I think that most of us are well aware that Christians tend to react very emotionally to any open skepticism expressed about their beliefs, and they are often outraged when we criticize their religion. For example, years ago I had an email exchange with a Christian on AOL. He told me he had seen me in a chat room mocking Christianity. He called me a reprobate and told me that "the smoke of (my) torment will rise forever."
His comments raise the question: how many people are burning in hell for dicking around in an AOL chat room?
Anyway, it's obvious that many hurting Christians are left in the wake of atheism. They depend on their faith for help making it through the tough times. When a loved one dies, for example, they hope to be reunited with her or him in heaven. When they face death, they wish to go on living forever freed from their sick and broken bodies--and so on.
So do we dash their hopes when we falsify their beliefs, and is it wrong to do so?
I don't think we can say much that will impact their faith. They just damn us to burn in hell forever, but we might hurt their feelings by telling them the truth?
Quote from: Jagella on July 29, 2020, 06:01:24 PM
So do we dash their hopes when we falsify their beliefs, and is it wrong to do so?
We have nothing to do with the falsity of their beliefs. They chose to believe a falsehood(s). That's on them. I did not force them to 'believe'. Yet they have no problem in forcing me to accept their beliefs under the lie of religious freedom. I can't get some prescriptions from some pharmacists because it offends their religious beliefs? That's hurting me. I can't have a ham sandwich because it is against somebodies religious beliefs? The religious have no problem whatsoever cramming their believed lies down my throat. If it hurts them to see and understand the truth, then too bad--that's on them!
No. Open constructive criticism hurts no one, except their feelings. The problem is, the question of Christianity isn't just epistemological ... it is theological and ideological. People criticize X for multiple reasons, not just because of epistemology. People have agendas other than clarity. And we know how religion ties into politics and therefore power (Poland/Hungary resisting EU dictates on LBGT).
Quote from: Unbeliever on July 29, 2020, 06:05:56 PMI don't think we can say much that will impact their faith. They just damn us to burn in hell forever, but we might hurt their feelings by telling them the truth?
Yes, it works both ways as far as who is hurting whom is concerned. Christians don't seem to consider how their beliefs hurt others.
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/_gHFdIh-9Thk/SxglI7HHqqI/AAAAAAAAAiA/kaQJtjQF7Zs/s320/Comic.jpg)
Quote from: Mike Cl on July 29, 2020, 06:36:26 PM
We have nothing to do with the falsity of their beliefs. They chose to believe a falsehood(s). That's on them. I did not force them to 'believe'.
True. If Christians can't handle having their beliefs scrutinized, then they should keep those beliefs to themselves.
QuoteYet they have no problem in forcing me to accept their beliefs under the lie of religious freedom.
How are Christian beliefs being forced on you? I assume you mean Christians use pressure in their efforts to evangelize. Note that they want unbelievers to accept what they say without question.
QuoteI can't get some prescriptions from some pharmacists because it offends their religious beliefs? That's hurting me. I can't have a ham sandwich because it is against somebodies religious beliefs? The religious have no problem whatsoever cramming their believed lies down my throat.
OK, I see what you mean now. I'm not sure about how difficult Jews may make it for us to enjoy pork, but Christians have interfered with health care opposing abortion, contraception, and stem-cell research. Their opposition to evolutionary biology jeopardizes medical research in particular the study of the spread of diseases like Covid 19.
QuoteIf it hurts them to see and understand the truth, then too bad--that's on them!
While it's important for all of us to be informed, Christians have a right to remain in the dark. So if they don't bother us, then we should leave them to their "blissful ignorance." But if they engage others in debate, then they do it at their own risk.
I was well equipped to handle non believers and anything they could say. I was the problem.
Jagella, another aspect to this religious vs non religious, is the attack the religious are making on science. Trump is making it clear he is not allowing science to help attack the covid pandemic. Science vs religion has intensified much to the determent of the world. I do not question a persons right to worship as they wish (as long as that does not harm others). But I do object to the religious telling me how to live, and what to think. I am not as concerned how the religious feel, as how they act. If my simply speaking facts makes them feel bad, then so be it.
