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Extraordinary Claims => Religion General Discussion => Topic started by: Cassia on November 09, 2021, 08:04:07 PM

Title: Post Pandemic Anti-Religious Backlash?
Post by: Cassia on November 09, 2021, 08:04:07 PM
There is a possibility that many younger folks will look back the recent virus related events and decide that religion was worse than useless. I am discouraged because you would think this site would be gaining some new young members....maybe that is because of reddit et al. Whaddaya all think? Are the thumping evangelicals desperate, clinging to Trump just because they fast becoming irrelevant? Should I hold hope for a better mindset in the near future?
Title: Re: Post Pandemic Anti-Religious Backlash?
Post by: Dark Lightning on November 09, 2021, 08:31:45 PM
My three sons are atheists. They live their lives, but do not visit atheist sites, ever. Is it possible that they feel no need to "go run a spear through a YEC"? Idunno. I should/will ask them. I gave up arguing with the religious well over a decade ago.
Title: Re: Post Pandemic Anti-Religious Backlash?
Post by: Hydra009 on November 09, 2021, 09:36:32 PM
Are the thumping evangelicals desperate, clinging to Trump just because they fast becoming irrelevant? Should I hold hope for a better mindset in the near future?[/color]
I mean, you could if you really want to, but looking at the numbers (https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/09/15/more-white-americans-adopted-than-shed-evangelical-label-during-trump-presidency-especially-his-supporters/), you probably shouldn't.

Edit: after looking at other numbers (https://www.prri.org/research/2020-census-of-american-religion/), maybe you should.  Evangelicals are disproportionately older, have been declining in various ways (person, woman, man, camera, tv), and most startling of all, have even declined as a percentage of the Republican base, which is really telling considering they have such a cultist relationship with the GOP that it's hard to find them in sane company, even if they were invited.
Title: Re: Post Pandemic Anti-Religious Backlash?
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on November 10, 2021, 08:12:37 AM
♫That Old Time Religion♫ is tenacious. Despite thousands of years of producing only babble, never actual proof, it still hangs on.
Title: Re: Post Pandemic Anti-Religious Backlash?
Post by: Mike Cl on November 10, 2021, 08:21:53 AM
There is a possibility that many younger folks will look back the recent virus related events and decide that religion was worse than useless. I am discouraged because you would think this site would be gaining some new young members....maybe that is because of reddit et al. Whaddaya all think? Are the thumping evangelicals desperate, clinging to Trump just because they fast becoming irrelevant? Should I hold hope for a better mindset in the near future?
The numbers are promising.  And logically, that should lead to the last gasp decline for the evangelical movement.  Yet, how often has the logical or reasonable happened lately? 
Title: Re: Post Pandemic Anti-Religious Backlash?
Post by: aitm on November 10, 2021, 08:27:07 AM
Forums cannot compete with other forms of social media in terms of instant response. I think “our” time is coming, prolly sooner than we think.
Title: Re: Post Pandemic Anti-Religious Backlash?
Post by: Cassia on November 10, 2021, 08:57:18 AM
The numbers are promising.  And logically, that should lead to the last gasp decline for the evangelical movement.  Yet, how often has the logical or reasonable happened lately?
Evangelicals are way louder than moderates and we hear of them all the time in the media and politics. They probably turn some people off from religion altogether. The 'god is love' moderates not so much. In some ways this giant voting block of moderates are more concerning to marginalized people than the extremists.

The religious-light, aka the 'spiritual' group really piss me off. I am embarrassed to say I was one of them for a long time. They don't believe scripture at all but refuse to give up the magic. Just Believe !!! As if 'just believing' is some positive trait. Frustrating. Religion poisons everything in all it's manifestations and levels of adherence. Imaging if it never existed. We would be like 5,000 years more advanced.
Title: Re: Post Pandemic Anti-Religious Backlash?
Post by: Cassia on November 10, 2021, 08:58:40 AM
Forums cannot compete with other forms of social media in terms of instant response. I think “our” time is coming, prolly sooner than we think.
yeah....that is probably right.
Title: Re: Post Pandemic Anti-Religious Backlash?
Post by: Mike Cl on November 10, 2021, 10:05:17 AM
Evangelicals are way louder than moderates and we hear of them all the time in the media and politics. They probably turn some people off from religion altogether. The 'god is love' moderates not so much. In some ways this giant voting block of moderates are more concerning to marginalized people than the extremists.

The religious-light, aka the 'spiritual' group really piss me off. I am embarrassed to say I was one of them for a long time. They don't believe scripture at all but refuse to give up the magic. Just Believe !!! As if 'just believing' is some positive trait. Frustrating. Religion poisons everything in all it's manifestations and levels of adherence. Imaging if it never existed. We would be like 5,000 years more advanced.
Been there and done that. :) As for the rest--yep, yep, yep!
Title: Re: Post Pandemic Anti-Religious Backlash?
Post by: SGOS on November 10, 2021, 05:29:02 PM
There is a possibility that many younger folks will look back the recent virus related events and decide that religion was worse than useless.
I've wondered the same thing, but I am no longer surprised by the depth of ignorance in society, and the Religious Right didn't get that way by being rational or even just plain thoughtful.  What I do observe is that we are going down the shitter as things just keep getting more and more insane.
Title: Re: Post Pandemic Anti-Religious Backlash?
Post by: GSOgymrat on November 19, 2021, 01:11:01 PM
I am discouraged because you would think this site would be gaining some new young members....maybe that is because of reddit et al. Whaddaya all think?

