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Humanities Section => Philosophy & Rhetoric General Discussion => Topic started by: Munch on March 31, 2020, 11:02:35 PM

Title: Toxic Entitled in todays society
Post by: Munch on March 31, 2020, 11:02:35 PM
This isn't really a deep dive into it, more just a casual observation on the stare of todays society as a whole.

Often I've heard the word toxicity thrown around into many peoples description of other people, a lot of the time to do with pushing your own agenda as a way of validation of your own and dismissing the other.

I've become convinced however, that toxic behavior, and a sense of entitlement, often with a narcissistic tone to it, has become an almost universal concept within many modern day cultures and societies. I mean all you really have to do is spend half an hour online looking over any forums, any news comment sections, any youtube videos, play any game with a chat box, anything that allows for people to speak freely, and the toxicity can sometimes be to much before it poisons the well.

And I think this is what just drives me around from any kind of groups of people, only feeling at ease within the small amount of people I know and trust most (which itself came even sometimes crop up but as is human nature).

I mean human nature has always has such behavior to it, I'm more thinking of the way concepts, ideologues and followings, no matter how much you want to believe in a cause, a side, a following, those ideals and concepts ultimately become poisoned by toxic people poisoning the waters.

Lets take todays social liberal leaning left. I think today, there are so many toxic people that have infested the left leaning side of the political system, that the more rational thinking liberals have been bulldozed over by the extreme side, the ones who are incapable of thinking rationally. They scream the loudest, get all the attention, and if anyone on the left whos as say a more rational left leaning person speaks up that their extreme minded compatriots are going to far, those same extreme minded, toxic and entitled individuals start accusing people in their own political spectrum as being 'a dirty right leaning fascist!'.

Of course you have this behavior on any side of the political spectrum. It of course makes it easier for someone on one side to look at the other side, and only see the extremists who just make the entire side of the spectrum ugly and corroded. Toxic and heavy handed behavior stands out more in todays society then the rational thinkers ever will.

Just for the record, when sjws are refereed to, anyone on the left shouldn't take insult to this as if their entire political belief system is being lambasted, instead you should look at the toxic behavior of those in your political group and distance yourself from them. In the same way someone whos right or conservative leaning should distance themselves from those who look down on others based on class, race or wealth.

Toxic entitlement, belief that only your view of society is the correct way and anyone else is at fault is just something that needs to be studied more. I think it should be brought into question and looked at what a toxic personality does to all forms of outlook and behavior, and why it should be treated more like a psychological condition rather then letting it become part of society, like we see so much of today.
Title: Re: Toxic Entitled in todays society
Post by: Baruch on April 01, 2020, 12:17:17 AM
In the standard psych model, people are naturally neutral and functional.  But of course to a degree, we are biased and dysfunctional.  The kind of bias and dysfunction varies.

The standard meme is:

Hard times create strong men,
Strong men create good times,
Good times create weak men,
Weak men create hard times.

This applies to women also.  So in previous generations, life was hard for most everyone, most of the time.  Since WWII, Western people haven't been challenged with survival, just with wokism.  This is covered in the series on Boomers I have posted.  Would it have been better if we weren't spoiled, if times continued to be just as hard as 1929-1949?  Most of our challenges since 1949 have been more remote and theoretical.
Title: Re: Toxic Entitled in todays society
Post by: Shiranu on April 01, 2020, 01:02:17 AM
Quote
Would it have been better if we weren't spoiled, if times continued to be just as hard as 1929-1949?

Considering we were on the verge of annihilating ourselves, I'm going to go with a hard no.

Strength without wisdom is useless at best, destructive at worse.
Title: Re: Toxic Entitled in todays society
Post by: aitm on April 01, 2020, 08:36:08 AM
I guess because or maybe due to, working in construction, I don’t see any of the behaviors you guys often talk about. Then again, the ethnicity of construction workers is changing rapidly towards Latino and Hispanic who don’t share these ideals.

I’ll just have to take your word for it and shake my head vigorously at the whole of the kit and kaboodle.....or not at all.....
Title: Re: Toxic Entitled in todays society
Post by: Mike Cl on April 01, 2020, 09:24:12 AM
This isn't really a deep dive into it, more just a casual observation on the stare of todays society as a whole.

Often I've heard the word toxicity thrown around into many peoples description of other people, a lot of the time to do with pushing your own agenda as a way of validation of your own and dismissing the other.