Quote from: Jagella on July 29, 2020, 07:03:42 PM
Yes, it works both ways as far as who is hurting whom is concerned. Christians don't seem to consider how their beliefs hurt others.
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Do non-amputees worry about how their public presence hurts the feelings of amputees? Black people hate being in a country that isn't majority Black ... should we expel the majority Whites? Same thing with women, they hate men almost as much as they hate women ;-) I agree with the "no hurt" but I am talking beatings etc, not feelings.
Quote from: Cassia on July 29, 2020, 08:07:28 PM
I was well equipped to handle non believers and anything they could say. I was the problem.
Rhetoric is a two edged weapon. Hope you didn't cut yourself ;-) My Ex, as a formally religiously trained person, sliced and diced some Jehovah's Witnesses that she invited in. They weren't served for dinner ;-) All they knew, like many committed voters, were the slogans they had memorized.
@MikeCL ... vast armies of Creationists marching on California science utopia ... are Fortune Tellers a threat to you too?
Quote from: Cassia on July 29, 2020, 08:07:28 PM
I was well equipped to handle non believers and anything they could say. I was the problem.
When I was a Christian I ran into some tough atheists one of whom was an old man named "Jim." Jim was your stereotypical grumpy old coot. Jim didn't like me, and when he found I was a Christian, he knew he could get under my skin by mocking my faith. He succeeded in hurting me that way, and I felt miserable.
Not too long afterward I did lose my faith in much the same way that Jim had taunted me saying I would. Rather than run and hide, I went up to Jim one day and told him he had been right about Christianity. He was a mean, unlikable old man, but he was a mean old man who had known the truth. It was only right to let him know.
So the moral of the story is that if you or I or anybody else is "the problem," believing dangerous lies, then we should face the truth regardless of who tells us the truth. And that includes grumpy, old atheists like Jim!
(https://www.clipartmax.com/png/middle/270-2708752_old-men-with-crutch-grumpy-old-man-cartoon.png)
I sorta miss being deluded and so happy I was going to heaven to be with family and pets forever. The alternative being maggot food. I would have felt sorry for Jim. Even so, way down deep inside, I was secretly troubled by the greatest story ever told. I was just a kid with so many questions and the answers did not line up. But doubt is OK, normal, expected and dealt with in scripture. At some point I made a positive correlation between religiousness and people I dislike. That is when I turned the corner. Finally...I became receptive to non believers.
The absurdity of people "burning in Hell" should have killed this thread immediately.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on July 30, 2020, 06:46:13 AM
The absurdity of people "burning in Hell" should have killed this thread immediately.
Burning in Portland etc is real, not a myth. America is Hell under the Dem Brownshirts. I am the cranky old theist ;-)
Religious “belief†is far more emotional. People have invested emotion and freely admit to their peers their ferver. Calling it into question is not a matter of whether their religion is right or wrong no matter how much proof we have. We are challenging their emotional ties, calling out that their admittance were wrong, they lied, they have been fooled, taken, scammed. Good luck getting people to admit to that.
Quote from: aitm on July 30, 2020, 10:45:30 AM
Religious “belief†is far more emotional. People have invested emotion and freely admit to their peers their ferver. Calling it into question is not a matter of whether their religion is right or wrong no matter how much proof we have. We are challenging their emotional ties, calling out that their admittance were wrong, they lied, they have been fooled, taken, scammed. Good luck getting people to admit to that.
I remember being in an AOL chat room for the discussion of Christianity. Somebody there requested prayer for a dying relative. I told her or him that prayer would do no good. Immediately afterward that person logged out of that chat room. Assuming that my comment caused that person to leave, the Christians in that room attacked me telling me that I'm "sick." I defended myself explaining that I simply told that person the truth. Prayer would do them no good. Should I have kept silent knowing that time may have been wasted with prayer when the dying person could have received better care?
So it appears that many Christians want us to play along with their game lest we hurt their feelings. In my opinion, if a person does not want to hear the truth, then they should be free to avoid it.
Christians are always free to attack anyone, including other Christians, who make them think about their religion.
