's definition of a god cannot.
Quote from: oliver on August 08, 2014, 06:26:05 AM
just pointing out that we folllow the same laws but I'm not allowed to discuss that here remember
If I am discussing it with you then you can discuss it; if the mods interfere in the debate then they're idiots. But seeing how they're probably not idiots, discuss away.
Right now I feel you're dodging my answers and using the mods as the excuse; that makes you the idiot, and a liar.
-Nam
Quote from: oliver on August 08, 2014, 04:04:45 AM
Christianity is the only religion that stands out from the rest.
There is no such religion as Christianity. The only Christian to ever live died approximately 1900 years ago, because Paul is the one who made this shit up to begin with. Ever since then, it's been nothing but division, disagreement, and persecution for said divisions and disagreements.
If your reaction to that statement is to still think, "Well yes, but my brand of religion is the only
true Christianity out there," you are just as much of a dumb sheep as the rest.
Quote from: oliver on August 08, 2014, 04:03:13 AM
I'm not religious.. first understand that. I believe in God because nothing else explains our existence.
Oliver, to say "I don't know, therefore God", is ignorant. It is the type of thinking that primitive man used. You seem like a fairly smart guy. Why is it that you cannot look at things from a scientific and unbiased standpoint? You claim that you follow Christianity because it is the one that stands out to you. But it is manmade. You want to believe in a higher power? That's fine, go right ahead. Believe in the "Force" or some alien race. But don't think you need to follow a set of rules written by some goat herding desert nomads thousands of years ago. Just use your basic moral and ethical senses to tell you right from wrong. Does the ten commandments address rape? Or slavery? Are those OK?
Lol I'm actually enjoying you keeping score, Oliver . Its like you know you're talking out of your ass.
Sent from your mom
Quote from: PickelledEggs on August 08, 2014, 01:15:16 PM
Lol I'm actually enjoying you keeping score, Oliver . Its like you know you're talking out of your ass.
Sent from your mom
The irony is: he wants us to follow the 10 commandments yet he can't seem to follow the rules of this website; which is my point above.
-Nam
Quote from: Nam on August 08, 2014, 01:24:40 PM
The irony is: he wants us to follow the 10 commandments yet he can't seem to follow the rules of this website; which is my point above.
-Nam
:lol: You complained that I shoved bigdavebear in the troll-cage and now your complaining about oliver not being shoved in the troll cage? Make up your mind!!! :lol:
Quote from: PickelledEggs on August 08, 2014, 09:16:18 PM
:lol: You complained that I shoved bigdavebear in the troll-cage and now your complaining about oliver not being shoved in the troll cage? Make up your mind!!! :lol:
Christians acting like Christians don't belong in trollville. They belong out here where everyone viewing this website (member or nonmember) can read the ridiculous things they say.
Actual trolls belong in trollville.
-Nam
Quote from: Nam on August 08, 2014, 09:31:04 PM
Christians acting like Christians don't belong in trollville. They belong out here where everyone viewing this website (member or nonmember) can read the ridiculous things they say.
Actual trolls belong in trollville.
-Nam
Yeah. Reason being why bigdavebear is in purgatory.
Technically, if we were keeping score on the amount of times he broke the "no proselytizing" rule, he'd be way past strike 10. But at this point, who cares... :lol:
Free-range theists are so much more tasty than cage-raised theists. (as long as they aren't complete dicks and spammy)
Quote from: oliver on August 08, 2014, 10:03:56 AM
I suggest you change your name first before commenting on anything further. I don't know about catlick creation or what you're on about.. or what you're on even but you seem confused. You people are something else.
STRIKE 4
And now please fuck right off.
He's not free range, he's deranged, and probably phatt matt or another idiot. :axe: Solitary
Quote from: Solitary on August 09, 2014, 04:28:55 PM
He's not free range, he's deranged, and probably phatt matt or another idiot. :axe: Solitary
He registered November of last year. If oliver IS phattmatt, he has been lurking around for a VERY long time.
Quote from: PickelledEggs on August 09, 2014, 04:37:56 PM
He registered November of last year. If oliver IS phattmatt, he has been lurking around for a VERY long time.
is there no way to check phattmatt and oliver's IP code and see if it matches. I only suggest it because years ago I got banned on a wow forum for starting a religious debate against muslim extremism which was not permitted, tried to make another account, but got banned again when they discovered my IP was the same. I learned that one the hard way.
Quote from: Munch on August 09, 2014, 04:58:45 PM
is there no way to check phattmatt and oliver's IP code and see if it matches. I only suggest it because years ago I got banned on a wow forum for starting a religious debate against muslim extremism which was not permitted, tried to make another account, but got banned again when they discovered my IP was the same. I learned that one the hard way.
As /b/ says, "Use a proxy? I used SEVEN!"
Quote from: PickelledEggs on August 09, 2014, 04:37:56 PM
He registered November of last year. If oliver IS phattmatt, he has been lurking around for a VERY long time.
Matt did imply he had accounts that weren't banned yet, so it's quite possible he set up accounts from time to time just for when he made his move.
