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Extraordinary Claims => Religion General Discussion => Judaism => Topic started by: zarus tathra on December 20, 2013, 11:21:08 AM

Title: The Karaites are a Jewish sect I can get behind
Post by: zarus tathra on December 20, 2013, 11:21:08 AM
To make a long story short, the Karaites are a sect of Judaism that believes that only the Torah is the official Word of God and that commentaries on the Torah that are commonly treated as being sacred by mainstream Jews like the Talmud are nothing more than commentaries. This seems harmless enough, and in fact most non-Jews would think that that's the default for Judaism, but the reality is that the Talmud and other commentaries are commonly treated as being more important than the Torah, to the point that most Jewish families have a Talmud (which generally costs thousands of dollars) but no Torah.

This in itself is actually quite significant. If personal interpretations of a religious text are treated as being as socially significant as the religious text itself, then that will naturally engender a tendency towards self-aggrandizement and an inflated sense of self-importance. This will also decrease one's sense of reality, since the truth can be treated as something that is continuously "reinterpreted." Not to be "anti-semitic," but you can not deny that this POV characterizes America's media, legal system, and political culture, all of which are dominated by a culture that is deeply influenced by Talmudic Judaism.

The main exception to this within Judaism is the loyal-to-the-original-text Karaite sect. These guys have generally been treated well by every traditionally anti-Jewish regime which they came into contact with. The Russian Czars gave them an exemption from anti-Judaic laws, even the Nazis gave them an exemption (http://http://robintimweis.wordpress.com/2012/06/25/karaites-the-case-of-jewish-exemption-under-nazi-rule-30/). In fact, the only people they've had a long history of conflict with are mainstream Jews due to their hostility towards Rabbinical authority.

If you see some Karaite videos on Youtube, it's easy to see why even anti-Judaic regimes would leave them alone. They are perfect role models for the common man. They have a strong sense of loyalty to culture and to family without being clannish and insular and douchey about it. They're self-deprecating and humorous without being overbearingly sarcastic. They just seem like cool guys.

[youtube:2keexhhp]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUcRCD5zu7A[/youtube:2keexhhp]
Title: Re: The Karaites are a Jewish sect I can get behind
Post by: Solitary on December 20, 2013, 11:46:43 AM
Speaking of Asiah, there were three, and the last one was probably a woman. I debated this with a priest and pastor and won the debate using their own Scripture. It's not only amazing that Christians don't read their own Scripture, but even more amazing when their leaders don't.  :roll:  Solitary
Title: Re: The Karaites are a Jewish sect I can get behind
Post by: zarus tathra on December 20, 2013, 12:02:10 PM
Hahahah, I just installed a browser wordfilter, and I have it so that it replaces every instance of the G-word with "Cthulhu."
Title: Re: The Karaites are a Jewish sect I can get behind
Post by: Solitary on December 20, 2013, 12:16:55 PM
:shock:  :rollin: So now we know what the real name of God is.  [-X  :-$  Solitary
Title: Re: The Karaites are a Jewish sect I can get behind
Post by: GrinningYMIR on December 20, 2013, 01:07:25 PM
ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn
Title: Re: The Karaites are a Jewish sect I can get behind
Post by: zarus tathra on December 20, 2013, 01:21:09 PM
Another bro-tier Karaite

[youtube:m642hyf8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2uaZ4NgLk0[/youtube:m642hyf8]
Title: Re: The Karaites are a Jewish sect I can get behind
Post by: Franklin on December 25, 2013, 02:06:22 AM
Hi zarus tathra,

I was bored and googled "karaite" and found this thread.  There is a Karaite synagogue in Daly City, California, that I plan to join this summer.  (I have to move there.)  I used to be an atheist.  My beliefs haven't so much changed as my values.  I know that atheists insist that their definition is lack of belief in God, but then North Korea calls itself the Democratic People's Republic of Korea.  I don't just accept definitions, I see if they match reality.  And the reality is that virtually all atheists share modern values which are in sharp contrast to the values of other cultures.  My values are not modern values which I see as decadent.  The Karaites allow you to interpret the Bible for yourself.  My interpretation isn't literal and I choose to define God as the laws of nature, particularly those laws that support morality.  So I can join the Karaite synagogue without accepting supernatural beliefs.  I love the values of the Hebrew Bible, so this is a perfect fit for me.
Title: Re: The Karaites are a Jewish sect I can get behind
Post by: Plu on December 25, 2013, 06:22:21 AM
You could also consider Unitarian Universialism in that case. But if your values are those of ancient cultures, you'll probably enjoy life in synagogues :)
Title: Re: The Karaites are a Jewish sect I can get behind
Post by: zarus tathra on December 27, 2013, 11:01:10 AM
I agree that atheism correlates too perfectly with certain political and personal values. The Left makes all the alliances that it can because it is so greedy for power.
Title: Re: The Karaites are a Jewish sect I can get behind
Post by: frosty on December 28, 2013, 04:48:38 PM
Quote from: "Franklin"
Hi zarus tathra,

