Atheistforums.com

Humanities Section => Philosophy & Rhetoric General Discussion => Topic started by: Baruch on July 19, 2020, 07:57:40 PM

Title: Why is Leftism a faillure even when it wins?
Post by: Baruch on July 19, 2020, 07:57:40 PM
Because it is the result of perpetually unhappy people, who can never be satisfied!  Group hatred can only be ended by suicide ;-(

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LO8T1gXczSE

Take over the ivory tower (not worth much), win few elections (they are elite fakes), destroy a few countries (Soviet Union) … but the perpetually puritanical unhappy people will turn on it.  As Robespierre found out I am unhappy, and it is someone else's fault (which eventually he was the target, not the targetee)!
Title: Re: Why is Leftism a faillure even when it wins?
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on July 20, 2020, 07:32:11 AM
I'm sure that's how things are on your planet.
Title: Re: Why is Leftism a faillure even when it wins?
Post by: Baruch on July 20, 2020, 09:16:48 AM
I'm sure that's how things are on your planet.

I don't live with the Clinton-billies ;-)
Title: Re: Why is Leftism a faillure even when it wins?
Post by: GSOgymrat on July 22, 2020, 07:24:33 AM
Why Leftism is a failure even when it wins? Because it is the result of perpetually unhappy people, who can never be satisfied!

Politically active people, regardless of orientation, are dissatisfied. Contented people and apathetic people are not motivated to protest or work toward change. Progressive people are perpetually discontent because they are future oriented and focused not only one their own wellbeing but the wellbeing of others. Progressivism states the world must be constantly improved, to not do so is to accept inequity and injustice. I don't consider myself progressive.

I didn't really care for the video. It used far too many generalizations and stereotypes for my taste. As far as rants on contemporary society, I prefer this:


How to destroy civilization in 10 easy steps by Peter Boghossian

1) Claim that science, reason, and rationality are tools of oppression.

2) Focus on equality of outcome at the expense of equality of opportunity.

3) Teach a generation of students that being offended by certain *ideas* makes them better people.

4) “Decolonize” curricula by switching from robust epistemologies (scientific method) to radically subjective ones (autoethnography). Simultaneously, claim that anyone who has a problem with this isn’t merely mistaken but is a terrible person.

5) Sanction and shame people who have conversations across political and moral divides. Guilt by association is a particularly good enforcement mechanism.

6) Promote cultural, moral, and epistemological relativism. In other words, advance the notion that there’s no way to make independent judgments about cultural practices, moral codes, and ways of knowing.

7) Create and legally enforce blasphemy laws. This will be most effective if certain ideas are made sacred and thus immune from criticism. Bonus: Equate criticisms of ideas with criticisms of immutable properties of people.

8) Advance the narrative that what people can know is limited to exogenous, immutable characteristics, like skin color or gender.

9) Deny people healthcare based upon their income.

10) Do not provide a public education of the first rate for every citizen.
Title: Re: Why is Leftism a faillure even when it wins?
Post by: Baruch on July 22, 2020, 09:20:20 AM
Things can be improved.  One day at a time, one person at a time.  The lie and delusion is "you can improve everything at once, if you support our political party".

In many respects, even the French Revolution was a failure, they had Napoleon to put it down.  The American Revolution was also a failure, not just because of slavery.  Even if there were no slaves, there were plenty of Indians to kill.  Even if there were no Indians, the New Englanders and the Carolinas had nothing in common.  1865 was a new country.  This is long in the tooth, doomed to fail soon.  When Blacks support the Democrats, and destroy statues to Lincoln, Black Regiment, Frederick Douglas … absurdity has taken over.  Only a civil war, with a bloodied new US, can restart this failed experiment once again.
Title: Re: Why is Leftism a faillure even when it wins?
Post by: GSOgymrat on July 22, 2020, 09:47:09 AM
Things can be improved.  One day at a time, one person at a time.  The lie and delusion is "you can improve everything at once, if you support our political party".

Technologies have improved very quickly but the ability of people to organize themselves in sustainable societies that meet the needs of all their members is proving difficult. The human experience itself hasn't changed in thousands of years. We still spend our days wondering what's for dinner. This is why I believe if someone is dissatisfied it's easier to change one's behavior and relationship to the world than attempting to change the world itself. If you truly change how you interact with others, they will change how they interact with you, and slowly the world changes. "Be the change you wish to see in the world" is hackneyed but I do believe it's true.
Title: Re: Why is Leftism a faillure even when it wins?
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on July 22, 2020, 11:48:06 AM
When someone can't even spell "failure" I have no desire to see what they're babbling about.
Title: Re: Why is Leftism a faillure even when it wins?
Post by: Baruch on July 22, 2020, 07:49:17 PM
When someone can't even spell "failure" I have no desire to see what they're babbling about.

