For all the platitudes it seems more like a contract of expectations and ego stroking to me. Parent/child love seems like true altruism. Perhaps after years and years, romantic love can change to become altruistic. Am I wrong?
I don't know, and I've been at this whole love thing for a long time.
My experience is that romantic love is a love affair or a honeymoon. Short term only. Common interest and compatibility are stronger and more rational. Friendship is strongest, but that isn't forever either. Parent love for child is a permanent commitment, but only if you commit. Many parents don't give a shit for their children. Marriage can change from romantic love into altruistic love, mine did. Eros, philos and agape in Greek.
It's probably an evolutionary artifact that instills the desire for romance and partner selection and then amps it up with hormones. I have friends that seem addicted to it even as they get older, their lives wrecked by romantic urges.
Romantic love, imo, is a man with an erection and a woman who believes he wants her for her personality. Men rarely get romantic live if it is not going to be followed by a little hibbety- jibbety.
Quote from: aitm on August 23, 2020, 09:21:07 PM
Romantic love, imo, is a man with an erection and a woman who believes he wants her for her personality. Men rarely get romantic live if it is not going to be followed by a little hibbety- jibbety.
That's a bit too cynical to match my feeling about it. I may be the outsider here, but romance is something I really get off on, not that I experience it all the time, but when it happens, I love it. As for the hibbety- jibbety, I don't keep that separate from love, and I think people are misguided for claiming it's not real love. To me, sex is an integral part of the whole package that intensives the relationship.
Granted some guys just want sex, and to Hell with a relationship. At least I've heard this is so (usually from a woman), and most guys are too macho to even want to talk about how sex adds to romance, love, and togetherness. But I know it's different for everyone. Some people don't want sex that much, men and women both, and they see it as unimportant in a relationship. I'm OK with that, but that's not how I want it. I've had one night stands without getting all gooey about it, but it's not something I search for. It's better when it is a part of something more meaningful. What makes it more meaningful? I haven't figured out what that is yet. I just know that sometimes relationships can be meaningful, and sex always plays a big part in it.
Well, naturally this is going to be a strictly personal review as that is the nature of the subject. It might sound primitive, extreme or come as a backward cultural trait.
I have been in love and as it has a too great impact on me, it is one thing in life that scares the hell out of me. Because I do fall in love and love unconditionally. To be brutally honest and painfully stupid, if you can be logical or rational about that person at the first aspect of anything -without forcing yourself to think further- that is not love. There is no equality, gender or even human rights in love. Love is fucked up and messy, out of control, weird and painful and troublesome and I don't believe there is another way to love. Or I don't know how to love in any other way but I don't think something different than that could affect me. At least it proved that way so far.
I'm not a romantic person, I don't think. I don't think being 'romantic' has anything to do with love. That sounds like a movie or a book.
I remember a woman asking me one time, "Why do you love me?" I was stumped. How could I be stumped by such an important question? It's because there is no logical answer. But I only arrived at that conclusion 40 years later.
Quote from: SGOS on August 24, 2020, 07:53:46 AM
I remember a woman asking me one time, "Why do you love me?" I was stumped. How could I be stumped by such an important question? It's because there is no logical answer. But I only arrived at that conclusion 40 years later.
It could be that we really enjoy being wanted and accepted by someone. It is more about ourselves then it is about them. It was typical for me to wind up with a "mirror", where the other person play acts to match what they think I want. Eventually I learn who they really are.
There is societal pressure against being alone. Who will go to a movie or to dine out solo?
I like the idea of romantic love. And I've experienced it for awhile. But like all things, change happens. Love is not a static emotion (but then, what is?), but changes as we change as life changes. If find I like marriage; but a bad marriage is the worst possible living arraignment. And a good marriage is about the best; for me. Romantic love (infatuation) was fleeting (well, I'd say a couple of years, part of which was while married) but enjoyable; but I was not saddened when it slowly faded; that's a natural part of change.
Oddly enough I find Kahlil Gibran poem on marriage sums it up for me:
On Marriage
BY KAHLIL GIBRAN
Then Almitra spoke again and said, And
what of Marriage, master?
And he answered saying:
You were born together, and together you
shall be forevermore.
You shall be together when the white
wings of death scatter your days.
Ay, you shall be together even in the
silent memory of God.
