“Trump Is No Hitler, But…â€: ‘The Meaning Of Hitler’ Directors On Parallels Between The Führer And 45.
https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/trump-no-hitler-meaning-hitler-222659350.html.
So far, trump is not close to being defeated. If his nazi rhetoric isn't gaining traction, it is not losing it. As the movie keeps saying--trump is no hitler. But he does use many of hitler's more successful ploys. What really gets me is that 40 years ago I would have told you that this could not (not ever, ever, ever) happen here. Was I ever blind! Not only is it in the US, it is an explosion around the world! I simply cannot grasp why that is so. Talk about jumping out of the frying pan into the fire!!! But I am glad the movie is being seen.
I think there is a significant chance of a great violence or civil war. And then one generation might learn something for about 10 to 20 years.
Quote from: Cassia on August 14, 2021, 09:21:47 PM
I think there is a significant chance of a great violence or civil war. And then one generation might learn something for about 10 to 20 years.
I am afraid you are right.
A big part of the problem is that people will believe just about anything if they want to believe it badly enough. Just yesterday there were people honestly believing that Mike Lindell was going to show them incontrovertible proof of a stolen election and Trump would be reinstated and Biden and Harris arrested. People believe this shit. In all honesty, it’s not that hard to imagine what the German people believed the Nazis were telling them about the Jews. Confirmation bias can be a dangerous thing.
Quote from: Cassia on August 14, 2021, 09:21:47 PM
I think there is a significant chance of a great violence or civil war. And then one generation might learn something for about 10 to 20 years.
Tim McVeigh thought the same. We're too complacent to fight a civil war.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on August 15, 2021, 06:19:09 AM
Tim McVeigh thought the same. We're too complacent to fight a civil war.
That may have been just one seed for all this bullshit. The last civil war took decades to go hot. We could compile a list, growing in frequency right up to the recent coup attempt. The giant 2017 torchlight 'Unite the Right' rally and car-murder in Virginia was a terror attack that I found particularly disturbing.
"There were good people on both sides" and
"Stand back and stand by." I don't ever recall actual members of congress supporting such anti-democratic big election lies in my lifetime. Working hard for voter suppression. Millions and millions of christ's finest think they have little to lose and we need to start over. Yeah, I really hope you are correct.
I've studied history formally and informally since the 1950s. I got bachelors in Soc and Psych so I could understand motivations better. I don't guarantee we won't have another civil war, but I see the likelihood growing less every year. I am confident that I'll be dead before one happens, if ever.
The German People pre WWII were under stress. Their economy was a mess, their country was in debt from which there was no end in sight, and Germany was in decline. Is the German decline similar to the US decline? Is there a similarity now in the US? The wealth disparity leaves the wealthy with more than they can possibly know what to do with, while the lower classes look at a future of much deeper economic woe. Throw in global warming, which will economically devastate billions. I think we will see a rise in religious magical thinking, and a population grasping at straws that will place bets on their salvation from Trump like demagogues.
I remember the college bull session topic, "Was Hitler a great man?" It's purely a semantic waste of time of course. But the German people were ready to buy it. Not all were ready, but there was a big enough constituency to help him to power. Republicans don't really need to win elections. They just need to win with or without a majority. Preserving democracy is not the issue for enough people who would put democracy to sleep for good to further their own agenda, even if that agenda is motivated by misguided hysteria.
The current state of the US is nowhere near that of pre-WWII German. At one point German workers were paid at lunchtime and spent it before it became useless. Again at knock-off, men on the way home bought whatever their pay could get them. The political parties had organized armies, not the drunken rabble that occupied that preserve in Montana (or wherever it was.)
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on August 15, 2021, 08:16:02 AM
The current state of the US is nowhere near that of pre-WWII German. The political parties had organized armies, not the drunken rabble that occupied that preserve in Montana (or wherever it was.)
I think your talking about the rabble in Oregon, but Montana preceded them many years earlier with the Montana Freemen, who printed their own money and tried to buy a million dollars worth of armaments with a check from an unrecognized "Freemen Bank of Montana." The seller refused to sell them the guns, as the check could not be verified. They also offered big rewards for killing various politicians payable in Freeman Dollars. I think the actual standoff with the FBI lasted two months. In hindsight, Montana was way ahead of the rest of the country paving the way to Trumpdom before anyone else had even thought of it. Montana is always first in innovation, although Michigan has good footing to contest that standing.
