The other thread on Lourdes sparked something in my mind that I have never articulated to myself before. In AA's Big Book, Bill Wilson says, "You may be the type of alcoholic that can only be cured by a spiritual experience." This is taken to mean by most members, who much of the time can be quite overzealous about AA, that you can never be happy in recovery without a spiritual experience, and indeed Bill Wilson makes enough noise about the necessary aspect of a Higher Power, and tells Agnostics, "Not to worry, you too can learn to believe."
OK, there's plenty of hogwash just like the above embedded into AA to discuss, but I felt it was necessary to mention these couple of bits to explain my latest somewhat unimportant insight, which alcoholics often refer to as a "moments of clarity:" I never realized that AA is faith healing. Yee Gods! I attended meetings to get me over the hump 25 years ago, and yes I recognized that believing in a higher power was just a placebo, but never thought of or referred to AA as "faith healing."
There are other aspects to the program that would conceivably facilitate an alcoholic's recovery. In my case, the supportive community where sobriety is celebrated, rather than bemoaned I found inspiring. Some of the 12 steps make sense when removed from their silly dependence on calling on the higher power to complete. I never formally did the steps, and I think they focused too much an Bill Wilson's personal issues, things he certainly needed to deal with that are not common to all alcoholics. What I found most powerful was my own determination to never have another drink, no matter what bullshit passed through my head.
Now think about the courts sending DUI offenders to AA meetings, which they are not supposed to do since the Supreme Court ruled that AA is religious, but they still do anyway. Would a competent judge send an alcoholic to a faith healer? I doubt it.
Some people, namely Big Pharma, think that medicine is all about handing out pills. Some people in counseling think that "talk therapy" is all that is required. Both are extreme positions. The whole person is both psychological and physiological. And there are no people, given the complexity of a human being, who can address all of that.
Of course current medical practice has many deficiencies. And it is probably true, that religious counselors have no business being fully licensed (aka 12 step). Fully qualified and competent medical personnel are rare and expensive, unless you only have a routine problem like a hangnail. If you have multiple interacting syndromes, like my daughter, the medical community is both unclear as to what is wrong, they aren't even monetized to support it. Insurance systems and medical education and inadequate general practitioners who have to rely entirely on blood and urine tests, and what the local drug rep is selling, is suboptimum.
Fact is, it doesn't take much to set up a shingle as a counselor, as it isn't a medical profession, it is more akin to chiropractery. This is true, whether your counselor is a Christian or not. This is why most mental health issues are not covered by insurance.
At one time my mother went to AA. But she didn't keep it up. And I don't know if it did any help. Kind of like anecdotal evidence of faith healing.
I grew up going to AA meetings, because baby sitters cost money. First one I was a 6 day old little baby, and then once a week until I was 12. I really have the fondest memories of that particular group. Bunch of of cow pokes drinking coffee after dark telling stories from way back when. To this day I feel deeply comforted sitting around a table with coffee mugs discussing something.
As an adult I have had some buddies with serious drinking problems who reached out to AA, and in a few cases I have tagged along to meeting as an al-anon. Sadly the meting I went to didn't seem good, I didn't like it, something made my skin crawl which I cannot put to words. Didn't have the sense of community I grew up with. Moral of the story being that some groups are really doing great stuff and have a charm to 'em, and other groups are just people going through the motions.
That group I liked, grew up with, it had one fella who was more or less the leader. Good guy, left most of his guts on the jungle floor in Vietnam, also left any faith he could have ever had in religion lying next to them. He wasn't just an atheist in ascribing to a metaphysical doctrine, he was personally mad about the whole notion of religion. But, also had a big big drinking problem, and times being as they were AA (and its religious baggage) was the only game in his little town for help. Got to studying the Big Book and the steps and all these things, and he came across the thing about the higher power. You can imagine the guys emotional frustration at this, right? Well he decided that his 'higher power' was a door knob. A literal door knob. When he was struggling he would look at a door knob, and know that unless you turn that, you ain't going to the bar. People can make what they want out of a path.
It takes an alcoholic to understand one. It takes a drug addict to understand one etc. This is why the best drug counselors are former alcoholics, former drug addicts etc. In theory AA is a group encounter with people like that, but without the education. Basically out-patient therapy. For some folks, that minimal approach isn't enough, particularly if one has abused the harder stuff.
