Why do people believe in election fraud this year? This article resonated with me. I've often wondered why conspiracy theories spread and become commonplace. And this brief opinion piece put much of my own thoughts into writing. My first thought is that conspiracy theories are fun, just like believing in the supernatural is fun. It's what drives people's interest in many horror films. The unproven is even fun for me.
Conspiracy theories thrive on a knowledge vacuum. If you do not know if something is true or not true, there is a certain attraction to accepting a conspiracy theory as true because you can't prove it's not true. It's not just fun. In a perverse way it's also fashionable to talk about anything from crop circles to the deep state, as if you are actually knowledgeable and "privy" to little known insider "truths."
It's true that there have been conspiracies that were real. Nixon's cover up being one, but actual conspiracies on a large scale are almost always unproven. It's very hard for a group larger than three people to keep their mouths shut.
Gossip is fun, and conspiracy is great gossip. An if a certain theory supports your own odd narrative, and you are predisposed to believing what you cannot know, you become deeply involved in an absence of factual information.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/05/opinion/sunday/trump-election-fraud.html?campaign_id=39&emc=edit_ty_20201207&instance_id=24784&nl=opinion-today®i_id=129705843&segment_id=46252&te=1&user_id=33a2a6e6868fd65c48b0f219d16ed7c2
Quote
The conspiracy-curious normie
I say “normie†to reflect the reality that being open to the possibility of conspiracies is itself extremely normal and commonplace. There is nothing unusual, statistically speaking, about believing that a Cold War-era deep state assassinated John F. Kennedy or that the government is concealing evidence of U.F.O.s. Conspiracy theories are common among Democrats as well as Republicans: Witness the polling on Russia’s supposed tampering with vote totals in 2016 or George W. Bush’s supposed foreknowledge of the Sept. 11 attacks; recall the voting-machine theory spun to explain John Kerry’s narrow defeat in 2004.
This means you don’t need a complex story about Facebook or Fox News to understand why a person who isn’t intensely political might nonetheless be open to the idea that an election settled by tens of thousands of votes in a few key states was actually fixed for the winner. That kind of openness is just human nature â€" and not the worst part of human nature, either, given that conspiracies and cover-ups exist (the military really has been hiding weird evidence of U.F.O.s!) and even wrongheaded theories often partake of a reasonable skepticism about elite malfeasance, from the Gulf of Tonkin era to the Jeffrey Epstein case.
This year's election tampering is classic. Trump's lawyers have brought charges to court without any evidence of truth based on Trump's claims without evidence. Believing in the unproven is satisfying I'm sure. And it's satisfying to Trump and his deplorables. But if your objective is to bring down democracy or grab power, either shit or get off the pot.
Election fraud is true every year. Democracy is a way to fool the Deplorables into thinking they have a choice. Elections exist to ensure regular change of power among elites. The US isn't a democracy, it is a republic, same as Nazi Germany or the Soviet Union (aka we don't have a king). Elections prevent irregular change of power thru coup (see anti-Trumpers 2016), revolution (see Nazis and commies) or rebellion (see Democrats). As a republic the US is a violently militant threat to the rest of the world (which is why bringing the US further onto the world stage was the second biggest mistake the Europeans made, the first being attempted suicide, twice).
It is completely rational, that political parties are organized crime syndicates (trying to control political machinery for fun and profit, great machinery being more attractive). Crime syndicates are always involved in actual conspiracy to commit felonies (where is Jimmy Hoffa?). The Media has been complicit from the beginning, going back to the election of 1800 at least, telling half truths and lies and encouraging partisanship. It was the Federalists, Washington and Adams, who were the last non-partisan leaders. Jefferson (south vs north east) created partisanship by running against and defeating the second term of John Adams. Early partisanship led to the formation of the two parties we have today, the Democrats being founded by President Jackson (west vs north east) ... the Republicans going back to the National Republican Party founded by John Quincy Adams to oppose President Jackson (north east vs west).
People who think otherwise, in any country, simply ignore the reality of organized crime. The Democrats claims to be G-d's chosen is BS of course, same as the opposite Republican claim (US is a mostly Christian country, atheism is minor here). As an Independent for the last 25 years, I was the one selling popcorn (not Corn Pop). Switch hitters are hated in baseball by pitchers.
Society is bifurcated, and the only support the fringe has is "lies, and rumors of lies".
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on December 08, 2020, 01:11:04 PM
Society is bifurcated, and the only support the fringe has is "lies, and rumors of lies".
Fringe is kosher if it is tzitzil ;-) Welcome to 1860 ;-(
I believe 2020 itself is a catalyst in this. People are more isolated, driven to taking an even more online life, exposing them not only to more made up bullshit, but creating more of it themselves in turn. All the while simultaneously taking away both the daily distractions of work and social interactions to stop your brain from obsessing over dumb shit and taking away the relativating and grounding effects friends and family might have.
Because one party loses pretty much
Religion has paved this road.
Quote from: Cassia on December 08, 2020, 04:56:28 PM
Religion has paved this road.
Of course, worship of money ;-) I love it myself.
This is a caricature of what I read a little about and think. (I'm bored, I don't want to work.)
It's not the religion who paved the road exactly, but it's was the best material in its day -reformation vs counter reformation wars- and it has evolved something beyond that. Culturally, it's the literacy and spreading of literacy itself in Western civilisation that paved the road to the culture of conspiracy theories. Because secular or religous, it has a stereotype, and it hasn't changed much since the 17th century. It's the bloody fucked up transition to the written culture as we understand it. sure there has been a written culture for a long time but who did it belong to?
In a nutshell, as you may guess, after the printing press there wasn't just a rise in amount of printed material that got around but also people who can read them. And in time, this weird ability called reading went down to ordinary people who had no idea about the 'real' lives of the monarchs or the 'real' goals of certain religous groups and so called political wings who have been dictating their lives since which seemed like the dawn of time. Sure, there has always been rumours, sayings, this and that, and as the verbal culture was practically the only culture between them, and the legend of something scribbled on some surface meaning a lot was something beyond their reach, something they surely can't comprehend. Something they were detached.