I was bored and googled "karaite" and found this thread.  There is a Karaite synagogue in Daly City, California, that I plan to join this summer.  (I have to move there.)  I used to be an atheist.  My beliefs haven't so much changed as my values.  I know that atheists insist that their definition is lack of belief in God, but then North Korea calls itself the Democratic People's Republic of Korea.  I don't just accept definitions, I see if they match reality.  And the reality is that virtually all atheists share modern values which are in sharp contrast to the values of other cultures.  My values are not modern values which I see as decadent.  The Karaites allow you to interpret the Bible for yourself.  My interpretation isn't literal and I choose to define God as the laws of nature, particularly those laws that support morality.  So I can join the Karaite synagogue without accepting supernatural beliefs.  I love the values of the Hebrew Bible, so this is a perfect fit for me.

What does... North Korea have to do with anything here? Yes, Atheists in general seem to have "modern values", and that's just the beauty of secularism and separation of religion and state. You can bark all you want on an Atheist forum and I can disagree with you like I'm doing now  :-D Isn't freedom of thought and freedom of and from religion just great?  :)
Title: Re: The Karaites are a Jewish sect I can get behind
Post by: Franklin on December 28, 2013, 05:23:04 PM
Quote from: "zarus tathra"
I agree that atheism correlates too perfectly with certain political and personal values. The Left makes all the alliances that it can because it is so greedy for power.
So then where do you see yourself fitting in?  Do you like modern culture?  Do you think you fit with the people on this forum?  To be honest, the average IQ here seems pretty low.
Title: Re: The Karaites are a Jewish sect I can get behind
Post by: frosty on December 29, 2013, 12:56:35 AM
Quote from: "Franklin"
Quote from: "zarus tathra"
I agree that atheism correlates too perfectly with certain political and personal values. The Left makes all the alliances that it can because it is so greedy for power.
So then where do you see yourself fitting in?  Do you like modern culture?  Do you think you fit with the people on this forum?  To be honest, the average IQ here seems pretty low.

Thanks for proving me right about how you have the sin of pure, unabashed arrogance. You can't handle a difference of opinion so you either ignore or insult, either way since you have chosen not to get off your high horse all I can see for you on this website is running into bigger assholes than I am. I'm actually not that bad compared to some other users here, I'm just trying to be honest and give you some advice, but like a good little religious person you'll just believe whatever you want to feel better about your own self.

Just remember, not everyone that doesn't agree with you has a low IQ. They just disagree with you, nothing you can do about that  :) . Have a good one, buddy!  :wink:
Title: Re: The Karaites are a Jewish sect I can get behind
Post by: Shiranu on December 29, 2013, 01:46:41 AM
I just realized Franklin lives relatively right next to me. Small world.
Title: Re: The Karaites are a Jewish sect I can get behind
Post by: zarus tathra on December 29, 2013, 12:33:58 PM
I think it would smooth things over if you were more specific about what you meant by "modern values," Franklin. Most Americans probably wouldn't like having their fairly harmless, if somewhat vacuous, celebrity-obsessed culture compared to North Korea's militaristic personality cults. Speaking more generally, I feel a lack of precise terminology is one of the primary causes of the irrationality of political discourse both here and abroad. And looking over Karaite writings, much of their discourse is very precise, with plentiful citations, so learning to be more particular would probably help you fit in with them.

