Im going to cut to the chase, one of the main reasons many Americans are depressed about their country is because every time an index comes out, no matter what it is, we are always near the bottom of the list in developed countries. All Americans know this, so why can't we get America to be more like Europe. From guns to healthcare to education, why are Americans so resistant to the changes that are necessary to make our great country greater? It baffles me.
You answered you own question.
QuoteReligion, Nationalism, and Racism is all under the evil wing of Conservatism and preservation of useless traditions!
Solitary
QuoteFrom guns to healthcare to education, why are Americans so resistant to the changes that are necessary to make our great country greater? It baffles me.
Because those things are what makes 'Murica 'Murica.
Quote from: "Solitary"You answered you own question. QuoteReligion, Nationalism, and Racism is all under the evil wing of Conservatism and preservation of useless traditions!
Solitary
Heh heh, but I would like to think not all Anericans are conservative right? Conservatism and Traditionalism is arguably the worst thing about humanity.
In 1776, America was peopled by a brave, well-educated reactionary electorate that questioned blind obedience to tradition. Today it's peopled by a theistic electorate that wants its beliefs made law. This isn't the same America that the Founding Fathers risked their sacred honor for.
Quote from: "Triple Nine"Quote from: "Solitary"You answered you own question. QuoteReligion, Nationalism, and Racism is all under the evil wing of Conservatism and preservation of useless traditions!
Solitary
Heh heh, but I would like to think not all Anericans are conservative right? Conservatism and Traditionalism is arguably the worst thing about humanity.
Even our left-wing politicians are conservative by European standards, so...
For one, America is much more ethnically and culturally diverse than European countries. It's much easier for a homogenous society, like Sweden, to get their shit together because most of them are marching to the beat of the same drum. But even Sweden's starting to feels the pressures of diversity.
To be honest, I'm surprised how well we, as Americans, are getting along.
Quote from: "Jack89"For one, America is much more ethnically and culturally diverse than European countries. It's much easier for a homogenous society, like Sweden, to get their shit together because most of them are marching to the beat of the same drum.
Not to mention the sheer number of people.
Quote from: "Jack89"For one, America is much more ethnically and culturally diverse than European countries. It's much easier for a homogenous society, like Sweden, to get their shit together because most of them are marching to the beat of the same drum. But even Sweden's starting to feels the pressures of diversity.
To be honest, I'm surprised how well we, as Americans, are getting along.
Bull. Canada's an immigrant country too and we don't have near the problems you do.
Quote from: "Triple Nine"every time an index comes out, no matter what it is, we are always near the bottom of the list in developed countries. All Americans know this,
No they don't. You might be able to make a better case by changing this to "Many Americans have been exposed to the information." I'm actually not sure how many have been exposed to such information, but I would venture to say that most do not know it. Conservatives are especially prone to "knowing" that the United States leads the rest of the world in every respect. And they require no data, surveys, or ranked listings to prove this to themselves.
Quote from: "surly74"Quote from: "Jack89"For one, America is much more ethnically and culturally diverse than European countries. It's much easier for a homogenous society, like Sweden, to get their shit together because most of them are marching to the beat of the same drum. But even Sweden's starting to feels the pressures of diversity.
To be honest, I'm surprised how well we, as Americans, are getting along.
Bull. Canada's an immigrant country too and we don't have near the problems you do.
Canada does seem like a nice place to live, but you're at about 1/10 the population with have plenty of elbow room. And let's not forget the longstanding tensions between Les Québécois and the rest of Canada.
I'd love to visit someday, especially Montreal and Quebec City.
Quote from: "Triple Nine"Im going to cut to the chase, one of the main reasons many Americans are depressed about their country is because every time an index comes out, no matter what it is, we are always near the bottom of the list in developed countries. All Americans know this, so why can't we get America to be more like Europe. From guns to healthcare to education, why are Americans so resistant to the changes that are necessary to make our great country greater? It baffles me.
How could you possibly be baffled?
