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Arts and Entertainment => Film, Music, Sports, and more => Topic started by: AFactNeedingPerson on September 17, 2020, 01:53:17 AM

Title: Books to read suggestions? oO
Post by: AFactNeedingPerson on September 17, 2020, 01:53:17 AM
I've picked up and read:

Atheism: The  case Against God (An awfully dry and philosophical approach, had to push through it)
Atheism: What Everyone Needs to Know (Upbeat and friendly read, but utterly on the fence writing style)

I am currently reading:
The God Delirium by Dawkins (I enjoy his writing style, Flying Spaghetti Monsters!)

Anyone else have suggestions.  There are always internet reviews and searches, but if you have a personal preference, im open ears.
Title: Re: Books to read suggestions? oO
Post by: Baruch on September 17, 2020, 02:02:57 AM
Chapter 10 of Plato's Republic on the "Myth of Er" .. the political use of religion

“The various modes of worship which prevailed in the Roman world were all considered by the people as equally true; by the philosopher as equally false; and by the magistrate as equally useful.” … Edward Gibbon

"Anaxagoras was the first known atheist. He was an Ionian Greek, born in Clazomenae in what is now Asia Minor. He travelled to other Greek cities, and his ideas were well known in Athens. Socrates mentioned that his works could be bought in Athens for a drachma." … aka 2 days pay in 430 BCE.  Of course other early philosophers brought up criticism of popular religion, starting with the big 4, Thales, Pythagoras, Xenophanes and Heraclitus.  They are at least irreligious, as was Socrates.

Sam Harris is not a "New Atheist" … but a New Buddhist.  And Buddhism is theistic (yes, technically there are minority Buddhists and Hindus who are atheists, but not in the way anti-Abrahamic people are).
Title: Re: Books to read suggestions? oO
Post by: drunkenshoe on September 17, 2020, 02:47:53 AM
Just curious, why do you want to read books on atheism?
Title: Re: Books to read suggestions? oO
Post by: AFactNeedingPerson on September 17, 2020, 05:07:20 AM
Just curious, why do you want to read books on atheism?

Books are the best source for material in understanding something (besides life experience).  Is reading now bad or something?  lol
Title: Re: Books to read suggestions? oO
Post by: GSOgymrat on September 17, 2020, 06:23:43 AM
Here are a few books that I enjoyed:

The Moral Arc: How Science and Reason Lead Humanity toward Truth, Justice, and Freedom by Michael Shermer - In this provocative and compelling book, Shermer will explain how abstract reasoning, rationality, empiricism, skepticism—scientific ways of thinking—have profoundly changed the way we perceive morality and, indeed, move us ever closer to a more just world.

Everybody Is Wrong About God by James A. Lindsay - A call to action to address people’s psychological and social motives for a belief in God, rather than debate the existence of God.

Letter to a Christian Nation by Sam Harris - In response to The End of Faith, Sam Harris received thousands of letters from Christians excoriating him for not believing in God. Letter to A Christian Nation is his reply. Using rational argument, Harris offers a measured refutation of the beliefs that form the core of fundamentalist Christianity. In the course of his argument, he addresses current topics ranging from intelligent design and stem-cell research to the connections between religion and violence.

The Bonobo and the Atheist: In Search of Humanism Among the Primates by Frans de Waal - In this lively and illuminating discussion of his landmark research, esteemed primatologist Frans de Waal argues that human morality is not imposed from above but instead comes from within. Moral behavior does not begin and end with religion but is in fact a product of evolution.
Title: Re: Books to read suggestions? oO
Post by: Cassia on September 17, 2020, 07:06:22 AM
Nice anthological overview....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Portable_Atheist
Title: Re: Books to read suggestions? oO
Post by: Cassia on September 17, 2020, 07:48:46 AM
I do consider myself agnostic (as correctly used in terms of knowledge) in that it is not possible for anyone to prove that some 'god' can not exist; however I am an atheist in that I do not believe that any god as described/worshipped in past or present religions exists. To learn about religion, forget the holy books and study the human brain.
Title: Re: Books to read suggestions? oO
Post by: Mike Cl on September 17, 2020, 09:22:05 AM
On the Historicity of Jesus: Why We Might Have Reason for Doubt
by Richard C. Carrier.

