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Humanities Section => Philosophy & Rhetoric General Discussion => Topic started by: viocjit on September 08, 2020, 12:32:52 PM

Title: Eternal Return
Post by: viocjit on September 08, 2020, 12:32:52 PM
When I think about the ultimate fate of the universe.
I think about the possibility of a new big bang identical to the one we had.
If that happens. Does it means we will back and have an identical life with a score of 100% ?
If that happens. Will we have a conscience composed of the same atoms or it will be another us because it would be like a double in a parallel universe.

If the new big bang will create a parallel universe with a double of us ?

Do we live in a simulation ? I don't think so but why not. Maybe the universe is a simulation that is long to run (Calculate the time between big bang and now) at our scale but short for those who are using simulation. Maybe 1 billion year correspond to 1 hour , less or more for those who play with us if we are in a simulation.
How can we be sure we were alive 1 minute ago or if this is not an illusion created by a simulation or a division of an universe in the multiverse ? I think I was really there but ....

Article on Wikipedia about ultimate fate of the universe : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_fate_of_the_universe
Article on Wikipedia concerning timeline of the far future : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_far_future
Article on Wikipedia about simulation hypothesis : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulation_hypothesis
Title: Re: Eternal Return
Post by: SGOS on September 08, 2020, 12:43:15 PM
I don't think we can have another beginning of the universe until this one is gone, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say there will be no carry over of your soul into the new universe.

At any rate, I think I recall having this conversation 50 years ago in college at 3:00 AM while smoking pot.
Title: Re: Eternal Return
Post by: drunkenshoe on September 08, 2020, 03:40:51 PM
How is it that something sooo enormous and moving beyond itself that can only be defined mathematically to make sense is subjected to a question -or answer, expectation, anticipation- of existence, from the point of view of a species that have existed less than a second (couple of million years) in a planet with a life time of four and a half billion years, in a thirteen and a half billions year old of universe, in philosophical terms? What happens? If happens? ?

No, I don't think we live in a simulation. It's another expression of human narcissism. It's like the AI scenarios... an ultimate 'machine' so evolved by itself, it only cares about how to govern us for our good or bad, and in the end makes better warriors of us; making us heroes,lol.

It's about humans being special, over and over again. If not created as special, it is surely fucking coded as special. Or some alien made a special experiment. While the whole universe is flowing with the original material for life, drowning in fertility to create countless life, somebody surely made a simulation just to make us or in any case we are turned out to be a very -special- surprising result indeed. And surely in the future of death or rebirth of that unimaginable vastness, we would be coming back in some way.

All of them are the same bullshit. Different versions of the special creature of the creator stories.

We'll all just overbreed, kill the planet, eat each other like mice and die, perish forever. Like any other species. I swear, I'm so fucking sick of this...
Title: Re: Eternal Return
Post by: Baruch on September 08, 2020, 03:50:02 PM
Honey bees:  Be more social, be an infertile clone of the Queen
Bumble bees:  Be less social, hold my pollen
Title: Re: Eternal Return
Post by: drunkenshoe on September 08, 2020, 04:37:36 PM
Honey bees:  Be more social, be an infertile clone of the Queen
Bumble bees:  Be less social, hold my pollen

Killer Bees: Support equality, kill everything in sight...hold my beer.
Title: Re: Eternal Return
Post by: Baruch on September 08, 2020, 05:15:24 PM
Killer Bees: Support equality, kill everything in sight...hold my beer.

Totalitarianism works, but few will enjoy it
Individualism works, provided it isn't sociopathic, more will enjoy it
Sociopathy doesn't work, its self destructive, no one will enjoy it

Fortunately killer bees coming up from S America (after being brought in from Africa) have been tamed by inter-breeding with siesta bees in Mexico ;-)
Title: Re: Eternal Return
Post by: SoldierofFortune on September 08, 2020, 05:26:23 PM
Maybe they who has created the simulation in which we are living wants us to understand that we are living in a simulation.
But why do they want that?
And then they must be so very superior than us(the simulated ones) and their understanding is beyond ours because they has succeeded in creating us and they are almost gods to us.
but hey, how can they know that they are really living in the ''real'' universe and they weren't be created some other more intelligent ones... This is an infinite cycle...
Title: Re: Eternal Return
Post by: drunkenshoe on September 08, 2020, 05:33:12 PM
I get the feeling that Geralt wants to have sex with me so often, I'm always sure it is about to happen very soon.
Title: Re: Eternal Return
Post by: Baruch on September 08, 2020, 05:59:26 PM
Maybe they who has created the simulation in which we are living wants us to understand that we are living in a simulation.
But why do they want that?
And then they must be so very superior than us(the simulated ones) and their understanding is beyond ours because they has succeeded in creating us and they are almost gods to us.
but hey, how can they know that they are really living in the ''real'' universe and they weren't be created some other more intelligent ones... This is an infinite cycle...

