https://www.huffpost.com/entry/white-supremacy-christianity-robert-jones_n_5f19f5abc5b6296fbf3fc4f8
I just stumbled upon this story. I am unfamiliar with Robert P. Jones, his organization,The Public Religion Research Institute, nor his soon to be released book: White Too Long: The Legacy of White Supremacy in American Christianity. But not for long, I have to do some research.
But what little bit I read in the above article makes sense. I have long been aware of the systematic racism inherent in our society. That racism has been a part of American Christianity from the get go makes sense. It also is (possibly) another reason the christians have loved the orange monster from the start. He gives voice to the foundational racism that is inherent in the very fabric of American christianity; and he allows them to voice those thoughts openly. Yes, I can understand that 50% for all American christians don't even think about where their racism comes from but embrace it openly now. I have to think about this more.
Yes, in pre-Civil War US the churches were in opposition. And such churches as Methodist and Presbyterian did split over the war. Not all Northern churches were abolitionist, but they were uncomfortable with slavery. The Southern churches defended the Southern upper class (as most Southerners were too poor to afford slaves), because that from whom the tithe came. The Southern Baptist church was formed in 1845, because of opposition to slavery by Northern Baptists.
Uniquely to the Southern churches, they explained "blackness" as descent from Cain.
Otherwise, Christianity has been no more or less supporting of slavery than any other religion prior to 1800. The biggest opposition to slavery came from the British Empire. The colony of Georgia was founded as anti-slavery, and continued that way until 1785. English common law was always resistant to slavery, but turned a blind eye until the process of abolition from 1807-1843. The Quakers were early opponents of slavery 100 years earlier, and continued to oppose. The Anglican Methodists under John Wesley also opposed. Then under William Wilberforce, an Evangelical Christian, a committee was formed for the abolishment of slavery, that produced the eventual abolition. After that other churches in Britain joined in. From 1839 efforts were made throughout the British Empire and beyond, to abolish the slave trade. This created a diplomatic conundrum regarding the importation of cotton from the US. British armed forces continued to suppress the slave trade everywhere it could, treating it as piracy and banditry.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_abolition_of_slavery_and_serfdom
Young Winston Churchill fought in the Sudan in 1898, as part of the international effort to suppress the slave trade. Wherever British power extended in Africa, the Middle East or concerning certain traditions in India, the British suppressed them.
I don't know if Christianity is the cause of racism, but I don't think it's a coincidence that the most dogmatic of Christians are also the most racist. Both Christians and racists employ dogmatic thinking patterns that are resistant to change. Both are certain they are right, and not only will not change their minds based on evidence, but also take personal offense if you tell them they're wrong. Both like to play the victim card while actively oppressing other groups.
Quote from: Blackleaf on July 27, 2020, 06:02:00 PM
I don't know if Christianity is the cause of racism, but I don't think it's a coincidence that the most dogmatic of Christians are also the most racist. Both Christians and racists employ dogmatic thinking patterns that are resistant to change. Both are certain they are right, and not only will not change their minds based on evidence, but also take personal offense if you tell them they're wrong. Both like to play the victim card while actively oppressing other groups.
That may be true of Southern Baptists, but isn't true of Amish. I think the Amish are much more Christian than Southern Baptists could ever be.
For some people, all people are White, all White people are Americans, all Americans are Southerners, all Southerners are Baptists. But that fails because of the existence of the AME "Black" church.
Q: What is a word that starts with 'N' and ends in 'R' that a Southern Baptist White Christian never wants to call a black person?
Ans: Neighbor
I want all NYC people to die, also all Californicators to die ... they are so evil, their destruction isn't just a good, it is mandatory (sarc). Hate is a virtue.
Quote from: Mike Cl on July 26, 2020, 08:29:43 PM
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/white-supremacy-christianity-robert-jones_n_5f19f5abc5b6296fbf3fc4f8
I just stumbled upon this story. I am unfamiliar with Robert P. Jones, his organization,The Public Religion Research Institute, nor his soon to be released book: White Too Long: The Legacy of White Supremacy in American Christianity. But not for long, I have to do some research.