What I would mean by the unhealthy political undertones that correlate too well with atheism would basically be a militant belief in the equality of people. I am an atheist, but I really don't like the leftist obsession with equality. Multiculturalism, ideally, would involve healthy competition between different cultures in which only the most welcome ideas would survive, but in practice it usually means the careful and arbitrary protection of inefficient cultural norms. This even extends to their views on genetics, where people maintain beyond all reason that genetics has NO effect on one's mental fitness. That's not even unscientific, it's just stupid.
Title: Re: The Karaites are a Jewish sect I can get behind
Post by: Franklin on December 29, 2013, 12:41:39 PM
Quote from: "zarus tathra"
I think it would smooth things over if you were more specific about what you meant by "modern values," Franklin. Most Americans probably wouldn't like having their fairly harmless, if a bit vacuous, celebrity-obsessed culture compared to North Korea's militaristic personality cults. Speaking more generally, I feel a lack of precise terminology is one of the primary causes of the irrationality of political discourse both here and abroad.
Concrete words cannot be defined, only described.  So here is a list of adjectives that I would use to describe modern culture: evil, immoral, shallow, fake, dishonest, untrustworthy, backstabbing, arrogant, self-righteous, inconsiderate, intolerant, closed-minded, hypocritical, anti-intellectual, vulgar, stupid, and obnoxious.

A good culture is one where people are trustworthy and where they will listen to different opinions without immediately reacting with insults.  By this standard, modern culture is the worst culture that I know of.
Title: Re: The Karaites are a Jewish sect I can get behind
Post by: zarus tathra on December 29, 2013, 12:47:00 PM
See, this is one of the things that always annoyed me about talking to my little brother when he was in high school. Whenever he complained about somebody, he would always use very unspecific adjectives while refusing to cite any specific acts that would justify such a description. So when has a "modern" person been "backstabbing?" When have they treated you unfairly when it came to politics? What incidences stand out most in your mind? Have they gotten angry whenever you questioned their politics? Was the way you questioned their politics very difficult for anyone who wasn't well-versed in your political religion to understand? (This is very common among activists) If your answer is that you "can't remember" and that you insist on maintaining your opinion anyway, then GTFO.
Title: Re: The Karaites are a Jewish sect I can get behind
Post by: Franklin on December 29, 2013, 12:55:19 PM
Quote from: "zarus tathra"
See, this is one of the things that always annoyed me about talking to my little brother when he was in high school. Whenever he complained about somebody, he would always use very unspecific adjectives while refusing to cite any specific acts that would justify such a description. So when has a "modern" person been "backstabbing?" When have they treated you unfairly when it came to politics? What incidences stand out most in your mind? If your answer is that you "can't remember" and that you insist on maintaining your opinion anyway, then GTFO.
I challenge you to define any culture.  Try defining French culture or Japanese culture.  Good luck.  The best you can do is adjectives and anecdotes.  I discuss modern culture and alternatives with some anecdotes here:

http://www.biblicjudaism.org/Modern-Culture-tp41.html (http://www.biblicjudaism.org/Modern-Culture-tp41.html)
Title: Re: The Karaites are a Jewish sect I can get behind
Post by: zarus tathra on December 29, 2013, 01:04:10 PM
Obviously I was looking for anecdotes, but you failed to provide even those. All I can find on your forum are a bunch of Biblical passages and some generalized rants of the kind that I was talking about.

Here's how you really complain about society:

[youtube:1p9kmhip]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMNlAMYwDkU[/youtube:1p9kmhip]

Say what you will about his politics and language, but at least he can cite activities and attitudes that really piss him off.

Here's another example: I hate the urban poor. Not because of a sense of elitism. I hate them because regardless of what I say or do or think short of public suicide, they will always hate me. And if I were to do that, they'd probably just laugh. So fuck them.
Title: Re: The Karaites are a Jewish sect I can get behind
Post by: Franklin on December 29, 2013, 01:09:19 PM
Quote from: "zarus tathra"
Obviously I was looking for anecdotes, but you failed to provide even those. All I can find on your forum are a bunch of Biblical passages and some generalized rants of the kind that I was talking about.
Your signature says "Morals are self-serving."  I should have realized from this that you weren't going to get it.  Of course I provided anectdotes.  Anyway, I am unsubsubscribing from this thread, so goodbye and have a nice life.
Title: Re: The Karaites are a Jewish sect I can get behind
Post by: Plu on December 29, 2013, 01:11:11 PM
Awww, you left before you could get the banhammer. Just in time, too.
Title: Re: The Karaites are a Jewish sect I can get behind
Post by: frosty on December 29, 2013, 02:20:05 PM
Quote from: "Franklin"
Quote from: "zarus tathra"
I think it would smooth things over if you were more specific about what you meant by "modern values," Franklin. Most Americans probably wouldn't like having their fairly harmless, if a bit vacuous, celebrity-obsessed culture compared to North Korea's militaristic personality cults. Speaking more generally, I feel a lack of precise terminology is one of the primary causes of the irrationality of political discourse both here and abroad.
Concrete words cannot be defined, only described.  So here is a list of adjectives that I would use to describe modern culture: evil, immoral, shallow, fake, dishonest, untrustworthy, backstabbing, arrogant, self-righteous, inconsiderate, intolerant, closed-minded, hypocritical, anti-intellectual, vulgar, stupid, and obnoxious.