Careful shaving with that titanium katana, you might end up looking like another suicide connected to Hillary ;-)
Title: Re: Why is Leftism a faillure even when it wins?
Post by: Rogue on July 23, 2020, 11:34:08 AM
Because it is the result of perpetually unhappy people, who can never be satisfied!  Group hatred can only be ended by suicide ;-(


Take over the ivory tower (not worth much), win few elections (they are elite fakes), destroy a few countries (Soviet Union) … but the perpetually puritanical unhappy people will turn on it.  As Robespierre found out I am unhappy, and it is someone else's fault (which eventually he was the target, not the targetee)!

I am not persuaded. I found the video lacking ethos and logos. That makes it an appeal to emotion fallacy.



Title: Re: Why is Leftism a faillure even when it wins?
Post by: Sal1981 on July 23, 2020, 01:28:28 PM
The more I watch Vaush, the more I'm convinced that right-wingers are emotionally stunted children incapable of rational discourse and inevitably fall back to emotional "reasoning". When all you have is ideology, reality becomes a problem.
Title: Re: Why is Leftism a faillure even when it wins?
Post by: Baruch on July 23, 2020, 05:27:13 PM
Sorry, while humans are a confused primate species, it is bigotry to take them to task for that ;-)

Billions of humans, all mentally and emotionally confused.  Competing for resources and attention.  Bedlam boys!
Title: Re: Why is Leftism a faillure even when it wins?
Post by: Rogue on July 24, 2020, 10:03:53 AM
Sorry, while humans are a confused primate species, it is bigotry to take them to task for that ;-)

I do declare, I am interested in your premises honey.

Title: Re: Why is Leftism a faillure even when it wins?
Post by: Baruch on July 24, 2020, 10:17:34 AM
I do declare, I am interested in your premises honey.

Honey!  Who is Poo Bear!? (aka John Galt)

Human beings are primates.  It is wrong to expect too much of them, given that cats and dogs are clearly more intelligent (grifters).
Title: Re: Why is Leftism a faillure even when it wins?
Post by: Jason Harvestdancer on July 25, 2020, 08:48:49 AM
Some political ideologies are created for the people you want, not the people you have.
Title: Re: Why is Leftism a faillure even when it wins?
Post by: Sal1981 on July 25, 2020, 02:43:06 PM
Why not both?
Title: Re: Why is Leftism a faillure even when it wins?
Post by: Baruch on July 25, 2020, 06:48:55 PM
Why not both?

Idiots love their ideologies.
Title: Re: Why is Leftism a faillure even when it wins?
Post by: Rogue on July 26, 2020, 06:02:01 AM
Honey!  Who is Poo Bear!? (aka John Galt)

Human beings are primates.  It is wrong to expect too much of them, given that cats and dogs are clearly more intelligent (grifters).

Fictional character, bless your heart. Atlas Shrugged was a stupid movie. Are ya a nut picker? Do ya take the fringe ideology and apply that to all people on the left?



What is too much? Wow. So much for accountability huh? Better pass out that free stuff and defund the police.
Title: Re: Why is Leftism a faillure even when it wins?
Post by: Sal1981 on July 26, 2020, 06:19:30 AM
Idiots love their ideologies.
Well, if they're incapable of separating ideas from their heads, let them have their ideologies.
Title: Re: Why is Leftism a faillure even when it wins?
Post by: Baruch on July 26, 2020, 11:39:13 AM
Fictional character, bless your heart. Atlas Shrugged was a stupid movie. Are ya a nut picker? Do ya take the fringe ideology and apply that to all people on the left?



What is too much? Wow. So much for accountability huh? Better pass out that free stuff and defund the police.

What is the Left?  Are married gays in favor of Comet Pizza?  Didn't think so.  Accountability happens with elections (assuming no illegal offense).  But the Left views the law as only for their opponents (same as Islamists destroying infidels), they are Freedom Fighters, the law doesn't apply to them.

Which novel have you written?  So easy as an anarchist to cancel everyone and burn everything down.  Sociopathy isn't a political agenda.
Title: Re: Why is Leftism a faillure even when it wins?
Post by: Rogue on July 27, 2020, 09:38:28 AM
What is the Left?  Are married gays in favor of Comet Pizza?  Didn't think so.  Accountability happens with elections (assuming no illegal offense).  But the Left views the law as only for their opponents (same as Islamists destroying infidels), they are Freedom Fighters, the law doesn't apply to them.