If nothing else besides pathetic, it at least shows some dedication. Delusional, pathetic dedication but minor props for trying. And since he trolls other forums it's quite possible he is like... that mob-whatever Quebec guy... that bothered atheist communities for years.
Always some weirdo or another out there...
QuoteAs /b/ says, "Use a proxy? I used SEVEN!"
Pretty much this. There is always a way around a ban so long as you are patient and resourceful. Technology is not very air-tight.
I've never been very technically savvy ^^
Oliver kind of reminds me of Eve in a way.... In her pre-rampage phase. He gives off the impression that he's dumb as a post, but at least he's nice about it.
Phattmatt may very well have many accts on here that just are for lurking. He did say that he did, and I've had my suspicions about it even before I was a mod.
Phattmatt is smart, but we have been learning his tricks as he throws them at us.
Sent from your mom
Can I just ask, since I've probably missed where its said it, but on average how many accounts are active on AF?
Actually you guys bring up some good points.. I suppose I could become an Atheist.. we're all searching for something.. right?
I am open to new ideas, it's the religious die-hards that are difficult to get through to.. I guess I do tend towards Atheism more and more in light of what religion has done to the world.
and no I'm not phattmat, just to clear that up
Quote from: oliver on August 14, 2014, 03:58:39 AM
Actually you guys bring up some good points.. I suppose I could become an Atheist.. we're all searching for something.. right?
I think becoming
anything because you're "searching" is the wrong reason. Remember, atheism is one position on one issue. You cannot build an entire worldview around one issue.
I (briefly) made a similar mistake as a teen. I was already an atheist at that point, but I was "searching." I eventually ran across the works of Anton LaVey, and decided to go along with it since it was an "atheist religion." After about a year I figured out that Satanism was completely psychobonkers, but in the meantime I came very close to destroying a lot of friendships over my new pet religion. It's not something I look back at with pride.
I'm currently a Secular Humanist; not because I picked it as a new pet ideology, but because I agree with its central philosophy. I used that philosophy to, among other things, rebuild my moral compass from the ground up. Any time I find something in that moral compass that's left over from my upbringing, I question it, and I try to decide if it's worth keeping. If I can't decide, I try to get better informed so that I can come back to the issue; often through research, but sometimes through classes.
"Ground-Up Morality," as I like to call it, tends to be completely alien to a lot of theists I talk to. Unlike "Top-Down Morality," there is no god whose teachings it will ever agree with. Indeed, many conclusions reached by TDM are either contradicted by GUM, or ignored altogether. To some groups, it might sound like just an excuse to commit acts of sin as such. If you envision these two moral systems as pyramids, though, it makes a lot more sense.
TDM is like an upside-down pyramid. It covers a lot of subject matter at the top, but there really isn't much on the bottom to support it. The conclusions it reaches are juicy targets for questioning, and the only thing keeping the pyramid from tipping over is the apologists who rush in to right it again; though the apologists themselves might say that the hand of an almighty being actively prevents the pyramid's fall anyhow. GUM, on the other hand, is just a plain old pyramid. Compared to TDM, there really isn't a whole heck of a lot of stuff at the top; but what
is there is in very little danger of ever failing, because there's so much to hold it up that this morality pyramid is more than capable of standing on its own.
GUM can be mistaken for the Golden Rule (which, contrary to popular belief, did
not originate from Jesus, but rather Confucius), but there are some key differences. To start with, the actual words "treat others as you wish to be treated" will never be found in a GUM system; in fact a true GUM starts with "how I want to be treated" and "how others want to be treated" as two separate concepts, and they typically don't intersect until you actually reach your conclusion(s). Second, any GUM system
has to apply that second part in a selfish manner in order to make any sense. (In contrast to the Golden Rule, which has you apply it for no reason other than it's how
you would want to be treated. Sounds good, but it's actually quite weak as an argument.) The reason for this, of course, is that
everything must be justified from the ground up. These concepts, for example, are drawn from basic, biological survival needs, which is about the lowest ground you could possibly build up from. (Again, contrast to the Golden Rule, which tries to support a concept with a concept: sounds good, but very weak as an argument.)
So if you want an example, any moral conclusions drawn from "how others want to be treated" ultimately has to come from a survival perspective: "How is this going to affect
me?" As a pack animal who will ultimately be driven by instinct to form social bonds during encounters with other members of your species, particularly with relatives, another question you have to resolve is, "How is this going to affect
me and mine?" So in the end, how you treat other people is going to be determined by how you believe they will react. Many conclusions, such as "do not steal" and "do not murder" can be reached through this method; but of course, you're not using
one method to arrive at them. Starting from "how I wish to be treated" will bring you to the same conclusions, reinforcing them, but not actually crossing over with that other chain of logic. Now you have two conclusions, each being doubly reinforced. Of course, these two angles we just used to approach those conclusions are not the only two you can use; in my case, personally, I think I have at least a couple dozen chains of logic anchoring these conclusions alone. We'll leave that discussion for another time, though.