The only people capable of making the changes necessary to make this country great again have determined that doing so is not in their personal best interest. That is the beginning and the end of the entire problem.
Quote from: "Jack89"For one, America is much more ethnically and culturally diverse than European countries.
Hmmm..... I'm not convinced by that one..... :-k
Quote from: "Triple Nine"Im going to cut to the chase, one of the main reasons many Americans are depressed about their country is because every time an index comes out, no matter what it is, we are always near the bottom of the list in developed countries. All Americans know this, so why can't we get America to be more like Europe. From guns to healthcare to education, why are Americans so resistant to the changes that are necessary to make our great country greater? It baffles me.
Blimey... where to start. I guess the reality doesn't live up to the hype. US government's bully-boy tactics over the last few decades leading to disgust from the rest of the world while the media fail to report relevant issues to its public. Maybe, among other things, this produces an overweening sense of entitlement, an overblown sense of USA's own awesomeness, and created a feeling in large swathes of the public that there is no need to strive for better things because they are already at the top of the pile. Compare this to the reality of what has happened to the USA's economy, the outsourcing of jobs, the driving down of wages for the working man, and the upflow of most of the capital to the big boys at the top of the chain, the growth of fundamentalism, the abandonment of the lowest economic band of people because they are never likely to earn enough to be a significant part of the precious 'market'... and that's just a few things....
Maybe that's completely wrong. I'm British, so I don't have the same close-up perspective on USA as a lot of you guys, but that's what it looks like from here. A lot of stuff that I said above is also relevant in Britain, but mainly on a smaller scale. There are many people over here that seem to live in a bubble of entitlement and think that everything should be available to them at the push of a button without them having to lift a finger in effort. The thing is, the system is open to abuse here, and there are plenty who are quite willing to do just that. I was a primary school teacher for a couple of years and some of the kids I taught were 3rd generation unemployed. It's bloody difficult to motivate kids who have no concept of working for reward.
8-[
Quote from: "Jack89"Quote from: "surly74"Quote from: "Jack89"For one, America is much more ethnically and culturally diverse than European countries. It's much easier for a homogenous society, like Sweden, to get their shit together because most of them are marching to the beat of the same drum. But even Sweden's starting to feels the pressures of diversity.
To be honest, I'm surprised how well we, as Americans, are getting along.
Bull. Canada's an immigrant country too and we don't have near the problems you do.
Canada does seem like a nice place to live, but you're at about 1/10 the population with have plenty of elbow room. And let's not forget the longstanding tensions between Les Québécois and the rest of Canada.
I'd love to visit someday, especially Montreal and Quebec City.
what tensions?
1/10 the population with 90% of it within 100 miles of the US boarder. and that has nothing to do with, healthcare, paid parental leave, standards on vacation time.
Canada just isn't a tribal as the US so it can accomplish more for the actual people.
what longstanding tensions between les quebecois and the rest of Canada?
It's funny because the idea often touted by politicians here when trying to implement more US style policies is "it works in 'Murica".
They haven't wised up to the fact that the majoirty of people here in the UK don't want our state structures to be anything like what they are in the states. I'd happily accept some of the nice Californian weather though.
Quote from: "drunkenshoe"United States and Europe are two different cultures. Far more different than Europeans would dare to say or Americans would like to accept. This is not necessarily a bad thing either. Europe is not an ideal place. Its make up and policy is. Same bullshit is happening there too. They have been around longer than US.
Why would trying to be like Europe would solve any other country's problems?
Well in one respect most Northern European states rigidly enforce their secularism and secular state structures. I actually think enforce is the wrong word because the vast majoirty of people, atheist or religious, accept them as positive. In the US it seems like a constant battle to even keep the most basic of secular ideals upheld.
Quote from: "drunkenshoe"United States and Europe are two different cultures. Far more different than Europeans would dare to say or Americans would like to accept. This is not necessarily a bad thing either. Europe is not an ideal place. Its make up and policy is. Same bullshit is happening there too. They have been around longer than US.
