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Humanities Section => Political/Government General Discussion => Topic started by: Insult to Rocks on February 18, 2014, 08:16:09 PM

Title: Kiev burning.
Post by: Insult to Rocks on February 18, 2014, 08:16:09 PM
//http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/18/world/europe/ukraine-protests/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
QuoteKiev, Ukraine (CNN) -- Long-simmering tensions exploded anew in Ukraine as clashes between police and anti-government protesters left at least 21 people dead and the capital's central square afire into early Wednesday.

President Viktor Yanukovych will address the nation after meeting with the opposition, Yanukovych's advisers told local media. The exact time for the address has not been announced.

Opposition leader Vitali Klitschko went to Yanukovych's office for talks after hours of clashes Tuesday continued early Wednesday. But the meeting failed to produce a breakthrough.

Klitschko said the president demanded protesters "stop the standoff" and drop weapons that Klitschko said they didn't even have.

"I think the authorities should immediate pull back the police and stop the blood, because people are dying," Klitschko said, according to his Ukrainian Democratic Alliance for Reforms party. "I told Yanukovich this. How can we negotiate when there is blood being spilled? Unfortunately, he does not understand it."

The fresh violence in Kiev comes amid monthslong turmoil in what is essentially a fight over whether the country's future is alongside Russia or Europe, the latter favored by protesters.

Police confirmed the unrest has spread outside the capital of Kiev to western Ukraine, with protesters attacking police and local government offices in a number of regions.

Explosions ruptured the night air, but it was unclear whether they emanated from protesters' fireworks or a police action. Protesters fed several fires by tossing wood upon the bonfires in Independence Square, which was under the demonstrators' control.
 
Hundreds of protesters formed human chains passing bricks, rocks, wood -- any projectile for front lines -- and built barricades against a potential police offensive as Tuesday night became Wednesday at Independence Square, located about three blocks from parliament.

In those post-midnight minutes, Ukrainian security forces advanced against some barricades and used stun grenades and water cannons against protesters. Once police gained some ground, they relented and eased. Protesters in the heart of Independence Square threw rocks at police.

With more than 40 police officers injured in clashes with protesters favoring a European Union pact, ominous warnings were issued by Kiev officials and the U.S. Embassy.

City Hall officials warned residents to stay away from the city center "to avoid casualties," and the U.S. Embassy said Ukrainian security services "may take extraordinary measures" following the fiery violence.

The U.S. Embassy "advises all citizens to maintain a low profile and to remain indoors tonight," the mission said Tuesday.

In addition to nine police officers, the 21 people dead included 11 protesters and an employee from the ruling party's headquarters, officials said.
I never knew this was even an issue until know. I have to keep more up to date on politics, it seems. But seriously, watch the video on the articles page. I wasn't kidding when I said Kiev was burning.
Title: Re: Kiev burning.
Post by: AllPurposeAtheist on February 18, 2014, 08:23:15 PM
This will spread I fear, but tough to say where and how..I hope this doesn't become yet another proxy war with Russia and the west, but it appears headed that way real fast.
Title: Re: Kiev burning.
Post by: aitm on February 18, 2014, 09:56:55 PM
The unexpected consequences of the internet perhaps? I don't know, maybe shoe will tell us if she thinks the western and higher european countries lifestyles and "freedoms" effect the politics of other countries. We would think so, but perhaps that is our ego talking.
Title: Re: Kiev burning.
Post by: Insult to Rocks on February 18, 2014, 10:07:05 PM
Quote from: "aitm"The unexpected consequences of the internet perhaps? I don't know, maybe shoe will tell us if she thinks the western and higher european countries lifestyles and "freedoms" effect the politics of other countries. We would think so, but perhaps that is our ego talking.
From what I've read, it seems to be more about the residual effects of being dominated by Russia for so long. Lots of former soviet nations and the like have this kind of identity crisis.
Title: Re: Kiev burning.
Post by: The Skeletal Atheist on February 18, 2014, 10:14:15 PM
Live feed for anyone interested: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kwwhD3gyqmk (http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kwwhD3gyqmk)

Shit is certainly on fire.
Title: Re: Kiev burning.
Post by: GrinningYMIR on February 18, 2014, 10:27:31 PM
I hope they can avoid further violence, but that seems unlikely now.

I have a deep respect for the Ukrainian people, and I didn't want to see Kiev burn again
Title: Re: Kiev burning.
Post by: The Skeletal Atheist on February 18, 2014, 10:31:59 PM
Quote from: "GrinningYMIR"I hope they can avoid further violence, but that seems unlikely now.

