Hi everyone,
I am a lifelong Catholic. But on a recent work trip, I decided to put on a documentary about Greek gods. It was during this documentary that I had a thought that turned into more of a revelation.
Though I've heard the question asked by non-theists before, for some reason this time it hit me right in the jellies. How was the Old Testament God any different than the Greek gods? How is the Genesis creation story(ies) any different than the Greek creation stories? If I was born in Saudi Arabia or India or China, would I be Christian? I think the obvious answer is no. I’d be Muslim, Hindu, or Buddhist respectively. So how do I support my beliefs in Christianity? Does it have a case (objectively) to be any more true than any other religion (e.g. Hinduism or Pantheism)? I no longer think so.
Rick Gervais' quote (which I found tonight), sums up my current thinking.
Quote"There have been nearly 3000 gods so far but only yours exists. The others are silly made up nonsense. But not yours. Yours is real."
I love Ricky Gervais' new Netflix show After Life.
Welcome to AF.
I haven't seen it yet, but I am looking forward to watching it.
Welcome, Acrob (too lazy to type the whole name). And I agree with your suspicions. And I entirely agree with you in that religious beliefs is a function of geography and not facts or the teachings of real people.
Quote from: AcrobaticDetective on February 02, 2020, 10:41:56 PM
How was the Old Testament God any different than the Greek gods?
How is the new Testament God any different than the Greek gods? I think the real question is why are the two the same?
Quote from: AcrobaticDetective on February 02, 2020, 10:41:56 PM
How is the Genesis creation story(ies) any different than the Greek creation stories?
How is the Bible any different than the Iliad? I had to read the Iliad in high school. It reminded me of the Bible. Homer may have written the Bible from all I could tell.
I'm a former Lutheran. I tried to hang onto my belief, but I was more preoccupied with the unexplained contradictions in religious thought. I was brainwashed as a child, and it took me over 50 years to realize I was an atheist. I called myself a Christian, but I never found God. "You didn't try hard enough," is the old saw that theists like to fling at the agnostic. I tried to find a way to believe harder than my Christian friends. I could imagine a God well enough, but when I got off my ass long enough to think, rather than imagine, no God was there.
Quote from: AcrobaticDetective on February 02, 2020, 10:41:56 PM
If I was born in Saudi Arabia or India or China, would I be Christian? I think the obvious answer is no. I’d be Muslim, Hindu, or Buddhist respectively. So how do I support my beliefs in Christianity? Does it have a case (objectively) to be any more true than any other religion (e.g. Hinduism or Pantheism)? I no longer think so.
Well the occasional theist switches gods, but only because it's easier to imagine a god that more closely suits their fancy.
Welcome, your nick is appropriate. In order to believe in gods, one truly needs to do mental acrobatics.
Quote from: aitm on February 03, 2020, 09:54:12 AM
Welcome, your nick is appropriate. In order to believe in gods, one truly needs to do mental acrobatics.
Apologetics = mental acrobatics. They teach this in seminaries, so I've been told. It raises bullshit to the level of an academic discipline. But there's a lot of other stuff about theism that is just plain nuts too.
Welcome also.
Yes, the Greeks are cool. Dolmas of the world, unite!
Roman Catholic = Roman pagan with added Jewish bits.
Quote from: SGOS on February 03, 2020, 10:06:31 AM
Apologetics = mental acrobatics. They teach this in seminaries, so I've been told. It raises bullshit to the level of an academic discipline. But there's a lot of other stuff about theism that is just plain nuts too.
Polemics and apologetics. Don't fight with one hand tied behind your back!
Quote from: AcrobaticDetective on February 02, 2020, 10:41:56 PM
Hi everyone,
I am a lifelong Catholic. But on a recent work trip, I decided to put on a documentary about Greek gods. It was during this documentary that I had a thought that turned into more of a revelation.
Though I've heard the question asked by non-theists before, for some reason this time it hit me right in the jellies. How was the Old Testament God any different than the Greek gods? How is the Genesis creation story(ies) any different than the Greek creation stories? If I was born in Saudi Arabia or India or China, would I be Christian? I think the obvious answer is no. I’d be Muslim, Hindu, or Buddhist respectively. So how do I support my beliefs in Christianity? Does it have a case (objectively) to be any more true than any other religion (e.g. Hinduism or Pantheism)? I no longer think so.
Rick Gervais' quote (which I found tonight), sums up my current thinking.
Good questions!
And welcome to our humble abode.