Why would trying to be like Europe would solve any other country's problems?
The OP suggests that as the issue, but I think even for the most liberal of us US citizens, it's not really that we want to be like Europe. It's more like we see things that work well in Europe, and would like to incorporate them in our own culture. Sure, I assume Europe has problems too, but there are some very good things there that I see no reason to exclude from our culture. Especially when exclusion is based on the assumption that because they are European, they can't be worth a damn. My conservative friends are quick to point out that they don't want to be like Europe, but they sort of imply that everything in Europe is East Berlin in the 1950s. OK, that's an exaggeration. They are not quite that bad, but they are pretty closed minded about it, and I don't think very well informed.
My cousin is ultra conservative, and he complained about national healthcare because "it's so bad in Canada." I don't believe he's ever been to Canada or even talked to a Canadian about it, but he paints this picture of half of Canada coming to the US for their health care because things are so bad in Canada. I've talked to a lot of Canadians, and never once got a hint from them that this was the case. But I have heard a lot of very positive things in Canada from Canadians about their healthcare. From what I can make out, the average Canadian has better health care than us retired folks who qualify for Medicare. Medicare is pretty good here, but it costs me about $250 to buy insurance that claims to pay the extra amount that Medicare won't cover.
When my cousin complains about his own insurance, he actually hits on the very issues that make our private insurance system so bad. He hates his private insurer, because it disallows tests he needs, and he has to get special permission to see a different doctor, and clear special cancer treatments with his insurer. He never complains about Medicare, but he's not willing to change the system because, well, I'm not really sure. It's like it would be un-American or something. Of course he hate's Obamacare too, even though he supported basically the same idea when the Republicans pushed it as an alternative to Hillarycare back in the 90s.
Quote from: "SGOS"My cousin is ultra conservative, and he complained about national healthcare because "it's so bad in Canada." I don't believe he's ever been to Canada or even talked to a Canadian about it, but he paints this picture of half of Canada coming to the US for their health care because things are so bad in Canada. I've talked to a lot of Canadians, and never once got a hint from them that this was the case. But I have heard a lot of very positive things in Canada from Canadians about their healthcare. From what I can make out, the average Canadian has better health care than us retired folks who qualify for Medicare. Medicare is pretty good here, but it costs me about $250 to buy insurance that claims to pay the extra amount that Medicare won't cover.
When my cousin complains about his own insurance, he actually hits on the very issues that make our private insurance system so bad. He hates his private insurer, because it disallows tests he needs, and he has to get special permission to see a different doctor, and clear special cancer treatments with his insurer. He never complains about Medicare, but he's not willing to change the system because, well, I'm not really sure. It's like it would be un-American or something. Of course he hate's Obamacare too, even though he supported basically the same idea when the Republicans pushed it as an alternative to Hillarycare back in the 90s.
it's not a perfect system but I'm happy with it. combine our healthcare with a good employer benefit package and it's really good. The one negative however is a shortage of general family doctors. each province dictates what a doctor can charge to see a patient and that hasn't changed in a number of years so in some areas there are doctor shortages. If a GP went to the area they would most likely have an immediately full roster of patients.
Canadians with money can come to the US for different treatments. If you have a non emergency issue (MRI for example) it could be eight months to wait, or you could go to Buffalo and pay out of pocket. Same for some specialists...big reason is everyone is based on need, not status.
Americans, per capita, pay more in health costs than Canadians. I've had emergency surgery on my knee, hospital stay, follow ups and so on and didn't pay a cent. Three pregnancies by my wife and we got a $35 bill for something in the room...for the last child. With the last one they were giving out ultrasounds like candy. That's part of the waste...no centralized records.
I know if i ever get seriously ill i won't be bankrupted paying for treatment.
Because the education system sucks, and pouring money into it will just make it more like itself than it already is.
Because the government has no workable plan to make healthcare affordable and good.
Because widespread access to guns is the main reason why the West found democracy and the East did not.
