Sometimes a miracle is interpreted as ''coincidence''. Let's say, if I pray for it to rain, and it rains, then the chances are small, but there is 1 in 100,000 (just a stupid and simple example). But if I pray for for a chest pain to go away, and it happens, it cannot be a mere coincidence, for it is statistically impossible for me to desire something so specific and it happens right after I said it. So there must be a cause and effect relationship. That's the problem with miracles.
How do we refute this?
I don’t consider your scenario to be a miracle. Maybe if you prayed for a third leg or asked to fly your house to to a better location.
Quote from: Paolo on March 12, 2021, 11:36:38 AM
Sometimes a miracle is interpreted as ''coincidence''.
Isn't it the other way around? Something happens and people assume that it's some sort of miracle when it's really not.
QuoteLet's say, if I pray for it to rain, and it rains, then the chances are small, but there is 1 in 100,000 (just a stupid and simple example). But if I pray for for a chest pain to go away, and it happens, it cannot be a mere coincidence, for it is statistically impossible for me to desire something so specific and it happens right after I said it.
Both examples are basically the same thing, the only difference is that chest pain is a less common occurance, but the fallacious post hoc logic is the same. In short, it doesn't logically follow that because something happened shortly after something else, that there is some sort of causal connection, miraculous or not.
The classic example of the post hoc fallacy is thinking about your friend calling you and shortly after, your friend calling you. But what doesn't get examined as much as it should is the frequency with which you think about your friend and the frequency that your friend calls you. Instances where one happened without the other go unremarked, which makes the rare roughly simultaneous event seem much less coincidental than it actually was
Sometimes a miracle is interpreted as ''coincidence''
A miracle is always a coincidence by definition. There is not one scientifically accepted case of any "supernatural" event. The laws of physics remain unchallenged. A scientific accepted miracle would be the biggest event in human history. Yet with billions of faithful prayers every single day, nothing.
If the Pope himself flipped a coin 1,000 times and prayed for heads every time, his prayers would go unanswered around 500 times.
Littlewood's Law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Littlewood%27s_law): if you define a miracle as something that very rarely happens to people - a one-in-a-million chance - then miracles happen thousands of times a day.
Quote from: Paolo on March 12, 2021, 11:36:38 AM
Sometimes a miracle is interpreted as ''coincidence''. Let's say, if I pray for it to rain, and it rains, then the chances are small, but there is 1 in 100,000 (just a stupid and simple example). But if I pray for for a chest pain to go away, and it happens, it cannot be a mere coincidence, for it is statistically impossible for me to desire something so specific and it happens right after I said it. So there must be a cause and effect relationship. That's the problem with miracles.
How do we refute this?
First one needs to define what a miracle is. For you, what is a miracle?
Quote from: Mike Cl on March 12, 2021, 01:25:55 PM
First one needs to define what a miracle is. For you, what is a miracle?
Apparently heartburn stopped...
Quote from: Hydra009 on March 12, 2021, 12:47:32 PM
Littlewood's Law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Littlewood%27s_law): if you define a miracle as something that very rarely happens to people - a one-in-a-million chance - then miracles happen thousands of times a day.
I actually had one of those today, I was stopped behind some guy in Traffic and he just a regular license plate, not one of those vanity plates. The first symbols on plate were letter UGY. I thought to myself, "That plate is 1 letter short of UGLY." What are the chances that I would see such a plate today? What are the chances of me even noticing a license plate on any day? And I was 48 miles from home, not 47 or 49, but exactly 48. What are the chances that I would see that license plate when I was exactly 48 miles from home. The weather was predicted to be cloudy, but the sun was out when I saw it. What are the chances I would see a standard license plate that almost spelled a funny word, when I hardly ever look at license plates, when I was exactly 48 miles from home, and the sun was out at that particular moment, when it was supposed to be a cloudy day? I wish that I would have marked the time to the second, because seeing it exactly when I did would be amazing.
Once I saw a puddle that exactly fit the hole it was in. How do you refute that is not a miracle?
Quote from: SGOS on March 12, 2021, 08:57:22 PM
I actually had one of those today, I was stopped behind some guy in Traffic and he just a regular license plate, not one of those vanity plates. The first symbols on plate were letter UGY. I thought to myself, "That plate is 1 letter short of UGLY." What are the chances that I would see such a plate today? What are the chances of me even noticing a license plate on any day? And I was 48 miles from home, not 47 or 49, but exactly 48. What are the chances that I would see that license plate when I was exactly 48 miles from home. The weather was predicted to be cloudy, but the sun was out when I saw it. What are the chances I would see a standard license plate that almost spelled a funny word, when I hardly ever look at license plates, when I was exactly 48 miles from home, and the sun was out at that particular moment, when it was supposed to be a cloudy day? I wish that I would have marked the time to the second, because seeing it exactly when I did would be amazing.
Once I saw a puddle that exactly fit the hole it was in. How do you refute that is not a miracle?
:2thumbs: Gotta love it!