I have a deep respect for the Ukrainian people, and I didn't want to see Kiev burn again
I just hope it doesn't erupt into a full on civil war. Unfortunately civil war seems to be the all the rage this century. Shit, it was pretty popular last century too.

Also some music going on now, I don't know if it's a protest song or just a song that's popular. Either way it's nice to have a soundtrack while burning shit.
Title: Re: Kiev burning.
Post by: Insult to Rocks on February 18, 2014, 10:40:41 PM
Quote from: "The Skeletal Atheist"
Quote from: "GrinningYMIR"I hope they can avoid further violence, but that seems unlikely now.

I have a deep respect for the Ukrainian people, and I didn't want to see Kiev burn again
I just hope it doesn't erupt into a full on civil war. Unfortunately civil war seems to be the all the rage this century. Shit, it was pretty popular last century too.

Also some music going on now, I don't know if it's a protest song or just a song that's popular. Either way it's nice to have a soundtrack while burning shit.
I think a Ukranian singer is performing for the protesters. I saw a couple other articles detailing it on CNN, so maybe it's on there somewhere.
Title: Re: Kiev burning.
Post by: The Skeletal Atheist on February 18, 2014, 10:44:59 PM
Quote from: "Insult to Rocks"
Quote from: "The Skeletal Atheist"
Quote from: "GrinningYMIR"I hope they can avoid further violence, but that seems unlikely now.

I have a deep respect for the Ukrainian people, and I didn't want to see Kiev burn again
I just hope it doesn't erupt into a full on civil war. Unfortunately civil war seems to be the all the rage this century. Shit, it was pretty popular last century too.

Also some music going on now, I don't know if it's a protest song or just a song that's popular. Either way it's nice to have a soundtrack while burning shit.
I think a Ukranian singer is performing for the protesters. I saw a couple other articles detailing it on CNN, so maybe it's on there somewhere.
That makes sense. Once again it's nice to have a soundtrack to revolution.
Title: Re: Kiev burning.
Post by: GrinningYMIR on February 18, 2014, 10:48:20 PM
Like I said, I don't want Ukraine to burn. I don't care if it goes EU or Russia, I just would rather see the land and its people happy and not dead

fires have a way of spreading, those protestors are lucky they haven't been burned yet

or tear gassed for that matter
Title: Re: Kiev burning.
Post by: The Skeletal Atheist on February 18, 2014, 11:02:25 PM
I too hope for a peaceful resolution to this. I'd rather it go with the EU than Russia to be honest, but I'll admit I'm not the most unbiased person in that matter.

