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News & General Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Cassia on October 26, 2020, 10:04:19 PM

Title: Twitter/Forum/Texting Interaction...
Post by: Cassia on October 26, 2020, 10:04:19 PM
...renders years of learning non-verbal physical cues completely useless. Not to mention the millions of years worth of development of this skill in our species. The raising of an eyebrow, the sideways glance, the clearing of the throat...are all missing. Video/audio half-duplex interaction also leaves a lot to be desired.

In the past it was all about "the way it was said". Much easier to pick up subtle similarities; to connect with compassion despite varying views. The world seems much more loveless.
Title: Re: Twitter/Forum/Texting Interaction...
Post by: Hydra009 on October 26, 2020, 11:11:43 PM
I was never very good at non-verbal cues and growing up, I desired nothing more than to be penpals with someone living in a foreign country.  Then the internet came along and my cup runneth over.

One of my favorite books features cyborgs who communicate with each other with compressed binary transmission bursts - saying pages worth in less than a second.  They communicate very precisely (no ambiguity) and convey a lot of information in a very short time.  I would genuinely love that. 

Intent/sarcasm can certainly be trickier over text, but it's something that can be figured out fairly quickly.  For example, half-duplex is a very interesting term used in very few fields, so there's some insight right there.  :)

And I would give my left liver to not be cut off while talking to someone and not accidentally cut them off.  I talk to my brother sometimes and it's like the first presidential debate.  I'll finish a little story only to find out that the person on the other end was just impatiently waiting for me to shut my gob and spent that time thinking about their own story.

I'm not so sure about loveless.  Less intimate seems more fitting.
Title: Re: Twitter/Forum/Texting Interaction...
Post by: Cassia on October 27, 2020, 08:04:29 AM
That is interesting Hydra. My experience has been a lot of navigating around so many smooth talkers. If someone said "nice haircut" there was a 50% chance it meant "silly haircut", dependent on if their smile was twisted or not. At a job interview I could tell if I was gonna get the offer, not by what they said but by how they acted. If I want to avoid unpleasantness; a text message is just so much easier than delivering bad news while looking someone in the eye. The receiver doesn't even get to watch you squirm a bit. And if you don't squirm, that is a useful piece of information right there.

In decades past I recall more civility in discourse. Fairly deep conversations with coworkers instead of that perpetual blank 1000-mile stare into an I-phone. Maybe memory fails but I don't recall so many immediate ad hominem attacks that make Twitter and forums so rough. My YT feed recently presented "USA for Africa" to me. I can not even imagine something like that now, but I am always hopeful. Maybe it was all a façade and we are closer to true human nature. I just don't know.
Title: Re: Twitter/Forum/Texting Interaction...
Post by: drunkenshoe on October 27, 2020, 09:46:22 AM
Quote from: Cassia on October 27, 2020, 08:04:29 AM
... that perpetual blank 1000-mile stare into an I-phone. ...

Lol.

Title: Re: Twitter/Forum/Texting Interaction...
Post by: GSOgymrat on October 27, 2020, 10:38:06 AM
Paraverbal communication and body language are more important than the words someone says. People communicate volumes with their proximity to you when they talk, stance, eye contact, how they use their hands, the tone, rate and volume of their voice, etc. Active listening is making an effort to not alone to hear the words being said but the complete message being communicated.

I like texts for brief communication but I don't like text conversations. The main reason is every text is like a new interruption. In between texts, my attention is on something else, so to me, a text stream is often like someone saying:

"This"

"And this too"

"Oh, one more thing"

"Oh, this too"

"I forgot to say this"

Title: Re: Twitter/Forum/Texting Interaction...
Post by: Baruch on October 27, 2020, 10:53:58 AM
Quote from: Cassia on October 27, 2020, 08:04:29 AM
That is interesting Hydra. My experience has been a lot of navigating around so many smooth talkers. If someone said "nice haircut" there was a 50% chance it meant "silly haircut", dependent on if their smile was twisted or not. At a job interview I could tell if I was gonna get the offer, not by what they said but by how they acted. If I want to avoid unpleasantness; a text message is just so much easier than delivering bad news while looking someone in the eye. The receiver doesn't even get to watch you squirm a bit. And if you don't squirm, that is a useful piece of information right there.