Michigan had an armed plot to abduct the governor, and the intelligence communities say nearly 10,000 insurrectionists were at the Capitol on the 6th. The Southern Poverty Law Center (who I think sometimes over-exaggerate but are still probably the most accurate source) identify over 576 extreme, armed, anti-government militias. If we assume each group only has 10 people (and that's obviously not true)... that alone is 5,760 armed soldiers that a president who wouldn't stick the feds or military on could utilize.
Our own law enforcement says it is the most pressing domestic threat, so I rather not write them off as just a few loons in a shed in rural Montana; they are in Texas, they are in New Mexico, they are in Colorado, California, Pennsylvania, Michigan, all over the place... and if one group succeeds in abducting or assassinating a government official you know things are going to escalate.
Edit: Speaking of numbers in these groups...
Capitol riots: Are US militia groups becoming more active? - BBC News (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-55638579)
QuoteThe Oath Keepers get their name from their members pledging an oath to defend the US constitution. The Anti-Defamation League (ADL) estimates membership at between 1,000 and 3,000, but with influence stretching well beyond this.
These are cops, ex and current military, all sorts of people we rely on every day.
Although I speak purely from speculation, it seems, and perhaps Zilla will correct me, that PTSD was a lot less common among those who fought in WW1 or 2 for a simple reason that thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousand soldiers were “farm boysâ€. Only in the idea that they had butchered animals far more than city folk, they had seen blood and guts and parts strewn about so the shock of it MAY have been lesser for them as compared to today’s soldier,(absolutely no insult intended). I think today’s “militias†are more akin to a gang of “boys†getting their hard on by shooting guns and the comaradarie (sp) of being in a like minded “questâ€. Once bullets were to start flying and people start dying, then I think the whole thing will come crashing to a halt. Not only will neighbors start turning them in but the average joe seeing his kid in the crossfire is going to have serious doubts about an insurrection but more so once their own start dying the “novelty†will be short lived. They are convinced that “liberals†won’t fight back. They will be wrong and the little cowards despite their “leaders†urging them forward will quickly find more safe uses for their time. I of course, could be wrong, buts that’s how I see it. But of course, I hope it never comes to that. I am not a front line charging type of guy, harm my granddaughter and they will find out how uniquely I can come up with ways to fuck them up. I wouldn’t kill them, I would do far worse..
There are many cases of "Shell shock" recorded during and after WWI and WWII. It's a trauma-thing and that shit can get to anybody.
https://www.ororecovery.com/8-movies-about-ptsd-post-traumatic-stress-disorder/
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on August 15, 2021, 05:29:07 PM
There are many cases of "Shell shock" recorded during and after WWI and WWII. It's a trauma-thing and that shit can get to anybody.
https://www.ororecovery.com/8-movies-about-ptsd-post-traumatic-stress-disorder/
Yeah, I distinctly reading "Regeneration" in English class and the psychological horror and scars WW1 left people with; even though the book was written in 1991, it heavily referenced first-hand accounts of both soldiers and nurses from the war.
Quote from: Shiranu on August 15, 2021, 05:37:54 PM
Yeah, I distinctly reading "Regeneration" in English class and the psychological horror and scars WW1 left people with; even though the book was written in 1991, it heavily referenced first-hand accounts of both soldiers and nurses from the war.
I knew a guy who lost it watching "Johnny Got His Gun". He was fragile before then, and that was the last straw.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on August 15, 2021, 06:11:39 PM
I knew a guy who lost it watching "Johnny Got His Gun". He was fragile before then, and that was the last straw.
Haven't seen it or read the book, I'll have to watch it someday.
Quote from: Shiranu on August 15, 2021, 06:18:27 PM
Haven't seen it or read the book, I'll have to watch it someday.
Johnny Got His Gun is a powerful book--written, I think in the late 30's and based upon WWI. It is short and well written--very easy read, yet a true horror story in it's own right. The movie came out in the 70's I think and is also quite powerful. Both are worthwhile.
I think the party that has been warning us about impending fascism should be congratulated for actually implementing it.
Quote from: Jason Harvestdancer on November 12, 2021, 05:27:08 PM
I think the party that has been warning us about impending fascism should be congratulated for actually implementing it.
(https://static1.cbrimages.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/Batman-Beyond-Meme-Feature-Image-1-1.jpg)
I don't know if you meant the GOP or DNC since that applies to both...
The GOP has been less active in saying "The Fascists are coming! The Fascists are coming!"
Quote from: Jason Harvestdancer on November 12, 2021, 09:17:49 PM
The GOP has been less active in saying "The Fascists are coming! The Fascists are coming!"
Yeah. Because they are the fascists.