All that said I don't really know how this will turn out. There's a good Russian speaking portion of the population that wants to side with Russia, then there's a large portion that wants to side with the EU, and then a not insignificant portion that wants to just say "fuck it" and just be Ukraine without either. Add to that cultural issues that go back hundreds of years and you have the making of a clusterfuck.
Title: Re: Kiev burning.
Post by: AllPurposeAtheist on February 19, 2014, 06:50:08 AM
I think protesters there know what it means to be under Moscow's thumb, but there's much more going on there than the media reports I think and I wouldn't be to shocked if massive amounts of weapons and money flow from both sides. It may turn out to be the war east v west has been spoiling for for so long. The rise of right wing fascists and the orthodox church in the east vs this muddled nonsense "christianity" of the west especially from the US doesn't bode well.
I'd bet everything I'll ever own that the CIA has plenty of operatives hanging out in Kiev.
Title: Re: Kiev burning.
Post by: Plu on February 19, 2014, 07:39:40 AM
Hm, I met someone from the Ukraine a few days ago. Maybe next time I see her I should ask about this. Although I have no idea if she'd even want to talk about it, of course.
Title: Re: Kiev burning.
Post by: AllPurposeAtheist on February 19, 2014, 07:58:29 AM
I don't think the cia advertises their presence wearing team cia uniforms.  :-k
Title: Re: Kiev burning.
Post by: The Skeletal Atheist on February 19, 2014, 03:30:43 PM
And we might be seeing a civil war...fuck.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/ukraine-facing ... le-1437092 (http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/ukraine-facing-civil-war-lviv-declares-independence-yanukovich-rule-1437092)
Title: Re: Kiev burning.
Post by: GrinningYMIR on February 19, 2014, 03:32:58 PM
God...Shits hitting the fan
Title: Re: Kiev burning.
Post by: Plu on February 19, 2014, 03:33:23 PM
Damn. That's serious.
Title: Re: Kiev burning.
Post by: AllPurposeAtheist on February 19, 2014, 03:40:31 PM
It's very serious. The Ukraine is at the crossroads of the east v west fight that's been brewing for a very long time. They talk of sanctions in Washington as if it's the solution and war unspeakable,  but you have to know planning includes the possibility of a very ugly war where both sides pretend doesn't happen. It's not an easy call and could easily spiral way out of control. I'm really glad John McCain didn't win the presidency.
Title: Re: Kiev burning.
Post by: The Skeletal Atheist on February 19, 2014, 04:56:58 PM
Quote from: "AllPurposeAtheist"It's very serious. The Ukraine is at the crossroads of the east v west fight that's been brewing for a very long time. They talk of sanctions in Washington as if it's the solution and war unspeakable,  but you have to know planning includes the possibility of a very ugly war where both sides pretend doesn't happen. It's not an easy call and could easily spiral way out of control. I'm really glad John McCain didn't win the presidency.
Yeah, if this new development turns into civil war I don't think Russia is just going to sit by. If Russia gets into the fray supporting one side financially and militarily the west, particularly the US, will take notice. This could turn really ugly really fast.
Title: Re: Kiev burning.
Post by: Shol'va on February 19, 2014, 05:44:38 PM
Quote from: "The Skeletal Atheist"Yeah, if this new development turns into civil war I don't think Russia is just going to sit by. If Russia gets into the fray supporting one side financially and militarily the west, particularly the US, will take notice. This could turn really ugly really fast.
Even if they do, wanna bet it'll never make the light of day?
Title: Re: Kiev burning.
Post by: The Skeletal Atheist on February 19, 2014, 07:09:12 PM
Quote from: "Shol'va"
Quote from: "The Skeletal Atheist"Yeah, if this new development turns into civil war I don't think Russia is just going to sit by. If Russia gets into the fray supporting one side financially and militarily the west, particularly the US, will take notice. This could turn really ugly really fast.
Even if they do, wanna bet it'll never make the light of day?
Why wouldn't it?
Title: Re: Kiev burning.
Post by: Shol'va on February 19, 2014, 07:11:56 PM
Because this is Russia we are talking about. I have faith in their ability to covertly support a war behind the scenes
Title: Re: Kiev burning.
Post by: Insult to Rocks on February 19, 2014, 07:36:47 PM
Quote from: "Shol'va"Because this is Russia we are talking about. I have faith in their ability to covertly support a war behind the scenes
We're not talking about the USSR anymore Shol'va. Russia can barely hold a stable government together. They've been on a lot of nations shit lists since blocking resolutions regarding the Syrian civil war, not to mention the olympics and the anti-gay laws. The media coverage of Russia at the moment is probably the highest it's been in years. It would be a really bad move for Russia to get involved without the U.Ns aproval.
Title: Re: Kiev burning.
Post by: Shol'va on February 19, 2014, 07:44:48 PM
Don't be fooled by acronyms, it's a too common mistake. I did not say with a high degree of confidence they WILL do this. I said should they choose to, they can make it happen. The UN and the lot of them are hardly in a position right now to raise any sort of pressure against Russia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia_in_ ... rgy_sector (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia_in_the_European_energy_sector)
Title: Re: Kiev burning.
Post by: AllPurposeAtheist on February 19, 2014, 07:55:27 PM
The UN is a toilet paper tiger when it comes to war even in very small nations. The US, Europe and Russia are well schooled in covert war and no doubt this one has been on the drawing board for a long time with the manufacturers of the tools of the trade of war fully prepared to ramp up production if that isn't already in the works.
The UN will provide cover as paper diplomats jockey for camera face time, but the dirty business will go on as if nothing is happening at all.
Title: Re: Kiev burning.
Post by: Shol'va on February 19, 2014, 07:58:14 PM
Sternly worded letters only do so much, right?  :rollin:
Title: Re: Kiev burning.
Post by: Moriarty on February 19, 2014, 08:02:06 PM
Quote from: "Shol'va"
Quote from: "The Skeletal Atheist"Yeah, if this new development turns into civil war I don't think Russia is just going to sit by. If Russia gets into the fray supporting one side financially and militarily the west, particularly the US, will take notice. This could turn really ugly really fast.
Even if they do, wanna bet it'll never make the light of day?

