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Extraordinary Claims => Religion General Discussion => Christianity => Topic started by: Jagella on March 08, 2020, 05:01:50 PM

Title: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Jagella on March 08, 2020, 05:01:50 PM
I've often wondered if at least the fundamental tenets of Christian beliefs are fabrications--lies, if you will. We should ask if the claims of the Christian religion are not honest mistakes or result from primitive superstitions but are just simply outright deceptions. Also, do Christian clergy and apologists as well as Bible scholars deliberately lie to their listeners and readers? Do creationists lie about evolution in order to lend credibility to their Christian faith?

I think that yes, Christians often do lie to advance their religion. I know of a Christian-sponsored forum that prohibits saying that another member has lied but has no rules against lying! So you can lie all you want to another member, but if you are being lied to, then you dare not point it out.

Such a rule gives liars an obvious advantage. I wonder why the Christian sponsoring that forum slants the playing field for dishonest people.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: LoriPinkAngel on March 08, 2020, 05:06:34 PM
I've grown to think of it more as an overgrown myth than as a lie.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Sal1981 on March 08, 2020, 05:09:13 PM
I don't think Christians purposely lie. They're just either trapped in faith-based thinking, or just accept it at face value, or both.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Baruch on March 08, 2020, 05:15:04 PM
All facts are facts, but all truths are propaganda?  It is a fact, there are 27 books in the Catholic NT.  What the contents of those books may mean, or what interpreters (Church) may say they mean ... isn't fact.  If I tell you that there are 20 books in the Catholic NT, and I don't know any better, then I am mistaken, not lying.  If I do know better, then I am lying.  If an individual or institution interprets one of the books of the Catholic NT ... that is an editorial.  An editorial honestly given, isn't a lie, just an opinion.  If I give you an editorial, dishonestly (it isn't my real opinion) then I am lying (not about the content, but about my honesty).
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: aitm on March 08, 2020, 05:21:00 PM
Religions are hoped base fabrications, but imbedded due to force. No religion has had much success in spreading by peaceful means. The sword and gun made religion “true”.
Today the liars are televangelists. Not much doubt about that. What is befuddling is how many ignore the words of their babble and clamor for the lies of the preacher. Hope is desperate. If 50 bucks “guarantees a spot in heaven, the lines are long and the preacher gets wealthy and more powerful. Every con mans dream.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Baruch on March 08, 2020, 05:36:43 PM
Quote from: aitm on March 08, 2020, 05:21:00 PM
Religions are hoped base fabrications, but imbedded due to force. No religion has had much success in spreading by peaceful means. The sword and gun made religion “true”.
Today the liars are televangelists. Not much doubt about that. What is befuddling is how many ignore the words of their babble and clamor for the lies of the preacher. Hope is desperate. If 50 bucks “guarantees a spot in heaven, the lines are long and the preacher gets wealthy and more powerful. Every con mans dream.

All societies involve force.  Hence Stewie keeps trying to kill his mother in retaliation.  If force is invalid, so is the US, so is all society.

Yes, anyone who says "pay me $$ for salvation", is most likely a used car salesman or worse.  In that case "buyer beware".
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Unbeliever on March 08, 2020, 05:46:30 PM
I can't say how much the average Christian knowingly lies to further their religion (as opposed to just regular lies), but the Christian leaders almost certainly do. The televangelists who fleece the flock with the most outrageous hucksterism aren't the only ones who do, either, I bet:




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-C3trU9ljw



It goes way back to the founding "Fathers" of the "Church," the one that was an amalgamation of several sects already in existence by the time the "Bishops" took control, thanks to Constantine.



Here are just a few good quotes from some "august" personages:

Pious Lies (http://nullgod.com/index.php/topic,49.0.html)




Quote from:  Eusebius of Nicomedia
It will sometimes be necessary to use falsehood for the benefit of those who need such a mode of treatment.

Quote from: Catholic Encyclical X, 195
We [Catholics] are also under an obligation to keep secrets faithfully. And sometimes the easiest way to fulfill that duty is to say what is false, or to tell a lie.


Quote from: Edwin F. Healy, S. J., "Moral Guidance", 1960
At times one is obliged in concience to veil the truth, for there are secrets to be guarded and detractions to be avoided. Sometimes silence will not suffice to maintain the secret which one is trying to guard. In fact, it may happen that silence would betray the secret. Hence there must be some licit means of concealing the truth when necessary. This licit means is the broad mental reservation....One way of putting the question is to ask if a false statement is always a lie. Some theologians answer in the negative....Sometimes it is necessary to make a false statement in order to protect secret knowledge. Silence or the use of mental reservation is not sufficient; the only way to protect the secret is to make a statement contrary to what....you know to be true.

Quote from: Beausobre (theologian)
Christians not only do not say what they think, but they do say the direct contrary of what they think. Philosophers in their cabinets; out of them they are content with fables, though they well know they are fables. Nay, more: they deliver honest men to the executioner, for having uttered what they themselves know to be true. How many atheists and pagans have burned holy men under the pretext of heresy? Every day do hypocrites consecrate, and make people adore the host, though as well convinced as I am, that it is nothing but a bit of bread.

Quote from: Gregory of Nanzianus (in a letter to St. Jerome)
A little jargon is all that is necessary to impose upon the people. The less they comprehend, the more they admire. Our forefathers and doctors have often said, not what they thought, but what circumstances and necessity dictated.




There are more, but I think this makes the point.


Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Unbeliever on March 08, 2020, 06:11:12 PM
And besides, even their "savior", Jesus, lied. He lied about not going to a feast, and then he went in secret.

John 7:8
QuoteGo ye up unto this feast: I go not up yet unto this feast; for my time is not yet full come.
When he had said these words unto them, he abode still in Galilee.
But when his brethren were gone up, then went he also up unto the feast, not openly, but as it were in secret.

And he also lied at his "trial," when he told Pilot that he had only ever taught in the open, in the synagogue. He taught in parables so people wouldn't understand what he was talking about. And, obviously, he taught places other than the synagogue, like the sermon on the mount (or was it a plain?).



Matthew 13:10-15
QuoteAnd the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.


And a few other incidental lies along the way:

https://www.evilbible.com/evil-bible-home-page/jesus-lied/
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Mike Cl on March 08, 2020, 07:35:14 PM
To one degree or another, all christians lie, if only to themselves.  The kindest word one can use is willful blindness.  The leaders--every single man and woman who is a christian leader, is a liar.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: SGOS on March 08, 2020, 08:39:18 PM
Quote from: Unbeliever on March 08, 2020, 06:11:12 PM
John 7:8
And he also lied at his "trial," when he told Pilot that he had only ever taught in the open, in the synagogue. He taught in parables so people wouldn't understand what he was talking about. And, obviously, he taught places other than the synagogue, like the sermon on the mount (or was it a plain?).
I've just to say this even if it's not right on topic.  Even as a young believer in Jesus, I never understood the teaching in parables thing.  Probably because it was taught to me with over the top enthusiasm.  My Sunday School teachers made such a big deal about it.  "Jesus teaching in parables.  How wonderful is that?  He taught in parables.  It's like a miracle."

OK, I learned a Hell of a lot more in elementary school than any of Jesus' disciples, and my teachers didn't go around yammering in parables all the time. In fact, it was never.  Parables are interesting stories... maybe, but they require a lot of teaching time to point out simple things like "Be nice to others, and people will be nice to you," which is kind of true, but not wholly true.  And what bothered me more was that his parables were not even that thought provoking.  I read the gospels, and I remember Jesus talking about a lot of stuff, and it seems like most of it was not in parable format.  Why this was such a big deal with my Sunday School teachers, didn't even make sense to me.

It's like I was being taught that I should make it a point to bring up Jesus teaching in parables at every dinner, and with my friends on the playground, and expect my friends and family to be flabbergasted by the miracle of Jesus, who taught in parables.

When I taught 6th grade, we learned about parables, and as a fun exercise, I had my students write creative parables of their own involving talking animals that taught some meaningful life lesson.  Some of them were actually pretty good.  One of my favorites, which I didn't openly praise in class, was written by a class rebel and was titled "The Cock and the Ass."
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Hydra009 on March 08, 2020, 08:44:48 PM
Quote from: Sal1981 on March 08, 2020, 05:09:13 PM
I don't think Christians purposely lie. They're just either trapped in faith-based thinking, or just accept it at face value, or both.
Eh...maybe not often, but I find it hard to believe that people who "find" holy relics and profit off it are doing so in good faith.  At least, not many of them.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Jagella on March 08, 2020, 09:28:50 PM
Quote from: LoriPinkAngel on March 08, 2020, 05:06:34 PM
I've grown to think of it more as an overgrown myth than as a lie.

What's the difference? Many people understand myth as not necessarily fiction but as a story that tells a lesson. That said, almost all myth is fiction. Anyway, Christianity is a myth that indoctrinates people with the lesson that they must obey authority--the authority the church leaders call "God"--at all costs. Of course, the clergy masquerade as this God claiming to speak for him.

So not all Christians necessarily lie to promote their beliefs. A lie must involve two parties--the liars and the "lie-ees." Some lie, and some are lied to. Most Christians are lied to.

Anyway, it's refreshing for me to be able to tell the truth about lies. I hated that ridiculous gag rule in the other forum prohibiting telling the truth about another person's lies. Lies, I suppose, were what the administrator thought was what kept the Christians in his forum going.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Baruch on March 08, 2020, 09:29:56 PM
Teaching in parables is rabbinic ...

A Mashal (Hebrew: משל) is a short parable with a moral lesson or religious allegory, called a nimshal. "Mashal" is used also to designate other forms in rhetoric, such as the fable and apothegm.

Remember, most people then and now are illiterate and the non-illiterate/intellectuals are going to Hell ;-)
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Baruch on March 08, 2020, 09:31:00 PM
Quote from: Jagella on March 08, 2020, 09:28:50 PM
What's the difference? Many people understand myth as not necessarily fiction but as a story that tells a lesson. That said, almost all myth is fiction. Anyway, Christianity is a myth that indoctrinates people with the lesson that they must obey authority--the authority the church leaders call "God"--at all costs. Of course, the clergy masquerade as this God claiming to speak for him.

So not all Christians necessarily lie to promote their beliefs. A lie must involve two parties--the liars and the "lie-ees." Some lie, and some are lied to. Most Christians are lied to.

Anyway, it's refreshing for me to be able to tell the truth about lies. I hated that ridiculous gag rule in the other forum prohibiting telling the truth about another person's lies. Lies, I suppose, were what the administrator thought was what kept the Christians in his forum going.

Obey authority?  As in parents, teachers, police?  Kill them all, emulate Stewie the sociopathic baby.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Jagella on March 08, 2020, 10:39:37 PM
Quote from: Baruch on March 08, 2020, 09:31:00 PM
Obey authority?  As in parents, teachers, police?  Kill them all, emulate Stewie the sociopathic baby.

I said "obey authority at all cost." I do hope you will agree with me that we should never obey authority at all cost. Parents--should children obey their parents' efforts to abuse or neglect them? Teachers--should kids obey a teacher's sexual advances? Police--should we allow a rogue cop to gun down innocent people?

I don't think so. All authority should be limited in what it can do. Corrupt authority should be resisted and overthrown if necessary. These important lessons are opposed by Christian beliefs that posit a God that should be obeyed no matter what he dictates. It's a foolish and dangerous belief.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Jagella on March 08, 2020, 10:43:06 PM
Quote from: Sal1981 on March 08, 2020, 05:09:13 PM
I don't think Christians purposely lie. They're just either trapped in faith-based thinking, or just accept it at face value, or both.

Many Christians, I think it's fair to say, are lied to rather than lie to others about their beliefs. It often seems, though, that they are lying to themselves. Personally, I think the worst way to lie is to lie to one's own self.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Baruch on March 09, 2020, 08:35:03 AM
Quote from: Jagella on March 08, 2020, 10:43:06 PM
Many Christians, I think it's fair to say, are lied to rather than lie to others about their beliefs. It often seems, though, that they are lying to themselves. Personally, I think the worst way to lie is to lie to one's own self.

