Just a few days ago the American government was telling it's people and everyone else they had within 90 days to flee the city before the Taliban arrived. I figured more accurately they had a week or two at best.
As of 3 hours ago, the Taliban have officially entered the Presidential Palace. As of an hour ago, there seem to be reports that the Taliban are beginning to lay siege to the airport, where thousands of people are fighting to board the limited number of planes. The embassy has issued a "shelter in place" to all Americans left in the city, because at this point it looks like there is no longer a way out. Absolutely no organization, just panicked Americans fleeing for their lives. If the Taliban can get heavy ordinance there... that is it.
Saad Mohseni on Twitter: "Another Saigon moment: chaotic scenes at Kabul International Airport. No security. None. https://t.co/6BuXqBTHWk" / Twitter (https://twitter.com/saadmohseni/status/1427000691407654914)
Anthea on Twitter: "Absolute madness as people try to flee to the remaining couple of aircraft leaving Kabul International Airport. https://t.co/BK76LUyMdo" / Twitter (https://twitter.com/Anthea06274890/status/1427007655550279684)
As for people who had actually bought airline tickets... they were kicked out by the American forces that did make it there and told to move way for our people trying to flee. Now they are on roads blockaded by the Taliban with nowhere to go.
Aisha Ahmad on Twitter: "I could hardly managed to get out of the airport now! Gunshots along the road! #KabulHasFallen #Kabulfall #Kabul #Afghanistan Lost my hope! Back to hell😢ðŸ˜ðŸ˜¥ https://t.co/W0b2IniR52" / Twitter (https://twitter.com/AishaTaIks/status/1427005466710847495)
Doge on Twitter: "Video of #Afghan's rushing to Hamid Karzai Int'l Airport in #Kabul in attempts to flee. Gunfire can be heard clearly in the background. https://t.co/g3CZ4P8TCb" / Twitter (https://twitter.com/IntelDoge/status/1426994085836083206)
Aisha Ahmad on Twitter: "Caught by a crossfire. #Kabul now #KabulHasFallen #Afghanistan Thanks for your help, cannot get help but now late! Buried my hope with this darkness.😢😥😠https://t.co/PZq4Ci6VUn" / Twitter (https://twitter.com/AishaTaIks/status/1427006712737898500)
This will go down not just as Biden's biggest failure but also one of the worst failures in American military history, rivaling the defeats in Vietnam and Korea.
And maybe I just don't know anything... but why the fuck were the military pulled out before the civilians? If anyone can explain how that is remotely a logical choice, for the love of god explain it to me like I'm an idiot.
To give Biden some credit, Trump had pulled out most of the troops and at the same time had released 5,000 Taliban prisoners back into Afghanistan. If I believed Trump had the brains for it, I would almost wager he set this entire thing up to fail on Biden's watch.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-51689443
QuoteThe deal also provides for a prisoner swap. Some 5,000 Taliban prisoners and 1,000 Afghan security force prisoners would be exchanged by 10 March, when talks between the Taliban and the Afghan government are due to start.
Quote from: Shiranu on August 15, 2021, 04:55:26 PMThis will go down not just as Biden's biggest failure but also one of the worst failures in American military history, rivaling the defeats in Vietnam and Korea.
Yes, but there was never any outcome on the table but failure. Afghanistan started with a Taliban regime and the US did not change the fundamental(ist) character of the country, so of course, the instant the US pulls out is the instant the Taliban is back in charge.
(https://i.redd.it/sj22k0nvthh71.jpg)
Not a good look for Biden or the US.
Bush/Cheney got us into the Afgan war. I cheered at first--Bush showed some backbone and went after Ben Laden. And they had him cornered and could have killed him (according to a couple of accounts I'd read). He got away into Pakistan and our govt let him go. At the time, the world would have cheered if we had chased him into Pakistan and killed him there. But then, those two war criminals were not really interested in catching the guy. They were more interested in oil and taking it from Iraq. How would we have known if we had 'won' in the Afgan war?? There was no objective--well, except for the actual one--fill the corporation coffers.
I hope the whole infinity war in the Middle East gets over with but it's not likely. The whole mess was a massive shit storm coming before Biden ever took office.
Quote from: Draconic Aiur on August 15, 2021, 09:53:50 PM
I hope the whole infinity war in the Middle East gets over with but it's not likely. The whole mess was a massive shit storm coming before Biden ever took office.
https://youtu.be/rwvoHP7bUAw
This will probably, in history, mark the end of Biden's presidential honeymoon.
Also, I agree this is, to say the least, not handled well. But I do feel that every president since Bush has been passing the buck on this problem.
No president wants to be the one to pull out of a war, because this always happens and he gets the blame, but this pull out has the added dimension of being poorly planned to the point where it even seems there never was a plan. We would expect some casualties at the end, but this one is a cluster fuck. I was waiting for reports of the Taliban capturing the air base, and I heard reports of diplomats trying to negotiate the safety of the remaining evacuees. That was a grim moment for me because it was a last minute hopeless plea to an enemy we had been killing for the last 20 years. There are going to be a lot of Americans killed now, not to mention a lot of helpless Afghans.
Perhaps the supposedly "Anti-Taliban" forces made a deal with the Taliban in advance.
Quote from: Cassia on August 16, 2021, 10:14:48 AM
Perhaps the supposedly "Anti-Taliban" forces made a deal with the Taliban in advance.
US forces have been doing that for years. They tried this time (https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/u-s-envoy-touted-peace-afghanistan-18-months-later-peace-n1276811), but talks failed because the Taliban sensed the potential for a military victory. They sensed right. Now it's a fait accompli.
