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Humanities Section => Political/Government General Discussion => Topic started by: stromboli on July 10, 2013, 01:11:04 PM

Title: Atheists The Most Feared Group In America (?)
Post by: stromboli on July 10, 2013, 01:11:04 PM
http://www.policymic.com/articles/53409 ... ca-but-why (http://www.policymic.com/articles/53409/atheists-are-the-most-feared-group-in-america-but-why)

QuoteThe number of those identifying as nonreligious has grown dramatically in the U.S. in recent years. The percentage of American adults not identifying with any religion in Pew Research polls has grown from barely 15% to nearly 20% in the last five years.  Much of this change comes from the fact that just 9% of those 65 and older do not identify with a religion, and they're being replaced by youths with far higher rates.

The amount of hate and distrust toward atheists in America is still astounding. "Atheists as 'Other': Moral Boundaries and Cultural Membership in American Society," a paper by three sociologists at the University of Minnesota, compared perceptions of atheists to those of other groups. Forty percent surveyed said atheists were a group which "Does not At All Agree With My Vision of America," while the next most common response was Muslims at 26%. Nearly 50% said they would disapprove of their child marrying an atheist, and the next two highest groups were Muslims at 34% and African-Americans at 27%.

So when University of Tennessee researchers publish the first comprehensive study into the American irreligious we should pay attention. They stressed that previous studies have lumped everyone not connected to religion into one category, ignoring the myriad differences even among atheists.

The Tennessee study broke down nonbelievers into six groupings:

Intellectual Atheist/Agnostics (IAA). Members of this group tend to seek intellectual pursuits and pursue truth.

Activist Atheist/Agnostics (AAA). Most community oriented and often involved in other progressive causes.

Seeker Agnostics (SA). Are interested in philosophical questions but find themselves unable to definitely know much about the existence or nonexistence of the divine.

Antitheists. They see religion as a destructive force in society.

Non-theists. People who have always been apathetic or uninterested in religion.

Ritual Atheist/Agnostics (RAA). "Find utility in tradition and ritual" like yoga or a family Chanukah celebration.

Intellectual Atheist/Agnostics was the most common grouping. The image of the angry intellectual atheist like Christopher Hitchens may play in to fears about one's child's spouse, but the UT study found personality types of the nonreligious were distributed similarly to those of the religious. The authors suggest the angry atheist stereotype is due to those in the smallest group, antitheists, rating higher than others in anger and dogmatism — and thus attracting the most attention.

If people believe it takes the fear of God to make someone a good family member or American, this report may do little to shake them from their beliefs. But in the long term the greater acknowledgement that atheists don't look that different from theists and that there is a great deal of diversity among the nonreligious can only help.

Intellectual atheists have a nasty habit of thinking that atheists are smarter, more rational, or generally superior to theists. They themselves would also benefit from acknowledging atheists are not a homogeneous group.

We are liked less than Muslims? Wow, that's some hate.

On the last-bolded- part, I do believe that atheists generally are more intelligent than theists based on my personal experience. But I don't think that we are unaware that we are not a homogeneous group, rather the opposite. I believe we are quite well aware of it.

I also wonder how much bias is built into the study. The University of Tennessee, far as I know, is not a hotbed of atheism. Your thoughts?
Title: Re: Atheists The Most Feared Group In America (?)
Post by: surly74 on July 10, 2013, 01:13:37 PM
the bolded part is correct. i do think i am smarter, more rational compared to theists...if that comes across as superiority...fucking deal with it churchy
Title: Re: Atheists The Most Feared Group In America (?)
Post by: stromboli on July 10, 2013, 01:16:42 PM
Quote from: "surly74"the bolded part is correct. i do think i am smarter, more rational compared to theists...if that comes across as superiority...fucking deal with it churchy

Exactly. I've got a long life and much experience to compare to, and I've found more good sense and rational thinking here on the forum than just about anywhere else I've been. And yeah, I agree- deal with it.
Title: Re: Atheists The Most Feared Group In America (?)
Post by: GSOgymrat on July 10, 2013, 01:28:35 PM
I think I'm a Seeker Agnostic, although one can never be too sure about these things.
Title: Re: Atheists The Most Feared Group In America (?)
Post by: Youssuf Ramadan on July 10, 2013, 01:36:26 PM
Quote from: "surly74"the bolded part is correct. i do think i am smarter, more rational compared to theists...if that comes across as superiority...fucking deal with it churchy

lol   =D>
Title: Re: Atheists The Most Feared Group In America (?)
Post by: stromboli on July 10, 2013, 01:36:41 PM
I've progressed through the ranks. I'm probably an antitheist now, because I see more and more how damaging religion is to society.
Title: Re: Atheists The Most Feared Group In America (?)
Post by: Solitary on July 10, 2013, 01:41:17 PM
I'm not prejudice, I hate everybody.  :shock:  Not really, but after a life time of seeing what religion has brought to the world for thousands of years and even now, I hate religion and the evil it is parading around as something good. They're against birth control while millions of children and adults are starving to death. They are getting more and more involved in politics and education. They deny science and the good it can do based on superstitious nonsense thinking they have knowledge when they only have ignorance.