Quote from: Jagella on July 30, 2020, 12:18:26 PM
I remember being in an AOL chat room for the discussion of Christianity. Somebody there requested prayer for a dying relative. I told her or him that prayer would do no good. Immediately afterward that person logged out of that chat room. Assuming that my comment caused that person to leave, the Christians in that room attacked me telling me that I'm "sick." I defended myself explaining that I simply told that person the truth. Prayer would do them no good. Should I have kept silent knowing that time may have been wasted with prayer when the dying person could have received better care?
So it appears that many Christians want us to play along with their game lest we hurt their feelings. In my opinion, if a person does not want to hear the truth, then they should be free to avoid it.
Yes, just like a judgmental Christian who would be at a funeral, and tell the assembled that the deceased will be burning in Hell for their sins. I won't invite you to any funeral ;-( Would you invite Lenny Bruce to a children's birthday party?
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on July 30, 2020, 01:03:30 PM
Christians are always free to attack anyone, including other Christians, who make them think about their religion.
Atheists are free to harvest organs in China. Atheists unfortunately are as hypocritical as theists.
Quote from: Cassia on July 29, 2020, 08:07:28 PM
I was well equipped to handle non believers and anything they could say. I was the problem.
We have met the enemy, and he is us?
Quote from: Baruch on July 30, 2020, 01:06:55 PM
Yes, just like a judgmental Christian who would be at a funeral, and tell the assembled that the deceased will be burning in Hell for their sins. I won't invite you to any funeral ;-( Would you invite Lenny Bruce to a children's birthday party?
I'd invite him to a bris...
If an xtian reacts emotionally to you questioning their claims due to their faith, just tell them that they should consider you a "test of faith" which means you're basically a gift from god to them.
Quote from: Unbeliever on July 30, 2020, 06:20:46 PM
I'd invite him to a bris...
You like watching a Rabbi staunch some infantile bleeding?
Quote from: PickelledEggs on July 30, 2020, 06:48:38 PM
If an xtian reacts emotionally to you questioning their claims due to their faith, just tell them that they should consider you a "test of faith" which means you're basically a gift from god to them.
While I agree with your logic, most Christians do not want their faith tested. They hate to have their faith tested knowing that it will fail the test. That's why Deuteronomy 6:16 tells us:
QuoteDo not put the Lord your God to the test...
"God" will fail any test put to him. A made-up God cannot pass a test. Understanding this fact, his creators prohibited testing him.
All this grumbling on the part of Christians against those of us who express skepticism regarding their faith violates what Jesus reputedly commanded. They need to read Matthew 5:11-12 which states:
QuoteBlessed are you when people revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven...
I see little rejoicing on the part of Christians who feel they are being reviled on Jesus' account. Maybe they're not too sure about that promised reward in heaven.
Middle Class people expect to be rewarded for their virtue signaling (while driving past the ghetto without stopping). Middle Class religious people are hypocrites.
If you haven't lived with monks/nuns ... you haven't met real Christians. If you haven't lived with Ultra-Orthodox Jews in Mea Shearim, you haven met real Jews. Clergy usually aren't the real thing either. Most people lead shallow egotistical lives.
Quote from: Baruch on July 31, 2020, 10:44:30 AM
Middle Class people expect to be rewarded for their virtue signaling (while driving past the ghetto without stopping). Middle Class religious people are hypocrites.
It's better if they are hypocrites. The sincere believers are the people who worry me the most.
QuoteIf you haven't lived with monks/nuns ... you haven't met real Christians. If you haven't lived with Ultra-Orthodox Jews in Mea Shearim, you haven met real Jews.
Do you prefer these "true believers" over the hypocrites? Again, I prefer hypocrites; they have enough sense not to believe the nonsense.
QuoteClergy usually aren't the real thing either. Most people lead shallow egotistical lives.
We all have things about us that we would prefer to keep private. Atheism might be one of those things.
When you question the belief of any zealot of any ideology, you question how they see and understand the world, and their way of life.
It must be very hard for any person to doubt what they believe so far is wrong.