Some would say that atheism needs rebranding. I recently read Varieties of Atheism in Science by Elaine Howard Ecklund and David R. Johnson and they discuss the high percentage of scientists who identify as atheists and how that influences young people entering STEM fields and the perception of scientists by religious people. They conducted surveys with 1,293 atheist scientists at universities in the U.S. and the U.K. and completed follow-up, in-depth interviews with 81 survey participants to understand the pathways to atheism among scientists, their views of religion, the value systems and morals they embrace, and whether they believe science explains everything — including nonmaterial aspects of life. Ecklund and Johnson believe the rhetoric of the New Atheists has created problems for the scientific community by weaponizing science against religion and that most scientists surveyed don't believe science and religion are incompatible.

Ecklund and Johnson believe different scientists have varying, nuanced attitudes towards religion and spirituality. Based on their research, they break down atheist scientists into three categories: modern atheists, who have no spirituality or engagement with religion, culturally religious atheists who affiliate themselves with a religious tradition, mainly driven by a desire for group connection and belonging, and spiritual atheists, those who identify as spiritual but do not believe in God or consider themselves religious. In addition, the authors found that most atheist scientists didn’t develop an indifference toward religious beliefs because of their exposure to science in school. Their science education may have affirmed their atheistic beliefs, but wasn’t the main reason they identified as atheists.

Ecklund and Johnson hope their research will encourage more fruitful conversations among leaders in science and religion about the connections between the two fields. Johnson says: “The takeaway I find most important is the idea that the scientific community should be concerned about its relationship with the religious community. Public trust in science is important and the relationship is consequential for diversity in science, given that women and non-whites are underrepresented in science and overrepresented within religion. The interests of science and our collective well-being may be best served if such discourse were carried out through productive dialogue with persons of faith, rather than through derision and hostility.”
Title: Re: Post Pandemic Anti-Religious Backlash?
Post by: Dark Lightning on November 19, 2021, 01:43:13 PM
"atheistic beliefs"?

I smelled BS in religious ed at the age of 11, when I started having to attend.
Title: Re: Post Pandemic Anti-Religious Backlash?
Post by: Cassia on November 19, 2021, 04:48:54 PM
Ecklund and Johnson hope their research will encourage more fruitful conversations among leaders in science and religion about the connections between the two fields. Johnson says: “The takeaway I find most important is the idea that the scientific community should be concerned about its relationship with the religious community. Public trust in science is important and the relationship is consequential for diversity in science, given that women and non-whites are underrepresented in science and overrepresented within religion. The interests of science and our collective well-being may be best served if such discourse were carried out through productive dialogue with persons of faith, rather than through derision and hostility.”
I never never really thought about it that way...hmmm the religious do seem to be more disconnected from science than ever; like they are doubling down against climate, pandemics, evolution and medical advances.
Title: Re: Post Pandemic Anti-Religious Backlash?
Post by: GSOgymrat on November 19, 2021, 05:06:41 PM
I never never really thought about it that way...hmmm the religious do seem to be more disconnected from science than ever; like they are doubling down against climate, pandemics, evolution and medical advances.

The attitudes of religious people can be especially important considering their influence on what research receives funding.
Title: Re: Post Pandemic Anti-Religious Backlash?
Post by: Hydra009 on November 19, 2021, 10:59:41 PM
Ecklund and Johnson believe the rhetoric of the New Atheists has created problems for the scientific community by weaponizing science against religion and that most scientists surveyed don't believe science and religion are incompatible.
Technically, it's true that science and religion are compatible.  And technically, astronomy and astrology are compatible.  Technically, science and ancestor worship are compatible.

All of that is technically true, but in reality, they tend to not go hand in hand for quite a few very compelling reasons.  For starters, mutually exclusive methodologies and mindsets.
Title: Re: Post Pandemic Anti-Religious Backlash?
Post by: SGOS on November 20, 2021, 04:18:22 AM
All of that is technically true, but in reality, they tend to not go hand in hand for quite a few very compelling reasons.  For starters, mutually exclusive methodologies and mindsets.
In order for science to be science, it needs to ignore Papal authority, hearsay, and unsupported conclusions, the cornerstones of religious authority.  Instead it relies on pragmatic investigation, and at least tries to avoid emotionally motivated conclusions.  As a result, it must proceed without religious claims and operate independently of religion.

Science asks little of religion, other than to just stay out of the way.  This creates incompatibility, because religion needs to control everything.  It attacks anything that disagrees with its dogma with venom that far outstrips disagreements between peers in the scientific community, where disagreements are much more orderly, but eventually settled as more evidence comes in.  These kinds of differences between science and religion, can take hundreds and thousands of years to settle, because religion does not understand what evidence is, while science cannot exist without it.