I did a good amount of study of the texts used in some major seminary schools about Jesus and the Bible.  Wanted to get the good word straight from the horse's mouth, so to speak.  And I read several books from the opposite end;  Robert M. Price (ex Baptist minister with many books), Wells and Doherty--all with well researched ideas and books.  Carrier has many books, as well, but the one listed is an excellent source with tons of footnotes and references.  It is a big book, but easy to read a bit at a time. 

As a side note, I was basically an agnostic prior to reading that book.  I am totally atheist now and no longer 'believe' that Jesus or God exists.  I think they don't.  Belief/faith are simply buzz words used by the religious to say they have no facts to offer, but they believe in whatever they believe in and you had better too or you and your soul will suffer.  There is no soul, god or spokesperson of any kind for the god fiction.  I know that.  And I will continue to think that until someone offers me proof or data to support any god.
Title: Re: Books to read suggestions? oO
Post by: Baruch on September 17, 2020, 10:31:17 AM
Books are the best source for material in understanding something (besides life experience).  Is reading now bad or something?  lol

Books vs on-line, YouTube, e-books.  For me does the content fit my learning style or not.
Title: Re: Books to read suggestions? oO
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on September 17, 2020, 11:34:41 AM
Creatures of Light and Darkness and Lord of Light, both by Roger Zelazny. Why "fantasy" books? Because in both books humans have replicated the "powers" of old school gods, (Egyptian and Hindu in that order). This suggests that the powers of the gods were things "created" by humans, albeit unrealized at the time.
Title: Re: Books to read suggestions? oO
Post by: SGOS on September 17, 2020, 12:07:08 PM
I've read a lot of atheist books, but never gained much out of them, because it was all stuff that I had already figured out.  I guess it was nice to see some writers agreed with me, but that didn't make much difference.  Christopher Hitchens didn't pull any punches in his criticisms of religion, and I remember having a visceral response to this guy who was the epitome of the rabid dog. He has taken some criticism for his brashness, but at the same time I was thinking, "Someone needed to say that."  I doubt that he changed anyone's perspective, either the theist or the atheist, but he did make it clear that we atheists are out here, and we will be heard.
Title: Re: Books to read suggestions? oO
Post by: drunkenshoe on September 17, 2020, 01:35:35 PM
Books are the best source for material in understanding something (besides life experience).  Is reading now bad or something?  lol

You haven't answered my question. No, reading is not bad. But I just want to know why do you want to read on atheism, that's all.  What do you think reading on athiesm is going to give to you?

Because you're not going to find some plot that will motivate you to be an at-ease-atheist, and by the way that 'at ease position' also a form of existance (with a :p) left from belief. Why are you looking for a plot of some sort? This is about nature and life at the very bottom and contrary to common belief that is NOT a human story. Why don't you read about popular science? Cosmology, evolution...

You write something, and people here -naturally- write back their experiences which is perfectly fine but that's it... Do you want to move?
Title: Re: Books to read suggestions? oO
Post by: PickelledEggs on September 17, 2020, 02:40:29 PM
Read Nightfall, by Asimov.
Title: Re: Books to read suggestions? oO
Post by: drunkenshoe on September 17, 2020, 03:07:15 PM
Yeah, he has a point... Read, Asimov. Read, Orwell, Vonnegut, Dick... (That's pretty much Westworld, but please read.) Read, Ursula. Also read The Selfish Gene. But please read, Feynman, Lectures on Physics, first. Then Brief History of Time, the man in the chair. Then read, Lederman's God Particle.