In decades past I recall more civility in discourse. Fairly deep conversations with coworkers instead of that perpetual blank 1000-mile stare into an I-phone. Maybe memory fails but I don't recall so many immediate ad hominem attacks that make Twitter and forums so rough. My YT feed recently presented "USA for Africa" to me. I can not even imagine something like that now, but I am always hopeful. Maybe it was all a façade and we are closer to true human nature. I just don't know.

Everyone is more autistic now, because we were born under industrial pollution, leaded gasoline pollution, and fluoridated water.
Title: Re: Twitter/Forum/Texting Interaction...
Post by: Baruch on October 27, 2020, 10:55:14 AM
Quote from: GSOgymrat on October 27, 2020, 10:38:06 AM
Paraverbal communication and body language are more important than the words someone says. People communicate volumes with their proximity to you when they talk, stance, eye contact, how they use their hands, the tone, rate and volume of their voice, etc. Active listening is making an effort to not alone to hear the words being said but the complete message being communicated.

I like texts for brief communication but I don't like text conversations. The main reason is every text is like a new interruption. In between texts, my attention is on something else, so to me, a text stream is often like someone saying:

"This"

"And this too"

"Oh, one more thing"

"Oh, this too"

"I forgot to say this"

Anglo - Paraverbal communication
Italian - hold my pasta
Title: Re: Twitter/Forum/Texting Interaction...
Post by: Hydra009 on October 27, 2020, 05:39:11 PM
Quote from: Cassia on October 27, 2020, 08:04:29 AMIn decades past I recall more civility in discourse.
Eh, I dunno about that.  It may just be that being online gives people the chance to voice their true feelings unconstrained by normal etiquette.

There's also kind of a polarizing love/hate warring factions dynamic whenever something new comes up - where people feel pushed to one of those two factions and then that initial opinion reinforced over and over again by like-minded people, which produces a more extreme divide than what otherwise would exist.

QuoteFairly deep conversations with coworkers instead of that perpetual blank 1000-mile stare into an I-phone.
Now that is a problem and it's less the technology itself and more a poor ability to integrate technology properly.

Smart phones are literally mini-computers you can also use as phones.  They're supposed to be a convenient all-in-one device to lookup information and stay in touch with people.  They're not supposed to be 24/7 distractions and especially not supposed to interfere with working and that's a failure in work-life-leisure balance.

Ideally, people are supposed to manage their own priorities and judge what they're doing to be more important than what's on their phone.  Obviously, things haven't exactly worked out that way.  Eventually, I think rulemakers and social pressure will discourage those sorts of bad habits, especially when people get hurt as a result.

QuoteMaybe memory fails but I don't recall so many immediate ad hominem attacks that make Twitter and forums so rough.
I do.  It was a goddamn nightmare.  The internet has been a mixed blessing in letting people call out BS and letting people propagate BS.  I'm not entirely sure if it has been a net positive or negative, but I'm inclined towards a neutral or slight positive.

QuoteMy YT feed recently presented "USA for Africa" to me. I can not even imagine something like that now, but I am always hopeful.
There was that ALS challenge and the tree-planting campaign, just of the top of my head.
Title: Re: Twitter/Forum/Texting Interaction...
Post by: Hydra009 on October 27, 2020, 06:02:42 PM
Quote from: GSOgymrat on October 27, 2020, 10:38:06 AMParaverbal communication and body language are more important than the words someone says. People communicate volumes with their proximity to you when they talk, stance, eye contact, how they use their hands, the tone, rate and volume of their voice, etc.
*nervous sweating*