To your own self be true.  The unexamined life isn't worth living - Socrates
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Baruch on March 09, 2020, 08:39:19 AM
Quote from: Jagella on March 08, 2020, 10:39:37 PM
I said "obey authority at all cost." I do hope you will agree with me that we should never obey authority at all cost. Parents--should children obey their parents' efforts to abuse or neglect them? Teachers--should kids obey a teacher's sexual advances? Police--should we allow a rogue cop to gun down innocent people?

I don't think so. All authority should be limited in what it can do. Corrupt authority should be resisted and overthrown if necessary. These important lessons are opposed by Christian beliefs that posit a God that should be obeyed no matter what he dictates. It's a foolish and dangerous belief.

Are you paranoid?  Did you kill the authority figures in your life? (rhetorical questions, don't take them personally).

If you are an anarchist, then you have a sociopathy on a political level.  Good luck with that.

If you are a criminal, a rebel, a traitor ... then you have a bigger problem.

Per Sartre ... I can always say "no" to demands.  He was in the French Resistance.  But can we say no to our lunatic nature?  But liberty isn't just individual, it is social.  This is why liberty and freedom are not the same word.  In liberty I participate in giving authority power over myself, I am not a victim.  This is true even in Nazi occupation.  Sartre was not a victim.  He would roll his eyes in Gallic disdain at today's freedom fighters.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: LoriPinkAngel on March 09, 2020, 03:05:18 PM
Quote from: Jagella on March 08, 2020, 10:43:06 PM
Many Christians, I think it's fair to say, are lied to rather than lie to others about their beliefs. It often seems, though, that they are lying to themselves. Personally, I think the worst way to lie is to lie to one's own self.

I feel that towards the end of my bout with Christianity I was desperately lying to myself.  I needed anything to cling to to feel like there was some kind of support for me.  How mistaken I was.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on March 09, 2020, 03:37:12 PM
People say they believe because it's the safe way to go. Honesty is never an issue with believers.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Jagella on March 09, 2020, 05:15:25 PM
Quote from: Baruch on March 08, 2020, 05:15:04 PM
All facts are facts, but all truths are propaganda?  It is a fact, there are 27 books in the Catholic NT.  What the contents of those books may mean, or what interpreters (Church) may say they mean ... isn't fact.  If I tell you that there are 20 books in the Catholic NT, and I don't know any better, then I am mistaken, not lying.  If I do know better, then I am lying.  If an individual or institution interprets one of the books of the Catholic NT ... that is an editorial.  An editorial honestly given, isn't a lie, just an opinion.  If I give you an editorial, dishonestly (it isn't my real opinion) then I am lying (not about the content, but about my honesty).

I'm well aware that many Christians are just sharing an opinion or might be making honest mistakes. However, much of what they say that is wrong does not appear to be an honest mistake or an opinion but a lie.

Faith healing, I believe, is a good example of a Christian deception. Peter Popoff, for example, has been exposed as a "fake healer" duping desperate people out of their money as he falsely claims to be able to heal them. So here we have a liar (Popoff) and those lied to (the Christians he fleeces).

Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Jagella on March 09, 2020, 09:25:05 PM
Quote from: aitm on March 08, 2020, 05:21:00 PM
Religions are hoped base fabrications, but imbedded due to force. No religion has had much success in spreading by peaceful means. The sword and gun made religion “true”.
Today the liars are televangelists. Not much doubt about that. What is befuddling is how many ignore the words of their babble and clamor for the lies of the preacher. Hope is desperate. If 50 bucks “guarantees a spot in heaven, the lines are long and the preacher gets wealthy and more powerful. Every con mans dream.

You've made two very astute observations here!

Not only have religions not bothered to evangelize peacefully unless the secular state prohibits their using force, but have you noticed that few if any religions seek a level and open playing field? I don't know of very many religions that invite criticism and scrutiny that they may prove their claims under conditions that disallow con-artistry. The Bible, for example, does not allow God to be tested (Deuteronomy 6:16). Why would an all-mighty God fear being tested?

And yes, con artists dream of emptying the wallets of people as they literally sing his praises. Any charlatan would love those he scams to insist that they give him money no matter what anybody says. The clergy have created followers whose ears are deaf to those who warn them that they are being ripped off.

And Christian leaders don't pay one red cent in taxes.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Baruch on March 09, 2020, 09:30:36 PM
You haven't been ripped off, until you are ripped of by a politician using ideology ;-(
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Gregory on March 10, 2020, 03:19:40 AM
The lies that we tell ourselves are harmless enough if we are not harmed by them.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Jagella on March 10, 2020, 09:08:40 AM
Quote from: Unbeliever on March 08, 2020, 05:46:30 PM
I can't say how much the average Christian knowingly lies to further their religion (as opposed to just regular lies), but the Christian leaders almost certainly do. The televangelists who fleece the flock with the most outrageous hucksterism aren't the only ones who do, either, I bet...

Here are just a few good quotes from some "august" personages...

In a strange sort of way I don't completely disagree with those "august personages" in that lying is sometimes necessary to avoid greater harm. You may be acquainted with the scenario of the SS banging on your door as they hunt down Jews. If a lie can save the Jews you have hidden in your basement, then the right thing to do is to lie to the SS!

So as far as Christian leaders lying to defend the faith is concerned, they can argue that if a lie can save souls, then that lie is arguably morally acceptable. Moreover, generally there's nothing inherently illogical in lying to defend the truth. To do so does not violate any rule of valid reasoning.

Therefore I think this whole issue boils down to the need to lie at all. If Christian apologists have good evidence for their beliefs, then it seems unnecessary to lie to defend those beliefs. Christian leaders lying doesn't make them more dishonest than a lot of people; it just exposes their knowing that they have little reason to believe what they do.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: SGOS on March 10, 2020, 09:35:20 AM
Quote from: Jagella on March 10, 2020, 09:08:40 AM
If Christian apologists have good evidence for their beliefs, then it seems unnecessary to lie to defend those beliefs. Christian leaders lying doesn't make them more dishonest than a lot of people; it just exposes their knowing that they have little reason to believe what they do.
This one is big for me because the whole debate about religion in my mind follows this unfounded assumption that a god exists.  But people seem to be most impassioned over beliefs they cannot prove, and in the absence of facts, lying to yourself or anyone else is the only recourse a person has when they don't actually know.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Baruch on March 10, 2020, 11:22:49 AM
Quote from: Gregory on March 10, 2020, 03:19:40 AM
The lies that we tell ourselves are harmless enough if we are not harmed by them.

There is no boon in this world, only harm.  It is always fatal, often by self-harm (alcoholism etc).  Mistakes, not just self deception or mutual deception, are harmful.  Hence it pays to avoid mistakes (turning the wrong way on a one-way street as I did several times in my life).
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Baruch on March 10, 2020, 11:25:53 AM
Quote from: SGOS on March 10, 2020, 09:35:20 AM
This one is big for me because the whole debate about religion in my mind follows this unfounded assumption that a god exists.  But people seem to be most impassioned over beliefs they cannot prove, and in the absence of facts, lying to yourself or anyone else is the only recourse a person has when they don't actually know.

There is difference over what constitutes evidence, unless you work for the Ministry of Truth.  But yes, people are impassioned over many things, including assumed beliefs.  TDS anyone?  Saying a non-fact, when not knowing any better, is mistaken, not lying.  Are you morally judgmental?
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Unbeliever on March 10, 2020, 01:42:40 PM
Quote from: Jagella on March 09, 2020, 09:25:05 PM
but have you noticed that few if any religions seek a level and open playing field?


Just like any other corporate business, which also does not like a level and open playing field.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Unbeliever on March 10, 2020, 01:44:50 PM
Quote from: Jagella on March 10, 2020, 09:08:40 AM
In a strange sort of way I don't completely disagree with those "august personages" in that lying is sometimes necessary to avoid greater harm. You may be acquainted with the scenario of the SS banging on your door as they hunt down Jews. If a lie can save the Jews you have hidden in your basement, then the right thing to do is to lie to the SS!

So as far as Christian leaders lying to defend the faith is concerned, they can argue that if a lie can save souls, then that lie is arguably morally acceptable. Moreover, generally there's nothing inherently illogical in lying to defend the truth. To do so does not violate any rule of valid reasoning.

Therefore I think this whole issue boils down to the need to lie at all. If Christian apologists have good evidence for their beliefs, then it seems unnecessary to lie to defend those beliefs. Christian leaders lying doesn't make them more dishonest than a lot of people; it just exposes their knowing that they have little reason to believe what they do.

I also don't disagree that there are often times when lying is necessary. I was just pointing out that Christian "leaders" are not averse to doing it.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Blackleaf on March 10, 2020, 02:13:56 PM
Quote from: Jagella on March 09, 2020, 05:15:25 PM
I'm well aware that many Christians are just sharing an opinion or might be making honest mistakes. However, much of what they say that is wrong does not appear to be an honest mistake or an opinion but a lie.

Faith healing, I believe, is a good example of a Christian deception. Peter Popoff, for example, has been exposed as a "fake healer" duping desperate people out of their money as he falsely claims to be able to heal them. So here we have a liar (Popoff) and those lied to (the Christians he fleeces).



Only thing I don't like about this video is that it's from a Christian source trying to point fingers at the "fake Christian" for leading people from the "truth." They end it with a Bible verse.

"For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths." (2 Timothy 4:3-4)

They apparently don't see the irony in this passage... The verse puts the blame on the victims for putting the "teachers" on a pedestal. But in reality, it is the atmosphere created by the religion that makes people receptive to Popoff's message. The victims were taught by their religion that believing what you're told without question is a virtue, and skepticism is of the devil.

As for turning away from the truth for a myth? Yeah, sure. They accepted the myth that a modern faith healer is actually healing people, as opposed to the "truth" of an ancient faith healer raising himself from the dead and no one writing about it until half a century later...
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Jagella on March 10, 2020, 04:55:06 PM
Quote from: Unbeliever on March 08, 2020, 06:11:12 PM
And besides, even their "savior", Jesus, lied. He lied about not going to a feast, and then he went in secret.

John 7:8
And he also lied at his "trial," when he told Pilot that he had only ever taught in the open, in the synagogue. He taught in parables so people wouldn't understand what he was talking about. And, obviously, he taught places other than the synagogue, like the sermon on the mount (or was it a plain?).



Matthew 13:10-15

I've often tried to inform Christians that the Christ of the gospel story was no paragon of virtue, yet they insist he was the greatest! In addition to lying, he insulted his enemies calling them fools and falsely accused them of murder, he split up families, he had a reputation as a drunkard, and he knowingly led his followers into life-threatening situations.

Isn't it amazing what years of indoctrination can do to people's views about a person they are told to believe?
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Unbeliever on March 10, 2020, 05:04:42 PM
Most Christians have never read the Bible all the way through, either the OT or the NT. So they don't know what they're talking about.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Baruch on March 10, 2020, 08:20:58 PM
Quote from: Jagella on March 10, 2020, 04:55:06 PM
I've often tried to inform Christians that the Christ of the gospel story was no paragon of virtue, yet they insist he was the greatest! In addition to lying, he insulted his enemies calling them fools and falsely accused them of murder, he split up families, he had a reputation as a drunkard, and he knowingly led his followers into life-threatening situations.

Isn't it amazing what years of indoctrination can do to people's views about a person they are told to believe?

Yep.  Not an upstanding Republican American at all ;-)
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Jagella on March 10, 2020, 08:56:41 PM
Quote from: Blackleaf on March 10, 2020, 02:13:56 PM
Only thing I don't like about this video is that it's from a Christian source trying to point fingers at the "fake Christian" for leading people from the "truth." They end it with a Bible verse.

