I just don't understand how we are suppose to argue a woman with a paralyzed hand dunking it into the water and suddenly she was use it? I mean yeah it was 1858 but how early was it documented? How well were early cases documented ? Please someone help me, I'm actually losing my mind
Unless I witness a "miracle" myself, I'm prepared to deny that it was a miracle. Too many ways for people to be fooled, or duped, into believing absurdities. And people who believe absurdities too often commit atrocities.
Quote from: Unbeliever on November 22, 2019, 01:46:39 PM
Unless I witness a "miracle" myself, I'm prepared to deny that it was a miracle. Too many ways for people to be fooled, or duped, into believing absurdities. And people who believe absurdities too often commit atrocities.
But there have been whole board of medical committees set up at Lourdes to document what happened, and some of their cases are astounding
But to say that "we don't know how it happened, so it must have been God that did it" is an argumentum ignorantiam. I need better evidence than that.
Quote from: Unbeliever on November 22, 2019, 02:32:55 PM
But to say that "we don't know how it happened, so it must have been God that did it" is an argumentum ignorantiam. I need better evidence than that.
I know. I'm just. I come from a Catholic home and a csrholic cukt like church and I am so terrified of someday being convinced to go back
A guy I knew who was newly converted to fundamentalism told me that he heard about a guy who broke his leg. As he was laying there in pain, another fundamentalist laid his hand on the guy's leg and prayed to God, and as he did, he could feel the broken bone in the leg mend. Surely, you can't deny that story.
Quote from: SGOS on November 22, 2019, 02:40:04 PM
A guy I knew who was newly converted to fundamentalism told me that he heard about a guy who broke his leg. As he was laying there in pain, another fundamentalist laid his hand on the guy's leg and prayed to God, and as he did, he could feel the broken bone in the leg mend. Surely, you can't deny that story.
Well no but Lourdes has an entire medical committe to examine modern cures
How many prosthetic limbs are there in that pile of crutches? How many glass eyeballs?
https://whywontgodhealamputees.com/
Why would people have to go to France to be healed by a God that is, literally, everywhere?
Quote from: Syrimoon on November 22, 2019, 01:33:20 PM
I just don't understand how we are suppose to argue a woman with a paralyzed hand dunking it into the water and suddenly she was use it? I mean yeah it was 1858 but how early was it documented? How well were early cases documented ? Please someone help me, I'm actually losing my mind
All diagnosis of miraculous cures, would show that these were psychosomatic problems to begin with. The patient's mind was affecting their body in a particularly negative way, a kind of hysteria. Once the hysteria dissipates then that component of the dis-ease is ameliorated.
To the patient psychosomatic dis-ease is just as real as organic disease (the result of infection or injury).
Quote from: Syrimoon on November 22, 2019, 02:12:20 PM
But there have been whole board of medical committees set up at Lourdes to document what happened, and some of their cases are astounding
Medical boards are like kangaroo courts, they often hop around. Don't trust experts. Trust your lying eyes.
Quote from: Syrimoon on November 22, 2019, 02:39:20 PM
I know. I'm just. I come from a Catholic home and a csrholic cukt like church and I am so terrified of someday being convinced to go back
You have a complicated dialectic between yourself and your family, your Church and your self identity. Take baby steps. Accept that things will turn out all right, even if you can't read a crystal ball any better than I can.
My wise daughter shares with me ... don't try to rationally argue with your family. If rational argument helps you, then do that. But it doesn't work between people. The other people here who know me, know that is true ;-) Tell your brother how you feel, not how you think. For example "I don't fell comfortable with the RCC, or with religion" "The RCC or religion makes me feel angry/ fearful/ anxious/ confused etc. Get them to share their feelings about the RCC, religion, your situation. Yea, guys don't like to be in touch with and express emotions. Fear of family conflict suppresses honest exchange of emotions. But that is the problem itself. It is psychological, not theological.
Quote from: Baruch on November 22, 2019, 03:40:28 PM
All diagnosis of miraculous cures, would show that these were psychosomatic problems to begin with. The patient's mind was affecting their body in a particularly negative way, a kind of hysteria. Once the hysteria dissipates then that component of the dis-ease is ameliorated.
To the patient psychosomatic dis-ease is just as real as organic disease (the result of infection or injury).
I mean for some, but for cancer or MS?
Quote from: Unbeliever on November 22, 2019, 03:23:30 PM
Why would people have to go to France to be healed by a God that is, literally, everywhere?