But let there be spaces in your togetherness,
And let the winds of the heavens dance
between you.
Love one another, but make not a bond
of love:
Let it rather be a moving sea between
the shores of your souls.
Fill each other’s cup but drink not from
one cup.
Give one another of your bread but eat
not from the same loaf.
Sing and dance together and be joyous,
but let each one of you be alone,
Even as the strings of a lute are alone
though they quiver with the same music.
Give your hearts, but not into each
other’s keeping.
For only the hand of Life can contain
your hearts.
And stand together yet not too near
together:
For the pillars of the temple stand apart,
And the oak tree and the cypress grow
not in each other’s shadow.
Take out all the 'god' labels and that is how I regard a good marriage. Each member of the couple is a person. I regard my wife as a partner, not a wife.
Quote from: Mike Cl on August 24, 2020, 08:49:30 AMOddly enough I find Kahlil Gibran poem on marriage sums it up for me:.....
Take out all the 'god' labels and that is how I regard a good marriage. Each member of the couple is a person. I regard my wife as a partner, not a wife.
That is beautiful poem!
Quote from: Cassia on August 24, 2020, 09:13:58 AM
That is beautiful poem!
If you haven't read The Prophet, you owe it to yourself to do so. Besides On Marriage, I have read the one On Children hundreds of time.
It is the one book I skim thru fairly often.
Quote from: Cassia on August 23, 2020, 08:08:45 PM
It's probably an evolutionary artifact that instills the desire for romance and partner selection and then amps it up with hormones. I have friends that seem addicted to it even as they get older, their lives wrecked by romantic urges.
In prehistory, men and women were ugly, brutish and short (but enough about my Ex) … and never bathed. A cave man would bring a fresh gazelle head to his beau. Only hormones could have overcome these problems.
There is a whole genre of romance for women it seems. The Bronte sisters stuff and zillions of romance dime novels. This is porn for women. Women are better at idealism of this type … in love with love … but it is a teen thing. Sad when a cougar goes after someone 40 years younger. Of course no man, not even Heathcliff, can meet these ideals. Though IMHO men age better than women ;-)
Quote from: SGOS on August 24, 2020, 07:53:46 AM
I remember a woman asking me one time, "Why do you love me?" I was stumped. How could I be stumped by such an important question? It's because there is no logical answer. But I only arrived at that conclusion 40 years later.
She wouldn't have appreciated mansplaining anyway. Men don't cogitate like women.
I recommend Kahlil Gibran also, with G-d left in. He was a big meme in the 1920, think Rudolf Valentino.
Oddly enough, the younger males in the family are not pursuing serious relationships at all. The are aware of the 'going your own way' thing going around but say they are not into that. They just say they don't wanna be tied down right now and prefer to keep it casual. The landscape is changing, with people waiting longer to have families.
As one is getting older, his or her romanticsm keeps loosing its sharpness and sex takes place of it.
Romanticism requires one love only.
Quote from: Cassia on August 24, 2020, 11:24:21 AM
Oddly enough, the younger males in the family are not pursuing serious relationships at all. The are aware of the 'going your own way' thing going around but say they are not into that. They just say they don't wanna be tied down right now and prefer to keep it casual. The landscape is changing, with people waiting longer to have families.
Here, even younger females of a certain class act the same way. But honestly I'm not sure -male or female- if they do it because they really think/believe in that or just adapting to some new age fashion blindly.
Quote from: Cassia on August 24, 2020, 11:24:21 AM
Oddly enough, the younger males in the family are not pursuing serious relationships at all. The are aware of the 'going your own way' thing going around but say they are not into that. They just say they don't wanna be tied down right now and prefer to keep it casual. The landscape is changing, with people waiting longer to have families.
And I think the societal attitude that if married, children must follow, is also changing. I love my daughters, both biological and step, but if I were given the opportunity to go back and chose to have children or not, I may opt for 'not'. That is not to say I don't deeply love my daughters. Yes, children do complicate things every now and again.
Quote from: SoldierofFortune on August 24, 2020, 11:28:12 AM
As one is getting older, his or her romanticsm keeps loosing its sharpness and sex takes place of it.
Romanticism requires one love only.
I see it as the opposite.
I don't love my gf because she loves me. I love her for who she is. For nine years now.