"For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths." (2 Timothy 4:3-4)

They apparently don't see the irony in this passage... The verse puts the blame on the victims for putting the "teachers" on a pedestal. But in reality, it is the atmosphere created by the religion that makes people receptive to Popoff's message. The victims were taught by their religion that believing what you're told without question is a virtue, and skepticism is of the devil.

As for turning away from the truth for a myth? Yeah, sure. They accepted the myth that a modern faith healer is actually healing people, as opposed to the "truth" of an ancient faith healer raising himself from the dead and no one writing about it until half a century later...

Great observations!

Yes, it's really low to indoctrinate people, and then blame those people when they get hurt believing what you said. Christian apologists just won't accept responsibility for what they do to people. I just hope people wake up to this nonsense.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: GSOgymrat on March 12, 2020, 01:49:02 PM
Speaking of lying...

Quack, quack, quack...

https://youtu.be/qWS-Tifde7c

Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Baruch on March 12, 2020, 01:52:41 PM
Well, I don't like the televangelist association.  I don't know the medicine on micro-colloidal silver, except that the drug companies wouldn't support it.  I am eating lots of Vit-C gummies, if it was good enough to kill Linus Pauling (2x Nobelist) it is good enough to kill me ;-)
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Jagella on March 12, 2020, 09:43:30 PM
Quote from: GSOgymrat on March 12, 2020, 01:49:02 PM
Speaking of lying...

Quack, quack, quack...

https://youtu.be/qWS-Tifde7c

I'll never forget the TV-evangelist scandals of the mid 1980s. Coincidentally, the trouble started soon after I lost my Christian faith. The scandals with the Bakkers, Oral Roberts, and later Jimmy Swaggart really served to underscore my new-found knowledge that Christianity is a lie that thrives on lies.

As this video demonstrates, lies just never go obsolete.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Jagella on March 12, 2020, 09:48:41 PM
Quote from: Baruch on March 12, 2020, 01:52:41 PM
Well, I don't like the televangelist association.  I don't know the medicine on micro-colloidal silver, except that the drug companies wouldn't support it.  I am eating lots of Vit-C gummies, if it was good enough to kill Linus Pauling (2x Nobelist) it is good enough to kill me ;-)

At least Pauling wasn't conned into dying as an act of faith in Jesus. Many people, desperate to get over an illness or injury, are taken in by Christian hucksters who claim that Jesus can heal the sick. I just wish Jesus could cure the illness that causes people to believe he's living in the sky.

(https://i1.wp.com/ambaland.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/this-happened-just-now-in-london-jesus-appear-on-sky-god-exists-god-is-great-you-will-receive.jpg)
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Baruch on March 13, 2020, 12:49:24 AM
Placebo etc is iffy, given that it is unclear what effect "positive thinking" (of the patient) of any kind, has on illness/injury recovery.  I am pretty sure that "negative thinking" (of the patient) of any kind, delays illness/injury recovery.  This is why the attitude of the doctor/nurse toward the patient is so important.  Certainly isn't a substitute for regular medicine, if you can get that.  In olden times, there were no doctors available, so placebo etc was the only thing you could use ;-(

Again,  what the drug industry suggests (and doctors have to rely on what they say) ... is capitalist motivated.  Most regular drugs have negative side effects, which can be particularly bad on some patients.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Jagella on March 13, 2020, 11:50:54 AM
Quote from: Baruch on March 13, 2020, 12:49:24 AM
Placebo etc is iffy, given that it is unclear what effect "positive thinking" (of the patient) of any kind, has on illness/injury recovery.  I am pretty sure that "negative thinking" (of the patient) of any kind, delays illness/injury recovery.  This is why the attitude of the doctor/nurse toward the patient is so important.  Certainly isn't a substitute for regular medicine, if you can get that.  In olden times, there were no doctors available, so placebo etc was the only thing you could use ;-(

Again,  what the drug industry suggests (and doctors have to rely on what they say) ... is capitalist motivated.  Most regular drugs have negative side effects, which can be particularly bad on some patients.

Thanks for the observations on the pitfalls of prescription drug usage, but how does that tie in with Christian scammers? Are you saying that there are non Christian scams that are as bad as Christian faith healing?
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Unbeliever on March 13, 2020, 01:37:13 PM
Quote from: Jagella on March 12, 2020, 09:48:41 PM
(https://i1.wp.com/ambaland.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/this-happened-just-now-in-london-jesus-appear-on-sky-god-exists-god-is-great-you-will-receive.jpg)

Well, they do say that Jesus will be coming in the clouds - and there he is!


If it weren't for pareidolia, we'd have no dolia at all!


LOL
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Unbeliever on March 13, 2020, 01:39:31 PM
Quote from: Jagella on March 13, 2020, 11:50:54 AM
Thanks for the observations on the pitfalls of prescription drug usage, but how does that tie in with Christian scammers? Are you saying that there are non Christian scams that are as bad as Christian faith healing?

There's homeopathy, which is a major scam. But even that's still not as bad as "faith healing."
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Baruch on March 13, 2020, 05:56:11 PM
Quote from: Jagella on March 13, 2020, 11:50:54 AM
Thanks for the observations on the pitfalls of prescription drug usage, but how does that tie in with Christian scammers? Are you saying that there are non Christian scams that are as bad as Christian faith healing?

No.  Don't draw wild conclusions because you can read my mind ;-)

Colloidal silver may or may not be good for you.  That is what I responded to, not faith healing.  Others made that connection.  I had a separate response on faith healing vs placebo of the patient vs doctor relationship.  Again, not the same as faith healing.

"BIG PHARMA PREPARES TO PROFIT FROM THE CORONAVIRUS" ... fits here.  Caveat emptor.  A lot of medical science is like tobacco institute science.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Jagella on March 13, 2020, 07:11:10 PM
Quote from: Unbeliever on March 13, 2020, 01:39:31 PM
There's homeopathy, which is a major scam. But even that's still not as bad as "faith healing."

I brought up the subject of the faith-healing scam in a Christian forum. None of the Christians there responded.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Unbeliever on March 13, 2020, 07:12:42 PM
Yeah, that's about par for the course.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on March 14, 2020, 05:43:23 AM
A rational person who believes in the big sky daddy is lying to himself. If he tries to get others to believe it he's lying to them.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Jagella on March 14, 2020, 09:37:46 AM
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on March 14, 2020, 05:43:23 AM
A rational person who believes in the big sky daddy is lying to himself. If he tries to get others to believe it he's lying to them.

Belief in the "sky daddy" I think in many cases is a self-deception. I've pointed out to Christians many times that the god they believe in is The Invisible Man In The Sky (TIMITS). I backed up my TIMITS model of God in a Christian forum by citing Bible verses demonstrating the Judeo-Christian belief in a god who is invisible, a man, and in the sky. The result was that the moderator in that Christian forum told me not to say "TIMITS"! He said that it was insulting to do so. The Christians there denied the TIMITS model of their god no matter what the evidence for it was.

So the moral of the story is that Christians will deny their own god if they face what it really is. They prefer a god who is nebulous so that they need not face what that god clearly is. A clear view of that god is a truth they must deny.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: SGOS on March 14, 2020, 10:15:50 AM
The first time I saw a faith healer on TV, it was an experience.  He walked up to the sick guy and slammed both of his hands against the guy's chest, knocking him backwards into the arms of an assistant to keep him from falling on the floor.  This makes sense.  If I guy is really sick, you got to knock him hard and shout at his sickness at the same time.  If he's possessed by a demon, you got to whack him with everything you've got, and even that may not be enough. You may have to send him to the floor and stomp on him, but in the end Jesus will prevail.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Baruch on March 14, 2020, 12:48:00 PM
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on March 14, 2020, 05:43:23 AM
A rational person who believes in the big sky daddy is lying to himself. If he tries to get others to believe it he's lying to them.

People who think their government will save them, are lying to themselves?  Lying to yourself is necessary to avoid insanity.  I rely on my government, even though it is insane to do so.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Baruch on March 14, 2020, 12:49:06 PM
Quote from: Jagella on March 14, 2020, 09:37:46 AM
Belief in the "sky daddy" I think in many cases is a self-deception. I've pointed out to Christians many times that the god they believe in is The Invisible Man In The Sky (TIMITS). I backed up my TIMITS model of God in a Christian forum by citing Bible verses demonstrating the Judeo-Christian belief in a god who is invisible, a man, and in the sky. The result was that the moderator in that Christian forum told me not to say "TIMITS"! He said that it was insulting to do so. The Christians there denied the TIMITS model of their god no matter what the evidence for it was.

So the moral of the story is that Christians will deny their own god if they face what it really is. They prefer a god who is nebulous so that they need not face what that god clearly is. A clear view of that god is a truth they must deny.

Why are you concerned about other people?  You have freed yourself.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Jagella on March 14, 2020, 01:22:46 PM
Quote from: SGOS on March 14, 2020, 10:15:50 AM
The first time I saw a faith healer on TV, it was an experience.  He walked up to the sick guy and slammed both of his hands against the guy's chest, knocking him backwards into the arms of an assistant to keep him from falling on the floor.  This makes sense.  If I guy is really sick, you got to knock him hard and shout at his sickness at the same time.  If he's possessed by a demon, you got to whack him with everything you've got, and even that may not be enough. You may have to send him to the floor and stomp on him, but in the end Jesus will prevail.

People have been hurt and even killed by Christian faith healers and exorcists in ways similar to what you have described here. Faith healing is a public-health threat, but politicians won't touch it fearing all those Christians who won't vote for anybody who has "attacked" their religion.

I should also point out that atheists should take it easy with the people who have been scammed or are being scammed by faith healers. Most of the faith healers' victims are not gullible or stupid; they are suffering and are desperate to have their suffering alleviated. We atheists should try to help such people warning them they are being scammed, but we should always be respectful.

Finally, let me explain that I personally know about faith healing and other Christian scams. As a Christian I was duped out of about $900. I remember seeing a faith healer who, not being able to heal me, blamed me for the failed effort telling me that as long as I remain injured, it was due to my unbelief.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Jagella on March 14, 2020, 01:25:51 PM
Quote from: Baruch on March 14, 2020, 12:49:06 PM
Why are you concerned about other people?  You have freed yourself.

I'm concerned about other people because I want them to be free too. I think we're all better off without religion assuming we do not adopt some other evil.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: SGOS on March 14, 2020, 01:29:19 PM
Quote from: Jagella on March 14, 2020, 01:22:46 PM
I should also point out that atheists should take it easy with the people who have been scammed or are being scammed by faith healers. Most of the faith healers' victims are not gullible or stupid; they are suffering and are desperate to have their suffering alleviated. We atheists should try to help such people warning them they are being scammed, but we should always be respectful.
I agree. I figured I could get away with being a dick here, because there is a small chance that a vulnerable believer would ever read it.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Unbeliever on March 14, 2020, 01:30:10 PM
Yeah, they always have the excuse of "You just don't have enough faith!"
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Baruch on March 14, 2020, 03:59:10 PM
Quote from: Jagella on March 14, 2020, 01:25:51 PM
I'm concerned about other people because I want them to be free too. I think we're all better off without religion assuming we do not adopt some other evil.

That is the liberal position of Alexander the Great, Shi Huang Di, Julius Caesar, Leon Trotksy ... we need to liberate the world, for its own good, to bring the benefit of "wokeness" to the dirty barbarians. I don't claim to know what is best for other people.  I am not even sure what is best for myself.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Jagella on March 14, 2020, 05:50:55 PM
Quote from: SGOS on March 14, 2020, 01:29:19 PM
I agree. I figured I could get away with being a dick here, because there is a small chance that a vulnerable believer would ever read it.

I certainly understand anybody getting a bit disgusted with people who just won't listen and continue to hurt themselves. But Christian indoctrination is very powerful. It's like telling a person to stop smoking to avoid cancer, but they continue to smoke. They don't continue to smoke because they're foolish--they keep smoking because they're addicted. Religion is like an addiction in which people cannot stop harming themselves even if they know they're harming themselves.