That is what I'm thinking and questioning. There is so little coverage here (U.S.) of what is happening there. It almost seems as if, even the liberal media, is afraid to report on people uprising against a government in a supposedly democratic/free nation.
Title: Re: Kiev burning.
Post by: AllPurposeAtheist on February 19, 2014, 08:02:23 PM
And this time they really, really, really, really mean it. Everyone sing Kumbya or else!
Title: Re: Kiev burning.
Post by: Insult to Rocks on February 19, 2014, 08:02:31 PM
Quote from: "Shol'va"Don't be fooled by acronyms, it's a too common mistake. I did not say with a high degree of confidence they WILL do this. I said should they choose to, they can make it happen. The UN and the lot of them are hardly in a position right now to raise any sort of pressure against Russia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia_in_ ... rgy_sector (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia_in_the_European_energy_sector)
I only ment that Russia is nowhere near as unified as it was under the Soviets. They're having problems keeping they're own country together. That's why they're pouring so much money into Sochi: It's a hail mary to try to regain legitimacy and unify their country. They probably are too focused on it to care about Ukraine.
As for the rest, I only ment that any intervention wouldn't go unoticed, not that there'd be a effective response.
Title: Re: Kiev burning.
Post by: AllPurposeAtheist on February 19, 2014, 08:14:06 PM
IR, Russia has been around for some time and isn't likely to just disolve any time soon.  They have problems,  but so does every nation. Don't be fooled by the media reports of collapse or disarray. They still hold a very strong seat in the UN, still have vast oil and gas reserves and a rather large military infrastructure.
Title: Re: Kiev burning.
Post by: Insult to Rocks on February 19, 2014, 08:18:13 PM
Quote from: "AllPurposeAtheist"IR, Russia has been around for some time and isn't likely to just disolve any time soon.  They have problems,  but so does every nation. Don't be fooled by the media reports of collapse or disarray. They still hold a very strong seat in the UN, still have vast oil and gas reserves and a rather large military infrastructure.
I'm not saying they'll collapse, APA. Thats about as silly as assuming the U.N will actually do something about anything. I just meant that Russia's focus is more likely on other things, and that I doubt that they would throw all the hard-earned goodwill form the Olympics away just to intervene in the Ukraine.
Title: Re: Kiev burning.
Post by: AllPurposeAtheist on February 19, 2014, 08:24:58 PM
The goodwill of Sochi was lost before it ever got started. Russia still has a huge beaurocracy and plenty of practice at clamping down on descent.
Title: Re: Kiev burning.
Post by: Insult to Rocks on February 19, 2014, 08:28:09 PM
We should probably stop speculating about this anyway. Has Russia issued any official statements or anything that could give us any idea on their position, or is everyone too focused with Sochi?
Title: Re: Kiev burning.
Post by: Shol'va on February 19, 2014, 08:31:07 PM
There only needs to be a handful of people high up in government, and it just so happens that Putin is my prime suspect, to have a unified desire that tugs to days past of a glorious mother Russia. Look at the Snowden affair. The US threatened that harboring Snowden would be bad for a country's health and Russia jumped at the opportunity to say a "haha fuck you".
But, as it stands, I don't see a real interest, not when the EU in general is sucking at their delicious oil-filled teat.
Title: Re: Kiev burning.
Post by: Moriarty on February 19, 2014, 09:19:24 PM
http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/0 ... pe=article (http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/02/19/live-video-from-kiev-and-images-of-violence-in-other-ukrainian-cities/?action=click&contentCollection=Europe&region=Footer&module=TopNews&pgtype=article)

Live continuous feed from Kiev~
Title: Re: Kiev burning.
Post by: Insult to Rocks on February 19, 2014, 09:40:17 PM
Bagpipes?
[youtube:25q1um1m]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJAR9ERJt4s[/youtube:25q1um1m]
Title: Re: Kiev burning.
Post by: Shol'va on February 19, 2014, 09:43:33 PM
Yep! I had to look it up.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duda (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duda)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volynka (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volynka)

