Hello, and thank you for reading! Please allow me to begin by saying that I am a Christian. It would take an act of divine revelation to change that. Even so, I have seen a lot of excellent points and well-considered opinions on this forum, which is why I am here. So why am I here? The twain are not mutually exclusive.
I am here because there is no shortage of idiocy on either side of the religious fence. For every passage-pruning, preening parochial puissant there is an arrogant, avant-garde, atheist admonisher. I see little difference between the two. I see humans competing for dominance. I would rather hear some sensible arguments that I might use to curb the religious fanaticism of my peers without offending them. Naturally, this does not extend to the mocking, self-righteous new religion asserting that God cannot be proven. I am as keenly aware of the absence of proof as I am the existence of it, and I don't need a cleric to educate me as to all the ways I have sinned in a world with God or without.
Mostly, I am interested in the personal views of atheists and even the faithful who have ended up here. There is little point in speculating about a higher order or lack thereof if one cannot discern what it is made of. So when I show up challenging your faith or lack of it, please know that it is done in the spirit of greater understanding, not malice.
That said, I leave all here with a simple question, to test faithful of any kind. What is the one observable law of the universe?
Welcome. Don't try to drag me screaming and kicking to the pearly gates and I won't try to get you so drunk you'll bound for fire, smoke, torture and eternal torment because you slipped up right before you got robbed and killed for the 10 dollar Walmart watch. :-D
Be aware there are some here who are real religion haters here and who will try to drag you down as far as possible. That's not to say i give one rats ass about what you think or believe because I don't, but you're here and so far pretty straight up about your interest which seems fair enough. I've never had much use for silly superstitious nonsense so fire away and above all have a thick skin. We're real pricks at times except me.. I'm always nice to everyone. :-$
By the way. Unless you're actually god himself don't be blessing me. I didn't give you permission.
Quote from: "Corporal Cross"What is the one observable law of the universe?
That is the absolute least thought out question I have heard all day.
Do me a favor. Google "scientific law" (i'm guessing that is what you mean by law of the universe) Anything that is a scientific law is so because it is observable. You're a big boy (girl?) now. You can do some of the work.
Other than that... welcome.
Quote from: "PickelledEggs"Quote from: "Corporal Cross"What is the one observable law of the universe?
That is the absolute least thought out question I have heard all day.
Do me a favor. Google "scientific law" (i'm guessing that is what you mean by law of the universe) Anything that is a scientific law is so because it is observable. You're a big boy (girl?) now. You can do some of the work.
Other than that... welcome.
Well, it's big yanno.
Oh yeah, that's sorta observable too. Never mind. :)
QuotePlease allow me to begin by saying that I am a Christian. It would take an act of divine revelation to change that.
Well that means there's at least one place you'll never up in :P
QuoteWhat is the one observable law of the universe?
There's more than one law of the universe as far as we know, so saying "the one" merely means you have some kind of bias of one over the others.
Also, welcome aboard.
You must have missed the 11th C
Thou shalt not post and your first time and make others await your response.
Quote from: "Corporal Cross"Hello, and thank you for reading! Please allow me to begin by saying that I am a Christian. It would take an act of divine revelation to change that. Even so, I have seen a lot of excellent points and well-considered opinions on this forum, which is why I am here. So why am I here? The twain are not mutually exclusive.
Welcome to the forums. :)
I'm assuming you don't mean the divine revelation part literally, it would be rather circular to require a signal from a god to prove to yourself that a god did not exist!
Quote from: "Corporal Cross"I am here because there is no shortage of idiocy on either side of the religious fence. For every passage-pruning, preening parochial puissant there is an arrogant, avant-garde, atheist admonisher. I see little difference between the two. I see humans competing for dominance.
I don't agree because you are painting a picture where idiotic theists and idiotic atheists are equally numbered by use of your term "For every...". This is not true from my experience.
Quote from: "Corporal Cross"I would rather hear some sensible arguments that I might use to curb the religious fanaticism of my peers without offending them. Naturally, this does not extend to the mocking, self-righteous new religion asserting that God cannot be proven.
Atheism is not a religion. A religion is (loosely) a set of beliefs in the supernatural, perhaps tied together with a set of traditions. It would be true to say that you can define a group of people as "athiest", but it would be muddy language to call this group a religion. Atheism is no more a religion than baldness.
Atheism is not strictly the assertion that a God does not exist. But rather, it is the view that because God has not solidly been defined, that there is no evidence for the existence of a God, and that no convincing logical argument demonstrates the existence of God, to hold a belief in a God is not justified. You do not believe in Zeus for the same reasons that we do not believe in God.
Some atheists
do take it a bit
further and argue that "absense of evidence is evidence of absense". But at the core, atheism is simply non-belief, or a rejection of theist claims.
Quote from: "Corporal Cross"I am as keenly aware of the absence of proof as I am the existence of it, ...
Can you clarify what you mean here?
Quote from: "Corporal Cross"...and I don't need a cleric to educate me as to all the ways I have sinned in a world with God or without.
I don't think sin exists in a world without God? I'm not really sure about that. People can still certainly be assholes, though. ;p
Quote from: "Corporal Cross"Mostly, I am interested in the personal views of atheists and even the faithful who have ended up here. There is little point in speculating about a higher order or lack thereof if one cannot discern what it is made of.
I agree. But do note that if "one cannot discern what it is made of", then can you say you even hold a belief in it? What
are you believing in?
There are plenty of things that I cannot define, so I don't live my life assuming that these things are true. However, a religious person cannot reciprocate this in kind if he doesn't define his god.
Quote from: "Corporal Cross"So when I show up challenging your faith or lack of it, please know that it is done in the spirit of greater understanding, not malice.
Good to know. In return, I assure you there is no malice in my post either. <3
Quote from: "Corporal Cross"That said, I leave all here with a simple question, to test faithful of any kind. What is the one observable law of the universe?
Well, there are quite a few... care to clarify?
Quote from: "AllPurposeAtheist"Quote from: "PickelledEggs"Quote from: "Corporal Cross"What is the one observable law of the universe?
That is the absolute least thought out question I have heard all day.
Do me a favor. Google "scientific law" (i'm guessing that is what you mean by law of the universe) Anything that is a scientific law is so because it is observable. You're a big boy (girl?) now. You can do some of the work.
Other than that... welcome.
Well, it's big yanno.
Oh yeah, that's sorta observable too. Never mind. :)
who is yanno? Is that the guy in the painting from Ghostbusters 2?
Edit: no wait. that is Viggo...
Crap, now I have to show evidence of yanno, the mythical creature most popular as You Know.. his nickname is yanno. [-X
Quote from: "AllPurposeAtheist"Crap, now I have to show evidence of yanno, the mythical creature most popular as You Know.. his nickname is yanno. [-X
Who cares about yanno? He doesn't control a river of pink psycho-active goo. Viggo does. Viggo is the man.
[spoil:3jfksjua]:lol:[/spoil:3jfksjua]
QuoteI don't agree because you are painting a picture where idiotic theists and idiotic atheists are equally numbered by use of your term "For every...". This is not true from my experience.
That's because you live in the US. It certainly holds true in the Netherlands. For every religious idiot here, we have an atheist idiot.
Quote from: "Plu"QuoteI don't agree because you are painting a picture where idiotic theists and idiotic atheists are equally numbered by use of your term "For every...". This is not true from my experience.