 The religious have for the most part supported every war while saying killing is a sin. The religious leaders have always demanded obedience to their dogma to control people, even in their bedrooms. They have made religion sacred so it can't be challenged because it would make the magic zombie and his invisible dad pissed off. Yeah, I do think I can reason better than they can, even if I'm not what they, or anyone else, considers smart.  :evil:  Solitary
Title: Re: Atheists The Most Feared Group In America (?)
Post by: Youssuf Ramadan on July 10, 2013, 01:47:09 PM
Religion is a social control tool, amongst other things.  Do Xtians fear atheism more than religions such as Islam because even the Muslims have similarities to Xtians in terms of having an imaginary friend, a book, a building and a bunch of autopilot rent-a-quotes and observances?  Do they think that the US is going to dissolve into anarchy if atheism becomes the norm? Is there a part of a Christian that realises their religion is a bit stupid?
Title: Re: Atheists The Most Feared Group In America (?)
Post by: surly74 on July 10, 2013, 01:51:32 PM
that's why xtians call atheism a religion. they can't fathom not having a belief system that defines them and that is scary to them. at least with islam, which they think it's different, has that same framework as they do.

they can't grasp that really, atheism is nothing.
Title: Re: Atheists The Most Feared Group In America (?)
Post by: SGOS on July 10, 2013, 01:58:52 PM
Quote from: "Youssuf Ramadan"Religion is a social control tool, amongst other things.  Do Xtians fear atheism more than religions such as Islam because even the Muslims have similarities to Xtians in terms of having an imaginary friend, a book, a building and a bunch of autopilot rent-a-quotes and observances?  Do they think that the US is going to dissolve into anarchy if atheism becomes the norm? Is there a part of a Christian that realises their religion is a bit stupid?
I've often heard the expression, "Well at least you believe in something," from theist types.  So yeah, I can understand why Muslims may be less threatening.  If you believe in something, at least you're on the right track:  "Eventually, you might believe in my God."  This is very common in Alcoholics Anonymous.  Just pick out something, anything to be you're higher power.  A doorknob is often used as an example to get the point across.  As silly as it is, these people say it in all sincerity,... or so they say.  I have my doubts sometimes.  Even faking a belief in a higher power is desirable in AA.  "Fake it until you make it," is an oft heard expression.
Title: Re: Atheists The Most Feared Group In America (?)
Post by: Solitary on July 10, 2013, 02:05:53 PM
How is it decided one is an alcoholic? Is it one drink too many, or something else? Is it when drinking controls one's life like religion does? Or is it just a crutch or slow form of suicide? I'm being sincere with this and want answers. Solitary
Title: Re: Atheists The Most Feared Group In America (?)
Post by: surly74 on July 10, 2013, 02:15:12 PM
Quote from: "Solitary"How is it decided one is an alcoholic? Is it one drink too many, or something else? Is it when drinking controls one's life like religion does? Or is it just a crutch or slow form of suicide? I'm being sincere with this and want answers. Solitary


controlling your life is a big thing. i'm struck but the connection to religion...i've never heard it put like you just did. I have heard that religion is a substitute for alcohol in the recovery process but for whaterver reason never thought in those destructive terms.
Title: Re: Atheists The Most Feared Group In America (?)
Post by: SGOS on July 10, 2013, 02:26:31 PM
Quote from: "Solitary"How is it decided one is an alcoholic? Is it one drink too many, or something else? Is it when drinking controls one's life like religion does? Or is it just a crutch or slow form of suicide? I'm being sincere with this and want answers. Solitary
I don't think that question has an easy answer.  Even in AA the subject comes up, and while AA members identify themselves as alcoholic, they will often admit that they don't know what that means.  I remember one guy saying he often wondered whether he was an alcoholic or just a "slob".  He said it didn't make much difference to him because his life was out of control, and he couldn't stop drinking.  Well, he did stop and I think he's about 20 years without a drink at this time.  He's the only one from AA that I still keep in touch with.
Title: Re: Atheists The Most Feared Group In America (?)
Post by: josephpalazzo on July 10, 2013, 03:10:18 PM
Truth is the most potent weapon. That's why theists fear us.
Title: Re: Atheists The Most Feared Group In America (?)
Post by: AllPurposeAtheist on July 10, 2013, 03:12:38 PM
Intelligence has spit to do with jack. You're no smarter than the average theist just for merely not believing in gods, but you're extraordinary at mentally playing with your dick ïf you really think you're smarter because of it.
I'm not sticking up for religion, but I surely know quite a few stupid cocksuckers who wear the atheist banner. The exact same holds true of rolly holers. They're just as good at mental masturbation and claiming some superior high ground. Realize our differences aren't all that much.. Plenty of people, in fact more theists go to college than atheists..
Title: Re: Atheists The Most Feared Group In America (?)
Post by: surly74 on July 10, 2013, 03:15:35 PM
Quote from: "josephpalazzo"Truth is the most potent weapon. That's why theists fear us.