Oh look! My country is mentioned
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimpoi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimpoi)
Title: Re: Kiev burning.
Post by: Hijiri Byakuren on February 20, 2014, 09:18:38 AM
This is the first news story in quite a long time to make me turn on the television. Unfortunately, no one's really doing very much live coverage here in the states.
Title: Re: Kiev burning.
Post by: The Skeletal Atheist on February 20, 2014, 09:27:30 AM
Quote from: "Hijiri Byakuren"This is the first news story in quite a long time to make me turn on the television. Unfortunately, no one's really doing very much live coverage here in the states.
Why would they? We need to know what Justin Bieber is doing and which celebrity has the hottest bod.
Title: Re: Kiev burning.
Post by: Hijiri Byakuren on February 20, 2014, 09:48:56 AM
Quote from: "The Skeletal Atheist"
Quote from: "Hijiri Byakuren"This is the first news story in quite a long time to make me turn on the television. Unfortunately, no one's really doing very much live coverage here in the states.
Why would they? We need to know what Justin Bieber is doing and which celebrity has the hottest bod.
Which promptly reminded me why I usually don't watch television.
Title: Re: Kiev burning.
Post by: Moriarty on February 20, 2014, 10:02:18 AM
Quote from: "drunkenshoe"http://rt.com/news/kiev-clashes-rioters-police-571/

Body count is something around 40 now or there is blatant censorship.

CNN is reporting the truce broke completely apart with well over 100 dead now and hundreds more hurt. Shitz getting out of control.
Title: Re: Kiev burning.
Post by: AllPurposeAtheist on February 20, 2014, 12:15:05 PM
I'm not sure if I believe any of the news coming out of the Ukraine at this point as there are just to many fingers in the cookie jar. I typically don't buy whatever rt is selling and cnn spins everything too. Not to say Ukrainian government has any credibility,  but if a big bunch of people were in front of me lighting bon fires and heaving fire bombs at me I'd likely want to shoot at them.
Title: Re: Kiev burning.
Post by: The Skeletal Atheist on February 20, 2014, 12:23:08 PM
I think something as simple as "the truce broke" isn't really going to be subject to much spin. Now when it comes to why the truce broke that's where you get everyone throwing their agenda in. On all accounts the lack of a lasting truce is worrying.

As per me, if a bunch of people were lighting fires in my yard and lobbing fire bombs at me I'd get the impression that they didn't like me for some reason.
Title: Re: Kiev burning.
Post by: Shol'va on February 20, 2014, 12:24:35 PM
APA, I suggest social media sites if you want unfiltered perspectives. Twitter is great at keeping up with what is unfolding live. You will be privy to information before the media outlets pick up on it if at all.
Title: Re: Kiev burning.
Post by: Moriarty on February 20, 2014, 12:30:47 PM
Quote from: "Shol'va"APA, I suggest social media sites if you want unfiltered perspectives. Twitter is great at keeping up with what is unfolding live. You will be privy to information before the media outlets pick up on it if at all.

I would tend to disagree. Sorry. Just seems that most social networking sites are from regular citizens and less credible, they all have their own agendas, just like government officials.

Although, in my completely biased opinion, I tend to think that where there is smoke there is fire (both literally and figuratively in this case). Maybe as an American I am just jaded in my thinking that for citizens to actually take up arms against their own government usually means it has some merit because it will NEVER happen here, we're a bunch of pansies.
Title: Re: Kiev burning.
Post by: AllPurposeAtheist on February 20, 2014, 12:48:12 PM
Social media is a cess pool of anything goes. It's tough, if not impossible to filter through the lies and misinformation tossed around in social media. Sure, you might read the truth, but it can just as easily be lies. After all, there are more than a few people who use social media to put a picture of a painting of jesus up only to have a million other people click the 'like' button.  Does that make jesus any more credible because a million people click 'like' ?
Title: Re: Kiev burning.
Post by: The Skeletal Atheist on February 20, 2014, 12:56:40 PM
Wait, a million people "liked" a picture of Jesus? Brb converting to Christianity.
Title: Re: Kiev burning.
Post by: Shol'va on February 20, 2014, 02:26:24 PM
Quote from: "Moriarty"I would tend to disagree. Sorry. Just seems that most social networking sites are from regular citizens and less credible, they all have their own agendas, just like government officials.
I saw the Arab Spring start before my very eyes with live reporting from the ground, including pictures and videos, LONG before it was a glimmer in CNN's eyes. It was truly a remarkable thing to behold. As the violence was erupting, people were posting. Even when their internet was taken away from them, the hacker community came together and set up alternate ways to get online and continue the news reporting. I'm talking about Twitter, not Facebook.
Do not underestimate the power of the people.
Title: Re: Kiev burning.
Post by: Insult to Rocks on February 20, 2014, 07:40:09 PM
Normally I would agree with APA when it comes to mainstream news, but from what I've seen, there really isn't enough news to even really spin anything. The main consensus across the board is confusion and worry, mainly because we don't have enough info to work with. It's either they're blatently lying, or the situation there really is as violent and confusing as it looks.
Title: Re: Kiev burning.
Post by: Insult to Rocks on February 21, 2014, 12:37:41 PM
Well, looks as though things have calmed down for now. Talks are making headway, and reforms are planned for next fall.
Title: Re: Kiev burning.
Post by: Moriarty on February 22, 2014, 12:08:21 PM
Quote from: "Insult to Rocks"Well, looks as though things have calmed down for now. Talks are making headway, and reforms are planned for next fall.