The fact that she loves me back is an amazing bonus.
Maybe I'm misinterpreting what OP meant, but...
In any case. It's not altruism, imho. Nor is parental love.
It's simply a mandatory non-optional part of being, which coincidentally rules.
Quote from: Cassia on August 24, 2020, 11:24:21 AM
Oddly enough, the younger males in the family are not pursuing serious relationships at all. The are aware of the 'going your own way' thing going around but say they are not into that. They just say they don't wanna be tied down right now and prefer to keep it casual. The landscape is changing, with people waiting longer to have families.
This is because of dystopia. Women have biological clocks, men don't. If you can't be a MAN (aka income and looks and personality) then you might as well become a desert marauder like on Tatouine. With government as sugar daddy, no ordinary man can compete. Welfare is the death of marriage and men wanting to sacrifice anything for women or children. Just F around, let the government pick up the check.
Quote from: SoldierofFortune on August 24, 2020, 11:28:12 AM
As one is getting older, his or her romanticsm keeps loosing its sharpness and sex takes place of it.
Romanticism requires one love only.
Example, Ottoman Sultan, or King Solomon, aren't Chad. They are pathetic sex maniacs. Yes, monogamous relationship is the only way to go. I feel the same way about JFK or Bill Clinton … losers both of them.
Don't think you have this in Islam, but in European romanticism, it is a knight's longing for the unobtainable representative of the Virgin Mary. No, you can pledge your troth to the Virgin Mary, and she can appreciate it from afar, but you aren't marrying her. Same deal if it is your human lord's wife, no touchy! This plays into the love tryst between Abelard and Heloise. A Persian like Rumi gets this though.
Quote from: Baruch on August 24, 2020, 08:59:32 PM
This is because of dystopia. Women have biological clocks, men don't. If you can't be a MAN (aka income and looks and personality) then you might as well become a desert marauder like on Tatouine. With government as sugar daddy, no ordinary man can compete. Welfare is the death of marriage and men wanting to sacrifice anything for women or children. Just F around, let the government pick up the check.
No doubt the trend towards egalitarianism will change the nature of romance. Never a fan of Jesus or anyone else having to sacrifice themselves. I remember looking at the guy with the great abs nailed to a cross and thinking...I never asked anyone to die for me or my sins. Egalitarianism might be the real wedge causing this great divide between those who think a new way is possible and those who think there has to be a great evil.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cb8rHfuN8rk
Quote from: aitm on August 23, 2020, 09:21:07 PM
Romantic love, imo, is a man with an erection and a woman who believes he wants her for her personality. Men rarely get romantic live if it is not going to be followed by a little hibbety- jibbety.
Is that what the young folks are calling it these days?
;-)
Quote from: Mike Cl on August 24, 2020, 12:41:57 PM
I see it as the opposite.
He is very young. LOL I love watching men with great age difference disagreeing about love. And some pretending as if it doesn't change at all...cough
aitm cough...
Egalitarianism? Both are bi, and any date is dutch? Rooooomaaantic. How about a pair of opposite tranies?
Quote from: drunkenshoe on August 25, 2020, 02:38:32 AM
He is very young. LOL I love watching men with great age difference disagreeing about love. And some pretending as if it doesn't change at all...cough aitm cough...
you think the age of 32 is very young?
i recommend you to study again what it was to be young, for example, 40 years ago.
my inner reality dictates me to be poligamous.
but you women have taught to the men that to be monogamus is the right and ethic thing to do.
we the men must save ourselves from the teachings of the women.
Quote from: SoldierofFortune on August 25, 2020, 01:41:47 PM
you think the age of 32 is very young?
i recommend you to study again what it was to be young, for example, 40 years ago.
my inner reality dictates me to be poligamous.
but you women have taught to the men that to be monogamus is the right and ethic thing to do.
we the men must save ourselves from the teachings of the women.
Real Turks take their women for involuntary horseback rides ;-)
Quote from: SoldierofFortune on August 25, 2020, 01:41:47 PM
you think the age of 32 is very young?
i recommend you to study again what it was to be young, for example, 40 years ago.
my inner reality dictates me to be poligamous.
but you women have taught to the men that to be monogamus is the right and ethic thing to do.
we the men must save ourselves from the teachings of the women.
