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Humanities Section => History General Discussion => Topic started by: Gregory on April 02, 2020, 10:02:57 PM

Title: History is as much myth as fact
Post by: Gregory on April 02, 2020, 10:02:57 PM
When history dies, it drowns in myth. At present, history is under seige from both sides of politics. Both telling lies.
Title: Re: History is as much myth as fact
Post by: Mike Cl on April 02, 2020, 10:26:12 PM
When history dies, it drowns in myth. At present, history is under seige from both sides of politics. Both telling lies.
History has always been written by the victors.  The history in our school system is made up of quite a bit of propaganda.
Title: Re: History is as much myth as fact
Post by: Gregory on April 02, 2020, 10:34:04 PM
And yet we know better, for the truth is out there waiting to be found.
Title: Re: History is as much myth as fact
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on April 03, 2020, 04:39:46 AM
History has always been written by the victors.   
LOL, you've never heard of Vietnam.

That cliche was appropriate back in the times when the winners exterminated the losers. Last few thousand years, not so much.

Your high school history classes didn't do you any favors, folks.
Title: Re: History is as much myth as fact
Post by: Baruch on April 03, 2020, 07:41:08 AM
When history dies, it drowns in myth. At present, history is under seige from both sides of politics. Both telling lies.

Marxism says everything is politics, and all politics is class.  Neo-Marxism is the pseudo-intellectualism of our age.
Title: Re: History is as much myth as fact
Post by: Baruch on April 03, 2020, 07:42:06 AM
History has always been written by the victors.  The history in our school system is made up of quite a bit of propaganda.

True.  But would you rather be the loser?
Title: Re: History is as much myth as fact
Post by: Mike Cl on April 03, 2020, 09:39:01 AM
LOL, you've never heard of Vietnam.

That cliche was appropriate back in the times when the winners exterminated the losers. Last few thousand years, not so much.

Your high school history classes didn't do you any favors, folks.
I wasn't necessarily meaning that the winner of a war got to write the history.  I'm sure the history of the Vietnam War written by the North Vietnamese is quite a bit different than our account(s).  By victor, in this country, I mean the political point of view that was prevalent at the time dictates the point of view of some particular act/war, gets to write our history of it.  The prevalent view of  Nam was different than what actually happened; the Gulf of Tonkin incident was not as officially reported--it was an excuse to go to war.  It did have precedent in our country--The Spanish American war and the War with Mexico also were started by false reports.

The history of this country is written by those who are in control of the educational/corporate sections of this country.  Howard Zinn does provide some reality to this countries history.     
Title: Re: History is as much myth as fact
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on April 03, 2020, 10:19:38 AM
Historiography is the discipline of sorting out political agendas from fact. I took that class twice, once as an undergrad and once in grad school. It's helpful.
Title: Re: History is as much myth as fact
Post by: Mike Cl on April 03, 2020, 10:33:48 AM
I majored in history in college.  It was an eye-opening experience to say the least.  But it was interesting.  High school history and college history do not compute for the most part.  For example, George Washington did exist.  But much of the stories about him are a mixture of fiction/myth and fact.  And even the 'fact' can have a couple of different points of view.  But that is what made it so much fun.
Title: Re: History is as much myth as fact
Post by: Baruch on April 03, 2020, 01:28:50 PM
I wasn't necessarily meaning that the winner of a war got to write the history.  I'm sure the history of the Vietnam War written by the North Vietnamese is quite a bit different than our account(s).  By victor, in this country, I mean the political point of view that was prevalent at the time dictates the point of view of some particular act/war, gets to write our history of it.  The prevalent view of  Nam was different than what actually happened; the Gulf of Tonkin incident was not as officially reported--it was an excuse to go to war.  It did have precedent in our country--The Spanish American war and the War with Mexico also were started by false reports.

The history of this country is written by those who are in control of the educational/corporate sections of this country.  Howard Zinn does provide some reality to this countries history.   