Imagine a human being experiencing, trying to comprehend the idea for the first time that some little shapes juxtaposed on a little surface have meaning. (We don't usually look at it this way because whatever we've dealt, naturally, belongs to the pen holders of any time.) Yes they do see writings on ruins, churches...etc. But it is not the same thing, is it? Holding a paper with something written on it to mean something is very different.
This is the beginning of charlatanry. Writing gibberish words on little papers and sell them to people to wear around their necks so they won't get sick or they will get better. How do you know it is gibberish? What the clergy, the aristocracy, simply the learned men write and speak, sound and look gibberish too. It's looked that way for a looong time.
How can even the learned men know what is meaningless and hoax? There, somebody wrote a book called the 'Secret History of Jesuits'. Then another one wrote on about what kind of a slut Empress Thedora was. Another best seller was the Secret Love Life of Louis the 14th or then the secret life of Maria Antoinette. What did she say again? The secret lives, conspiracies of cardinals and popes, kings and queens...etc. Adultry, every kind of debauchery and infamy, oh my god. The wars. So those ones didnt attack the others but these ones attacked them but they forged letters and papers?!
Most importantly, countless dialogues, plays, romances, novels, stories written about wars and soldiers tied to real characters or implied the real characters, sometimes named after them, sometimes used ancient names to define them; writing about the present via the ancient past. Exactly like what Arthur Miller did with The Crucible to criticise the communist paranoia created by the US gov. in the 20th century. Think about the interest people showed to the book and movie called Da Vinci Code in the 21st century and imagine people reading something 'secret' or 'private' life about their king or queen or some pope, cardinal, high ranking soldier couple of hundred years ago.
Oook. Suddenly -of course not suddenly lol- it looks like these people put there by god to rule over us while not really different than us and they are the worst! They don't do things for the reasons they say they do, do they? Who knows what kind of stuff is going on back there in courts...churches, places...etc. Look at all the secret histories, memoirs and novels written! We are on to them. It's the Catholics, the Vatican! They have the money and the power. No, it is the Protestants! It's obviously Jesuits! They're everywhere. It's the Spanish! No, it was the Jews all alone! Nope, it's the Nazis. No, it's the communists! It's the CIA. It's the Mossad. It's the aliens! It's the Muslims. It's the feminists! No, it's the patriarchy! No, it is the Jews again. They have the sources and power. It's the Satanist! No, it is the illimunati. Ha! It's just the few families ruling the world for hundreds of years, they are the reptilians!
There are hundreds of books written and printed over and over again in the last 300 years with the title of Secret History of... They are all describing the same understanding and the fear in similar ways. There is this fear bucket and it gets filled whatever the fashion of the day is. Be it aliens or Jesuits or Communists.
According to the modern historians, most of the historical ones are completely made up. And you can read some of them online, they're pretty hilarious. Even paparazzi culture is the result of this, for example. What is going on behind the curtains somewhere, of someone rich and powerful, popular.
The irony is this madness of making things up in fear in its historical struggle looks like the turmoil that gave birth to concepts of criticism and scepticism and the concept of context itself as we understand them. Modern understanding of the past; history, social disicplines... The rest is Not So Secret History of Human Bullshit. The history of Early modern Europe is so fucking crazy and bloody... we still know jack about it.
It's also a means of sanction. Today, the circle is very narrow and if you want to do something 'bad' you have to worry about whistleblowers, paparazzi...
Conspiracy theories are much like religions. Both are based on incomplete thought processes, lack of reasoning skills, and a predisposition toward confusing belief with knowledge. I don't know if I would say religion paves the way to conspiracy theories, but they are so similar that it's more like religion provides an excellent set of training wheels.
Take religion out of the picture, and the "theories" would still exist, because they survive on human gullibility and our species' weakness for logical fallacies. We have the capability to rise above nonsense, and some do, but most lack the motivation.
The big problem with religion is that it is indoctrinated during the formative years of early childhood. Imagine for a moment if you please...what would the situation be like today if children were taught instead to think rationally and seek valid evidence and employ critical thinking from the get-go? If fairy tales were presented as delightful fantasy and that imagination is great fun but the earnest quest of truth will bring a much more fulfilling life than self-delusion.
Really Left children should turn their parents into the commissars. It was popular during the Cultural Revolution in China. How dare parents raise children, only The Party can do that!
All atheists agree, Karl Marx is the real Magic Jew (conspiracy theory).
Recent interview/video where the Chinese admit everything regarding corruption in America. They quickly took it down (failed to obey asymmetrical warfare rules of Sun Tzu). Every American will sell their mother, for the right amount (except Trump .. he takes a lot more money to bribe probably).
Quote from: SGOS on December 07, 2020, 09:14:56 AM
Why do people believe in election fraud this year? This article resonated with me. I've often wondered why conspiracy theories spread and become commonplace. And this brief opinion piece put much of my own thoughts into writing. My first thought is that conspiracy theories are fun, just like believing in the supernatural is fun. It's what drives people's interest in many horror films. The unproven is even fun for me.
Mostly for the same reason the other people believed in election fraud last time - they don't like it that they lost.
Quote from: Jason Harvestdancer on December 09, 2020, 06:54:26 PM
Mostly for the same reason the other people believed in election fraud last time - they don't like it that they lost.
Worse, no human being can stand to be wrong. It took millions of lives to prove to Italian and German voters, by 1946, that they were wrong!
There is a significant amount of nonbelievers, and secular people who believe in every kind of conspiracy theories. Yeah...we all know what religion is. But for the last few decades or so it's started to be just convenient to blame it all on religion, if you ask me.
