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Extraordinary Claims => Religion General Discussion => Christianity => Topic started by: Jagella on October 03, 2020, 05:59:43 PM

Title: Christianity and Hatred for People
Post by: Jagella on October 03, 2020, 05:59:43 PM
Is there a relationship between Christianity and hatred for people? I've read that early on the critics of Christianity accused it of being hatred for humanity. Most apologists would strongly deny such a charge. They tell us that Christ taught love and that all those who would hate in his name are acting against his teachings. To begin to resolve this disagreement, let's take a look at what two Christians from another forum have to say.

Quote from: 1213By what the Bible tells, God has decided to give eternal life for righteous and others will die.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but therighteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift ofGod is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

I think that is good, because if unrighteous people would live forever, they would turn the eternal life into eternal suffering for all, which I think would not be nice.

I don’t think death is evil.

Quote from: EarthScienceguyI am sure that those that look at these societies that God destroyed and know they are doing the things that God destroyed these societies do look at these acts in fear, and dread. If they do not look at these societies that God destroyed with fear and dread then the next best thing is blame and denial...

...God knows the future. God knew the eternal destiny of all of those that He put to death before He sentenced them to eternal separation from His goodness. That is what dying without belief in Jesus or in this case God is eternal separation from the goodness of God.

When I read comments like these I tend to feel threatened and degraded. Am I such a worthless wretch that my life can be snuffed out any time at the Christian God's whim, and Christians would just shrug their shoulders saying I got what I deserved? Can my entire community be destroyed if some "guy in the sky" judges it to be disobedient to him?

In any event, I sure don't feel loved.
Title: Re: Christianity and Hatred for People
Post by: Baruch on October 03, 2020, 06:07:20 PM
Ideas, and social sciences lead to competition, which includes fear, hatred and violence.  If Christians are human, then they are violent, same as other groups.  But it is hardly unique.  Even atheists are human, and therefore potentially violent.
Title: Re: Christianity and Hatred for People
Post by: Jagella on October 03, 2020, 07:03:41 PM
Quote from: Baruch on October 03, 2020, 06:07:20 PM
Ideas, and social sciences lead to competition, which includes fear, hatred and violence.  If Christians are human, then they are violent, same as other groups.  But it is hardly unique.  Even atheists are human, and therefore potentially violent.

Do atheists all think that all those who disagree with them deserve to be punished? As an atheist I'm free to make my own judgments about people and what should be done to them. I decide when to become violent. I've come to the conclusion that there are no evil groups that must be killed. What Christian can honestly say that?
Title: Re: Christianity and Hatred for People
Post by: Baruch on October 03, 2020, 07:11:21 PM
Quote from: Jagella on October 03, 2020, 07:03:41 PM
Do atheists all think that all those who disagree with them deserve to be punished? As an atheist I'm free to make my own judgments about people and what should be done to them. I decide when to become violent. I've come to the conclusion that there are no evil groups that must be killed. What Christian can honestly say that?

You are speaking of theology.  If you want nice theology, then you need Gandhi and MLK, not atheists.  Yes, it is better if you don't demonize others.  That leads to crazy behavior (including Spanish Inquisition).  And of course, be an individual (unless you are in the Army).
Title: Re: Christianity and Hatred for People
Post by: Unbeliever on October 03, 2020, 07:38:55 PM
According to Psalm 139:7-8, we can't ever be separated from God, since he is everywhere, even in hell.

I wouldn't paint all Christians as haters, but the potential is certainly there to justify hate with biblical scripture. And Jesus said, in the NT, that in order to be his disciple we must hate our whole family. That's not exactly preaching love...
Title: Re: Christianity and Hatred for People
Post by: Jagella on October 03, 2020, 09:36:55 PM
Quote from: Unbeliever on October 03, 2020, 07:38:55 PM
According to Psalm 139:7-8, we can't ever be separated from God, since he is everywhere, even in hell.

I've thought of God being everywhere. If he is everywhere, then he's in the sky. Christians have told me that when I say so, I'm "straw-manning" their beliefs. They're way too sophisticated to believe in such a silly God. I just wish they were sophisticated enough to know what their Bible says about their God.

QuoteI wouldn't paint all Christians as haters...

Only the ones who know their Bible and take it seriously.

Quote...but the potential is certainly there to justify hate with biblical scripture.

It's not hard to do.

QuoteAnd Jesus said, in the NT, that in order to be his disciple we must hate our whole family. That's not exactly preaching love...