Have you ever heard of "
the outsider test of faith (https://religions.wiki/index.php/Outsider_test)"? It sounds a bit like your notion of whether you'd be a Christian had you been born elsewhere, in a different culture.
Also, concerning the Bible's God, it isn't portrayed as any sort of "loving" God at all:
http://nullgod.com/index.php/topic,164.0.html
In fact, it's fairly monstrous, much like the Greek gods, except perhaps even worse.
Quote from: Mike Cl on February 02, 2020, 11:44:28 PM
Welcome, Acrob (too lazy to type the whole name). And I agree with your suspicions. And I entirely agree with you in that religious beliefs is a function of geography and not facts or the teachings of real people.
Acrob will do just fine. :)
Quote from: SGOS on February 03, 2020, 08:21:07 AM
Well the occasional theist switches gods, but only because it's easier to imagine a god that more closely suits their fancy.
It's not typically a devote Catholic switching to Islam or a devout Hindu switching to Judaism, but you're right. It happens, but not that often and usually not that drastically.
Quote from: aitm on February 03, 2020, 09:54:12 AM
Welcome, your nick is appropriate. In order to believe in gods, one truly needs to do mental acrobatics.
lol fair enough
Quote from: Unbeliever on February 03, 2020, 01:43:01 PM
Good questions!
And welcome to our humble abode.
Have you ever heard of "the outsider test of faith (https://religions.wiki/index.php/Outsider_test)"? It sounds a bit like your notion of whether you'd be a Christian had you been born elsewhere, in a different culture.
Also, concerning the Bible's God, it isn't portrayed as any sort of "loving" God at all:
http://nullgod.com/index.php/topic,164.0.html
In fact, it's fairly monstrous, much like the Greek gods, except perhaps even worse.
I have not heard of it, but thank you for the suggestions. I will look into the outside test and the null god.
Welcome to our little band of heathens, detective.
Hope ye find what ye seek.
Quote from: AcrobaticDetective on February 02, 2020, 10:41:56 PMIf I was born in Saudi Arabia or India or China, would I be Christian? I think the obvious answer is no. I’d be Muslim, Hindu, or Buddhist respectively.
Undoubtedly. A surprisingly high amount of this stuff can be chaulked up to outside forces - pressure from family and from society at large to conform to certain religious beliefs. And largely, it works. If I were raised in a society that took the existence of faeries seriously, I would, too. At least for a while. But eventually, cracks form and breach this whole charade. You seem well on your way yourself.
One thing that has always bugged me about religion, as a believer and as an ex-believer: how does anyone know that any of this stuff is true?
Start fom a place with no assumptions and no conclusions. Someone talks about how something or another is a miracle or that someone's in heaven or hell. How do they know that?
And examine someone from another religion's counter-claim and their justifications. Are these any more grounded in reality than the first? Who knows what they're talking about and who does not? If the former, how do they know? If the latter, what could cause them to pretend to know?
Just the fact the religion is geographically distributed ought to tell people that their religion may not be "the one true religion." But it doesn't, for some reason.
There is a tremendous amount of lore about God, including stories from which we form opinions about his wants, needs, abilities, and how he interacts with humans. But for me, there was really only one question I had about God: "Does he exist?" While trying to hang on to my belief, this was the only thing I needed. Had I found that information, I would have been a happy camper. But I could find no evidence, and what people pointed to as evidence was inadequate and/or could easily be accounted for by reasons of psychological desire, poor reasoning skills, undocumented 3rd party testimony, and blatant use of logical fallacy. If existence cannot be proven, all the rest of his attributes and needs are irrelevant. Questions like, "Why does god love us," are not only irrelevant, but utilize the fallacy of begging the question. ("Why god loves us" assumes he exists. His existence is implied in the question, but the person offers no proof for the essential question.") The question is a waste of time. Theists waste their time chasing their tails of circular thought. I understand this. Having a buddy god is important and fills a need. Although not for me. My need is for proof, and to Hell with chasing the unicorn.
Quote from: Hydra009 on February 03, 2020, 07:46:18 PM
Undoubtedly. A surprisingly high amount of this stuff can be chaulked up to outside forces - pressure from family and from society at large to conform to certain religious beliefs. And largely, it works. If I were raised in a society that took the existence of faeries seriously, I would, too. At least for a while. But eventually, cracks form and breach this whole charade. You seem well on your way yourself.
One thing that has always bugged me about religion, as a believer and as an ex-believer: how does anyone know that any of this stuff is true?
Start fom a place with no assumptions and no conclusions. Someone talks about how something or another is a miracle or that someone's in heaven or hell. How do they know that?