The answer is always the same, 'they're stupid and selfish'. It's exactly like the reaction people give whenever someone shoots random strangers around or in shcool. 'He is mentally ill' or 'Oh he was a pyscho'...etc. No, they are not. They are not stupid and the others are not mentally ill.
We miss something crucial with human nature as in terms of anthropology, we don't get it. 'Conspiracy theories are like religions' are not enough for me because organised religion has too many profits and benefits compared to these conapiracy theory groups. It's incomparable. Although, something tells me that if we looked we'd see that the latter has much higher education and income in average.
The bulk of conspiracy theories are meant to attack a person or group. Organizations like Fox News, OANN, or NewsMax, gain viewers by "revealing" conspiracies. The angy, frustrated little people who want things to be "better" (to their advantage) find the supposed flaws in the opposition handy points of attack.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on December 10, 2020, 09:28:35 AM
The bulk of conspiracy theories are meant to attack a person or group. Organizations like Fox News, OANN, or NewsMax, gain viewers by "revealing" conspiracies. The angy, frustrated little people who want things to be "better" (to their advantage) find the supposed flaws in the opposition handy points of attack.
CNN and MSNBC and Twitter and Facebook and YouTube ... gain viewers by "revealing" conspiracies. Or simply "bad news" sells. Follow the money, it is about advertising revenue, not about virtue. Media are the 4th branch of government? Not!
Quote from: drunkenshoe on December 10, 2020, 05:27:22 AM
There is a significant amount of nonbelievers, and secular people who believe in every kind of conspiracy theories. Yeah...we all know what religion is. But for the last few decades or so it's started to be just convenient to blame it all on religion, if you ask me.
The answer is always the same, 'they're stupid and selfish'. It's exactly like the reaction people give whenever someone shoots random strangers around or in shcool. 'He is mentally ill' or 'Oh he was a pyscho'...etc. No, they are not. They are not stupid and the others are not mentally ill.
We miss something crucial with human nature as in terms of anthropology, we don't get it. 'Conspiracy theories are like religions' are not enough for me because organised religion has too many profits and benefits compared to these conapiracy theory groups. It's incomparable. Although, something tells me that if we looked we'd see that the latter has much higher education and income in average.
Communist Manifesto = greatest conspiracy theory of all time .. led by actual conspirators.
Quote from: Cassia on December 09, 2020, 08:36:14 AM
The big problem with religion is that it is indoctrinated during the formative years of early childhood. Imagine for a moment if you please...what would the situation be like today if children were taught instead to think rationally and seek valid evidence and employ critical thinking from the get-go? If fairy tales were presented as delightful fantasy and that imagination is great fun but the earnest quest of truth will bring a much more fulfilling life than self-delusion.
Adam Serwer of The Atlantic would probably agree with you. Trump's most loyal supporters don't really care about facts, they care about their team captain winning. If all the mail-in ballots were thrown out and every vote verified, Trump's supporters wouldn't accept the results unless Trump was declared the winner. Trump can lie, say things that are factually, verifiably untrue, and it doesn't matter because to his supporters this is about good versus evil and a lie told for a higher purpose can be forgiven. Atheists can pick apart scripture, expose all the inconsistencies, and the True Believer's faith remains intact.
If You Didn’t Vote for Trump, Your Vote Is Fraudulent (https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/12/voter-fraud/617354/)
... The rubbish claims of fraud continue. Trumpism demands the profession of beliefs that are neither strictly literal nor exactly figurative, but instead statements of ideological values that don’t fit neatly in either category. These statements are not amenable to journalistic fact-checking, because they are not factual claims; they are assertions of identity and political legitimacy that are incontestable on their own terms. To announce loudly that you accept the proclamations of the Church of Trump, no matter how false, contradictory, or exaggerated, is to identify yourself as a member of that faith community; to deny them is to risk excommunication. As long as devotion to the Trumpian creed remains a central tenet of membership in the Republican Party, precious few elected officials will risk the brand of the heretic. ...
The majority of people who make such declarations understand that in fact, Trump did not win, that he received fewer votes than his opponent, and that the Electoral College result reflects that loss. But they support Trump’s claims that the vote was fraudulent, and his efforts to pressure Republican officials in key states to overturn the result. To Trump’s strongest supporters, Biden’s win is a fraud because his voters should not count to begin with, and because the Democratic Party is not a legitimate political institution that should be allowed to wield power even if they did. ...
When they say the 2020 election was stolen, Trumpists are expressing their view that the votes of rival constituencies should not count, even though they understand, on some level, that they do. They are declaring that the nation belongs to them and them alone, whether or not they actually comprise a majority, because they are the only real Americans to begin with.
Fact ... Dems nominated a senile criminal owned by China, who is the head of his own crime family, connected to other Dem crime families. Dems totally ignore facts, just like any other Mafia.
Dems count the ballots of dead people, illegals, double voting etc. There are no Dems who I would accept as fellow citizens (if I were American). You left the Union in 1860.
"TRUMP JUST ANNOUNCED ANOTHER HISTORIC MIDDLE EASTERN PEACE DEAL, TRUMP SHOULD WIN NOBEL PEACE PRIZ.." ... Dems support PNAC since 2001. Dems and Repubs share same spot in Hell after they die, double surprised Pikachu faces
Quote from: Baruch on December 10, 2020, 04:11:24 PM
Fact ... Dems nominated a senile criminal owned by China, who is the head of his own crime family, connected to other Dem crime families.
I'm not going to address the "fact" of Biden being a "criminal owned by China" but I am interested in the comment that Biden is senile, because that is in my area of expertise. I'm posting this video because Dr. Grande articulately expresses my own thoughts on this topic.
https://youtu.be/xDIpfm3eQ4M
It's laughable when a delusional psychopath calls his opponent unfit. Even if it's true, the psychopath had to go. Yeah, not great choices this year, but it was clear who had to be shown the door.