Yes, and I need to reiterate that so much of Christian dogma sure doesn't make me feel loved. I'm a good person, but as long as I don't believe what they say, then I'm a hell-bound sinner.
Title: Re: Christianity and Hatred for People
Post by: Hydra009 on October 03, 2020, 10:24:10 PM
Christian dogma, like the Manichaeism that preceded it (and undoubtedly influenced it) divides the world into light and dark, good and evil, righteous and wicked.  As such, there is inherent antipathy - if not hostility - towards the latter.

Christian apologists generally take one of two approaches:
1) some people are bad and deserve what they get (presumably, their nobel peace prize is in the mail)
2) God loves everyone, so bad people can be somehow rehabilitated (a presumptuous and somewhat condescending approach since the implication is that the orthodox have it all right and everyone else needs to follow their lead.  It also requires a lot of "metaphorical" interpretations of scripture)
Title: Re: Christianity and Hatred for People
Post by: Baruch on October 03, 2020, 11:34:12 PM
The gods are a lot like you and I, only worse ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lr2Qt-Hz9G8&feature=emb_logo

Only seeing Christianity in your rear view mirror, is tunnel vision ...
Title: Re: Christianity and Hatred for People
Post by: Blackleaf on October 04, 2020, 12:53:48 AM
The whole idea of the Gospel depends on one assumption: that you deserve to rot in Hell, simply for existing. You are born broken, and only God can fix us. So yes, I would say it is fair to say that Christianity has a direct correlation to hatred for humanity. And that's not even getting into all the groups they hate, on the mere basis of their religious beliefs. Gay people, trans people, people of any other faith than theirs, atheists. They hate all those groups because their existence is a threat to their belief system.

Of course, Christians will try to tell you that their religion is about love. Just like they'll say that living by their standards is "freedom." Or that choosing who goes to Heaven or Hell for all of eternity based solely on belief in the right god is "justice." They have a habit of redefining words to mean the very opposite of what they're supposed to mean.
Title: Re: Christianity and Hatred for People
Post by: Baruch on October 04, 2020, 02:57:44 AM
Quote from: Blackleaf on October 04, 2020, 12:53:48 AM
The whole idea of the Gospel depends on one assumption: that you deserve to rot in Hell, simply for existing. You are born broken, and only God can fix us. So yes, I would say it is fair to say that Christianity has a direct correlation to hatred for humanity. And that's not even getting into all the groups they hate, on the mere basis of their religious beliefs. Gay people, trans people, people of any other faith than theirs, atheists. They hate all those groups because their existence is a threat to their belief system.

Of course, Christians will try to tell you that their religion is about love. Just like they'll say that living by their standards is "freedom." Or that choosing who goes to Heaven or Hell for all of eternity based solely on belief in the right god is "justice." They have a habit of redefining words to mean the very opposite of what they're supposed to mean.

I have disgusted Cavebear & Unbeliever precisely by supporting the notion (and my conscience hurts about hurting them) that everyone deserves to die and burn in Hell forever … redemption being wrong).  Your feels are not an argument against that POV.  See 3-Hour Discussion On Metaphysics on Youtube for contrast.  This is why I politically (rhetoric) support Stalin (harder to attack than strawman Hitler) … as Devil's Advocate.

Politically, if you have an enemies list it is justified to murder as an expediency, politics then being revealed as gang warfare.  If I happened to put atheists or gays on that list (I do not) then … but my reason is strictly arbitrary and personal.  Anyone here who is fearful of Christians, as The New Atheists were of Muslims, is justified in their self righteousness to commit murder.

It is that Puritanism manifested as SJW communism, that does put said culture war on my enemies list!
-----

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spandrel_(biology)

where reductionism fails to fully explain … this is called a side effect in programming and in some cases is the purpose of a particular instruction,  The spandrel of consciousness, culture, morality etc is what humanism is all about.
Title: Re: Christianity and Hatred for People
Post by: aitm on October 04, 2020, 08:09:42 AM
Quote from: Jagella on October 03, 2020, 07:03:41 PM. I've come to the conclusion that there are no evil groups that must be killed.

I’ve long reached the opposite conclusion.
Title: Re: Christianity and Hatred for People
Post by: Baruch on October 04, 2020, 08:56:24 AM
Quote from: aitm on October 04, 2020, 08:09:42 AM
I’ve long reached the opposite conclusion.