When I smiled to the checkout lady, was it a normal smile or a murderer smile?  Man, my hands are extra sweaty today.  Stupid sweaty hands.  When I was pointing to the street while giving directions, did that guy down the hall think I was pointing at him?  Cause he looked pissed, hopefully not at me.  I'm too loud, I should let someone else speak.  Damn, now it's too quiet, I should break the ice.  Did my voice just crack?  I never know what to do with my hands while talking.  I should put them in my pockets.  Whoops, no pockets on this hoodie.  I'll pretend I was just rubbing my stomach.  Alright, time to say goodbye.  Oh, he's still talking.  Do I just...walk away?  That'd be rude, wouldn't it?  But isn't it also rude to keep someone verbally hostage?  Yeah, I already know all that, just wrap it up.  I'm going to try a second goodbye.  Or maybe push someone into talking to him while I make a break for it.

*makes it home, triple-locks and bars the door behind me*

Internet time: time to type up something obvious and people will think I'm a genius for saying it.  Maybe I can deploy some obscure trivia or hashtag relatable joke to really bump up the karma.  I think I'll go with that other guy's joke I saved up for the past three months.
Title: Re: Twitter/Forum/Texting Interaction...
Post by: Cassia on October 27, 2020, 06:19:14 PM
When I smiled to the checkout lady, was it a normal smile or a murderer smile?

Murderous, LOL. Context is important. I don't waste much energy on casual non verbal cues. However if the interaction matters to me then I pay attention. Especially valuable for relationships. Once I get to know your normal cues over time I have a basis set of behaviors to compare against. Tell me a lie and I will know in about 3 minutes. Cheat on me and you are a dead man.
Title: Re: Twitter/Forum/Texting Interaction...
Post by: Baruch on October 27, 2020, 06:19:46 PM
Your avatar looks suspicious, beady eyes, sloping forehead ...
Title: Re: Twitter/Forum/Texting Interaction...
Post by: Cassia on October 27, 2020, 06:51:42 PM
Of course reading non verbal cues is not infallible like the Pope.

Can't remember the source but I recall a retired football player who said he could tell if certain quarterbacks were about to throw a pass or hand-off the ball just by watching pre-play cues. My old boss was so easy to read. He would fiddle with his glasses (kept needlessly pushing them up by the bridge) when he was upset. I guess there are some people who truly have a 'poker face'. I might be a bit wary of them. I think it is an interesting topic. I bet there is a TED talk...., LOL
Title: Re: Twitter/Forum/Texting Interaction...
Post by: Hydra009 on October 27, 2020, 07:00:13 PM
Quote from: Cassia on October 27, 2020, 06:19:14 PMOnce I get to know your normal cues over time I have a basis set of behaviors to compare against. Tell me a lie and I will know in about 3 minutes. Cheat on me and you are a dead man.
LOL same.  I legit don't understand why people cheat.  Either stay or go.  You can't do both.

If rings weren't already invented, I would invent some sort of "love baton" (willing to workshop the name) for people to give their SO and then take it back when they breakup.  That way, there's no ambiguity and everyone knows where they stand with each other.
Title: Re: Twitter/Forum/Texting Interaction...
Post by: Baruch on October 27, 2020, 07:00:31 PM
Quote from: Cassia on October 27, 2020, 06:51:42 PM
Of course reading non verbal cues is not infallible like the Pope.

Can't remember the source but I recall a retired football player who said he could tell if certain quarterbacks were about to throw a pass or hand-off the ball just by watching pre-play cues. My old boss was so easy to read. He would fiddle with his glasses (kept needlessly pushing them up by the bridge) when he was upset. I guess there are some people who truly have a 'poker face'. I might be a bit wary of them. I think it is an interesting topic. I bet there is a TED talk...., LOL

I wouldn't trust the body language of an actor, or a sociopath, or am I repeating myself?
Title: Re: Twitter/Forum/Texting Interaction...
Post by: Mike Cl on October 27, 2020, 07:10:40 PM
Quote from: Cassia on October 27, 2020, 06:51:42 PM
Of course reading non verbal cues is not infallible like the Pope.