Speak of the devil: https://theweek.com/afghanistan-war/1003748/gop-takes-down-2020-page-touting-trumps-historic-peace-agreement-with-the
Quote from: Hydra009 on August 16, 2021, 11:20:23 AM
Speak of the devil: https://theweek.com/afghanistan-war/1003748/gop-takes-down-2020-page-touting-trumps-historic-peace-agreement-with-the
I saw a post earlier talking about this, and to just wait... in 2024, when this has all blown over, the GOP will be back to proclaiming it was them who got us out of Afghanistan under Trump's admin and Biden just took all the credit for it.
Biden is talking. I was hoping to be reassured that our people are safe. I agree we need to be out, and should have been 10 years ago, but he sounds like thousands of people are going to be evacuated in the next few weeks. I would like to think this is true, but I think that scenario may no longer be an option.
My brother-in-law thinks there will be very orderly withdrawal and the Taliban will let Americans peacefully go.
Quote from: SGOS on August 16, 2021, 04:47:32 PM
My brother-in-law thinks there will be very orderly withdrawal and the Taliban will let Americans peacefully go.
I'm starting to lean towards that opinion; they have had plenty of time to attack the airport (and I assume they have heavier ordinance to do significant damage if they wanted to) but seem to be holding off; they also seized most of the cities in the country relatively peacefully.
I think they are looking to be the new legitimate government rather than the new occupying force, and pissing off the global community by mass slaughter of our people and our allies would not be a smart move on their part. After 20 years of war... maybe all the really want is just their own place to enforce their bigotry on their own people and generally be left alone. Obviously that is less than ideal (to put mildly) of situation for the people of Afghanistan... but it might honestly be the best outcome we could hope for at this point.
If there was strategic advantage to slaughter I don't doubt for a second they would choose that option... I just don't see one, and it doesn't seem like they do either.
Quote from: Shiranu on August 16, 2021, 05:47:06 PMI think they are looking to be the new legitimate government rather than the new occupying force, and pissing off the global community by mass slaughter of our people and our allies would not be a smart move on their part.
Devil's advocate: I don't think they're much scared of our wrath, they've felt it for nearly two decades now and they seem to be holding in there just fine. Likely another reason.
Quote from: Hydra009 on August 16, 2021, 06:25:41 PM
Devil's advocate: I don't think they're much scared of our wrath, they've felt it for nearly two decades now and they seem to be holding in there just fine. Likely another reason.
Yeah, but they have the entire country... why risk that?
They could likely fight us for a 100 years more, but why do that when they can be more like an Iran; our enemy, but not enough to warrant military engagement. Let the people suffer any sanctions we put on the country while they prosper.
I feel so sorry for those that have already been marked for death after the takeover. 20 years of American support. There is never a good way to leave a country knowing it will fall. The Afghan population will suffer . I am so happy to be here in the USA .
The groups who are the saddest about our Afgan pullout are the corporations in this country.
But then, they don't really have much to worry about. The US is always fucking fighting in other countries just to keep our wonderful corporations nice and fat with our riches.
Quote from: Mike Cl on August 16, 2021, 07:21:45 PM
The groups who are the saddest about our Afgan pullout are the corporations in this country.
But then, they don't really have much to worry about. The US is always fucking fighting in other countries just to keep our wonderful corporations nice and fat with our riches.
From an ethical standpoint vs greed one, I'll throw an honorable mention to our troops, with the general consensus being, "Why the fuck did I go over there to be permanently mutilated and watch my friends die?".
I've noticed the majority of coverage I've seen has emphasized how many billions of dollars we wasted, and yes that is important, but if anything we should be thinking about the tens of thousands of soldiers who were scarred, mutilated and mentally broken from their experiences... and that to this day we don't give them even remotely close to the help they deserve.
(I realise that is nothing even remotely new, but maybe if it's said for the 100,000,000th time it will finally click in some politician's head. Doubtful, but...)
Quote from: cnm411 on August 16, 2021, 07:09:36 PM
I feel so sorry for those that have already been marked for death after the takeover. 20 years of American support. There is never a good way to leave a country knowing it will fall. The Afghan population will suffer . I am so happy to be here in the USA .
Yeah, imagine living in an area where basic western norms like voting and women's rights and other hallmarks of modernity were practiced but always there was this looming threat against them from fanatical religious crazies armed to the teeth, advocatingly an almost comically regressive political agenda. There have been clashes with them for years and years, mostly inconclusive. Yet inch, by inch, your country gets taken over and transformed into some ridiculous religious backwater. That must be really tough to go through.
Quote from: Shiranu on August 16, 2021, 08:03:53 PM
From an ethical standpoint vs greed one, I'll throw an honorable mention to our troops, with the general consensus being, "Why the fuck did I go over there to be permanently mutilated and watch my friends die?".
I've noticed the majority of coverage I've seen has emphasized how many billions of dollars we wasted, and yes that is important, but if anything we should be thinking about the tens of thousands of soldiers who were scarred, mutilated and mentally broken from their experiences... and that to this day we don't give them even remotely close to the help they deserve.
(I realise that is nothing even remotely new, but maybe if it's said for the 100,000,000th time it will finally click in some politician's head. Doubtful, but...)
Shiranu, you are 100% correct. The group that directly took it in the shorts were the troops. I applaud each and every one. Our vets get fucked up (physically and mentally and emotionally) on the battlefields and when they get home. Our govt. simply does not support them.