My candidate X is not senile is not criminal ... because feelings and group think. Also there is no truth no morality no legality. All news I don't like is fake news if I don't like it.
Election result doesn't need to be thrown out. All D & R need to be thrown out (1860 and 2020). China and Russia laugh.
Italians voting for Mussolini, Germans voting for Hitler deserved to die. USA is no exception.
1860 ... R are real Americans
2020 ... D are real Americans
They both are that is the real problem. Lincoln's inaugural speech in 1864. But Lincoln was evil because he wasn't a woman a gay or Black.
USA = USSR = failed tyranny
Quote from: Jason Harvestdancer on December 09, 2020, 06:54:26 PM
Mostly for the same reason the other people believed in election fraud last time - they don't like it that they lost.
Hey, moron. The only person who claimed voter fraud last election was Trump. He couldn't believe that he lost the popular vote. Democrats never claimed massive voter fraud gave Trump the win.
Quote from: Blackleaf on December 11, 2020, 01:25:47 AM
Hey, moron. The only person who claimed voter fraud last election was Trump. He couldn't believe that he lost the popular vote. Democrats never claimed massive voter fraud gave Trump the win.
Hillary et al engaged in election interference 2016-2020, first with Russian support, now with Chinese support. Dems never accepted 1860 or any election since.
Quote from: Blackleaf on December 11, 2020, 01:25:47 AM
Hey, moron. The only person who claimed voter fraud last election was Trump. He couldn't believe that he lost the popular vote. Democrats never claimed massive voter fraud gave Trump the win.
And the investigation into Russian interference never happened.
Quote from: Jason Harvestdancer on December 11, 2020, 09:21:21 AM
And the investigation into Russian interference never happened.
No, the AJ Barr investigation isn't happening ... why is Hunter not in cuffs? AJ Barr is Deep State, same as Comey etc.
Gotta love it ...
"I never made any bathtub gin or had anyone liquidated" - Al Capone, because I had underlings do it for me ;-) Same thing with Hitler, he never personally killed anyone. Totally innocent.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMo_XmSgeLo
Media are lying commie shits since 1963 or before ...
Quote from: Jason Harvestdancer on December 11, 2020, 09:21:21 AM
And the investigation into Russian interference never happened.
Moving the goal post now, are ya? The discussion is voter fraud. I'm not playing with you if you're just going to try to distract me and hope I won't notice.
Quote from: Blackleaf on December 11, 2020, 04:55:10 PM
Moving the goal post now, are ya? The discussion is voter fraud. I'm not playing with you if you're just going to try to distract me and hope I won't notice.
Russiagate was a giant conspiracy theory by people who were upset that they lost.
Quote from: Blackleaf on December 11, 2020, 04:55:10 PM
Moving the goal post now, are ya? The discussion is voter fraud. I'm not playing with you if you're just going to try to distract me and hope I won't notice.
I would want the Dems exterminated, even if they never stole a single election, a single vote. Not because I love Trump either. The Dems are evil (which is why I love them).
Quote from: Jason Harvestdancer on December 11, 2020, 05:39:57 PM
Russiagate was a giant conspiracy theory by people who were upset that they lost.
Never happened. These jokers posted multiple times, fake pictures of Putin/Trump gay love. Which is funny since most people here are pro-gay ;-)
Quote from: Jason Harvestdancer on December 11, 2020, 05:39:57 PM
Russiagate was a giant conspiracy theory by people who were upset that they lost.
Being upset that you lost isn't equal to trying to undermine the democracy by throwing out legal votes, claiming victory when you clearly lost. Here's your L. Take it and go.
Quote from: Blackleaf on December 11, 2020, 07:06:25 PM
Being upset that you lost isn't equal to trying to undermine the democracy by throwing out legal votes, claiming victory when you clearly lost. Here's your L. Take it and go.
So there is a right way to undermine democracy and a wrong way to undermine democracy?
Quote from: Jason Harvestdancer on December 11, 2020, 08:47:52 PM
So there is a right way to undermine democracy and a wrong way to undermine democracy?
Democracy is dead. This is a D+R cage battle to the death. Anyone want popcorn?
Quote from: Jason Harvestdancer on December 11, 2020, 08:47:52 PM
So there is a right way to undermine democracy and a wrong way to undermine democracy?
Holding a President accountable is undermining democracy?
Quote from: Blackleaf on December 11, 2020, 09:05:31 PM
Holding a President accountable is undermining democracy?
You actually think that is what Russiagate was? Seriously?
Quote from: Jason Harvestdancer on December 11, 2020, 09:08:43 PM
You actually think that is what Russiagate was? Seriously?
Yes. And the CIA found evidence of intent of collusion. The question isn't if Trump wanted to, it's if he successfully pulled it off. And Democrats didn't make up the Russia thing either. Republicans were saying that about him...before they elected him and suddenly had to pretend he was a saint.
Quote from: Blackleaf on December 11, 2020, 09:16:18 PM
Yes.
Sucks to be you then.
So saying the election was tampered with and there was cheating is a conspiracy theory, except for when it's not a conspiracy theory, so if you say it happened you aren't a conspiracy theorist, except for when you are a conspiracy theorist.
Oh, and pointing out your inconsistencies means I must be a conservative, because only conservatives point out progressive inconsistencies. I'd say the same thing to a conservative who believe the exact opposite order of what is real and fake, because they are also inconsistent, and he'd call me a liberal. Because, like you, he thinks the world is divided into exactly two camps (neither less nor more) and if I'm not with him I'm against him.
I would find it funny to watch you argue with said conservative on which side I am on.
Quote from: Jason Harvestdancer on December 11, 2020, 09:37:59 PM
Sucks to be you then.
