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Science Section => Science General Discussion => Topic started by: josephpalazzo on February 17, 2014, 11:13:16 AM

Title: Another debate: Sean Carroll Vs WLC
Post by: josephpalazzo on February 17, 2014, 11:13:16 AM
QuoteJust so we're clear: my goal here is not to win the debate. It is to say things that are true and understandable, and establish a reasonable case for naturalism, especially focusing on issues related to cosmology. I will prepare, of course, but I'm not going to watch hours of previous debates, nor buy a small library of books so that I may anticipate all of WLC's possible responses to my arguments. I have a day job, and frankly I'd rather spend my time thinking about quantum cosmology than about the cosmological argument for God's existence. If this event were the Final Contest to Establish the One True Worldview, I might drop everything to focus on it. But it's not; it's an opportunity to make my point of view a little clearer to a group of people who don't already agree with me.

http://www.preposterousuniverse.com/blo ... ig-debate/ (http://www.preposterousuniverse.com/blog/2014/01/28/william-lane-craig-debate/)

I've already commented on his blog.
Title: Re: Another debate: Sean Carroll Vs WLC
Post by: vincent on February 17, 2014, 10:36:55 PM
Quote from: "url=http://www.preposterousuniverse.com/blog/2014/01/28/william-lane-craig-debate/]josephpalazzo[/url]"]
Craig once made the following admission: "Should a conflict arise between the witness of the Holy Spirit to the fundamental truth of the Christian faith and beliefs based on argument and evidence, then it is the former which must take precedence over the latter, not vice versa".

Does one need to know more about this character?
Craig's character is christian. Why is this a Revelation?

Craig is saying that his faith is not based on argument and evidence, it is based on the "witness of the Holy Spirit". And that is pretty much par for the course when it comes to christians.

So I don't understand your point about his character, as if he is somehow different than all the other christians.
Title: Re: Another debate: Sean Carroll Vs WLC
Post by: SGOS on February 17, 2014, 10:47:39 PM
A debate is more of a spectacle and I don't think it's helpful.  It's similar to watching a football game where you cheer for your team.  I'd rather have a choice where I just attend a lecture that offers new information about the subject.
Title: Re: Another debate: Sean Carroll Vs WLC
Post by: josephpalazzo on February 18, 2014, 08:19:19 AM
Quote from: "vincent"
Quote from: "url=http://www.preposterousuniverse.com/blog/2014/01/28/william-lane-craig-debate/]josephpalazzo[/url]"]
Craig once made the following admission: "Should a conflict arise between the witness of the Holy Spirit to the fundamental truth of the Christian faith and beliefs based on argument and evidence, then it is the former which must take precedence over the latter, not vice versa".

Does one need to know more about this character?
Craig's character is christian. Why is this a Revelation?

Craig is saying that his faith is not based on argument and evidence, it is based on the "witness of the Holy Spirit". And that is pretty much par for the course when it comes to christians.

So I don't understand your point about his character, as if he is somehow different than all the other christians.

Carroll is a newbie when it comes to debate. He also made it clear that he won't spend oodles of hours preparing for it. But you can count on WLC to get very prepared. He has a team of people just digging whatever to bring down his opponents. You can say that WLC is a "professional" debater. And he will present arguments to the layman that will sound scientific, though they're not. If Carroll wants to do well enough to get the attention of " a group of people who don't already agree with me", he will need to focus on how WLC thinks, which is faith, faith, and faith alone, and cut down WLC's pseudo-scientific linguo. Bringing up what WLC has said about the revelation of the Holy Spirit Vs what science tries to do should be central to Carroll's arguments, imho.
Title: Re: Another debate: Sean Carroll Vs WLC
Post by: vincent on February 18, 2014, 11:23:58 AM
Quote from: "josephpalazzo"Bringing up what WLC has said about the revelation of the Holy Spirit Vs what science tries to do should be central to Carroll's arguments, imho.
Craig has used the same schtick for at least ten years, he has said nothing new in a long time. So it should be relatively easy to prepare responses to his arguments.

If Carroll takes your advice and brings up Craig's character, Craig will reply like this, at about 5:40 minutes here (//http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-hrP-8bmk8).
Title: Re: Another debate: Sean Carroll Vs WLC
Post by: josephpalazzo on February 18, 2014, 04:50:28 PM
Quote from: "vincent"
Quote from: "josephpalazzo"Bringing up what WLC has said about the revelation of the Holy Spirit Vs what science tries to do should be central to Carroll's arguments, imho.
Craig has used the same schtick for at least ten years, he has said nothing new in a long time. So it should be relatively easy to prepare responses to his arguments.

If Carroll takes your advice and brings up Craig's character, Craig will reply like this, at about 5:40 minutes here (//http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-hrP-8bmk8).


That's typical of WLC to use subterfuge in not answering the point, which he himself has declared emphatically that revelation from a higher power trumps evidence. So in that video, he quibbled that the Kalam argument is sound, dating a thousand years ago, blah, blah...IOW, he says, "I don't need the Holy spirit because my arguments are already sound". The guy is so full of himself.
Title: Re: Another debate: Sean Carroll Vs WLC
Post by: Manodo on February 19, 2014, 08:07:01 AM
Question for the masses: If at some point you were religious, did debates like this play any role in you adopting an atheist position?

I haven't ever formally been a believer (maybe when I was very young), but I found that debates like this were nonetheless educational because religious arguments can sound rather convincing if you don't know any better, and it's therefore helpful to listen to intelligent rebuttals to them. This knowledge is especially useful if you have religious people in your social circle who call you out for having no belief.
Title: Re: Another debate: Sean Carroll Vs WLC
Post by: josephpalazzo on February 21, 2014, 03:09:19 PM
The debate is tomorrow, Friday Feb 20th at Greer-heard Forum (//http://www.greerheard.com/). Live Stream here (//http://www.tacticalfaith.com/live-stream/).