True.  Ironically the history of the Vietnam war wrote itself ... the Pentagon Papers ;-(

ALL wars are started by false reports (we are talking about politicians here).  FDR arranged for Japan to attack the US, by cutting off their oil and scrap steel, but the US didn't think Hawaii was in danger.  Where did Japan also attack on Dec 7th?  The Philippines.  That is where FDR expected them to attack.  So he was right.  Gen Billy Mitchell predicted Hawaii would be attacked, just the way it actually was, but he had been court-martialed years earlier.  Double Agent Dushko told J Edgar that the Japanese had an unusual interest in Hawaii, wanted him (on a trip to the US paid by the Germans) to check out Hawaii for them.  J Edgar hated spies and thru him out of his office.  Supposedly the Portuguese Embassy in Tokyo, warned the US a few days before, that the Japanese were going to attack.  And of course we were already reading "Purple", we knew everything the Japanese Embassy in the US was hearing from there.

There are a band of brave truth tellers, the SJW Brigade.  Hooray!  Kind of like the Abraham Lincoln Brigade, fighting fascism in Spain (but for the Communist Party).  History rhymes, often in Cyrillic.
Title: Re: History is as much myth as fact
Post by: Baruch on April 03, 2020, 01:30:59 PM
I majored in history in college.  It was an eye-opening experience to say the least.  But it was interesting.  High school history and college history do not compute for the most part.  For example, George Washington did exist.  But much of the stories about him are a mixture of fiction/myth and fact.  And even the 'fact' can have a couple of different points of view.  But that is what made it so much fun.

We didn't know until recent decades, about Ultra and GCHQ.  Can any story of WW II be right, if that is excluded?  The British still have state secrets from the War of 1812.  Yes, many points of view.  But consider not just the POV, but the agenda, of each of them.  The point is to create a narrative or a counter-narrative.  The reason for writing history (since Herodotus) is to promote patriotism or promote sedition (Pentagon Paper reveal again).
Title: Re: History is as much myth as fact
Post by: Baruch on April 03, 2020, 01:32:31 PM
Historiography is the discipline of sorting out political agendas from fact. I took that class twice, once as an undergrad and once in grad school. It's helpful.