That's because you live in the US. It certainly holds true in the Netherlands. For every religious idiot here, we have an atheist idiot.
I thought you said you have a really low percentage of religious people though... or was that La Dolce Vita... Where really the only people that are religious are the farmers and they're in their own little world anyway?
Yeah maybe you can even say we have more atheist idiots than theist idiots. I certainly don't feel like a smaller percentage of the Netherlands is idiots compared to other places; it's just that our idiots are a little more educated and a little less religous about their stupid.
Quote from: "Plu"Yeah maybe you can even say we have more atheist idiots than theist idiots. I certainly don't feel like a smaller percentage of the Netherlands is idiots compared to other places; it's just that our idiots are a little more educated and a little less religous about their stupid.
I wasn't saying that. I was implying, with the 1:1 ratio being the same as the OP said, that you have a lot less religious AND atheist idiots. Leaving the rest regular, intelligent people.
Quote from: "Corporal Cross"there is no shortage of idiocy on either side of the religious fence. For every passage-pruning, preening parochial puissant there is an arrogant, avant-garde, atheist admonisher. I see little difference between the two. I see humans competing for dominance.
On this, we agree wholeheartedly. Kudos for using a word that I had to Google. :)
QuoteWhat is the one observable law of the universe?
Er. There is only one?
IF there is one observable law, it would first, require that everyone be cognizant of the breadth of the universe, and once that is done, that law would simply point out the measure of your insignificance. Your planet is a grain of sand to your galaxy as your galaxy is a grain of sand to the universe.
Grasp the breadth of the universe and you can see why the concept of a god is completely ridiculous and at the same time you can understand the desire for there to be one. Humans started worshipping their images of gods ten thousand years before yours came along. And if you cannot properly comprehend the incredible amount of time that is ten thousand years, you can never grasp 4 billion.
Quite simply, the universe it too large for a god to create humans in order that they worship him. That would require arrogance of epic proportion.
Quote from: "Corporal Cross"What is the one observable law of the universe?
Uhm, changes are constant ... (?)
I don't know what you're fishing for with such a general question, so.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_law)
QuoteA physical law or scientific law, according to the Oxford English dictionary, "is a theoretical principle deduced from particular facts, applicable to a defined group or class of phenomena, and expressible by the statement that a particular phenomenon always occurs if certain conditions be present."[1] Physical laws are typically conclusions based on repeated scientific experiments and observations over many years and which have become accepted universally within the scientific community. The production of a summary description of our environment in the form of such laws is a fundamental aim of science. These terms are not used the same way by all authors.
If by laws you are fishing for some universal constant that includes human beings within it, forget it. Human beings are an invasive species on a planet with a habitable, temperate, oxygen rich atmosphere.
Quote from: "Corporal Cross"What is the one observable law of the universe?
Ladies and gentlemen, it seems we have another Christard who never passed a highschool chemistry class.
Look, I normally don't break out the insults this early, but when you come to a forum full of people who have at least a working understanding of science and then ask us a question that stupid while pretending to know anything about the subject, you're asking for it.
Here are some general guidelines to follow while visiting us on our forum. Read them carefully so you don't get confused:
- Every argument you make about religion is one we have heard a thousand times.
- Most of what you say will be dismissed out of hand. (See above.)
- If we're in a good mood, we'll answer your arguments.
- If you answer our counterpoints by repeating your assertion, we'll make fun of you.
- If you're a good boy and we're feeling exceptionally generous, we might actually take the time to explain our beliefs and the reasoning behind them to you.
- Should you demonstrate the latter point to be a waste of our time, we usually start calling for the banhammer.
- Besides you, we have exactly one theist on the forum at the moment who has not either left or been banned.
Quote from: "Corporal Cross"What is the one observable law of the universe?
People are stupid.
Think about it, if you can.
I'm convinced the OP IS in fact the real YANNO... YANNO come baaaccckkk! :shock:
actually yanno, the OP is safely back at church telling Pastor X, 'I TRIED to get them to listen to me! I really did! I tried reason and well thought out logic till the first guy threatened to KILL me for my holy Walmart watch! They're evil Pastor X!' [-(
Death comes to all living things.
That is a universal truth
What is the one observable law of the universe?
That it is made of protons, neutrons, electrons and morons.
Quote from: "stromboli"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_law
QuoteA physical law or scientific law, according to the Oxford English dictionary, "is a theoretical principle deduced from particular facts, applicable to a defined group or class of phenomena, and expressible by the statement that a particular phenomenon always occurs if certain conditions be present."[1] Physical laws are typically conclusions based on repeated scientific experiments and observations over many years and which have become accepted universally within the scientific community. The production of a summary description of our environment in the form of such laws is a fundamental aim of science. These terms are not used the same way by all authors.
If by laws you are fishing for some universal constant that includes human beings within it, forget it. Human beings are an invasive species on a planet with a habitable, temperate, oxygen rich atmosphere.
For at least a little while longer.
As opposed to an oxygen deficient atmosphere. :-D
Quote from: "Corporal Cross"What is the one observable law of the universe?
Don't piss into the wind? Or is it don't pull the mask off that old Lone Ranger?
Quote from: "PopeyesPappy"Quote from: "Corporal Cross"What is the one observable law of the universe?
Don't piss into the wind? Or is it don't pull the mask off that old Lone Ranger?
I think it's either "Lord loves a workin' man" or "Don't trust whitey". I can't remember which.
Quote from: "PopeyesPappy"Quote from: "Corporal Cross"What is the one observable law of the universe?
Don't piss into the wind? Or is it don't pull the mask off that old Lone Ranger?
You don't mess around with Jim.
You don't tug on superman's cape.
"God Bless You!"
Which god? the only god that I knew was Allah and it's an asshole bigot jerk. :-&
I thought Yanno was a Greek new-age keyboardist. :-k
Welcome! You will find that this community is one that prides itself in logical deduction...something that cannot be applied to God (or truth) because he is unpersonalized, irrational and justly weighed in form. I'd love to discuss religious beliefs with you if you ever want to! The faith is strong and every faith is welcome to this forum (or should be) :). Personally I am a Muslim (one who submits to god)...not a Muslim confined to the Islamic religion, but someone who believes in the unification of god throughout faith. To me each prophet is a messenger in the divine lineage (seal of the prophets)..they all spoke manifest word...To me god is literally Knowledge itself and his blessedness resides in his eternal timeless realm..I read from the Quran, Book of Certitude, Book of Urantia, Most Holy Book and the Bible (when i need to). I'd love to hear about your outlook on god and religion and I Hope you enjoy your visit :) and God bless you as well.
Quote from: "Indiscriminalist"I thought Yanno was a Greek new-age keyboardist. :-k
An awesome one at it too!
QuoteWhat is the one observable law of the universe
I wonder if he/she/it is going to tell us the answer......
tide comes in, can't explain that?
My thanks to all for the welcome. It's hardly been a day and already I am enjoying the responses. Well, mostly. I had hoped for a proper answer to my question, but the significance of it seems to be lost here. If there was one thing I did not expect to run into on an atheist forum, it was a dearth of Dawkins fans. He is, after all, the author of The Selfish Gene and a prominent figure in the history of atheism. I just sort of assumed that when I asked what the one observable law of the universe was, it would be very evident, akin to asking a room full of libertarians what taxation is or asking communists about the cause of all social ills.