Calmed down? No. Who expected the protestors would win when it appeared arrangements had been settled. Apparently the Ukrainian President's agreement were only, unknowingly to him, signing his own demise. Wow, what a turn of events.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi- ... 4200.story (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-ukraine-protest-20140221,0,1284200.story)
Title: Re: Kiev burning.
Post by: Plu on February 22, 2014, 01:56:27 PM
Well that's certainly a turn of events :o

Here's to hoping it all works out!
Title: Re: Kiev burning.
Post by: The Skeletal Atheist on February 24, 2014, 03:27:51 AM
Now with Cold War style dick waving!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... aking.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2565961/As-Ukrainian-parliament-names-new-acting-president-country-finally-pulled-apart-bitter-divide-20-years-making.html)
Title: Re: Kiev burning.
Post by: AllPurposeAtheist on February 25, 2014, 01:24:44 AM
From what I've read Ukraine is trading Russian thugs for European thugs and their economy is an absolute train wreck. It's doubtful this is going to end as a fairy tale European ending, more of an extended oligarchy power struggle.
Title: Re: Kiev burning.
Post by: Shiranu on February 27, 2014, 12:15:05 PM
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/02/2 ... 64695.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/02/27/ukraine-pro-russia-gunmen_n_4864695.html)

Ethnically Russian region of Ukraine had gunmen storm government buildings and raise Russian flags.
Title: Re: Kiev burning.
Post by: GrinningYMIR on February 28, 2014, 07:43:10 AM
The men that took the airports look as much like militia as I look like J. Edgar Hoover.

Look at their equipment, far more than the average militia could scrap up in such a time period, and even their posture for shit's sake.

Too disciplined, too alert. No those men are either Russian or former Ukrainian military with Russian tech.
Title: Re: Kiev burning.
Post by: josephpalazzo on March 01, 2014, 08:22:29 AM
Russia has begun its invasion. We live in dangerous times.
Title: Re: Kiev burning.
Post by: GrinningYMIR on March 01, 2014, 10:05:14 AM
Well Putin just requested the use of troops to "protect" its people in Crimea
Title: Re: Kiev burning.
Post by: josephpalazzo on March 01, 2014, 10:26:18 AM
Both sides are calculating the risk factors of the next move. The danger is a miscalculation that could degenerate into an uncontrollable situation from which neither side would fInd itself unable to backdown.
Title: Re: Kiev burning.
Post by: GrinningYMIR on March 01, 2014, 10:42:43 AM
Russia just gave the okay to send troops into the Ukraine, specifically Crimea
Title: Re: Kiev burning.
Post by: Moriarty on March 01, 2014, 10:54:23 AM
I'm sure this isn't going to be a popular opinion, here or anywhere else, but after the two mostly needless wars that Bush started (Afghanistan more justifiable to me.), I'm all for doing something for the Ukraine, if they were to want U.S. intervention that is.

It's obvious Putin will never give up power in Russia until he is dead, he is worse than the old Soviet regime, he is a dictator and to be passive to him is similar to the appeasement of Hitler I believe. Somebody needs to stand up to the guy before he starts to think he can do whatever he wants.