I had a miracle happen to me yesterday. It was raining and I had to take out the trash to the curb. When I stepped off my porch a drop of rain hit my forehead. How many rain drops are there in a rain cloud, especially when the rain was happening for hours. But one hit my forehead--what would the statistical probability be of that one, that exact one, hitting me in the forehead? It would have to be trillions and trillions (or what is larger than that? ) to 1; yet that exact rain drop hit me--gotta be a miracle. What else could it be????
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0Mc8zkDwhs
You idiots don't understand. I will be more specific. Not that it will help, since the best you can do is apparently insult people.
Anyway...
The first example was a mere coincidence, it could certainly be argued.
I was wrong with my second example, though. It didn't get the point across.
Anyway, let's substitute the example...
Let's say someone with severe, almost mortal CHEST PAIN (yes, did not change much) was being ''laid hands on'' by someone who claimed to be a miracle worker. Then that person stopped feeling that pain after being prayed for. Now you would not be convincing in saying it was a coincidence, for how could the pain stop right after the praying words?
You could PERHAPS justify that it was psychosomatic, that maybe because the person wanted to be healed, and believed, then she was able to ''self-cure''. But NO ONE would deny the causal relationship between the prayer and the ''cure''. Or at least you could deny, but you would not be convincing to anyone.
That's a bit clearer now?
NO ONE would deny the causal relationship between the prayer and the ''cure''. Or at least you could deny, but you would not be convincing to anyone.
..Yeah, to fake pain and then its relief seems so impossible. What a miracle. At that very moment a small child or ten died of real observable disease and/or starvation as the gawd was busy with fake chest pain.
Everybody understands what are you talking about very well. Because they've had this very conversation many times with other people.
Have you ever wondered why do these miracle workers almost always work with some sort of an audience or some people, some group following them? There is always some specific groups witnessing, some 'testimony' if you will, and sharing their doings. Is there any miracle worker without an active community constantly following them in some way to watch, confirm, applaud, cherish how they 'heal' perfect strangers? Why don't these miracle workers just do their job by themselves, get paid and go on to their way?
Do we have an audience when a physician examines us? Do we watch, follow our physicians examining, treating other patients, people who we know nothing about and become ecstatic, explode with joy... get together to talk about it when they cure people, as a group (or online), telling others over an dover again? No. Most of the people don't want to even talk about their health situation with their close friends. Why don't we do all that? Physicians treat and cure people all the time. They diagnose sicknesses without visible symptoms, people don't know they have.
Think about surgeons operating 10-15 hours straight...operating much longer than that when necessary? Why don't we gather around them, make groups for them praying and following with applaud? What they do is superior to what you call 'miracle' in every aspect because they know what they are doing; what it works or doesn't; even when they don't, they know the probable cause. There is nothing mysetrious about it. But then isn't it some sort of a 'miracle' to the laity, esp. when your loved ones or you are on the operating table because we don't really know how/what they do, do we?
I won't get into any terminal illnesses people have horribly suffered until a few decades ago which today we can survive and even manage our lives. Because if you'd lived a hundred years ago, you would have died of diabetes. Fucking diabetes. It was a terminal lillness exactly a hundred years ago and that's shorter than a possible human life span. So forget praying and praising, let's worship these people, why not?
But we don't do that, do we? While everyone perfectly knows that these people save lives everyday, we don't gather around or follow phsycians and surgeons, screaming prayers, cry in ecstacy, talking to some spirit, some energy whatever...because they do NOT need people to believe in what they are doing, watch, witness or do any of that to do it successfuly, while 'miracle workers' have to work people around them and create a community, and a collective 'testimony' otherwise nobody would get 'healed'.
Because there is no 'healing' or 'curing', but something just like baptism, confession -without actually confessing something with words- some sort of feeling of absolution, something marking the patient as accepted; as healed back into some group with a fresh start.
But the person is not feeling pain anymore. She is well now, she got 'cured'. No. Yes, I can deny it. Every kind of mumbo jumbo defined as 'alternative' to medicine is dangerous for the individuals and the society. For starters, there is no such thing as 'alternative medicine' because there is no such thing alternative to medicine. Roughly, why this bullshit is so dangerous in many levels:
- The person can have a serious, actual illness with various different, changing-shifting symptoms that come and go -which is the usual deal- develop in various states... but being convinced she is cured, she would ignore them and cause it to become far worse, and even lose her chance of being treated or cured. After all, if somebody's in great pain constantly, they can't function and would already end up in an a hospital anyway. So these 'miracle' cases have certain traits. These people are probably functional and often suffer from trivial cases which can become serious as a result of this bullshit.
-These 'Miracle' or any kind of energy, belief, prayer healing bullshit performances sometimes are done in private; secondly, sometimes with prescription of some subtsances along with it. With the latter somebody could end up crippled, even dead. Simple as that. Because there is nothing behind it. And they do all the time.
With the former, they provide perfect circumstances for sexual, emoitonal...any kind of abuse, esp. for children. While medical personnel everywhere are under scrutiny for any kind of abuse, malpractice attached to specialised laws, strong ethical codes, licences for their practices, these 'miracle workers' are just sharalatans, some sort of spritiual, religious men and women who people automatically trust because of their position, taking their 'license' from stupidy and ignorance; universe or some god or some...whatever you call it. There is no definition of what they do. Because whatthey do doesn't exist. Because if it did exist, they would be working in hospitals, it would be another industry, they would make far more money.