People are free to do what they going to do, and that often means spiting any attempt to figure them out, on purpose more than occasionally. That's why there ain't no miracle cure, at bare minimum an addict gotta be on board with getting clean, and as a general rule an addict loves their substance. Got a family member who is doing real bad on some hard addictions, and some nasty behavior.
Once in a while he comes over and gets a hot meal, or a ride to a court appearance. Beyond that unless he decides to make a change, it is what it is.
I've never been an addict, well not to a chemical anyway, so I only understand it dimly; but I understand well enough how much of a cuss I can be when someone tries to change me.
That's a big problem with AA, actually, not the group in and of it self, but the way they do the DWI court orders. I remember dudes showing up because a judge said so, vast vast majority of the times it was a waste, and it detracted from the meeting over all. I wish AA groups were more inclined to tell judges to keep in their own lane.
A group of people who ave done something difficult and still join together in fellowship, that's beauty. A philosophy that invokes a higher power, well it functions and people can make of it what they will, its not exactly a missionary program, besides it can be a good head space for a lot of people struggling with very serious past traumas. But compelling people to go, that's kinda weird to me.
"You have to surrender to a higher power!"
"No, we don't mean 'god', we mean something you can recognize as having power over you."
"No, scotch doesn't count in this case."
Quote from: SGOS on November 25, 2019, 10:21:36 AM
Now think about the courts sending DUI offenders to AA meetings, which they are not supposed to do since the Supreme Court ruled that AA is religious, but they still do anyway. Would a competent judge send an alcoholic to a faith healer? I doubt it.
Several years ago a judge made me go to about 3 dozen AA meetings. I went to 9 and told the judge there was just too much religion in it. He said "Oh, I didn't know that." Then he sent me to some sort of thing where I'd have to pay a bunch of money, of which I had none at all. So when I told the judge that he just put me on court probation. Now
that I could do.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on November 25, 2019, 12:26:17 PM
"You have to surrender to a higher power!"
"No, we don't mean 'god', we mean something you can recognize as having power over you."
"No, scotch doesn't count in this case."
Addicts surrender to a higher power ... their addiction. Even as a demi-god I consider G-d my superior. Of course, if one's life is based on fighting your parents or other adults of your childhood ... one is a perpetual bad kid.
Quote from: Unbeliever on November 25, 2019, 01:30:59 PM
Several years ago a judge made me go to about 3 dozen AA meetings. I went to 9 and told the judge there was just too much religion in it. He said "Oh, I didn't know that." Then he sent me to some sort of thing where I'd have to pay a bunch of money, of which I had none at all. So when I told the judge that he just put me on court probation. Now that I could do.
AA could only work with certain kinds of Christians. Of course judges are idiots.
a tremendous amount of churches establish "non-denominational" AA groups. The reality is they are just throwing smaller nets in the hope. Every saved soul is another fiver in the church box. Preacher needs his dough.
Quote from: aitm on November 26, 2019, 03:06:43 PM
a tremendous amount of churches establish "non-denominational" AA groups. The reality is they are just throwing smaller nets in the hope. Every saved soul is another fiver in the church box. Preacher needs his dough.
I suppose they pick up a few. In my AA group I often heard people say they converted to AA from other religions. I don't know any that returned to their original church. But groups vary and there is lot of variance within groups. Atheists are rare. I attended meetings in several states. I never met another atheist. Nor anyone that claimed to be a former atheist, despite claims in stories and literature that this happens making it sound like many come to believe on a regular basis.
Don't know how it is in America for sure.
But we once had an AA-speaker come over to work to explain his organisation. Before the talk I told my colleagues, 'watch it, they are a bit cult-y'. They didn't believe me.
Dude spent 45 minutes of his allotted half hour rambling on in a confused manner and expressing at least 100 times how they were not a cult.
My colleagues told me I was right, afterwards.
I saw a list of cult characteristics a long time ago. AA fit them to a "T." But then so does Christianity. Same thing over there, I guess. Cults don't call themselves cults.
The only difference between a mainstream religion and a cult is the size of their voting block.
I think ALL religions are cults. The big ones like to look down upon and beat up on the smaller ones. I also think Trump is a cult leader (or mob boss--not much difference there) which is why he can do anything and his base still backs him.