I almost hate to bring this up, but I am soooooooo tired of hearing that those troops were defending my freedoms. No, they were about corporate work, not doing a single thing for my freedom. And the number of mercenaries our govt has allowed over the last 50 years is very alarming. As Ike suggested, the govt/industrial/military movement is to be feared.
Quote from: Shiranu on August 16, 2021, 08:03:53 PMFrom an ethical standpoint vs greed one, I'll throw an honorable mention to our troops, with the general consensus being, "Why the fuck did I go over there to be permanently mutilated and watch my friends die?".
The unfortunate truth: Because that's what you signed up for. Because politicians and arms manufacturers and the general public love military adventurism, albeit for different reasons. You're not saving the world from tyranny or protecting democracy or any other such nonsense. You're a pawn on a board, and pawns get sacrificed all the time and very few people give it a second thought.
Quote from: Hydra009 on August 16, 2021, 11:20:54 PM
...The general public love military adventurism...
They do; They really do. But then the fun wears off and the dim awareness of futility and expense ($ and lives) starts to dawn in the public awareness, and people start to ask, "What was the reason we got into this? Weren't we supposed to kick ass and be done with it?" We treat war like a Monopoly Game. We don't ever finish the game. We just keep playing until we get bored, and then we turn our attention to something else, often another war. You know a different one that we can justify with a new variation of the same logical fallacy.
But you can't just fold up the game board and turn on the TV. We first have to find out how to exit and save face. That is the responsibility the current president, whose only real function in the chaos is to save face (and his own ass). That Vietnam debacle from years ago, just wouldn't end, because every president had to save face. If you are old enough, you may remember President Nixon's often used mantra, "We will have peace with dignity," which loosely translates into "We want to give up without admitting we lost." And like the loss this time, people were dropping off the wings and landing gear of evacuation aircraft as we left the losers to await their execution by the Khmer Rouge.
Then there are all those movies that show that we really did win after all. Chuck Norris heads on back and personally vaporizes all those Vietnamese regulars running a POW camp in the middle of a jungle. And Colonel Kurtz is such a bad ass, terrorizing those commies so bad that our own government has to go in and kill him. What a fucking joke.
Listening to NPR today, those interviewed (not government officials) are not as optimistic of a bloodless evacuation as President Biden. They are not predicting a blood bath, but are VERY worried. There are 100,000 Afghans that qualify as "in danger" to be evacuated, and many of those cannot be found or have already been "disappeared" during the night. There is strong hope that a large US military contingent can stave off the Taliban until we get ourselves out. The main fear is that the Taliban seldom follows up on it's "promises", and amnesty for those that helped the US will be history, once we are gone. A kinder gentler Taliban? Do they have that ability? If the general Afghan population is knowledgeable about this, they don't appear to have any faith in the Taliban promises. A Taliban spokesman may have promised amnesty, but the Taliban factions are not under a single leadership, and groups follow their own procedures.
At full speed, NPR "experts" predict that we can evacuate 5000 people per day, but we are not there yet. I have not heard much consensus between administration officials, and on the ground participants in the withdrawal. And I will continue to worry until there is more agreed on confirmation.
Having said that, I agree with Biden that it is way past the time we should have left Afghanistan, and I hate to see the media now asking, "Should we have left?" Because I think Biden is right about the move, but just botched the execution badly. I guess he's at 50% on the issue by my calculations.
Quote from: Hydra009 on August 16, 2021, 11:20:54 PM
The unfortunate truth: Because that's what you signed up for. Because politicians and arms manufacturers and the general public love military adventurism, albeit for different reasons. You're not saving the world from tyranny or protecting democracy or any other such nonsense. You're a pawn on a board, and pawns get sacrificed all the time and very few people give it a second thought.
This is why I ended up in Iraq. I was very opposed to the invasion of Kuwait but I took an oath when I joined the Army. And they paid my student loan.
But when I was in Desert Storm. I worked in Civil Affairs. When the decision was made to withdraw from Iraq we began evacuating and relocating the refugees and those who assisted us weeks in advance. Also the move was gradual. A few battalions at a time not all at once. I realize the conditions we left under were different than now. If the Taliban had noticed exit actions they surely would have just began preparing to invade. There is no good way to leave an area where they do not have the spirit of nationalism to fight for themselves.
The 13th century BC Egypt or the 21st century USA. "The authority of a state over its people resides in its war powers."
It's ironic that the relation between war and modern Western society is like the relation between the pandemic and the people who don't believe in it, in a reversed, disturbing way.
You know, most people always complain that the modern medicine can't do this, can't do do that because 'they wouldn't' just for money for this and...insert some conspiracy theory here. But in fact, the main reason what makes a pandemic so unbelievable, and the conspiracy theories so believable is the fact that modern medicine has actually worked so good in the last 100 years. The idiot who would die of diabetes if born a hundred years ago wastes hours online to comment on how dangerous are the emergency vaccines produced in a pandemic.
Exactly like the most people in the Western societies who believe their culture; their way of living -religion...etc- is the answer for a proper, stable, progressive civilisation, while they live under those conditions because of the wars started-pursued and the general war powers of their countries, and it has been successful in the last 70 years.
Tens of thousands of Afghani men on foot, women and children by passports thousands a day fleeing from Taliban are marching to the last stop. Where is the last stop? Anywhere Europe starts. Anywhere civilisation begins. And Europe thinks these people will stop at this last stop, if they pay money to some slave merchants.