-There is no such thing as 'psychcosomatic medicine', because there is no such thing as 'psychosomatic illness'. The idea belongs to tenth century Persia, probably it was a revolutionary one at the time. However, there is no medical, scientific evidence for it.
And the worst thing is this pushing of 'positive outlook', 'fighting spirit', 'not having the right attitude' harms tons of actually ill people in a lot of cases because they believe it's their failure.
-Financial abuse of any kind of sick, most efficiently terminally ill people. They basically prey on sick people in many different levels, drain their life savings, inflict al kinds of emoitional abuse because when the 'miracle' doesn't work obviously their faith is not strong enough.
-Medicine is not just one of the major fields and industry in human culture but it is attached to it many different ways. When more people start to believe in 'alternative medicine' in any way, the society gets sick. Pun intended in every way. First, it literally gets sick because anti-vaccinators are huge masses everywhere now and many diseases that were wiped out is BACK because of it. Losing the secular principle of trusting medicine to do its job -doesn't matter what your belief is- results in every kind of corruption, it is the mother of all kinds of mumbo jumbo and end always with body count. Always. Period. And then you get deamons impregnating women, 5G conspiracies...all kinds of conspiracies... and you can't fight back against a pandemic.
So yeah...fuck any kind of 'miracle' healer with a barbwire. If you feel chest pain, first go to a doctor. Then you can pray at home or somewhere with anyone you want after that...play chakra or send energies, crystals, angle cards...etc. However, if you are living in a country/culture with the luxury of medicine -because it is a fucking luxury- and insist on doing this to yourself and others, I wish you'd be removed from the gene pool as soon as possible, and call it 'natural selection'.
Miracle cures are widely known to be effective against diseases and injuries that don't exist. For actual injuries or organ failures, a doctor is recommended.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uff9NyK4S_g
Quote from: Paolo on March 13, 2021, 02:43:10 AM
You idiots don't understand. I will be more specific. Not that it will help, since the best you can do is apparently insult people.
I think the irony of that message above is probably beyond your ability to understand. You are heavy on the insulting and name calling. Your communication skills are severely lacking. You struggle to ask a coherent question. And when you repeatedly fail to communicate what it is you are trying to say, you revert to what you are--a person who tries to shift the blame to the people you are addressing. How old are you? 12?
Again, your bar for “miracles†is awfully...awfully low.
Quote from: aitm on March 13, 2021, 08:41:55 AM
Again, your bar for “miracles†is awfully...awfully low.
I can actually relate to Paolo is a vague distant way. All those years that I kept trying to justify faith in the supernatural while I was beginning to process more and more through logic, I kept trying to hold the door open, if only a crack, to things that were obviously irrelevant nonsense. I guess I justified that under religion's "God works in mysterious ways" clause. What I didn't do was post silly questions in the hopes of challenging others in atheist forums. Nor was I quite as gullible. At most, I would ask close friends if they actually thought there might be some sort of god, which was the only unanswerable that seemed relevant to my life. Issues like miracles or who a preserved tongue actually belonged too are unimportant and a waste of time.
No one can give you the answers to unsolvable problems. That you must do on your own or ask yourself if it's even worth effort. Or you can join a cult and be told what to think.
Quote from: Paolo on March 13, 2021, 02:43:10 AM
You idiots don't understand. I will be more specific. Not that it will help, since the best you can do is apparently insult people.
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ee/15/38/ee153870d525bd1507ed39ea04e661f1.jpg)
Quote from: aitm on March 13, 2021, 08:41:55 AMAgain, your bar for “miracles†is awfully...awfully low.
It reminds me a lot of Gman's argument by miracles. Suffice it to say that's not a flattering comparison.
Quote from: Paolo on March 13, 2021, 02:43:10 AMThe first example was a mere coincidence, it could certainly be argued.
I was wrong with my second example, though. It didn't get the point across.
Anyway, let's substitute the example...
Let's say someone with severe, almost mortal CHEST PAIN (yes, did not change much) was being ''laid hands on'' by someone who claimed to be a miracle worker. Then that person stopped feeling that pain after being prayed for. Now you would not be convincing in saying it was a coincidence, for how could the pain stop right after the praying words?
I'd love to hear why praying for rain and it raining shortly after and therefore concluding that the act of praying caused it to rain contains fallacious logic and could just be coincidence but praying for someone's pain to go away and their pain going away shortly after and therefore concluding that the act of praying caused the chest pain to go away is sound logic and not a coincidence.
Are these arguments structured differently at all?
And it's not like pain often comes and goes away on its own, right?
QuoteBut NO ONE would deny the causal relationship between the prayer and the ''cure''. Or at least you could deny, but you would not be convincing to anyone.
Confidently incorrect.
You know what would be really impressive? Take a man with an amputated leg and heal it back into existence. That would be hard to explain. But some stranger being healed of their invisible pain? Uh, no. That's a scam.