they fear truth? or they have a different version of it?
Title: Re: Atheists The Most Feared Group In America (?)
Post by: Solitary on July 10, 2013, 04:09:36 PM
Quote from: "surly74"
Quote from: "Solitary"How is it decided one is an alcoholic? Is it one drink too many, or something else? Is it when drinking controls one's life like religion does? Or is it just a crutch or slow form of suicide? I'm being sincere with this and want answers. Solitary


controlling your life is a big thing. i'm struck but the connection to religion...i've never heard it put like you just did. I have heard that religion is a substitute for alcohol in the recovery process but for whaterver reason never thought in those destructive terms.


Thanks for answering my stupid questions!

Both of my parents were alcoholics, and drug users, that was legal when they were young. I think it was a way to escape they learned from the Great Depression. The ultimate escape from an insane world is suicide. Life can really be a bitch at times, and using drugs or alcohol for that reason and not for recreation can be destructive. When I've been in really bad times I have used alcohol or weed to relax, but when it no longer worked I'd quit.

However, I do believe there is a chemical imbalance that causes drug or alcohol addiction. I've had PTSD for most of my life and finally got treatment for it. I can't believe a little pill can make such a difference. It supplies a hormone or chemical that was out of balance in my brain. So much for a soul that isn't created by the brain.  :shock: Good luck with must be a problem if you go to AA with their religious BS. Have you ever talked to your doctor, not psychologist, about something you could take to help? Pharmacology has come a long ways even in the last few years.
Title: Re: Atheists The Most Feared Group In America (?)
Post by: Jesus on July 10, 2013, 04:15:56 PM
Quote from: "stromboli"Intellectual atheists have a nasty habit of thinking that atheists are smarter, more rational, or generally superior to theists. They themselves would also benefit from acknowledging atheists are not a homogeneous group.


Intelligent? Meh, perhaps rational is a better word choice. One doesn't need intelligence to rule out the inconsistencies in religion.
Title: Re: Atheists The Most Feared Group In America (?)
Post by: Solitary on July 10, 2013, 04:24:43 PM
Oh what the hell does Jesus know? :roll:  Just kidding! Good point! Most people think intelligence is how much you know. I agree with Einstein: "Intelligence is what is left after you have forgotten everything you have learned." This is the very reason he would never take an IQ test. Look how many Republican candidates that ran who are well educated and have even gone to more than one college and say the dumbest things---"Drill baby drill!"  Or that are Republicans:


10. Chuck Winder (R-ID): "I would hope that when a woman goes in to a physician with a rape issue, that physician will indeed ask her about perhaps her marriage, was this pregnancy caused by normal relations in a marriage or was it truly caused by a rape. I assume that's part of the counseling that goes on." - March 2012

 9. Rick Santorum: "I think the right approach is to accept this horribly created — in the sense of rape — but nevertheless a gift in a very broken way, the gift of human life, and accept what God has given to you... rape victims should make the best of a bad situation." - January, 2012

8. Mitt Romney: "I believe in an America where millions of Americans believe in an America that's the America millions of Americans believe in. That's the America I love." – January 2012

7. Mitt Romney: "I'm not concerned about the very poor. We have a safety net there." — January 2012

6. Roger Rivard (R-WI): "Some girls rape easy." – October 2012

5. Mitt Romney: "I went to a number of women's groups and said 'Can you help us find folks?' and they brought us whole binders full of women." —October, 2012

4. Richard Mourdock (R-IN): "I think even when life begins in that horrible situation of rape, that it is something that God intended to happen." – October 2012

3. Todd Akin (R-MO): "If it's a legitimate rape, the female body has ways of shutting that whole thing down" - mid 2012 Senate Campaign

2. Mitt Romney: "As president, I will create 12 million new jobs." —Second presidential debate

1. Mitt Romney: "Government does not create jobs. Government does not create jobs." — 45 minutes later (Oct. 16, 2012)

Honorable Mention:
I cannot drop this subject without giving honorable mention to one of my favorite Romney quotes of 2012:

Mitt Romney: Mocking a group of NASCAR fans wearing plastic ponchos, "I like those fancy raincoats you bought. Really sprung for the big bucks."





rollin:  Solitary
Title: Re: Atheists The Most Feared Group In America (?)
Post by: josephpalazzo on July 10, 2013, 05:07:04 PM
Quote from: "surly74"
Quote from: "josephpalazzo"Truth is the most potent weapon. That's why theists fear us.

they fear truth? or they have a different version of it?