LOL I thought you were a twenty something but now you sound like a teenager.
What you describe isn’t love. It’s just as you say - ego stroking and such. Love is sacrificing. And when you find someone special to connect with, you’ll gladly make sacrifices together. I never believed in love tbh, until I met someone who changed my mind on it all.
Quote from: Deidre32 on August 31, 2020, 05:00:22 PM
What you describe isn’t love. It’s just as you say - ego stroking and such. Love is sacrificing. And when you find someone special to connect with, you’ll gladly make sacrifices together. I never believed in love tbh, until I met someone who changed my mind on it all.
Same here. For while it lasts, real love is a rare bird, but possible. My Ex made me a man, my daughter makes me human.
I especially avoid starting a romantic relationship, but who knows, it hits by chance or accident with no signal...
Why i avoid is because it steals my time that i should give to my other special interests...
However, a beautiful woman can help me cure... I have multiple addictions and need to divert my attention to another things in life; things that relates to living my life full.
I am also an Anglophile... I don't know, in my aestetic understanding, them are so very beautiful things...
I am open to Anglophone situations.. :D
Quote from: SoldierofFortune on September 26, 2020, 08:17:49 AM
I especially avoid starting a romantic relationship, but who knows, it hits by chance or accident with no signal...
Why i avoid is because it steals my time that i should give to my other special interests...
However, a beautiful woman can help me cure... I have multiple addictions and need to divert my attention to another things in life; things that relates to living my life full.
I am also an Anglophile... I don't know, in my aestetic understanding, them are so very beautiful things...
I am open to Anglophone situations.. :D
Enjoy the romantic feeling, but don't think with your organ. Enjoy obsessions, but don't let it dominate you (I know a guy who collects never worn collector Nikes). You have a tendency to over do. A loving partner will not stop your personality traits, but you can use your personality traits to ruin any relationship. There is no cure to being you. Your circumstance is to fight your tendency every day, or give into it. Which shows greater character? Is great character from being perfect and having no flaws to overcome?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLLAWiOfukk
This applies to your ultimate opponent, not what you hate, but what you love. It might also help to know the Law of Attraction ;-) Did you remember to bathe and groom? Start with making your bed every day, but don't stop there.
Quote from: drunkenshoe on August 25, 2020, 02:38:32 AM
He is very young. LOL I love watching men with great age difference disagreeing about love. And some pretending as if it doesn't change at all...cough aitm cough...
I calls it as I see it my dear forum wife. Now of course I love yo u very much. ðŸ˜
Quote from: aitm on September 26, 2020, 02:03:58 PM
I calls it as I see it my dear forum wife. Now of course I love yo u very much. ðŸ˜
Pffft....that's why you bonded with your real wife for life, right. Because you call it as you see it? Oh, you love small dogs so much you just can't see them all live in a shelter? I wuv you too honey. You're a lucky man, enjoy it. It's not 70s. ;) :smooch:
If you have a high IQ and your romantic partner is lesser in that respect you will have many interesting conundrums. And also if they are not the skeptical type and you are.
You have figured out the plot to a movie within the first 1/2 hour.. do you just keep your mouth shut? When as a passenger you calculate the next 3 likely traffic events about to occur.... they will lead to disaster and your loving partner at the wheel is oblivious. Do you just inhale and grip the dashboard? When the extended warranty seems like a good idea to them. When they are a financial mess and it is costing you both dearly. From booking flights to starting a BBQ grill they just fuck it up. Do you "help"?, LOL. When you know someone in your social circle is full of shit and your partner does not. Or it can be physical as well. Your lover has let himself go and is tired all the time. You are in tip-top shape. What to do?
There needs to be a deal. And it will not be romantic.
Quote from: drunkenshoe on September 26, 2020, 03:07:26 PM
Pffft....that's why you bonded with your real wife for life, right. Because you call it as you see it? Oh, you love small dogs so much you just can't see them all live in a shelter? I wuv you too honey. You're a lucky man, enjoy it. It's not 70s. ;) :smooch:
I waited till I was 30...kinda Greek folklore...but I did actually look for “loveâ€, but if it wasn’t a “boner†whenever she wasn’t around, it wasn’t “loveâ€. 😘
Quote from: aitm on September 26, 2020, 03:49:13 PM
I waited till I was 30...kinda Greek folklore...but I did actually look for %u201Clove%u201D, but if it wasn%u2019t a %u201Cboner%u201D whenever she wasn%u2019t around, it wasn%u2019t %u201Clove%u201D. %uD83D%uDE18
What does that even mean? "I loved her but I fucked around?" Do you really think that fucking someone else when convenient would stop you loving another one for life? How old are you, again?