So saying the election was tampered with and there was cheating is a conspiracy theory, except for when it's not a conspiracy theory, so if you say it happened you aren't a conspiracy theorist, except for when you are a conspiracy theorist.
Oh, and pointing out your inconsistencies means I must be a conservative, because only conservatives point out progressive inconsistencies. I'd say the same thing to a conservative who believe the exact opposite order of what is real and fake, because they are also inconsistent, and he'd call me a liberal. Because, like you, he thinks the world is divided into exactly two camps (neither less nor more) and if I'm not with him I'm against him.
I would find it funny to watch you argue with said conservative on which side I am on.
Snipping one word and ignoring the crux of the argument. You basically just proved my point.
When's the last time a Conservative accused you of being a Liberal? Forgive me if I'm a bit skeptical. This is what drives me crazy about the Alt-Right. You align yourself completely with the Right, you agree with every right wing
propaganda news article you can find, you oppose all policies meant to benefit racial, sexual, and gendered minorities, but you pretend to be on the fence because you prefer Libertarians over Republicans. I have not seen a single post of yours that could have you mistaken for a Liberal.
You might not think it, but I do actually value intellectual stimulation from talking to people who disagree with me. I changed from being Christian to being an atheist, and from being a Conservative to being a Liberal, because my curiosity overcame my brainwashing. Just don't try feeding me any bullshit, and be honest.
I fail to see the virtue in centrism when a person sees both sides as evil. I think people see it as the safest label to hide behind. It's also the most ambiguous. I'm not much impressed with centrism. I think it's intended to be a virtue, but I don't see it as anything special.
Quote from: Blackleaf on December 11, 2020, 10:09:09 PM
When's the last time a Conservative accused you of being a Liberal? Forgive me if I'm a bit skeptical. This is what drives me crazy about the Alt-Right. You align yourself completely with the Right, you agree with every right wing propaganda news article you can find, you oppose all policies meant to benefit racial, sexual, and gendered minorities, but you pretend to be on the fence because you prefer Libertarians over Republicans. I have not seen a single post of yours that could have you mistaken for a Liberal.
The alt-rights hate libertarians even more than conservatives do. Wow. And you have decided that I "oppose all policies meant to benefit racial, sexual, and gendered minorities". I'd say I'm not sure how you got to that conclusion except I know exactly how you got to that conclusion.
"He opposes Biden, therefore he hates minorities." That's exactly how you got to that conclusion.
Quote from: Blackleaf on December 11, 2020, 10:09:09 PMYou might not think it, but I do actually value intellectual stimulation from talking to people who disagree with me. I changed from being Christian to being an atheist, and from being a Conservative to being a Liberal, because my curiosity overcame my brainwashing. Just don't try feeding me any bullshit, and be honest.
And yet you still think there are only two sides, which contradicts everything else in that paragraph.
Quote from: Blackleaf on December 11, 2020, 09:05:31 PM
Holding a President accountable is undermining democracy?
Like warmonger Obama, and Michelle's new bottom, the Shrub, yet another warmonger? How about Killary and her sex maniac husband ... about helping to destroy Yugoslavia and Iraq under the coolest President ever (because he plays the sax, and sex)?
Quote from: Blackleaf on December 11, 2020, 09:16:18 PM
Yes. And the CIA found evidence of intent of collusion. The question isn't if Trump wanted to, it's if he successfully pulled it off. And Democrats didn't make up the Russia thing either. Republicans were saying that about him...before they elected him and suddenly had to pretend he was a saint.
CIA is G-d, just ask Jack, Bobby and Martin ;-( The FBI and Secret Service aka SS helped. But the FBI sat on Hunter's laptop and Joe's many acts of corruption and treason. The snowflakes of today, if faced with 1940/41 wouldn't defend themselves, they would have a good cry and ask Hitler/Tojo for forgiveness ;-))
The collusion amounts to ... anyone who had prior business in Russia, is a Putin bottom aka a Capitalist. And amounts to ... Putin is Satan (because he doesn't tolerate gays, but Xi is OK, because he does tolerate gays?) aka consorts with homophobes.
Quote from: SGOS on December 12, 2020, 05:46:31 AM
I fail to see the virtue in centrism when a person sees both sides as evil. I think people see it as the safest label to hide behind. It's also the most ambiguous. I'm not much impressed with centrism. I think it's intended to be a virtue, but I don't see it as anything special.
The centrists are evil, just ask about comments about who I voted for in 2016 ;-) Centrists aren't just evil, they are more evil!! So funny if any human being speaks of .... virtue. Should always wrap oneself in the flag and the Bible first ;-) One flaming sack of shit says to another ... you are on fire, you stink!
Quote from: Jason Harvestdancer on December 11, 2020, 08:47:52 PM
So there is a right way to undermine democracy and a wrong way to undermine democracy?
Of course. Trotsky way is wrong, Stalin way is right, or I send you to gulag!
All Americans lost election, even if I, Stalin, counted silly ballots, because you are still in the US, in the US, in the USSR, boys, you don't know how lucky you are, boys ... in the US, in the US, in the USSR!
Americans are slaves in colony of Chinese Communist Empire, now in temporary collusion with international running dogs of Capitalism (see NEP in USSR early 20s), where if you are bad enough to be employed, you are a serf. Serfs/slaves have no vote (for real), have no need of guns to defend their stinking Kulak selves. Back to the cotton fields, put on Black face like Canadian PM y'all, and stop bitching!
Quote from: Jason Harvestdancer on December 12, 2020, 08:20:03 AM
The alt-rights hate libertarians even more than conservatives do. Wow. And you have decided that I "oppose all policies meant to benefit racial, sexual, and gendered minorities". I'd say I'm not sure how you got to that conclusion except I know exactly how you got to that conclusion.
"He opposes Biden, therefore he hates minorities." That's exactly how you got to that conclusion.
I got to that conclusion by seeing your thought process, which follows the Alt-Right playbook.