Serious question: I can see why many people don't like Trump's personality, but I'm curious why some associate him with National Socialism. Can someone reply with an example of a policy position he put forth that would support this assertion? Or am I just being too literal, and what was meant was that some posters just really don't like him and were just name-calling? Granted, my reply is belated and Trump isn't really relevant anymore, but I am curious.
Quote from: GodFree on November 13, 2021, 08:19:51 PM
Serious question: I can see why many people don't like Trump's personality, but I'm curious why some associate him with National Socialism. Can someone reply with an example of a policy position he put forth that would support this assertion? Or am I just being too literal, and what was meant was that some posters just really don't like him and were just name-calling? Granted, my reply is belated and Trump isn't really relevant anymore, but I am curious.
The far right has co-opted the socialist part of what the NAZIs did. They have all the fascist parts of it, replete of the socialistic part. They are upside-down on that. They don't care a pinch of feces for human rights, and will run people down in the streets if they disagree. They will attempt to throw over a legal election by violent means, as we have seen.
Quote from: GodFree on November 13, 2021, 08:19:51 PM
Serious question: I can see why many people don't like Trump's personality, but I'm curious why some associate him with National Socialism. Can someone reply with an example of a policy position he put forth that would support this assertion? Or am I just being too literal, and what was meant was that some posters just really don't like him and were just name-calling? Granted, my reply is belated and Trump isn't really relevant anymore, but I am curious.
I am sorry to say, but trump is still relevant now. He uses the Big Lie that Hitler outlined in Mein Kompf. He is a white supremist and aids those who are as well. He uses fear, much as Hitler did. He is still trying to turn the office of the Presidency into the office of the dictatorship--as Hitler did. Google 'fascism' and see how many points trump likes to use. Trump is still using the Big Lie to force repubs to do his bidding or he will destroy them. And he has given his followers and minions the green light to use hate openly. And.................on and on.
Agreed...It is the attempt to delegitimize our core democratic institutions. His shitheads came close to burning the capital down just like Hitler's brown shirts did to the Reichstag. Carrying a noose to hang the Vice President. The intelligence community, FBI and press caught Trump sucking Putin's dick-tator, so they are all terrible people. The impeached "Find me votes" Trump has never even accepted his defeat. The "Nationalism" and exceptionalism. Persecution of immigrants, flag worship, just like Nazis. He thinks the traitor Confederates can be admired and we should leave their 1950s 'historical' statues up and well hey, lets have some more torchlight racist rallies, just like the fucking Nazis. I am no fan of China, but Trump Tariffs without a back-up plan (during a pandemic) are part of the reason for inflation and empty shelves we see now.
The chump's tariffs are a joke, when one considers that many, if not most, companies moved their manufacturing facilities to the Pacific Rim. The idea with a tariff is to encourage the population to "buy local". Can't buy local if there is no local producer of said good(s). One of my friends started off talking about how the tariffs the chump imposed in 2017 were a good thing. It took a couple of times of asking him who was paying the tariff before he got it. We've lost that infrastructure, and it's going to be painfully expensive to get it back, and I don't expect manufacturing to return to the US in any meaningful way.
Quote from: Dark Lightning on November 13, 2021, 11:23:14 PM
The chump's tariffs are a joke, when one considers that many, if not most, companies moved their manufacturing facilities to the Pacific Rim. The idea with a tariff is to encourage the population to "buy local". Can't buy local if there is no local producer of said good(s). One of my friends started off talking about how the tariffs the chump imposed in 2017 were a good thing. It took a couple of times of asking him who was paying the tariff before he got it. We've lost that infrastructure, and it's going to be painfully expensive to get it back, and I don't expect manufacturing to return to the US in any meaningful way.
I hope it does return..it will take time, training, and investment and the super-wealthy might make just a little bit less, so you are probably right.
Quote from: Mike Cl on November 13, 2021, 08:19:27 AM
Yeah. Because they are the fascists.
Yet they're not the ones implementing it.
Quote from: Jason Harvestdancer on November 13, 2021, 11:56:25 PM
Yet they're not the ones implementing it.
They never will, imo. Why go back to paying union employees a living wage, when one can starve some poor sap on foreign soil, and get the same result? That's only partly sarcasm. One thing that sticks in my mind is when Apple had execs visiting their subsidy in China (Foxconn) about the frequent suicides of employees from overwork, and someone jumped off the roof when they were there. The solution was to lock the roof hatches so they couldn't get out and jump, but that rubbed up against any possible fire safety codes. Some of the shit I was subjected to while working as a mechanic is completely illegal, these days.