A good culture is one where people are trustworthy and where they will listen to different opinions without immediately reacting with insults.  By this standard, modern culture is the worst culture that I know of.

But yet those terms are all descriptive, which in turn are subjective, which in turn means they are just your own opinion. Once again, being judgmental and arrogant towards others has gotten you nothing but disrespect and rudeness back. You are playing the victim card by saying that modern culture 'reacts with insults' - a thin, yet in your face reference to this very forum you are on right now. Yet the only sources you provide for your claims are a website you are affiliated with, maybe even made yourself, and when people ask you to back yourself up you get offended.

The real problem here is you, and when you are challenged you run away. You can keep insulting everybody you want because they don't follow the same delusion as you, in the end of the day you are only self-assuring yourself of your own beliefs and you are the one who is fooling yourself. Until you straighten your act up you are always going to run into opposition on different forums, people worse than I am, who won't hesitate to really treat you bad because they are tired of your condescending and judgmental posts. Have a good one Franklin.
Title: Re: The Karaites are a Jewish sect I can get behind
Post by: Jaded on December 29, 2013, 10:59:48 PM
Quote from: "zarus tathra"
I think it would smooth things over if you were more specific about what you meant by "modern values," Franklin. Most Americans probably wouldn't like having their fairly harmless, if somewhat vacuous, celebrity-obsessed culture compared to North Korea's militaristic personality cults.

I would challenge the point of the average American being harmless; we commit, through acts of passive-aggression, treason on this world that is comparable to considerable evil. If I could entertain you on a few points that may stand to exemplify my sentiments...

Most chocolate is produced using cocoa from the Ivory Coast - it is not difficult to find video evidence and journalistic reports of children being stolen from their homes, trafficked and forced to work on plantations for no pay or medical aid, despite what you may read on the front page of the Nestle website concerning it's association with Fair Trade... We have an entire holiday that emphasizes the consumption of chocolate. A lot of these facts are staring us right in the eyes: deforestation for the American dream, for example, or the harvesting of palm oil that is used in beauty products, which is leveling forests and destroying the homes of natives and wildlife... The consumer culture that we've created, where a large portion of our jobs are white-collar, combined with our lack of ability to provide for ourselves is causing a demand that is destroying the ecology all around the world and marginalizing the value of other countries that are going out of their way to appeal to our dollar...

I could keep talking about all of the pollution that we cause and all of the energy that we waste in our failure to compromise as a culture and take responsibility upon ourselves, but I honestly don't expect the significance of this message to find its way to a hearken ear. You must have heard it all before - that we are appealing to the mindlessly indulgent corporations that are ruling our lives - but your hesitancy makes me question whether or not you truly understand the impact of our combined choices... but I personally don't believe that the destruction of nature and slavery in the name of our own apathy and vanity are harmless deeds...
Title: Re: The Karaites are a Jewish sect I can get behind
Post by: FrankDK on December 29, 2013, 11:22:54 PM
> So now we know what the real name of God is.

God's name is Jealous.  Exodus 34:14

Frank
Title: Re: The Karaites are a Jewish sect I can get behind
Post by: zarus tathra on September 05, 2014, 08:48:06 PM
I just read Franklin's whole post that he linked to and it turns out that he had provided exactly what was asked. I just failed to read his entire post and ended up dismissing him as just an angry ranter. The full text of the email I sent to him apologizing for my indiscretion is here:

Quote
In case you need a reminder, I created a thread a while back about the karaites that you found by Googling on atheistforums.com. I asked for some anecdotes and scriptural passages justifying your complaints about modern American society, and you presented a forum post made by you on biblicaljudaism.org. Much to my shame, I dismissed your words as unspecified complaining, because in that post you provided exactly what I asked, and in my sloth, I failed to read the whole thing, which would have forced me to recognize it as such.

If by some miracle you feel a desire to return to that forum, then here is the link to the thread:

http://atheistforums.com/index.php?topic=6010.105