Quote from: drunkenshoe on September 26, 2020, 04:40:47 PM
What does that even mean? "I loved her but I fucked around?" Do you really think that fucking someone else when convenient would stop you loving another one for life? How old are you, again?
Sweetheart...you went from 1 to wheelbarrow awful fast. I waited till I was 30, found “my loveâ€, but if I didn’t have a boner whenever she was around...it wasn’t love...love.
Of course it wouldn't happen without sex. But you describe it as if it is a very conscious thing we decide to do. It is confusing. Or maybe you knew the exact thing you want. It doesn't or so far didn't happen to me that way.
Quote from: drunkenshoe on September 27, 2020, 03:27:23 AM
Of course it wouldn't happen without sex. But you describe it as if it is a very conscious thing we decide to do. It is confusing. Or maybe you knew the exact thing you want. It doesn't or so far didn't happen to me that way.
Of course it didn’t happen to you that way. To that I refer back to my original post.
Quote from: drunkenshoe on September 27, 2020, 03:27:23 AM
Of course it wouldn't happen without sex. But you describe it as if it is a very conscious thing we decide to do. It is confusing. Or maybe you knew the exact thing you want. It doesn't or so far didn't happen to me that way.
"What do women want?" - Sigmund Freud
"Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar" - Sigmund Freud ... conundrum solved by President Clinton and Ms Lewinsky
---
"Man gets thrown from boat after marriage proposal fail in viral video" ... see what happens with women?
Is there a kind of love that's not romantic?
Not mentioning about the affection of a mother to her baby.
Love is by nature consists of romanticism.
Quote from: Cassia on September 26, 2020, 03:29:37 PM
If you have a high IQ and your romantic partner is lesser in that respect you will have many interesting conundrums. And also if they are not the skeptical type and you are.
You have figured out the plot to a movie within the first 1/2 hour.. do you just keep your mouth shut? When as a passenger you calculate the next 3 likely traffic events about to occur.... they will lead to disaster and your loving partner at the wheel is oblivious. Do you just inhale and grip the dashboard? When the extended warranty seems like a good idea to them. When they are a financial mess and it is costing you both dearly. From booking flights to starting a BBQ grill they just fuck it up. Do you "help"?, LOL. When you know someone in your social circle is full of shit and your partner does not. Or it can be physical as well. Your lover has let himself go and is tired all the time. You are in tip-top shape. What to do?
There needs to be a deal. And it will not be romantic.
The right thing to do is to offer help, in the form of pointers or hands-on assistance. If it's rejected, don't push it further. If it's accepted, try to as assist as gingerly as possible so as to not offend the person receiving assistance - it helps to make it a joint effort. Most people are very touchy about this sort of thing, interpreting poorly performing task as a personal failing (when the problem is likely due to a lack of knowledge or a bad habit or maybe it's just an inherently difficult task).
For the exercise problem, you may have to dig a little deeper to get to the root cause (exercise laxity could be a symptom of depression). You have to talk about goals and where you two match up, then figure out how to get there. It's perfectly reasonable for one person to want to be super-duper fit and the other person to want to be fairly fit and for both people to pursue their individual goals while respecting the other person's decision.
Personally, I've had a lot of problems with other people not respecting boundaries and trying to force their methodology/opinions/etc on me. I'm naturally a fairly pliable person, and some people mistake that for me being their personal doormat. I have since had to change my stance to being permanently on guard with such people, which I find exhausting and likely contributes to my introversion and mild misanthropy.
Change has to be self-chosen - if you're forcing someone to do what you want, not only are they not going to do it outside of your influence, they're likely angered by such intervention into their affairs and seek to change this dynamic.