Well of course they have their own version. It goes without saying. But their leaders always fear that we will put a dent on their truth and consequently draw their members away. So it is always imperative for the leadership, be it the minister, the pope, or the slew of apologists, to guard against such a possible hemorrhage.
Title: Re: Atheists The Most Feared Group In America (?)
Post by: Plu on July 10, 2013, 05:25:22 PM
Quote from: "Solitary"How is it decided one is an alcoholic? Is it one drink too many, or something else? Is it when drinking controls one's life like religion does? Or is it just a crutch or slow form of suicide? I'm being sincere with this and want answers. Solitary

There will never be a good way to decide when one is considered an alcoholic until society reaches the point where it realises that alcohol is a hard-drug on par with cocaine and not some jokey-fun liquid.

Ask yourself: how much cocain does one need to use to be considered an addict? I think it pales compared to how much alcohol people we consider "regular people" consume.
Title: Re: Atheists The Most Feared Group In America (?)
Post by: Seabear on July 10, 2013, 05:35:43 PM
My theory is that on some level or another, theists fear the implications of atheists rather than atheists themselves.

Specifically, the implications should we be right. In many cases, they have lived their entire lives being convinced that something is true, and that its evil to even question its veracity in any way. And here we are, doing just that, in very effective ways, in some cases. And, without any lightning bolts from heaven.

I think that most people are subject to rationality, at least to some extent. Our logic has to raise some uncomfortable questions in all but the most obtuse theist. It's emotionally disturbing for them - what if maybe, just maybe, we are right? Everything they have lived their whole lives believing and emotionally relying upon MIGHT just be a lie. It's not hard to see how that sort of emotional insecurity could result in hate.
Title: Re: Atheists The Most Feared Group In America (?)
Post by: Jmpty on July 10, 2013, 05:36:01 PM
If you continue to do something, IE, drink alcohol, or use drugs, that causes you problems, you have a problem. It's not how much, or how often, but what happens when you use these chemicals.
Title: Re: Atheists The Most Feared Group In America (?)
Post by: Plu on July 10, 2013, 05:52:05 PM
Quote from: "Jmpty"If you continue to do something, IE, drink alcohol, or use drugs, that causes you problems, you have a problem. It's not how much, or how often, but what happens when you use these chemicals.

By that logic, a lot of people are alcoholics, even though most of them don't consider themselves to be alcoholics, nor does society.
Title: Re: Atheists The Most Feared Group In America (?)
Post by: Colanth on July 10, 2013, 07:37:02 PM
Quote from: "stromboli"I also wonder how much bias is built into the study. The University of Tennessee, far as I know, is not a hotbed of atheism. Your thoughts?
Quite a lot of bias, since most of it is written from the Christian perspective.  For instance, it's not that atheists are smarter, it's that people more able to think rationally don't accept religion as sensible.  The average intelligence of atheists (IOW, averaging the intelligence of all atheists, if that were possible) is probably higher than the average intelligence of all theists, but Christianity reverses cause and effect, the same way this study does.

BTW, I've seen the Christian fear of not believing in any kind of god - some of them just can't fathom it and some, while they can accept it - at least intellectually - are terrified by it.  One fundy actually told me that claiming to not believe in any supernatural being is a form of terrorism (because hearing it terrified him).
Title: Re: Atheists The Most Feared Group In America (?)
Post by: Solitary on July 10, 2013, 07:57:58 PM
Quote from: "Jmpty"If you continue to do something, IE, drink alcohol, or use drugs, that causes you problems, you have a problem. It's not how much, or how often, but what happens when you use these chemicals.



 :-k  You may be on to something there. I never thought of it like that. I do believe there are addictive personalities, and that fits right in with that hypothesis. Solitary
Title: Re: Atheists The Most Feared Group In America (?)
Post by: stromboli on July 10, 2013, 09:25:27 PM
I've been involved with a few xtian sects and Mormons both, and there are some intelligent people there, many smarter than me. Many people live in religion because it is easier than confronting it. I have always believed the truth is that far more people are agnostic or nonbelievers than studies show, because a large number of them don't reveal their true beliefs.

My experience is that most people tend to ride the tide, so to speak, rather than buck it, simply because it is easier. In my case it took a fairly drastic situation to confront my beliefs. Lacking that, people don't bother. An example is the fact that more than 40% of Mormons are inactive- almost half, even though their numbers are counted as members. They just don't care.