Out of curiosity, how would you define fascism? Because by the standard definitions I can find, both sides exhibit and enact fascist policies.
If we are just talking about the lockdowns, mandatory vaccs, etc. that would be more appropriately called authoritarianism because none of it seems to have the ultra-nationalist undertones that all definitions of fascism has.
What do you think fascism is?
Here is a definition. "A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, a capitalist economy subject to stringent governmental controls, violent suppression of the opposition, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism."
That's the open policy of the republican party. Word for word. Openly. Namely. They have planned and prepared a policy to divide people by race, religion, nation, culture in a country, where the fucking domestic intelligence -a white institution often accused of systematic racism no less- kept telling that white supremacy is the number one threat in the country for over a decade.
Quote from: drunkenshoe on November 14, 2021, 02:05:22 AM
What do you think fascism is?
Here is a definition. "A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, a capitalist economy subject to stringent governmental controls, violent suppression of the opposition, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism."
That's the open policy of the republican party. Word for word. Openly. Namely. They have planned and prepared a policy to divide people by race, religion, nation, culture in a country, where the fucking domestic intelligence -a white institution often accused of systematic racism no less- kept telling that white supremacy is the number one threat in the country for over a decade.
Yeah, that's the definition I was drawn to; it describes the Democrats to an extent as well, just not as violent and not as nationalist, but with the same end-goals; a dictatorship between two roughly identical parties that both work hand-in-hand to make sure there can be no alternative political options, an extreme capitalist society, and both fight against any substantial socialist ideology. And while not always belligerent, the racism of the Democratic party is not a concealed secret - in states with Dem majorities the policies are just as ruthlessly segregationist (sometimes even more so) as they were in the past; they just now use sneakier economic and gerrymandering tactics to not explicitly be racist.
Quote from: Shiranu on November 14, 2021, 02:17:32 AM
Yeah, that's the definition I was drawn to; it describes the Democrats to an extent as well, just not as violent and not as nationalist, but with the same end-goals; a dictatorship between two roughly identical parties that both work hand-in-hand to make sure there can be no alternative political options, an extreme capitalist society, and both fight against any substantial socialist ideology. And while not always belligerent, the racism of the Democratic party is not a concealed secret - in states with Dem majorities the policies are just as ruthlessly segregationist (sometimes even more so) as they were in the past; they just now use sneakier economic and gerrymandering tactics to not explicitly be racist.
The real difference between the parties is short vs long term thinking. Republicans want to "conserve" the past. Make America great "AGAIN". Keep America racist, religious, and ignorant. Fuck climate change. We'll be fine. Strip Alaska of every tree. Keep the coal mines going. Pandemic? What pandemic? 750K losers. They have their angel wings. No taxes! Fuck them lazy blacks and Mexicans. Arm up, drink your foreign owned 'merican shit beer. Wear your dirty old red hat while shaking with fear of atheists, brown and black people and roving gangs of homosexuals.
The Republican party has the money and is expertly manipulating the facebook masses and has been setting the agenda for the hapless Democrats for decades now. And if you are young and think conservatives are on your side or a vote of dissention is a good idea, enjoy your shitty dystopian future of reliving the past but now with floods and fires and real foreign economic competition. So how will our soft young fix this? Play video games and vote republican, of course.
Quote from: Shiranu on November 14, 2021, 02:17:32 AM
Yeah, that's the definition I was drawn to; it describes the Democrats to an extent as well, just not as violent and not as nationalist, but with the same end-goals; a dictatorship between two roughly identical parties that both work hand-in-hand to make sure there can be no alternative political options, an extreme capitalist society, and both fight against any substantial socialist ideology. And while not always belligerent, the racism of the Democratic party is not a concealed secret - in states with Dem majorities the policies are just as ruthlessly segregationist (sometimes even more so) as they were in the past; they just now use sneakier economic and gerrymandering tactics to not explicitly be racist.
In my opinion, that's a very wrong way to look at this. We've been through that. That's how everything collapsed here. There is no bottom of this. It's like reading the last of the 90s-first few years of 2000s where I live. I can't believe the change that way down to today. Remember what you have said before? Paraphrasing: "Except a few basic things, they are actually the same". Those few things turns the world upside down. You learn that life is actually very simple in a very difficult way.
Quote from: Jason Harvestdancer on November 12, 2021, 09:17:49 PM
The GOP has been less active in saying "The Fascists are coming! The Fascists are coming!"
Nah, that's usually how they announce themselves.
They also try to project it, as I'm sure you're well aware.
