First of all, just to fill you in on my own personal version of crazy, a part of me blames my deconversion for the pandemic. I am a rational person who knows better, but the thought is haunting.
But what I'm really looking for is solace. If this had happened before my deconversion, I would have been in constant prayer and feeling like all would be okay...I just needed to have faith. Now I feel helpless. Where do you find comfort at a time like this?
Quote from: AcrobaticDetective on March 16, 2020, 09:20:05 PM
First of all, just to fill you in on my own personal version of crazy, a part of me blames my deconversion for the pandemic. I am a rational person who knows better, but the thought is haunting.
But what I'm really looking for is solace. If this had happened before my deconversion, I would have been in constant prayer and feeling like all would be okay...I just needed to have faith. Now I feel helpless. Where do you find comfort at a time like this?
In science and reasoning. Read about what the cause of the virus is, how it is transmitted and what to do about it. Then do it. At no point in your life (or anybody else) did prayer and faith have any effect upon anything--other than your own personal emotional state. Take the steps to keep it from spreading (wash your hands, social distancing, keep your living area clean, and don't cough or sneeze on anybody. ) and you will be fine.
Quote from: AcrobaticDetective on March 16, 2020, 09:20:05 PM
Where do you find comfort at a time like this?
In maths. In knowledge. In facts. Elsewhere on this forum, I calculated that even in the worst-hit parts of the world outside China, the infection rate is a whopping 0.25% -- and the fatality rate is about 1% of
that. So I like my odds.
You need not throw out everything that worked for you as a Christian. For example, the Serenity Prayer is essentially stoic philosophy: To avoid unhappiness, frustration, and disappointment, we need to do two things: control those things that are within our power (namely our beliefs, judgments, desires, and attitudes) and be indifferent or apathetic to those things which are not in our power (namely, things external to us).
I take comfort in impermanence. The virus will eventually runs its course and be a thing of memory. The anxiety you feel now is a collection of thoughts and sensations and will change even by simply turning attention to it. If you feel happy in the moment appreciate it, if you are suffering acknowledge it, and remember that feelings are ephemeral, thoughts change and eventually memories fade.
Quote from: Mike Cl on March 16, 2020, 10:03:30 PM
In science and reasoning. Read about what the cause of the virus is, how it is transmitted and what to do about it. Then do it. At no point in your life (or anybody else) did prayer and faith have any effect upon anything--other than your own personal emotional state. Take the steps to keep it from spreading (wash your hands, social distancing, keep your living area clean, and don't cough or sneeze on anybody. ) and you will be fine.
Are you a virus researcher? Find out what the Public Health Department says, and do that. You should have been washing your hands all along.
My anxiety is around economic fears, job loss, and another major recession. I'm not personally worried about the virus. I am taking all of the measures the CDC recommends of course.
Me? I secretly pray to Jesus.
Quote from: AcrobaticDetective on March 16, 2020, 09:20:05 PM
First of all, just to fill you in on my own personal version of crazy, a part of me blames my deconversion for the pandemic. I am a rational person who knows better, but the thought is haunting.
But what I'm really looking for is solace. If this had happened before my deconversion, I would have been in constant prayer and feeling like all would be okay...I just needed to have faith. Now I feel helpless. Where do you find comfort at a time like this?
I wish you solace and comfort, same as I do everyone. Your reconversion had nothing to do with this. The pandemic came about as an natural event, a man made accident or a bio-war. None of which you had any control over. If you are the Chinese idiot that ate bat soup, made with an infected lab bat ... then you have something to atone for.
The best solace I can give is an old Irish joke ...
Murphy got sick and was afraid he was going to die .. he asked his priest what to do about his worry ...
Father O'Neill told him ... "Either you will live or you will die". "If you live, there is nothing to worry about". "If you die, you will either go to heaven or to hell". "But if you go to heaven, there is nothing to worry about". Murphy replied "What if I go to hell?". Father O'Neill countered ... "That is no problem at all at all ... because in hell you will be with all your old friends from the pub" ;-))
Quote from: AcrobaticDetective on March 17, 2020, 08:25:00 AM
My anxiety is around economic fears, job loss, and another major recession. I'm not personally worried about the virus. I am taking all of the measures the CDC recommends of course.