What I hope I've gotten across with this is that I'm not an atheist, agnostic, Secular Humanist, or whatever else just for shits and giggles. I didn't arrive at this position by "searching." I did some serious research and a lot of serious thought to get where I am today. And you know what? I'm not finished. I will never be finished, and I'm not even sure if I want to be finished. The combination of external and internal discovery that constructing, knocking down, rebuilding, and reinforcing this moral pyramid keeps me sharp; staying sharp keeps up my mental wellbeing; my mental wellbeing is one of the basic imperatives of my moral pyramid. Therefore, I have a moral obligation to never stop doing this. Oh, hey, look what I did there. Hehe.
Good golly that was long-winded of me, I apologize. I don't usually do the wall-of-text thing.
Quote from: oliver on August 14, 2014, 03:58:39 AM
Actually you guys bring up some good points.. I suppose I could become an Atheist.. we're all searching for something.. right?
I'm searching for my car keys...
Sent from your mom
Interesting post by Hijiri Byakuren. I don't have the time to read through it now but will do later. Thanks for your input here.
I've never known a single story of athiests trying to force feed their beliefs on people, unlike organised religions do, so nobody here is going to force how we see the world on others.
That doesn't mean we don't express how we see the world in vigorous ways, but theres the difference, you won't hear stories of abusive fathers hitting there 5 year old sons for 'taking the lawds name in vain'.
Quote from: oliver on August 14, 2014, 04:04:26 AMI am open to new ideas, it's the religious die-hards that are difficult to get through to.. I guess I do tend towards Atheism more and more in light of what religion has done to the world.
That's actually a terrible starting point. Being an atheist in reaction to religious people's bad behavior makes no more sense than being a heliocentrist because of geocentrists' bad behavior. It's just not relevant and should your impression of religious people change, there goes your entire position. Instead, atheists typically start from skepticism regarding supernatural claims.
Also, I gotta second what Hijiri Byakuren said.
Quote from: Hydra009 on August 14, 2014, 05:18:40 PM
That's actually a terrible starting point. Being an atheist in reaction to religious people's bad behavior makes no more sense than being a heliocentrist because of geocentrists' bad behavior. It's just not relevant and should your impression of religious people change, there goes your entire position. Instead, atheists typically start from skepticism regarding supernatural claims.
Also, I gotta second what Hijiri Byakuren said.
It is hard to rid oneself of a belief which is embedded in our thinking. Because of certain convictions and experiences I've had it is going to take a lot of analysing. It will take time though
Quote from: oliver on August 14, 2014, 03:58:39 AM
Actually you guys bring up some good points.. I suppose I could become an Atheist.. we're all searching for something.. right?
Quote from: oliver on August 14, 2014, 04:04:26 AM
I am open to new ideas, it's the religious die-hards that are difficult to get through to.. I guess I do tend towards Atheism more and more in light of what religion has done to the world.
Now he wants us to think he may be starting to come round to our way of thinking , no fuckin way Oliver, your well sussed !!
Quote from: oliver on August 15, 2014, 04:14:59 AM
It is hard to rid oneself of a belief which is embedded in our thinking. Because of certain convictions and experiences I've had it is going to take a lot of analysing. It will take time though
Take it. Seriously, take the time to analyze. We don't pretend this is easy.
Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on August 15, 2014, 07:52:20 PM
Take it. Seriously, take the time to analyze. We don't pretend this is easy.
Indeed.
An analytically mind does not close itself to a set rule of ideals, it keeps asking the questions of why things are the way they are, where is it going, how does it serve our interests. The smartest men in mankinds history found answers to the universe because they asked questions everyone else was to afraid to ask.
Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on August 15, 2014, 07:52:20 PM
Take it. Seriously, take the time to analyze. We don't pretend this is easy.
I third this. (Munch already second-ed it sort of)
Sent from your mom
Quote from: oliver on August 15, 2014, 04:14:59 AM
It is hard to rid oneself of a belief which is embedded in our thinking. Because of certain convictions and experiences I've had it is going to take a lot of analysing. It will take time though
Yeah, thinking rationally is such a pain in the ass. I advocate not thinking at all. That way we have more time to waste on senseless activities that we really enjoy.
Suppose I should thank all and sundry for playing their part in my new belief system, or rather lack of belief. I take back any harsh things that may have been said by me. Literally woke up on Monday morning as an Atheist, it's a great feeling to say the least.
Quote from: oliver on August 22, 2014, 01:32:29 PM
Suppose I should thank all and sundry for playing their part in my new belief system, or rather lack of belief. I take back any harsh things that may have been said by me. Literally woke up on Monday morning as an Atheist, it's a great feeling to say the least.
Oh? Care to share what changed your mind?
Your forgive me for being blunt, but given it took some people years to become atheists, like the rhetoric your told to believe in chipped away until you realize its all bunk, so how do you go from one mindset to another overnight? I've seen guys on forums say that before that they stopped believing in faith and are now atheists, but then a week later are right back to being faith followers again.
I think we are all a little skeptical of your epiphany, Oliver.
I believe its just a test of time, its always nice hearing someone open up to being atheist, that they can be enlightened as such, but we're just have to wait and see I guess, I'm always prepared to give someone a chance.