And examine someone from another religion's counter-claim and their justifications. Are these any more grounded in reality than the first? Who knows what they're talking about and who does not? If the former, how do they know? If the latter, what could cause them to pretend to know?
Exactly. We just take it for granted. We're obviously raised to believe and trust our parents, teachers, doctors and religious leaders. Mom says be a gentleman, we do it. The doctor says exercise, we believe her. The priest says God told Noah to build an arc, we say cool. For those raised in abusive homes, we hope they can see past the lessons they're given. But we have instincts (maybe) that often cause us to protect what we've grown up with instead of questioning it.
Quote from: SGOS on February 03, 2020, 09:35:24 PM
There is a tremendous amount of lore about God, including stories from which we form opinions about his wants, needs, abilities, and how he interacts with humans. But for me, there was really only one question I had about God: "Does he exist?" While trying to hang on to my belief, this was the only thing I needed. Had I found that information, I would have been a happy camper. But I could find no evidence, and what people pointed to as evidence was inadequate and/or could easily be accounted for by reasons of psychological desire, poor reasoning skills, undocumented 3rd party testimony, and blatant use of logical fallacy. If existence cannot be proven, all the rest of his attributes and needs are irrelevant. Questions like, "Why does god love us," are not only irrelevant, but utilize the fallacy of begging the question. ("Why god loves us" assumes he exists. His existence is implied in the question, but the person offers no proof for the essential question.") The question is a waste of time. Theists waste their time chasing their tails of circular thought. I understand this. Having a buddy god is important and fills a need. Although not for me. My need is for proof, and to Hell with chasing the unicorn.
I can understand that. I never needed proof myself. I learned about God from so many people I loved and trusted that I took his existence for granted. But once I started debating with others, I found myself unable to say anything that didn't seem like intellectual dishonesty or mental gymnastics. When I actually spoke an apologetic argument aloud, I felt that "oh that was stupid" embarrassment in my stomach. Worried that someone would call me on it and I wouldn't have an answer.
An open mind is a good thing, as long as it isn't so loose it falls out of your skull (nihilism) ;-)
The Greek/Roman pantheon are poly theism, while the Judiah religions are monotheism.
The Greek/Roman pantheon are full of monstrous gods but not all were total dicks, some did have good in them. Just like the God of heaven there was good but in the the case of monotheism it came from a narcissistic sociopath who demanded you love him more than anything to get rewards. Jesus, the god or son of god of Christianity teachings were great until the parties and narcissistic behavior came then he was a ass worth betraying. At the same time the Greeks religion separated their gods and goddesses up into sections with the monstrous titans and the 12 dicks. Out of those 12, Zeus, Hera, Ares, Aphrodite, Athena and Hades were the worst started from nightmarish with Zeus and less than nightmarish with Hades.
Hades was a giant dick but he wasn't the devil. He just was the eldest god that got screwed into being the god of the underworld aka manager of the afterlife which includes heaven or Elysium. Really Yahweh should compare to Zeus who is very identical.
Quote from: AcrobaticDetective on February 03, 2020, 10:27:54 PM
I can understand that. I never needed proof myself. I learned about God from so many people I loved and trusted that I took his existence for granted. But once I started debating with others, I found myself unable to say anything that didn't seem like intellectual dishonesty or mental gymnastics. When I actually spoke an apologetic argument aloud, I felt that "oh that was stupid" embarrassment in my stomach. Worried that someone would call me on it and I wouldn't have an answer.
I still judge a debate on how logically it is constructed. In fact, at one time, I thought using logical fallacy was enough to disqualify a debater. I don't know why I thought that because theological debate draws heavily on fallacies. I also thought that logical fallacies were caused by lazy thinking, but not all theists are stupid, so I tend to think they are also used with outright dishonest intent. The purpose of debate is to win, not to determine truth. The so called rules of debate actually seem to be more about civility, not honesty or integrity. This makes debating with theists, pointless.
Welcome, Nightwing! I know what you mean. When you're a devote believer, you see objections to your own faith through a pair of kaleidoscopes. You just can't process them properly, even though you think you have logical ways of dismissing those objections. For me, it wasn't some documentary that made me lose my faith. It was after years of experience, trying my best to serve and please God. It was my passion and my drive. I was as immersed in it as you can go, so it pisses me off when Christians try to claim I had some flash-in-the-pan faith to dismiss what I have to say entirely. But eventually, I came to an important realization. My relationship with God was entirely one sided.