I also believe that the numbers of atheists are rising partly because it no longer carries the stigma it once did, and people who were neutral are less afraid to identify as one.
Title: Re: Atheists The Most Feared Group In America (?)
Post by: Jmpty on July 10, 2013, 09:42:25 PM
Quote from: "Plu"
Quote from: "Jmpty"If you continue to do something, IE, drink alcohol, or use drugs, that causes you problems, you have a problem. It's not how much, or how often, but what happens when you use these chemicals.

By that logic, a lot of people are alcoholics, even though most of them don't consider themselves to be alcoholics, nor does society.

That's correct. A lot of people are. It's somewhat accepted in society to drink till you puke, crash your car, beat your wife, spend the rent money at the bar, get divorced because your spouse can't deal with your drunk ass, lose your job, etc. Some people continue this pattern until they die from it.
Title: Re: Atheists The Most Feared Group In America (?)
Post by: Jesus on July 11, 2013, 01:43:40 AM
Quote from: "Solitary"Oh what the hell does Jesus know? :roll:  Just kidding! Good point! Most people think intelligence is how much you know. I agree with Einstein: "Intelligence is what is left after you have forgotten everything you have learned."


I completely agree. There are distinct differences when comparing intelligence, wisdom, and rationalism. Intelligence is perhaps the one that is most straightforward; it merely pertains to the amount of information one has in his or her mind, whilst wisdom is the application of intelligence during specific times. Oh, and rationalism falls in between the lines of common sense and intelligence.



Oh, and I remember reading that Einstein was a mediocre student at his school, earning average marks and performing poorly in many subject areas.
Title: Re: Atheists The Most Feared Group In America (?)
Post by: Plu on July 11, 2013, 02:27:47 AM
Quote from: "Jmpty"
Quote from: "Plu"
Quote from: "Jmpty"If you continue to do something, IE, drink alcohol, or use drugs, that causes you problems, you have a problem. It's not how much, or how often, but what happens when you use these chemicals.

By that logic, a lot of people are alcoholics, even though most of them don't consider themselves to be alcoholics, nor does society.

That's correct. A lot of people are. It's somewhat accepted in society to drink till you puke, crash your car, beat your wife, spend the rent money at the bar, get divorced because your spouse can't deal with your drunk ass, lose your job, etc. Some people continue this pattern until they die from it.

At least we agree there :) So many people still see alcohol as some harmless pastime.
Title: Re: Atheists The Most Feared Group In America (?)
Post by: surly74 on July 11, 2013, 07:48:29 AM
Quote from: "josephpalazzo"
Quote from: "surly74"
Quote from: "josephpalazzo"Truth is the most potent weapon. That's why theists fear us.

they fear truth? or they have a different version of it?

Well of course they have their own version. It goes without saying. But their leaders always fear that we will put a dent on their truth and consequently draw their members away. So it is always imperative for the leadership, be it the minister, the pope, or the slew of apologists, to guard against such a possible hemorrhage.

the reason i asked that question is because to me, the two contradict each other. if they have their own version of the truth and really believe it then they need not worry about what atheists think...hence they don't fear our truth. I don't even know what truth is. facts are one thing, truth is another.

to me, the "they fear the truth" is the same as George Bush saying terrorists hate America because they hate freedom. If you said facts are the most potent weapon then i would agree but not truth.
Title: Re: Atheists The Most Feared Group In America (?)
Post by: Plu on July 11, 2013, 07:59:58 AM
They fear our truth because it produces results, and theirs does not.

Though mostly, I think they fear letting go. For most people it's really hard to let go of something they've spent a lot of time on, because it means having to admit that it was wrong and your time was wasted. Most people would rather seek excuses to stop themselves from having to admit their time was wasted (while constantly wasting more time) over accepting their loss and moving on.

It's a psychological principle that's happily abused by many companies, not just in the religious and psychic nonsense sector, but also amongst those who deal in other addictions ( like certain brands of games like the MMO and facebook type, which thrive on making people think they've accomplished something and work on their fear of admitting to themselves that we've just been wasting their time since the start.)

Not many people hear "forget everything you've been living for the last 20/30 years, it's all bull. And get ready to start learning everything again from scratch! Only this time, everything is way more complicated." and then think "jolly good idea!".
Title: Re: Atheists The Most Feared Group In America (?)
Post by: surly74 on July 11, 2013, 08:28:20 AM
Quote from: "Plu"They fear our truth because it produces results, and theirs does not.

Though mostly, I think they fear letting go. For most people it's really hard to let go of something they've spent a lot of time on, because it means having to admit that it was wrong and your time was wasted. Most people would rather seek excuses to stop themselves from having to admit their time was wasted (while constantly wasting more time) over accepting their loss and moving on.