The bare facts have no interpretation.  For that you have to get inside people's heads, often people long dead.  Like some kids said why they hated history ... just a dry list of dates and events (which are mostly factual).  When we really want to know did Columbus have to sleep with Queen Isabella to get those ships.
Title: Re: History is as much myth as fact
Post by: Baruch on May 03, 2020, 10:45:01 PM
My favorite Navy channel about my favorite battle ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AdcvDiA3lE
Title: Re: History is as much myth as fact
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on May 04, 2020, 06:21:25 AM
You should read Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors.
Title: Re: History is as much myth as fact
Post by: SGOS on May 04, 2020, 07:13:44 AM
History has always been written by the victors.
We know a lot of truth about Vietnam, which is probably because we didn't win that war and weren't able to shove a lot truth under the carpet, but I think history is a mixture of truth and propaganda.  The more truth, the better the history.
Title: Re: History is as much myth as fact
Post by: Mike Cl on May 04, 2020, 08:50:02 AM
We know a lot of truth about Vietnam, which is probably because we didn't win that war and weren't able to shove a lot truth under the carpet, but I think history is a mixture of truth and propaganda.  The more truth, the better the history.
A good historian has methods to winnow away the chaff and to find the kernels of truth/facts of the matter.  That's the type of history I like to read.
Title: Re: History is as much myth as fact
Post by: SGOS on May 04, 2020, 09:16:49 AM
A good historian has methods to winnow away the chaff and to find the kernels of truth/facts of the matter.  That's the type of history I like to read.
I grew up thinking General Custer was an American Hero, the last man standing at the Little Big Horn, and the only body not desecrated after the massacre, because he was such a respected foe among the Souix.  On our first family vacation out west, we visited the Custer Monument at the Little Big Horn (August 1954), and were regaled by the park attendants with stories about the heroism and dedication of Custer.  That winter, my father came home from work one evening with some old clippings (or copies) of an article written by some army staff person who was one of the first on the scene of the massacre.  He had written this many years after the battle, but it read like something out of the National Enquirer, and totally reversed everything that was known about Custer.  I remember reading that his body was desecrated as bad as every other soldier, and there was no indication that he was the last to die.  He may have shot himself in the head.  It also brought to light much about Custer's barbaric approach to killing Indians, men women, and children.  The author said in the article that he had withheld the information from the public, out of respect for Custer's wife, who lived a long time, and died just 10 years before I was born.  A few years later history had changed, and Custer became widely recognized as an embarrassment, rather than a national hero.  When my dad handed me those clippings, he just shrugged and said something like, "Here's a different point of view."  I asked him if he thought the article was true, and he said, "Maybe time will tell."
Title: Re: History is as much myth as fact
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on May 04, 2020, 09:17:48 AM
A good historian has methods to winnow away the chaff and to find the kernels of truth/facts of the matter.  That's the type of history I like to read.
Fourteen years at Purdue made me remember to try to disprove any statement I make. It has stood me in good stead since.
Title: Re: History is as much myth as fact
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on May 04, 2020, 09:20:16 AM
I grew up thinking General Custer was an American Hero, the last man standing at the Little Big Horn, and the only body not desecrated after the massacre, because he was such a respected foe among the Souix.  On our first family vacation out west, we visited the Custer Monument at the Little Big Horn (August 1954), and were regaled by the park attendants with stories about the heroism and dedication of Custer.  That winter, my father came home from work one evening with some old clippings (or copies) of an article written by some army staff person who was one of the first on the scene of the massacre.  He had written this many years after the battle, but it read like something out of the National Enquirer, and totally reversed everything that was known about Custer.  I remember reading that his body was desecrated as bad as every other soldier, and there was no indication that he was the last to die.  He may have shot himself in the head.  It also brought to light much about Custer's barbaric approach to killing Indians, men women, and children.  The author said in the article that he had withheld the information from the public, out of respect for Custer's wife, who lived a long time, and died just 10 years before I was born.  A few years later history had changed, and Custer became widely recognized as an embarrassment, rather than a national hero.  When my dad handed me those clippings, he just shrugged and said something like, "Here's a different point of view."  I asked him if he thought the article was true, and he said, "Maybe time will tell."
A gentleman contacted me back in '08, offering to sell me one of the Gatling guns that Custer declined to take with him to Little Big Horn. I wasn't interested in spending a ton of money on such an item so I never examined the documents he offered as provenance. The ammo alone would have killed me financially. Would have been a cool toy, however.
Title: Re: History is as much myth as fact
Post by: Mike Cl on May 04, 2020, 11:14:36 AM
I grew up thinking General Custer was an American Hero, the last man standing at the Little Big Horn, and the only body not desecrated after the massacre, because he was such a respected foe among the Souix.  On our first family vacation out west, we visited the Custer Monument at the Little Big Horn (August 1954), and were regaled by the park attendants with stories about the heroism and dedication of Custer.  That winter, my father came home from work one evening with some old clippings (or copies) of an article written by some army staff person who was one of the first on the scene of the massacre.  He had written this many years after the battle, but it read like something out of the National Enquirer, and totally reversed everything that was known about Custer.  I remember reading that his body was desecrated as bad as every other soldier, and there was no indication that he was the last to die.  He may have shot himself in the head.  It also brought to light much about Custer's barbaric approach to killing Indians, men women, and children.  The author said in the article that he had withheld the information from the public, out of respect for Custer's wife, who lived a long time, and died just 10 years before I was born.  A few years later history had changed, and Custer became widely recognized as an embarrassment, rather than a national hero.  When my dad handed me those clippings, he just shrugged and said something like, "Here's a different point of view."  I asked him if he thought the article was true, and he said, "Maybe time will tell."
When in grade school and even high school, I thought that Custer was a hero.  And I bought all kinds of other pieces of propaganda.  Like Washington did not lie about chopping down a cherry tree (made up out of whole cloth, my a minister, of course).  I could go on and on.  In college I ended up being a history major and loved it.
Title: Re: History is as much myth as fact
Post by: Baruch on May 04, 2020, 02:59:46 PM
We know a lot of truth about Vietnam, which is probably because we didn't win that war and weren't able to shove a lot truth under the carpet, but I think history is a mixture of truth and propaganda.  The more truth, the better the history.

Versimilitude is desired, but without the blood and guts ;-)
Title: Re: History is as much myth as fact
Post by: Baruch on May 04, 2020, 03:06:03 PM
I grew up thinking General Custer was an American Hero, the last man standing at the Little Big Horn, and the only body not desecrated after the massacre, because he was such a respected foe among the Souix.  On our first family vacation out west, we visited the Custer Monument at the Little Big Horn (August 1954), and were regaled by the park attendants with stories about the heroism and dedication of Custer.  That winter, my father came home from work one evening with some old clippings (or copies) of an article written by some army staff person who was one of the first on the scene of the massacre.  He had written this many years after the battle, but it read like something out of the National Enquirer, and totally reversed everything that was known about Custer.  I remember reading that his body was desecrated as bad as every other soldier, and there was no indication that he was the last to die.  He may have shot himself in the head.  It also brought to light much about Custer's barbaric approach to killing Indians, men women, and children.  The author said in the article that he had withheld the information from the public, out of respect for Custer's wife, who lived a long time, and died just 10 years before I was born.  A few years later history had changed, and Custer became widely recognized as an embarrassment, rather than a national hero.  When my dad handed me those clippings, he just shrugged and said something like, "Here's a different point of view."  I asked him if he thought the article was true, and he said, "Maybe time will tell."