Yeah, it is kinda suspicious that prayers just do what could plausibly happen anyways.
Hey, wait a minute! Thoughts and prayers have fixed a huge number of things in this country--like mass killings, recovery from disasters (natural and manmade) sicknesses and on and on. Yep--fixes things right up! And that is a miracle.
Paolo is, apparently, not going to share with us what he means by a miracle. So, I will take a stab. It is another one of those words with multiple meanings and often one person uses it in one way and another is another way. They are not talking about the same thing. This is how it is defined in a dictionary:
"Definition of miracle
1: an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs
the healing miracles described in the Gospels
2: an extremely outstanding or unusual event, thing, or accomplishment
The bridge is a miracle of engineering.
3Christian Science : a divinely natural phenomenon experienced humanly as the fulfillment of spiritual law
Synonyms."
My grandpa lived through miraculous times. He was born in the 1880's and died in the mid 70's. He saw the invention of the auto, radio, tv, airplanes, travel to the moon; any of those could be called a miracle. And it seems to me that the go to word when we don't know what the answer is or how something works, is 'miracle'. 'We don't know, yet.' would cover it better than miracle.
Hume had a good working definition. Miracle in the supernatural sense (as opposed to the colloquial sense, which is just a rare and usually beneficial event) means a divine intervention in the world to create an otherwise physically impossible event - a complete contravention of the normal operation of nature.
For example, a prophet walking on water or a mountain moving out of his way or laying on hands to instantly cure grievous wounds or the long-buried dead coming back to life. Those are things that under any remotely normal circumstances just can't happen.
I think a 'miracle' is some sort of a situation which people want to be dazzled, amazed, astonished strongly, feel awe but do not want to know what it actually is because than it would lose that 'miracle' quality. The unknown, mysterious part is the important part. Because it has 'infinite' potential.
When science demonstrates and explains things, phenomena and events, it requires knowledge or time, work, energy put in to understand all that. And most of the time, it is not really even possible to understand it in the real sense.
Now which one is consumed easily? Miracles. Which ones look less threatening? Miracles. I think most people are simply afraid of science and while they have a natural aversion to it, they also understand it is an incredible power. And they see miracles or mumbo jumbo as something challenging, competing against science, checking it... :lol:
Quote from: drunkenshoe on March 14, 2021, 03:37:17 AM
I think a 'miracle' is some sort of a situation which people want to be dazzled, amazed, astonished strongly, feel awe but do not want to know what it actually is because than it would lose that 'miracle' quality. The unknown, mysterious part is the important part. Because it has 'infinite' potential.
When science demonstrates and explains things, phenomena and events, it requires knowledge or time, work, energy put in to understand all that. And most of the time, it is not really even possible to understand it in the real sense.
Now which one is consumed easily? Miracles. Which ones look less threatening? Miracles. I think most people are simply afraid of science and while they have a natural aversion to it, they also understand it is an incredible power. And they see miracles or mumbo jumbo as something challenging, competing against science, checking it... :lol:
Indeed. When I think about the physical mechanics of a what would comprise a so called "miracle cure", it is a bit frightening. An all powerful god that created the entire universe (too immense for human comprehension) has entered our physical world and is
manipulating certain molecules and cells just for a particular individual, as others suffer and then die. So this person is supposedly cured, just to die later anyways. It is the most cruel situation. Of course every member of different religions prays to different gods. And with the so called religious "near-death-experiences" (NDEs) the person encounters their particular god or prophet. Christian don't recover from their NDE and talk about Mohammad and vice-versa. It is as Hitch says...a solipsism of the worse kind.
LOL Personal gods and prophets... Something for your entertainment.
I think it was the very beginning of the pandemic. In some forum, there was this thread about dreams. You know, why we dream about the specific things we do. (I remember my dreams very often, they are vivid, overwhelming, stupid and I think because of my education and occupation, all my life I had many dreams about historical figures, mythical characters, artists, philosophers, gods...you name it.)
Anyway, I told about some that affected me deeply like everyone else aaand Jesus dreams. But didn't even tell about them and just said that I had those dreams. And there was this reverend who knew I was an unbeliever, we had conversations about it. You know that type, they are 'extra' friendly with 'people like us'? Lol... He was nice, wanted to talk about this stuff...and we did it openly. He didn't try to preach me or anythin like that. They don't try that with me for some reason in general. Probably because where I live.
The thing is he couldn't believe, how a nonbeliever, middle eastern woman who hasn't been indoctrianed in anyway can have casual dreams of walking and talking Jesus Christ. It was fascinating for him.
I've tried to explain that I have studied classical art history, and the German tradition we were tortured with dictated that you memorised the whole fucking christian iconography, while at the other side being bombarded by all kinds of images of him and other biblical figures in every kindof scene which means that in total, after just 4 years of a major, you had seen thousands of images of Jesus Christ in every style. Probably, more than I have seen my own. No kidding. I have 10 years with general Western art history after that. Going on with that it is very ordinary and standard for students like me to have those dreams. Probably, I was trying to delete and make room. Get it out, you know. That it is very common for art and art history students even to go around in paintings or murals, seeing the characters in their dreams.