What has started as a climate crisis -when we had no idea what was a climate crisis- decades ago has turned into series of civil wars, wars between terrorist groups popping here and there spread to the the ME and the rest of the world. Because all we have been fed was that 'evil religious nutjobs' were fighting among each other for power. Without the climate crisis can Taliban or any other group could gain power like this, in the last few decades? I don't think Taliban caused more people to escape from their homes than water shortage. 'Shortage' lol. I mean, almost complete absence of clean water.
The last stop is the country where I live, the overwhelming majority of the people here think that they should have died in their country and should be dumped on sight anywhere possible as soon as they arrive. But the worst part is, there is a horrible political party in power to make the best of those masses for themselves. Those people are running away to reach some place where people in power will make voters and an unofficial sharia armies from them to create chaos to stay in power. The power they were about to lose.
I have never been this disgusted by human culture before in my entire life. I mean what does it matter what I feel...but yea I'm going through something serious and while I'm not in some denial stage, I'm trying to pretend as if things are normal, and I keep telling myself 'What was gonna happen', you know? Because it's been like watching a train wreck. If I could go insane, the problem would be solved. Because you are insane, you don't care.
So... this is a thing...
The planes flying out of Kabul were actually inflatable decoys, apparently.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E9MZdKGXMAcmPZ0?format=png&name=small)
Even though in the video you can literally see those parts, all someone did was blur them out (kinda obviously in places too)... but facts, lol amirite?
Inflatables are big improvement over cardboard cutouts. If they used cardboard cutouts, there would be even fewer believers.
The NYT describes an Administration/Pentagon strategy planning for withdrawal starting back in May. I think "strategy planning" would be a good description, but it was also similar to a debate with both sides disagreeing with each other. As Commander and Chief, Biden had the last say of course, and he and his staff "agreed" with each other that a safe orderly withdrawal would be the outcome. Pentagon generals did not say, "No, you are wrong," at least from the way I read it. It sounded they were just offering the most prudent strategy for withdrawal, including more time, and obviously included more details about particulars than were available to reporters.
The outcome being that the Generals were ignored. Biden and his staff were confident, in spite of the warnings. In addition, the President of Afghanistan did not want a situation that might cause panic in the country, the result being that information was not presented to the public that would tell them how urgent it was to prepare. This left a lot of Afghans and Americans outside the circle of safety and outside the Taliban checkpoints not allowing them passage to the safety of the airport.
Maybe this is the way final withdrawals have to be, as it was in Vietnam, planning followed by final chaos, no matter what the strategy involved. Although the NYT did not present the planning that way. While the Pentagon strongly warned about the president's exit strategy, we don't know if the Pentagon plan would have been less chaotic. Also, the Pentagon did not recommend staying in Afghanistan. They just disagreed with the president's exit strategy.
In any long drawn out war that serves no purpose or advantage to the US, an exit is always necessary. Americans in general tend to be enthusiastic about invading, but soon begin to lose interest when the actual costs of war become apparent. Eventually, some president will have to end the war. Trump could have done it without losing support of his base. He would have just pulled out and disregarded the humanitarian pain. His supporters would have rallied around that. Biden lacks the pathological disinterest in humanity to do what Trump could have done. Could he have done it better? I don't know.
Will this affect the 2022 mid term elections? Probably to some extent, but there may be other factors that will carry much more influence. Who knows?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dykZyuWci3g
Holy fuck. I knew this was a mess, but it just gets worse the more angles you look at it from. Not only did we waste hundreds of billions of dollars on military equipment we never used, but when we hastily evacuated, guess what was left behind. Weapons, helicopters, all that stuff American tax dollars went to buy, all now belong to the Taliban.
Fuck Joe Biden. When asked about the people we have an obligation to protect, he said, "Fuck that. We don't have to worry about that. We did it in Vietnam, Nixon and Kissinger got away with it." Wow.
QuoteFuck Joe Biden. When asked about the people we have an obligation to protect, he said, "Fuck that. We don't have to worry about that. We did it in Vietnam, Nixon and Kissinger got away with it." Wow.
Honestly, the biggest gear that has been grinding for me is every time I've seen him address the nation he keeps repeating, "Look, leaving Afghanistan was the right choice. I don't regret that we left, it was the right choice."
...literally no one is complaining about us leaving, it's how it was handled that people are upset about. I've yet to hear him actually address that, and it's just not a good look to keep on telling people to stop being so annoyed at him because leaving was the right choice and ignoring the actual issue people have with it.
Edit: Holy fuck, I just got to that part and the interview in February. Biden can actually go fuck himself with a rusty axe.
Speak of the devil.
Two things;
1. Americans aren't stranded in Afghanistan, and it's irresponsible and rage inducing to suggest they are?
2. That still doesn't answer the questions I have now heard reporters ask Biden and her at least 10 times; why do you keep repeating that withdrawing was the right thing to do when all we are asking is if it could have been handled better?
Biden has been around making gaffs for decades. That's probably the source of his name recognition. That was probably the worst so far, but I'm convinced he hasn't reached the bottom yet. Trump was a dufus and generated the biggest liberal turnout ever. Biden may have the same effect on Republicans.
Quote from: Shiranu on August 23, 2021, 06:57:06 PM
Speak of the devil.
Two things;
1. Americans aren't stranded in Afghanistan, and it's irresponsible and rage inducing to suggest they are?
2. That still doesn't answer the questions I have now heard reporters ask Biden and her at least 10 times; why do you keep repeating that withdrawing was the right thing to do when all we are asking is if it could have been handled better?