Which rhetorically makes you baby Hitler =  Reductio Ad Hitlerum
Title: Re: Christianity and Hatred for People
Post by: Jagella on October 04, 2020, 09:24:28 AM
Quote from: Hydra009 on October 03, 2020, 10:24:10 PM
Christian dogma, like the Manichaeism that preceded it (and undoubtedly influenced it) divides the world into light and dark, good and evil, righteous and wicked.  As such, there is inherent antipathy - if not hostility - towards the latter.

Yes--that's exactly right, but I've noticed that when Christians are forced to recognize this dogma of theirs, the denials start coming out. "Oh--but that's not what we believe. That's a straw man!"

Quote...some people are bad and deserve what they get...

Actually, they see everybody as bad or at least born bad. Those who believe them, however, are "imparted righteousness." Any person who rejects this righteousness does so by freely choosing to be punished in hell. Their punishment is then their own fault.

I am NOT making this up.

QuoteGod loves everyone, so bad people can be somehow rehabilitated (a presumptuous and somewhat condescending approach since the implication is that the orthodox have it all right and everyone else needs to follow their lead.  It also requires a lot of "metaphorical" interpretations of scripture)

It's one thing to be "holier than thou," but to simply assert it is rather presumptuous. If we judge people based on our dogmas rather than based on what character those people actually have, then we will probably end up judging good people to be bad people. In fact, thanks to Christianity, it happens all the time.
Title: Re: Christianity and Hatred for People
Post by: Baruch on October 04, 2020, 10:24:00 AM
Presumption?  Jewish theology is … G-d has arbitrarily chosen us for a unique role, now we have to earn it.  Gentile theology .. in that case we will kill you!  This is pre-Jesus.  Jesus' theology is … G-d arbitrarily choses those who do his will, ancestry doesn't matter.  Both rabbinical and Jesus' theology, life is eternal, even if you make mistakes, you will be redeemed/justified after the fact (jury nullification) if you act in G-d's true spirit.  Egyptian theology is … we have been saying that for 3000 years already … G-d's true spirit means knowing right from wrong, doing what is right and avoiding what is wrong .. in the name of Osiris/Isis.  Non-Egyptians say … eew, Osiris is a zombie, his sister/wife is incest, and she did necrophilia to Osiris' corpse and birthed a posthumous son, Horus.  Apostles' theology is … ok ok .. let the one G-d magically do the deed with a poor woman descended from King David, her son to be the Judean Horus.  Pauline theology is … redeemed not only can be Jewish, but it  is open to any Gentile open to acting in G-d's true spirit, without conversion to Judaism (avoiding circumcision).  Muslim theology is … Arabs are the chosen people etc
Title: Re: Christianity and Hatred for People
Post by: Mike Cl on October 04, 2020, 11:01:48 AM
Jag, if you want an honest answer to what the bible(s) say, then study its history.  You will find that what is called the bible (and there are many, many of them that claim this is the 'one' bible) has been cobbled together from a huge number of sources.  For example, there at least 85 named gospels that did not make it into the current set of writings called 'the bible'.  Most of the 85 no longer exist (that we are aware of) for whoever crafted their version of 'the bible' destroyed the rest of the material.  So, there is no definitive 'bible'.  Go to any christian book store and you can easily see many, many versions of 'the bible'.  Each version reflects the view of whoever published it.  Further, each minister/leader of any christian stripe (and there are literally thousands of them)  teaches using whatever verses that reflect what they want the followers to believe.  Jag, it is about mind control.  So, yes, hatred and fear are hallmarks of all religious leaders.  Love is often used as a cover, but the bottom line is always fear and hate. 

And that is what trump tapped into--he saw that christians are controlled by hate and fear, so he used it and allowed them to fully express that hate and fear openly.  Trump is now a cult figure because he gave the christians permission to hate all they want to.

Using the 'bible' (whichever one you are using) to provide proof for any argument you may put forward proves nothing--except you have been captured by the propoganda.
Title: Re: Christianity and Hatred for People
Post by: Jagella on October 04, 2020, 12:08:07 PM
Quote from: Blackleaf on October 04, 2020, 12:53:48 AM
The whole idea of the Gospel depends on one assumption: that you deserve to rot in Hell, simply for existing. You are born broken, and only God can fix us. So yes, I would say it is fair to say that Christianity has a direct correlation to hatred for humanity. And that's not even getting into all the groups they hate, on the mere basis of their religious beliefs. Gay people, trans people, people of any other faith than theirs, atheists. They hate all those groups because their existence is a threat to their belief system.

One hated group that doesn't get much attention is the disabled. Christians will often prey on them to bilk them out of their money promising healing that never comes. When it's obvious that the healing won't happen, faith healers may blame their victims for lacking faith. I've implored Christians to stop their faith-healing nonsense, but their comforting myths are more important to them than treating people with dignity.