I did the work, he took the credit. I give him my time, my energy, my thoughts, and my free labor, and he gives me nothing. It wasn't that I was expecting some reward or anything, but this was supposed to be my "Heavenly Father." I could look to my Earthly father and see how he shows his love for me in real, tangible ways, so why did it seem like my Heavenly Father--who was supposed to be infinitely better than my Earthly one--was ignoring me? Why didn't he speak to me when I prayed to him? Why didn't he give me advice to help me through life? Why was it everything I was supposed to give him credit for in my life was stuff I had to work for myself? Eventually, I just had to accept that there was no one on the other side of the line. It was only then that my brain was able to think clearly. To use a common Christian term: The scales fell from my eyes.
Quote from: SGOS on February 04, 2020, 07:16:48 AM
I still judge a debate on how logically it is constructed. In fact, at one time, I thought using logical fallacy was enough to disqualify a debater. I don't know why I thought that because theological debate draws heavily on fallacies. I also thought that logical fallacies were caused by lazy thinking, but not all theists are stupid, so I tend to think they are also used with outright dishonest intent. The purpose of debate is to win, not to determine truth. The so called rules of debate actually seem to be more about civility, not honesty or integrity. This makes debating with theists, pointless.
I agree.
Quote from: Blackleaf on February 04, 2020, 12:13:54 PM
Welcome, Nightwing! I know what you mean. When you're a devote believer, you see objections to your own faith through a pair of kaleidoscopes. You just can't process them properly, even though you think you have logical ways of dismissing those objections. For me, it wasn't some documentary that made me lose my faith. It was after years of experience, trying my best to serve and please God. It was my passion and my drive. I was as immersed in it as you can go, so it pisses me off when Christians try to claim I had some flash-in-the-pan faith to dismiss what I have to say entirely. But eventually, I came to an important realization. My relationship with God was entirely one sided.
I did the work, he took the credit. I give him my time, my energy, my thoughts, and my free labor, and he gives me nothing. It wasn't that I was expecting some reward or anything, but this was supposed to be my "Heavenly Father." I could look to my Earthly father and see how he shows his love for me in real, tangible ways, so why did it seem like my Heavenly Father--who was supposed to be infinitely better than my Earthly one--was ignoring me? Why didn't he speak to me when I prayed to him? Why didn't he give me advice to help me through life? Why was it everything I was supposed to give him credit for in my life was stuff I had to work for myself? Eventually, I just had to accept that there was no one on the other side of the line. It was only then that my brain was able to think clearly. To use a common Christian term: The scales fell from my eyes.
My earthly father wasn't right in the head. So I grew up with a very odd sense of what a loving father does. The God of the old testament fit the mold very well. And the God of the new testament seemed like a dream come true. However, my scales have also fallen away (I like the twist on that phrase).
Quote from: AcrobaticDetective on February 04, 2020, 08:21:39 PM
My earthly father wasn't right in the head. So I grew up with a very odd sense of what a loving father does. The God of the old testament fit the mold very well. And the God of the new testament seemed like a dream come true. However, my scales have also fallen away (I like the twist on that phrase).
We all suffer from imperfect relationships, and those with parents are the most telling. I hope you continue to grow beyond the mistakes and abuse.
If I suggested that the very first "human" child born say....350,000 years ago, came into the world with the complete knowledge of everything from all the languages to quantum mechanics....structure of atoms, quarks, black-holes and how to make a proper brownie, but yet...for some reason could not quite grasp the female menstrual cycle but went on to create it's own universe within minutes of birth, you would no doubt squirch your eyebrows at me and simply dismiss the idea as complete stupidity.
But if I replace the "child" with a god....suddenly people say, "oh yeah, makes perfect sense."
To tell me that something has existed forever, prior to the existence of anything, but yet has knowledge of everything prior to him making it exist....is pretty absurd.
Quote from: aitm on February 05, 2020, 08:19:43 AM
If I suggested that the very first "human" child born say....350,000 years ago, came into the world with the complete knowledge of everything from all the languages to quantum mechanics....structure of atoms, quarks, black-holes and how to make a proper brownie, but yet...for some reason could not quite grasp the female menstrual cycle but went on to create it's own universe within minutes of birth, you would no doubt squirch your eyebrows at me and simply dismiss the idea as complete stupidity.
But if I replace the "child" with a god....suddenly people say, "oh yeah, makes perfect sense."
To tell me that something has existed forever, prior to the existence of anything, but yet has knowledge of everything prior to him making it exist....is pretty absurd.
"But God lives outside of time!"