G-d is testing them. And helping Air France ;-(
Quote from: Syrimoon on November 22, 2019, 03:52:41 PM
I mean for some, but for cancer or MS?
If they are psychosomatic, then yes. There are many kinds of disease. And they manifest differently in each individual differently, each time.. Even from the natural POV, this is why medicine is hard. Your mind effects the health of your whole body. If the mind is sufficiently broken, the effects are horrifying. When my mother was nearing her end, and was in temporary psychosis at the hospital, it was something I didn't want to experience, nor for her to. This is why medical personnel who care, burn out quickly.
Quote from: Syrimoon on November 22, 2019, 02:52:16 PM
Well no but Lourdes has an entire medical committe to examine modern cures
Back in the day, many, many scientists were fooled by mediums into believing they (the mediums) were able to talk to and hear dead people. Stage magicians were able to see past their crap and show how they were cheating. Cheating for money, no less.
I wonder how much money the town of Lourdes takes in every year from tourists and those who are hoping for a healing?
Still waiting for a reason there are no prosthetic limbs in with the canes and crutches.
Tourism miracle has turned water into profits (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/feb/09/france.catholicism)
Quote from: Unbeliever on November 22, 2019, 04:57:07 PM
Tourism miracle has turned water into profits (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/feb/09/france.catholicism)
Was there ever any other reason to run a tourist trap like this?
Religion can be a very lucrative enterprise.
Quote from: Unbeliever on November 22, 2019, 05:23:16 PM
Religion can be a very lucrative enterprise.
"The way to make a million dollars is to start a religion." L. Ron Hubbard
Quote from: Baruch on November 22, 2019, 03:59:43 PM
If they are psychosomatic, then yes. There are many kinds of disease. And they manifest differently in each individual differently, each time.. Even from the natural POV, this is why medicine is hard. Your mind effects the health of your whole body. If the mind is sufficiently broken, the effects are horrifying. When my mother was nearing her end, and was in temporary psychosis at the hospital, it was something I didn't want to experience, nor for her to. This is why medical personnel who care, burn out quickly.
I mean I follow you but I feel like these are way too solid and substantial problems to be all in their heads?
Quote from: Syrimoon on November 22, 2019, 05:56:50 PM
I mean I follow you but I feel like these are way too solid and substantial problems to be all in their heads?
Why? They talked themselves into that situation, they have been known to talk themselves out of it. And you can't generalize here, each case should be taken on its own merits.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on November 22, 2019, 06:16:19 PM
Why? They talked themselves into that situation, they have been known to talk themselves out of it. And you can't generalize here, each case should be taken on its own merits.
But children and oaraglegics and eyesore healing and scarring disappearing before their eyes ...im sorry, I m ofnthis sounds stupid but unexplained miracle is making the most sense to me and I hate it
Quote from: Syrimoon on November 22, 2019, 06:21:24 PM
But children and oaraglegics and eyesore healing and scarring disappearing before their eyes ...im sorry, I m ofnthis sounds stupid but unexplained miracle is making the most sense to me and I hate it
Bullshit, you're a believer and a concern troll. You couldn't be more obvious.
Quote from: Syrimoon on November 22, 2019, 06:21:24 PM
But children and oaraglegics and eyesore healing and scarring disappearing before their eyes ...im sorry, I m ofnthis sounds stupid but unexplained miracle is making the most sense to me and I hate it
I hear stories of healing, but that's all they are to me, just stories.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on November 22, 2019, 07:01:28 PM
Bullshit, you're a believer and a concern troll. You couldn't be more obvious.
No, im...i don't know what I am now but I don't/want/ to believe. I'm sorry I just had several years of religious trauma
Quote from: Unbeliever on November 22, 2019, 07:05:43 PM
I hear stories of healing, but that's all they are to me, just stories.
I can admit I'm a little frustrated and overwhelmed by how we don't have straight answers readily available to each and every case, especially the oldest ones since they seem the most wild
Many people had religious parents and communities as kids. I sure did. When I was 14 I was "on fire for God" as the Baptists called it, but I began to have major doubts after reading the Bible. I was told by my pastor and family that I should read "God's Word" so I did. After I finished I was no longer a believer in the Bible's truth. I didn't become an atheist until long after that, but I stopped being a Christian.
I recommend reading the whole Bible to anyone who wants to convert me to Christianity, but they almost never do. Only a very small percentage of Christians have read the entire thing, because it's a very confusing and boring book. I'm convinced that they don't really believe it to be God's Holy Word, any more than I do.