Quote from: SoldierofFortune on July 31, 2020, 08:11:59 PM
When you question the belief of any zealot of any ideology, you question how they see and understand the world, and their way of life.
It must be very hard for any person to doubt what they believe so far is wrong.
True. But how is one supposed to change a belief unless somebody points out the errors in those beliefs? For 40+ years I was a juvenile hall teacher. I learned that I never knew when something I said or did would register on the mind of one of my students. It could take 10 minutes, 10 hours, 10 days, 10 months, 10 years, or decades--or never. I just never knew. But that did not stop me trying to make even a tiny difference. I was met in Costco by one of the workers there, he said, 'Mr. Mike you don't remember me do you?' I asked him his name and he told me--I then told him I did remember him, but he has grown in the last 10 years. He had dropped out of the gang life, gotten married, had a child and was working steady at Costco. He thanked me for my teaching--and I thanked him for making a real life for himself. You just never know--so don't stop trying.
To be honest, I don't care to change what people think or believe.
Man, we are living in the post-truth era. It's what political theorists name it. They have systemized the requirements of this era.
Bad school education is one of the part of this world system. People just do not have adequate education to inquire and examine their world view.
Man, they even do not have any world view.
For any person who works for Costco, he is struggling to survive in this economy... They don't have time or want or need to inquire what is going on in the world.
I suppose there was one thing left to blame on atheists and this is it. Atheism can't spread because of atheists.
Nobody forces religious people to question their faith, their religions. There are no atheist groups going door to door imposing their world vision on to religious people. Nobody can do that to a person. They do it to themselves or not. If we could prevent them brainwashing people from childhood, it would be natural-neutral position everywhere but we should be considerate about their feelings. But then you can't brainwash someone into atheism because it is not a religion where people get together in some places, hold hands singing songs feeling entitled to everything by birth and feel superior and good about themselves. Atheism is not some institution you can make tax free money either. You can't trick or lure people into it.
Atheists are various different kind of people with lack of belief in any deities or gods. Most atheists don't give a fuck about religious discussions, they don't even engage in any of it in their entire lives. Not to mention a huge amount of atheists in the world live in countries where this is a life threatening issue, if not directly, in many different ways.
There are no places on this planet with secular culture, administrated by a real secular system where any kind of religious groups are forced to do anything against their life style by secular or atheist groups.
There are no atheists or secular groups going on rallies and so called protests, or kill people; commiting terrorist acts claiming religous people SHOULD have abortions, they SHOULD stop praying and visiting their sacred places, they SHOULD have perimarital sex, they SHOULD have sex with many other genders, they SHOULD consume alcoholic beverages, start eating unkosher or wear certain kinds of clothes, listen to this kind of music and watch these kinds of shows AND live their lives in a specific style otherwise they are an open threat to their existence. Not to mention you can't stuff atheists in black and white groups who would defend or oppose any of the above.
On the other hand, there are many religous groups and countless religious individuals everywhere around the world that use some kind of means -from toxic attitude/verbal abuse to terrorism, genocide- to force people to live how they believe people should live; have sex, eat and drink, get dressed...etc.
There are countless individuals and groups that think it is a very normal thing, more a 'duty' to go knocking somebody's door, shout at them in street, abuse them in school or work places to impose their belief on them; tell people how to live; 'warn' them how they are going to burn in hell and get tortured for anything they are doing. And then some other who actually torture and kill people.
You can stuff these religious groups and individuals in black and white groups because anyone who lives their faith by themselves and refuse to impose anything on others would be included in the secular group, support a secular system of governance in the first place. They're secular by definition. So this is not just about extremism, is it?
But atheists should be careful about hurting believers' emotions in case they would turn from 'the path' to atheism? Why? Because it is sooo hard to see they're not the most sepcial, precious beings in the universe dropped from the sky to some earth where everything is made for them only.
Fuck their emotions with a barbwire.
Quote from: Cassia on July 29, 2020, 08:07:28 PM
I was well equipped to handle non believers and anything they could say. I was the problem.
What do you mean by 'handling' nonbelievers?