So far, the only person with anything resembling the correct answer is moralnihilist, though in what I hope is not an emo fashion. The answer is entropy. Entropy is the one observable law of the cosmos. All things ordered proceed to disorder. It's not the speed of light in a vacuum or anything like that. That's all relative, but entropy is a constant. Or is someone aware of a self-sustaining source of matter? Energy?
Now, why do I ask such questions? Well, this is the place for introductions, is it not? Clearly, just coming out and saying I'm a Christian generates all manner of responses, some of which say a great deal about the people who worded them. Manodo wisely observes that atheism is not a religion, but all evidence to the contrary. Some people here behave exactly as though they were part of one in the presence of a heathen. Food for thought, were I capable of such. Dawkins would find it interesting.
I am more interested in the truth of matters. I've already told you what I am here for. If anything, I should be considered an ally in some people's imaginary war against the ignorance of religion. I am faithful, but I am not so much a fool that I ignore the universe around me. It vexes me that so many of the people I would call brothers and sisters in faith cannot see past that which they are told to believe, and simply pointing out that the bible is mathematically flawed does little to dampen their extremely literal and often selective interpretations.
It concerns me not one whit that most of the members here are atheists of some type or another. Live your life as you choose, and I shall do the same. If that involves praying for you or asking God to bless you, deal with it. There is no harm done in practicing my religion, unless we're willing to try crimes of thought as per an inquisitorial edict. I offer only a fair trade. From me, you can get some perspective on the views of the faithful, and from you lot, I can hopefully glean some more arguments to use against those who shine with so much faith that it blinds them.
I'm not here to convert you, though all are welcome. If I sell you anything, it will be a new appreciation for the world you live in, which is nothing less than divine if you look at it the right way. Dawkins made a believer out of me, despite being an atheist himself, and he was wise enough to not discount the presence of a God. There is an order to the world that is not readily apparent to people who pray to the unseen or cast aside the notion of design simply because they cannot see it.
The order is, of course, order itself. Some people look at the world and see chaos. I see more people, more high forms of life, creating ever more miraculous things. Or did that change when I wasn't looking? Is humanity on its way to destruction due to religion? How about anything else? Speculate as you will, Christianity owns the world. Well, the first world, anyway. Mayhap there is something to learn from the example. Maybe assuming that you are of superior intellect just because you spit on people with faith is not the enlightened thing you believe it to be. Locke certainly didn't endorse that, and it is to him you primarily owe your faith.
Anyhow, I look forward to the intelligent discussion I have seen glimpses of here. Those of you who think me easy prey because I call Jesus my savior are in for a nasty surprise. I am not here to beggar your pathetic attempts at insult. At least the faithful challenge me with scripture, however convenient and contradicted. Those of you who cannot quote your own scripture might as well shove off. I did not come all this way to entertain the opinions of every idiot left of the bell-curve who assumes that they are somehow correct in assumption of things they know nothing about. The faith has its share of those, and so does the big-bang theory. Neither are of any more interest than tirelessly worn books of Goodall's.
But enough of that. This is the place for introductions and welcomes. I've told you who I am, why I think the way I do. You know me now. It is my earnest hope that I will come to know you, to see the world through different eyes. Is that so wrong? Careful, you might find yourself thinking like a Christian before long :p
QuoteI'm not here to convert you,
You would be unable.
95% of us grew up reading the babble and getting fed the crap. The only difference is we recognized it and you have yet to.
Quote from: "Corporal Cross"[bullshit]
I'm impressed that in so many paragraphs you managed to say absolutely nothing.
:-D Welcome aboard Corporal Cross! The rule of the universe is that every living thing dies. And all the tears and fears and imaginary magical thinking will change that. :shock: 8-) Solitary
Quote from: "Hijiri Byakuren"Quote from: "Corporal Cross"[bullshit]
I'm impressed that in so many paragraphs you managed to say absolutely nothing.
why does hijiri always get the good lines?
And please understand that we really don't need your opinion or viewpoint on anything. Several of us here came out of religious backgrounds. Everything you can potentially bring has been brought numerous times. You come here for your own reasons, but don't think anything you do will enlighten us in any way.
Quote from: "Hijiri Byakuren"Quote from: "Corporal Cross"[bullshit]
I'm impressed that in so many paragraphs you managed to say absolutely nothing.
I'm impressed that in one sentence you managed to sum up all his paragraphs.
Quote from: "hrdlr110"Quote from: "Hijiri Byakuren"Quote from: "Corporal Cross"[bullshit]
I'm impressed that in so many paragraphs you managed to say absolutely nothing.
I'm impressed that in one sentence you managed to sum up all his paragraphs.
My father taught me everything he knew about business writing. The whole point is to convey the maximum meaning with the minimum verbosity. Theists give me lots of good practice with it. :)
Morality is separating good from bad...or truth from false...but since truth is too vast...there is no true concrete morality in this life. The only thing humans know how to do truthfully is to spread knowledge (god) good or bad. The best we can do is get as close as we can..and the worst we can do is keep our distance.
The only quest for truth is the quest for love, faith, and unity and the spread of god..not to prove him but to further him
Truth is false, while false is true.
"The existence of God can never be proved by scientific experiment or by the pure reason of logical deduction. God can be realized only in the realms of human experience; nevertheless, the true concept of the reality of God is reasonable to logic, plausible to philosophy, essential to religion, and indispensable to any hope of personality survival.
Those who know God have experienced the fact of his presence; such God-knowing mortals hold in their personal experience the only positive proof of the existence of the living God which one human being can offer to another. The existence of God is utterly beyond all possibility of demonstration except for the contact between the God-consciousness of the human mind and the God-presence of the Thought Adjuster that indwells the mortal intellect and is bestowed upon man as the free gift of the Universal Father."
This is how i perceive things to be
Quote from: "MitchellDaBomb"Morality is separating good from bad...or truth from false...but since truth is too vast...there is no true concrete morality in this life. The only thing humans know how to do truthfully is to spread knowledge (god) good or bad. The best we can do is get as close as we can..and the worst we can do is keep our distance.
The only quest for truth is the quest for love, faith, and unity and the spread of god..not to prove him but to further him
Truth is false, while false is true.
"The existence of God can never be proved by scientific experiment or by the pure reason of logical deduction. God can be realized only in the realms of human experience; nevertheless, the true concept of the reality of God is reasonable to logic, plausible to philosophy, essential to religion, and indispensable to any hope of personality survival.
Those who know God have experienced the fact of his presence; such God-knowing mortals hold in their personal experience the only positive proof of the existence of the living God which one human being can offer to another. The existence of God is utterly beyond all possibility of demonstration except for the contact between the God-consciousness of the human mind and the God-presence of the Thought Adjuster that indwells the mortal intellect and is bestowed upon man as the free gift of the Universal Father."
This is how i perceive things to be
Morality is nothing more that societal norms. Morality differs depending on who is in charge(sure they keep some stuff but not all of it).
The rest of this statement is just random babbling of no profound information. No offense but that argument is quite old and tired.
Quote from: "Corporal Cross"My thanks to all for the welcome. It's hardly been a day and already I am enjoying the responses. Well, mostly. I had hoped for a proper answer to my question, but the significance of it seems to be lost here. If there was one thing I did not expect to run into on an atheist forum, it was a dearth of Dawkins fans. He is, after all, the author of The Selfish Gene and a prominent figure in the history of atheism. I just sort of assumed that when I asked what the one observable law of the universe was, it would be very evident, akin to asking a room full of libertarians what taxation is or asking communists about the cause of all social ills.