You will have this anxiety all your life. It is a condition of both normal and abnormal times. Do you have a social safety net? Not welfare necessarily, but family and friends? I am lucky in that I can rely on my daughter and my ex, and all three of us are now in the same town for the first time in years. My UU community is also family. If you are a senior, there is the senior center too. And there are your on-line friends. If you are all alone, you already have a problem. And we often do define ourselves thru our co-workers. Can you co-workers help you?
Quote from: Baruch on March 17, 2020, 08:30:46 AM
You will have this anxiety all your life. It is a condition of both normal and abnormal times. Do you have a social safety net? Not welfare necessarily, but family and friends? I am lucky in that I can rely on my daughter and my ex, and all three of us are now in the same town for the first time in years. My UU community is also family. If you are a senior, there is the senior center too. And there are your on-line friends. If you are all alone, you already have a problem. And we often do define ourselves thru our co-workers. Can you co-workers help you?
I am upper management and a father and husband. So I have a social net, but everyone looks to me for advice. Or maybe it just feels that easy.
I can’t speak to your obvious successes in life due to prayer, but for me, nothing ever got better due to praying....or worse. It was the same for me as it was for other people, some praying to different gods. If your prayers worked so well, why would you ever decide to abandon such success?
The Christian god punishing all of us severely because you specifically strayed away from the flock does sound like his style.
Goddamn it detective, delude yourself into believing again, people are suffering out there.
Or, you know, we're not that important to the universe that our mere thoughts change reality and call upon succes or calamity.
There are dark times ahead, regarding health and economic collapse, make no mistake. Be the best pillar you can be for your network, especially in these times of social isolation. Through words and actions, not through the thoughts which you can not control, but instead simply are.
Quote from: AcrobaticDetective on March 16, 2020, 09:20:05 PM
First of all, just to fill you in on my own personal version of crazy, a part of me blames my deconversion for the pandemic.
Amazingly stupid.
Quote from: Baruch on March 17, 2020, 08:20:47 AM
Are you a virus researcher? Find out what the Public Health Department says, and do that. You should have been washing your hands all along.
I realized how stupid, and disgusting, my aunt really is now, when she visited my mum, used her bathroom, and didn't wash her hands. In a time when we're being told to.
needless to say I wiped down all surfaces in her bathroom and kitchen that day.
Quote from: AcrobaticDetective on March 17, 2020, 12:20:49 PM
I am upper management and a father and husband. So I have a social net, but everyone looks to me for advice. Or maybe it just feels that easy.
Be honest with all of them. Your wife must have hid your "super suit" while washing it ;-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2qRDMHbXaM
Quote from: Baruch on March 17, 2020, 10:24:02 PM
Be honest with all of them. Your wife must have hid your "super suit" while washing it ;-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2qRDMHbXaM
lol
Quote from: aitm on March 17, 2020, 03:32:28 PM
I can’t speak to your obvious successes in life due to prayer, but for me, nothing ever got better due to praying....or worse. It was the same for me as it was for other people, some praying to different gods. If your prayers worked so well, why would you ever decide to abandon such success?
I'm assuming that's rhetorical. Good point.
Comfort is a disease.
Quote from: Gregory on March 18, 2020, 01:35:47 AM
Comfort is a disease.
It is a brand of TP. If you don't use TP, you get a disease.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on March 17, 2020, 06:28:27 PM
Amazingly stupid.
Naw, that's just parts of religion that are hard to shake: the assumption of agency for events without agency, and assumption of personal guilt for events that happen at about the same time that you did something that religion frowns upon. It's
very hard to shake. Certainly in Catholicism, we were taught that "everything happens for a reason" and that we should feel guilty about pretty much everything. It takes a while to purge that kind of programming so that you no longer have certain knee-jerk reactions.