But what little bit I read in the above article makes sense. I have long been aware of the systematic racism inherent in our society. That racism has been a part of American Christianity from the get go makes sense. It also is (possibly) another reason the christians have loved the orange monster from the start. He gives voice to the foundational racism that is inherent in the very fabric of American christianity; and he allows them to voice those thoughts openly. Yes, I can understand that 50% for all American christians don't even think about where their racism comes from but embrace it openly now. I have to think about this more.
To be fair, I've seen racism in atheists as well as Christians, but it does seem that racism is very prevalent in Christianity. Christianity and slavery nestled next to each other for centuries with nary a whimper of discomfort. I'm guessing that the Bible's way of dividing people into "the good" and "the bad" has something to do with it. That way it's easy to see whites as "the good" and blacks as "the bad" or vice-versa.
Quote from: Blackleaf on July 27, 2020, 06:02:00 PM
I don't know if Christianity is the cause of racism, but I don't think it's a coincidence that the most dogmatic of Christians are also the most racist. Both Christians and racists employ dogmatic thinking patterns that are resistant to change. Both are certain they are right, and not only will not change their minds based on evidence, but also take personal offense if you tell them they're wrong. Both like to play the victim card while actively oppressing other groups.
You just described my Christian sister. She's maybe the most hate-filled, bigoted, racist person I have ever known. In addition to blacks, she said she hated the disabled, heavy people, gays, and even scientists. She seemed to actually enjoy being hateful.
Oh, and she told me that she's praying for me to become a Christian. I don't know if she's still praying for me, though, because she disowned me years ago when I tried to tell my nephew that she abused me because I'm disabled. Her abuse included her telling me that I'm going to burn in hell.
Quote from: Jagella on July 27, 2020, 10:36:05 PM
To be fair, I've seen racism in atheists as well as Christians, but it does seem that racism is very prevalent in Christianity. Christianity and slavery nestled next to each other for centuries with nary a whimper of discomfort. I'm guessing that the Bible's way of dividing people into "the good" and "the bad" has something to do with it. That way it's easy to see whites as "the good" and blacks as "the bad" or vice-versa.
Atheists are racist--well, some are. Racism has no boundaries. It is everywhere, and in every ethnic group (since races don't actually exist) and probably every when as well. It's just that christianity has made a 'science' of it. :)
All of them are based on racism. Isn't that the whole logic? Buddhist societies have a cast system in itself, Muslims have a slavery system based on 'spoils' of war... There are no boundries.
My Baptist grandmother was illogical, delusional, and uneducated, and she did a lot of psychological damage to me, but I would describe her as loving. Later in life, I met one of the other kind of Baptists, a woman not unlike my grandmother, but who delighted in the inevitable misery of sinners, and she had an impact that set the stage for my atheism. There was no logic in this part of my transition. I was still young and depended on emotional reactions as a guide. She didn't turn me into an atheist exactly. I still considered myself a Christian, but I realized how despicable Christianity could be, and it helped me disassociate myself from the cult. I may have actually pioneered part of the new age religious movement. I had to find something better than Christianity and still believe in some kind of god, I guess to avoid the eternal flames.
This vicious woman also appointed herself as the final authority on sinner identification. In all my memories of her, what stands out is her ability to produce a facial expression of joy and hatred at the same time. I'd never been aware of that in anyone else, well at least not that obviously blatant. That expression would surface when she would describe the suffering of non-believers burning in the flames of Hell. She relished it. Later, I was explaining her attitude to a guy that went to her church. He told me that he and other members told her she was simply wrong in her attitude toward others. Of course, there wasn't any logic in that either. He was every bit as dopey as she was, but just kinder.
I would suggest that racism, is a by-product of evolution. At its simplest, early tribes were wary, and rightfully so, of outsiders, those of different tribes and certainly those of different color. Not so much due to color but they were easier to identify as outsiders. This distrust and fear was based on the reailty that outsiders were in fact, dangerous.
Religion didn’t invent racism as much as it agreed with the thought that those of different religions were also outsiders and therefore someone to be cautious of.