She has gone to extremes to create straw men out of that reporter's comment. A good politician needs to be able to dance and weave to avoid answering questions, but they are supposed to do it so that no one notices. Now I agree that she needs to prioritize issues with getting out of Afghanistan at the top. I think a better approach would be to make that clear, and then address the other questions. It might even be better to admit that withdrawal from pointless wars always presents death, suffering, and loss among civilian populations, including Americans who were taking unnecessary risks.
"We are going to get them all out!" This is a great objective, but a purely unsubstantiated claim, and sadly does not address the plight of our Afghan friends. What she is leaving out seems to be a toned down version of Biden's gaff about "zero responsibility for Afghans." I doubt that Biden actually meant what he said, which is why they call statements like that gaffs. And this is one of Biden's character traits. Usually, they are tiny in comparison, and they are lovingly laughed off by Democrats, but this time, they are burying themselves, and this woman seems to be making a mess out of the mess.
Quote from: SGOS on August 24, 2021, 07:06:37 AMA good politician needs to be able to dance and weave to avoid answering questions, but they are supposed to do it so that no one notices.
Sorry to sidetrack the thread, but is that true? Good politicians shouldn't be candid? Good politicians shouldn't answer uncomfortable/nonplusgood questions at all?
I can't remember the President, but one President suggested that Americans dial back their consumption to help ease some sort of problem (energy crisis, maybe?) and he wasn't particularly well-liked, so maybe there's some truth to the above quote.
Quote from: Hydra009 on August 24, 2021, 10:34:47 PM
Sorry to sidetrack the thread, but is that true? Good politicians shouldn't be candid? Good politicians shouldn't answer uncomfortable/nonplusgood questions at all?
I can't remember the President, but one President suggested that Americans dial back their consumption to help ease some sort of problem (energy crisis, maybe?) and he wasn't particularly well-liked, so maybe there's some truth to the above quote.
There was some sarcasm in that. You can substitute "re electable" for "good." Voters as a group don't want the truth. And I think you are talking about Jimmy Carter and runaway inflation. He stopped printing money and raised interest rates sky high. Actually, his appointee Paul Volker at the Fed did that. The stock market languished for years. And people stopped building lake homes, until inflation came under control.
At least 3 bombings have happened in the last 5-6 hours, killing at least 10 U.S. soldiers. ISIS has apparently arrived.
Quote from: Shiranu on August 26, 2021, 02:21:12 PM
At least 3 bombings have happened in the last 5-6 hours, killing at least 10 U.S. soldiers. ISIS has apparently arrived.
I just saw a video from CNBC about a suicide bomber outside the airport where everyone's waiting to GTFO of the country. But don't worry. Biden's team hears you. He's doing everything he can by...sending out suggestions on WhatsApp. This is totally under control.
Quote from: Blackleaf on August 26, 2021, 02:26:36 PM
I just saw a video from CNBC about a suicide bomber outside the airport where everyone's waiting to GTFO of the country. But don't worry. Biden's team hears you. He's doing everything he can by...sending out suggestions on WhatsApp. This is totally under control.
I am still seeing a massive circling of the wagons by Democrats who insist he is doing everything right, and that all the criticism of him is just undercover Republicans who belong in prison trying to destroy his reputation.
I just don't get how the right-wing Dems and the far-right Republicans can be so fucking partisan towards one another when they really aren't all that different other than a few social policies.
Here's to hoping this isn't used as an excuse to go back in...
Quote from: Shiranu on August 26, 2021, 02:35:21 PMI am still seeing a massive circling of the wagons by Democrats who insist he is doing everything right, and that all the criticism of him is just undercover Republicans who belong in prison trying to destroy his reputation.
I hear ya. A few days ago, I saw one that insinuated that Biden is getting so much flak
because he's doing the right thing. Dafuq.
No. He's getting flak because he's doing the right thing in an obviously flawed and disorganized way. I mean, how the fuck do these people think jihadis opening up US weapons crates and driving around in US military vehicles is a good thing?! It's almost as brain-dead and irritating as right-wing propaganda.
They do correctly blame Trump for being a part of this mess but I've got news for you guys - a LOT of people have their fingerprints on this mess, not just Republicans. The "blame the Republicans" thing is not the full story by a long shot.
Look, I'm not an expert on this kind of matter. I won't pretend to be.
Nor have I extensively looked into it.
I just want to say, I'm not sure another administration, given the hand they were already dealt, would've handled the withdraw better.
That being said; it was still a collossal fuck-up from begin to end, with the fault on all those in charge over the past two decades. Including Biden. Including Obama. Including Trump. Including Bush. And all their lackees and all their representatives.
And even if Biden were to truly think he and his people did everything right that they had control over, which I doubt that he truly does, I think he is still in a position in which he should express more that this could and should have been handled better; including by him.
It is the absolute bare minimum of what is needed of him. For America. For Afghanistan. For the rest of the world. Because for all his talk of decency, it would be the decent thing to do. It's hard to hone up to a bad look, even if you truly think most of the blame isn't on you. But that was what the former guy did. He never took responsibility for jack-shit if he thought it made him look bad. It shouldn't be another four years of that. Sometimes, even if you truly don't think it is fair, you need to bite the bullet and take one for the team. He holds a powerfull office, it comes with responsibilities that should surpass his ego.
I still think Biden has the potential in him to do great things in office yet. And up until this, I had little qualm over his performance so far. His presidency doesn't even have to be defined by these past few weeks. But only if he both hones up to them as well as turn to the future and truly work for a better world.