I struggle with this a little myself, I tend to enthusiastically advertise my own interests and annoy people who may interpret that as me trying to 'force' them to like it too. I have to make it clear that me saying "I like cheese!" or "provolone is the best cheese, imo!" does not in any way obligate someone else to like cheese or prevent them from declaring that they like some other cheese more. My advertisement is more like an invitation than a command - the audience can agree or disagree or whatever and that's totally fine. (though at the same time, if someone were to badmouth something I really love, I can't say that it wouldn't annoy me)
It is a lot of work. When lifespans were only 40-ish years, you could deal with it. Now you may be together 60 or 70 years.....
I recall "The War of the Roses"
"Because. When I watch you eat. When I see you asleep. When I look at you lately, I just want to smash your face in.â€
Quote from: Cassia on September 28, 2020, 10:28:35 PM
It is a lot of work. When lifespans were only 40-ish years, you could deal with it. Now you may be together 60 or 70 years.....
I recall "The War of the Roses"
"Because. When I watch you eat. When I see you asleep. When I look at you lately, I just want to smash your face in.%u201D
But in the War of Roses the issue was contempt. If the husband was supportive and helpful with her business, it could have gone the other way or at least get neutral. He looked down on her. And so everything he did annoyed her to no end eventually. There is an amazing scene there as I recall, when she gives him her business contract, he doesn't even look at it and he swats a fly with it. LOL He constantly brushes her off and makes her feel as good for nothing.
That's a traditional thing about marriages and women's place generally, isn't it? Isn't that the whole thing. Nobody -including women- considers taking care of a home or children as a real job or success while it is a thankless, hard job.
E: Lol, I wrote swap instead of swat.
Quote from: Cassia on September 26, 2020, 03:29:37 PM
If you have a high IQ and your romantic partner is lesser in that respect you will have many interesting conundrums. And also if they are not the skeptical type and you are.
You have figured out the plot to a movie within the first 1/2 hour.. do you just keep your mouth shut? When as a passenger you calculate the next 3 likely traffic events about to occur.... they will lead to disaster and your loving partner at the wheel is oblivious. Do you just inhale and grip the dashboard? When the extended warranty seems like a good idea to them. When they are a financial mess and it is costing you both dearly. From booking flights to starting a BBQ grill they just fuck it up. Do you "help"?, LOL. When you know someone in your social circle is full of shit and your partner does not. Or it can be physical as well. Your lover has let himself go and is tired all the time. You are in tip-top shape. What to do?
There needs to be a deal. And it will not be romantic.
I agree with this. Maybe if he is really good at other things but suck at some others there might be a balance?
I think the most difficult sort of relationship would be between believers and nonbelievers. Or rather between religious and nonbeliever. I don't have that experience but people tell different stuff.
Being permanently on guard is not doable. This is exactly what made me a grumpy, snappy person, sometimes an ass. I'm an ambivert and between extreme as the personality traits go. It's the worst combination you can have as a human being, trust me. Then you come as a nihilistic, pessimistic, misanthropic ass to everyone around you, to potential friend or love.
Rarely, someone gets the situation and if you are lucky they're a someone you can fall for. Then there comes another problem because then there is no guard, because they know how soft and emotional you actually are. So that person should have a much better balanced personality in my case. I got that lucky one time. It was a long relationship.
When I said 'I'm a sucker for a strong man' before in the Last Post thread this was actually what I meant, but yeah it is sexist. I was young and madly in love, and had no idea it took strength at the other side and that I'm a certain type of difficult person in a different way. That has run its course for different reasons and ended. But then years later another man left me because "You don't get me into your life" which I didn't get a thing then. I got it later. He was right from his point of view. He also wanted to get marry and have children and I think that played a big role too.
Myeh...I got used to being single so long, it looks like another universe to me now.
Quote from: SoldierofFortune on September 28, 2020, 09:08:41 PM
Is there a kind of love that's not romantic?
Not mentioning about the affection of a mother to her baby.
Love is by nature consists of romanticism.
Go to the Greek ... eros, philos, agape. Philos is the best, but agape is required. Eros is encouragement to do what is right, not what is wrong. I would rather have a good friend than a SO anytime. Agape is the common good, bigger than me. Philos is friendship. Even Jesus mentions it.
Romanticism is hormones and emotions that control you, you don't control them. This is from Dionysius, not Apollo. Goes good with wine.