So I'd advise you to respectfully warn people if you know they're involved with faith healers.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Jagella on March 14, 2020, 05:53:03 PM
Quote from: Unbeliever on March 14, 2020, 01:30:10 PM
Yeah, they always have the excuse of "You just don't have enough faith!"

If a lack of faith is the problem, then the faith healer could be held guilty. His lack of faith could be the culprit in a case of a sick person not being cured. Why blame the victim?
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Unbeliever on March 14, 2020, 05:56:56 PM
Why blame the victim? Isn't that obvious?
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Baruch on March 14, 2020, 06:40:57 PM
Quote from: Unbeliever on March 14, 2020, 05:56:56 PM
Why blame the victim? Isn't that obvious?

To not do the wrong thing, would overturn civilization!
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Jagella on March 14, 2020, 07:22:37 PM
Quote from: Unbeliever on March 14, 2020, 05:56:56 PM
Why blame the victim? Isn't that obvious?

I'm not sure what you're asking. Can you rephrase the question?

Anyway, I hope you agree that we should not ridicule the sick and the injured. We should ridicule the fake healers.

But--hey--I just can't resist this one. LOL

Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Unbeliever on March 14, 2020, 07:26:36 PM
Quote from: Jagella on March 14, 2020, 07:22:37 PM
I'm not sure what you're asking. Can you rephrase the question?

Well, it's obvious that they blame the victim so the money will keep rolling in.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Hydra009 on March 14, 2020, 07:42:36 PM
Quote from: Gregory on March 10, 2020, 03:19:40 AM
The lies that we tell ourselves are harmless enough if we are not harmed by them.
Depends on what you're lying about.  Even seemingly trivial stuff (like lying about a pregnancy) can lead to some major unforeseen problems down the road.

And arguably, opening the door and weighing hearsay stories the same as scientific evidence in general is pretty damn disasterous in the long term, no matter how innocuous it seems in the short term.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Jagella on March 14, 2020, 09:33:00 PM
Quote from: Unbeliever on March 14, 2020, 07:26:36 PM
Well, it's obvious that they blame the victim so the money will keep rolling in.

Oh--of course. If the fake healer takes the blame, then it would be bad for business.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on March 15, 2020, 02:42:51 PM
Quote from: Jagella on March 14, 2020, 09:37:46 AM
Belief in the "sky daddy" I think in many cases is a self-deception.
That's what I said.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Gregory on March 16, 2020, 04:45:58 AM
Religion is nothing but a damn lie.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Newtonian on March 16, 2020, 05:38:38 AM
Quote from: Jagella on March 08, 2020, 05:01:50 PM
I've often wondered if at least the fundamental tenets of Christian beliefs are fabrications--lies, if you will. We should ask if the claims of the Christian religion are not honest mistakes or result from primitive superstitions but are just simply outright deceptions. Also, do Christian clergy and apologists as well as Bible scholars deliberately lie to their listeners and readers? Do creationists lie about evolution in order to lend credibility to their Christian faith?

I think that yes, Christians often do lie to advance their religion. I know of a Christian-sponsored forum that prohibits saying that another member has lied but has no rules against lying! So you can lie all you want to another member, but if you are being lied to, then you dare not point it out.

Such a rule gives liars an obvious advantage. I wonder why the Christian sponsoring that forum slants the playing field for dishonest people.

Yes, and it is why some hate my religion (Jehovah's Witnesses) because we expose the lies and deceptions taught in Christendom - like observing December 25th as the birth date of Jesus when in actuality this was a pagan observance - the Roman Saturnalia in worship of the Sun (not the Son).

Or Easter which does not come from the Bible but from ancient worship of Babylonia Ishtar which corresponds to Astarte, etc  - goddess of fertility - which is why the bunnies and eggs for example.   

Or the trinity which is not only illogical but also not taught in the Bible.

Or the immorality of the human soul (the Bible says the soul dies at the death of the person - Ezekiel 18:4,20 KJV; Ecclesiastes 3:19; 9:5,10).   Why would we need a resurrection if we have immortal souls?   Illogical to say the least!
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Baruch on March 16, 2020, 06:39:21 AM
Quote from: Gregory on March 16, 2020, 04:45:58 AM
Religion is nothing but a damn lie.

Atheists don't believe in damnation, so damn lies are oxymorons for them ;-)
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Baruch on March 16, 2020, 06:43:52 AM
Quote from: Newtonian on March 16, 2020, 05:38:38 AM
Yes, and it is why some hate my religion (Jehovah's Witnesses) because we expose the lies and deceptions taught in Christendom - like observing December 25th as the birth date of Jesus when in actuality this was a pagan observance - the Roman Saturnalia in worship of the Sun (not the Son).

Or Easter which does not come from the Bible but from ancient worship of Babylonia Ishtar which corresponds to Astarte, etc  - goddess of fertility - which is why the bunnies and eggs for example.   

Or the trinity which is not only illogical but also not taught in the Bible.

Or the immorality of the human soul (the Bible says the soul dies at the death of the person - Ezekiel 18:4,20 KJV; Ecclesiastes 3:19; 9:5,10).   Why would we need a resurrection if we have immortal souls?   Illogical to say the least!

JW is an interesting variant of the vast diversity of Christian thought and practice.  I wish you happiness and further growth (whatever that may be).  There have been many point-by-point criticisms of the Bible.  Some of which are valid (IMHO).  At best, the Bible is an inspired work of men (and women) that has consistently fascinated people for nearly 2000 years (much to the annoyance of the residuals of atheist writers).  My favorite Biblical criticism is musical ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3x2SvqhfevE

Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Mike Cl on March 16, 2020, 09:12:32 AM
Quote from: Newtonian on March 16, 2020, 05:38:38 AM

Or the immorality of the human soul (the Bible says the soul dies at the death of the person - Ezekiel 18:4,20 KJV; Ecclesiastes 3:19; 9:5,10).   Why would we need a resurrection if we have immortal souls?   Illogical to say the least!
Gotta love your use of the word 'illogical'.  Your religion is just that.  Pure and simple--your beliefs are just that, illogical and what you place your beliefs upon is a fiction.  And of course, your bible (and all others, for there is not just one bible, but a multitude) can be used to prove anything.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Blackleaf on March 16, 2020, 12:33:52 PM
Quote from: Newtonian on March 16, 2020, 05:38:38 AM
Yes, and it is why some hate my religion (Jehovah's Witnesses) because we expose the lies and deceptions taught in Christendom - like observing December 25th as the birth date of Jesus when in actuality this was a pagan observance - the Roman Saturnalia in worship of the Sun (not the Son).

Or Easter which does not come from the Bible but from ancient worship of Babylonia Ishtar which corresponds to Astarte, etc  - goddess of fertility - which is why the bunnies and eggs for example.   

Or the trinity which is not only illogical but also not taught in the Bible.

Or the immorality of the human soul (the Bible says the soul dies at the death of the person - Ezekiel 18:4,20 KJV; Ecclesiastes 3:19; 9:5,10).   Why would we need a resurrection if we have immortal souls?   Illogical to say the least!

I find it interesting how easily theists criticize other religions, and yet are so inept at seeing the problems with their own choice of fiction.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Jagella on March 16, 2020, 01:28:36 PM
Quote from: Newtonian on March 16, 2020, 05:38:38 AMYes, and it is why some hate my religion (Jehovah's Witnesses)...

Don't feel bad. Many groups have their critics and enemies. We atheists, for example, are seen by many Americans as no better than rapists.

Quote...because we expose the lies and deceptions taught in Christendom -

I do that too. One difference between us, however, is that I do not make a special exception for Jehovah's Witnesses. Their lies and deceptions are every bit as bad as any other Christian sect and should be exposed too.

Quote...like observing December 25th as the birth date of Jesus when in actuality this was a pagan observance - the Roman Saturnalia in worship of the Sun (not the Son).

Many Christians nowadays are well aware of the pagan origins of Christmas. I suppose most Christians nevertheless like the idea of celebrating the birth of Christ, and since the date and circumstances of Jesus' birth are unknown, December 25 is as good as any other day of the year.

QuoteOr Easter which does not come from the Bible but from ancient worship of Babylonia Ishtar which corresponds to Astarte, etc  - goddess of fertility - which is why the bunnies and eggs for example.   

While eggs and bunnies in baskets may be the work of the Devil, it doesn't appear to harm anybody's faith in the resurrection of Christ.

QuoteOr the trinity which is not only illogical but also not taught in the Bible.

I understand that some Christians interpret parts of the Bible as laying out the triune God. Based on my own study of the Bible, it posits three gods: Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

QuoteOr the immorality of the human soul (the Bible says the soul dies at the death of the person - Ezekiel 18:4,20 KJV; Ecclesiastes 3:19; 9:5,10).   Why would we need a resurrection if we have immortal souls?   Illogical to say the least!

The Bible doesn't need to be logical; it just needs to convert people.

But as far as life after death is concerned, Jesus seemed to believe in it as we read in Luke 16:23-25.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Jagella on March 16, 2020, 01:34:27 PM
Quote from: Blackleaf on March 16, 2020, 12:33:52 PM
I find it interesting how easily theists criticize other religions, and yet are so inept at seeing the problems with their own choice of fiction.

The Watchtower, the Jehovah's Witnesses Vatican, is notorious for its demanding that its followers forego life-saving blood transfusions. It is also alleged that the Watchtower has systematically covered up child abuse and sexual assault within its ranks.

So just to be fair, I will avow that atheists sometimes lie and are involved in corruption. I do not claim that we are necessarily better than any other group. We just don't believe the lie that gods exist.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Newtonian on March 17, 2020, 09:18:01 PM
Quote from: Blackleaf on March 16, 2020, 12:33:52 PM
I find it interesting how easily theists criticize other religions, and yet are so inept at seeing the problems with their own choice of fiction.

Theists?   Please understand Jehovah's Witnesses are a separate and distinct religion very different from most other religions.   You need be specific for me to respond better.   

Gandhi saw one of the glaring problems with Christendom (he was a Hindu) - their claiming to follow Jesus and their failure to love their enemies as Jesus commanded in Matthew 5:44.

Their are many rationalizations and deceptions offered by Christendom but they simply do not answer why they are willing to slaughter their enemies in war while showing love to their enemies!

Jehovah's Witnesses do not go to war.  We do actually (not just in word) follow what Jesus taught.

And love is more important than doctrine.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Newtonian on March 17, 2020, 09:27:40 PM
Quote from: Jagella on March 16, 2020, 01:34:27 PM
The Watchtower, the Jehovah's Witnesses Vatican, is notorious for its demanding that its followers forego life-saving blood transfusions. It is also alleged that the Watchtower has systematically covered up child abuse and sexual assault within its ranks.

So just to be fair, I will avow that atheists sometimes lie and are involved in corruption. I do not claim that we are necessarily better than any other group. We just don't believe the lie that gods exist.

Blood transfusions - another subject - but who is lying?   Have you researched the relative mortality rate for the same medical proceedures in hospitals using blood transfusions with those who operate without using blood?   Or do you just believe the deceptions of our enemies (not you - I meant Christendom)?

I could post documentation proving bloodless surgery is the "gold standard" for skilled surgeons - I will give only one link on this for now:

https://internationalsurgery.org/doi/full/10.9738/1257.1

Excerpt:

"Bloodless medicine and surgery programs represent the gold standard in blood conservation. Blood conservation is evidence based, and it results in faster recovery, lower morbidity, lower mortality, shorter hospital stay, lower cost, and better patient (and physician) satisfaction while avoiding the hazards of allogeneic blood transfusion."