Quote from: AcrobaticDetective on March 16, 2020, 09:20:05 PM
First of all, just to fill you in on my own personal version of crazy, a part of me blames my deconversion for the pandemic. I am a rational person who knows better, but the thought is haunting.
I can understand that because of the power of indoctrination. You had been brainwashed as a child, a simple task since your brain was an empty slate. I experienced the same thing when in my 50s I recognized I was an atheist. After years of struggle, quests to find God, and my own version of souped up apologetics, I just walked away from theism, but I was still afraid of Hell. It makes no rational sense to fear what you do not believe, but it was an emotional leftover from my training as a child. It diminished over a year or two and disappeared.
With all the flim flam artists on evangelical TV claiming with great authority that tornadoes are caused by gays, women addicted to abortions, or whatever thing is pissing them off at the moment, I can understand that many people actually believe that kind of non sequitur, and I can understand it being difficult to shake for a person coming out into the light. But your thoughts will pass if you don't feed them. Also, try to take your ego out of the equation. You are simply not that important or powerful that you can hurl a plague at mankind. You know this of course.
All Republican conspiracy theories wrong?
All Democrat conspiracy theories right?
Even with no G-d, that doesn't make anyone automatically truthful, even atheists.
Quote from: trdsf on March 18, 2020, 07:25:15 AM
Naw, that's just parts of religion that are hard to shake: the assumption of agency for events without agency, and assumption of personal guilt for events that happen at about the same time that you did something that religion frowns upon. It's very hard to shake. Certainly in Catholicism, we were taught that "everything happens for a reason" and that we should feel guilty about pretty much everything. It takes a while to purge that kind of programming so that you no longer have certain knee-jerk reactions.
Precisely
Quote from: trdsf on March 18, 2020, 07:25:15 AM
Naw, that's just parts of religion that are hard to shake: the assumption of agency for events without agency, and assumption of personal guilt for events that happen at about the same time that you did something that religion frowns upon. It's very hard to shake. Certainly in Catholicism, we were taught that "everything happens for a reason" and that we should feel guilty about pretty much everything. It takes a while to purge that kind of programming so that you no longer have certain knee-jerk reactions.
Still amazingly stupid. Excuses or not.
I've noticed that half the recent junk mail I'm getting in my inbox is from some bank, company, or political party party wanting me to know that during the Coronavirus crisis, they are there for me.
Quote from: SGOS on March 18, 2020, 02:13:37 PM
I've noticed that half the recent junk mail I'm getting in my inbox is from some bank, company, or political party party wanting me to know that during the Coronavirus crisis, they are there for me.
Hey, if you ever hit the magic 800, you'll get more goddamn junk mail from everybank and credit card in the world. Both the wife and I hit it bout 8 months ago....throw away damn near a trashcan a month.
I assume 800 must be the perfect credit score.
Quote from: aitm on March 18, 2020, 04:15:06 PM
Hey, if you ever hit the magic 800, you'll get more goddamn junk mail from everybank and credit card in the world. Both the wife and I hit it bout 8 months ago....throw away damn near a trashcan a month.
I have a rolly cart outside the house, sort the mail before I leave the mail box. Good citizen me recycles.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on March 18, 2020, 04:39:48 PM
I have a rolly cart outside the house, sort the mail before I leave the mail box. Good citizen me recycles.
I recycle as well....I’m a good citizen of the world...mostly
Quote from: SGOS on March 18, 2020, 04:31:28 PM
I assume 800 must be the perfect credit score.
No, but it apparently is the start of the onslaught.
Quote from: aitm on March 18, 2020, 04:15:06 PM
Hey, if you ever hit the magic 800, you'll get more goddamn junk mail from everybank and credit card in the world. Both the wife and I hit it bout 8 months ago....throw away damn near a trashcan a month.