Nope. It's fascinating and it has a 'meaning' because it's his god. I have told him that I have seen Moses once or twice... a fucking giant Prometheus leaning towards to my face to talk to me 'telepathically' in a dark cave, hiding from giant, organic, very vivid Egyptian gods walking around in thousands of years of huge black marble dungeons -trust me there are very few things scarier than seeing Anubis walking around in a vivid nightmare- and I still shiver remembering those, I have no idea what's my deal with Ancient Egyptian gods deep in my mind... but Nope. It's Jesus Christ. Obviously, he is involved. I love him and obviously I'm a good person.
Quote from: drunkenshoe on March 14, 2021, 09:56:06 AM
Nope. It's fascinating and it has a 'meaning' because it's his god. I have told him that I have seen Moses once or twice... a fucking giant Prometheus leaning towards to my face to talk to me 'telepathically' in a dark cave, hiding from giant, organic, very vivid Egyptian gods walking around in thousands of years of huge black marble dungeons -trust me there are very few things scarier than seeing Anubis walking around in a vivid nightmare- and I still shiver remembering those, I have no idea what's my deal with Ancient Egyptian gods deep in my mind... but Nope. It's Jesus Christ. Obviously, he is involved. I love him and obviously I'm a good person.
Now that's some serious dreaming. I don't think I ever had a Jesus dream. And a Moses dream? Now that's something. How many people dream of Moses?
Quote from: Paolo on March 13, 2021, 02:43:10 AM
Let's say someone with severe, almost mortal CHEST PAIN (yes, did not change much) was being ''laid hands on'' by someone who claimed to be a miracle worker. Then that person stopped feeling that pain after being prayed for. Now you would not be convincing in saying it was a coincidence, for how could the pain stop right after the praying words?
You could PERHAPS justify that it was psychosomatic, that maybe because the person wanted to be healed, and believed, then she was able to ''self-cure''. But NO ONE would deny the causal relationship between the prayer and the ''cure''. Or at least you could deny, but you would not be convincing to anyone.
That's a bit clearer now?
Moron, it was always clear.
And once again, you provide us a hypothetical that could have so many natural and mundane explanations, to consider a supernatural explanation is the most likely, is the height of irrational thinking.
First of all, how was it determined that the chest pain was 'almost mortal'?
Off the top of my head:
It could have been a panic attack, that when the claimed faith healer laid on their hands, the person suffering the attack, calmed down.
It could have been an angina, a sometimes transitory condition, that feels as intense as a heart attack, but can go away quite quickly on it's own, and the 'faith healer' had nothing to do with it.
It could have been a momentary interruption of the electrical signal in the heart, causing the pain and panic, that went away on its own, and the 'faith healer' had nothing to do with it.
There, 3 simple examples, that could easily explain how and why the person with the chest pain got better.
Let me ask you something.
What if the situation happened exactly as you stated, but the person that did the miracle healing, was a West African shaman, and the person recovered from their chest pain after he performed some ancient African ritual.
Would you still believe it was the supernatural ritual of the African that was responsible for the person recovering?
And let me add another question.
Why is that Catholics do not have better survival outcomes of literally any disease, or surgery? Why do Christians and Catholics get cancer, get into deadly car accidents, get heart attacks, etc, etc, etc, at EXACTLY the same rates as Jews, Muslims, Mormons, and non believers?
Quote from: SGOS on March 14, 2021, 01:00:56 PM
Now that's some serious dreaming. I don't think I ever had a Jesus dream. And a Moses dream? Now that's something. How many people dream of Moses?
A lot? People who have to deal with excessive visual and textual material of the sort. You study iconography with Old and New Testament texts... scene by scene. Traditional art history teaching is based on brainwashing with images starting from the archaic, ancient examples as said. So to build a repository in the mind; memory and to assimilate the eye, in a linear sense and reaching all the way up to the contemporary. Development of fine art is based on religions, specifically Christianity. I don't think they are doing that anymore. I hope not.
It's not just the images. I've translated a long, complicated book that dealt with every kind of relations, links between possible prehistoric myths, religious traditions and Judaism - Christianity. It took a long time, it was a crazy one. My dream life's gone crazy along with it and I already had a source in my head and a vivid dream life. It's telling of mythic poetry and of all the gods, ancient egyptian, nordic, greek, roman, abrahamic...So you read and read and look and read and look...you imagine when you write it down. You live in it.
Moses is a collective character made of clan chiefs of Jewish tribes and he has a described, specific image. In this sense, gods and prophets are all the same male figure with changing faces through time. So, Moses is a just a stop at that chain of continously changing image in my head. And my mind offers descriptions of him in all that process and offers a result. For example the early Moses I have seen when I as young was a white bearded, clean old, calm white man in robes. Out of the Western paintings. The last Moses I've seen was a primitive tribe chief with a huge antler head dress, brown bearded, dirty, bloody warrior with piercing eyes; unsettling apperance. Like that one better. Mind upgrades, puts an order to things and get it out. (Also, it could mean that some texts are always more intense than images because nothing is more powerful over us than our own imagination.)