Which novel have you written?  So easy as an anarchist to cancel everyone and burn everything down.  Sociopathy isn't a political agenda.

The left is a spectrum that ranges from moderate to fringe. It cannot be summed up like you are trying to do. To me, the biggest discrepancy between right and left is how to use our government, especially federal. Try opening a nation with no rules.

I don't have to write a novel to critique one boo bear. I'm certainly not going to summarize the right based on the KKK.

You have not demonstrated sociopathy on the left. What a far fetched idea that is. You need true premises to even begin to try to have a valid conclusion. You seem to jump straight to conclusions. If anything the left has too much empathy, if there is such a thing. :)

I am engaged in the fight against cancel culture because I fight for logic and reason. I see the science denying right to be much more dangerous. Appeals to emotion (the thing you have used so far) is not going to convince me. Take an argument from the left please and debunk it. Universal Healthcare, bottoms up economy, Living wages, Labor rights, I will agree with you on open borders, regulating markets, tiered tax system, Abortion, comprehensive gun control, Ending the war on drugs, patriarchy is bad for women, separation of church and state- for examples.

Can we please go over the arguments and see if they stand up under scrutiny? If I am wrong in my political ambitions, I would like to know it so I can change course like I did when the facts made me reject the validity of theism. What do ya say boo bear?

On a scale of 1-5, one being moderate and 5 being fringe, I consider myself a 3. I could be wrong about that. You tell me. ;)

Title: Re: Why is Leftism a faillure even when it wins?
Post by: Baruch on July 27, 2020, 12:04:10 PM
Fringe is out, so hippie 60s ;-) Got bell-bottoms and Nehru jackets and love beads?
Title: Re: Why is Leftism a faillure even when it wins?
Post by: Rogue on July 28, 2020, 06:42:13 AM
Fringe is out, so hippie 60s ;-) Got bell-bottoms and Nehru jackets and love beads?

Lol. I like to think I am unique. I'm Gen X, the slackers. I grew up on Motley Crue and Madonna lol. Who doesn't have love beads?
Title: Re: Why is Leftism a faillure even when it wins?
Post by: Baruch on July 28, 2020, 11:07:10 AM
Lol. I like to think I am unique. I'm Gen X, the slackers. I grew up on Motley Crue and Madonna lol. Who doesn't have love beads?

Gen X eh?  Well good for y'all.  After the Boomers are guillotined, you folks are next ;-)
Title: Re: Why is Leftism a faillure even when it wins?
Post by: Rogue on July 29, 2020, 08:43:55 AM
Gen X eh?  Well good for y'all.  After the Boomers are guillotined, you folks are next ;-)

You're funny :D We are their parents lol. Boomers are their grandparents. I am fascinated by the generation wars. How can people be so fucked up that they are afraid of their own descendants? A lot of my perspective on things is this- I'm not going to live forever. My generation will die. Why shouldn't I support my son? Do millennials have personal autonomy? One day their children will be grown. Why shouldn't they have some say on the world they leave to their grandchildren?  I want younger generations to surpass mine. Why wouldn't anybody feel this way? I support capitalism because I find it to be a better source of self-determination than Communism. I do believe that regulations and restraints need to be there to decrease, to the largest extent, the amount of exploitation that occurs under capitalism. I do not see how profit-sharing would undermine the essence of capitalism or a free market. It's just a more fair way to pay for labor. I'm not going to play a fiddle for a multi-billion dollar corporation that looses maybe 2% of it's profits. For a small business let them pay hourly and do an apprenticeship until their profits reach a fair point. Employers are the tyrannical dictators. When they can screen your bodily fluids at random, they have gone too far. There is no where to run and hide from it either.

https://qz.com/701895/the-best-companies-in-the-world-are-run-by-enlightened-dictators/
https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2017/7/17/15973478/bosses-dictators-workplace-rights-free-markets-unions

 
Title: Re: Why is Leftism a faillure even when it wins?
Post by: SGOS on July 29, 2020, 09:33:51 AM
I am fascinated by the generation wars. How can people be so fucked up that they are afraid of their own descendants? A lot of my perspective on things is this- I'm not going to live forever. My generation will die. Why shouldn't I support my son? Do millennials have personal autonomy? 
When I first started hearing about generation this and generation that, I thought, "Where have I been?"  I always thought generations were more nebulous, and lasted something like 36 years, and there was actually no actual membership in a generation.  There were just people growing up.

It's not like all the women squirt out kids on January 1st of a particular year, and then don't have kids again until January 1st 36 years later.  Every generation blends with the one before it, and the one after it.  Chronologically, that's just the way it happens.  Every individual is part of what comes before and part of what will come after.