Quote from: Jason Harvestdancer on December 12, 2020, 08:20:03 AMAnd yet you still think there are only two sides, which contradicts everything else in that paragraph.
No. Just because I don't think that
you are in the center doesn't mean I don't believe there are more than two sides. Why do I have to explain this to you, for fuck sake...?
See, I believe Baruch is in the center. He's hard to read, but a constant with him is that he loves being a contrarian. Since we're mostly left of center here, that means he is generally making arguments against the Left. He's annoying, but I don't reject the idea that he's not particularly loyal to either extreme. You, on the other hand, do not appear to be a contrarian. While Baruch criticizes both sides, I've yet to see you make any criticisms of the Right, beyond the vague "they both suck" sentiment I hear from even the most extreme Conservatives.
QuoteThe alt-rights hate libertarians even more than conservatives do.
I lol'd.
Quote from: Jason Harvestdancer on December 12, 2020, 08:20:03 AM
The alt-rights hate libertarians even more than conservatives do.
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/d4/fb/01/d4fb01f72b8e246ff0f2a5ac2276d09f.jpg)
Dems are gods, or is it Reps are gods ... I am so confused! Both claim to know the intimate details of public figures they have never even met.
Quote from: Blackleaf on December 12, 2020, 03:54:11 PM
I got to that conclusion by seeing your thought process, which follows the Alt-Right playbook.
So "he opposes Biden and Trump, therefore he opposes Biden, therefore he opposes minorities" is in the alt-Right playbook now.
Quote from: Blackleaf on December 12, 2020, 03:54:11 PMNo. Just because I don't think that you are in the center doesn't mean I don't believe there are more than two sides. Why do I have to explain this to you, for fuck sake...?
So now there's only two directions, and anyone who isn't in one of those two directions is center.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f8/Nolan_chart.svg)
For the record, I don't think you are left either. We are opposites, but not a left-right opposite.
Christ, I hate alignment systems.
(https://i1.wp.com/the-avocado.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/alignment-chart.jpg?resize=800%2C768&ssl=1)
(https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/images/7/7d/alignment_chart_alignment_chart.png)
Simple analysis .. humans are evil. Earth needs to be sanitized by Force ;-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASsNtti1XZs
Klatu is Jesus. So why do atheists believe in aliens and flying saucers?
"From their Lockstep Hunger Games playbook, “Even after the plandemic faded, this more authoritarian control and oversight of citizens activities stuck and even intensified.â€" ... maybe 270 million poor people will die next year because of Covid disruption. All so that upper middle class pot smokers, fentanyl slaves and their Chinese masters can flourish, so that Walmart, Amazon, MS and Apple will be the sole surviving businesses in the US.
"Australian government terminates deal to purchase 51 million doses from University after false-positive HIV test results" ... this and early test results in India that identified HIV strands ... does not mean that Covid was manufactured, that it was gene spliced between coronavirus and HIV, or that it is a Chinese bioweapon, or that the Chinese released it deliberately as a start to WW III.
"The forensic audit of 22 Dominion Voting Systems machines had been authorized on December 4th by an Antrim County judge after it was found that the Dominion machines had flipped 6,000 votes in the historically Republican county from Trump to Biden." ... all discussion of voter fraud is treason ... according to DNC and their MSM minions. Even though Dominion machines were originally developed to steal elections in Venezuela. Incoming orders from Beijing Biden ...
æ»ï¼Œæµæµªç‹—，æ»
===
Just found typical grad school student ... computability theory starts with Karl Marx, not with Alan Turing ;-( Lysenkoism applied to math, not just biology. University is a super-spreader of commies.
Quote from: Jason Harvestdancer on December 13, 2020, 09:15:20 AM
So "he opposes Biden and Trump, therefore he opposes Biden, therefore he opposes minorities" is in the alt-Right playbook now.
(https://scontent.fhou1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/67452446_375990049749164_3836416044650463232_n.jpg?_nc_cat=106&ccb=2&_nc_sid=09cbfe&_nc_ohc=jfROQg1F_I8AX9EXH6S&_nc_ht=scontent.fhou1-1.fna&oh=cdecb0480f632c6192bb8d258f256ed8&oe=5FFD391F)
Quote from: Jason Harvestdancer on December 13, 2020, 09:15:20 AM
So now there's only two directions, and anyone who isn't in one of those two directions is center.
Did I say that? No. There you go making blind assumptions again.
Projecting oneself onto another, is an easy way to avoid being informed of what they actually think ;-)
The Great Reset = elite global socialist slavery, assisted by state-created crisis:
19th and early 20th century Progressives were ...
Charles Darwin = naturalist and early post-religionist (Origin of Species 1859)
Thomas Huxley = social Darwinist (anti-religious protagonist of Darwinism)
Francis Galton = social Darwinist and Eugenist (half cousin of Charles Darwin)
Julian Huxley = social Darwinist (grandson of Thomas)
Aldous Huxley = social Darwinist and propagandist thru science fiction (grandson of Thomas)
Margaret Sanger = social Darwinist and Eugenicist
H G Wells = protege of Thomas Huxley, social Darwinism and World Government propagandist thru science fiction
Halford Mackinder = social Darwinist and World Government advocate
Cecil Rhodes = racist and British World Government advocate
Alfred Milner = WW I advocate, Versailles leader and British World Government advocate
Bertrand Russell = social Darwinist, mathematician, pacifist philosopher and World Government advocate
Adolph Hitler = social Darwinist, Eugenicist and German World Government advocate
Leading to the aborted Banker's Dictatorship of 1933 (pre-empted by election of FDR and dictatorship of Hitler) which was to solve the Great Depression. The attempted assassination and planned coup against FDR was probably part of this. The Bank of International Settlements (BIS) was the immediate pre-WW II organizational innovation in 1930 (1930-32 to facilitate German reparations payments) and from 1939-45 was in complete cooperation with the Third Reich, adding to the Federal Reserve in the US created in 1913 to help finance the planned "war to end all wars". Banking conspiracy continues down thru Bretton-Woods (1944), the Petro-Dollar (1971), the Euro (1991).