 
Title: Re: Books to read suggestions? oO
Post by: Mr.Obvious on September 17, 2020, 04:30:53 PM
I quite liked 'God is not Great' by Christopher Hitchens, if you're looking for atheist literature.
I read it when I just found out I was atheist and not 'agnostic' as I labeled myself before.
Not sure if I'd still like it. Was like ten years ago, but seemed pretty good back then.
Title: Re: Books to read suggestions? oO
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on September 17, 2020, 04:51:26 PM
Read Nightfall, by Asimov.

Best read by candlelight.
Title: Re: Books to read suggestions? oO
Post by: AFactNeedingPerson on September 17, 2020, 05:43:18 PM
You haven't answered my question. No, reading is not bad. But I just want to know why do you want to read on atheism, that's all.  What do you think reading on athiesm is going to give to you?....



I think i am looking for people who share the same understanding and belief. If declaring being Atheist is as simple as just stating it and being done, there wouldn't be a need for the human experience and the stories of others in the same arena. I enjoy books - they are my general source of information.  I got a kindle and can take them anywhere.  So literally speaking, i want to learn more through books.  But more broadened, i also want to here other perspectives, see their stories, learn some new words that i didn't know before....etc.

Thank you everyone for the suggestions. I'll take a look.
Title: Re: Books to read suggestions? oO
Post by: drunkenshoe on September 17, 2020, 05:57:36 PM
I think i am looking for people who share the same understanding and belief. If declaring being Atheist is as simple as just stating it and being done, there wouldn't be a need for the human experience and the stories of others in the same arena. I enjoy books - they are my general source of information.  I got a kindle and can take them anywhere.  So literally speaking, i want to learn more through books.  But more broadened, i also want to here other perspectives, see their stories, learn some new words that i didn't know before....etc.

Thank you everyone for the suggestions. I'll take a look.

Atheism IS NOT A BELIEF. Decleration of words? Just saying a few words would declare you a muslim.

Reading, doesn't make you an atheist. Nothing makes you an atheist. Do you believe in a God?
Title: Re: Books to read suggestions? oO
Post by: AFactNeedingPerson on September 17, 2020, 06:12:16 PM
Atheism IS NOT A BELIEF. Decleration of words? Just saying a few words would declare you a muslim.

Reading, doesn't make you an atheist. Nothing makes you an atheist. Do you believe in a God?

Simple, no.   It seems the common theme here thus far is if one is to be atheist, he is alone.  Its not a religion - i get it.  Theism is the belief if a god/gods.  Atheism is the lack of belief in a god/gods.

I am simply trying to educate myself and find some like thinkers in the process. Rough crowd here....
Title: Re: Books to read suggestions? oO
Post by: drunkenshoe on September 17, 2020, 06:25:19 PM
Simple, no.   It seems the common theme here thus far is if one is to be atheist, he is alone.  Its not a religion - i get it.  Theism is the belief if a god/gods.  Atheism is the lack of belief in a god/gods.

I am simply trying to educate myself and find some like thinkers in the process. Rough crowd here....

OK. You are what we call a 'deist'. Someone who believes in a supreme being that created universe and everything in it BUT does not interfere the life in it.
Title: Re: Books to read suggestions? oO
Post by: AFactNeedingPerson on September 17, 2020, 06:28:37 PM
OK. You are what we call a 'deist'. Someone who believes in a supreme being that created universe and everything in it BUT does not interfere the life in it.

Nope.  Nothing evidentiary suggest a higher power man in the sky that created or maintains the universe. 
Title: Re: Books to read suggestions? oO
Post by: drunkenshoe on September 17, 2020, 06:33:42 PM
Nope.  Nothing evidentiary suggest a higher power man in the sky that created or maintains the universe.