And if he's worried about admitting fault hurting his chances of reëlection, I don't think anyone, even as they voted for him, was hoping for a second Biden term. He's just too damn old for that, even if he were to be one of the greatest presidents in the world. Which actually puts him in an almost unique situation to do great things without needing to fear the reprecussions on his future political carreer. He could be the one to show us that it takes strength to take responsibility for a fuck-up. Which makes it all the more painful that he isn't.
Lawrence O'Donnell has a take on the Afgan withdrawal that I had not thought about. He suggests that we are a country leaving a theater of war in defeat. Those never go well. We did it in Vietnam and did not save a single person. This time is going much better (not good, but better). He states it better than I can:
https://www.msnbc.com/transcripts/transcript-last-word-lawrence-o-donnell-8-17-21-n1277051
I think he has a point. We lost and are leaving. Never a fun nor good thing to go through. I have hated the Afgan war almost from the start and have viewed it as a total waste of people and money. Finally we are leaving.
I knew we would not be in Afghanistan forever, and expected it would be a mess when we left, so I'm not surprised that things are going as they have. I believe the evacuation could have been done better, but could have also been worse. Troops evacuating while the enemy is advancing is always a game of musical chairs. The last man to be evacuated, or the last squad is in grave danger of being overpowered by a factor of 1000 to 1.
This is why no president wants to be the one to bite the bullet and withdraw. He takes the blame for the death and destruction and humanitarian slaughter that follows. It is a no win proposition. Unless you actually win the war, but we haven't done that since WWII. We just lost another war. We just don't admit it.
Quote from: SGOS on August 26, 2021, 05:58:24 PMI knew we would not be in Afghanistan forever, and expected it would be a mess when we left, so I'm not surprised that things are going as they have. I believe the evacuation could have been done better, but could have also been worse. Troops evacuating while the enemy is advancing is always a game of musical chairs.
*raises hand high and waits for the teacher to call on him*
Umm...why was there 1) an enemy 2) in a position to exploit the withdraw and overrun any resistance?
Cause that looks a lot less like withdrawing and more like a crushing military defeat.
Why was there an enemy? Because Bush/Cheney wanted it that way--used Afg. to go into Iraq. So, not any 'actual' enemy, just a made up one. And our withdrawal was doomed from almost the start--Bush could have withdrawn prior to his leaving office, but that did not happen. Biden really could not get out easily. At least he did get out.
Quote from: Mike Cl on August 26, 2021, 08:01:50 PM
Why was there an enemy? Because Bush/Cheney wanted it that way--used Afg. to go into Iraq. So, not any 'actual' enemy, just a made up one. And our withdrawal was doomed from almost the start--Bush could have withdrawn prior to his leaving office, but that did not happen. Biden really could not get out easily. At least he did get out.
Al Qaeda was based in Afghanistan.
Quote from: Shiranu on August 26, 2021, 09:48:33 PM
Al Qaeda was based in Afghanistan.
Until they slipped away--or, actually, Bush/Cheney let them go. Al Qaeda did not have any oil.
Another thing that bothers me, I kept seeing articles where some defiant woman activist vows to stay in Afghanistan, likely to be killed. And some people paint this as a courageous, virtuous thing. No, it's extremely wasteful and counterproductive.
For starters, the Taliban has zero qualms about killing anyone they don't like, so you can't Patrick Henry them cause they'll choose death every time. And when you're dead, you can't help anyone. So either get the hell out or keep your head down (and intact). DO NOT become a martyr. Because I guarantee you, dying will have pretty much zero impact on Afghan society. If anything, it'll be poorer for it.
Quote from: Mike Cl on August 26, 2021, 10:05:03 PM
Until they slipped away--or, actually, Bush/Cheney let them go. Al Qaeda did not have any oil.
bin Laden masterminds 9-11 from some place in Afghanistan.
US invades Afghanistan to kill him.
Makes sense so far, but then...
Saddam Hussein sits in Iraq watching it on the TV.
Bush decides Saddam is responsible.
America believes him during the 9-11 hysteria.
We shift our attention away from bin Laden and invade Iraq.
This was the most perplexing line of reasoning from high places I have ever seen. My brain still swirls. To get America on his side, Bush invented all kinds of secondary reasons why Saddam must be taken out. All of them unsupported by actual evidence, based mostly on Bush's imagination and some hearsay from a former Iraqi taxicab driver. The purpose for invading Afghanistan faded into the background, and 67% of the American population was happily sucked into one of the most costly political scams ever invented by a White House. It almost makes me think there were other actual unspoken reasons we invaded Iraq. Ya think? Duh?!
If you guys ever need a laugh, check out this editorial (https://www.nytimes.com/2001/11/02/opinion/foreign-affairs-one-war-two-fronts.html) from 2001.
QuoteA month into the war in Afghanistan, the hand-wringing has already begun over how long this might last. Let's all take a deep breath and repeat after me: Give war a chance. This is Afghanistan we're talking about. Check the map. It's far away.
I have no doubt, for now, that the Bush team has a military strategy for winning a long war.
Three time Pulitzer winner (yes, really) and galaxy brain over here
So when can we start the hand-wringing? Are we there yet?
(https://scontent.fhou1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/240745375_10225631509125546_9196394901196570225_n.jpg?_nc_cat=111&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=XKNxl6_tiOsAX9O32-8&tn=tzrMqhWS0GI6wHo7&_nc_ht=scontent.fhou1-1.fna&oh=34d61998db7d2aef05404456f30591b4&oe=614F9B8A)
(https://s3.memeshappen.com/memes/dear-lord-the-stupidity-levels-are-off-the-charts.jpg)
^ # of people employed to deliver mail VS number of people sent to destroy the One Ring and save Middle Earth. Really makes you think, doesn't it?