Stand between two mirrors.  It is simulation all the way down (what you see is in your head, what it might be outside your head is a pragmatic method).  That is what consciousness is.  Except it you, a demi-god who is doing this.
Title: Re: Eternal Return
Post by: drunkenshoe on September 08, 2020, 06:07:48 PM
Stand between two mirrors.  It is simulation all the way down (what you see is in your head, what it might be outside your head is a pragmatic method).  That is what consciousness is.  Except it you, a demi-god who is doing this.

*Lily Weatherwax approves this. *Esmeralda Weatherwax kicks her ass. "This one."
Title: Re: Eternal Return
Post by: Baruch on September 08, 2020, 07:10:17 PM
*Lily Weatherwax approves this. *Esmeralda Weatherwax kicks her ass. "This one."

Humans can think about and talk about themselves in 3rd, 4th ... person.  No other animal is this stupid.  Shark sees food.  Shark eats food.  No cogitation required!
Title: Re: Eternal Return
Post by: drunkenshoe on September 08, 2020, 07:45:20 PM
Humans can think about and talk about themselves in 3rd, 4th ... person.  No other animal is this stupid.  Shark sees food.  Shark eats food.  No cogitation required!

Have you ever head of Terry Pratchett?
Title: Re: Eternal Return
Post by: Baruch on September 08, 2020, 10:12:17 PM
Have you ever head of Terry Pratchett?

No, but I have now ;-)
Title: Re: Eternal Return
Post by: Mr.Obvious on September 09, 2020, 06:52:48 AM
My favorite author.

Granny Weatherwax is awesome.
Wasn't a fan of Equal Rites, but she grew. And she grew one me.
Title: Re: Eternal Return
Post by: aitm on September 09, 2020, 08:43:20 AM
When I think about the ultimate fate of the universe.
I think about the possibility of a new big bang identical to the one we had.
If that happens. Does it means we will back and have an identical life with a score of 100% ?
If that happens. Will we have a conscience composed of the same atoms or it will be another us because it would be like a double in a parallel universe.

If the new big bang will create a parallel universe with a double of us ?

Do we live in a simulation ? I don't think so but why not. Maybe the universe is a simulation that is long to run (Calculate the time between big bang and now) at our scale but short for those who are using simulation. Maybe 1 billion year correspond to 1 hour , less or more for those who play with us if we are in a simulation.
How can we be sure we were alive 1 minute ago or if this is not an illusion created by a simulation or a division of an universe in the multiverse ? I think I was really there but ....

Article on Wikipedia about ultimate fate of the universe : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_fate_of_the_universe
Article on Wikipedia concerning timeline of the far future : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_far_future
Article on Wikipedia about simulation hypothesis : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulation_hypothesis
I could not think of a worse scenario for the millions born with severe deformities. "What? I gotta be this way again"? That's fucked up
Title: Re: Eternal Return
Post by: Baruch on September 09, 2020, 11:53:38 AM
Eternal return (same life repeated) is one of the crazier ideas of Nietzsche.  Hindu reincarnation is based on automatic if delayed justice.  So horrible the Buddha had to find a way out.

Eternal return also means that in the large scale history can be predicted ... but this is the global activist template ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dalEPCHmvhY

Foundation, not 1984 or Brave New World or Animal Farm

The Elite expect an apocalypse, that is inevitable, but can be profitably triggered, which will lead to a New World Order with them in charge.
Title: Re: Eternal Return
Post by: drunkenshoe on September 10, 2020, 11:44:58 AM
My favorite author.

Granny Weatherwax is awesome.
Wasn't a fan of Equal Rites, but she grew. And she grew one me.

Mine too. Along with Ursula. Granny is great, isn't she? All of his characters are awesome. I love all the witches, Vimes, Death, Susan... Sweeper and of ocurse Rincewind,lol. I love Tiffany books too. If you liked the wicthes, you wold love those too. And Vetinari... That mirror scene is amazing though.

I have been re-reading some of his books from the Discworld series...I have forgotten a lot.

I've cried when he died. It affected me badly. It somehow always felt like he would live longer, you know, like he can't die yet. Ursula was very old it didn't have the same effect.
Title: Re: Eternal Return
Post by: Vulcan on September 10, 2020, 09:30:52 PM
Individualism works, provided it isn't sociopathic, more will enjoy it
Sociopathy doesn't work, its self destructive, no one will enjoy it

I think that genuine (Thoreauvian/Emersonian) individualism is necessarily non-sociopathic. A true sociopath is socially involved, dependant on social interaction to enact his sociopathic behaviors and abuses on others.