So basically, it is too much for your brain and it's taking out the garbage to make room. Although it is an ordinary, simple process, people usually don't talk about it because it is about religion. It's awkward, it's weird. Religious traditions load, attach 'meaning' to this nonsense, dreaming about religious characters is something from religions themselves.
I also think that probably nonbelievers are more likely to dream about these characters compared to believers. Because the meanings are completely different. To me it's anthropological knowledge about human culture, it has an evolution like everything else and it is about cultures transforming characters to construct functional myths according to the times. But to them, it is real and they never change. That's the point of them. They would be less likley to dream about them as casual dudes going around having small talk, and probably that's why it is a big deal when they dream about it in a 'divine' manner.
But then it is just dreams...does it have a straight logic? Would it really work, if it has? It's gibberish in images.
Quote from: Mike Cl on March 13, 2021, 08:30:42 AM
I think the irony of that message above is probably beyond your ability to understand. You are heavy on the insulting and name calling. Your communication skills are severely lacking. You struggle to ask a coherent question. And when you repeatedly fail to communicate what it is you are trying to say, you revert to what you are--a person who tries to shift the blame to the people you are addressing. How old are you? 12?
It is not ironic, because insult is not ''the best'' I can do. Contrary to what you said, I can communicate pretty well, in my own view, even though as I said once before, English is NOT my first language. And people here have insulted me first, simply because I asked a ''stupid'' question in that other thread (even though, pathetically, they cannot even define what ''stupid'' would be in that case); you expect me to simply accept that, quietly? I will fight back because I'm within my rights, being insulted with no proper justification.
To answer your question: I'm 26 years old, and I live in Brazil (not U.S.A. like most of you, it seems). I suppose you will now call me retarded or something? Congratulations!!! You are the king of the world!!! :rotflmao:
I don't think that Paolo is looking at this from one religion point. He keeps shifting to a specific cone because that is the one he was born into.
As far as I understand, he actually understands that the 'healing' process may not be real, that it could be anything that is not actually related to the problem and is momentary. He says, 'but the person is healed and "cured" from his/her point of view because he/she is feeling good now and that is as a situation and an experience is undeniable for the other parties. "
He is looking something extraordinary, be it 'supernatural' or not; some secret and divine meaning deep inside that is forgotten and always missed by everyone. Because there has to be a 'nonmaterial' something behind all this. E: And I think he also thinks, if it is there, it can't be in one religion.
Here is my prophecy for you Paolo. After this phase you'll discover the 'secret' workings of human brain that there is something spiritual hidden in it, an 'evidence' for soul which all scientists actually agree with anyway. :signmuahaha:
Quote from: drunkenshoe on March 15, 2021, 04:15:24 AM
So basically, it is too much for your brain and it's taking out the garbage to make room. Although it is an ordinary, simple process, people usually don't talk about it because it is about religion. It's awkward, it's weird. Religious traditions load, attach 'meaning' to this nonsense, dreaming about religious characters is something from religions themselves.
To me it's anthropological knowledge about human culture, it has an evolution like everything else and it is about cultures transforming characters to construct functional myths according to the times. But to them, it is real and they never change. That's the point of them. They would be less likley to dream about them as casual dudes going around having small talk, and probably that's why it is a big deal when they dream about it in a 'divine' manner.
But then it is just dreams...does it have a straight logic? Would it really work, if it has? It's gibberish in images.
Your dreams are not like mine. They are not just different in content, but I get the impression that your mind and your dreams process your environment differently than the way my brain works. I seldom dream about things, people, or characters I am deeply involved with or skills and studies that I have worked hard on. My dreams are usually mundane to an extreme, involving people that I barely know or care about. They are more on the order of a casual conversation with a passerby... Usually. I do have intense dreams, but only on rare occasion, but seldom involve characters or people I know.
I can't remember ever dreaming about Jesus, let alone Moses. Nor am I moved in any way by religious art. I like art a lot. Even as a kid in my teens I would take the subway to downtown Chicago to visit the Art Institute, where they had a room devoted to maybe billions of dollars of Christian art. I've been impressed by the sizes of the canvas, and the artwork itself is of good quality, but beyond that, I have no feeling or interest. That room was always an obligatory stop on the way to the "good" stuff, paintings I could become part of and identify with without having to struggle to put myself into, and what those paintings might be that held my attention were always surprises causing me to wonder why I liked them.
(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/s0MAAOSwp0BeqM2F/s-l500.png)
But then even as a kid, God and Jesus were boring. I accepted the miracle stories and believed them, but ask me to define what I mean by boring, and I immediately have an image of sitting on a pew in church with my mind wandering to playing outside.
Unlike your anthropological interest, my interest in religion centers mostly around the psychology of what makes people believe in modern mythological ideas. Humanity has been through this for millennia, over and over believing in one absurdity after another, but always thinking the absurdity currently in vogue has finally got it right. It puzzles me no end. But I don't dream about it. I never had a dream about Sigmund Freud either.