Well, you cannot chide us if the question you asked was to vague to determine what a valid answer would be. One observable law of the universe is that the electron has an opposite charge to the proton, for example.
Quote from: "Corporal Cross"So far, the only person with anything resembling the correct answer is moralnihilist, though in what I hope is not an emo fashion. The answer is entropy. Entropy is the one observable law of the cosmos. All things ordered proceed to disorder. It's not the speed of light in a vacuum or anything like that. That's all relative, but entropy is a constant. Or is someone aware of a self-sustaining source of matter? Energy?
Why does something being relative not make it an answer to your question?
And to add to that, the speed of light in a vacuum is a constant. The only thing which is relative is the units in which we measure it in. But we can also switch around the units in which we define entropy. So why is the law of entropy any less relative than the speed of light, and therefore a more valid answer?
Quote from: "Corporal Cross"Now, why do I ask such questions? Well, this is the place for introductions, is it not? Clearly, just coming out and saying I'm a Christian generates all manner of responses, some of which say a great deal about the people who worded them. Manodo wisely observes that atheism is not a religion, but all evidence to the contrary. Some people here behave exactly as though they were part of one in the presence of a heathen. Food for thought, were I capable of such. Dawkins would find it interesting.
Well, nice to meet you CC. I'm still not entirely sure what your motive is, but I think it's something along the lines of just seeing how athiests respond to you in general.
Why do you keep mentioning Dawkins?
Quote from: "Corporal Cross"I am more interested in the truth of matters. I've already told you what I am here for. If anything, I should be considered an ally in some people's imaginary war against the ignorance of religion. I am faithful, but I am not so much a fool that I ignore the universe around me. It vexes me that so many of the people I would call brothers and sisters in faith cannot see past that which they are told to believe, and simply pointing out that the bible is mathematically flawed does little to dampen their extremely literal and often selective interpretations.
I'm glad that you don't ignore the universe around you. : )
But your recognition of the bible being "mathematically flawed" presents you with a problem, one that I'm sure you are aware of. If the people who wrote the bible were wrong about elementary mathematics, how likely are they right to be about everything else?
Quote from: "Corporal Cross"It concerns me not one whit that most of the members here are atheists of some type or another. Live your life as you choose, and I shall do the same. If that involves praying for you or asking God to bless you, deal with it. There is no harm done in practicing my religion, unless we're willing to try crimes of thought as per an inquisitorial edict. I offer only a fair trade. From me, you can get some perspective on the views of the faithful, and from you lot, I can hopefully glean some more arguments to use against those who shine with so much faith that it blinds them.
Alrighty then.
Quote from: "Corporal Cross"I'm not here to convert you, though all are welcome. If I sell you anything, it will be a new appreciation for the world you live in, which is nothing less than divine if you look at it the right way. Dawkins made a believer out of me, despite being an atheist himself, and he was wise enough to not discount the presence of a God. There is an order to the world that is not readily apparent to people who pray to the unseen or cast aside the notion of design simply because they cannot see it.
How did Dawkins make you a believer?
Quote from: "Corporal Cross"The order is, of course, order itself. Some people look at the world and see chaos. I see more people, more high forms of life, creating ever more miraculous things. Or did that change when I wasn't looking? Is humanity on its way to destruction due to religion? How about anything else? Speculate as you will, Christianity owns the world. Well, the first world, anyway. Mayhap there is something to learn from the example. Maybe assuming that you are of superior intellect just because you spit on people with faith is not the enlightened thing you believe it to be. Locke certainly didn't endorse that, and it is to him you primarily owe your faith.
People tend to advance society and technology, I agree. Your usage of the word "miraculous" is suspect here, but I'll assume you mean it poetically rather than literally.
I don't think anyone seriously makes the claim that religion will lead to our own destruction, as that is tantamount to predicting the future. What we
do observe in the here and now is that many advances in science and ethics are held back due to religious reasons.
Christians represent a large population of the first world (I'll assume this is what you mean by "own"), so what? Do white people own first the world too?
I don't know any athiests who assume to have a superior intellect. You don't require much intelligence to simply not believe in something.
And I have never read the works of Locke, so I don't owe him squat.
Quote from: "Corporal Cross"Anyhow, I look forward to the intelligent discussion I have seen glimpses of here. Those of you who think me easy prey because I call Jesus my savior are in for a nasty surprise. I am not here to beggar your pathetic attempts at insult. At least the faithful challenge me with scripture, however convenient and contradicted. Those of you who cannot quote your own scripture might as well shove off. I did not come all this way to entertain the opinions of every idiot left of the bell-curve who assumes that they are somehow correct in assumption of things they know nothing about. The faith has its share of those, and so does the big-bang theory. Neither are of any more interest than tirelessly worn books of Goodall's.
But enough of that. This is the place for introductions and welcomes. I've told you who I am, why I think the way I do. You know me now. It is my earnest hope that I will come to know you, to see the world through different eyes. Is that so wrong? Careful, you might find yourself thinking like a Christian before long :p
Okey doke, welcome.
I'm not even going to try to organize my thoughts for this one. Not worth the energy.
-My universal truth is that there is no god. I will not even give it the courtesy of capitalization.
-Why do all Theists assume ALL Atheists worship Dawkins? Good yes but eh...I prefer a good dose of Hitchen's over the others. Much more aggressive in my opinion.
-I can, will, and do reserve the right to get upset to varying degrees at people who "Pray for me." or "Pray for my soul.". You can stick your "prayers" for me up your ...., in fact you can stick all your prayers there, where they may have a better chance of being heard. Do not include me in your delusion please.
I find it to be a very offensive statement really, one may as well call my mother a whore and I do not shy away from stating as much in real life, or the internet.
-Perhaps another universal truth is that there is NO peaceful or benign religion. They are ALL evil and dangerous. Even some 3rd world made up b.s. that may have never hurt a living orgasm as far as I am concerned.
They all teach ignorance and promote stupidity, so despite any claim to being peaceful, they are, in fact, evil and dangerous.
Someone posted a joke graph earlier that basically stated "We would probably already be exploring the galaxy if not for Christianity.". Thing is, to me, it is no joke, but sad reality and not just Christianity, ALL religions.
They hold humanity back from knowing what it is truly capable of, not just scientifically but in all areas.
If humanity hadn't been suckered into this ridiculous idea of religion it would probably have had the common sense and decency to outlaw it.
However, I do enjoy having Theists around. Although the degree to which I will debate/argue with them is directly proportional to their own presentation.
Quote from: "Moriarty"Someone posted a joke graph earlier that basically stated "We would probably already be exploring the galaxy if not for Christianity."
Alternatively we could still be sacrificing animals to idols in temples, appeasing the rain god and consulting auguries with an iron age level of technology. Science and an understanding of the natural world developed from religion.
Quote from: "Passion of Christ"Quote from: "Moriarty"Someone posted a joke graph earlier that basically stated "We would probably already be exploring the galaxy if not for Christianity."
Alternatively we could still be sacrificing animals to idols in temples, appeasing the rain god and consulting auguries with an iron age level of technology. Science and an understanding of the natural world developed from religion.
Tell that to Giordano Bruno and all the "witches" who were burned at the stake.