It's a psychological principle that's happily abused by many companies, not just in the religious and psychic nonsense sector, but also amongst those who deal in other addictions ( like certain brands of games like the MMO and facebook type, which thrive on making people think they've accomplished something and work on their fear of admitting to themselves that we've just been wasting their time since the start.)

Not many people hear "forget everything you've been living for the last 20/30 years, it's all bull. And get ready to start learning everything again from scratch! Only this time, everything is way more complicated." and then think "jolly good idea!".

i've heard enough stories about prayer and people who think it works. on the other hand my parents have been going to the same church now for 30 years and I know neither of them believe. my father comes from a mennonite family and it's more to keep up appearances. I was joking with my mother and we both wondered if the entire family did that, no one actually believed anymore but still went to make it look like they do...they could all just sleep in on Sundays.

I do agree with the letting go. For me the hardest part would have to be people that you trusted lied to you.
Title: Re: Atheists The Most Feared Group In America (?)
Post by: SGOS on July 11, 2013, 08:37:46 AM
Quote from: "surly74"my parents have been going to the same church now for 30 years and I know neither of them believe. my father comes from a mennonite family and it's more to keep up appearances. I was joking with my mother and we both wondered if the entire family did that, no one actually believed anymore but still went to make it look like they do...they could all just sleep in on Sundays.

Well, it's step in the right direction.  I tend to cut people some slack when they aren't just blowing smoke up their own asses.  For some reason, strange behavior is more acceptable to me when people understand what they are doing to some extent. :-D
Title: Re: Atheists The Most Feared Group In America (?)
Post by: surly74 on July 11, 2013, 08:54:52 AM
i've seen my father quietly fight over this. they (parents) used to live in a small town where it would be noticed if you weren't there on Sundays. I haven't live in that town for 20 plus years, been closer to 30 years that I haven't got to a church service and still have people say to me...why don't you come back some sunday.

speaking with my mother the biggest hurdle to my father giving up religion completely is that his mother died young and one of the things he has held on to is the chance to see her in heaven again. she died just after I was born and he was only 20 (mennonites got married and had kids at a young age...at least to me).  his father passed away 20 years ago and i don't think if affected him much...but his mother was a different story.

but that's religion in a nut shell and he's realizing it...be told exactly what you want to hear regardless of it's reality.
Title: Re: Atheists The Most Feared Group In America (?)
Post by: Brian37 on July 11, 2013, 09:48:39 AM
Now to these idiots who needlessly fear atheists, they would be horrified at what Jefferson, a deist would have to say about religion and atheists.

"Preachers dread the advance of science like witches fear daylight"

"whence therefore arises the morality of the atheist? It is idol to say, as some do, that no such thing exists".

"Question with boldness even the existence of a god, for if there be one surely he would pay more homage to reason than to that of blindfolded fear"

The theists SHOULD fear us, but not for the reasons they think. They should like anyone who once believed the earth was flat should fear their own credulity and willful ignorance.

But in no way should a theist fear us as wanting fascism. It is utter bullshit to assume because someone is an atheist, to say that they cannot value pluralism and human rights. It is also bullshit to assume because someone is godless that they are evil or not to be trusted.
Title: Re: Atheists The Most Feared Group In America (?)
Post by: josephpalazzo on July 11, 2013, 10:35:51 AM
Quote from: "surly74"
Quote from: "josephpalazzo"
Quote from: "surly74"they fear truth? or they have a different version of it?

Well of course they have their own version. It goes without saying. But their leaders always fear that we will put a dent on their truth and consequently draw their members away. So it is always imperative for the leadership, be it the minister, the pope, or the slew of apologists, to guard against such a possible hemorrhage.

the reason i asked that question is because to me, the two contradict each other. if they have their own version of the truth and really believe it then they need not worry about what atheists think...hence they don't fear our truth. I don't even know what truth is. facts are one thing, truth is another.

to me, the "they fear the truth" is the same as George Bush saying terrorists hate America because they hate freedom. If you said facts are the most potent weapon then i would agree but not truth.

It's undeniable that facts are important. But it doesn't end there. If you look at science for instance, we also have hypothesis and theory to expain the data. We also do that in our private life. When we observe the facts, we often interpret those facts. Now whether we do a good job at this is another question. So when I use the word "truth", I'm talking not only about the facts, but the interpretation of those facts. Example: a christian reads the bible and concludes that it's true. I read the bible, and conclude it's nonsense. We both look at the same facts, but came out with different interpretations.
Title: Re: Atheists The Most Feared Group In America (?)
Post by: Brian37 on July 11, 2013, 10:44:39 AM
Quote from: "Plu"They fear our truth because it produces results, and theirs does not.

Though mostly, I think they fear letting go. For most people it's really hard to let go of something they've spent a lot of time on, because it means having to admit that it was wrong and your time was wasted. Most people would rather seek excuses to stop themselves from having to admit their time was wasted (while constantly wasting more time) over accepting their loss and moving on.