I once got an offer of a credit card from Barclays Bank (British) because I often watch British Youtube channels. Only $400 per year annual fee, for the privilege. Should I have also ordered a bowler hat? ;-)
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on March 18, 2020, 02:00:37 PM
Still amazingly stupid. Excuses or not.
We're not talking about logic, we're talking about emotional responses. Knowing intellectually that with rare exceptions spiders are completely harmless does absolutely nothing to alleviate my severe arachnophobia. Humans aren't robots.
Quote from: trdsf on March 18, 2020, 06:26:45 PM
We're not talking about logic, we're talking about emotional responses. Knowing intellectually that with rare exceptions spiders are completely harmless does absolutely nothing to alleviate my severe arachnophobia. Humans aren't robots.
You said nothing about not being stupid. I agree with that.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on March 18, 2020, 07:07:22 PM
You said nothing about not being stupid. I agree with that.
'Stupid' implies being
unable to know better. It is
not stupid, it is a difficult to overcome, deeply rooted emotional response -- this is why Dawkins likens religious indoctrination to child abuse: it creates psychological damage that lasts into adulthood.
Quote from: trdsf on March 19, 2020, 11:01:54 AM
'Stupid' implies being unable to know better. It is not stupid, it is a difficult to overcome, deeply rooted emotional response -- this is why Dawkins likens religious indoctrination to child abuse: it creates psychological damage that lasts into adulthood.
And that's stupid.
Quote from: trdsf on March 19, 2020, 11:15:32 PM
Fine, be an asshole.
Ooh, that hurt. I am wounded to the quick. Romeo, call the EMTs!
I had, for at least 5 years, a lingering fear of Hell after I deconverted, even though I knew in my conscious mind that it was baloney. It was like my emotional state was battling my reasoning abilities on this point. When I finally did get out of that emotional state I felt a sense of joy and relief that's hard to describe. Now I see that negative emotional states isn't something you can reason yourself out of, but something you have to work with to overcome.
Quote from: Sal1981 on March 20, 2020, 09:54:04 AM
I had, for at least 5 years, a lingering fear of Hell after I deconverted, even though I knew in my conscious mind that it was baloney. It was like my emotional state was battling my reasoning abilities on this point. When I finally did get out of that emotional state I felt a sense of joy and relief that's hard to describe. Now I see that negative emotional states isn't something you can reason yourself out of, but something you have to work with to overcome.
That is what I experienced. It really drives home the difference between emotion and logic, and how much our emotion affects behavior and thoughts.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on March 20, 2020, 05:12:43 AM
Ooh, that hurt. I am wounded to the quick. Romeo, call the EMTs!
Well, let me ask you just how the fuck you think it's helpful to someone trying to get out from under the crush of unwarranted guilt and pre-adolescent programming by just standing there waving your middle finger going "You're stupid, you're stupid, you're stupid?"
Whence, you're an asshole. Or if you prefer, you're being an asshole. Personally, I don't see a lot of difference.
I never had that experience. I don’t think I ever bought into it.watching the behavior of the congregation and being from a small town I knew everyone so I was never impressed with the “Christian†behavior. I went to church for the girls plain and simple.
Mom and Dad were not great church goers so they kind of set the bar for need and necessity pretty low. Walking away was more like leaving a bad class, very easy.
I really didn’t even get interested in “studying†religion until my daughter was born. I bought a set of Funk and Wagner encyclopedias and read A to Z...well pretty much and then started writing a book about why I didn’t believes so I could give it to my daughter when she got older. The more I found myself making “factual†statements the more I found myself researching to make sure I was right...wow..was I wrong on a lot of things. That was the beginning of my real education...and the book. Atheist In The Midst..hence my nic.
Quote from: trdsf on March 20, 2020, 09:11:12 PM
Well, let me ask you just how the fuck you think it's helpful to someone trying to get out from under the crush of unwarranted guilt and pre-adolescent programming by just standing there waving your middle finger going "You're stupid, you're stupid, you're stupid?"
Whence, you're an asshole. Or if you prefer, you're being an asshole. Personally, I don't see a lot of difference.