Yea, I know nothing will happen because Russia has nukes and people are scared, blah blah. I just think that if somebody were to throw down a serious gauntlet on him in a military manner (not punitive monetary measures) he would back down real fast.
Title: Re: Kiev burning.
Post by: GrinningYMIR on March 01, 2014, 11:01:58 AM
Most Americans don't even know where Ukraine is, we won't get involved there especially after Afghanistan and Iraq

It's going back under the Russian boot unless NATO decides to do something


Or maybe the UN will finally do something other than issue a strong condemnation
Title: Re: Kiev burning.
Post by: Moriarty on March 01, 2014, 11:15:06 AM
Maybe we can solve two problems at once. Release all GITMO prisoners, former Mujahideen fighters and Taliban members from Afghanistan and let em loose in the Ukraine for a while, they liked fighting Russians and were pretty good at it if I remember correctly and it settles down Afghanistan. Haha. (Joke for any idiot who thought I was serious.)
Title: Re: Kiev burning.
Post by: GrinningYMIR on March 01, 2014, 11:21:55 AM
haha, that was a good one actually
Title: Re: Kiev burning.
Post by: Moriarty on March 01, 2014, 11:30:33 AM
Quote from: "GrinningYMIR"haha, that was a good one actually

Eh, thanks........unfortunately I had to put the disclaimer in there, people aren't always so reasonable~
Title: Re: Kiev burning.
Post by: GrinningYMIR on March 01, 2014, 11:34:31 AM
Putin is not some weak dog, he's a Soviet, he has a strong backbone.



And this 100 percent looks like what happened to Czechoslovakia
Title: Re: Kiev burning.
Post by: Moriarty on March 01, 2014, 11:38:01 AM
Quote from: "GrinningYMIR"Putin is not some weak dog, he's a Soviet, he has a strong backbone.



And this 100 percent looks like what happened to Czechoslovakia

And Georgia, and Chechnya. Putin thinks he is a Soviet style leader to be sure but the reality, I believe, is far different than fantasy.

No way have the Russians been able to keep up with the U.S., or even China over the last25 years (they couldn't even do it when they were the Soviet Union), I have little doubt that the U.S. has a much large array of advanced weaponry than they do and would crush them in a military engagement, short of nuclear use. But of course, their having nukes is the problem, isn't it?
Title: Re: Kiev burning.
Post by: GrinningYMIR on March 01, 2014, 11:39:01 AM
Quote from: "Moriarty"
Quote from: "GrinningYMIR"Putin is not some weak dog, he's a Soviet, he has a strong backbone.



And this 100 percent looks like what happened to Czechoslovakia

And Georgia, and Chechnya. Putin thinks he is a Soviet style leader to be sure but the reality, I believe, is far different than fantasy.

No way have the Russians been able to keep up with the U.S., or even China over the last25 years (they couldn't even do it when they were the Soviet Union), I have little doubt that the U.S. has a much large array of advanced weaponry than they do and would crush them in a military engagement, short of nuclear use.

Throwing this into a new thread, but I still say that Russia is a great threat
Title: Re: Kiev burning.
Post by: Shol'va on March 03, 2014, 08:07:34 PM
Quote from: "Shol'va"
Quote from: "The Skeletal Atheist"Yeah, if this new development turns into civil war I don't think Russia is just going to sit by. If Russia gets into the fray supporting one side financially and militarily the west, particularly the US, will take notice. This could turn really ugly really fast.
Even if they do, wanna bet it'll never make the light of day?

I shake my head in disappointment that TSA was right all along. And there I was thinking they'd wage a covert war, silently supporting one party or another. I should have known better. I should have known they have no qualms about swinging their perceived massive dick in full public view. I gave them the benefit of the doubt. I keep making that mistake, it seems to be a character flaw.
Title: Re: Kiev burning.
Post by: Plu on March 04, 2014, 02:48:29 AM
I spoke to the girl from Ukraine yesterday, she says that the Russians are running a very strong propaganda campaign, but that even the Russian people living in Ukraine our out protesting on the streets with signs that say "Putin, we're fine, really" and are opposed to Russian intervention. But apparently the Russians are blocking all media communication in the Crimea area, so it's impossible to know what they're up to.

She also says word is that the Russians have sent 2000 troops, but no medics. She hopes this means they're just bluffing and aren't expecting any actual fighting to occur. I really hope it's a bluff and not just them being so confident about getting away with this that they expect to take the whole country without firing a shot.

(She is also understandably concerned about her brother now that Ukraine is gathering and growing its own armies to defend against the Russians if need be.)
Title: Re: Kiev burning.
Post by: The Skeletal Atheist on March 04, 2014, 03:16:29 AM
Yeah, I couldn't imagine having a male family member over there. I hope it doesn't come to a shooting war, but realistically it all depends on what Putin does. Hopefully it's a bluff.
Title: Re: Kiev burning.
Post by: Shiranu on March 04, 2014, 03:19:04 AM
Putin doesn't strike me as a bluffer...
Title: Re: Kiev burning.
Post by: The Skeletal Atheist on March 04, 2014, 03:23:35 AM
Quote from: "Shiranu"Putin doesn't strike me as a bluffer...
Yeah, that's what worries me. If this were Kim Jong Un I'd be pretty damn sure it's a bluff, but Putin strikes me as the guy to do what he says.
Title: Re: Kiev burning.
Post by: Shol'va on March 04, 2014, 02:15:49 PM
Putin hatin' on gays and yet he takes the backdoor to Ukraine.
Title: Re: Kiev burning.
Post by: Moriarty on March 04, 2014, 02:23:30 PM
Putin isn't mad, he will only go as far as  he knows he will get away with.