A true individualist eschews involvement with society. A sociopath is best described as an interpersonally destructive person. In order to be interpersonally destructive, one must first be interpersonal.
Title: Re: Eternal Return
Post by: Baruch on September 11, 2020, 03:04:00 AM
I think that genuine (Thoreauvian/Emersonian) individualism is necessarily non-sociopathic. A true sociopath is socially involved, dependant on social interaction to enact his sociopathic behaviors and abuses on others.

A true individualist eschews involvement with society. A sociopath is best described as an interpersonally destructive person. In order to be interpersonally destructive, one must first be interpersonal.

Deep, as always.  I think then that an overly altruistic person can be self destructive.
Title: Re: Eternal Return
Post by: SoldierofFortune on September 19, 2020, 09:45:01 AM
I will return after i die as a king, or a monkey.
You can never know :D
Title: Re: Eternal Return
Post by: Baruch on September 19, 2020, 07:47:58 PM
I will return after i die as a king, or a monkey.
You can never know :D

The Monkey King was both!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwuQRUuZ76w
Title: Re: Eternal Return
Post by: Unbeliever on September 19, 2020, 07:51:11 PM
And she grew one me.
Like a fungus?

;-)
Title: Re: Eternal Return
Post by: Baruch on September 19, 2020, 07:52:26 PM
Like a fungus?

;-)

Limpet.
Title: Re: Eternal Return
Post by: Unbeliever on September 19, 2020, 09:28:23 PM
I could be convinced of an eternal return, but even if it were true it would matter not a whit, for without continuity of memory it's NOT the same ''us'' as these lives we have now, even if those lives are exactly identical to those we're living now.
Title: Re: Eternal Return
Post by: Baruch on September 19, 2020, 10:12:44 PM
I could be convinced of an eternal return, but even if it were true it would matter not a whit, for without continuity of memory it's NOT the same ''us'' as these lives we have now, even if those lives are exactly identical to those we're living now.

Pythagoras claimed otherwise.  Do you deny arithmetic like a Democrat?
Title: Re: Eternal Return
Post by: Unbeliever on September 19, 2020, 10:26:43 PM
Pythagoras? He was a moron!


;-)
Title: Re: Eternal Return
Post by: Cassia on September 20, 2020, 06:07:17 AM
Trying to imagine an actual mechanism for some sort of return. Certainly it can't be related to the actual molecules and stored energy that comprise your body when your systems fail and decompose. The simplest parts of you are re-purposed after the complexity of you is greatly reduced to basic elements and simple compounds. But what does that leave of your actual essence? A soul? Don't even know what that might be. A 'floating mind' with no physical enabler? Got a long way to go before I consider this proposal.
Title: Re: Eternal Return
Post by: SGOS on September 20, 2020, 08:32:03 AM
Trying to imagine an actual mechanism for some sort of return. Certainly it can't be related to the actual molecules and stored energy that comprise your body when your systems fail and decompose. The simplest parts of you are re-purposed after the complexity of you is greatly reduced to basic elements and simple compounds. But what does that leave of your actual essence? A soul? Don't even know what that might be. A 'floating mind' with no physical enabler? Got a long way to go before I consider this proposal.
Everything is possible in the imagination.  But some people can't tell imagination from reality.
Title: Re: Eternal Return
Post by: Baruch on September 20, 2020, 10:02:36 AM
Pythagoras? He was a moron!


;-)

Not even a square ;-)
Title: Re: Eternal Return
Post by: Baruch on September 20, 2020, 10:04:08 AM
Everything is possible in the imagination.  But some people can't tell imagination from reality.

People who oppose the imagination are philistines.  They hate Jar Jar Binks.
Title: Re: Eternal Return
Post by: Unbeliever on September 20, 2020, 02:23:17 PM
If the universe is cyclic, as some models propose, then an eternal return is plausible. But I don't think there is much philosophical or metaphysical meaning to it
Title: Re: Eternal Return
Post by: viocjit on September 21, 2020, 11:31:26 PM
Thanks to those who answered to this topic that I created with an entertainment purpose.

If we were living in a simulation. Are we in a full or partial reproduction of a world that already existed or a fiction ?
Title: Re: Eternal Return
Post by: Baruch on September 22, 2020, 09:17:37 AM
Thanks to those who answered to this topic that I created with an entertainment purpose.

If we were living in a simulation. Are we in a full or partial reproduction of a world that already existed or a fiction ?

The meaning of the world is a collective experience in people's heads.  Our collective perception is a partial reproduction of our own past, and is always a kind of fiction, so yes to both.  Qualia may or may not be involved in our individual/social delusions.