My uncle is livid. He served multiple tours in Afghanistan over the last fifteen years. He knew these people. And now they're suffering because, as he sees it, Biden swung the gate open for the Taliban shouting, "Come on in, boys!"
I think it's a safe assumption that Biden never intended to get all Americans out, and that many Afghan allies would be left to the Taliban. In any withdrawal, it's unavoidable that some would be left behind. When it's all over he will say, "We tried," but Administration promises will not have been kept. We knew this before the promises were made. I was actually embarrassed watching the Administration making that claim.
I think after 20 years of raising and protecting your child, you would have some confidence that they would go out into the world and put up a fight….not just fall down on the ground and let people walk on you. Did anyone really expect the Afghans for all the braggadocio they have about never being conquered, would just run at the first sign of a Toyota pickup with two guys carrying a rifle?
Hey Taliban. Power is out again and didn't you know garbage pickup is on Tuesday. The shelves are empty, there is no bread or water. Good luck Fuckers. Maybe they will be more effective than our fake democracy. They will leverage their so-called ISIS-special-K for more US $. Excellent plan.
I remember dickhead Cheney say this not "nation building" like in Viet Nam. Right. As fucked as the "getting out" is, at least they free to run their asshole theocracy now.
Leaving Afghanistan was fucked up. Staying for longer is FUCKED up. No matter what Biden did would be some degree of fucked up. That Bush put us there is the highest degree of fucked up. He put us there with no national goal--no way to win. I guess we still have not learned that one cannot 'build' a govt in a foreign land. We have a hard enough time as a nation to build ourselves, much less any other country. So all those brave souls who served in the Afghan theater was there not saving any of my rights, not defending me from any kind of attack, but at the behest of our govt. which had no plans, other than to serve the corporations that made money on suppling the war.
And the getting out process was not as much a cluster fuck as it appears. At least that is the impression I end up with after reading several articles talking about Americans in that area and why they were still there. Some, (more than I thought possible) actually support the Taliban or have family roots in that area. They will not leave. And I guess some are in business in some manner and so will not leave. They had an opportunity to leave but did not take it--for whatever reason. And it is interesting that the Taliban did not hinder our operations at the airport, but supported it--quite a bit different than Vietnam, where the North Vietnamese we killing us and all of our allies.
It is fucked we left Afghanistan. It would have been FUCKED to have stayed. No matter what we were fucked--self induced. Lately it seems all we do as a nation is to fuck ourselves. Yes, this country is fucked and I am saddened to have realized that--to be witnessing that.
The fact is that the US is really a theocracy as well. Essentially every leader that says "god bless America" or invokes the lord during each and every tragedy just reinforces that fact. They govern based on some shit-brain idea of god's will and then seek solace in the great scam. Our thoughts and prayers go out to the 100s of 1000s of Americans who drowned to death in their COVID juices even though they were "washed" in the blood of jeeeesuuuusah. So their world-view is ideological, history is distorted, science is flawed and human sacrifice is required and expected as the endless loop goes on and on.
Quote from: Cassia on August 31, 2021, 08:39:57 AM
Hey Taliban. Power is out again and didn't you know garbage pickup is on Tuesday. The shelves are empty, there is no bread or water. Good luck Fuckers.
They've been in power before. They ran the country into the ground, but apparently an impoverished and poorly educated populace is exactly what they need to grow their numbers (they love the poorly educated and vice versa), so incompetence is rewarded, not punished. Wish I could say that Afghanistan is the only country like that.
Quote from: Mike Cl on August 31, 2021, 09:14:09 AM
Leaving Afghanistan was fucked up. Staying for longer is FUCKED up. No matter what Biden did would be some degree of fucked up. That Bush put us there is the highest degree of fucked up. He put us there with no national goal--no way to win.
Bush was re-elected. Biden may not be. There is no political upside in defeat or retreat, even if starting the thing was the bigger mistake. In a game of Old Maid, someone always gets stuck with the old maid. No one wins at Old Maid, the game ends when someone loses.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/joe-biden-holds-grudges-and-will-punish-britain-for-afghanistan-criticism-allies-say/ar-AANReF2?ocid=uxbndlbing
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E-O_8IGXIAIWXFT?format=jpg&name=medium)
QuoteIt came after Cabinet insiders were quoted as suggesting the US president "looked gaga" and described him as “doolally†in the wake of the fall of Kabul.
"The Brits have their view. But they should be careful. What's been said is offensive and he will remember it. He actually has a long memory," a US source told the Telegraph.
"It's always been his way that if somebody says something really bad to him, or about him, he doesn't speak to them again. He does bear grudges. Boris Johnson should know that."
We literally just elected a senile Trump at this point. Is this preschool?
All that does is lower my level of surprise about Biden, since this is the kind of thing I expected before he was elected.
I wouldn't take the telegraph on face value though.
These are the people who denied food shortages in britain for as long as they could and blamed any and all border problems on the eu being difficult, post brexit.
They are not quite as rightwing as fox, but they do tend to pass the blame and play that old shifting game.
I can imagine them holding a grudge ever since biden started being more realistic regarding future trade deals with the uk than number 45.
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on September 02, 2021, 01:04:13 AM
I wouldn't take the telegraph on face value though.
These are the people who denied food shortages in britain for as long as they could and blamed any and all border problems on the eu being difficult, post brexit.