I've become convinced however, that toxic behavior, and a sense of entitlement, often with a narcissistic tone to it, has become an almost universal concept within many modern day cultures and societies. I mean all you really have to do is spend half an hour online looking over any forums, any news comment sections, any youtube videos, play any game with a chat box, anything that allows for people to speak freely, and the toxicity can sometimes be to much before it poisons the well.

And I think this is what just drives me around from any kind of groups of people, only feeling at ease within the small amount of people I know and trust most (which itself came even sometimes crop up but as is human nature).

I mean human nature has always has such behavior to it, I'm more thinking of the way concepts, ideologues and followings, no matter how much you want to believe in a cause, a side, a following, those ideals and concepts ultimately become poisoned by toxic people poisoning the waters.

Lets take todays social liberal leaning left. I think today, there are so many toxic people that have infested the left leaning side of the political system, that the more rational thinking liberals have been bulldozed over by the extreme side, the ones who are incapable of thinking rationally. They scream the loudest, get all the attention, and if anyone on the left whos as say a more rational left leaning person speaks up that their extreme minded compatriots are going to far, those same extreme minded, toxic and entitled individuals start accusing people in their own political spectrum as being 'a dirty right leaning fascist!'.

Of course you have this behavior on any side of the political spectrum. It of course makes it easier for someone on one side to look at the other side, and only see the extremists who just make the entire side of the spectrum ugly and corroded. Toxic and heavy handed behavior stands out more in todays society then the rational thinkers ever will.

Just for the record, when sjws are refereed to, anyone on the left shouldn't take insult to this as if their entire political belief system is being lambasted, instead you should look at the toxic behavior of those in your political group and distance yourself from them. In the same way someone whos right or conservative leaning should distance themselves from those who look down on others based on class, race or wealth.

Toxic entitlement, belief that only your view of society is the correct way and anyone else is at fault is just something that needs to be studied more. I think it should be brought into question and looked at what a toxic personality does to all forms of outlook and behavior, and why it should be treated more like a psychological condition rather then letting it become part of society, like we see so much of today.
Actually, Munch, there is a clinical test going on right now; Trump is the personification of toxic; Fox News is his major media supporter.  The virus is accelerating this test as more and more of the US is succumbing to that way of thinking.  Actually, the entire world is turning more and more authoritative by the day.  And it isn't the left that is driving that.   
Title: Re: Toxic Entitled in todays society
Post by: GSOgymrat on April 01, 2020, 11:00:00 AM
I recently read Why We're Polarized by Ezra Klein and an idea he presented that I thought was interesting is that one reason we are polarized is because we have self-sorted our individual identities into sociopolitical "mega-identities" where if one identity is perceived to be attacked it triggers a response by an entire group. For example, if gun-rights are perceived to be restricted it mobilizes people who are pro-life or if the rights of transgender people are perceived to be restricted if mobilizes environmentalists. Many people have forgotten that prior to 1970 both the Democratic and Republican parties had conservatives, moderates and liberals. Today if you take two people -- a woman, age 25,  LGBTQ, who shops at Whole Foods and drives an electric vehicle, and a man, age 60, who eats are Cracker Barrel and drives a Ford F-350-- you can probably guess which political party each belongs to. This didn't use to be true.

“Political identity is fair game for hatred,” he says. “Racial identity is not. Gender identity is not. You cannot express negative sentiments about social groups in this day and age. But political identities are not protected by these constraints. A Republican is someone who chooses to be Republican, so I can say whatever I want about them. ...  Toxic systems compromise good individuals with ease. They do so not by demanding we betray our values but by enlisting our values such that we betray each other. What is rational and even moral for us to do individually becomes destructive when done collectively.””
Title: Re: Toxic Entitled in todays society
Post by: Munch on April 01, 2020, 11:10:36 AM
Actually, Munch, there is a clinical test going on right now; Trump is the personification of toxic; Fox News is his major media supporter.  The virus is accelerating this test as more and more of the US is succumbing to that way of thinking.  Actually, the entire world is turning more and more authoritative by the day.  And it isn't the left that is driving that.

Well I never accused the left of driving it. But their are just as many toxic people on the left as there are on the right, and even centrists can be just as toxic. It isn't a case that one side is more or less toxic then another, what it's about is the nature of toxic behaviour, entitlement and narcisissm that can come into any demographic and poison it.
Title: Re: Toxic Entitled in todays society
Post by: GSOgymrat on April 01, 2020, 11:28:13 AM
Well I never accused the left of driving it. But their are just as many toxic people on the left as there are on the right, and even centrists can be just as toxic. It isn't a case that one side is more or less toxic then another, what it's about is the nature of toxic behaviour, entitlement and narcisissm that can come into any demographic and poison it.