Quote from: Syrimoon on November 22, 2019, 07:33:44 PM
I can admit I'm a little frustrated and overwhelmed by how we don't have straight answers readily available to each and every case, especially the oldest ones since they seem the most wild
The burden of proof is on them if they want people to believe their stories. It's not on us to prove they're not miracles.
Quote from: Unbeliever on November 22, 2019, 07:39:35 PM
The burden of proof is on them if they want people to believe their stories. It's not on us to prove they're not miracles.
It's also to be noted that the doctors working on modern cases are only there the say, idk man, idk, then the miracle gets passed on to religion
I'm not especially impressed by a group of "doctors" claiming miracles. Let's see them fool Penn and Teller.
Quote from: Syrimoon on November 22, 2019, 07:33:44 PM
I can admit I'm a little frustrated and overwhelmed by how we don't have straight answers readily available to each and every case, especially the oldest ones since they seem the most wild
Think about it a little bit. What is the actual outcome of the Catholic religion? It was used by Constantine as crowd control. And once the crowd is controlled, what is the next step? Making money. does it matter if a miracle actually happened or can (or not) be proven? No. why? For those with 'Faith' is does not need to be proven. And the church hierarchy insists that it is true--now, give me money. Look at what the Pope wears. He could finance a small country with his finery. Did Jesus ever wear any of that stuff???? The Catholic church is about crowd control, money and political power. Miracles and icons (which are idols is you think about it) and stories from afar are simply window dressing and tools used to minulipate the masses.
How can the RCC claim that Simon/Peter was the "first pope" after he denied knowing Jesus - three times? Do the subsequent popes have a ritual denial of Jesus before they can become the pope?
Quote from: Unbeliever on November 22, 2019, 07:55:09 PM
I'm not especially impressed by a group of "doctors" claiming miracles. Let's see them fool Penn and Teller.
From what I can gather their role is to examine and rule out any known cause, though it's e tkrelt plausible that had it occurred a fee years later we would know a cause
And how would Bernadette have known to call the image the immaculate conception, a new name ? Did she hear it in passing at church and memorize it?
Quote from: Syrimoon on November 22, 2019, 07:32:18 PM
No, im...i don't know what I am now but I don't/want/ to believe. I'm sorry I just had several years of religious trauma
You're looking for an excuse to stay. Get over it. You're no more alone out here in the real world.
Quote from: Syrimoon on November 22, 2019, 07:52:16 PM
It's also to be noted that the doctors working on modern cases are only there the say, idk man, idk, then the miracle gets passed on to religion
Religion has zero answers.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on November 23, 2019, 05:48:42 AM
You're looking for an excuse to stay. Get over it. You're no more alone out here in the real world.
I was never in religion to not feel alone. I waa never happy as a theist. It was nonstop loneliness and terror and rigidity. I was a theist because I thought there was a god and that terrified me, and that's why I'm freaking out about a huge group of apparent miracles that I haven't seen anyone provide a solid refutation for
Quote from: Syrimoon on November 22, 2019, 07:33:44 PM
I can admit I'm a little frustrated and overwhelmed by how we don't have straight answers readily available to each and every case, especially the oldest ones since they seem the most wild
If you are not prepared to deal with the amount of bullshit in religion then you could probably join a church and accept it all as true. Your problem would then be solved. I had the same dilemma at one time. I deal with it by disregarding anything that comes from a church. This is not a planned strategy. It's just that after being fed so much bullshit in my formative years, I no longer have enough interest in religion's bullshit to even care. I spent 30 years of my life, trying to make sense out of the nonsense, and failing at every turn. Life is too short to waste so much time chasing a unicorn.
Quote from: Syrimoon on November 22, 2019, 07:52:16 PM
It's also to be noted that the doctors working on modern cases are only there the say, idk man, idk, then the miracle gets passed on to religion
Found this in 15 seconds of google of 'Lourdes skeptic'. Hundreds more.
Lourdes
In 1858, at a grotto by the river Gave near Lourdes, France, a 14-year-old peasant named Bernadette Soubirous claimed that the Virgin Mary, identifying herself as "the Immaculate Conception," appeared to her some 18 times.* You'd think such a great number of visitations would have provided an opportunity to channel a short theological treatise of some significance. It seems, however, that the main message from the alleged "mother of a god" was: "Pray and do penance for the conversion of the world." Oh, and take a drink of the spring water.