Quote from: "Sal1981"Quote from: "Passion of Christ"Tell that to Giordano Bruno and all the "witches" who were burned at the stake.
You have about 40,000 witches burned at the stake over 300 years (Jesus didn't particularly insist that anyone should do this) and 90+ million people killed by secular/atheist Communist governments in 100 years just for a comparison.
Quote from: "Passion of Christ"Quote from: "Sal1981"Quote from: "Passion of Christ"Tell that to Giordano Bruno and all the "witches" who were burned at the stake.
You have about 40,000 witches burned at the stake over 300 years (Jesus didn't particularly insist that anyone should do this) and 90+ million people killed by secular/atheist Communist governments in 100 years just for a comparison.
Oh please, you want a pissing contest over semantics? Guess who Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot modeled their governments after; you'll be surprised.
Quote from: "Passion of Christ"Quote from: "Moriarty"Someone posted a joke graph earlier that basically stated "We would probably already be exploring the galaxy if not for Christianity."
Alternatively we could still be sacrificing animals to idols in temples, appeasing the rain god and consulting auguries with an iron age level of technology. Science and an understanding of the natural world developed from religion.
Oh, don't get me wrong, all religions are equally responsible for we are not.
Quote from: "Sal1981"Oh please, you want a pissing contest over semantics? Guess who Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot modeled their governments after; you'll be surprised.
I don't think they modeled them on the teachings of Jesus Christ and loving your enemy, turning the other cheek and caring for the oppressed and needy. Many Christian nations didn't particularly either but at least they were supposed to do in theory. Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot were supposed to decide whatever was right was right seeing as they had all the supreme authority to decide everything for themselves for everyone, something they very much liked about the atheism deal.
QuoteI don't think they modeled them on the teachings of Jesus Christ and loving your enemy, turning the other cheek and caring for the oppressed and needy
There hasn't been a nation in the history of the world modeled on that.
Quote from: "Plu"QuoteI don't think they modeled them on the teachings of Jesus Christ and loving your enemy, turning the other cheek and caring for the oppressed and needy
There hasn't been a nation in the history of the world modeled on that.
So true. Unless they misread and did the opposite.
Quote from: "Passion of Christ"Quote from: "Moriarty"Someone posted a joke graph earlier that basically stated "We would probably already be exploring the galaxy if not for Christianity."
Alternatively we could still be sacrificing animals to idols in temples, appeasing the rain god and consulting auguries with an iron age level of technology. Science and an understanding of the natural world developed from religion.
Science was not developed from religion; it developed
in spite of religion. If you understood the history of science, you would know this.
passion is completely right. humanity would be nothing without the moral code and divine manifestation of knowledge from the holy books...religion helps the unification process..although the separation of the faith puts us in greater disarray.
and for all you who tout the advancement of science into the observable universe....realize how useless it is when we cannot even solve any of the problems on earth...since science is straying away from our moral values..it is becoming more and more prone to error..and used for malice(mostly).
Quote from: "MitchellDaBomb"passion is completely right. humanity would be nothing without the moral code and divine manifestation of knowledge from the holy books...religion helps the unification process..although the separation of the faith puts us in greater disarray.
and for all you who tout the advancement of science into the observable universe....realize how useless it is when we cannot even solve any of the problems on earth...since science is straying away from our moral values..it is becoming more and more prone to error..and used for malice(mostly).
Religion IS the problem to all the worlds problems. It's a fairly simple proposition.
Quote from: "Hijiri Byakuren"Quote from: "Passion of Christ"Quote from: "Moriarty"Someone posted a joke graph earlier that basically stated "We would probably already be exploring the galaxy if not for Christianity."
Alternatively we could still be sacrificing animals to idols in temples, appeasing the rain god and consulting auguries with an iron age level of technology. Science and an understanding of the natural world developed from religion.
Science was not developed from religion; it developed in spite of religion. If you understood the history of science, you would know this.
Not all religion was bad hijiri. The ancient Egyptians were forward thinkers. They figured out the circumference of the earth only being off by a fraction, just by using two obelisks. But then came the Abrahamic scientific dark ages.... That sort of put us back a few thousand years in terms of technological development.
No one believes in the gods Ra or Isis or Anubis, etc though, anymore. So actually, my point is moot..... :lol:
Quote from: "MitchellDaBomb"passion is completely right. humanity would be nothing without the moral code and divine manifestation of knowledge from the holy books...religion helps the unification process..although the separation of the faith puts us in greater disarray.
and for all you who tout the advancement of science into the observable universe....realize how useless it is when we cannot even solve any of the problems on earth...since science is straying away from our moral values..it is becoming more and more prone to error..and used for malice(mostly).
For sure, when scientists are trying to modify our crops to produce more food to feed our ever expanding population, they are doing it out of malice. Trying to find green alternatives to energy production is the epitome of evil. If trying to prevent people from starving and striving to increase the quality of human life is immoral, I don't want to be human.
Quote from: "PickelledEggs"Not all religion was bad hijiri. The ancient Egyptians were forward thinkers. They figured out the circumference of the earth only being off by a fraction, just by using two obelisks. But then came the Abrahamic scientific dark ages.... That sort of put us back a few thousand years in terms of technological development.
No one believes in the gods Ra or Isis or Anubis, etc though, anymore. So actually, my point is moot..... :lol:
Maybe this is where our Atheistic views part ways. :)
ALL religion is intrinsically bad and evil, even against any good they may do. When all the math is done the right side of the equation is a negative number.
The Egyptian religions were probably the worst, or at least best example (Model to be followed.), for the whole "I rule through divine intervention" and "Don't worry about life sucking now, you get to go to a better place when you die, as long as you believe the b.s. we spoon feed you."
Quote from: "Moriarty"Quote from: "PickelledEggs"Not all religion was bad hijiri. The ancient Egyptians were forward thinkers. They figured out the circumference of the earth only being off by a fraction, just by using two obelisks. But then came the Abrahamic scientific dark ages.... That sort of put us back a few thousand years in terms of technological development.
No one believes in the gods Ra or Isis or Anubis, etc though, anymore. So actually, my point is moot..... :lol:
Maybe this is where our Atheistic views part ways. :)
ALL religion is intrinsically bad and evil, even against any good they may do. When all the math is done the right side of the equation is a negative number.
The Egyptian religions were probably the worst, or at least best example (Model to be followed.), for the whole "I rule through divine intervention" and "Don't worry about life sucking now, you get to go to a better place when you die, as long as you believe the b.s. we spoon feed you."
Oh don't get me wrong. I'm not saying Ancient Egyptians were all good, I was just saying there was more scientific development with people believing in that mythology than the Abrahamic religions. I agree with you that religion sucks horribly. And while I don't think religion is the cause to ALL the world's problems. I know its the reason for a good majority..... like 99.99999% of them...
Quote from: "Moriarty"Quote from: "PickelledEggs"Not all religion was bad hijiri. The ancient Egyptians were forward thinkers. They figured out the circumference of the earth only being off by a fraction, just by using two obelisks. But then came the Abrahamic scientific dark ages.... That sort of put us back a few thousand years in terms of technological development.
No one believes in the gods Ra or Isis or Anubis, etc though, anymore. So actually, my point is moot..... :lol:
Maybe this is where our Atheistic views part ways. :)
ALL religion is intrinsically bad and evil, even against any good they may do. When all the math is done the right side of the equation is a negative number.