OK.
Title: Re: Books to read suggestions? oO
Post by: Baruch on September 17, 2020, 07:15:15 PM
I think i am looking for people who share the same understanding and belief. If declaring being Atheist is as simple as just stating it and being done, there wouldn't be a need for the human experience and the stories of others in the same arena. I enjoy books - they are my general source of information.  I got a kindle and can take them anywhere.  So literally speaking, i want to learn more through books.  But more broadened, i also want to here other perspectives, see their stories, learn some new words that i didn't know before....etc.

Thank you everyone for the suggestions. I'll take a look.

When I was a spud, I learned me better English by reading books above my grade level ;-}  Still compulsive reading is my way of life.
Title: Re: Books to read suggestions? oO
Post by: Mike Cl on September 17, 2020, 07:17:45 PM
Simple, no.   It seems the common theme here thus far is if one is to be atheist, he is alone.  Its not a religion - i get it.  Theism is the belief if a god/gods.  Atheism is the lack of belief in a god/gods.

I am simply trying to educate myself and find some like thinkers in the process. Rough crowd here....
AFact, I remember being in your place right now.  I was never a strong theist--if I ever was a theist.  I considered myself an agnostic.  But I found that position uncomfortable.  So, in a sort of mid-life crisis feeling, I resolved to figure it out one way or the other.  So, I began an earnest search for god; joined a church and even spent a few years on its board as president and vice-president.  Figured that would get me closer to god--:)).  And I began a deep read of seminary approved books on Jesus and God.  I also picked up some books from the opposite side, mainly Robert M. Price and Dogherty.  That was a process that took about a decade.  I tried to embrace the traditional christian god--that did not set well; then I tried a deist type of belief--that didn't take; and tried several other paths to a 'god'.  None worked.  I also did a deep study of the bible--while very, very interesting, it underscored the fact that christianity is a pick and choose type of religion; the bible is cobbled together from a huge assortment of writings, none of which is fact based.  An equally deep study of the nonbelievers produced more facts for me to deal with; their arguments made sense to me.  Anyway, at the end of the decade I ended up understanding that I am an atheist and I think I can say without any doubts, there is no god and Jesus is a fiction.  All religion is a fiction.  Unless and until somebody can can give me data or facts about any god or jesus, I know they are human created fictions.  Without hesitation I call myself an atheist. 

I love reading about topics I am interested in.  And so, I still read atheist books and articles that seem to be a bit different than the usual theist material.  It helps me keep my thought clear--and I am always interested in the outlook of others.  Keep on reading--it's good for you.
Title: Re: Books to read suggestions? oO
Post by: Baruch on September 17, 2020, 07:21:39 PM
Yeah, he has a point... Read, Asimov. Read, Orwell, Vonnegut, Dick... (That's pretty much Westworld, but please read.) Read, Ursula. Also read The Selfish Gene. But please read, Feynman, Lectures on Physics, first. Then Brief History of Time, the man in the chair. Then read, Lederman's God Particle.

I read Lederman too, but not available on the Atheist book shelves ;-)
Title: Re: Books to read suggestions? oO
Post by: PopeyesPappy on September 17, 2020, 09:37:40 PM
Your Inner Fish
Why Evolution is True
The Lord of the Rings
Dune
The Dragon Riders of Pern
1984
Fahrenheit 451
Animal Farm
The Stand
20,000 Leagues Under The Sea
Ringworld
The Once And Future King
The Crystal Cave
Brotherhood of War
Flight of the Old Dog
Title: Re: Books to read suggestions? oO
Post by: Mike Cl on September 17, 2020, 09:59:46 PM
Your Inner Fish
Why Evolution is True
The Lord of the Rings
Dune
The Dragon Riders of Pern
1984
Fahrenheit 451
Animal Farm
The Stand
20,000 Leagues Under The Sea
Ringworld
The Once And Future King
The Crystal Cave
Brotherhood of War Book
Flight of the Old Dog
Quite the reading list--most are on mine as well.  Dragon Riders of Pern--forgotten how much I loved those books.
Title: Re: Books to read suggestions? oO
Post by: Draconic Aiur on September 18, 2020, 01:51:17 AM
Books about Religion and/or Atheistic writings? Try out these books:

Eight Theories of Religion or Nine Theories of Religion both by Daniel L. Pals
Witchcraft, oracles and magic among the Azande by E. E. Evans-Pritchard
Title: Re: Books to read suggestions? oO
Post by: Mr.Obvious on September 18, 2020, 01:53:50 AM
I also wholeheartedly and with vigor recommend 'small gods' by Terry Pratchett.
It's a Discworld novel, but pretty much stand alone. You don't need to have read the previous entries in the saga.
Title: Re: Books to read suggestions? oO
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on September 18, 2020, 07:31:29 AM
The Dragon Riders of Pern
The author, Anne McCaffrey, said that she "strongly suggests the books be read in publication order.

So, the first six P.E.R.N. novels to read would be.
Dragonflight
Dragonquest
Dragon Song
Dragon Singer
The White Dragon
Dragon Drums
http://pernhome.com/pern/books/publication-order/

BTW: The humans who immigrated to Pern did not bring any religion with them. Seems like they got along just fine without it.
Title: Re: Books to read suggestions? oO
Post by: SGOS on September 18, 2020, 08:36:06 AM
I just ordered nightfall after hearing about it here.  It should be here next Friday, although that is no longer a given with the new improved trumpmail.
Title: Re: Books to read suggestions? oO
Post by: PopeyesPappy on September 18, 2020, 08:46:54 AM
The author, Anne McCaffrey, said that she "strongly suggests the books be read in publication order.

Some of the events in Dragondrum were contiguous with The White Dragon. So I prefer Dragondrum first since The White Dragon is really the culmination of that whole story line.
Title: Re: Books to read suggestions? oO
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on September 18, 2020, 01:45:18 PM
Some of the events in Dragondrum were contiguous with The White Dragon. So I prefer Dragondrum first since The White Dragon is really the culmination of that whole story line.
She "suggested". I gave a full set of Pern books (less Todd's books) to a twelve y.o. and told him to read them in chronological order.
Title: Re: Books to read suggestions? oO
Post by: PopeyesPappy on September 18, 2020, 02:28:36 PM
She "suggested". I gave a full set of Pern books (less Todd's books) to a twelve y.o. and told him to read them in chronological order.

Just throwing my reason for reading Dragondrum first out there... If you read The White Dragon before Dragondrum, Dragondrum kinda becomes a prequel.
Title: Re: Books to read suggestions? oO
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on September 18, 2020, 04:42:43 PM
Just throwing my reason for reading Dragondrum first out there... If you read The White Dragon before Dragondrum, Dragondrum kinda becomes a prequel.
Depends on which version of Piemur you like.
Title: Re: Books to read suggestions? oO
Post by: trdsf on September 18, 2020, 07:32:32 PM
A lot of the non-theist reading I would have suggested is already here, as is some of the fiction.

To the latter, I'll add:

The Hitch-Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy series // Douglas Adams
The (core) Foundation trilogy / I, Robot (or better yet, The Complete Robot) / the Lije Baley trilogy // Isaac Asimov
The Nine Billion Names of God / Childhood's End // Arthur C Clarke
Stand on Zanzibar // John Brunner
Cat's Cradle // Kurt Vonnegut
Contact // Carl Sagan (so much better than the movie, and I liked the movie)
Brave New World // Aldous Huxley
the Holmes canon // Arthur Conan Doyle
the Dr. Thorndyke series / R Austin Freeman
Sherlock Holmes of Baker Street // William S. Baring-Gould
The Physicists / The Visit // Friedrich Dürrenmatt
The Illuminatus! Trilogy // Robert Anton Wilson and Bob Shea


Under non-fiction, let me add:

Gödel Escher Bach / Metamagical Themas / The Mind's I // Douglas Hofstadter
The Ancestor's Tale / The Selfish Gene / The Blind Watchmaker // Richard Dawkins
Cosmos / The Demon-Haunted World // Carl Sagan
Brave New World Revisited // Aldous Huxley
A Brief History of Time // Stephen Hawking
Six Easy Pieces and Six Not-So-Easy Pieces / Perfectly Reasonable Deviations // Richard Feynman
The Secret Art of Dr Seuss / Dr Seuss Goes to War // Theodore Geisel
What If?: Serious Scientific Answers to Absurd Hypothetical Questions // Randall Munroe
A Year at the Movies // Kevin Murphy
The Fireside Watergate // Nicholas von Hoffman
Inside Music // Karl Haas

That might give you something to chew on.  :D
Title: Re: Books to read suggestions? oO
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on September 19, 2020, 07:30:14 AM
Thanks for the brain jog, Stand on Zanzibar ordered. Now to find a gal not wearing impervipants.
Title: Re: Books to read suggestions? oO
Post by: Unbeliever on September 19, 2020, 09:32:40 PM
Just curious, why do you want to read books on atheism?
It's good to know the arguments of both positions in order to better keep from being persuaded by bogus ''logic.''

Besides, it's fun!

:-)
Title: Re: Books to read suggestions? oO
Post by: Unbeliever on September 19, 2020, 09:38:02 PM
I do consider myself agnostic (as correctly used in terms of knowledge) in that it is not possible for anyone to prove that some 'god' can not exist; however I am an atheist in that I do not believe that any god as described/worshipped in past or present religions exists. To learn about religion, forget the holy books and study the human brain.

I hear often that a God cannot be disproven, but I disagree. A theistic God can be disproven by the incompatible properties ascribed to it. I don't have time to get into it, but there's a good site for it, at...


Hold on, I've got to go look up the link...
Title: Re: Books to read suggestions? oO
Post by: Unbeliever on September 19, 2020, 09:43:45 PM
Well, I don't know how to put the link here, with my phone ( I'm not very techy). Just Google incompatible properties arguments: a survey, by Theodore Drange, at infidels.org. It's a good read.
Title: Re: Books to read suggestions? oO
Post by: Baruch on September 19, 2020, 10:16:51 PM
Well, I don't know how to put the link here, with my phone ( I'm not very techy). Just Google incompatible properties arguments: a survey, by Theodore Drange, at infidels.org. It's a good read.

Inverse of Anselm's argument for god and similar such.  Ontological arguments.
Title: Re: Books to read suggestions? oO
Post by: Unbeliever on September 19, 2020, 10:46:49 PM
No, that argument defines God into existence by assuming a perfect being exists, because it could not be perfect without existing. Drange's atheological arguments are not related.
Title: Re: Books to read suggestions? oO
Post by: Cassia on September 19, 2020, 10:51:49 PM
I hear often that a God cannot be disproven, but I disagree. A theistic God can be disproven by the incompatible properties ascribed to it. I don't have time to get into it, but there's a good site for it, at...

While these sorts of logical arguments support my disbelief in the various religious god claims they do not result in my complete knowledge that "a god" does not or can not exist.
Title: Re: Books to read suggestions? oO
Post by: Unbeliever on September 19, 2020, 11:07:06 PM
True, I think there's only exactly one thing any of us can really know: the fact of our own awareness.

All else is subject to uncertainty.
Title: Re: Books to read suggestions? oO
Post by: SGOS on September 20, 2020, 06:01:38 AM
No, that argument defines God into existence by assuming a perfect being exists, because it could not be perfect without existing.
When I read that argument, the first thought I always have is, "Why is existence even important to perfection, especially in relation to God?  I know that's irrelevant and neither here nor there, but it leads to a feeling of, "Oh, fuck this shit."  Now that I'm thinking about it, I'm thinking that if existence is a necessary attribute of perfection, then I can think of a lot of things must be more perfect than God, because most things actually do exist, while God's existence remains a question.  Existence is a pretty fundamental property.  If you have to prove something exists, you are on ice that is much too thin to support something as weightless as an argument.