Got to Little Big Horn in 1975.  Much had been debunked by then, but there were still more revelations in the decades since.  Back in the day, there were famous lithographs of Custer's Last Stand over many bars, probably because it was a "freebee" from a distributor of beer or whiskey.  I think I saw at least one of those in the 60s, possibly in Wyoming.  And we know now that all sides in wars commit atrocities.

I don't take sides, people are violent in general.  And Natives and Settlers had genuine opposite interests.  Those who died bravely fighting for what they believed in, I can honor either way.  Same with any other war or conflict.  Never felt negative toward Axis soldiers or Allied soldiers ... they were just doing what they were told to.  My parents lived during WW II, so had greater prejudice.  Don't have any known relatives who died in the Indian wars.
Title: Re: History is as much myth as fact
Post by: Baruch on May 04, 2020, 03:07:40 PM
When in grade school and even high school, I thought that Custer was a hero.  And I bought all kinds of other pieces of propaganda.  Like Washington did not lie about chopping down a cherry tree (made up out of whole cloth, my a minister, of course).  I could go on and on.  In college I ended up being a history major and loved it.

But did you go from one ignorant prejudice to another?  One can put oneself in the other guys moccasins without being bitter.  "We Were Soldiers" and "Letters From Iwo Jima" are like that ... honest without being prejudiced.
Title: Re: History is as much myth as fact
Post by: Baruch on May 04, 2020, 03:11:30 PM
A gentleman contacted me back in '08, offering to sell me one of the Gatling guns that Custer declined to take with him to Little Big Horn. I wasn't interested in spending a ton of money on such an item so I never examined the documents he offered as provenance. The ammo alone would have killed me financially. Would have been a cool toy, however.

I think those were brought by the Gibbon's infantry column that arrived after the battle?  Gatling guns had a tendency to jam, not fixed until the Maxime gun was invented.  Prussian needle gun (rifle) in 1866 was as good as a machine gun in well trained regiments (Austrian army destroyed).  Custer was the second column, the first column on the Rosebud had been destroyed some time before Custer's battle, but he didn't know about it.  Custer didn't want to share any glory with the infantry third column (typical egomaniac cavalryman).  Marshal Ney did he same thing attacking Wellington's infantry squares at Waterloo.
Title: Re: History is as much myth as fact
Post by: Baruch on May 04, 2020, 03:17:08 PM
On to domestic history ....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLyCVGkwhB4

Suburbs ... heaven or hell?  We are at the end of that period that started in 1950 ... cars, detached houses, lawns, malls.  The malls are dying already, and the post-war America will die off with the Boomers, which started with their parents.  Just as well, do we really want too much continuity with Victorian slums?
Title: Re: History is as much myth as fact
Post by: Baruch on May 04, 2020, 11:33:32 PM
Reconstructing Roman Hispania ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=428&v=TOE7MeRe9K8&feature=emb_logo
Title: Re: History is as much myth as fact
Post by: Baruch on May 09, 2020, 12:21:47 PM
The real Col Kurz was an African-American Army private in Burma in WW II ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6gtbegQGEQ
Title: Re: History is as much myth as fact
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on May 09, 2020, 12:36:03 PM
I do WWII. Since 1958 actually. HTTP://ibiblio.org/hyperwar has >22 terabytes of files on the subject. And we haven't scratched the surface. Why do I mention this? I think it was Samuel Clemens who first said "The best way to lie to tell the truth, then shut up." Lying by omission is quite common in historical works.
Title: Re: History is as much myth as fact
Post by: Baruch on May 09, 2020, 12:41:24 PM
Jungle warfare sucks, so I am told.  Burma sucked in particular (in spite of movie I saw about Merrill's Marauders).  GIs with access to drugs and guns are a bad combination ...