Compatibility can only occur by allowing independence in the face of petty disagreement.  Which half of this debate is the least likely to allow that?
Title: Re: Post Pandemic Anti-Religious Backlash?
Post by: Cassia on November 20, 2021, 08:04:37 AM
I admit I do not have much empathy for a religious conservative. Am I an example of an over-educated elitist atheist liberal that spurs such hate from these people? That causes them to support a Trump? I think I am, even if I am not really far to the left, IMHO.

Perhaps stuck-up assholes like me should try harder to relate. Is that even possible without me seeming condescending? Fuckin A; we have 5 college degrees between the two of us and have travelled the globe. How do I discuss politics and pandemic responsibility with a passionate emotional 'facebook expert; who is not a reader or traveler, doesn't know basic geography, science or history and loves jesus? They don't get my sarcastic wit and misinterpret much I say. Do I downshift into 1st gear? Maybe if liberals just stop with the over-the-top correctness, moralization of tiny issues and cancel culture?

I don't think the issue springs from raw IQ. It is life experience.
Title: Re: Post Pandemic Anti-Religious Backlash?
Post by: GSOgymrat on November 20, 2021, 08:21:56 AM
I admit I do not have much empathy for a religious conservative. Am I an example of an over-educated elitist atheist liberal that spurs such hate from these people? That causes them to support a Trump? I think I am, even if I am not really far to the left, IMHO.


Working with people who do not share your values need not come from a place of empathy. The question is: What approach is going to produce the desired result? How should arguments be framed to get people to approve funding or take a vaccine? For example, if pandemic restrictions and vaccinations had been framed more as a patriotic duty to defeat this virus from China more religious conservatives would have been onboard.
Title: Re: Post Pandemic Anti-Religious Backlash?
Post by: SGOS on November 20, 2021, 08:34:07 AM
I have two friends who are creationists.  I never thought such a friendship was possible.  I can't even say we respect each other's beliefs.  We just don't discuss evolution or religion.  Why do I bother?  Well, they have other redeeming qualities, and they actually act in a way that a real Jesus would preach.  They are not typical of most Christians at all.

And there is the problem. Too many Christians want to be in your face about their bullshit.  As some well known atheist pointed out (can't remember which one), "We did not start this war."  And when religionists start dictating how others should be, which includes things like minorities needing to know their place, well that calls for comment, and they hate those comments because they defy something they cherry picked from the Bible that suits their own "Christian" selfishness.
Title: Re: Post Pandemic Anti-Religious Backlash?
Post by: SGOS on November 20, 2021, 08:43:00 AM
For example, if pandemic restrictions and vaccinations had been framed more as a patriotic duty to defeat this virus from China more religious conservatives would have been onboard.
I don't think atheists, or politicians for that matter talked about patriotic duty, and Trump's response to mandates in my state, I remember clearly;  He ordered reporters to remove masks and other voters to "Free Viriginia!"

I also think many others feel as I do.  Doing what I can to avoid spreading the virus is part of my patriotic duty.  Those that do not just add to the chaos.
Title: Re: Post Pandemic Anti-Religious Backlash?
Post by: GSOgymrat on December 15, 2021, 07:39:49 AM
From the Wall Street Journal:

More Americans Left Religion During the Pandemic (https://www.wsj.com/articles/more-americans-left-religion-during-the-pandemic-11639494003?mod=flipboard)

The survey shows the percentage of Americans with no religious affiliation rose to 29% from 16% in 2007, while Christians declined to 63% from 65% in 2019 and 78% in 2007.
Title: Re: Post Pandemic Anti-Religious Backlash?
Post by: SGOS on December 15, 2021, 08:31:50 AM
I would have thought religious affiliation would have risen as people flocked to God for protection.  Having said that, my very good fundamentalist friends stopped going to their church because the minister encouraged the members to not wear masks while they were in church.  They are still religious of course, but stopped attending church.
Title: Re: Post Pandemic Anti-Religious Backlash?
Post by: Hydra009 on December 15, 2021, 11:49:11 PM
During the pandemic, church services were/are probably the biggest risk outside of frenching ICU patients.  Cheek by jowl with people most likely to engage in risky behaviors, least likely to protect themselves or anyone, and least likely to seek appropriate care when the predictable consequence occurs.  No thanks.

If anything, it shows that these people have a lesser sense of morality/responsibility than the average person, despite claiming the opposite.  The bedrock of society revealed to be its bedbugs.  I can see that leaving a bit of an impression.
Title: Re: Post Pandemic Anti-Religious Backlash?
Post by: SGOS on December 16, 2021, 05:50:42 AM
During the pandemic, church services were/are probably the biggest risk outside of frenching ICU patients. 
The risk is high indeed, at least in my area.  It always struck me as odd that people would demonstrate the depth of their faith to others by risking Covid.  It's like a less risky demonstration than snake handling, which is an equally stupid religious tradition.  Of course there are other explanations for this behavior too, but they are all irresponsible and stupid.