The GOP doesn't shout, "The Fascists are coming! The Fascists are coming!"
They shout, "The Communists are coming! Or the Socialists! Or both! I don't know what either thing means, but those words scare me!"
Totally different.
Quote from: drunkenshoe on November 14, 2021, 08:41:20 AM
In my opinion, that's a very wrong way to look at this. We've been through that. That's how everything collapsed here. There is no bottom of this. It's like reading the last of the 90s-first few years of 2000s where I live. I can't believe the change that way down to today. Remember what you have said before? Paraphrasing: "Except a few basic things, they are actually the same". Those few things turns the world upside down. You learn that life is actually very simple in a very difficult way.
From what I can find of Turkish parties, it would be as if you only had two parties; Erdogan's AKP and Bahçeli's Nationalist Movement Party. One is objectively abhorrently worse, but that doesn't mean the other is desirable.
We don't have a CHP or HDP party, both of which would be considered far-left here in America; both of our parties work towards the same end-goal, just with different ideologies of how to get there... one wants to drive slowly down the road of late-stage capitalism, the other wants to gun it 150 mph.
Obviously if I have a choice I'm going to take the guy who is driving slower, but either way I end up in a destination I don't want to end up in, and really we have no actual say in politics; the winners are chosen by the oligarchy, not by the people. Democracy died decades ago, and even then American democracy was always a bit of a joke in that you got to choose between the two people who were chosen for you.
The differences between the two parties are small, and in practice the Democrats give all those horrible things we hate about Republicans to them on a silver platter; Police brutality? Dems increase funding. Imperialism? Dems increase funding. Social services? Racism? Some of the most segregated areas in the country are in Dem states. Women's rights? Dems have had 40 years to Congressionally protect those when they had the majority and failed to do so.
"Those few things turns the world upside down." - I agree, and that's why I cant support Dems; any time they have the chance to make the right choice on those few things, or stop them from happening, they let the GOP do them anyways. Talk is cheap, and that's all the Dems have.
OK. First I wrote a long post, but I think there are few differences in both situations. I'm still thinking about it.
E: we completely agree on the system. Actually, I think it's never worked. What happened, which looked as if it worked was the change in the saddle period. It's just better, that's all. Nothing different than monarchy. Same category.
Quote from: drunkenshoe on November 16, 2021, 12:22:43 AM
OK. First I wrote a long post, but I think there are few differences in both situations. I'm still thinking about it.
E: we completely agree on the system. Actually, I think it's never worked. What happened, which looked as if it worked was the change in the saddle period. It's just better, that's all. Nothing different than monarchy. Same category.
I will say, the Dem/GOP is definitely not a like-for-like comparison... I just couldn't find a moderate enough comparison for the DNC that wouldn't be too inaccurate.
Completely agreed on the edit.
https://youtu.be/b8HeTZ7DDIA
Quote from: Mike Cl on August 14, 2021, 08:20:12 PM
“Trump Is No Hitler, But…â€: ‘The Meaning Of Hitler’ Directors On Parallels Between The Führer And 45.
https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/trump-no-hitler-meaning-hitler-222659350.html.
So far, trump is not close to being defeated. If his nazi rhetoric isn't gaining traction, it is not losing it. As the movie keeps saying--trump is no hitler. But he does use many of hitler's more successful ploys. What really gets me is that 40 years ago I would have told you that this could not (not ever, ever, ever) happen here. Was I ever blind! Not only is it in the US, it is an explosion around the world! I simply cannot grasp why that is so. Talk about jumping out of the frying pan into the fire!!! But I am glad the movie is being seen.
Godwin's Law. Didn't get much else out of it. The "ploys" in question, even if you want to liken them to that of a "totalitarian" regime are in now way exclusive to Hitler, fascism, or any "right-wing" variety of "totalitarianism".
Quote from: FreethinkingSceptic on December 19, 2021, 01:32:02 AM
Godwin's Law. Didn't get much else out of it. The "ploys" in question, even if you want to liken them to that of a "totalitarian" regime are in now way exclusive to Hitler, fascism, or any "right-wing" variety of "totalitarianism".
Maybe you need to change your name to Nonthinking Sceptic.
Quote from: Mike Cl on December 19, 2021, 09:13:01 AM
Maybe you need to change your name to Nonthinking Sceptic.
Nah, I think you need to change your name to Mike Hunt though.
Quote from: FreethinkingSceptic on December 19, 2021, 01:07:55 PM
Nah, I think you need to change your name to Mike Hunt though.
I'd much rather be Mike Hunt than a prick like you.