I have personally had many surgeries without blood transfusions - I could detail this if you would like.   For example: 3 stents in arteries (left anterior descending; right coronary; Carotid) and an artificial aortic valve (TAVR).
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Hydra009 on March 17, 2020, 09:33:35 PM
Quote from: Newtonian on March 17, 2020, 09:18:01 PM
Theists?   Please understand Jehovah's Witnesses are a separate and distinct religion very different from most other religions.   You need be specific for me to respond better.
Theist is a catch-all term for someone who believes in a god or gods.  Jehovah's Witnesses might conceive themselves as vastly different from the pack, but from an outsider perspective, it's just a different coat of paint on the same toilet.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: trdsf on March 17, 2020, 10:04:14 PM
'Lying' is probably not quite the right term.  That implies that one knows one is speaking untruths, and a lot of people legitimately believe their religion -- regardless of whether there's a good reason to.

'Self-delusion' is probably the better phrase.  Religion dies without that.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Gregory on March 18, 2020, 12:24:35 AM
Quote from: trdsf on March 17, 2020, 10:04:14 PM
'Lying' is probably not quite the right term.  That implies that one knows one is speaking untruths, and a lot of people legitimately believe their religion -- regardless of whether there's a good reason to.

'Self-delusion' is probably the better phrase.  Religion dies without that.

Religion dies without the indoctrination of children.  In the Bible, the Hebrews admitted as much.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Baruch on March 18, 2020, 04:49:41 AM
Quote from: Gregory on March 18, 2020, 12:24:35 AM
Religion dies without the indoctrination of children.  In the Bible, the Hebrews admitted as much.

If you don't indoctrinate your children, you get Children of the Corn.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Jagella on March 18, 2020, 11:01:15 PM
Quote from: trdsf on March 17, 2020, 10:04:14 PM
'Lying' is probably not quite the right term.  That implies that one knows one is speaking untruths, and a lot of people legitimately believe their religion -- regardless of whether there's a good reason to.

'Self-delusion' is probably the better phrase.  Religion dies without that.

You are correct. A lie won't work unless somebody is lied to. Many of the clergy lie, and many of the faithful believe those lies hoping those lies are true.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Gregory on March 19, 2020, 03:20:15 AM
Lying is nothing if it does no harm.  Telling someone that they are going to heaven when they are dying does no harm.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Hydra009 on March 19, 2020, 05:48:56 AM
Quote from: Gregory on March 19, 2020, 03:20:15 AM
Lying is nothing if it does no harm.  Telling someone that they are going to heaven when they are dying does no harm.
Ehhh...I don't know about you, but I'd rather not have someone blow smoke up my ass.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on March 19, 2020, 07:48:32 AM
Quote from: Hydra009 on March 17, 2020, 09:33:35 PM
Theist is a catch-all term for someone who believes in a god or gods.  Jehovah's Witnesses might conceive themselves as vastly different from the pack, but from an outsider perspective, it's just a different coat of paint on the same toilet.
Yeah-butting is endemic in religion. "Yeah, but we have the straight skinny."
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on March 19, 2020, 07:49:41 AM
Quote from: Hydra009 on March 19, 2020, 05:48:56 AM
Ehhh...I don't know about you, but I'd rather not have someone blow smoke up my ass.
It might make you more sympathetic toward smoked ham.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Jagella on March 19, 2020, 09:07:34 AM
Quote from: Gregory on March 19, 2020, 03:20:15 AM
Lying is nothing if it does no harm.  Telling someone that they are going to heaven when they are dying does no harm.

Belief in a post-life heaven may lead to complacency in this life. People may be less likely to try to solve problems and exploit resources to maximize well-being. Moreover, preaching a ticket to heaven exclusive to one religion may lead to confusion and division among people of all religions. Even violence may occur if people fear that others may not make it to their heaven.

So belief in heaven can and often has led to hell on earth.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Baruch on March 19, 2020, 10:01:38 AM
Quote from: Hydra009 on March 19, 2020, 05:48:56 AM
Ehhh...I don't know about you, but I'd rather not have someone blow smoke up my ass.

Good plan.  The one time I had sarcasm nearly put me in a hospital (I had offended a co-worker) I had used that meme.  Fortunately I know how to go in reverse.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: trdsf on March 19, 2020, 11:12:13 AM
Quote from: Gregory on March 19, 2020, 03:20:15 AM
Lying is nothing if it does no harm.
Agreed, with caveats.  So-called "little white lies" are still lies.

Quote from: Gregory on March 19, 2020, 03:20:15 AM
Telling someone that they are going to heaven when they are dying does no harm.
I can think of few things more heinous than lying to someone in extremis.  When I'm on my death bed, I will find the energy to rip a new one out of whoever is so damned tactless to say something like that to me.  And if in a position to be asked by a believer, I'll punt with something genuinely innocuous designed to protect their feelings without making a hypocrite of myself.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: LoriPinkAngel on March 19, 2020, 11:52:55 AM
I deal with dying people sometimes in my line of work.  When they speak of going to heaven or meeting their maker I am obviously not going to contradict them at that time.  I usually just evade the subject by saying something like we will be here for you and we will do all we can to manage your pain.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Jagella on March 19, 2020, 02:03:17 PM
Quote from: LoriPinkAngel on March 19, 2020, 11:52:55 AM
I deal with dying people sometimes in my line of work.  When they speak of going to heaven or meeting their maker I am obviously not going to contradict them at that time.  I usually just evade the subject by saying something like we will be here for you and we will do all we can to manage your pain.

I think you're doing the right thing. I generally don't disabuse people of their comforting beliefs unless doing so is in the context of a debate or discussion on that subject. I also may warn people of the potential dangers of those beliefs if necessary. In any case, when you do assure them that medical science is their better bet, I'd recommend that you do so persuasively.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Baruch on March 19, 2020, 03:54:15 PM
Quote from: trdsf on March 19, 2020, 11:12:13 AM
Agreed, with caveats.  So-called "little white lies" are still lies.
I can think of few things more heinous than lying to someone in extremis.  When I'm on my death bed, I will find the energy to rip a new one out of whoever is so damned tactless to say something like that to me.  And if in a position to be asked by a believer, I'll punt with something genuinely innocuous designed to protect their feelings without making a hypocrite of myself.

No worry, when you get the Covid-cremation treatment, still alive or not, you won't have anyone chatting with you about things that annoy you.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on March 19, 2020, 06:18:10 PM
Quote from: Gregory on March 19, 2020, 03:20:15 AM
Lying is nothing if it does no harm.  Telling someone that they are going to heaven when they are dying does no harm.
And thus the slippery slope is born.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Baruch on March 19, 2020, 08:11:01 PM
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on March 19, 2020, 06:18:10 PM
And thus the slippery slope is born.

Ski resorts are very popular.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: SGOS on March 19, 2020, 09:07:19 PM
QuoteTelling someone that they are going to heaven when they are dying does no harm.

Years ago, I had the proverbial rich uncle (he didn't leave me a dime).  My parents thought he was too rough around the edges, and a bad influence, which was probably what I liked about him.  He swore like a sailor and was the first atheist I ever met, but he was always nice to me.  He was dying of cancer, and my aunt invited a minister to visit their lavish home and large country estate.  I guess a dying man needs a priest or a minister to save his soul at the last minute.  Uncle Harry told the minster he didn't believe in God, never needed one before, and sure as Hell, didn't want one now.  Whereupon, he told the minster to get out of his house.

Yep, Uncle Harry; I miss that old son-of-a-bitch.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on March 20, 2020, 05:49:59 AM
Boss Lady knows better than to call some son-a-bitch who's too lazy to work and "found a call to the ministry."
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Newtonian on March 21, 2020, 09:13:38 AM
Quote from: Hydra009 on March 17, 2020, 09:33:35 PM
Theist is a catch-all term for someone who believes in a god or gods.  Jehovah's Witnesses might conceive themselves as vastly different from the pack, but from an outsider perspective, it's just a different coat of paint on the same toilet.

I assume you do not know how different Jehovah's Witnesses are from other religions so I will post a few examples - I could detail the reasons if you all want me to - this is just a brief outline:

1.  We do not go to war.    Very few other religions do not allow their members to go to war.

2.  We do not vote or join any political party.   We all give our allegiance to only one government - with Jesus Christ as anointed king.  For example, under Hitler we did not heil Hitler nor join the Nazi party - many of us died because of our stand on this.   What other religion took this stand?   See the website of the United States Holocaust museum in Washington D.C. for documentation, for example:

https://www.ushmm.org/search/results/?q=Jehovah%27s+Witnesses

3.  We do not salute any flag of any human government.  See the United States Supreme court decisions on this.

4.  We do not believe in the doctrine of the immortality of the human soul.   For example, we believe Jesus actually died, not that only is body died.   The Bible teaches that at death we return to the 'dust' of the ground.   We do believe in resurrection from death.   See Ezekiel 18:4 (KJV - the soul dies); Ecclesiastes 9:5,10 (the dead are conscious of nothing).

5.  We do not believe in the trinity doctrine.

6.  We do not pass a collection plate at our meetings.   Our elders are not paid for our ministry since we follow Jesus Christ who also was not paid for his ministry.

And much more - just a few examples showing we are not the same as most religions.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Newtonian on March 21, 2020, 09:21:59 AM
Quote from: Jagella on March 19, 2020, 09:07:34 AM
Belief in a post-life heaven may lead to complacency in this life. People may be less likely to try to solve problems and exploit resources to maximize well-being. Moreover, preaching a ticket to heaven exclusive to one religion may lead to confusion and division among people of all religions. Even violence may occur if people fear that others may not make it to their heaven.

So belief in heaven can and often has led to hell on earth.

For those of my religion, one definition of heaven is our universe - see Genesis 1:1 which says God created the heavens and earth.   We do not believe humans were created to live in heaven - in fact our form of life would not  survive in heaven.

Most of Jehovah's Witnesses have the hope of living forever on planet earth, as stated in Psalms 37:29 after God does away with death (Revelation 21:4 "death will be no more.").

Btw - it is really the doctrine of Hell Fire which has led to the violence in Christendom.  For example, during the dark ages people were burned at the stake since they believed their victims were going into eternal fire anyway.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on March 21, 2020, 09:31:18 AM
Quote from: Newtonian on March 21, 2020, 09:13:38 AM
I assume you do not know how different Jehovah's Witnesses are from other religions so I will post a few examples - I could detail the reasons if you all want me to - this is just a brief outline:

1.  We do not go to war.    Very few other religions do not allow their members to go to war.

2.  We do not vote or join any political party.   We all give our allegiance to only one government - with Jesus Christ as anointed king.  For example, under Hitler we did not heil Hitler nor join the Nazi party - many of us died because of our stand on this.   What other religion took this stand?   See the website of the United States Holocaust museum in Washington D.C. for documentation, for example:

https://www.ushmm.org/search/results/?q=Jehovah%27s+Witnesses

3.  We do not salute any flag of any human government.  See the United States Supreme court decisions on this.

4.  We do not believe in the doctrine of the immortality of the human soul.   For example, we believe Jesus actually died, not that only is body died.   The Bible teaches that at death we return to the 'dust' of the ground.   We do believe in resurrection from death.   See Ezekiel 18:4 (KJV - the soul dies); Ecclesiastes 9:5,10 (the dead are conscious of nothing).

5.  We do not believe in the trinity doctrine.

6.  We do not pass a collection plate at our meetings.   Our elders are not paid for our ministry since we follow Jesus Christ who also was not paid for his ministry.

And much more - just a few examples showing we are not the same as most religions.
Quibbles. You have an imaginary friend and can't grow up.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Newtonian on March 21, 2020, 10:01:03 AM
Quote from: Jagella on March 16, 2020, 01:28:36 PM
Don't feel bad. Many groups have their critics and enemies. We atheists, for example, are seen by many Americans as no better than rapists.

I do that too. One difference between us, however, is that I do not make a special exception for Jehovah's Witnesses. Their lies and deceptions are every bit as bad as any other Christian sect and should be exposed too.