That being said, I've read a couple articles that attempt to explain how this is no win for him so it will be interesting to see how this plays out.

A couple have suggested that the U.N. will fast track a very eager to join Georgia into the U.N. which would completely upend Putin's entire reason for wanting Ukraine interests to begin with in an EU type Russia orbit. Surprised I have only read this online and not seen it on television anywhere.
Title: Re: Kiev burning.
Post by: The Skeletal Atheist on March 04, 2014, 02:33:44 PM
Quote from: "Shol'va"Putin hatin' on gays and yet he takes the backdoor to Ukraine.
:rollin:
Title: Re: Kiev burning.
Post by: aileron on March 04, 2014, 02:42:00 PM
Quote from: "Moriarty"That being said, I've read a couple articles that attempt to explain how this is no win for him so it will be interesting to see how this plays out.

It is a no-win for him now that the troops are there.  There's little doubt he realizes it now that it's too late.  His military leaders spooked him into thinking Russia's North Sea fleet access was in jeopardy.  It probably never was, and so Putin has virtually nothing to gain by this and lots to lose.  He'll probably try to keep the troop deployment as low profile as possible before making a face-saving excuse to withdraw them.

QuoteA couple have suggested that the U.N. will fast track a very eager to join Georgia into the U.N...

Do you mean EU?  Georgia has been an independent member state of the U.N. for years.
Title: Re: Kiev burning.
Post by: Moriarty on March 04, 2014, 02:55:06 PM
Quote from: "aileron"
Quote from: "Moriarty"That being said, I've read a couple articles that attempt to explain how this is no win for him so it will be interesting to see how this plays out.

It is a no-win for him now that the troops are there.  There's little doubt he realizes it now that it's too late.  His military leaders spooked him into thinking Russia's North Sea fleet access was in jeopardy.  It probably never was, and so Putin has virtually nothing to gain by this and lots to lose.  He'll probably try to keep the troop deployment as low profile as possible before making a face-saving excuse to withdraw them.

QuoteA couple have suggested that the U.N. will fast track a very eager to join Georgia into the U.N...

Do you mean EU? Georgia has been an independent member state of the U.N. for years.

Most likely, which is why I probably couldn't find the articles when I looked again. :) Although I am quite sure they read U.N., which would be their mistake.
Title: Re: Kiev burning.
Post by: The Skeletal Atheist on March 04, 2014, 03:27:44 PM
Quote from: "aileron"
Quote from: "Moriarty"That being said, I've read a couple articles that attempt to explain how this is no win for him so it will be interesting to see how this plays out.

It is a no-win for him now that the troops are there.  There's little doubt he realizes it now that it's too late.  His military leaders spooked him into thinking Russia's North Sea fleet access was in jeopardy.  It probably never was, and so Putin has virtually nothing to gain by this and lots to lose.  He'll probably try to keep the troop deployment as low profile as possible before making a face-saving excuse to withdraw them.

QuoteA couple have suggested that the U.N. will fast track a very eager to join Georgia into the U.N...

Do you mean EU?  Georgia has been an independent member state of the U.N. for years.
Hopefully he'll find a way to find a way pull out to save face. He could just as easily go for crushing Ukraine's military in order to send a "don't fuck with me" message. It seems unlikely, by crazier things have happened. We're a miscalculation or a stray bullet away from war.

It's all on Putin now. I hate the guy, but I really hope he makes the right decision. If he doesn't then this will turn really really ugly really fast.
Title: Re: Kiev burning.
Post by: AllPurposeAtheist on March 04, 2014, 03:51:10 PM
This can and probably will destroy Russian economy.  Losing weight with the G8 etc, diplomatic isolation. Bad move.
Title: Re: Kiev burning.
Post by: Shol'va on March 05, 2014, 05:38:36 PM
[youtube:3684u1em]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2nklduvThs[/youtube:3684u1em]