The Egyptian religions were probably the worst, or at least best example (Model to be followed.), for the whole "I rule through divine intervention" and "Don't worry about life sucking now, you get to go to a better place when you die, as long as you believe the b.s. we spoon feed you."
The Egyptians had a very good quality of life compared to all the other civilizations for most of their dynasties. They had a surplus of food thanks to the Nile and (again depending on the dynasty) got lots of time off for religious festivals where the king or pharaoh (depending on the dynasty) had to foot the bill. The king or pharaoh also had to lead the charge in every battle at the vanguard so they weren't just a figurehead that sat back and did nothing, they actually had to be physically fit. The king or pharaoh also had to run their Sed periodically to prove they where physically capable enough to rule.
Quote from: "Icarus"Quote from: "Moriarty"Quote from: "PickelledEggs"Not all religion was bad hijiri. The ancient Egyptians were forward thinkers. They figured out the circumference of the earth only being off by a fraction, just by using two obelisks. But then came the Abrahamic scientific dark ages.... That sort of put us back a few thousand years in terms of technological development.
No one believes in the gods Ra or Isis or Anubis, etc though, anymore. So actually, my point is moot..... :lol:
Maybe this is where our Atheistic views part ways. :)
ALL religion is intrinsically bad and evil, even against any good they may do. When all the math is done the right side of the equation is a negative number.
The Egyptian religions were probably the worst, or at least best example (Model to be followed.), for the whole "I rule through divine intervention" and "Don't worry about life sucking now, you get to go to a better place when you die, as long as you believe the b.s. we spoon feed you."
The Egyptians had a very good quality of life compared to all the other civilizations for most of their dynasties. They had a surplus of food thanks to the Nile and (again depending on the dynasty) got lots of time off for religious festivals where the king or pharaoh (depending on the dynasty) had to foot the bill. The king or pharaoh also had to lead the charge in every battle at the vanguard so they weren't just a figurehead that sat back and did nothing, they actually had to be physically fit. The king or pharaoh also had to run their Sed periodically to prove they where physically capable enough to rule.
Everything you said may be, and probably is, accurate. It doesn't alter anything I said though. ;)
Quote from: "Moriarty"Everything you said may be, and probably is, accurate. It doesn't alter anything I said though. ;)
Not at all, I was just pointing out that life for ancient Egyptians was pretty good for the time period and the king or pharaoh wasn't completely above the law in certain circumstances. The religion they believed in did follow a certain degree of logic, not in the beliefs themselves but how they followed those beliefs.
Quote from: "MitchellDaBomb"passion is completely right. humanity would be nothing without the moral code and divine manifestation of knowledge from the holy books...religion helps the unification process..although the separation of the faith puts us in greater disarray.
and for all you who tout the advancement of science into the observable universe....realize how useless it is when we cannot even solve any of the problems on earth...since science is straying away from our moral values..it is becoming more and more prone to error..and used for malice(mostly).
[youtube:nelw5dk7]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAKG-kbKeIo[/youtube:nelw5dk7]
This world ecosystem is concretely self-sufficient, Icarus. It evolves as we do.
Greed is the reason there are starving people.
Quote from: "MitchellDaBomb"This world ecosystem is concretely self-sufficient, Icarus. It evolves as we do.
Greed is the reason there are starving people.
(//http://eduardostuart.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/oh-really-owl.jpg)
So there are 0 problems in the world we need to worry about? Awesome I'll go tell ozone that it's buildup in the troposphere isn't a problem. I'll go tell starving people that instead of trying to provide more food for them that we'll try and warm the hearts of the so called greedy people that throw away food, so they'll get more food that hasn't spoiled by the time it gets to them. I'm sure my words of encouragement will fill their bellies and take away their hunger pains. I'll tell them, "MitchellDaBomb says the world evolves as we do and will provide for you with no scientific intervention", despite this being the opposite to all recorded data and observations.
Quote from: "Corporal Cross"There is no harm done in practicing my religion, unless we're willing to try crimes of thought as per an inquisitorial edict.
No harm done? That's demonstrably false.
Welcome to the forum.
evolution of ecosystems
http://quaternary.net/necsi/ (http://quaternary.net/necsi/)
ATP synthase evolution in the very seeds of life
Quote from: "MitchellDaBomb"evolution of ecosystems
http://quaternary.net/necsi/ (http://quaternary.net/necsi/)
ATP synthase evolution in the very seeds of life
Yep, to pump that ATP synthase you need a proton gradient, to get a proton gradient you need electrons carried by electron carrying molecules, to get those electrons and the electron carrying molecules you need to run the TCA cycle, to run the TCA cycles you need acetyl CoA, to get acetyl CoA you need Pyruvate, to get Pyruvate you need to break down larger molecules (typically but not limited to Glucose), to get Glucose or other molecules you need to eat food, in order to eat food you need to have food available. If you don't eat none of this happens and you die. How do you get more food without science?
This:
(//http://ahundredyearsago.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/crop-yield.jpg)
Was only possible through scientific advancement, billions would have starved to death if not for science.
Quote from: "Icarus"Quote from: "MitchellDaBomb"evolution of ecosystems
http://quaternary.net/necsi/ (http://quaternary.net/necsi/)
ATP synthase evolution in the very seeds of life
Yep, to pump that ATP synthase you need a proton gradient, to get a proton gradient you need electrons carried by electron carrying molecules, to get those electrons and the electron carrying molecules you need to run the TCA cycle, to run the TCA cycles you need acetyl CoA, to get acetyl CoA you need Pyruvate, to get Pyruvate you need to break down larger molecules (typically but not limited to Glucose), to get Glucose or other molecules you need to eat food, in order to eat food you need to have food available. If you don't eat none of this happens and you die. How do you get more food without science?
This:
[ Image (//http://ahundredyearsago.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/crop-yield.jpg) ]
Was only possible through scientific advancement, billions would have starved to death if not for science.
Well, God made the scientists and guided them through their discoveries.
Quote from: "Icarus"Quote from: "MitchellDaBomb"evolution of ecosystems
http://quaternary.net/necsi/ (http://quaternary.net/necsi/)
ATP synthase evolution in the very seeds of life
Yep, to pump that ATP synthase you need a proton gradient, to get a proton gradient you need electrons carried by electron carrying molecules, to get those electrons and the electron carrying molecules you need to run the TCA cycle, to run the TCA cycles you need acetyl CoA, to get acetyl CoA you need Pyruvate, to get Pyruvate you need to break down larger molecules (typically but not limited to Glucose), to get Glucose or other molecules you need to eat food, in order to eat food you need to have food available. If you don't eat none of this happens and you die. How do you get more food without science?
This:
[ Image (//http://ahundredyearsago.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/crop-yield.jpg) ]
Was only possible through scientific advancement, billions would have starved to death if not for science.
tell me, does a palm tree gestate dates from human involvement? No..humans only further science which is knowledge which is god. Knowledge is in everything and is all-encompassing. Were only further interrupting the natural evolution by using immoral science to create our own false evolutionary path..we arent being in harmony with our world ecosystem..which is unified with our essence
Quote from: "MitchellDaBomb"tell me, does a palm tree gestate dates from human involvement? No..humans only further science which is knowledge which is god. Knowledge is in everything and is all-encompassing. Were only further interrupting the natural evolution by using immoral science to create our own false evolutionary path..we arent being in harmony with our world ecosystem..which is unified with our essence
Prove it.