Children are not born racist as we still see, they have to be taught that, and it’s a difficult belief to learn to abandon without direct interaction with those different and having the positive feedback that disposes of irrational racist beliefs.
No doubt some of the later hatred born racism most likely came from the crusades and fighting with people of darker color, surely this distrust had been passed along and embedded in cultural ideology.
Our early explorers of the 13,14, and 15 centuries were quite unkind in their assessment of natives they found, due to their relatively “uncivilized†society, never fully understanding their own history of the same.
History has shown that in many societies, people of different tribes were not even considered humans. The American Indians frequently referred to themselves as humans (or their phrase meaning as much) but other tribes were little more than animals.
When slaves came to America the larger populace had never even seen a black person, so when they were called any number of derogatory words or regarded simply as animals why would they know better?
Thus started the systemic integration of association of black people as not being really humans and certainly not worthy of consideration, respect of concern.
The eventual racial hatred that is prevalent now, is not so much religious in its root but ethnocentric in that “we†are better than “them†and “they†should not and cannot have rights like “usâ€. Not much different than say 200,000 years ago.
The justification for the church to get involved was not from the “intent†of the babble, but of religious leaders who agreed with the racist ideology to find further justification from their book and to actively seek it out and proclaim it as righteous.
Racism today, in my opinion, is still not so much that they are black (or any other color) as much as it remains that “we†are better than “themâ€, and need to remain that way.
The idea that our culture, our ideology, our way of life is superior is an evolutionary response to an outside threat.
The only way to eventually beat it, lay in the hands of our children and how and what they are taught. Every year, every generation we gain more kids less susceptible to racism because as we have become more accustomed to our “neighborsâ€, as we interact with them, live with them, marry them that distrust and concern is replaced with the realization that “they†are just like “usâ€.
I had hoped that by now we would have been further along, but god damn, Trump gave racist everywhere a proverbial shot of cocaine and juiced those fuckers up. We may lose another 3 generations due to this.
Our early explorers of the 13,14, and 15 centuries were quite unkind in their assessment of natives they found, due to their relatively “uncivilized†society, never fully understanding their own history of the same.
That is indeed a very insightful statement. I had never thought of it that way. :iagree:
Quote from: Jagella on July 27, 2020, 10:36:05 PM
To be fair, I've seen racism in atheists as well as Christians, but it does seem that racism is very prevalent in Christianity. Christianity and slavery nestled next to each other for centuries with nary a whimper of discomfort. I'm guessing that the Bible's way of dividing people into "the good" and "the bad" has something to do with it. That way it's easy to see whites as "the good" and blacks as "the bad" or vice-versa.
Jesus said the poor will always be with us. Apostle Paul never called out for freeing the slaves, neither did Emperor Constantine. This is why we must ban all history, because this generation is so virtuous ;-) Secular Protestants whipping up the witch trials.
There are many thousand young girls in the US forced into prostitution. Is this not slavery? Are you saying that if the majority of a country are Christian, and they have under-age prostitution, that Christianity supports slavery?
Quote from: Jagella on July 27, 2020, 10:47:38 PM
You just described my Christian sister. She's maybe the most hate-filled, bigoted, racist person I have ever known. In addition to blacks, she said she hated the disabled, heavy people, gays, and even scientists. She seemed to actually enjoy being hateful.
Oh, and she told me that she's praying for me to become a Christian. I don't know if she's still praying for me, though, because she disowned me years ago when I tried to tell my nephew that she abused me because I'm disabled. Her abuse included her telling me that I'm going to burn in hell.
So your problem, like so many, is family related? Sorry to hear. But does that scale to a whole religion?
Quote from: drunkenshoe on July 28, 2020, 04:28:18 AM
All of them are based on racism. Isn't that the whole logic? Buddhist societies have a cast system in itself, Muslims have a slavery system based on 'spoils' of war... There are no boundries.
Atheists have their gulags.
@aitm ... 15th, 16th, 17th centuries for New World exploration. Two million Europeans were kidnapped by the Barbary Pirates over a 300 year period.