Today we have Sir Henry Kissinger, George Soros, Klaus Schwab, Bill Gates, Lord Malloch-Brown as advocates of the social engineering and scientific priesthood (aka Plato's Republic). The plans of 1933 were set aside but were restarted in 1945 and continue to this day, with China added to the mix (Trilateralist conspiracy of David Rockefeller, Henry Kissinger and Jimmy Carter). Bill Clinton being a disciple of Cecil Rhodes. Zbigniew Brzezinski being a disciple of Henry Kissinger. Bill Gates is a disciple of his father, a Eugenicist. George Soros is a disciple of his father, a World Government advocate (Esperantist).
"The Great RESET Is NOT A Conspiracy Theory, It's A REAL Power Grab In This Crisis" ... every American should be turned into Comet Pizza topping ;-)
“You will own nothing and you will be happy.†... real statement by real communists ... real communism has never been tried, but it will be ... NOW!
Was chatting with my SO about the 'info wars' clown A. Jones. Helped Trump win 2016. I can't imagine how parents of dead Sandy Hook kids felt when he was calling it fake news. Said the slaughter was staged by actors. Free speech is a right that carries responsibilities and in my eyes certain Americans have lost that right.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSzCyz5O4nM
(https://cdn.cnn.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/171213180354-sandy-hook-victims-graphic-super-169.jpg)
When you consider that most of his audience would be the right/far right fringe you see why he says shit like that.
People like Jones are a barometer of our society. If those people are suppressed then how many people with valid questions about us would also be suppressed?
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on January 16, 2021, 06:42:01 PM
When you consider that most of his audience would be the right/far right fringe you see why he says shit like that.
People like Jones are a barometer of our society. If those people are suppressed then how many people with valid questions about us would also be suppressed?
He is a professional talking-head instigator and professionals usually have regulatory bodies. License all pro opinion pundits and hold them financially accountable for obvious gross damaging lies. Let them challenge in court.
Quote from: Cassia on January 16, 2021, 06:05:57 PM
Was chatting with my SO about the 'info wars' clown A. Jones. Helped Trump win 2016. I can't imagine how parents of dead Sandy Hook kids felt when he was calling it fake news. Said the slaughter was staged by actors. Free speech is a right that carries responsibilities and in my eyes certain Americans have lost that right.
I've heard his name before, and I new he was part of the lunatic fringe, but this was about the most disgusting thing I've heard on talk radio.
Quote from: Cassia on January 16, 2021, 07:36:37 PM
He is a professional talking-head instigator and professionals usually have regulatory bodies. License all pro opinion pundits and hold them financially accountable for obvious gross damaging lies. Let them challenge in court.
Licensing all pundits may be just the thing to force out any pundit who opposed Trump. Deny licenses to any who hold bad opinions.
Quote from: Jason Harvestdancer on January 16, 2021, 09:15:59 PM
Licensing all pundits may be just the thing to force out any pundit who opposed Trump. Deny licenses to any who hold bad opinions.
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-UpSCKI8xd2I/WjGk5ei7SVI/AAAAAAAAF7s/AueVg2Wxvdg2yds5e_dz803nNJcBJznrgCLcBGAs/s1600/Strawman.png)
Quote from: Cassia on January 16, 2021, 07:36:37 PM
He is a professional talking-head instigator and professionals usually have regulatory bodies. License all pro opinion pundits and hold them financially accountable for obvious gross damaging lies. Let them challenge in court.
He hides behind the 1st Amendment.
@Gawdzilla Sama , could you give me a few book names on American civil war?
For free books, archives.org (Search for "American Civil War.) Same for https://www.gutenberg.org/.
Shelby Foote is a major light in the field. Bruce Catton is another.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on January 18, 2021, 08:59:05 AM
For free books, archives.org (Search for "American Civil War.) Same for https://www.gutenberg.org/.
Shelby Foote is a major light in the field. Bruce Catton is another.
Thanks.
Unfortunately around here one would think the US civil war never ended. Stop off to grab dinner in a local BBQ place and you might walk in on a "Sons of Confederate Veterans" meeting. Google them and you can see there are hundreds of local chapters. They way some of them talk you would think they won the war and own slaves or something.
Quote from: Cassia on January 18, 2021, 10:19:38 AM
Unfortunately around here one would think the US civil war never ended. Stop off to grab dinner in a local BBQ place and you might walk in on a "Sons of Confederate Veterans" meeting. Google them and you can see there are hundreds of local chapters. They way some of them talk you would think they won the war and own slaves or something.
Hmmmmm........don't you mean The War of Yankee Aggression??? There was no Civil War.
Another wonderful point. The Alamo was, of course, filled to the brim with freedom fighters (who doesn't shed a tear for Davy Crockett and Col. Travis??). Except they were fighting for the freedom to own slaves. The white texans had signed a contract with the Mexican govt. prior to the texans getting free land. But if one is white and christian, contracts mean nothing.
Quote from: Cassia on January 18, 2021, 10:19:38 AM
Unfortunately around here one would think the US civil war never ended. Stop off to grab dinner in a local BBQ place and you might walk in on a "Sons of Confederate Veterans" meeting. Google them and you can see there are hundreds of local chapters. They way some of them talk you would think they won the war and own slaves or something.
You are scaring me, and at the same time make me want to visit south. The only experience I have is light with a group with cars, in Oregon in 2016.
Southerners generally come in two varieties - legit southern hospitality (friendly AF and will invite you to the pig pickin') and crazy xenophobes. Tourists come away with two very different impressions based on which of the two they interacted with.