Quote from: drunkenshoe on September 29, 2020, 02:19:51 AM
But in the War of Roses the issue was contempt. If the husband was supportive and helpful with her business, it could have gone the other way or at least get neutral. He looked down on her. And so everything he did annoyed her to no end eventually. There is an amazing scene there as I recall, when she gives him her business contract, he doesn't even look at it and he swaps a fly with it. LOL He constantly brushes her off and makes her feel as good for nothing.
That's a traditional thing about marriages and women's place generally, isn't it? Isn't that the whole thing. Nobody -including women- considers taking care of a home or children as a real job or success while it is a thankless, hard job.
Women are a bit self conscious. They assume that men despise them (projection). Most of the time men don't think like .. "what does person X think of me"? We are pretty unselfconscious. In fact women despise themselves and each other, because the perfection they think is required. Are you are projecting your own hatred of traditional roles? Fact is, women do a lot, even a homemaker with no children to care for (and that is under modern conditions). Unfortunately prestige (social cache) comes with bringing home money. This and love of power over others has destroyed marriage and family worldwide. That, more than gender specific patriarchy, is destructive. Alpha women are just as much a problem.
My gift to my daughter is to accept her each day as she is that day, and put no expectations on her. To substantially and emotionally support her. Of course some men actually do despise women. My Ex thought I did, but it was about her, not me. Men who despise women are objectifiers ... only self hurting women chase bad boys like that.
Quote from: drunkenshoe on September 29, 2020, 02:33:44 AM
I agree with this. Maybe if he is really good at other things but suck at some others there might be a balance?
I think the most difficult sort of relationship would be between believers and nonbelievers. Or rather between religious and nonbeliever. I don't have that experience but people tell different stuff.
I became a believer because of my young wife, she manifested the good. So it can work out if you are not too set in your ways. Today I am more faithful than her, she is more bitter than me. We all suffer disappointments, but she has taken it badly. Like that "doctor without borders" from Scotland that I met on-line, who had rejected G-d because G-d let his 5 year old daughter die.
I think there is as much variance between non-believers, as there is between believers. Their politics can vary also. For a long time, I let my Ex lead me politically (though we were both liberal when we met). There has to be give and take to avoid inevitable conflicts. Yes, you have to let your guard down, to let some people in. I think drunkenshoe is a remarkable person first, a woman second. But we would probably clash ;-))
Quote from: Baruch on September 29, 2020, 10:14:54 AM
Women are a bit self conscious. They assume that men despise them (projection). Most of the time men don't think like .. "what does person X think of me"? We are pretty unselfconscious. In fact women despise themselves and each other, because the perfection they think is required. Are you are projecting your own hatred of traditional roles? Fact is, women do a lot, even a homemaker with no children to care for (and that is under modern conditions). Unfortunately prestige (social cache) comes with bringing home money. This and love of power over others has destroyed marriage and family worldwide. That, more than gender specific patriarchy, is destructive. Alpha women are just as much a problem.
My gift to my daughter is to accept her each day as she is that day, and put no expectations on her. To substantially and emotionally support her. Of course some men actually do despise women. My Ex thought I did, but it was about her, not me. Men who despise women are objectifiers ... only self hurting women chase bad boys like that.
I don't despise men. They don't despise me. I love men and interestingly enough for some, they love me too. Nobody in my family imposed any traditional female role or any belief on to me. Probably, I'd be a happier person if they had. They're not a modern family, they've just never given a damn what people think and let me and my sister be. So I don't despise myself either. Compared to the standard, being me is very good. Lonely? Yes. I'm very self-conscious, alienating, and alienated but this probably has been going on since I was 3, so while I don't know how to be in an another way, I don't see anything wrong with it. I have certain personality traits that are exhausting. I don't like them. Do you like yours?
I don't care about traditional roles from a personal point of view because I haven't suffered them honestly. I just try to analyse them and their consequences when it comes up through observation and my life experiences. They are mostly not good. In this land, I'm generally concerned with human rights.
I was consciously sheltered from religion from a very young age by my parents and I've become what I am by myself as I go. I live in a secular community. I have known most people around me for more than 20 years. They're used to me. But yes I'm the only nonmarried, childless, nonbeliever female in my community as far as I know. Yet there are many women like me in the Middle East and around the world. It's not even interesting.
Different people. Different experiences. You are the only you, you could be.