Which means he can't do anything he didn't already know he was going to do. Which means he has no free will. Everything was set in stone from the very beginning, but unlike us, he had the curse to see all of infinite history before it happened, and know just how much of a slave to destiny he really is.
Quote from: aitm on February 05, 2020, 08:19:43 AM
If I suggested that the very first "human" child born say....350,000 years ago, came into the world with the complete knowledge of everything from all the languages to quantum mechanics....structure of atoms, quarks, black-holes and how to make a proper brownie, but yet...for some reason could not quite grasp the female menstrual cycle but went on to create it's own universe within minutes of birth, you would no doubt squirch your eyebrows at me and simply dismiss the idea as complete stupidity.
But if I replace the "child" with a god....suddenly people say, "oh yeah, makes perfect sense."
To tell me that something has existed forever, prior to the existence of anything, but yet has knowledge of everything prior to him making it exist....is pretty absurd.
The movie ... Baby Geniuses ;-)
Quote from: AcrobaticDetective on February 02, 2020, 10:41:56 PM
Hi everyone,
I am a lifelong Catholic. But on a recent work trip, I decided to put on a documentary about Greek gods. It was during this documentary that I had a thought that turned into more of a revelation.
Though I've heard the question asked by non-theists before, for some reason this time it hit me right in the jellies. How was the Old Testament God any different than the Greek gods? How is the Genesis creation story(ies) any different than the Greek creation stories? If I was born in Saudi Arabia or India or China, would I be Christian? I think the obvious answer is no. I’d be Muslim, Hindu, or Buddhist respectively. So how do I support my beliefs in Christianity? Does it have a case (objectively) to be any more true than any other religion (e.g. Hinduism or Pantheism)? I no longer think so.
Rick Gervais' quote (which I found tonight), sums up my current thinking.
Not sure what specifically you are referring to. So, I'll try to guess:
1. The Hell Fire doctrine - specifically the teaching that God torments people forever. Certainly a god of love would not do that - it would be worse than most of the most sadistic criminals. In contrast Jesus, in his sermon on the mount (Matthew chapters 5 - 7) taught us to love our enemies. (Matthew 5:44).
2. Christendom has the most violent history of any religious group. In contrast, Jesus' first to second century followers did not go to war - nor do those of my religion (Jehovah's Witnesses).
Quote from: Newtonian on March 21, 2020, 08:47:57 AM
Not sure what specifically you are referring to. So, I'll try to guess:
1. The Hell Fire doctrine - specifically the teaching that God torments people forever. Certainly a god of love would not do that - it would be worse than most of the most sadistic criminals. In contrast Jesus, in his sermon on the mount (Matthew chapters 5 - 7) taught us to love our enemies. (Matthew 5:44).
2. Christendom has the most violent history of any religious group. In contrast, Jesus' first to second century followers did not go to war - nor do those of my religion (Jehovah's Witnesses).
Obviously you again omit the parts where your god demands that babies have their heads smashed against rocks and that his soldiers rape little girls....yeah god of love all right.
And jebus,of course still telling people to kill their off spring for having the audacity to question things. What bullsshit you swallow. Did you at least pet the bull first? LOL
Quote from: Draconic Aiur on February 03, 2020, 11:06:54 PM
The Greek/Roman pantheon are poly theism, while the Judiah religions are monotheism.
It might be more accurate to say that Judaism
became monotheistic rather than
is monotheistic. There are a lot of linguistic clues in the early OT books that the Hebraic god was originally just one of the local gods, perhaps
primus inter pares, the rest of whom needed to be redacted out of later copies. It's not a settled matter, but it's an interesting hypothesis with some intriguing evidence.
And of course, by the time Christianity and Islam split off, Judaism was officially monotheistic and they carried that with them. Catholicism has gone back to polytheism since then, with three gods, one goddess, and a multitude of demigods.
Quote from: trdsf on March 21, 2020, 02:42:53 PM
It might be more accurate to say that Judaism became monotheistic rather than is monotheistic. There are a lot of linguistic clues in the early OT books that the Hebraic god was originally just one of the local gods, perhaps primus inter pares, the rest of whom needed to be redacted out of later copies. It's not a settled matter, but it's an interesting hypothesis with some intriguing evidence.
And of course, by the time Christianity and Islam split off, Judaism was officially monotheistic and they carried that with them. Catholicism has gone back to polytheism since then, with three gods, one goddess, and a multitude of demigods.
True. Very good point.
The babble is VERY clear that it’s god is not the only one. Just that he is more than willing to kill everyone else who finds comfort in a different one...even one that actually MAY be a real god.