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on November 27, 2019, 12:49:06 AM
Don't know how it is in America for sure.
But we once had an AA-speaker come over to work to explain his organisation. Before the talk I told my colleagues, 'watch it, they are a bit cult-y'. They didn't believe me.
Dude spent 45 minutes of his allotted half hour rambling on in a confused manner and expressing at least 100 times how they were not a cult.
My colleagues told me I was right, afterwards.
But anything religious is distrusted in the EU. It is part of 200+ doubling down on the French Revolution. The US has a completely different revolutionary tradition, that doesn't have the "peasant revolt" aspect of European history.
Not everything, though most of my colleagues also seem to be atheist.
Church is still pretty big here too. My sister works for a religious charity organization.
She's atheist too, I think, but hey, what are you going to do.
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on November 27, 2019, 06:54:56 PM
Not everything, though most of my colleagues also seem to be atheist.
Church is still pretty big here too. My sister works for a religious charity organization.
She's atheist too, I think, but hey, what are you going to do.
Since King Clovis, there have been "no true Christians" in Europe anyway, even if there were "true Scotsmen" in Scotland. Y'all might as well revert to hallucinogenic mushroom driven Viking berzerkers.
Christian refugees in colonial America were a potential new start. And it has worked out better here than in Europe. I am being sympathetic. I am sorry for all the self inflicted Hell Europeans have done to themselves since my last relative managed to escape back in the 19th century. A lot of nth cousins must have died prematurely in the last 150 years who stayed behind.
Quote from: SGOS on November 25, 2019, 10:21:36 AM
The other thread on Lourdes sparked something in my mind that I have never articulated to myself before. In AA's Big Book, Bill Wilson says, "You may be the type of alcoholic that can only be cured by a spiritual experience." ...
Actually, there might be something to this. There is ongoing and promising research on the efficacy of hallucinogens in treating addictions. Basically the "spiritual" experience induced by psychedelics has measurable therapeutic value.
https://www.nature.com/news/lsd-helps-to-treat-alcoholism-1.10200
... Of 536 participants in six trials, 59% of people receiving LSD reported lower levels of alcohol misuse, compared to 38% of people who received a placebo. “We were surprised that the effect was so clear and consistent,†says Krebs. She says that the problem with most studies done at that time was that there were too few participants, which limited statistical power. “But when you combine the data in a meta-analysis, we have more than 500 patients and there is definitely an effect,†she says. In general, the reported benefits lasted three to six months. Their findings are published today in the Journal of Psychopharmacology. ...
Hey gymrat, It's good to see you. I've wondered where you had gone, and hope all is well.
I read a book I found in the College Bookstore back in the early 70s called LSD Psychotherapy, and by that time as I recall, most of the studies had ended, and the conclusion was that there could be a benefit to using hallucinogens to treat emotional issues, but it was hit and miss, sometimes with unreasonably harsh side effects. I understand the interest has been renewed mostly in regards to treating alcoholism, now 50 years later. I have read a couple of he current articles, just in the last month.
And the articles I've read, while optimistic, also point out the negative side effects. I'm waiting to see if the FDA approves the use beyond clinical trials. I spent a couple of years in college doing drugs daily, and have had experience with LSD and about every other thing you could buy on the street, and I could have told the researchers that it works, but of course I would have been considered just another unsupervised recreational user, but not with the authority of Timothy Leary. And most junkies could have told the researchers the same thing. There can be something in it, but be ready to lose a few subjects to the mental wards.
Using hallucinogenics to promote personal growth is the like dream interpretation on steroids. There will be insights embedded in the chaotic nonsense of both, although for me dream analysis was more productive, and without the psychotic breaks. These chemicals are powerful and unpredictable. OK, researchers are there to supervise the experience, but like college kids often had a buddy there to "talk them down." But those conditions can be the worst experiences of your life far worse than experiencing the grief of a loved one. Benefits that last three to six months don't interest me. Personal growth is for life.
But lets return to the issue of the spiritual experience claimed by Bill Wilson, and observed by both researchers and the junkies of my college days. Yes they happen. I've had two spiritual experiences in my teens, but long before I did drugs for those two years. They were wonderfully euphoric, and I felt close to God. It was unexpected and more euphoric than anything I had experienced before, and I could understand they can be life changing. Later when going through counseling, I had the exact same experiences, but with no God involved, and like my "spiritual" experiences they were transient. Euphoria is transient.