While driving to the store, I got to thinking about this thread. They only times, other than in this thread, where I have ever the issue of "being more like Europe" has always been a conservative response to any suggested change which they claim will not work and will make things worse. When you point out that it works in Europe or Canada or wherever, they frequently respond with, "We don't want to be like 'whatever country'."
At first it sounds like a straw man argument, because no one, not even a political talking head, ever says, "We want to be more like 'whatever'." I've never heard anyone say that. The comment only comes out when you provide some evidence showing it does work after they claim it won't.
But it's not quite a straw man argument, either. It's more like reframing the debate onto a non-relevant side-track that has nothing to do with the issue at hand. It derails the discussion. My response in the past was to get flummoxed, but I'll be looking forward to hearing that again now that I've thought about what is really going on.
The issue is not that it makes us more like another country. The issue is whether or not the idea will work, and even more importantly, whether there is data to support it or contradict it.
I guess for some people a proposal for a change of direction would be tantamount to an admission of failure.
Quote from: "Youssuf Ramadan"I guess for some people a proposal for a change of direction would be tantamount to an admission of failure.
Unfortunately, for some people, that's probably all it's about.
QuoteIt's funny because the idea often touted by politicians here when trying to implement more US style policies is "it works in 'Murica".
They haven't wised up to the fact that the majoirty of people here in the UK don't want our state structures to be anything like what they are in the states. I'd happily accept some of the nice Californian weather though.
Correction (to the politicians): It works for RICH Americans and corrupt politicians, not for your average Joe.
Health care is a pet peve of mine. When I was 24 I ruptured my appendix and the job I had did not offer health insurance, so it was all on me to pay. I was single then and, though it took a few years I was able to pay the bills off. Then, for 16 years I had a good job that offered good health coverage. I had surgery, my wife had surgery and we had two sons. Insurance covered most of the costs. Then I lost that job and when I got sick a few months ago I ended up in the emergency room 3 times and now have a stack of medical bills I can't hope to pay.
I too have heard from several people who say that Canadians come to the US for their medical needs, but I've never met a Canadian who thought that. A few years ago pbs aired an episode of Frontline, I think it was called "sick around the world" that compared our system to six other industrialized, modern countries. They all had tackled health care in different ways, but in every other county no one was in any danger of declaring bankruptcy the way I am now. And they all had a citizenry that lived, on average, at least as long as we do.
If not having health insurance could mean a death sentence in America...
Then why the hell don't you all have health insurance?
Quote from: "Jason78"If not having health insurance could mean a death sentence in America...
Then why the hell don't you all have health insurance?
Maybe some people can't afford it?....
It's odd that the Republican talking point against universal health care centered on "Death Panels." The claim was that some government agency would not allow you access to certain kinds of procedures because they are too expensive. But actually, this is what private insurance companies now do. And deaths have resulted, although they are not common.
Of course "Death Panel" is a gross exaggeration of someone's fear. But the accusation of Government death panels seems to be a psychological projection of what's wrong with the current system onto another system in an effort to protect the collective ego of less cognizant anti government health care folks.
Medicare beats my employer provided health care by miles and miles. I no longer have a huge deductible, and so far, I have not been denied coverage for anything. I wish it provided for medications, but my employer insurance didn't do that either. I would advocate it for all Americans.
When I retired and was forced to pick up the costs of private insurance, it was not a trifling amount. In addition to the $5000 yearly costs, I had to pay $2500 out of pocket to meet my deductible, so that was $7500 I had to pay before I ever got to collect a dime. And now 15 years later, my colleagues tell me the employer insurance where I work is much higher, so I can see the employer mandate as financially devastating to a small company. And if a catastrophic illness would have struck, the insurer stopped paying after something like $100,000.
As for raising taxes, everyone's big beef, at $7000, I would be pleased to pay more in taxes if it allowed me to keep more of my income.
Quote from: "Jason78"If not having health insurance could mean a death sentence in America...
Then why the hell don't you all have health insurance?