Many Christians nowadays are well aware of the pagan origins of Christmas. I suppose most Christians nevertheless like the idea of celebrating the birth of Christ, and since the date and circumstances of Jesus' birth are unknown, December 25 is as good as any other day of the year.

While eggs and bunnies in baskets may be the work of the Devil, it doesn't appear to harm anybody's faith in the resurrection of Christ.

I understand that some Christians interpret parts of the Bible as laying out the triune God. Based on my own study of the Bible, it posits three gods: Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

The Bible doesn't need to be logical; it just needs to convert people.

But as far as life after death is concerned, Jesus seemed to believe in it as we read in Luke 16:23-25.

1.  The Bible does say shepherds were outside with their flocks when Jesus was born.  In that climate December 25th would be cold.  Actual Biblical evidence points to Jesus' birth being about October 1st.  In that climate October 1st is cooler, but not cold.

More important, while the Bible does give the day and even the hour of Jesus' death, it does not state the day of Jesus' birth.   If Jesus wanted us to observe his birthday he would have given us the date of his birth.

2.  My religion does not have any lies or deceptions - but feel free to post what specifically you are referring to.

3.  The Bible does not teach us to observe the day of Jesus' resurrection.   And the Bible (Passover does not = Easter) has nothing to do with worship of the goddess of fertility (Eostre in ancient England)

4.  Jesus stated his Father was greater than (not equal to) him(John 14:28).   Also the Bible teaches that Jesus died (as foretold in Isaiah 53:10,12) whereas God cannot die.

5.  Faith as taught in the Bible requires proof.   The original Greek for Hebrews 11:1 shows that convincing evidence is required.  KJV - 1 Thessalonians 5:21 "prove all things."

6. Luke 16:23-25 is a parable, which I could prove if you would like me too.  If interpreted literally it would contradict Scripture:

Ecclesiastes 9:5
(KJV)  For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing,

If literal, what good would a drop of water do?   The parable was condemning the religious leaders of that time who were "money lovers" (Luke 16:14) who were tormented by Jesus' teachings as he exposed their hypocrisy.   Watering down the truth even by one drop would have stopped this torment - for then Jesus would also have taught a  lie.

I can detail what this parable means if you would like me to.  In short, the religious leaders only gave crumb of truths (considering them like dogs) to the humble Jews of that time - Jesus changed that - tormenting the religious leaders by exposing them while he gave the lowly Jews a spiritual feast!
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on March 21, 2020, 10:35:33 AM
If you don't believe people lie about being Christian just observe how many of them act in the manner Christians are supposed to act. EOF
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Newtonian on March 21, 2020, 11:38:46 AM
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on March 21, 2020, 10:35:33 AM
If you don't believe people lie about being Christian just observe how many of them act in the manner Christians are supposed to act. EOF

Gandhi observed the same thing about so-called Christians - not following what Jesus actually taught - e.g. for us to love our enemies (Matthew 5:44).
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on March 21, 2020, 12:14:57 PM
Quote from: Newtonian on March 21, 2020, 11:38:46 AM
Gandhi observed the same thing about so-called Christians - not following what Jesus actually taught - e.g. for us to love our enemies (Matthew 5:44).
And to not act like utter assholes. Pity the base material is humans.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Newtonian on March 21, 2020, 03:23:28 PM
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on March 21, 2020, 12:14:57 PM
And to not act like utter assholes. Pity the base material is humans.

Does your comment indicate you do not believe in extraterrestrial life forms of superior intelligence to humans?
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: aitm on March 21, 2020, 09:02:08 PM
Come on Zilla, surely if you can imagine shit it must be true....
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Jagella on March 21, 2020, 09:05:25 PM
Quote from: Newtonian on March 21, 2020, 10:01:03 AMThe Bible does say shepherds were outside with their flocks when Jesus was born.  In that climate December 25th would be cold.  Actual Biblical evidence points to Jesus' birth being about October 1st.  In that climate October 1st is cooler, but not cold.

I just did some fact checking, and according to that source (https://www.climatestotravel.com/climate/israel) temperatures in Israel are mild in December the average lows a balmy 54 degrees Fahrenheit. So shepherds might very well be tending their flocks at night in December, and therefore Jesus could have been born on December 25.

Always check your facts!

QuoteMore important, while the Bible does give the day and even the hour of Jesus' death, it does not state the day of Jesus' birth.

Yes. The Bible omits a lot of important details. It's a very confusing book.

So what was the date of Jesus' death?

QuoteIf Jesus wanted us to observe his birthday he would have given us the date of his birth.

I suppose, but nowhere does the Bible forbid celebrating birthdays or Christmas for that matter.

QuoteMy religion does not have any lies or deceptions...

Have you ever really checked to see? Religious people are not known for critical thinking.

Quote...but feel free to post what specifically you are referring to.

You can find tons of revealing evidence detailing the Watchtower's many deceptions on any search engine or on YouTube. Have you tried these resources?

But years before I had internet access at home, I made a trip to my local public library to investigate the Watchtower book, Life: How did it get here? Using the sources cited in that book I discovered that the writer(s) do indeed deliberately misquote scientists to make it appear that they have doubts about evolution!

This deception is no mere little white lie on the part of the Watchtower; it can do a tremendous amount of harm to attack science that way. The Theory of Evolution is a very important theory needed to safeguard human well-being. We need Darwin's theory to understand how disease spreads, and that includes the current corona virus pandemic.

I have pointed out this deception to two Jehovah's Witnesses I know personally, and it made no difference to them. Apparently truth cannot overcome blind faith.

QuoteThe Bible does not teach us to observe the day of Jesus' resurrection.

It doesn't tell anybody to build kingdom halls either, but that doesn't stop the Watchtower! Your mistake in logic is to conclude that if an action is not mandated, then it is forbidden. The Bible failing to command that Easter be celebrated is no injunction against Easter.

QuoteJesus stated his Father was greater than (not equal to) him(John 14:28).   Also the Bible teaches that Jesus died (as foretold in Isaiah 53:10,12) whereas God cannot die.

The New Testament is confused over the deity of Christ. In some places it appears that Jesus was not God, and in other passages he is presented as God. The answer to this paradox is that the dogma of Jesus being God evolved. In the earliest stages of Christianity, Jesus was not believed to be God. Later Christians remodeled him as the all-mighty.

QuoteFaith as taught in the Bible requires proof.

What proof do you have for the virgin birth?

QuoteLuke 16:23-25 is a parable...

Parables normally contain real-world elements. Do you think that nobody sows seeds because Jesus taught a parable about it? Obviously not, and of course the parable of the rich man being tortured in fire was meant to indoctrinate people into believing that torture by fire awaits anybody who displeases Jehovah. Yes, hell and the afterlife are fictional, but this parable is meant as a real warning to scare people into belief.

QuoteIf interpreted literally it would contradict Scripture:

Ecclesiastes 9:5
(KJV)  For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing,

Hold on there--you're saying that you interpret the Bible to avoid recognizing contradictions in it! Is that an example of the honesty of Jehovah's Witnesses? Twist the Bible to make it appear consistent?

QuoteThe parable was condemning the religious leaders of that time who were "money lovers" (Luke 16:14) who were tormented by Jesus' teachings as he exposed their hypocrisy.

By all means beware money-loving religious leaders. A really good example of their hypocrisy is to claim that they speak for all-mighty Jehovah, and then they pitch for funds! If they really represented Jehovah, then they wouldn't need to beg for money.

Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: aitm on March 21, 2020, 09:14:08 PM
The babble is full of “parables” when it contradicts truths. But never a parable when it I is mere conjecture and unprovable...ala Samson...et al.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Jagella on March 21, 2020, 10:49:38 PM
Quote from: Newtonian on March 21, 2020, 10:01:03 AMMy religion does not have any lies or deceptions - but feel free to post what specifically you are referring to.

As I said, there's tons of online material exposing the dishonesty of the Watchtower. It took me a minute or less to find the article, Watchtower AGAIN misquotes scientist to argue against evolution â€" and this time, it’s personal! (https://jwsurvey.org/cedars-blog/watchtower-again-misquotes-scientist-to-argue-against-evolution-and-this-time-its-personal)

So all religion, including that of the Jehovah's Witnesses, is built on a foundation of lies. There are no gods except in the imaginations of those who wish to believe in them. That's why religions need to lie so much--they try to make those imaginary gods out to be real.

(https://i0.wp.com/jwsurvey.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/hawaii.jpg)
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Hydra009 on March 21, 2020, 11:06:05 PM
Quote from: Newtonian on March 21, 2020, 09:13:38 AM
I assume you do not know how different Jehovah's Witnesses are from other religions so I will post a few examples - I could detail the reasons if you all want me to - this is just a brief outline
Do you respect the privacy of people who are sitting down for dinner?  Cause that's the bullet point I care about.  I couldn't care less about whether you worship a triune god or not.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Newtonian on March 22, 2020, 09:02:35 AM
Quote from: Jagella on March 21, 2020, 10:49:38 PM
As I said, there's tons of online material exposing the dishonesty of the Watchtower. It took me a minute or less to find the article, Watchtower AGAIN misquotes scientist to argue against evolution â€" and this time, it’s personal! (https://jwsurvey.org/cedars-blog/watchtower-again-misquotes-scientist-to-argue-against-evolution-and-this-time-its-personal)

So all religion, including that of the Jehovah's Witnesses, is built on a foundation of lies. There are no gods except in the imaginations of those who wish to believe in them. That's why religions need to lie so much--they try to make those imaginary gods out to be real.

(https://i0.wp.com/jwsurvey.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/hawaii.jpg)

True - our enemies predominate the internet and do spread lies and deceptions about us.  I cannot respond to the accusation unless you give a link to the source of the quote, the specific scientist quoted and the actual quote contained in our literature.  The subject is also relevant, and also where in our literature the quote can be found.

Belief in God or not is a personal decision - we have free will.   I hope you realize that a person spreading inaccurate information is not necessarily lying - they may be deceived or simply making a mistake.

An example is some information on the media about Corona/Covid 19 virus - like saying young people do not have serious symptoms.   
 
For those of my religion, we do not believe our literature is infallible so a faultfinder will be able to find fault.   But that is true of all literature with human authors.  The Bible, on the other hand, only has human errors in translation, not the actual statements in the original Hebrew and Greek.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: aitm on March 22, 2020, 09:27:55 AM
Quote from: Newtonian/The Bible, on the other hand, only has human errors in translation, not the actual statements in the original Hebrew and Greek.

Because even though god “new you in the womb” was too stupid to know what language was next. Mighty impressive god. LOL.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Newtonian on March 22, 2020, 09:53:20 AM
Quote from: aitm on March 21, 2020, 09:14:08 PM
The babble is full of “parables” when it contradicts truths. But never a parable when it I is mere conjecture and unprovable...ala Samson...et al.

I am not familiar with any parable/illustration about Samson - perhaps you could cite what you are referring to.

The Rich Man and Lazarus parable in Luke 16 is one of a number of parables in the context of Luke 16 - the other parable in Luke 16 also starts with the phrase "a rich man." (Luke 16:1)  Jesus often spoke in illustrations/parables (Matthew 13:34-36ff).  Some illustrations in the Bible are also true literally - like a flock of sheep knowing the voice of their master.   Other illustrations are not true literally - like the dragon in Revelation.  As I am into science (note my user name) this account especially interests me:

Jude 11-13
New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures (Study Edition)

11 Too bad for them, for they have followed the path of Cain+ and have rushed into the erroneous course of Baʹlaam+ for reward, and they have perished in the rebellious talk+ of Korʹah!+ 12 These are the rocks hidden below water at your love feasts+ while they feast with you, shepherds who feed themselves without fear;+ waterless clouds carried here and there by the wind;+ fruitless trees in late autumn, having died twice* and having been uprooted; 13 wild waves of the sea that cast up the foam of their own shame;+ stars with no set course, for which the blackest darkness stands reserved forever.