Can't remember the source but I recall a retired football player who said he could tell if certain quarterbacks were about to throw a pass or hand-off the ball just by watching pre-play cues. My old boss was so easy to read. He would fiddle with his glasses (kept needlessly pushing them up by the bridge) when he was upset. I guess there are some people who truly have a 'poker face'. I might be a bit wary of them. I think it is an interesting topic. I bet there is a TED talk...., LOL
Have you heard of Neuro-Linguistic Programing (NLP)?  It was big in the 70's.  I was in the Army active reserve in the late 70's and we spent 6 full days (3 weekends) studying NLP.  Apparently, at that time the Army used these techniques to train their competitive 45 cal. pistol team.  The part that pertained to my unit was the 'reading' of body language and eye movements when questioning a person.  (I was in a Counter Intelligence unit; we were not integrators officially, but we did run several types of investigations.)  Anyway, the Army was so impressed with it that they spent 6 full days teaching it to us.  I have since forgot most of it and have long since thrown away all the handouts that we were given.  I do remember that if we asked someone a question and their eyes looked up and to the left, they were accessing their memories; if they looked down and to the left, they were using their imagination (lying).    I don't know if the Army still thinks it a good tool to use or not.  Here is an article dealing with the subject:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuro-linguistic_programming   
Title: Re: Twitter/Forum/Texting Interaction...
Post by: Mr.Obvious on October 28, 2020, 02:32:57 PM
Quote from: Hydra009 on October 27, 2020, 07:00:13 PM
LOL same.  I legit don't understand why people cheat.  Either stay or go.  You can't do both.

I don't even understand how people cheat. At least 'longterm'. Not like a drunken mistake or something. How do you manage an affair on an emotional level? Knowing that you are hurting your partner(S) for such selfish reasons? How much can you compartimentalize, because if you can't doesn't it shred your spyché? Doesn't it completely drain your self-worth to the point That you can' t look your cowardice self in the mirror  anymore? Doesn't the guilt and loathing strip you entirely of you?

And aside of al that? Where do you get the fucking time anyways? How the fuck do you fit that in? Things have to be going bad already if you are spending so little time with your spouse that you can add a second partner.
Title: Re: Twitter/Forum/Texting Interaction...
Post by: bob nelson on October 28, 2020, 07:27:20 PM
 It's all just one giant echo chamber.
Title: Re: Twitter/Forum/Texting Interaction...
Post by: Baruch on October 28, 2020, 09:58:13 PM
Quote from: bob nelson on October 28, 2020, 07:27:20 PM
It's all just one giant echo chamber.

Self selected echo chambers, but like equality, some echo chambers are more echo-y than others ;-)
Title: Re: Twitter/Forum/Texting Interaction...
Post by: Cassia on October 29, 2020, 07:41:45 AM
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on October 28, 2020, 02:32:57 PM
I don't even understand how people cheat. At least 'longterm'. Not like a drunken mistake or something. How do you manage an affair on an emotional level? Knowing that you are hurting your partner(S) for such selfish reasons? How much can you compartimentalize, because if you can't doesn't it shred your spyché? Doesn't it completely drain your self-worth to the point That you can' t look your cowardice self in the mirror  anymore? Doesn't the guilt and loathing strip you entirely of you?

And aside of al that? Where do you get the fucking time anyways? How the fuck do you fit that in? Things have to be going bad already if you are spending so little time with your spouse that you can add a second partner.