To its eternal discredit, the Roman Catholic Church investigated Soubirous's claims for four years before approving devotion to Our Lady of Lourdes. Since then, the Church has validated 67 miracles at Lourdes* (of the thousands that have been reported*) and canonized the peasant girl.* (Her body, which is on display, is alleged to be incorruptible, but the face and hands, which look so lifelike, are made of wax.) It is estimated that in recent years about 5 million pilgrims a year visit the shrine at Lourdes. Over the past 150 years, some 200 million people have made the pilgrimage.* For those who care, that's a success rate of .0000335% or 1 out of every 3 million. Furthermore, since 1947 anyone claiming a miraculous cure has to go before a medical board. "From 1947 to 1990, only 1,000 cures were claimed and only 56 were recognized in that time, averaging 1.3 cures a year, against 57 a year before 1914."* Since 1978, there have been only four recognized cures.* So, if you're thinking of going to Lourdes for a miracle cure, the odds are not very high in your favor. Pilgrims might find some consolation in a British study that tested miracle-seekers at regular intervals for a year after they visited Lourdes and found that they were significantly less anxious and depressed.* Who wouldn't be cheered up by a trip to southern France and by being surrounded by people much worse off than yourself?
Of all the cures alleged to have occurred at Lourdes, however, none have involved dramatic, unambiguous events like the growing back of a severed limb. Belgian philosopher Etienne Vermeersch likened this fact to the lack of clear, unambiguous data in support of the existence of Bigfoot or the Loch Ness monster. He also claimed that there have probably been significantly more fatal accidents suffered by pilgrims on their way to or from Lourdes than there have been cures.
The fact that the stories of miracles found in the scriptures of various religions involve cases that could be explained naturalistically (raising the dead or curing cancer...well, he wasn't really dead or she didn't really have cancer) or dismissed as mythological (born of a virgin, resurrected into heaven, survived three days under water) led Vermeersch to coin the expression "Lourdes effect" to describe this curious lack of a single unambiguous miracle by all the alleged miracle workers who have dazzled crowds for millennia. Why do supernatural powers resist manifesting themselves in a clear way? It's certainly not a matter of difficulty.
The grotto near Lourdes in 1858
Lourdes has a population of around 15,000. To accommodate the 5 million pilgrims who descend on the town each year, there are some 270 hotels. Only Paris has more hotels in France. Needless to say, business is good. The water's free if you go there. For those who can't make the trip, many enterprising folks will bring Lourdes to you: they sell water from the spring (100â,¬ will get you 1 liter). The water is believed to have healing properties. It certainly generates a lot of hope and revenue thanks to the continuing abundance of wishful and magical thinking among the afflicted. But the odds of anyone being cured of anything except thirst by this water are less than favorable, excluding, of course, those cured by a placebo effect.
Quote from: SGOS on November 23, 2019, 09:11:42 AM
If you are not prepared to deal with the amount of bullshit in religion then you could probably join a church and accept it all as true. Your problem would then be solved. I had the same dilemma at one time. I deal with it by disregarding anything that comes from a church. This is not a planned strategy. It's just that after being fed so much bullshit in my formative years, I no longer have enough interest in religion's bullshit to even care. I spent 30 years of my life, trying to make sense out of the nonsense, and failing at every turn. Life is too short to waste so much time chasing a unicorn.
O spent 25, so I understand. I don't know. Something on me keeps saying, you're in denial, you know the church is true bow, you're just refusing to go back...but couldn't that just be my anxiety and trauma telling me the absolute worst case scenario is gonna happen ?
Quote from: Mike Cl on November 23, 2019, 09:23:09 AM
Found this in 15 seconds of google of 'Lourdes skeptic'. Hundreds more.
Lourdes
In 1858, at a grotto by the river Gave near Lourdes, France, a 14-year-old peasant named Bernadette Soubirous claimed that the Virgin Mary, identifying herself as "the Immaculate Conception," appeared to her some 18 times.* You'd think such a great number of visitations would have provided an opportunity to channel a short theological treatise of some significance. It seems, however, that the main message from the alleged "mother of a god" was: "Pray and do penance for the conversion of the world." Oh, and take a drink of the spring water.