I think the "toxic behaviour, entitlement and narcisissm" is partially a result of social media. Social media rewards outrage. When I talk to people in person they seem more reasonable than their online personas would lead one to believe.
Title: Re: Toxic Entitled in todays society
Post by: Mike Cl on April 01, 2020, 11:37:21 AM
Well I never accused the left of driving it. But their are just as many toxic people on the left as there are on the right, and even centrists can be just as toxic. It isn't a case that one side is more or less toxic then another, what it's about is the nature of toxic behaviour, entitlement and narcisissm that can come into any demographic and poison it.
Toxic behavior has no limits--it can, and does, effect any and all groups.  I don't have any studies that backs me up, but I'd say the conservatives exhibit much more of the toxic thoughts and actions than do the liberals.  Yes, both have extremes, but the conservative/right love to tout their christianhood and that simply adds to their toxic nature.  And trump is driving the viability of the toxic right--it is okay, according to him, to be a skinhead or the like--those groups have many fine people........

Munch, you seem to have a real blind spot about liberals.  Yes, some are toxic; hell, the best possible group out there are Yankee fans, hands down!  But some of those are toxic.  At the moment, conservatives are embracing toxic attitudes, thoughts and actions much more than the left.   I totally dislike what any toxic person does or says no matter the group.  But I don't see any liberal movement that is sweeping the world that has any kind of power that is being displayed by the conservative/right--more and more are allowing/helping those types to gain power world wide; that does not bode well for the future.  Hunger Games anyone???
Title: Re: Toxic Entitled in todays society
Post by: GSOgymrat on April 01, 2020, 11:48:28 AM
Toxic behavior has no limits--it can, and does, effect any and all groups.  I don't have any studies that backs me up, but I'd say the conservatives exhibit much more of the toxic thoughts and actions than do the liberals.  Yes, both have extremes, but the conservative/right love to tout their christianhood and that simply adds to their toxic nature.  And trump is driving the viability of the toxic right--it is okay, according to him, to be a skinhead or the like--those groups have many fine people........

Munch, you seem to have a real blind spot about liberals.  Yes, some are toxic; hell, the best possible group out there are Yankee fans, hands down!  But some of those are toxic.  At the moment, conservatives are embracing toxic attitudes, thoughts and actions much more than the left.   I totally dislike what any toxic person does or says no matter the group.  But I don't see any liberal movement that is sweeping the world that has any kind of power that is being displayed by the conservative/right--more and more are allowing/helping those types to gain power world wide; that does not bode well for the future.  Hunger Games anyone???

I came across this when looking for the previous quote:

“Unfortunately, the term “identity politics” has been weaponized. It is most often used by speakers to describe politics as practiced by members of historically marginalized groups. If you’re black and you're worried about police brutality, that’s identity politics. If you’re a woman and you’re worried about the male-female pay gap, that’s identity politics. But if you’re a rural gun owner decrying universal background checks as tyranny, or a billionaire CEO complaining that high tax rates demonize success, or a Christian insisting on Nativity scenes in public squares — well, that just good, old fashioned politics. With a quick sleight of hand, identity becomes something that only marginalized groups have.

The term “identity politics,” in this usage, obscures rather than illuminates; it’s used to diminish and discredit the concerns of the weaker groups by making them look self-interested, special pleading in order to clear the agenda for the concerns of stronger groups, which are framed as more rational, proper topics for political debate. But in wielding identity as a blade, we have lost it as a lens, blinding ourselves in a bid for political advantage. WE are left searching in vain for what we refuse to allow ourselves to see.”
― Ezra Klein, Why We're Polarized
Title: Re: Toxic Entitled in todays society
Post by: Baruch on April 01, 2020, 12:35:01 PM
Well I never accused the left of driving it. But their are just as many toxic people on the left as there are on the right, and even centrists can be just as toxic. It isn't a case that one side is more or less toxic then another, what it's about is the nature of toxic behaviour, entitlement and narcisissm that can come into any demographic and poison it.

Everyone is equally vile.  But some are more equal than others ;-)
Title: Re: Toxic Entitled in todays society
Post by: Baruch on April 01, 2020, 12:36:25 PM
Considering we were on the verge of annihilating ourselves, I'm going to go with a hard no.