Up until the volunteer force post Vietnam, African-American soldiers were treated badly (though not as bad as say the average guy in the Russian Army).  Back in the day, regular beatings were how minor infractions and informal rankings were handled in the British forces (class based officer corp).
Title: Re: History is as much myth as fact
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on May 09, 2020, 01:43:11 PM
I enjoyed my time on the Tonle Sap.
Title: Re: History is as much myth as fact
Post by: Baruch on May 11, 2020, 02:45:53 PM
Chinese strategic tripwires ... cross at your peril!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGFtFFrsQ7c
Title: Re: History is as much myth as fact
Post by: Draconic Aiur on May 12, 2020, 02:55:49 AM
When history dies, it drowns in myth. At present, history is under seige from both sides of politics. Both telling lies.

Truth never dies. It's the Bullshit that dies.
Title: Re: History is as much myth as fact
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on May 12, 2020, 05:08:10 AM
Lazy is the enemy of history.
Title: Re: History is as much myth as fact
Post by: Baruch on May 16, 2020, 03:26:02 PM
I agree with this ...

https://www.bitchute.com/video/zrnysWP3qA5D/
Title: Re: History is as much myth as fact
Post by: drunkenshoe on May 17, 2020, 02:21:03 AM
Is this title from the Man in the Iron Mask?
Title: Re: History is as much myth as fact
Post by: Baruch on May 17, 2020, 10:29:21 AM
Is this title from the Man in the Iron Mask?

Clever.  Are you the woman villain from The Three Musketeers?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJlEsqNjc78

I just love Milla!
Title: Re: History is as much myth as fact
Post by: Baruch on May 24, 2020, 09:01:13 AM
Even labor socialism kills, not just GB in the 70s ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moASAdrwvs0

Politicians and labor union bosses are not your friends.
Title: Re: History is as much myth as fact
Post by: drunkenshoe on May 30, 2020, 04:50:10 PM
Clever.

No, weird memory. I didn't google that.
Title: Re: History is as much myth as fact
Post by: drunkenshoe on May 30, 2020, 06:20:12 PM
OK I googled it. LOL
                   

"Some of this is legend, but at least this much is fact..."
Title: Re: History is as much myth as fact
Post by: Baruch on June 01, 2020, 07:18:53 AM
KonTiki as projection …

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCyzrie_les

Progressives projected their prejudices in the 1700s and even more recently (Jared Diamond)

Apocalypse occurs with destruction of native cultures by germs and misguided virtue signaling.
Title: Re: History is as much myth as fact
Post by: Baruch on June 06, 2020, 03:37:26 PM
@Munch ... your Blackshirts are at it again ...

"London statue of Winston Churchill vandalized on D-Day amid protests" ... vandalize Labour Party HQ instead?
Title: Re: History is as much myth as fact
Post by: Baruch on June 08, 2020, 08:26:40 PM
"The last person to receive a Civil War-era pension died last week" ... her father a dual South/North veteran had his daughter when he was 83.  She died at 90.  Both veterans, their wives and their children received pensions.
Title: Re: History is as much myth as fact
Post by: Baruch on June 10, 2020, 03:30:47 PM
"Night of the Assassins" by Howard Blum … the plot (Operation Long Jump) by the Nazis to assassinate FDR, Churchill, Stalin at Tehran.  My grandfather was in the US Army (Corp of Engineers) at Tehran at that time.  German special forces were parachuted in.  The Corp of Engineers had built water tunnels to supply the US Embassy.  British traitor (code name Cicero) in the Turkish embassy was paid a million dollars to give out the location of the conference.  Turned out, he was given counterfeit money by the Nazis.  After the war, he tried to sue Germany for justice, but died broke.  A double agent of the Soviet Union, arranged a reception party by Soviet troops, and the main German team (three dozen) are gunned down.  But there are already six assassins on the ground before this.  Ongoing breakdown of the plan, led to the previously unguarded water tunnels being guarded.  And a $20,000 reward leads the Iranians to arrest the assassins.
Title: Re: History is as much myth as fact
Post by: Baruch on August 12, 2020, 02:16:24 PM
@Munch ... your Blackshirts are at it again ...

"London statue of Winston Churchill vandalized on D-Day amid protests" ... vandalize Labour Party HQ instead?