Yeah, there will be no second chances. I don't knock people who give them, I just can't understand how they do it. In fact, the whole idea of 'forgiveness' is so wrapped up in religion and the concept of sin. I don't forgive or forget. I just move to a new situation where I regain my happiness. I don't give a fuck if a liar needs forgiveness, not my problem.
Title: Re: Twitter/Forum/Texting Interaction...
Post by: SGOS on October 29, 2020, 07:51:29 AM
Quote from: Mike Cl on October 27, 2020, 07:10:40 PM
Have you heard of Neuro-Linguistic Programing (NLP)?  It was big in the 70's.  I was in the Army active reserve in the late 70's and we spent 6 full days (3 weekends) studying NLP.  Apparently, at that time the Army used these techniques to train their competitive 45 cal. pistol team.  The part that pertained to my unit was the 'reading' of body language and eye movements when questioning a person.  (I was in a Counter Intelligence unit; we were not integrators officially, but we did run several types of investigations.)  Anyway, the Army was so impressed with it that they spent 6 full days teaching it to us.  I have since forgot most of it and have long since thrown away all the handouts that we were given.  I do remember that if we asked someone a question and their eyes looked up and to the left, they were accessing their memories; if they looked down and to the left, they were using their imagination (lying).    I don't know if the Army still thinks it a good tool to use or not.  Here is an article dealing with the subject:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuro-linguistic_programming   
But now that you spilled the beans and let out all the secrets, scam artists will be looking up and to the left, to make you think they are thinking, and never looking down and to the left when they are lying, which leaves you back where you were when you started.  But I still think there are non verbal ques that are unscripted that we pick up on.  How they affect the relationship is probably important, but probably no more predictable of the actual value of the relationship itself.  Codependents still find their partners, and con artists still find their marks, and it's a combination of a lot of faulty sensory experiences.  I have picked up a lot of ques in my life, which often proved to be embarrassingly inaccurate.  Or did I pick up the cues just fine, but fumble in my responses.  Who knows?  Communication is a mess.  Maybe in a perfect world we would all be high functioning autistics who said only what they meant, and understood only what was said.
Title: Re: Twitter/Forum/Texting Interaction...
Post by: Mike Cl on October 29, 2020, 09:55:00 AM
Quote from: SGOS on October 29, 2020, 07:51:29 AM
But now that you spilled the beans and let out all the secrets, scam artists will be looking up and to the left, to make you think they are thinking, and never looking down and to the left when they are lying, which leaves you back where you were when you started.  But I still think there are non verbal ques that are unscripted that we pick up on.  How they affect the relationship is probably important, but probably no more predictable of the actual value of the relationship itself.  Codependents still find their partners, and con artists still find their marks, and it's a combination of a lot of faulty sensory experiences.  I have picked up a lot of ques in my life, which often proved to be embarrassingly inaccurate.  Or did I pick up the cues just fine, but fumble in my responses.  Who knows?  Communication is a mess.  Maybe in a perfect world we would all be high functioning autistics who said only what they meant, and understood only what was said.
It was more complicated than just that.  It was learning how to read body language--how you sit, how stand, how you say what you say--and on and on.  And it is surprisingly difficult to change your own nonverbal cues even when trying.  I enjoy learning that kind of stuff so I had an enjoyable 6 days.  And I remember hoping this info would help with my teaching.  But I'm not sure it had much of a lasting impact and I don't know if the Army still uses it.  One part of the training that I think is legit was the imaging part of it.  An experiment was used as an illustration was this one:  Three groups; all basketball players.  One group did nothing, one group physically practiced shooting and the last group saw themselves take the proper stances for a successful shoot in their minds.  I think this was of a 2 week period.  Anyway,  on retest of each groups shooting abilities, the group that physically practiced and the group that saw themselves shooting scored the same.  The group that did nothing finished last.  They used these types of techniques for the Army .45 pistol team.  As I've said, I don't really know if the Army still does any of this stuff.  And as I remember it, NLP training also swept thru the countries police forces.
Title: Re: Twitter/Forum/Texting Interaction...
Post by: Baruch on October 29, 2020, 11:01:11 AM
Quote from: Cassia on October 29, 2020, 07:41:45 AM
Yeah, there will be no second chances. I don't knock people who give them, I just can't understand how they do it. In fact, the whole idea of 'forgiveness' is so wrapped up in religion and the concept of sin. I don't forgive or forget. I just move to a new situation where I regain my happiness. I don't give a fuck if a liar needs forgiveness, not my problem.

How I feel about all politicians ;-(

On cues ... the idea now is to use autonomic pupil dilation, measured automatically, when viewing porn, to measure response, for example of pedophiles.  They should do this with politicians, by showing them pictures of money ;-)