For the same reason that homeless people don't have homes. Because they can't afford it, unfortunately.
(//http://healthimpactnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/US_spends_much_more_on_health_than_any_other_country.jpg)
Quote from: "Solitary"You answered you own question. QuoteReligion, Nationalism, and Racism is all under the evil wing of Conservatism and preservation of useless traditions!
Solitary
Be fair, racism has a fair saturation in both parties and both wings.
True. I never knew there were democratic preservations of radical useless traditions though. Solitary
Healthy skepticism of any government or ruling system is always ideal. If not then so called "enlightened" freethinking modern folk risk becoming sheep, subjects of an entity which takes things from them and tells them what to believe, think and do with their lives. Sounds familiar? :)
I of course am generally left-wing on the political spectrum, but you can never give someone the levers of power without having an emergency shutoff valve somewhere else. Any system run by humans must always be kept in check by other humans, etc etc. Although I will take a secular system of institutions over a religious theocracy any day, even secular institutions can be abused as well.
Quote from: "surly74"I know if i ever get seriously ill i won't be bankrupted paying for treatment.
That's why the US bankruptcy laws were changed - so many people declaring bankruptcy because of unbelievably huge medical bills. Those who make the laws seem to think that having a way to escape paying the bills you knew you weren't going to be able to pay was intended only for the wealthy, and only for discretionary spending (like yachts and private jets).
When I lost my job last year I had the option of keeping my insurance through cobra. However to cover me, my wife and our 2 kids would have cost over 1600 a month. Way more than my unemployment check. In comparison our rent was 1200 a month.
Quote from: "Jason_Harvestdancer"Quote from: "Solitary"You answered you own question. QuoteReligion, Nationalism, and Racism is all under the evil wing of Conservatism and preservation of useless traditions!
Solitary
Be fair, racism has a fair saturation in both parties and both wings.
:-? :-k Eh, I would actually take you up on that challenge. Maybe in 1993, yes, but 2013? Black people have become the most reliable demographic the party has. There was only one incident of Democratic racism that occurred in the last few years against McConnell's wife and that was condemned completely. Pretty much all minorities are in the Dems camp, and they are going to make sure it stays that way. Now there is racism in the left-wing yes, but its pretty rare. It's a smaller case of how there are non-progressives in the Democratic Party, but unless high profile they are just expected to shut up.
Back on topic, what annoys me a lot are people who go against there own interests. In all honesty, and I am not going to get in depth, but the stuff that can make America better really doesn't affect me. Whether this stuff happens or not will have a diminished affect on me personally. However, for things such as universal healthcare and cheaper college education it seems a lot of people who could benefit the MOST from this sort of stuff are against the policies that would help enact that. It sucks. I wish there was some university study on just the general situation on why the US is so stubborn when it comes to making policies to make are country better. I mean, most people don't even watch/read the news. That's a problem.
QuoteIt's a smaller case of how there are non-progressives in the Democratic Party, but unless high profile they are just expected to shut up.
Er... the majority of the Democrat Party are fiscally conservative, socially moderate (leaning conservative)... progressive is pretty uncommon among Democratic politicians (if not voters).
Quote from: "Shiranu"QuoteIt's a smaller case of how there are non-progressives in the Democratic Party, but unless high profile they are just expected to shut up.
Er... the majority of the Democrat Party are fiscally conservative, socially moderate (leaning conservative)... progressive is pretty uncommon among Democratic politicians (if not voters).
How much do they want attention to that though. Look at the 2012 Democratic convention. Hell, the emails they fucking send me all the time. There may be large parts if not the majority of Dems being moderate, but that is not the IMAGE they show to their base. As for voters, I would think pure unprecedented polarization would suggest more progressives than you would think.
It probably depends on what you measure them by. Compared to european parties, your democrats are conservatives and your republicans are ultra-extremist-right-wing conservative.
Hell, your republican party blows away what our country considers "right wing extremists" by a mile.