It's a psychological principle that's happily abused by many companies, not just in the religious and psychic nonsense sector, but also amongst those who deal in other addictions ( like certain brands of games like the MMO and facebook type, which thrive on making people think they've accomplished something and work on their fear of admitting to themselves that we've just been wasting their time since the start.)

Not many people hear "forget everything you've been living for the last 20/30 years, it's all bull. And get ready to start learning everything again from scratch! Only this time, everything is way more complicated." and then think "jolly good idea!".

Thats it, throughout our species evolution, we fear change. Once we get used to a perception that creates social order and stability, even if that perception is false, the structure it provides is hard to let go of.

Just like men used to fear women voting. Just like white men used to fear blacks using the same water fountains. Stupid crap certainly. But since we are a social species, we can and do often center our socializing around very bad guesses.
Title: Re: Atheists The Most Feared Group In America (?)
Post by: Plu on July 11, 2013, 10:48:50 AM
Myeah. Often I consider it scary that people can't let go of stuff that's obviously wrong. Other day I consider it scary that I can drop just about anything without thinking twice. Both have their own way of being scary.
Title: Re: Atheists The Most Feared Group In America (?)
Post by: GSOgymrat on July 11, 2013, 11:51:50 AM
I can understand why theists would consider atheism frightening. Rejecting the perspective of the dominant group often makes individuals appear untrustworthy and atheism indicates what a person doesn't believe and leaves to the imagination what he or she actually does believe, which could be any number of ungodly things.
Title: Re: Atheists The Most Feared Group In America (?)
Post by: Colanth on July 11, 2013, 10:36:24 PM
Quote from: "GSOgymrat"I can understand why theists would consider atheism frightening. Rejecting the perspective of the dominant group often makes individuals appear untrustworthy and atheism indicates what a person doesn't believe and leaves to the imagination what he or she actually does believe, which could be any number of ungodly things.
We don't believe in gods but, like theists, we believe and disbelieve in many things.  How many Christians or Jews believe that it's okay to sell your daughter into slavery?  You don't have to be an atheist to see how wrong that is.  They;re afraid, mainly, because not believing in ANY supernatural being is beyond their comprehension and, like all children, it's not knowing that frightens them.
Title: Re: Atheists The Most Feared Group In America (?)
Post by: Jmpty on July 12, 2013, 11:39:55 AM
Sheep don't know that they're sheep, they only know that they are afraid, and only find solace in the flock.
Title: Re: Atheists The Most Feared Group In America (?)
Post by: josephpalazzo on July 13, 2013, 07:42:58 AM
Quote from: "Jmpty"Sheep don't know that they're sheep, they only know that they are afraid, and only find solace in the flock.


Prove it.

 :-D
Title: Re: Atheists The Most Feared Group In America (?)
Post by: WitchSabrina on July 13, 2013, 07:47:51 AM
Quote from: "Solitary"Oh what the hell does Jesus know? :roll:  Just kidding! Good point! Most people think intelligence is how much you know. I agree with Einstein: "Intelligence is what is left after you have forgotten everything you have learned." This is the very reason he would never take an IQ test. Look how many Republican candidates that ran who are well educated and have even gone to more than one college and say the dumbest things---"Drill baby drill!"  Or that are Republicans:


10. Chuck Winder (R-ID): "I would hope that when a woman goes in to a physician with a rape issue, that physician will indeed ask her about perhaps her marriage, was this pregnancy caused by normal relations in a marriage or was it truly caused by a rape. I assume that's part of the counseling that goes on." - March 2012

 9. Rick Santorum: "I think the right approach is to accept this horribly created — in the sense of rape — but nevertheless a gift in a very broken way, the gift of human life, and accept what God has given to you... rape victims should make the best of a bad situation." - January, 2012

8. Mitt Romney: "I believe in an America where millions of Americans believe in an America that's the America millions of Americans believe in. That's the America I love." – January 2012

7. Mitt Romney: "I'm not concerned about the very poor. We have a safety net there." — January 2012

6. Roger Rivard (R-WI): "Some girls rape easy." – October 2012

5. Mitt Romney: "I went to a number of women's groups and said 'Can you help us find folks?' and they brought us whole binders full of women." —October, 2012

4. Richard Mourdock (R-IN): "I think even when life begins in that horrible situation of rape, that it is something that God intended to happen." – October 2012

3. Todd Akin (R-MO): "If it's a legitimate rape, the female body has ways of shutting that whole thing down" - mid 2012 Senate Campaign