Rocks hidden below water is also true literally; waterless clouds carried by winds is literal depending on interpretation of "waterless" (simply, it is not referring to rain clouds - e.g. cumulus vs. cumulonimbus), fruitless trees is literal also but dying twice is not totally literal; waves casting up causes for shame is literal (e.g. plastics and oil from current human pollution) - but what about the last case - stars with no set course in total darkness forever?

Some dismiss this as just an illustration - but in view of the other illustrations in Jude 12,13 the possibility of it being literal should be considered scientifically.   Also, another illustration of apostates about darkness could also have the same literal application:

Matthew 6:23 (NW ref)
If in reality the light that is in you is darkness, how great that darkness is!+

So, can there be stars with no set course whose light is darkness and who will be in darkness forever?   The question is a valid subject for scientific research.   For example:

Black holes are stars whose light has become darkness.   But are there black holes with no set course that will be in darkness forever?   If so, they would have to have escaped both the light of our universe and the gravity of our universe - perhaps during the FTL (=faster than light) 'inflation' after the big bang - modifying the inflation model many scientists accept.

Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on March 22, 2020, 09:58:29 AM
There was no faster than light expansion after the Big Bang. Space itself was expanding at near light speed. But that's math. 
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Baruch on March 22, 2020, 10:23:56 AM
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on March 22, 2020, 09:58:29 AM
There was no faster than light expansion after the Big Bang. Space itself was expanding at near light speed. But that's math.

Allowed by Special Relativity.  And maybe happened (but please reproduce in laboratory .. in another galaxy).
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: aitm on March 22, 2020, 03:53:32 PM
Quote from: Newtonian on March 22, 2020, 09:53:20 AM

New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures
LOL......translation....if you don’t like what the OLD book says....make up a new one. LOL.
And you wonder why nobody takes you seriously
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Hydra009 on March 22, 2020, 05:46:58 PM
Quote from: Newtonian on March 22, 2020, 09:53:20 AMOther illustrations are not true literally - like the dragon in Revelation.
The movie is never quite as good as the book.

QuoteBlack holes are stars whose light has become darkness.
They don't actually emit darkness.  Whatever's going on in there is so warped by gravity that any visible light it emits curves back into itself, hence the black appearance.

QuoteBut are there black holes with no set course that will be in darkness forever?
I've tried to parse that into something logically and scientific sensible several times to no avail.  You do realize that nothing (unless it's man-made) has a set course?  Orbits are predictable to a certain degree, but that phrase assumes intent and purpose that frankly doesn't exist.  And the rest of it is similarly insensible.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Newtonian on March 23, 2020, 08:58:21 AM
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on March 22, 2020, 09:58:29 AM
There was no faster than light expansion after the Big Bang. Space itself was expanding at near light speed. But that's math.

Do you accept one of the popular inflation theory models?   Here is a link to one popular model, which also goes into problems in the Big Bang theory which led to this theory:

https://www.physicsoftheuniverse.com/topics_bigbang_inflation.html

Excerpt:

"By some calculations, inflation increased the size of the universe by a factor of around 10^26 during that tiny fraction (far less than a trillionth) of a second,"

This is much faster than the speed of light.   However, this source has errors - here is one of the more obvious errors:

"Although the universe has been expanding since the initial Big Bang, inflation refers to the hypothesis that, for a very short time, the universe expanded at a sharply INCREASING rate, rather than at the decreasing rate it followed before inflation and has followed since."

The truth is that the universe is currently increasing in rate; i.e. Dark Energy is accelerating the expansion rate.

Jude 13 hints at a somewhat different model which posits that some black holes expanded from the singularity at FTL speed and continues at that speed so that the light of our universe will never catch up.   Likewise, these black holes would have to have escaped the gravity of the universe since they "have no set course."

But, what is the speed of gravity?   I.e. what is the speed of gravitons?   Or gravitational waves?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_of_gravity

"In classical theories of gravitation, the changes in a gravitational field propagate. A change in the distribution of energy and momentum of matter results in subsequent alteration, at a distance, of the gravitational field which it produces. In the relativistic sense, the "speed of gravity" refers to the speed of a gravitational wave, which, as predicted by general relativity and confirmed by observation of the GW170817 neutron star merger, is the same speed[1] as the speed of light (c)."
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Blackleaf on March 23, 2020, 11:32:44 AM
Quote from: Newtonian on March 17, 2020, 09:18:01 PM
Theists?   Please understand Jehovah's Witnesses are a separate and distinct religion very different from most other religions.   You need be specific for me to respond better.

You're not special in thinking that. Everyone thinks their religion is special. Christians think they're special. Muslims think they're special. You're just offering hallow words. All you've shown was how lacking in self-awareness you are.

Quote from: Newtonian on March 17, 2020, 09:18:01 PMGandhi saw one of the glaring problems with Christendom (he was a Hindu) - their claiming to follow Jesus and their failure to love their enemies as Jesus commanded in Matthew 5:44.

That quote is often shared around, but is likely fake. Regardless, why aren't you a Hindu if you recognize that Hindus are more loving than other religious groups? It's funny how people are willing to quote Gandhi like they respect his opinions, when they don't listen to anything else he says.

Quote from: Newtonian on March 17, 2020, 09:18:01 PMTheir are many rationalizations and deceptions offered by Christendom but they simply do not answer why they are willing to slaughter their enemies in war while showing love to their enemies!

Jehovah's Witnesses do not go to war.  We do actually (not just in word) follow what Jesus taught.

Religions often go violent when they achieve political power. It was easy for Christians to be the martyrs when they had no power. But once they had Rome, once they had Europe, once they had America, they used their power to bully and subjugate others. That's how it always goes. Remind me, how many countries are JW majority...? Zero? Huh. What a funny coincidence.

Quote from: Newtonian on March 17, 2020, 09:18:01 PMAnd love is more important than doctrine.

"It's not a religion! It's a relationship!"
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Blackleaf on March 23, 2020, 11:50:20 AM
Quote from: Newtonian on March 22, 2020, 09:02:35 AMBelief in God or not is a personal decision - we have free will.   I hope you realize that a person spreading inaccurate information is not necessarily lying - they may be deceived or simply making a mistake.

No. This is one of the many problems I have with theists. They act like atheists chose to not believe, usually because we "love to sin." Which is stupid, because if I wanted to sin without consequences, I'd be a Christian and pray for forgiveness.

Belief is not voluntary. You can go through the motions, pretending to believe, but you cannot choose to believe whatever you want. Here, I'll prove it. Make yourself believe that Billie Eilish makes good music. Can't do it, can you?
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: SGOS on March 23, 2020, 12:10:37 PM
"It's not a lie, because I believe it," is a pretty shoddy excuse for an untruth.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Jagella on March 23, 2020, 12:20:27 PM
Quote from: Newtonian on March 22, 2020, 09:02:35 AM
True - our enemies predominate the internet...

How do you explain your enemies being so numerous? As far as I can tell, few people dislike Jehovah's Witnesses--they just hate the abuses occurring in the ranks of the people controlled by the Watchtower.

Quote...and do spread lies and deceptions about us.

Can you post an example, or are you just going by what the Watchtower has told you?

QuoteI cannot respond to the accusation unless you give a link to the source of the quote, the specific scientist quoted and the actual quote contained in our literature.  The subject is also relevant, and also where in our literature the quote can be found.

I already posted a link to all that information.

QuoteBelief in God or not is a personal decision - we have free will.

I cannot choose to believe in a god or anything else. Belief comes naturally for me. I have no "free will" to choose what I am convinced of.

QuoteI hope you realize that a person spreading inaccurate information is not necessarily lying - they may be deceived or simply making a mistake.

Yes. I think that the bulk of Jehovah's Witnesses are deceived by the Watchtower or are mistaken regarding their religious beliefs. You cannot have a lie unless people are lied to.

QuoteAn example is some information on the media about Corona/Covid 19 virus - like saying young people do not have serious symptoms.   

By the way, you ignored my comments about the vital role the Theory of Evolution plays in the study of how disease spreads. To attack Darwin's theory is to attack the effort of scientists to bring deadly viruses like Covid 19 under control.

QuoteFor those of my religion, we do not believe our literature is infallible so a faultfinder will be able to find fault.   But that is true of all literature with human authors.

Well, all "human authors" should be responsible for what they write. The Watchtower should retract all its "mistakes" about the scientists they misquote.

QuoteThe Bible, on the other hand, only has human errors in translation, not the actual statements in the original Hebrew and Greek.

That's strange--why would Jehovah go to all the trouble of writing a perfect book in dying languages only to have people mess it all up when they translate it? Evidently Jehovah cannot author a book in languages people actually speak.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Hydra009 on March 23, 2020, 12:58:38 PM
Quote from: Blackleaf on March 23, 2020, 11:50:20 AMMake yourself believe that Billie Eilish makes good music.
*clenches every muscle in his body for 5 solid minutes*

...no, I guess not.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on March 23, 2020, 06:15:53 PM
The early expansion of the Universe was so fast it requires a vastly smaller time unit, the Planck time, to break it down.

Don't worry if you don't "get this", you're just human.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Newtonian on March 25, 2020, 02:00:41 AM
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on March 23, 2020, 06:15:53 PM
The early expansion of the Universe was so fast it requires a vastly smaller time unit, the Planck time, to break it down.

Don't worry if you don't "get this", you're just human.

Indeed, this begs the question as to whether the universe started as a true singularity with no dimensions at all, or whether it started with an actual diameter smaller than planck length!
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Newtonian on March 25, 2020, 02:25:32 AM
Hi Blackleaf!  How are you?

Sorry I lack time at the moment to respond to all your points - but you posted in reply 115:

"That quote is often shared around, but is likely fake. Regardless, why aren't you a Hindu if you recognize that Hindus are more loving than other religious groups? It's funny how people are willing to quote Gandhi like they respect his opinions, when they don't listen to anything else he says."

You were referring to where Jesus taught us to love our enemies - in his sermon on the mount at Matthew 5:44.   Gandhi did not think this was fake - in fact he did better at following what Jesus taught than most of violent Christendom.   Christendom gives Jesus lip-service, but when it comes to actual actions (which speak louder than words) their conduct in World War II (e.g. so-called 'Christians' under Hitler) they do not love their enemies.

When I lived on Long Island, N.Y. I studied the Bible with my cardiologist (we offer all people free home Bible studies) who was Hindu - he appreciated what Jesus taught and how Gandhi taught the same thing as to loving our enemies.   Btw - this is in harmony with the Hindu teaching of non-violence known as Ahimsa.   In fact, the division of Hinduism known as the Jains are one of the very few religions that do not go to war (out of respect for the sanctity of life- though they believe in reincarnation).

We do quote Gandhi in our literature btw - feel free to check out these links to articles in our literature concerning the life of Gandhi:

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/101984242?q=Gandhi&p=par

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/101984241?q=Gandhi&p=par

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101990037?q=Gandhi&p=par

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/101984243?q=Gandhi&p=par

Brief excerpt from the latter link:

"Yet the rest of the world is also guilty of committing Gandhi’s seven social sins​â€"‘politics without principles, wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, education without character, commerce without morality, worship without sacrifice and science without humanity.’"

Thank you for inciting me to re-read the above myself, btw!   Some before I go back to sleep - more later!

Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Baruch on March 25, 2020, 07:10:52 AM
Quote from: Newtonian on March 25, 2020, 02:00:41 AM
Indeed, this begs the question as to whether the universe started as a true singularity with no dimensions at all, or whether it started with an actual diameter smaller than planck length!

Physics and astronomy are irrelevant.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: aitm on March 25, 2020, 08:28:35 AM
Quote from: Newtonian on March 25, 2020, 02:00:41 AM
Indeed, this begs the question as to whether the universe started as a true singularity with no dimensions at all, or whether it started with an actual diameter smaller than planck length!

I am always embarrassed by the depths many will go to in order to mate science with religion. Here we have Newt, obviously a bright, intelligent person who takes serious interest in science..but only how it can used to help him maintain his faith.