I know that if that was my answer to a question on a philosophy test, the professor would flunk me.  But I don't care.  Philosophy of that kind has already flunked, and arguments that linger on past the point of "Oh, fuck this shit," don't make sense either, because arguments require two people speaking the same language, and neither of those languages can be Gibberish. 

All of those 18th Century god proofs are nothing but bushels of words to hide logical fallacies.
Title: Re: Books to read suggestions? oO
Post by: Baruch on September 20, 2020, 10:11:27 AM
While these sorts of logical arguments support my disbelief in the various religious god claims they do not result in my complete knowledge that "a god" does not or can not exist.

Mathematicians have the same problem with existence proofs vs constructive proofs.  In an existence proof, if you prove something possible or impossible, you are done.  In a constructive proof, one - you are proving something possible, two - you are demonstrating an example.  I exist, and am a demi-god, so that meets the requirement of number two.
Title: Re: Books to read suggestions? oO
Post by: Baruch on September 20, 2020, 10:13:11 AM
True, I think there's only exactly one thing any of us can really know: the fact of our own awareness.

All else is subject to uncertainty.

Except when you are asleep or delusional.  Consciousness is over-rated.
Title: Re: Books to read suggestions? oO
Post by: Unbeliever on September 20, 2020, 02:17:53 PM
Maybe, but I wouldn't enjoy doing without it.
Title: Re: Books to read suggestions? oO
Post by: Baruch on September 20, 2020, 03:37:26 PM
Maybe, but I wouldn't enjoy doing without it.

How come you know you aren't a brain in a jar?
Title: Re: Books to read suggestions? oO
Post by: Unbeliever on September 20, 2020, 09:04:24 PM
There are no jars large enough to contain me...
.;-)
Title: Re: Books to read suggestions? oO
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on September 21, 2020, 07:32:43 AM
There are no jars large enough to contain me...
.;-)
That's what Abby something thought.
Title: Re: Books to read suggestions? oO
Post by: trdsf on September 21, 2020, 12:07:56 PM
No, that argument defines God into existence by assuming a perfect being exists, because it could not be perfect without existing.
Tell that to physicists and chemists making mathematical use of the perfect gas law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideal_gas_law).  I've never got an answer to that one...
Title: Re: Books to read suggestions? oO
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on September 21, 2020, 12:39:08 PM
Tell that to physicists and chemists making mathematical use of the perfect gas law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideal_gas_law).  I've never got an answer to that one...
You included your answer in your link. "Ideal gas".
Title: Re: Books to read suggestions? oO
Post by: Baruch on September 21, 2020, 04:08:38 PM
Tell that to physicists and chemists making mathematical use of the perfect gas law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideal_gas_law).  I've never got an answer to that one...

An approximation.  As is Ohm's Law in electricity work.  The fact of condensation and freezing, are exactly when the ideal gas law stops working.

I bet you have fits over the Maxwell's Demon argument.
Title: Re: Books to read suggestions? oO
Post by: trdsf on September 21, 2020, 04:24:08 PM
You included your answer in your link. "Ideal gas".
I meant I've never gotten an answer as to why 'perfect' means 'must exist'.
Title: Re: Books to read suggestions? oO
Post by: Baruch on September 21, 2020, 04:57:53 PM
I meant I've never gotten an answer as to why 'perfect' means 'must exist'.