2. Mitt Romney: "As president, I will create 12 million new jobs." —Second presidential debate

1. Mitt Romney: "Government does not create jobs. Government does not create jobs." — 45 minutes later (Oct. 16, 2012)

Honorable Mention:
I cannot drop this subject without giving honorable mention to one of my favorite Romney quotes of 2012:

Mitt Romney: Mocking a group of NASCAR fans wearing plastic ponchos, "I like those fancy raincoats you bought. Really sprung for the big bucks."





rollin:  Solitary

 :rollin:  :rollin:  :rollin:
Title: Re: Atheists The Most Feared Group In America (?)
Post by: aitm on July 13, 2013, 08:52:11 AM
The reason is far simpler than many suggest, imo. When you tell everyone and their dog that you believe in something, even if in the back of your mind you understand it to be a mite on the bull-shit side, it would be real embarrassing for you to find out you have been made an idiot. Now take an entire country, and show them how stupid they are? Meh. Its all about being embarrassed about being wrong and not being able to prove you're right. They have justification right now only by numbers, its a battle you can fight with education and reason, but as you have seen trying it by force is a long battle.
Title: Re: Atheists The Most Feared Group In America (?)
Post by: SGOS on July 13, 2013, 09:06:07 AM
Quote from: "aitm"The reason is far simpler than many suggest, imo. When you tell everyone and their dog that you believe in something, even if in the back of your mind you understand it to be a mite on the bull-shit side, it would be real embarrassing for you to find out you have been made an idiot. Now take an entire country, and show them how stupid they are? Meh. Its all about being embarrassed about being wrong and not being able to prove you're right. They have justification right now only by numbers, its a battle you can fight with education and reason, but as you have seen trying it by force is a long battle.
The first time I read or even heard of the Emperor's New Clothes was maybe in the third or fourth grade.  I was enchanted with the story.  It might be my first recollection of understanding a metaphor, although I certainly would not have known the word at the time.  I realized that it could apply to many situations, but my first thought was that the author was making a statement about belief in a god.

There's something to be said for going with your original instincts.  Not all the time, of course, but there's a warning there about getting carried away with nonsense.  Grownups were falling all over themselves trying to make a falsehood into a truth.  But to the little boy, the fool was naked.  But I don't recall him putting down the adults for their nonsense.  I just remember him exclaiming, "The King is naked!"  I still love that story.
Title: Re: Atheists The Most Feared Group In America (?)
Post by: AllPurposeAtheist on July 13, 2013, 11:00:29 AM
You know.. I'm kind of glad these fools fear my atheism. I'm not a real intimidating guy, but if they want to fear me then great! We should capitalize on that fear because fear does indeed sell. I should write a book, 'Fear Me Motherfuckers For I Don't Buy Your Bull!'
It'll sell millons of copies and the federal government will put me in witness protection. :)
Title: Re: Atheists The Most Feared Group In America (?)
Post by: Savior2006 on July 14, 2013, 05:15:48 PM
Santorum admits that being called a bigot because of his own stupidity and hatred of gays is a badge of honor. Why should I think anything less of my atheism? People being morbidly afraid of a group of people that don't see fit to preach to them day in and day out is fucking rich.
Title: Re: Atheists The Most Feared Group In America (?)
Post by: Colanth on July 15, 2013, 05:41:03 PM
All theists believe that doing what their sect believes is a badge of honor - even if what they're doing is despicable to sane people.  If they didn't, they wouldn't be members of that sect.
Title: Re: Atheists The Most Feared Group In America (?)
Post by: JI_Joe on July 17, 2013, 02:56:37 PM
I take offense to the idiot Theist in the the first page with the "NO your not smarter because you don't just believe in a invisible friend for adults in fact your not smarter than me at all" aditude. You are stupid if you believe in some thing solely because you believe in it.  Look I will break it down.
 You have no rational basis, but you go on doing it any way. That is not being smart. If I turn the cold knob on the sink *believing* that I will get hot water, then I am an stupid. If you continue doing then I will be completely justified in thinking you are an Idiot.

Theist have their religious conventions to fall back on when life presents a problem. Not so with Atheist's, once you make that first mental leap  you must continue using logic and as long as you do that then even Catholicism seems as dumb as the hunter gatherer tribes general worshiping of the wild animals and every thing else around them religion.  
  When life presents a Atheist a problem we must figure it out, use our brains and come to a solution. Other wise the problem will keep presenting its self and if my own personal experience is any thing to go on. It will be worse, Ignoring the drout that is now encompassing my state for example. If your a Theist farmer and your fall back position is "just Pray and hope God will help" then you will get no rain, no crops, no money and you will run out of options.  An Atheist Farmer would conclude the drout would indeed continue and he would have to move to a area with better conditions before practicing his trade.  
    One has their brain in the "Off mode" the other has their brain in the "On Mode" but both are suppose to be equal in intelligence? I don't think so.