And in the same breath admits god couldn't beat one army because they had chariots with iron wheels.....lol...man the pretzelizing of oneself of logic and reason to maintain that so much needed mattress to comfort the insecurities and fear of death. Must be terrible in that head...bouncing around looking for any and every scrap of information that somehow can justify the lunacy that even he knows throttles logic.

Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on March 26, 2020, 05:09:30 PM
Quote from: Newtonian on March 25, 2020, 02:00:41 AM
Indeed, this begs the question as to whether the universe started as a true singularity with no dimensions at all, or whether it started with an actual diameter smaller than planck length!
I believe it started as a white hole, the "other end" of some supermassive black hole in another universe. It could be that this has happened endless numbers of times, each SMBH creating a new universe where it happens many times. The great overarching structure is very wild to consider.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Blackleaf on March 27, 2020, 01:31:12 AM
Quote from: Newtonian on March 25, 2020, 02:25:32 AM
Hi Blackleaf!  How are you?

Sorry I lack time at the moment to respond to all your points - but you posted in reply 115:

"That quote is often shared around, but is likely fake. Regardless, why aren't you a Hindu if you recognize that Hindus are more loving than other religious groups? It's funny how people are willing to quote Gandhi like they respect his opinions, when they don't listen to anything else he says."

You were referring to where Jesus taught us to love our enemies - in his sermon on the mount at Matthew 5:44.   Gandhi did not think this was fake - in fact he did better at following what Jesus taught than most of violent Christendom.   Christendom gives Jesus lip-service, but when it comes to actual actions (which speak louder than words) their conduct in World War II (e.g. so-called 'Christians' under Hitler) they do not love their enemies.

When I lived on Long Island, N.Y. I studied the Bible with my cardiologist (we offer all people free home Bible studies) who was Hindu - he appreciated what Jesus taught and how Gandhi taught the same thing as to loving our enemies.   Btw - this is in harmony with the Hindu teaching of non-violence known as Ahimsa.   In fact, the division of Hinduism known as the Jains are one of the very few religions that do not go to war (out of respect for the sanctity of life- though they believe in reincarnation).

We do quote Gandhi in our literature btw - feel free to check out these links to articles in our literature concerning the life of Gandhi:

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/101984242?q=Gandhi&p=par

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/101984241?q=Gandhi&p=par

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101990037?q=Gandhi&p=par

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/101984243?q=Gandhi&p=par

Brief excerpt from the latter link:

"Yet the rest of the world is also guilty of committing Gandhi’s seven social sins​â€"‘politics without principles, wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, education without character, commerce without morality, worship without sacrifice and science without humanity.’"

Thank you for inciting me to re-read the above myself, btw!   Some before I go back to sleep - more later!

The quote I was referring to as likely fake was Gandhi's, not Jesus' Sermon on the Mount. Although, I have serious doubts anything written about Jesus was true.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Baruch on March 27, 2020, 08:10:57 AM
Like that Gandhi quote!  Atheists won't like him or MLK because both ARE religious men.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Sal1981 on March 27, 2020, 11:38:36 PM
Quote from: Baruch on March 27, 2020, 08:10:57 AM
Like that Gandhi quote!  Atheists won't like him or MLK because both ARE religious men.
I don't need to be a believer to appreciate art made by believers.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Mike Cl on March 27, 2020, 11:49:03 PM
Quote from: Sal1981 on March 27, 2020, 11:38:36 PM
I don't need to be a believer to appreciate art made by believers.
Just as I don't need to be a chef to appreciate good food.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Baruch on March 28, 2020, 10:27:56 AM
Quote from: Sal1981 on March 27, 2020, 11:38:36 PM
I don't need to be a believer to appreciate art made by believers.

A blind person can appreciate pictures.  If they are "thick" aka can be productively felt over by braille-trained blind people.  Can't do this with photographs.

Are you claiming "cultural appropriation"?  Atheists with Christian art ... are like British Imperialists with Indian art.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Baruch on March 28, 2020, 10:28:42 AM
Quote from: Mike Cl on March 27, 2020, 11:49:03 PM
Just as I don't need to be a chef to appreciate good food.

You need to be a good chef to cook good food.  And a chef will appreciate food more than you do.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Jagella on March 29, 2020, 10:59:11 PM
Quote from: Newtonian on March 25, 2020, 02:25:32 AMWhen I lived on Long Island, N.Y. I studied the Bible with my cardiologist (we offer all people free home Bible studies) who was Hindu - he appreciated what Jesus taught and how Gandhi taught the same thing as to loving our enemies.

I hope your Hindu cardiologist learns that the dogmas attributed to Jesus, in particular the dogmas of his bringing a "sword" and division to people and their families, have led to untold suffering. The inquisition was inspired by the belief in a wrathful god who casts those who displease him into hell. They also believed in demons and Satan, yet more pernicious superstitions attributed to Jesus. When they burned a person at the stake, they called this fiendish act an "auto-da-fé" which means "act of faith (in Christ)."

If you did not tell your Hindu friend these facts, then you told him a lie of omission.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Gregory on April 06, 2020, 02:13:30 PM
What is in a lie? Mary Magdalene was not a whore. Some twit misinterpreted the Bible, and it was propagated because it was a better story.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Baruch on April 06, 2020, 10:23:51 PM
Quote from: Gregory on April 06, 2020, 02:13:30 PM
What is in a lie? Mary Magdalene was not a whore. Some twit misinterpreted the Bible, and it was propagated because it was a better story.

All scripture is about "a better story".  The Bible was informally amended after the canon was closed.  And Churches reinterpret the Bible as they will.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Cassia on April 30, 2020, 12:14:42 PM
Quote from: Baruch on April 06, 2020, 10:23:51 PM
All scripture is about "a better story".  The Bible was informally amended after the canon was closed.  And Churches reinterpret the Bible as they will.

Since Jesus supposedly led a completely unrealistic and totally symbolic life and has so many attributes of many supernatural characters that came before him, I doubt much of anything written about him is true. The earliest writings are simply “revelations” that came to Paul; there is little about a worldly man, his family or his humanity. Oddly enough as the decades pass early Christians (who were not witnesses to any of it) wrote allegorical details in the gospels as they incorporated concepts from their conqueror’s religion of Zoroastrianism and the several prevalent Mystery cults into their baseline Judaism.  Jesus’s life mirrors Moses (another fictional character). Many times early on they wrote about how the world would end and Jesus would return during their lifetime. Of course, that failed and then the early church starts assembling a longer term story. The authors of the gospels were skilled writers, no doubt.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Baruch on April 30, 2020, 12:28:12 PM
Quote from: Cassia on April 30, 2020, 12:14:42 PM
Since Jesus supposedly led a completely unrealistic and totally symbolic life and has so many attributes of many supernatural characters that came before him, I doubt much of anything written about him is true. The earliest writings are simply “revelations” that came to Paul; there is little about a worldly man, his family or his humanity. Oddly enough as the decades pass early Christians (who were not witnesses to any of it) wrote allegorical details in the gospels as they incorporated concepts from their conqueror’s religion of Zoroastrianism and the several prevalent Mystery cults into their baseline Judaism.  Jesus’s life mirrors Moses (another fictional character). Many times early on they wrote about how the world would end and Jesus would return during their lifetime. Of course, that failed and then the early church starts assembling a longer term story. The authors of the gospels were skilled writers, no doubt.

"Danger, Will Robinson!" - robot from original Lost In Space TV show ... you know more than most clergy!!

Correct, the gospel writers were "anonymous" with names attached many decades later by the Church.  Most show show signs of careful composition by people much more educated than Galilean fishermen.  Paul was quite educated himself.  The Last Temptation of Christ has Paul meet a very living Jesus (living with Mary Magdalene), with Paul clearly shown as a snake-oil salesman.  The fictional Jesus is a far better sales pitch.  That meme is one of the most successful in history (along with "New & Improved" aka Protestantism).
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Unbeliever on April 30, 2020, 12:37:54 PM
Quote from: Baruch on March 16, 2020, 06:43:52 AM
JW is an interesting variant of the vast diversity of Christian thought and practice.  I wish you happiness and further growth (whatever that may be).  There have been many point-by-point criticisms of the Bible.  Some of which are valid (IMHO).  At
Quote from: Baruch on March 16, 2020, 06:39:21 AM
Atheists don't believe in damnation, so damn lies are oxymorons for them ;-)
best, the Bibl
Quote from: Baruch on March 16, 2020, 06:39:21 AM
Atheists don't believe in damnation, so damn lies are oxymorons for them ;-)
e is an inspired work of men (and women) that has consistently fascinated people for nearly 2000 years (much to the annoyance of the residuals of atheist writers).  My favorite Biblical criticism is musical ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3x2SvqhfevE


That's why we like statistics, because 'damned lies' is an oxymoron.  LOL
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: Baruch on June 24, 2020, 05:31:11 PM
Sept 2018 the Vatican made a secret agreement with CCP ... because Pope Francis is an Argentine Marxist plant.  CCP and Vatican get closer and closer since then.  A few bishops are fighting back.  China is literally bribing the Vatican, same as Saudi Arabia was during the BCCI scandal 40 years ago.  This Pope is what you guys love, because he is joined at the hip with Euro-Communism, Italy is the far end of the Belt & Road Chinese plan.

Not the first time.  Vatican sold its soul to Mussolini and Hitler back in the 20s and 30s, over Italy paying gold in compensation to the Vatican for the Papal States then in 1870.  As a result, Hitler's Pope sold out the Roman Ghetto that the Vatican had protected for 1600 years.
Title: Re: How much is lying a part of Christianity?
Post by: SGOS on June 27, 2020, 08:58:32 AM
Quote from: aitm on March 25, 2020, 08:28:35 AM
I am always embarrassed by the depths many will go to in order to mate science with religion. Here we have Newt, obviously a bright, intelligent person who takes serious interest in science..but only how it can used to help him maintain his faith.

And in the same breath admits god couldn't beat one army because they had chariots with iron wheels.....lol...man the pretzelizing of oneself of logic and reason to maintain that so much needed mattress to comfort the insecurities and fear of death. Must be terrible in that head...bouncing around looking for any and every scrap of information that somehow can justify the lunacy that even he knows throttles logic.
Speaking from my own experience, it was "terrible in my head."  I remember the struggle trying to make things fit that didn't fit.  At a young age, I was creating my own system of apologetics as an attempt to make things that didn't fit seem like they fit.  Years and years later I came to find out that Biblical scholars have already done the work for me and Bible schools were teaching an actual ideology called "apologetics", which continues to grow.  I can't imagine why they call it apologetics.  What a name for something that is flimsy as an apology.  And the sick part is that the new scholarly apologetics is every bit as rationally flimsy as mine was as a teenager.

Most Christians don't outwardly seem like they are troubled by the conflicts between reason and fantasy.  Maybe some are at a deeper level, but most don't question the irrationality of the Bible.  I don't know how they don't because starting at an early age, I could not help being haunted by Biblical irrationality, the biggest problem being the irrationality of the god concept itself.  To me the problem starts right there with the presentation of a concept which cannot be proven.

OK, some things cannot be proven and it isn't so bothersome.  Prove the universe started with a singularity.  You can explain it through theory, but you cannot really know this as absolute truth.  But then no scientist that I've ever heard of is telling people they have to believe in the singularity or they will burn in Hell for eternity.  In fact, we can't even know if eternity actually exists.

Why would religion muck with reason by adding an absurd caveat that if you do not believe the fantasy you will receive a fate more horrible than you can imagine.  It does so because it works for the sheep.  Reason be damned.  You are taught not to reason, even though the consequences of reason itself demands reason, for which there is none.

Yeah, I remember it as "terrible in the head," although at the time, I had nothing else to compare it too.  I was not ready to just up and quit believing in obvious bullshit.  That turned out to be a big step for me.  Life long atheists may wonder how that can be.  Indoctrination is why.