Poor dear, been burned by reality yourself I see.
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on March 17, 2020, 04:45:01 PM
The Christian god punishing all of us severely because you specifically strayed away from the flock does sound like his style.
Goddamn it detective, delude yourself into believing again, people are suffering out there.
Or, you know, we're not that important to the universe that our mere thoughts change reality and call upon succes or calamity.
There are dark times ahead, regarding health and economic collapse, make no mistake. Be the best pillar you can be for your network, especially in these times of social isolation. Through words and actions, not through the thoughts which you can not control, but instead simply are.
The most comforting is that God promises and end to sickness and death. (Isaiah 33:24; Revelation 21:4). Of course, that is then not now. Jesus' prophecies for the "last days" are being fulfilled now (Matthew 24; Luke 21; Mark 13). Pestilence/plague was one of the many things foretold these times "difficult to deal with" (2 Timothy 3:1-5).
The Bible taught the importance of quarantine long before modern medicine taught this. See:
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2018029#h=14:0-15:232
Excerpt:
"Isolating sick people.
The Mosaic Law prescribed keeping people with leprosy separate from others. Not until the plagues of the Middle Ages did medical doctors learn to apply this principle, which is still deemed effective.​â€"Leviticus, chapters 13 and 14."
You really are the total package.
I like how he quarantines women for having a menstrual cycle he doesn’t even understand. Your god is a useless piece of shit.
And let’s not forget how many people he demands be killed for back talking his parents...or even better how may believers he allowed to die because he could never win the first two battles...always the third after he let the majority die....useless god.
Or how his “angels†cowered in a closet and let a man send his, own daughter out to be raped and murdered...yeah your god is all something all right. Fucking useless
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on March 21, 2020, 07:21:58 AM
Poor dear, been burned by reality yourself I see.
Yes, and it's given me a quality called 'empathy'. Try it some time.
Quote from: aitm on March 21, 2020, 01:19:26 PM
I like how he quarantines women for having a menstrual cycle he doesn’t even understand. Your god is a useless piece of shit.
And let’s not forget how many people he demands be killed for back talking his parents...or even better how may believers he allowed to die because he could never win the first two battles...always the third after he let the majority die....useless god.
Or how his “angels†cowered in a closet and let a man send his, own daughter out to be raped and murdered...yeah your god is all something all right. Fucking useless
Now, now. Your missing the big picture here. I'm not sure what that is, but it's probably something.
Quote from: trdsf on March 20, 2020, 09:11:12 PM
Well, let me ask you just how the fuck you think it's helpful to someone trying to get out from under the crush of unwarranted guilt and pre-adolescent programming by just standing there waving your middle finger going "You're stupid, you're stupid, you're stupid?"
Whence, you're an asshole. Or if you prefer, you're being an asshole. Personally, I don't see a lot of difference.
I completely agree and thanks for the support, trdsf.
Quote from: SGOS on March 21, 2020, 01:32:00 PM
Now, now. Your missing the big picture here. I'm not sure what that is, but it's probably something.
Of course, Romans 1:20 involves all thing that can be proven scientifically as per 1 Thessalonians 5:21 - KJV: "prove all things."
I don't want to be sidetracked from thread topic. The reason I referred to the teaching of quarantine in the Bible was to emphasize the importance of quarantine during the present epi/pandemic from the Corona (Covid-19) virus. It is extremely contagious and scientists are still in the learning stage.
But one thing for sure: you can't catch viruses on the internet!
Btw - take comfort in the first serious epidemic during these last days (which started in 1914) foretold by Jesus in Matthew 24; Luke 21; Mark 13 -: the Spanish influenza killed about 20 million people in all but two islands in 1918! This epidemic hopefully will not kill 20 million people - that doesn't seem likely.
Also while the nations do not know the way out (Luke 21:25) - we (those of my religion) lift up our heads:
Luke 21:28
New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures (Study Edition)
28 But as these things start to occur, stand up straight and lift up your heads, because your deliverance is getting near.â€
But, what is the good news of God's kingdom? (Matthew 24:14)
Newt....son. As a rule we don’t allow preaching. We have been very...very tolerant. But stop.