QuoteOf course, Christians will try to tell you that their religion is about love. Just like they'll say that living by their standards is "freedom." Or that choosing who goes to Heaven or Hell for all of eternity based solely on belief in the right god is "justice." They have a habit of redefining words to mean the very opposite of what they're supposed to mean.

I think that George Orwell's idea was too late: Christians invented double-speak long before 1984. A good example of this "word trading" is the way many Christians interpret the Bible. If a passage is factually or morally wrong as is, then they'll get busy switching out words to smooth things over.
Title: Re: Christianity and Hatred for People
Post by: Baruch on October 04, 2020, 12:11:35 PM
Hitler simply murdered the severely retarded or insane in the asylums.  Straight forward that.  Sorry, the clan story teller invented tall tales before the Neolithic happened.  Christians didn't invent story telling.  Muslims claim that Jews and Christians are just storytellers, but their story is the one true story ;-)  Most Christians BTW don't practice faith healing.  Most atheists don't eat Comet Pizza.

@Mike CL ... if Trump is the anti-Christ, then you are still on the wrong side ;-)
Title: Re: Christianity and Hatred for People
Post by: Blackleaf on October 04, 2020, 01:12:40 PM
Quote from: Jagella on October 04, 2020, 12:08:07 PMI think that George Orwell's idea was too late: Christians invented double-speak long before 1984. A good example of this "word trading" is the way many Christians interpret the Bible. If a passage is factually or morally wrong as is, then they'll get busy switching out words to smooth things over.

Like when that part where Jesus says it is "impossible for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." And that it would be easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle. Apologists will say, "Actually, there was a door to the city that was called the Eye of the Needle. And people would have to unload their bags before letting their camels crawl through."

First, there is no evidence this notorious door ever existed. It was likely just made up so churches could avoid offending their wealthy donors. Second, why the hell would anyone make a passage to a bustling city so uselessly tiny? It makes no sense. And third, Jesus didn't say that it was difficult for a rich man to get to Heaven; he said it was impossible.

"But it's impossible for anyone to get to Heaven, without Jesus." Then why'd Jesus bother to call out the rich specifically? Give me a break. Clearly, Christianity started as a religion for the poor, but they sold out and began appealing to the rich, because the rich could give them power.
Title: Re: Christianity and Hatred for People
Post by: Baruch on October 04, 2020, 01:22:27 PM
Jesus wasn't Christian, wasn't American, not a Republican or Democrat.  So depending on your party, Jesus wasn't virtuous ;-)
Title: Re: Christianity and Hatred for People
Post by: Blackleaf on October 04, 2020, 08:52:06 PM
The idea of faith based salvation doesn't even jive with Jesus. That same rich man asked what he had to do to enter Heaven, and Jesus told him to follow the laws of the prophets. Then when the rich man said he was doing that, Jesus told him to donate all of his possessions and follow him. That sounds like works based salvation to me. Even the idea of the Old Testament laws being exchanged for new ones which were easier for Gentiles to follow completely contradicts what Jesus said. He said that not one letter of the law would be changed. Then again, this is the same guy who broke several of the Old Testament laws, criticizing Pharisees for taking them too literally. How does anyone read this mess of a book and think it's God's Word?
Title: Re: Christianity and Hatred for People
Post by: Unbeliever on October 04, 2020, 08:55:23 PM
I don't think they actually read the thing.
Title: Re: Christianity and Hatred for People
Post by: Baruch on October 05, 2020, 08:09:58 AM
Quote from: Blackleaf on October 04, 2020, 08:52:06 PM
The idea of faith based salvation doesn't even jive with Jesus. That same rich man asked what he had to do to enter Heaven, and Jesus told him to follow the laws of the prophets. Then when the rich man said he was doing that, Jesus told him to donate all of his possessions and follow him. That sounds like works based salvation to me. Even the idea of the Old Testament laws being exchanged for new ones which were easier for Gentiles to follow completely contradicts what Jesus said. He said that not one letter of the law would be changed. Then again, this is the same guy who broke several of the Old Testament laws, criticizing Pharisees for taking them too literally. How does anyone read this mess of a book and think it's God's Word?

If G-d was perfect, people wouldn't have been created (or their writings).  People exist, therefore G-d doesn't exist.  This is the "I am G-d" POV.  Egotism gone mad.  "I am a demi-god" is much more modest, given that demi-gods like Heracles were rather imperfect.