QuoteI wish there was some university study on just the general situation on why the US is so stubborn when it comes to making policies to make are country better. I mean, most people don't even watch/read the news. That's a problem.
And most of those that watch the "news" get it basically straight from the mouth of one of two available political parties, because it's US law that channels can present anything they want and call it "news" because it doesn't actually have to be true. Without free information and reliable news, you can't expect people to be well informed.
Quote from: "Plu"It probably depends on what you measure them by. Compared to european parties, your democrats are conservatives and your republicans are ultra-extremist-right-wing conservative.
Hell, your republican party blows away what our country considers "right wing extremists" by a mile.
QuoteI wish there was some university study on just the general situation on why the US is so stubborn when it comes to making policies to make are country better. I mean, most people don't even watch/read the news. That's a problem.
And most of those that watch the "news" get it basically straight from the mouth of one of two available political parties, because it's US law that channels can present anything they want and call it "news" because it doesn't actually have to be true. Without free information and reliable news, you can't expect people to be well informed.
Not disputing the fact the democrat party as a whole aren't really liberal, but how is a progressive or even a politician in the CPC conservative compared to the European left wing exactly? As for the news, well, I feel that the news always has bias so how is Europe any different. Now I'll be nice and not make a blatant assumption that all the news isn't Russia Today.
Well it's a matter of perception based on your political stance, of course one side will accuse the other of certain bias and advantages and vice-versa. But of course to say that all Democrats are far-left hippies and to say all Republicans are far-right extremists is simply not true.
The only issue I have with Russia Today is how they cover the Syrian war, they always try to make the rebels look bad and they almost never criticize Assad or anything he does. Russia Today has admitted to receiving funding from Putin's regime and because of that they are basically slave puppets that have to puke out whatever they are told to put out. They will re-run things from Syrian State TV without questioning or analyzing it all so they can demonize people that are fighting back against a murderous regime.
Quote from: "Triple Nine"Back on topic, what annoys me a lot are people who go against there own interests. In all honesty, and I am not going to get in depth, but the stuff that can make America better really doesn't affect me. Whether this stuff happens or not will have a diminished affect on me personally. However, for things such as universal healthcare and cheaper college education it seems a lot of people who could benefit the MOST from this sort of stuff are against the policies that would help enact that. It sucks. I wish there was some university study on just the general situation on why the US is so stubborn when it comes to making policies to make are country better.
That's easy to understand. The majority of US voters aren't well educated or well informed. They're one-issue voters. So if you promise to be anti-abortion in the Bible Belt, you get elected no matter what else you do.
Here in North Carolina, which "opted out of" the federal unemployment extension, a large majority of the unemployed are in favor of the current officeholders - because they're "good Christians" - read: anti-abortion. Forget that the new tax code is anti-people. As long as they're willing to keep women from killing their "unborn children", they'll keep being re-elected.
The founding fathers were right in not granting universal suffrage.
As a male, ever since I started thinking about politics I have always believed that it's not my business as to what a woman does with her body, especially in regards to her being pregnant with a child and then caring for the child afterwards. I don't have a uterus, I don't have their bodies, so it's not my place to point my finger like a self absorbed lunatic and start condemning women to hellfire because they make a choice with their OWN bodies. The big tough guys that attend pro-life rallies have no idea the pain some women have to go through in regards to the whole abortion topic.
The fact that many Americans still believe in condemning women to hellfire for having an abortion goes to show that America still has a long, long way to go. But to be fair there are people like that all over the western world.
Quote from: "frosty"As a male, ever since I started thinking about politics I have always believed that it's not my business as to what a woman does with her body, especially in regards to her being pregnant with a child and then caring for the child afterwards.
It's also none of the business of a female who's not pregnant WITH THAT CHILD. If they want to condemn her to hell (which, IMO, is a bit childish, at best), let them. But trying to prevent her from obtaining a medical procedure that the SCOTUS says is her right to obtain is, and should be, illegal. (Now how do we make passing legislation that makes a mockery of Roe v Wade illegal?)