“One may dislike Hitler’s system and yet admire his patriotic achievement. If our country were defeated, I hope we should find a champion as indomitable to restore our courage and lead us back to our place among the nations." - Winston Churchill

“If I had been an Italian I am sure that I should have been whole-heartedly with you from the start to finish in your triumphant struggle against the bestial appetites and passions of Leninism." - Winston Churchill

The real reason to cancel Churchill, before WWII, he praised Hitler and Mussolini.

Boris Johnson vs Hitler in 2016 ... when Boris was still mayor of London

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJWUmSbt0Ms
Title: Re: History is as much myth as fact
Post by: Baruch on August 15, 2020, 01:43:38 PM
A great sea-yarn in General Sherman's memoirs ...

“In the very midst of this panic came the news that the steamer Central America, formerly the George Law, with six hundred passengers and about sixteen hundred thousand dollars of treasure, coming from Aspinwall, had foundered at sea, off the coast of Georgia, and that about sixty of the passengers had been providentially picked up by a Swedish bark, and brought into Savannah. The absolute loss of this treasure went to swell the confusion and panic of the day. A few days after, I was standing in the vestibule of the Metropolitan Hotel, and heard the captain of the Swedish bark tell his singular story of the rescue of these passengers. He was a short, sailor-like-looking man, with a strong German or Swedish accent. He said that he was sailing from some port in Honduras for Sweden, running down the Gulf Stream off Savannah. The weather had been heavy for some days, and, about nightfall, as he paced his deck, he observed a man-of-war hawk circle about his vessel, gradually lowering, until the bird was as it were aiming at him. He jerked out a belaying pin, struck at the bird, missed it, when the hawk again rose high in the air, and a second time began to descend, contract his circle, and make at him again. The second time he hit the bird, and struck it to the deck. . . . This strange fact made him uneasy, and he thought it betokened danger; he went to the binnacle, saw the course he was steering, and without any particular reason he ordered the steersman to alter the course one point to the east. After this it became quite dark, and he continued to promenade the deck, and had settled into a drowsy state, when as in a dream he thought he heard voices all round his ship. Waking up, he ran to the side of the ship, saw something struggling in the water, and heard clearly cries for help. Instantly heaving his ship to, and lowering all his boats, he managed to pick up sixty or more persons who were floating about on skylights, doors, spare, and whatever fragments remained of the Central America. Had he not changed the course of his vessel by reason of the mysterious conduct of that man-of-war hawk, not a soul would probably have survived the night.”  - General Sherman

This wreck was found in our time, and its treasure recovered off the bottom of the Atlantic
Title: Re: History is as much myth as fact
Post by: Baruch on August 22, 2020, 07:47:23 PM
Notice how AntiFa and BLM, who are totally NOT Marxist ... remember all their Marxist indoctrination, including how to do a revolution ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cqbleas1mmo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1reY72ktEc

Except 2020 isn't 1917, the US isn't the Russian Empire, President Trump isn't the Czar and McConnell isn't Kerensky.
Title: Re: History is as much myth as fact
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on August 23, 2020, 10:31:00 AM
Myth is not history.
Title: Re: History is as much myth as fact
Post by: Baruch on August 23, 2020, 11:27:15 AM
Per political indoctrination, all history is myth
Title: Re: History is as much myth as fact
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on August 23, 2020, 02:28:03 PM
Luckily, historians don't care what you think any more that any other sapient on this planet.
Title: Re: History is as much myth as fact
Post by: Baruch on August 23, 2020, 05:33:37 PM
Luckily, historians don't care what you think any more that any other sapient on this planet.

Historians = self promoting politicians like Churchill, or drudges who shill for some political party.

So was Cortes right or Montezuma right?  Partisanship doesn't get any credit with me.

If mass violence is just some statistically anomalous mass psych behavior, then nobody was at fault for WW II, statistics is at fault.

Was that Mafia history (on other string) good or not?  Depends on if you support the Mafia or the Italian government.
Title: Re: History is as much myth as fact
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on August 24, 2020, 05:57:31 AM
I was a working historian for decades, zero self-promotion involved.
Title: Re: History is as much myth as fact
Post by: Baruch on August 24, 2020, 10:09:58 AM
I was a working historian for decades, zero self-promotion involved.