Quote from: drunkenshoe on March 15, 2021, 04:36:47 AM
I don't think that Paolo is looking at this from one religion point. He keeps shifting to a specific cone because that is the one he was born into.
As far as I understand, he actually understands that the 'healing' process may not be real, that it could be anything that is not actually related to the problem and is momentary. He says, 'but the person is healed and "cured" from his/her point of view because he/she is feeling good now and that is as a situation and an experience is undeniable for the other parties. "
Possibly, but I disregard his posts because he processes information like a theist, not like a skeptic. Everything he offers takes on the format of, "Yeah, but... <insert theist apologetic here>." He is unable to realize that an apologetic is a fallacy, or if he does, he presents it anyway as a defense. He then follows up by admonishing us for not taking a fallacy into consideration, as if skeptics should be obligated to think about some supernatural claim for the hundredth time, and if we fail to get it, then for the 101th time, and the times after that until we legitimize it.
It's possible that he has trapped himself in a personal world inundated by fanciful claims, and thinks he can't find his way out until he settles all issues important or not. It's also possible that he is a theist posing as a person seeking reasonable discussion. Or maybe he is still trying to rid himself of his religious baggage, but afraid of letting it go. At any rate he doesn't know how to communicate with skeptics, although he seems to be claiming he's the best skeptic around.
What we do here is not rocket science. We don't spend much time giving due consideration to the cosmological argument for God. We have done that formally or informally on our own long before we ever heard the names for the more fashionable philosophical arguments. Why should we care about the preserved tongue deemed to be a special Catholic icon or other meaningless claims of religion?
Quote from: SGOS on March 15, 2021, 06:46:42 AM
Your dreams are not like mine. They are not just different in content, but I get the impression that your mind and your dreams process your environment differently than the way my brain works. I seldom dream about things, people, or characters I am deeply involved with or skills and studies that I have worked hard on. My dreams are usually mundane to an extreme, involving people that I barely know or care about. They are more on the order of a casual conversation with a passerby... Usually. I do have intense dreams, but only on rare occasion, but seldom involve characters or people I know. ...
Yeah...everybody's different, but I think we remember very little portion of our dreams and I'm not sure that it is even related to how we think. I dream about many various things like everyone else, I just remember them more often. I don't really 'enjoy' religous paintings. That's a very small amount of my dreams. (Alos, for some reason, Hopper fits you very good, lol.)
Quote from: SGOS on March 15, 2021, 07:31:05 AM
Possibly, but I disregard his posts because he processes information like a theist, not like a skeptic. Everything he offers takes on the format of, "Yeah, but... <insert theist apologetic here>." He is unable to realize that an apologetic is a fallacy, or if he does, he presents it anyway as a defense. He then follows up by admonishing us for not taking a fallacy into consideration, as if skeptics should be obligated to think about some supernatural claim for the hundredth time, and if we fail to get it, then for the 101th time, and the times after that until we legitimize it.
It's possible that he has trapped himself in a personal world inundated by fanciful claims, and thinks he can't find his way out until he settles all issues important or not. It's also possible that he is a theist posing as a person seeking reasonable discussion. Or maybe he is still trying to rid himself of his religious baggage, but afraid of letting it go. At any rate he doesn't know how to communicate with skeptics, although he seems to be claiming he's the best skeptic around.
He doesn't know how to think like a sceptic. But this is not just something about people battling with religious belief or trying to make sense of these things for this or that reason, for the last few decades a very distorted sense of 'scepticism' is dominant everywhere. You could say that there is a crisis about it.
He is in the youngest millenial group. These kids were born into social media. They grew up with memes. Youtube videos explanations. There is no balance between literal and metaphoric thinking/understanding for them. They are highly literal, believer or nonbeliever. The name of concepts, words, terms, including newage moronic terms, their definitions and meanings are so blurred, bastardised, emptied... honestly, I don't blame them either. What was at the hand's reach for me at that age is burried under an enormous commercial overlay today...Depressing subject overall. Wait for the Z's to get old enough to drop in. That will be the real entertainment.
I get where Paolo is, what is he doing... At this point, it is a need, he'll do it. But he's years away, let me tell you.
Quote from: Paolo on March 15, 2021, 04:33:34 AM
It is not ironic, because insult is not ''the best'' I can do. Contrary to what you said, I can communicate pretty well, in my own view, even though as I said once before, English is NOT my first language. And people here have insulted me first, simply because I asked a ''stupid'' question in that other thread (even though, pathetically, they cannot even define what ''stupid'' would be in that case); you expect me to simply accept that, quietly? I will fight back because I'm within my rights, being insulted with no proper justification.
To answer your question: I'm 26 years old, and I live in Brazil (not U.S.A. like most of you, it seems). I suppose you will now call me retarded or something? Congratulations!!! You are the king of the world!!! :rotflmao:
I will say that you do rather well for a person who writes in their non native language. But some of the nuances of the language escape you--that is not a put down, but a constructive criticism. When you write a somewhat confusing or unclear statement or question, your first response is to insult and name call. It would be more constructive if you told the person who addresses your question that they misunderstood, that your are posting in your non native language and then rephrase your statement or question to make it more clear what it was you were actually asking or saying.