They are not quite as rightwing as fox, but they do tend to pass the blame and play that old shifting game.
I can imagine them holding a grudge ever since biden started being more realistic regarding future trade deals with the uk than number 45.
The tracker I checked described the Telegraph as right, but mostly factual. But describing Biden as doo-lally is clearly right wing. The article smacked of right wing hatred, rather than balanced liberal disapproval. I wouldn't go out of my way to read it if that was typical of their coverage.
Quote from: SGOS on September 02, 2021, 08:10:33 AM
The tracker I checked described the Telegraph as right, but mostly factual. But describing Biden as doo-lally is clearly right wing. The article smacked of right wing hatred, rather than balanced liberal disapproval. I wouldn't go out of my way to read it if that was typical of their coverage.
I know them mostly nowadays for first denying weeks and months on end that there were foodshortages and lorrydriver shortages and production labour shortages, in brittain. Only to now admit them but blaming them on the 'pingdemic', as they coin it, and refusing to even acknowledge that brexit has a part in it.
Also them taking the uk governments side quite hard in the idea that the northern ireland protocol is an inflexible mess that is hurting the island of ireland and is a travesty, whilst not adressing that the protocol is actually the proposed and by them accepted solution to the real problem, being checks.
They've also been drumming on about us being assholes who pick on them for having the balls to leave the union, saying that we rigurously apply 'new rules' that apply just to them and make life harder. Which is not true. The rules have existed prior, hell they've helped make most of the rules in the years prior their state as a third country is what is new.
I don' think they usually go as far as to lie about stuff. They just portray it in a very dishonest way, drenched in opinion.
In any case, this article, which alrezdy kind of reads like an opinion piece more than 'world news' is something i'd personally be weary about, because of that.
I also didn't find any other newspaper reading similar headlines, though i could be missing them.
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on September 02, 2021, 08:37:10 AM
I also didn't find any other newspaper reading similar headlines, though i could be missing them.
That struck me too. When I read that, it sounded like some thought that came from some kook's blog site. There was much more there than simple disagreement with Biden's withdrawal strategy. Biden's strategy can be legitimately debated with out the fallacious ad hominem, and that one really ripped a hole in The Telegraph's credibility.
I realized my Q friend doesn't know the difference between cabal and Kabul. She believes the soldiers were fighting an actual war against the cabal that Biden just gave up on. I didn't have it in me to even try. I had to let her ramble and I was embarrassed. We were standing outside and people could hear us.🤦ðŸ»â€â™€ï¸
Quote from: Cassia on September 03, 2021, 09:10:22 PM
I realized my Q friend doesn't know the difference between cabal and Kabul. She believes the soldiers were fighting an actual war against the cabal that Biden just gave up on. I didn't have it in me to even try. I had to let her ramble and I was embarrassed. We were standing outside and people could hear us.🤦ðŸ»â€â™€ï¸
Holy shit lol.
Quote from: Cassia on September 03, 2021, 09:10:22 PM
I realized my Q friend doesn't know the difference between cabal and Kabul. She believes the soldiers were fighting an actual war against the cabal that Biden just gave up on. I didn't have it in me to even try. I had to let her ramble and I was embarrassed. We were standing outside and people could hear us.🤦ðŸ»â€â™€ï¸
I'd take the opportunity to tell her that the weather in some parts of France is always Nice. :P
So remember that ISIS-K commander that we proudly boasted we killed and got revenge on (just ignore the 9 civilians who were killed along side him)?
About that... it looks like he wasn't an ISIS-K commander; rather he was a humanitarian aide worker who was delivering water to neighborhoods that our war left without water, and those civilians were his family and co-workers.
Whoopsie.
If that doesn't sum up the last 50 years of American intervention in the Middle East, I don't know what does.
https://www.nytimes.com/video/world/asia/100000007963596/us-drone-attack-kabul-investigation.html (https://www.nytimes.com/video/world/asia/100000007963596/us-drone-attack-kabul-investigation.html)
Quote from: Shiranu on September 10, 2021, 07:01:11 PM
So remember that ISIS-K commander that we proudly boasted we killed and got revenge on (just ignore the 9 civilians who were killed along side him)?
About that... it looks like he wasn't an ISIS-K commander; rather he was a humanitarian aide worker who was delivering water to neighborhoods that our war left without water, and those civilians were his family and co-workers.
Whoopsie.
If that doesn't sum up the last 50 years of American intervention in the Middle East, I don't know what does.
https://www.nytimes.com/video/world/asia/100000007963596/us-drone-attack-kabul-investigation.html (https://www.nytimes.com/video/world/asia/100000007963596/us-drone-attack-kabul-investigation.html)
(https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/829/330/6ad.gif)
Quote from: Shiranu on September 10, 2021, 07:01:11 PM
So remember that ISIS-K commander that we proudly boasted we killed and got revenge on (just ignore the 9 civilians who were killed along side him)?
About that... it looks like he wasn't an ISIS-K commander; rather he was a humanitarian aide worker who was delivering water to neighborhoods that our war left without water, and those civilians were his family and co-workers.
Whoopsie.
If that doesn't sum up the last 50 years of American intervention in the Middle East, I don't know what does.
https://www.nytimes.com/video/world/asia/100000007963596/us-drone-attack-kabul-investigation.html (https://www.nytimes.com/video/world/asia/100000007963596/us-drone-attack-kabul-investigation.html)
I can't even be outraged anymore. Like, this has happened so many times now that's it's become routine, and I literally cannot find it within me to be outraged anymore. And that's terrifying.