This is a web site for virtue signaling.  But you might be an exception .. neutral history is possible, but only if you are an Independent.
Title: Re: History is as much myth as fact
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on August 24, 2020, 05:15:46 PM
This is a web site for virtue signaling.  But you might be an exception .. neutral history is possible, but only if you are an Independent.
ibiblio.org/hyperwar
ibiblio.org/pha
Title: Re: History is as much myth as fact
Post by: Baruch on August 24, 2020, 08:48:19 PM
ibiblio.org/hyperwar
ibiblio.org/pha

What happens when official documents are falsified for security or self serving, like Churchill not mentioning Ultra or Susan Rice's self serving email regarding the Jan 5 2017 meeting in the President's office regarding continuing the pressure on Flynn/Trump even though FBI admitted that their investigation was a dry hole?  I love the phone recording of LBJ and J Edgar, after the assassination, where they act all innocent and surprised!

Any document by the government, is confidential for all time.  Two confidential documents when combined, can even have elevated security rating (this happened to an officer I know, who accidentally did this at a brief of the commander).  Sometimes released with redactions, but we don't know if the redacted document is the original.  Gerald Ford was in on the Warren Commission, and got a handsome reward.  One can take a neutral approach to official documents, but if you look at the case of Mary Queen of Scotts, she was entrapped, by better spooks than Comey tried with Flynn.

‘Oh what a tangled web we weave/When first we practice to deceive’
Title: Re: History is as much myth as fact
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on August 25, 2020, 06:19:50 AM
Draw as many artificial boundaries as you need to prevent your world view from being invaded.
Title: Re: History is as much myth as fact
Post by: Baruch on August 25, 2020, 09:28:35 AM
Cynicism is a win in any century.  Official narrative by Cheops, Pharaoh of the first Great Pyramid … not so much.
Title: Re: History is as much myth as fact
Post by: Baruch on August 29, 2020, 02:29:19 PM
The Greek Bible (Iliad and Odyssey) is as much a foundation of the West as the OT ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNSUQiQdEVM
Title: Re: History is as much myth as fact
Post by: Baruch on August 31, 2020, 08:25:13 PM
For the fools who destroy statues ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZXQJ4AoKjc

Replacement video that covers iconoclasm
Title: Re: History is as much myth as fact
Post by: Baruch on November 17, 2020, 12:03:51 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lg-nUy2DalM

The US returned to the foreign policy of pre-1945 ... in 1991.  This is why we have endless wars for war profiteering, and drug supply for the CIA.
Title: Re: History is as much myth as fact
Post by: Baruch on November 20, 2020, 01:17:39 PM
The US isn't a democracy, but a republic.  But what is a republic?  A continuation of the Roman Republic (the original) by other means.  The Roman Republic was in a state of civil war for nearly 100 years before Caesar was assassinated.  The Populi vs the Patrici ... populists (Dems) vs elites (Reps).  Dems should do the full Roman salute with the Left arm, Reps should do the full Roman salute with the Right arm.  There was no Republic without Rome.  Which was organized crime and war profiteering, especially the slave markets which were mostly prisoners of war and abandoned infants in the cities rescued by slavers (see 14 year old runaway girls now).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3i5lbApRUg

A chant like this should be the anthem of every Western country ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkeLkuFzPfM

Pagan, materialist, Greco-Roman.  And then there are the Judaioi and the Christianoi (because they were mostly in Greek speaking Roman territory).  Western atheists are former Christians/former Jews mostly.  Godless pagans ;-)  Not that there is anything wrong with paganism (see my poem about Bacchus) or being godless.  But most people  thru history are superstitious, particularly about godlessness (wrong god or no god) and punished it severely.
Title: Re: History is as much myth as fact
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on November 28, 2020, 02:25:45 PM
The US is a representative republic.
Title: Re: History is as much myth as fact
Post by: Baruch on November 28, 2020, 03:50:46 PM
The US is a representative republic.

In both cases, run by millionaire oligarchs.  Though the franchise is much broader in America than in the Roman Republic, because the Popular Assembly was rarely called into session.  In both cases "bread and circuses" and war profiteering to control the Plebs.  Think ... Senate plus Pentagon running everything.  The much maligned Founding Fathers were well aware of the limitations of both Rome and Athens, and chose a model of the Roman Republic plus Locke (who got it from Aristotle).  Not a bad try ... lasted 72 years until the Democrats blew it up.

A shout-out for the Barbarians, including the Celts (Caledonians and Hibernians never conquered by Rome) ... about 96% of my ancestors were non-Romans.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btqrNGQE0BU