Quote from: "Icarus"Quote from: "MitchellDaBomb"evolution of ecosystems
http://quaternary.net/necsi/ (http://quaternary.net/necsi/)
ATP synthase evolution in the very seeds of life
Yep, to pump that ATP synthase you need a proton gradient, to get a proton gradient you need electrons carried by electron carrying molecules, to get those electrons and the electron carrying molecules you need to run the TCA cycle, to run the TCA cycles you need acetyl CoA, to get acetyl CoA you need Pyruvate, to get Pyruvate you need to break down larger molecules (typically but not limited to Glucose), to get Glucose or other molecules you need to eat food, in order to eat food you need to have food available. If you don't eat none of this happens and you die. How do you get more food without science?
This:
[ Image (//http://ahundredyearsago.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/crop-yield.jpg) ]
Was only possible through scientific advancement, billions would have starved to death if not for science.
Woah! What happened to corn between 1951 and 1971?
Quote from: "MitchellDaBomb"No..humans only further science which is knowledge which is god.
Say what? :-s
Quote from: "Jason78"Woah! What happened to corn between 1951 and 1971?
This guy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Borlaug (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Borlaug)
Let's see what god has to say. (//https://twitter.com/TheTweetOfGod/status/437371434948501504)
Quote from: "Icarus"Quote from: "Jason78"Woah! What happened to corn between 1951 and 1971?
This guy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Borlaug (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Borlaug)
Wow!
Quote from: "Corporal Cross"So far, the only person with anything resembling the correct answer is moralnihilist, though in what I hope is not an emo fashion. The answer is entropy. Entropy is the one observable law of the cosmos. All things ordered proceed to disorder.
What are the other laws of thermodynamics, chopped liver? And you seem to have your own definition of what 'observable' means, because all of the physical laws are observable.
Quote from: "Corporal Cross"It's not the speed of light in a vacuum or anything like that. That's all relative, but entropy is a constant.
Entropy is not a constant. Its rate is variable, and it can be reversed in a small area at the expense of increasing the overall rate of entropy.
Quote from: "Corporal Cross"Or is someone aware of a self-sustaining source of matter? Energy?
Nope, but that still doesn't make Entropy a constant.
Quote from: "Corporal Cross"Now, why do I ask such questions? Well, this is the place for introductions, is it not? Clearly, just coming out and saying I'm a Christian generates all manner of responses, some of which say a great deal about the people who worded them. Manodo wisely observes that atheism is not a religion, but all evidence to the contrary. Some people here behave exactly as though they were part of one in the presence of a heathen.
I wouldn't say theism. We've been in the company of people who ask stupid leading questions more times than I can count, perhaps you're sensing the weight of our collective weariness with the tactic.
Quote from: "Corporal Cross"Food for thought, were I capable of such.
If you can type, you can think, if you bother trying.
Quote from: "Corporal Cross"Dawkins would find it interesting.
Why should we care what Dawkins finds interesting?
Quote from: "Corporal Cross"I am more interested in the truth of matters. I've already told you what I am here for. If anything, I should be considered an ally in some people's imaginary war against the ignorance of religion. I am faithful, but I am not so much a fool that I ignore the universe around me. It vexes me that so many of the people I would call brothers and sisters in faith cannot see past that which they are told to believe, and simply pointing out that the bible is mathematically flawed does little to dampen their extremely literal and often selective interpretations.
You seem to think you know what we have to say in advance of us saying it.
Quote from: "Corporal Cross"It concerns me not one whit that most of the members here are atheists of some type or another. Live your life as you choose, and I shall do the same. If that involves praying for you or asking God to bless you, deal with it.
Because those things only work if you tell us about them, like Voodoo. Right?
Quote from: "Corporal Cross"There is no harm done in practicing my religion, unless we're willing to try crimes of thought as per an inquisitorial edict.
We have no idea what you're up to in your head unless you tell us. You seem to be saying that you're going to be telling us. Thanks for the heads up.
Quote from: "Corporal Cross"I offer only a fair trade. From me, you can get some perspective on the views of the faithful, and from you lot, I can hopefully glean some more arguments to use against those who shine with so much faith that it blinds them.
Sure.
Quote from: "Corporal Cross"I'm not here to convert you, though all are welcome. If I sell you anything, it will be a new appreciation for the world you live in, which is nothing less than divine if you look at it the right way. Dawkins made a believer out of me, despite being an atheist himself, and he was wise enough to not discount the presence of a God.
Most of us don't discount the presence of a God, either. Dawkins is not atypical in that regard. Know your audience.
Quote from: "Corporal Cross"There is an order to the world that is not readily apparent to people who pray to the unseen or cast aside the notion of design simply because they cannot see it.
It's not that we can't see design. It's that we can explain why some things look designed when they aren't.
Quote from: "Corporal Cross"The order is, of course, order itself. Some people look at the world and see chaos. I see more people, more high forms of life, creating ever more miraculous things. Or did that change when I wasn't looking?
Order is an inevitable product of chaos. It would be a form of order in itself if chaotic systems never produced order. As you observed, the available order in the universe is always decreasing.
Quote from: "Corporal Cross"Is humanity on its way to destruction due to religion?
I don't think religion will actually destroy us, although some versions may be a contributing factor in our ultimate demise.
Quote from: "Corporal Cross"How about anything else? Speculate as you will, Christianity owns the world. Well, the first world, anyway. Mayhap there is something to learn from the example.
Get the emperor of Rome to outlaw all other cults but yours?
Quote from: "Corporal Cross"Maybe assuming that you are of superior intellect just because you spit on people with faith is not the enlightened thing you believe it to be. Locke certainly didn't endorse that, and it is to him you primarily owe your faith.
Most people of faith are decent, hardworking, peaceful people for the most part, and I wouldn't dream of spitting on them. It's the condescending strawman-building bigots that too often claim to speak for them that give me the feeling that I have a superior intellect, but only in comparison. As far as our 'faith', you seem to be a Humpty-Dumptyist: words mean whatever you want them to, no more, no less. Pardon us if we don't agree to follow you down that particular rabbit-hole.
Quote from: "Corporal Cross"Anyhow, I look forward to the intelligent discussion I have seen glimpses of here. Those of you who think me easy prey because I call Jesus my savior are in for a nasty surprise.
I don't think you're easy prey because you believe in Jesus. I think you're easy prey because you're a pretentious pettifogger who crafts insults into the fabric of your false assertions and loaded questions while trying to take the moral high ground by judging your interlocuters unworthy in advance. The dishonest approach is not the smart one.
Quote from: "Corporal Cross"I am not here to beggar your pathetic attempts at insult. At least the faithful challenge me with scripture, however convenient and contradicted.
Are you one of those people who think they are being polite because they're not using 'bad' words?
Quote from: "Corporal Cross"Those of you who cannot quote your own scripture might as well shove off. I did not come all this way to entertain the opinions of every idiot left of the bell-curve who assumes that they are somehow correct in assumption of things they know nothing about. The faith has its share of those, and so does the big-bang theory. Neither are of any more interest than tirelessly worn books of Goodall's.
I dare you to do a more thorough job of poisoning the well.