So the question is, and I think this is important, "What is a spiritual experience, and how is it any different than a profound insight in self growth? Now most alcoholics, at least the ones who have gotten out of the trap, abide by the saying, "If it works to get you off the sauce, use it." And I agree. Alcoholism is not as bad as a psychotic break on drugs, but it's a close second, and there is truth in one of AAs favorite bumper stickers, "Are You Willing to Go to Any Lengths?" Hell, I would have sought out God again, if I needed to, just to get sober. But is God and/or spirituality the common thread in recovery/growth, or is it commitment? Or is it something else? I'm betting on commitment? I've watched Bible Thumping alcoholics praise God for their sobriety, only to see many/most of them fail. Those that commit to God and fail are only "half in." They need to commit to sobriety. There may be other issues too.
Bill Wilson got his start in a fundamentalist religion called the Oxford Group. He couldn't have a bowel movement without involving God in it, so it's no surprise that he saw God as his salvation for everything from saving his eternal soul from a fiery Hell to curing his alcoholism, smoking, and womanizing, which continued to bother him deeply through his life. He was an advocate of LSD as a path to God, and actually participated in some of those early experiments.
The reason my spiritual experiences in my high school years went nowhere was because I could not keep logic out of it. I had no training in logic. I simply kept looking for proof of God. The experience of God was euphoric, but that's an emotion and not proof. I had a vague idea of psychology and knew intuitively that beliefs do not a God make. And this is what my first post was about. Current research may find drugs useful in psychotherapy. It may find spiritual experiences useful, just as it may find placebos to be useful. Hopefully, the researchers are not looking for spiritual cures, just cures, because I don't believe they will ever find an actual God or spirituality. Is walking in the woods and having a heart swelling sense of awe, spirituality? Or is it just another manifestation of love? I would rather not discuss spirituality without a clear definition of what that is. And even then I may question the definition.
Quote from: SGOS on February 16, 2020, 11:39:54 AM
Hey gymrat, It's good to see you. I've wondered where you had gone, and hope all is well.
All is well. I read a book on digital minimalism and decided to limit my time online. I reallocated the time I was spending online to reading more books and meditating. I even went on a 7-day, vegan, no reading, no talking, meditation retreat, which is by far the most hippie thing I have ever done.
Quote from: SGOS on February 16, 2020, 11:39:54 AM
Current research may find drugs useful in psychotherapy. It may find spiritual experiences useful, just as it may find placebos to be useful. Hopefully, the researchers are not looking for spiritual cures, just cures, because I don't believe they will ever find an actual God or spirituality. Is walking in the woods and having a heart swelling sense of awe, spirituality? Or is it just another manifestation of love? I would rather not discuss spirituality without a clear definition of what that is. And even then I may question the definition.
In terms of research, most of the studies I've read have focused on whether there is a measurable therapeutic effect, not why. Many people who have participated describe their experience as "spiritual" and one study did have a definition of this experience including loss of sense of self, visual perceptual changes and other conditions but I can't find the study. I have experienced awe regarding nature but I've never had what I consider a spiritual experience and I don't think I've experienced euphoria.
Quote from: GSOgymrat on February 16, 2020, 02:47:26 PM
All is well. I read a book on digital minimalism and decided to limit my time online. I reallocated the time I was spending online to reading more books and meditating. I even went on a 7-day, vegan, no reading, no talking, meditation retreat, which is by far the most hippie thing I have ever done.
I've actually limited my time on line recently. I've found other things to waste my time on.
Quote from: GSOgymrat on February 16, 2020, 02:47:26 PM
In terms of research, most of the studies I've read have focused on whether there is a measurable therapeutic effect, not why. Many people who have participated describe their experience as "spiritual" and one study did have a definition of this experience including loss of sense of self, visual perceptual changes and other conditions but I can't find the study. I have experienced awe regarding nature but I've never had what I consider a spiritual experience and I don't think I've experienced euphoria.
The studies I've read about that's what I'm picking up by the data end of it. Some articles sensationalize the studies, and make it sound like they are onto a new tool.