Never saw anything in nature I could call perfect either.  And nature exists.
Title: Re: Books to read suggestions? oO
Post by: AFactNeedingPerson on September 21, 2020, 05:05:20 PM
I appreciate the book suggestions yall.  The thread kind of took a different route...lol
Title: Re: Books to read suggestions? oO
Post by: Baruch on September 21, 2020, 05:15:44 PM
I appreciate the book suggestions yall.  The thread kind of took a different route...lol

Get back to us, which books you enjoy.  We haven't all read all of them.
Title: Re: Books to read suggestions? oO
Post by: SGOS on September 21, 2020, 07:10:12 PM
I meant I've never gotten an answer as to why 'perfect' means 'must exist'.
It's just an arbitrary quality by assumption only.  It lures the sheep in.  Just hearing the word "perfect" puts them in a Jesus trance, and they say, "Yeah, that's right.  God is perfect, so he must exist.  There's not enough there to even make a fake syllogism.  Just a series of mental lapses, and a conclusion.
Title: Re: Books to read suggestions? oO
Post by: Unbeliever on September 21, 2020, 08:38:32 PM
An approximation.  As is Ohm's Law in electricity work.  The fact of condensation and freezing, are exactly when the ideal gas law stops working.

I bet you have fits over the Maxwell's Demon argument.
Maxwell's demon is not an argument, it's a thought experiment.
Title: Re: Books to read suggestions? oO
Post by: Unbeliever on September 21, 2020, 08:43:19 PM
I appreciate the book suggestions yall.  The thread kind of took a different route...lol


Check out the link in my sig and you'll find lots of great reading about atheism related topics.
Title: Re: Books to read suggestions? oO
Post by: Unbeliever on September 21, 2020, 08:44:29 PM
Get back to us, which books you enjoy.  We haven't all read all of them.

Speak for yourself!

;-)
Title: Re: Books to read suggestions? oO
Post by: Baruch on September 21, 2020, 09:32:44 PM
Maxwell's demon is not an argument, it's a thought experiment.

How thoughtless of you ;-)
Title: Re: Books to read suggestions? oO
Post by: Baruch on September 21, 2020, 09:33:31 PM
It's just an arbitrary quality by assumption only.  It lures the sheep in.  Just hearing the word "perfect" puts them in a Jesus trance, and they say, "Yeah, that's right.  God is perfect, so he must exist.  There's not enough there to even make a fake syllogism.  Just a series of mental lapses, and a conclusion.

Part of the theological masturbation theologians engage in.
Title: Re: Books to read suggestions? oO
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on September 22, 2020, 07:37:32 AM
I meant I've never gotten an answer as to why 'perfect' means 'must exist'.
Meh, it's just a greatness. My god is great because... [long list of improbable things]. The god dicksizing chat in "Conan, The Barbarian" is an example.
Title: Re: Books to read suggestions? oO
Post by: Baruch on September 22, 2020, 09:26:26 AM
Meh, it's just a greatness. My god is great because... [long list of improbable things]. The god dicksizing chat in "Conan, The Barbarian" is an example.

Krum would be your kind of pagan god ;-)
Title: Re: Books to read suggestions? oO
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on September 22, 2020, 11:20:40 AM
Krom.
Title: Re: Books to read suggestions? oO
Post by: Unbeliever on September 22, 2020, 01:51:54 PM
I would not say I'm only 99% certain that Santa Claus doesn't exist, or Aquaman doesn't exist. So why can I only be 99% sure that God doesn't exist?
Title: Re: Books to read suggestions? oO
Post by: Baruch on September 22, 2020, 02:16:08 PM
Krom.

Now you said it!  Please don't properly pronounce Cthulhu ... we don't need another primal god arising!
Title: Re: Books to read suggestions? oO
Post by: Baruch on September 22, 2020, 02:18:41 PM
I would not say I'm only 99% certain that Santa Claus doesn't exist, or Aquaman doesn't exist. So why can I only be 99% sure that God doesn't exist?

Just expressing your cultural preferences.  As we all do.  Of course, in human conflict, we want to dictate to every other person on the planet, even though we can't get our spouse or children to obey us ;-)
Title: Re: Books to read suggestions? oO
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on September 22, 2020, 06:00:20 PM
I would not say I'm only 99% certain that Santa Claus doesn't exist, or Aquaman doesn't exist. So why can I only be 99% sure that God doesn't exist?
My don'tcareness starts way before 99%.