Quote from: "Corporal Cross"But enough of that. This is the place for introductions and welcomes. I've told you who I am, why I think the way I do. You know me now. It is my earnest hope that I will come to know you, to see the world through different eyes. Is that so wrong? Careful, you might find yourself thinking like a Christian before long :p
I already regret learning what I have already about you. Your mendacity will prevent you from ever truly understanding our position, which isn't wrong, just a waste of your time if THAT were actually your goal instead of entertaining yourself by stirring the pot. There are worse things than coming to think like a Christian. One of them would be coming to think like you.
Quote from: "Passion of Christ"Quote from: "Sal1981"Quote from: "Passion of Christ"Tell that to Giordano Bruno and all the "witches" who were burned at the stake.
You have about 40,000 witches burned at the stake over 300 years (Jesus didn't particularly insist that anyone should do this) and 90+ million people killed by secular/atheist Communist governments in 100 years just for a comparison.
The communists had machine guns, and if you're going to count people killed by any atheist against atheists, any people killed by theists must count against theists. Not just the Crusades and Inquisition, but the human sacrifices of South American civilizations, for instance; and recent genocides in Africa.
If you want to compare Catholics and communists, that's one thing, but you're making a category error to compare Catholics and atheists. I have as much in common with Stalin because I'm an atheist as you do with bin Laden because you're a theist.
Quote from: "Passion of Christ"Quote from: "Sal1981"Oh please, you want a pissing contest over semantics? Guess who Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot modeled their governments after; you'll be surprised.
I don't think they modeled them on the teachings of Jesus Christ and loving your enemy, turning the other cheek and caring for the oppressed and needy. Many Christian nations didn't particularly either but at least they were supposed to do in theory. Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot were supposed to decide whatever was right was right seeing as they had all the supreme authority to decide everything for themselves for everyone, something they very much liked about the atheism deal.
Actually, you'd be hard put to prove any of them was really an atheist. Pol Pot and Mao were Buddhists who repeatedly referred to heaven and Mao once commented that he would soon be called to God. Stalin was a hardcore atheist, though.
So: Hitler, Pol Pot, Mao; all theists. Stalin, atheist.
The only reason not to be more specific than theist and atheist is in hopes of casting your net wide enough to imply that the person you disgree with is somehow responsible for those body counts. After all, what's the fun of comparing Catholics and communist if neither of us is a Catholic or communist? Which is why theists never seem to bring up the body count of the atheists we have the most in common with: humanists.
Quote from: "MitchellDaBomb"passion is completely right. humanity would be nothing without the moral code and divine manifestation of knowledge from the holy books...religion helps the unification process..although the separation of the faith puts us in greater disarray.
and for all you who tout the advancement of science into the observable universe....realize how useless it is when we cannot even solve any of the problems on earth...since science is straying away from our moral values..it is becoming more and more prone to error..and used for malice(mostly).
In the last 200 years we gave gone from being a planet with 90% of its human inhabitants in extreme poverty (subsistence farming with hand tools) to being a planet with 15% of its human inhabitants in those straights, and heading lower. Science and economic growth have done more for the living conditions of humans than anything else, ever. In that period, we have given up the practice of legal chattelry of humans, and despite the efficiency of our devices, fewer people as a percentage of the population die in war than ever before in recorded history. Our morals aren't getting worse, they're
improving , because we very slowly learn from our mistakes as we go along.
It's hard to respect someone who calls science useless over the internet.
Quote from: "Passion of Christ"You have about 40,000 witches burned at the stake over 300 years (Jesus didn't particularly insist that anyone should do this) and 90+ million people killed by secular/atheist Communist governments in 100 years just for a comparison.
Adolf Hitler, Roman Catholic, had approximately 11 million people killed due to his religious belief that the Aryan race was descended from Adam and Eve, and all other races were abominations before God.
75 million Native Americans have been killed over the course of 500 years by the intervention of Christian governments subduing them and/or making room for their own settlers. Some of it was caused by the natural spread of European diseases, but a large portion was also caused by the British and later the Americans giving tribes blankets infected with smallpox, as well as direct conquest. Let us also not forget the sterilization programs that came to light in the 80's that has hastened the death of these cultures.
The Crusades were nothing short of Biblically-inspired massacre.
Modern atrocities in Africa are nothing short of Biblically-inspired slaughter.
Shit like Jonestown can
only happen as a result of religion.
Let us also not forget the numerous atrocities, such as the systematic capturing and enslavement of the peoples of Sub-Saharan Africa, and numerous other acts that didn't necessarily result in death but were nonetheless just as evil.
And this is just what Christianity has done. If I get started on other religions, such as the Mongol shamanistic religion that drove them to wipe whole cities off the map with their bare hands, we'll be here all day.
Quote from: "Corporal Cross"Hello, and thank you for reading! Please allow me to begin by saying that I am a Christian. It would take an act of divine revelation to change that. Even so, I have seen a lot of excellent points and well-considered opinions on this forum, which is why I am here. So why am I here? The twain are not mutually exclusive.
I am here because there is no shortage of idiocy on either side of the religious fence. For every passage-pruning, preening parochial puissant there is an arrogant, avant-garde, atheist admonisher. I see little difference between the two. I see humans competing for dominance. I would rather hear some sensible arguments that I might use to curb the religious fanaticism of my peers without offending them. Naturally, this does not extend to the mocking, self-righteous new religion asserting that God cannot be proven. I am as keenly aware of the absence of proof as I am the existence of it, and I don't need a cleric to educate me as to all the ways I have sinned in a world with God or without.
Mostly, I am interested in the personal views of atheists and even the faithful who have ended up here. There is little point in speculating about a higher order or lack thereof if one cannot discern what it is made of. So when I show up challenging your faith or lack of it, please know that it is done in the spirit of greater understanding, not malice.
That said, I leave all here with a simple question, to test faithful of any kind. What is the one observable law of the universe?
I was once a Christian. Welcome to the forum!
I'm now an Agnostic, and my path came to this rather naturally. No one knows...NO ONE...whether there is a god or not. Agnosticism allows for me to be open minded, yet logical, at the same time. I believe in facts. I think (know) the Bible is a lot of fable, and myth, presented as truth as to control the masses. (way back when, but it still can be seen as a controlling tool, today)
Agnosticism to me, is living my most authentic self. No one knows, one way or the other. And the beauty is, I don't feel that internal struggle anymore to prove this one or that one wrong. If you are a Christian, my only unsolicited advice for you, is to know why you believe what you do. Embrace what you believe because it honestly makes sense, to you. If you believe in a Christian idea of 'god,' then live it. There's nothing worse to me, than someone who touts that he/she is religious, but lives their life with no real conviction. In other words, don't follow what you do, out of fear.
Christianity (to me) breeds fear. But, I will not clutter your intro post here with MY issues. 8-) lol
Hope you enjoy the forums here! :)
PS--There's an old but very good saying. For those who believe, no explanation is needed. For those who do not, no explanation will ever be enough.
No truer words were ever spoken. Faith or lack thereof, is one's personal journey of discovery. I can't and won't tell another person that he/she is 'wrong,' to believe in a god. We all have to seek truth on our own, whatever that truth ends up being.
There are several observable laws, but none involve Big Spooky aka god.
CC, perhaps it never dawned on you that not everyone is as good at spinning words as others. Preachers are usually quite adept at spin tactics. its how they con people out of money and just because youre a skilled spin doctor it doesnt make you better at jack shit other than spin. im quite plain spoken, but your spin is less impressive than the fact that shit sticks to toilet paper. Keep trying though. You might even learn somethingk but Im not holding my breath.