Strength without wisdom is useless at best, destructive at worse.

We have been on the verge of annihilation since 1945.  So a holy beta male is better than an evil alpha male?  Or is that just SJW projection?
Title: Re: Toxic Entitled in todays society
Post by: Baruch on April 01, 2020, 12:37:57 PM
I guess because or maybe due to, working in construction, I don’t see any of the behaviors you guys often talk about. Then again, the ethnicity of construction workers is changing rapidly towards Latino and Hispanic who don’t share these ideals.

I’ll just have to take your word for it and shake my head vigorously at the whole of the kit and kaboodle.....or not at all.....

Construction workers (roofer as a teen myself) are real workers, no matter their ethnicity.  The problem is middle class white collar office worker angst.
Title: Re: Toxic Entitled in todays society
Post by: Baruch on April 01, 2020, 12:41:03 PM
Actually, Munch, there is a clinical test going on right now; Trump is the personification of toxic; Fox News is his major media supporter.  The virus is accelerating this test as more and more of the US is succumbing to that way of thinking.  Actually, the entire world is turning more and more authoritative by the day.  And it isn't the left that is driving that.

Trump is Hitler ... bwahah.  Any President would have reached for authoritarian means in times like these, or be lynched.  The trick will be, will the authoritarianism subside a year from now?  Probably not, and it is bi-partisan.  Neo-Libs are killers, same as neo-Cons.  Businessmen are killers, same as politicians.

The Left are virtue signalers, always have been.  Funny how the Right are just like them.  Look at me (egomania) I am wonderful (narcissism).  I think you would be much happier in Canada under "Justine" Trudeau.  At times (when in an evil mood) I think it would be good for Covid to win (channeling my inner Thanos).  In 1930, the leading Progressives were Hitler and Stalin.
Title: Re: Toxic Entitled in todays society
Post by: Gregory on April 02, 2020, 09:05:46 PM
Find what you hate and don't let it kill you.
Title: Re: Toxic Entitled in todays society
Post by: Baruch on April 02, 2020, 09:43:05 PM
Find what you hate and don't let it kill you.

Indeed, what you hate has much to teach you.
Title: Re: Toxic Entitled in todays society
Post by: Gregory on April 02, 2020, 11:55:37 PM
Negativism is a positive.
Title: Re: Toxic Entitled in todays society
Post by: Gregory on April 03, 2020, 01:05:32 AM
Freedom is combustible.
Title: Re: Toxic Entitled in todays society
Post by: Baruch on April 03, 2020, 07:49:36 AM
Posts are disposable.
Title: Re: Toxic Entitled in todays society
Post by: Baruch on April 09, 2020, 01:03:22 PM
"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers. - Socrates"

Pretty much covers most people born in the US since 1945.
Title: Re: Toxic Entitled in todays society
Post by: Draconic Aiur on April 09, 2020, 05:38:28 PM
There is something to be said for the liberal side though when there is still slavery, discrimination, ignorance, and facist political parties like theAmerican republican right whom doesn't care about the common people and inherited the toxic authority that has dominated empires in the later years. This elitism that divides a society and forces upon it's citizens less freedom than it promotes makes sure to keep them in line through the law, norms, environment, and culture.

Yes there are some "toxic entitlements" that are crazy, but most "toxic entitlements" are the result of societies "evil" showing its face. Yes, I do believe evil exists. It's in the hearts of men. And to say when men and women are given power peoples heads will roll.
Title: Re: Toxic Entitled in todays society
Post by: Baruch on April 10, 2020, 12:39:39 AM
There is something to be said for the liberal side though when there is still slavery, discrimination, ignorance, and facist political parties like theAmerican republican right whom doesn't care about the common people and inherited the toxic authority that has dominated empires in the later years. This elitism that divides a society and forces upon it's citizens less freedom than it promotes makes sure to keep them in line through the law, norms, environment, and culture.

Yes there are some "toxic entitlements" that are crazy, but most "toxic entitlements" are the result of societies "evil" showing its face. Yes, I do believe evil exists. It's in the hearts of men. And to say when men and women are given power peoples heads will roll.

Well it is a meme.  Corrupt youth, senile age.  Is society wrong and criminals right?  Or is society right and criminals wrong?  Isn't this a false choice?  But "structural" problems, what super powers do you possess to correct such things?  Can you be more just in your own life?  That is doable.  There is evil, and it will always be with us, in new forms (Alexa for example).