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Humanities Section => Political/Government General Discussion => Topic started by: Mike Cl on August 14, 2021, 08:20:12 PM

Title: The United States of Nazi America????
Post by: Mike Cl on August 14, 2021, 08:20:12 PM
“Trump Is No Hitler, But…”: ‘The Meaning Of Hitler’ Directors On Parallels Between The Führer And 45.

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/trump-no-hitler-meaning-hitler-222659350.html.

So far, trump is not close to being defeated.  If his nazi rhetoric isn't gaining traction, it is not losing it.  As the movie keeps saying--trump is no hitler.  But he does use many of hitler's more successful ploys.  What really gets me is that 40 years ago I would have told you that this could not (not ever, ever, ever) happen here.  Was I ever blind!  Not only is it in the US, it is an explosion around the world!  I simply cannot grasp why that is so.  Talk about jumping out of the frying pan into the fire!!!  But I am glad the movie is being seen.
Title: Re: The United States of Nazi America????
Post by: Cassia on August 14, 2021, 09:21:47 PM
I think there is a significant chance of a great violence or civil war. And then one generation might learn something for about 10 to 20 years.
Title: Re: The United States of Nazi America????
Post by: Mike Cl on August 14, 2021, 09:26:02 PM
I think there is a significant chance of a great violence or civil war. And then one generation might learn something for about 10 to 20 years.
I am afraid you are right.
Title: Re: The United States of Nazi America????
Post by: Biffster on August 14, 2021, 11:07:57 PM
A big part of the problem is that people will believe just about anything if they want to believe it badly enough. Just yesterday there were people honestly believing that Mike Lindell was going to show them incontrovertible proof of a stolen election and Trump would be reinstated and Biden and Harris arrested. People believe this shit. In all honesty, it’s not that hard to imagine what the German people believed the Nazis were telling them about the Jews. Confirmation bias can be a dangerous thing.
Title: Re: The United States of Nazi America????
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on August 15, 2021, 06:19:09 AM
I think there is a significant chance of a great violence or civil war. And then one generation might learn something for about 10 to 20 years.
Tim McVeigh thought the same. We're too complacent to fight a civil war.
Title: Re: The United States of Nazi America????
Post by: Cassia on August 15, 2021, 07:45:38 AM
Tim McVeigh thought the same. We're too complacent to fight a civil war.
That may have been just one seed for all this bullshit. The last civil war took decades to go hot. We could compile a list, growing in frequency right up to the recent coup attempt. The giant 2017 torchlight 'Unite the Right' rally and car-murder in Virginia was a terror attack that I found particularly disturbing. "There were good people on both sides" and "Stand back and stand by." I don't ever recall actual members of congress supporting such anti-democratic big election lies in my lifetime. Working hard for voter suppression. Millions and millions of christ's finest think they have little to lose and we need to start over. Yeah, I really hope you are correct.
Title: Re: The United States of Nazi America????
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on August 15, 2021, 07:54:16 AM
I've studied history formally and informally since the 1950s. I got bachelors in Soc and Psych so I could understand motivations better. I don't guarantee we won't have another civil war, but I see the likelihood growing less every year. I am confident that I'll be dead before one happens, if ever.
Title: Re: The United States of Nazi America????
Post by: SGOS on August 15, 2021, 08:07:13 AM
The German People pre WWII were under stress.  Their economy was a mess, their country was in debt from which  there was no end in sight, and Germany was in decline.  Is the German decline similar to the US decline?  Is there a similarity now in the US? The wealth disparity leaves the wealthy with more than they can possibly know what to do with, while the lower classes look at a future of much deeper economic woe.  Throw in global warming, which will economically devastate billions.  I think we will see a rise in religious magical thinking, and a population grasping at straws that will place bets on their salvation from Trump like demagogues.

I remember the college bull session topic, "Was Hitler a great man?"  It's purely a semantic waste of time of course.  But the German people were ready to buy it.  Not all were ready, but there was a big enough constituency to help him to power. Republicans don't really need to win elections.  They just need to win with or without a majority.  Preserving democracy is not the issue for enough people who would put democracy to sleep for good to further their own agenda, even if that agenda is motivated by misguided hysteria.
Title: Re: The United States of Nazi America????
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on August 15, 2021, 08:16:02 AM
The current state of the US is nowhere near that of pre-WWII German. At one point German workers were paid at lunchtime and spent it before it became useless. Again at knock-off, men on the way home bought whatever their pay could get them. The political parties had organized armies, not the drunken rabble that occupied that preserve in Montana (or wherever it was.)
Title: Re: The United States of Nazi America????
Post by: SGOS on August 15, 2021, 08:30:11 AM
The current state of the US is nowhere near that of pre-WWII German. The political parties had organized armies, not the drunken rabble that occupied that preserve in Montana (or wherever it was.)
I think your talking about the rabble in Oregon, but Montana preceded them many years earlier with the Montana Freemen, who printed their own money and tried to buy a million dollars worth of armaments with a check from an unrecognized "Freemen Bank of Montana."  The seller refused to sell them the guns, as the check could not be verified.  They also offered big rewards for killing various politicians payable in Freeman Dollars.  I think the actual standoff with the FBI lasted two months.  In hindsight, Montana was way ahead of the rest of the country paving the way to Trumpdom before anyone else had even thought of it.  Montana is always first in innovation, although Michigan has good footing to contest that standing.
Title: Re: The United States of Nazi America????
Post by: Shiranu on August 15, 2021, 09:19:32 AM
Michigan had an armed plot to abduct the governor, and the intelligence communities say nearly 10,000 insurrectionists were at the Capitol on the 6th. The Southern Poverty Law Center (who I think sometimes over-exaggerate but are still probably the most accurate source) identify over 576 extreme, armed, anti-government militias. If we assume each group only has 10 people (and that's obviously not true)... that alone is 5,760 armed soldiers that a president who wouldn't stick the feds or military on could utilize.