Then some hot shot social worker, or more likely some journalist that didn't have anything to write about decided he should pigeonhole what clearly doesn't lend itself to groups into groups with specific characteristics.  Apparently, he had never considered the Fallacy of Generalization, but humans being bored with life and themselves, took up the banner and chanted, "Look!  We have something do, something to bitch about, and here's to generalizing about everything. Now we can know who is lazy, who is productive, who is depressed, and who isn't worth a shit just by the date they were born."

And this is considered serious shit by some people.  Some of this is just my personal experience.  I've been told about the flaws of the latest generation, whatever they call it I can't remember, but I don't see the same flaws.  I see a group of people whose brains have not yet been corrupted by society, who offer our only hope for the future.  This may be the group with a modicum of sense still left in their heads.  I see hope.  Others see a generation that must be indoctrinated or destroyed or civilization will collapse.
Title: Re: Why is Leftism a faillure even when it wins?
Post by: drunkenshoe on July 29, 2020, 10:11:05 AM
"Slackers." LOL, I like that. It's accurate for defining us.
Title: Re: Why is Leftism a faillure even when it wins?
Post by: Baruch on July 29, 2020, 10:24:34 AM
"Slackers." LOL, I like that. It's accurate for defining us.

Some of you are "skirters" ;-)

@Rogue ... yes, I am funny.  My humor is an acquired taste because I play dirty.  But not as dirty as Lenny Bruce.

@SGOS ... "generations" are marketing inventions, opportunistically taken up by the media and politicians.  Got "Tang"?
Title: Re: Why is Leftism a faillure even when it wins?
Post by: Rogue on July 29, 2020, 10:57:49 AM
When I first started hearing about generation this and generation that, I thought, "Where have I been?"  I always thought generations were more nebulous, and lasted something like 36 years, and there was actually no actual membership in a generation.  There were just people growing up.

It's not like all the women squirt out kids on January 1st of a particular year, and then don't have kids again until January 1st 36 years later.  Every generation blends with the one before it, and the one after it.  Chronologically, that's just the way it happens.  Every individual is part of what comes before and part of what will come after.

Then some hot shot social worker, or more likely some journalist that didn't have anything to write about decided he should pigeonhole what clearly doesn't lend itself to groups into groups with specific characteristics.  Apparently, he had never considered the Fallacy of Generalization, but humans being bored with life and themselves, took up the banner and chanted, "Look!  We have something do, something to bitch about, and here's to generalizing about everything. Now we can know who is lazy, who is productive, who is depressed, and who isn't worth a shit just by the date they were born."

And this is considered serious shit by some people.  Some of this is just my personal experience.  I've been told about the flaws of the latest generation, whatever they call it I can't remember, but I don't see the same flaws.  I see a group of people whose brains have not yet been corrupted by society, who offer our only hope for the future.  This may be the group with a modicum of sense still left in their heads.  I see hope.  Others see a generation that must be indoctrinated or destroyed or civilization will collapse.

My testable hypothesis is that it's the spanking. Parents may be afraid of revenge. I remember a lesson from my Developmental Psyche class called the attribution theory. A theory which supposes that people attempt to understand the behavior of others by attributing feelings, beliefs, and intentions to them. From that we get the Four Goals of Behavior: Attention, Power, Revenge, and Withdrawal. https://johnsommersflanagan.com/2017/06/10/why-children-misbehave-the-adlerian-perspective/

I remember, I wrote it in my notes, that my professor said do not engage in the cycle of power struggles and revenge. Unfortunately a lot of parents don't even know about Erikson's 8 stages or Vygotsky's zone of proximal development.

When a parent and child relationship gets caught in the cycle of power struggles and revenge, it becomes an issue in adult relationships between the parents and adult child. I don't know, but it's testable. ;)
Title: Re: Why is Leftism a faillure even when it wins?
Post by: Baruch on July 29, 2020, 12:10:44 PM
Stefan Molyneux agrees with you.
Title: Re: Why is Leftism a faillure even when it wins?
Post by: Rogue on July 30, 2020, 11:30:38 AM
Stefan Molyneux agrees with you.

Really? Universal Preferable Behavior or something like that? I might have to rethink this lol.
Title: Re: Why is Leftism a faillure even when it wins?
Post by: Baruch on July 30, 2020, 11:45:35 AM
Really? Universal Preferable Behavior or something like that? I might have to rethink this lol.

He believes that violence of parents to children produces criminals and Democrats (sarc).  Not agreeing or disagreeing with him.  This is a difficult subject.  If I got to be a parent 100x over, I might get the hang of it.