Quote from: trdsf on March 21, 2020, 01:30:49 PM
Yes, and it's given me a quality called 'empathy'. Try it some time.
I'm empathetic for those that earn it.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on March 21, 2020, 07:06:23 PM
I'm empathetic for those that earn it.
Bullshit. You expect robots.
Quote from: trdsf on March 21, 2020, 09:01:24 PM
Bullshit. You expect robots.
You want that because I don't conform to your fantasies. Very weak.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on March 22, 2020, 05:51:28 AM
You want that because I don't conform to your fantasies. Very weak.
No, I want that because it's the civilized and humane thing to be. Very piss-poor humanity, you're showing. I repeat, since you were too much a fucking coward to actually answer the question, how the fuck you think it helps to prance around waving your middle finger going "You're stupid, you're stupid, you're stupid"?
Hint: it doesn't. Now grow the fuck up and be useful, or piss off.
Quote from: aitm on March 21, 2020, 01:19:26 PMOr how his “angels†cowered in a closet and let a man send his, own daughter out to be raped and murdered...yeah your god is all something all right. Fucking useless
Well, that was to teach us...ummm...uhhh...somethingish?
Quote from: Newtonian on March 21, 2020, 06:08:19 PMBtw - take comfort in the first serious epidemic during these last days (which started in 1914)
LOL, these "last" days have been coming on for a good while now. Since you implied that the very last day is nigh (it always is), care to hazard a guess? Cause I can practically guarantee it's wrong. And not based on any actual information, of course, but we already knew that.
I take comfort in the fact that every apocalyptic prediction ever has been to date wrong, so I don't have a whole lot of reason to believe any further ones. At least not those not based on observation and mathematics. Wake me when a legitimate astronomer can point out an asteroid with an orbit that intersects ours on a date certain, don't bother me with this biblical bullshit.
Life is passing me by.
I have been using my isolation time to explore new activities. Homemade sourdough bread requires some serious biochemistry. I am still a few days from enough active starter to finally bake bread. It's alive !
Also made a batch of homemade 24-hour yogurt. So good.
Extra tough, frequent workouts to keep my body (especially->respiratory system) as strong as possible. Long walks in the woods. Avoiding FB, Twitter....so many loose wingnuts and clingy social butterflies who feel the need to breathe on me.
This could be a very long haul. Crying won't help me, praying won't do me no good.
Quote from: Cassia on May 03, 2020, 07:58:58 PM
I have been using my isolation time to explore new activities. Homemade sourdough bread requires some serious biochemistry. I am still a few days from enough active starter to finally bake bread. It's alive !
Also made a batch of homemade 24-hour yogurt. So good.
Extra tough, frequent workouts to keep my body (especially->respiratory system) as strong as possible. Long walks in the woods. Avoiding FB, Twitter....so many loose wingnuts and clingy social butterflies who feel the need to breathe on me.
This could be a very long haul. Crying won't help me, praying won't do me no good.
My wife is at the same stage of sourdough as you are--I wish both of you great success; love my sourdough! She just made a huge batch of yogurt, as well; don't like it or eat it, but she thought it was good. Do what feels good--and crying does help. Sometimes when one is down, totally giving in and having a good cry is very releasing. Just don't stay in that frame of mind for long...........hobbies and crafts are life savers these day--just do what feels good while staying safe. For me, video games and baseball sims and our huge organic garden keep me busy.
Video games and reading. Watching old DVDs.
Quote from: Baruch on May 03, 2020, 09:55:16 PM
Video games and reading. Watching old DVDs.
You forgot--making inane statements on this board. You should simply do more reading and less posting.
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 04, 2020, 09:02:15 AM
You forgot--making inane statements on this board. You should simply do more reading and less posting.
You should visit you cardiologist ... your heart is two sizes too small, Mr Grinch ;-)