Our own law enforcement says it is the most pressing domestic threat, so I rather not write them off as just a few loons in a shed in rural Montana; they are in Texas, they are in New Mexico, they are in Colorado, California, Pennsylvania, Michigan, all over the place... and if one group succeeds in abducting or assassinating a government official you know things are going to escalate.


Edit: Speaking of numbers in these groups...


Capitol riots: Are US militia groups becoming more active? - BBC News (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-55638579)


Quote
The Oath Keepers get their name from their members pledging an oath to defend the US constitution. The Anti-Defamation League (ADL) estimates membership at between 1,000 and 3,000, but with influence stretching well beyond this.


These are cops, ex and current military, all sorts of people we rely on every day.
Title: Re: The United States of Nazi America????
Post by: aitm on August 15, 2021, 04:17:19 PM
Although I speak purely from speculation, it seems, and perhaps Zilla will correct me, that PTSD was a lot less common among those who fought in WW1 or 2 for a simple reason that thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousand soldiers were “farm boys”. Only in the idea that they had butchered animals far more than city folk, they had seen blood and guts and parts strewn about so the shock of it MAY have been lesser for them as compared to today’s soldier,(absolutely no insult intended). I think today’s “militias” are more akin to a gang of “boys” getting their hard on by shooting guns and the comaradarie (sp) of being in a like minded “quest”. Once bullets were to start flying and people start dying, then I think the whole thing will come crashing to a halt. Not only will neighbors start turning them in but the average joe seeing his kid in the crossfire is going to have serious doubts about an insurrection but more so once their own start dying the “novelty” will be short lived. They are convinced that “liberals” won’t fight back. They will be wrong and the little cowards despite their “leaders” urging them forward will quickly find more safe uses for their time. I of course, could be wrong, buts that’s how I see it. But of course, I hope it never comes to that. I am not a front line charging type of guy, harm my granddaughter and they will find out how uniquely I can come up with ways to fuck them up. I wouldn’t kill them, I would do far worse..
Title: Re: The United States of Nazi America????
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on August 15, 2021, 05:29:07 PM
There are many cases of "Shell shock" recorded during and after WWI and WWII. It's a trauma-thing and that shit can get to anybody.

https://www.ororecovery.com/8-movies-about-ptsd-post-traumatic-stress-disorder/
Title: Re: The United States of Nazi America????
Post by: Shiranu on August 15, 2021, 05:37:54 PM
There are many cases of "Shell shock" recorded during and after WWI and WWII. It's a trauma-thing and that shit can get to anybody.

https://www.ororecovery.com/8-movies-about-ptsd-post-traumatic-stress-disorder/

Yeah, I distinctly reading "Regeneration" in English class and the psychological horror and scars WW1 left people with; even though the book was written in 1991, it heavily referenced first-hand accounts of both soldiers and nurses from the war.
Title: Re: The United States of Nazi America????
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on August 15, 2021, 06:11:39 PM
Yeah, I distinctly reading "Regeneration" in English class and the psychological horror and scars WW1 left people with; even though the book was written in 1991, it heavily referenced first-hand accounts of both soldiers and nurses from the war.
I knew a guy who lost it watching "Johnny Got His Gun". He was fragile before then, and that was the last straw.
Title: Re: The United States of Nazi America????
Post by: Shiranu on August 15, 2021, 06:18:27 PM
I knew a guy who lost it watching "Johnny Got His Gun". He was fragile before then, and that was the last straw.

Haven't seen it or read the book, I'll have to watch it someday.
Title: Re: The United States of Nazi America????
Post by: Mike Cl on August 15, 2021, 06:41:52 PM
Haven't seen it or read the book, I'll have to watch it someday.
Johnny Got His Gun is a powerful book--written, I think in the late 30's and based upon WWI.  It is short and well written--very easy read, yet a true horror story in it's own right.  The movie came out in the 70's I think and is also quite powerful.  Both are worthwhile.