Quote from: SGOS on July 28, 2020, 07:03:14 AM
My Baptist grandmother was illogical, delusional, and uneducated, and she did a lot of psychological damage to me, but I would describe her as loving. Later in life, I met one of the other kind of Baptists, a woman not unlike my grandmother, but who delighted in the inevitable misery of sinners, and she had an impact that set the stage for my atheism. There was no logic in this part of my transition. I was still young and depended on emotional reactions as a guide. She didn't turn me into an atheist exactly. I still considered myself a Christian, but I realized how despicable Christianity could be, and it helped me disassociate myself from the cult. I may have actually pioneered part of the new age religious movement. I had to find something better than Christianity and still believe in some kind of god, I guess to avoid the eternal flames.
This vicious woman also appointed herself as the final authority on sinner identification. In all my memories of her, what stands out is her ability to produce a facial expression of joy and hatred at the same time. I'd never been aware of that in anyone else, well at least not that obviously blatant. That expression would surface when she would describe the suffering of non-believers burning in the flames of Hell. She relished it. Later, I was explaining her attitude to a guy that went to her church. He told me that he and other members told her she was simply wrong in her attitude toward others. Of course, there wasn't any logic in that either. He was every bit as dopey as she was, but just kinder.
Aren't people here the political equivalent? Damning people at election time?
Quote from: Baruch on July 28, 2020, 10:52:47 AMThere are many thousand young girls in the US forced into prostitution. Is this not slavery? Are you saying that if the majority of a country are Christian, and they have under-age prostitution, that Christianity supports slavery?
I suppose anybody forced to labor like the prostitutes you mentioned are slaves of a sort.
I don't think I'd blame Christianity for "supporting" the forced prostitution of those poor girls, though, but we should look into the matter. Since Christianity is so prevalent in our society most people saying they derive their morals from it, it's important to ask why we have so much crime and if that crime is somehow rooted in Christianity.
Quote from: Baruch on July 28, 2020, 10:54:21 AM
So your problem, like so many, is family related? Sorry to hear. But does that scale to a whole religion?
I think those experiences might "scale to a whole religion." If many other people are having problems with Christian relatives, then yes, Christianity may well be at the root of the problems I described in my family.
Well, certainly the bible was used to justify slavery in America -- the Curse of Ham (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curse_of_Ham#American/European_slavery,_seventeenth_and_eighteenth_centuries) or the Mark of Cain (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curse_and_mark_of_Cain#American_Protestant_racial_beliefs_on_the_Mark_of_Cain) and all that, even though the biblical text makes no mention of skin coloration. The Mormons held to that until 1978 as their excuse to exclude Blacks from the Mormon priesthood; the Southern Baptist Convention didn't formally denounce racism and their role in supporting slavery until 1995.
And on the flip side, many leading abolitionists based their opposition to slavery on biblical teachings. Which only really says that the bible says what you want it to say and hasn't any real meaning of its own.
That said, religion historically encourages an "us vs them" mindset, which is the first step towards prejudice and racism. The number of wars over the last two millennia that didn't have a religious component is very small indeed -- religion is necessarily a philosophy of division where the adherents are "elect" and non-believers are at best "misguided" and usually worse. And that's exactly the kind of mentality that almost necessarily leads to some form of institutionalized prejudice, be it racial or otherwise.
Religion, at its core, is designed to divide.
Quote from: trdsf on August 02, 2020, 08:04:49 PMThat said, religion historically encourages an "us vs them" mindset, which is the first step towards prejudice and racism. The number of wars over the last two millennia that didn't have a religious component is very small indeed -- religion is necessarily a philosophy of division where the adherents are "elect" and non-believers are at best "misguided" and usually worse. And that's exactly the kind of mentality that almost necessarily leads to some form of institutionalized prejudice, be it racial or otherwise.
Religion, at its core, is designed to divide.
Imo, the original purpose of religion was to aid in establishing the first civilizations, deliberately trying to create a shared culture and regulate behavior. (Spoiler: it kinda got away from them) The problem is that in-group favorability unavoidably breeds out-group hostility, which can manifest as racism.
Humans use ready labels to determine potential enemies. In particular, if you don't speak my language, or don't look like me.