I suspect that if you were to come to this country for a visit, your command of English would be good enough to make your visit go smoothly--you would do well. In a casual setting your English would be excellent. But speaking well enough to get around well is not the same as having an easy time when discussing philosophical topics. That type of discussion requires a more nuanced ability which would come only with practice I'd think. When you make those types of mistakes, your first reaction is to name call and become defensive; it would be more productive for both yourself (we learn best if we can accept our mistakes and learn how to correct them) and the person you are addressing.
BTW, Paolo, since you are from Brazil, what do you think of your current leader and government? It looks to me like you have a leader that is very trump-like in that he seems to be very authoritarian and destructive of human rights. But I will admit that I have not looked very deeply into the subject.
Quote from: drunkenshoe on March 15, 2021, 08:52:22 AM
for some reason, Hopper fits you very good, lol.)
Yikes, that's hardly the most uplifting painting. I've heard it described as "desolate," but I don't think it can be described by a word. It's more like, "Well, you just had to have been in that situation to understand it." Chicago's Art Institute owns that painting, and a couple years ago, when I visited my sister in Chicago, we went there to see it, but it turns out it was on loan to some gallery in Europe, so my sister bought me a coffee mug and refrigerator magnet embossed with Hopper's painting from the museum gift shop. The refrigerator magnet is top quality; It sticks so hard to the refrigerator, it's like it's glued on. lol
Quote from: SGOS on March 15, 2021, 09:40:13 AM
Yikes, that's hardly the most uplifting painting. I've heard it described as "desolate," but I don't think it can be described by a word. It's more like, "Well, you just had to have been in that situation to understand it." Chicago's Art Institute owns that painting, and a couple years ago, when I visited my sister in Chicago, we went there to see it, but it turns out it was on loan to some gallery in Europe, so my sister bought me a coffee mug and refrigerator magnet embossed with Hopper's painting from the museum gift shop. The refrigerator magnet is top quality; It sticks so hard to the refrigerator, it's like it's glued on. lol
That's a good description, lol. My mother loves him. I don't know, it is not that bleak, imo... I like that there is some warmth and hope in that blunt, plain world, hidden so naturally. Maybe that's why he is a good realist. I mean can you see those things if you don't look hard in reality, without fooling yourself? They're there. You need to let it go to see it. Become that plain to feel it, I mean. I like the one with the young woman sitting in a cafe. E: it could be a diner...
[There was this American novel I have read so long ago...I picked up coincidentally...It was telling about a movie producer in 50s and his daughter? Can't remember anything. But I always remember the feeling that book gives. It was like reading Hopper in a sunny, boring room. Or maybe he wrote Hopper reading his paintings, what do I know...]
They make those stuff really solid. I have a Schiele and a Marc sitting side by side on the ref door. They didn't give in, in almost 15 years. Nope. But my little coin magnet Schieles are hanging by a thread on my desk lamp...
Quote from: Mike Cl on March 15, 2021, 09:16:16 AM
I will say that you do rather well for a person who writes in their non native language. But some of the nuances of the language escape you--that is not a put down, but a constructive criticism. When you write a somewhat confusing or unclear statement or question, your first response is to insult and name call. It would be more constructive if you told the person who addresses your question that they misunderstood, that your are posting in your non native language and then rephrase your statement or question to make it more clear what it was you were actually asking or saying.
I suspect that if you were to come to this country for a visit, your command of English would be good enough to make your visit go smoothly--you would do well. In a casual setting your English would be excellent. But speaking well enough to get around well is not the same as having an easy time when discussing philosophical topics. That type of discussion requires a more nuanced ability which would come only with practice I'd think. When you make those types of mistakes, your first reaction is to name call and become defensive; it would be more productive for both yourself (we learn best if we can accept our mistakes and learn how to correct them) and the person you are addressing.
Thanks, Mike. I will try from now on to be less agressive, and more patient with folks here. You are probably correct, maybe the fact that English is my second language is affecting these debates.
Quote from: Paolo on March 16, 2021, 11:14:03 AM
Thanks, Mike. I will try from now on to be less agressive, and more patient with folks here. You are probably correct, maybe the fact that English is my second language is affecting these debates.
Paolo, no problem. I like to get the view of people from different countries--and we have a few that post here regularly. I don't remember anyone from Brazil, tho.
Quote from: Mike Cl on March 15, 2021, 09:21:54 AM
BTW, Paolo, since you are from Brazil, what do you think of your current leader and government? It looks to me like you have a leader that is very trump-like in that he seems to be very authoritarian and destructive of human rights. But I will admit that I have not looked very deeply into the subject.
I could give a more elaborate response, but for now, I will say that I have no sympathy towards Bolsonaro or any of his government buddies. And I mean that not as persons, of course, but the as politicans mainly. Though they also seem to display repulsive behavior very often in the media.
Quote from: Simon Moon on March 14, 2021, 07:19:14 PM
Moron, it was always clear.
One wonders whether I am the only one who engages in childish and unnecessary ''name calling''...