We have had so many different kinds of believers in this forum from anywhere around the world -I only know the last decade, you could ask aitm about the previous one- and I assure you they all thought the exact same thing about themselves while most of the points made to them just flew over their heads.
Or you mean something very different by all that and I misunderstood?
Totalitarian governments spread ideology. If their ideology includes atheism, then that gets spread too. Don't blame germs for illness, it is the weak humans who are to blame. No, individual atheists aren't a threat, because most individuals are not a threat. Human groups/human organizations are the threat.
Quote from: Jagella on July 31, 2020, 09:08:10 AM
While I agree with your logic, most Christians do not want their faith tested. They hate to have their faith tested knowing that it will fail the test.
Not my problem. While I don't care if an xtian is an xtian, I also don't want their bullshit interfering with my life.
It's not my problem that their faith relies on stubbornly denying things that are right in front of them. They can double down on their own bullshit if they so please, but just because they have a fragile ego doesn't give them the right to stomp on my free speech.
I don't criticize people who are religious for the same reasons I don't criticize people who use substances. If someone wants to smoke a joint or say a prayer to feel better, if they go to a bar or a church to feel part of a community, if they seek meaning and insight in ancient rituals or psychedelic trips, that's their choice. Unless I'm directly affected by their behavior or invited to comment, other people's coping strategies are none of my business.
Quote from: drunkenshoe on August 01, 2020, 07:05:20 AM
What do you mean by 'handling' nonbelievers?
We have had so many different kinds of believers in this forum from anywhere around the world -I only know the last decade, you could ask aitm about the previous one- and I assure you they all thought the exact same thing about themselves while most of the points made to them just flew over their heads.
Or you mean something very different by all that and I misunderstood?
Meaning as an indoctrinated Christian I was trained to debate atheists and deal with episodes of self doubt and loss of faith. There are many bible stories to teach you to what to do. Stories of Christians being tortured and remaining faithful. Stories of traitors to the faith that have become shunned and punished. Stories of atheists and pagans being converted and rewarded. So when a Christian decides to leave, we are very, very sure about it. The cost is high if you are wrong. Fortunately after years and years... I am still 100% certain that Christianity and all the other brands of faith are not the truth.
Cassia joins Pontius Pilatus "what is the truth?" ... is it 2+2=4? Socialists deny this, their faith is in Karl Marx. I know Cassia believes in inflatable dollars.
"WOKE LEFTISTS STARTS ARGUING 2+2=5 IN LITERAL 1984 ORWELLIAN MOVE" ... arithmetic is racist
Quote from: Cassia on August 03, 2020, 04:48:18 PM
Meaning as an indoctrinated Christian I was trained to debate atheists and deal with episodes of self doubt and loss of faith.
You mean "...as long as they follow the script."
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on August 04, 2020, 07:38:33 AM
You mean "...as long as they follow the script."
Only crisis actors follow a script (see BLM and AntiFa).
R.I.P. George Floyn...
He is a democracy martry.
Quote from: SoldierofFortune on August 06, 2020, 12:36:12 PM
R.I.P. George Floyn...
He is a democracy martry.
Floyd? Yes, all criminals are patriots ;-)
Quote from: PickelledEggs on August 03, 2020, 10:05:54 AM
Not my problem. While I don't care if an xtian is an xtian, I also don't want their bullshit interfering with my life.
It's not my problem that their faith relies on stubbornly denying things that are right in front of them. They can double down on their own bullshit if they so please, but just because they have a fragile ego doesn't give them the right to stomp on my free speech.
Well said! You are correct that Christian "bullshit" does interfere with the lives of those of us who are too sensible to believe what they claim. That said, it's generally a good idea to be sensitive to what gets other people upset. For example, if you know somebody grieving over the death of a loved one, I hope you agree with me that it's not a good idea to tell that person that the deceased is "rotting in the ground." You can insist you have the right to say that, but saying it will needlessly hurt the grieving.
So I think yes, we have the right to express our doubts regarding religion. But like exercising any other right, there are times we should forego exercising that right to "keep the peace." It seems best to me to only express doubt about religion when doing so will do more good than harm.