South of the Mason-Nixon line we don't get a lot of rational. Even the nice folks are batshit.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on January 18, 2021, 08:39:13 PM
South of the Mason-Nixon line we don't get a lot of rational. Even the nice folks are batshit.
!!
Quote from: Mike Cl on January 18, 2021, 09:15:58 PM
!!
I'll never forget that St Patty's day parade in Savannah. A mostly black high school marching band from Atlanta was simply killing it, making the previous college band sound like they needed more lessons. At first... from the crowd behind me.. it was one guy mumbled something about apes, and then another, and then another. I turned around and saw several fine examples of inbreeding. Real "Squeal like a pig" types if you get my drift. I started uncontrolled laughing out loud after seeing them and hearing what they said. They didn't even figure out I was laughing AT them.
Quote from: Hydra009 on January 18, 2021, 04:36:43 PM
Southerners generally come in two varieties - legit southern hospitality (friendly AF and will invite you to the pig pickin') and crazy xenophobes. Tourists come away with two very different impressions based on which of the two they interacted with.
I've lived here in Texas my whole life, and I don't see the distinction.
Makes sense we have plenty of Southerners on an atheist forum. Don't feel so all alone, LOL.
Quote from: Cassia on January 18, 2021, 09:50:59 PM
I'll never forget that St Patty's day parade in Savannah. A mostly black high school marching band from Atlanta was simply killing it, making the previous college band sound like they needed more lessons. At first... from the crowd behind me.. it was one guy mumbled something about apes, and then another, and then another. I turned around and saw several fine examples of inbreeding. Real "Squeal like a pig" types if you get my drift. I started uncontrolled laughing out loud after seeing them and hearing what they said. They didn't even figure out I was laughing AT them.
In the mid 70's I drove from CA to Upper State NY. The trip took me thru a slice of West Virginia. Stopped at a gas station and a station wagon pulled up behind me at the pumps. While I was gassing up, the Deliverance style family came boiling out--all 70-11 of them (yeah, a bunch!), of the car. Wow! What a collection of slopped foreheads and droolers! I did a record filling up and paying. They looked like a cartoon come to life. No, not a funny cartoon, but a cartoon nonetheless.
Quote from: Cassia on January 18, 2021, 10:05:02 PM
Makes sense we have plenty of Southerners on an atheist forum. Don't feel so all alone, LOL.
It was definitely different when I was "growing up" (not to imply I'm not still young, but I mean as a teenager), but I think nowadays (at least in Central Texas) identifying as an atheist is not something that anyone is going to look at you twice for, and I don't really know the religion of any of my friends, coworkers or acquaintances, besides one or two who do wear and have tattoos of Catholic iconography.
When I was a teen that was definitely not the case. The only people who would dare to identify as atheist back then were the real weirdo kids that no one wanted to talk to, and parents would flip their shit over them wearing "anti-Christian" band shirts or jewelry. However I don't know how much of that social stigma was from them being self-professing atheists, how much of it was from them just being incredibly socially inept, and how much the two factors played off of each other.
I would point out that the Indiana had a very large KKK contingent. Some of the local klaverns were held in our garage.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on January 19, 2021, 05:45:09 AM
I would point out that the Indiana had a very large KKK contingent. Some of the local klaverns were held in our garage.
I spent some time working in Kansas. Holy crap. Made parts of GA seem like VT in contrast. Rebel flags flown from gun-racked pickups. That and that spine chilling tornado siren. I was chatting away, all friendly during my cafeteria lunches and most of my temporary coworkers mostly just silently looked at me while they chewed, LOL.
"Ya'll sound funny."
Quote from: Cassia on January 18, 2021, 10:05:02 PM
Makes sense we have plenty of Southerners on an atheist forum. Don't feel so all alone, LOL.
I was born and raised in the Deep South, but I got better.
I went to school in Alexandria, Indiana. I had two teachers named "Gaither", the third one taught Home Ec., the spirit crusher of female students in the '50s and '60s. If you're religious you might recognize the name. "The Bill Gaither Trio" still has a show on some of the religious channels in the US. They made good money in the 60s, in part because a celeb used them for backup singers. This got to be such a money maker that they built their own sound studio in a town with <7,000 people. The singer I mentioned would stay at Bill's little place, built on an entire city block of land, and so tastefully landscaped.
Oh, the singer's name? Elvis Presley.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on January 19, 2021, 04:35:04 PM
Oh, the singer's name? Elvis Presley.
As I recall (I don't know why), I remember Elvis having a backup group called the Jordanaires (Jordan airs). Are they the same as the gaither Trio?
He recorded with more than one backup group, of course. The Gaithers' setup gave him a way to avoid fanatic fans.
It's a pity nobody got footage of the Gaithers' swans chase Elvis around the grounds. That was epic.
Those larger domesticated birds can be aggressive. My ex and I were driving a country road, and decided to turn around and go back in the opposite direction. We pulled into someone's driveway, and I noticed that 10 to 15 of those big white geese were hanging around the front of the house. We pulled in just enough so we could back out, and this flock of geese came running down the road making frantic geese noises, and then started attacking the car, I guess they were trying to bite the car or something, because their beaks were slamming into both sides of sides of the car. After we got away from the house, I stopped to see if they had dented the car, but there were no dents. I'd never heard of such a thing before.
Geese are notoriously aggressive, often intimidating much larger and more fearsome animals and bluffing them into fleeing first. Geese are almost always willing to throw down when threatened, and are known to chase after adult humans despite the massive size difference. Your car was likely too close to the flock or a nest.
On foot, if you ever hear a Canada goose start hissing like a snake, it's time to back away.
The first time I was attacked by a swan was on a tour of Strafford-on-Avon, IIRC. We knew better than to mess with the "Gaither Nazgul".
In Europe it was common to keep geese as watchbirds, they strenuously objected to unannounced visitors in the night.