To its eternal discredit, the Roman Catholic Church investigated Soubirous's claims for four years before approving devotion to Our Lady of Lourdes. Since then, the Church has validated 67 miracles at Lourdes* (of the thousands that have been reported*) and canonized the peasant girl.* (Her body, which is on display, is alleged to be incorruptible, but the face and hands, which look so lifelike, are made of wax.) It is estimated that in recent years about 5 million pilgrims a year visit the shrine at Lourdes. Over the past 150 years, some 200 million people have made the pilgrimage.* For those who care, that's a success rate of .0000335% or 1 out of every 3 million. Furthermore, since 1947 anyone claiming a miraculous cure has to go before a medical board. "From 1947 to 1990, only 1,000 cures were claimed and only 56 were recognized in that time, averaging 1.3 cures a year, against 57 a year before 1914."* Since 1978, there have been only four recognized cures.* So, if you're thinking of going to Lourdes for a miracle cure, the odds are not very high in your favor. Pilgrims might find some consolation in a British study that tested miracle-seekers at regular intervals for a year after they visited Lourdes and found that they were significantly less anxious and depressed.* Who wouldn't be cheered up by a trip to southern France and by being surrounded by people much worse off than yourself?
Of all the cures alleged to have occurred at Lourdes, however, none have involved dramatic, unambiguous events like the growing back of a severed limb. Belgian philosopher Etienne Vermeersch likened this fact to the lack of clear, unambiguous data in support of the existence of Bigfoot or the Loch Ness monster. He also claimed that there have probably been significantly more fatal accidents suffered by pilgrims on their way to or from Lourdes than there have been cures.
The fact that the stories of miracles found in the scriptures of various religions involve cases that could be explained naturalistically (raising the dead or curing cancer...well, he wasn't really dead or she didn't really have cancer) or dismissed as mythological (born of a virgin, resurrected into heaven, survived three days under water) led Vermeersch to coin the expression "Lourdes effect" to describe this curious lack of a single unambiguous miracle by all the alleged miracle workers who have dazzled crowds for millennia. Why do supernatural powers resist manifesting themselves in a clear way? It's certainly not a matter of difficulty.
The grotto near Lourdes in 1858
Lourdes has a population of around 15,000. To accommodate the 5 million pilgrims who descend on the town each year, there are some 270 hotels. Only Paris has more hotels in France. Needless to say, business is good. The water's free if you go there. For those who can't make the trip, many enterprising folks will bring Lourdes to you: they sell water from the spring (100â,¬ will get you 1 liter). The water is believed to have healing properties. It certainly generates a lot of hope and revenue thanks to the continuing abundance of wishful and magical thinking among the afflicted. But the odds of anyone being cured of anything except thirst by this water are less than favorable, excluding, of course, those cured by a placebo effect.
I have read that, indeed. I've read all i can.
It comes back to this am one really-
How do we explain things like a man regaining his sight or a woman's paralysis stopping?
We're they already feeling signs of healing and used the water for a minute of fame? But the blind man was a skeptic, he didn't believe, he claimed he was blond before and bot after, and his doctor examined him after
Shit like that
Quote from: Syrimoon on November 23, 2019, 08:57:54 AM
I'm freaking out about a huge group of apparent miracles that I haven't seen anyone provide a solid refutation for
This has already been pointed out. You must have disregarded it: It is not up to you to refute such extraordinary claims. Proving the claim is up to the claimant. If he can't to that he's got nothing. Theists usually support bullshit claims by referring to other bullshit, some of which is made up on the spot. Unfortunately, doubling down with more bullshit is not rational support. It's just twice as much bullshit. As a last resort, theists sometimes say, "Well then, you prove it's not true." This is lazy and irresponsible. Don't waste my time.
I'm an agnostic and an atheist. As such, I'm just an observer waiting for theists to convince me. I have no investment any of this. I'm just waiting. I don't need to prove or disprove anything. I'm just watching and waiting for good evidence. You can tell me god cured a blind guy. But that's just a claim, and claims are a dime a dozen. I'm not interested in empty claims.
Quote from: Syrimoon on November 23, 2019, 09:23:53 AM
O spent 25, so I understand. I don't know. Something on me keeps saying, you're in denial, you know the church is true bow, you're just refusing to go back...but couldn't that just be my anxiety and trauma telling me the absolute worst case scenario is gonna happen ?
Been there. I was brain beaten as a child by a Baptist grandmother. Those Baptists know a thing or two about indoctrinating the young and the weak. You don't recover from that kind of brainwashing with a snap of the fingers, especially if you've been told you will rot in Hell if you don't buy the bullshit. It took me 30 years to rid myself of that 10 years of brainwashing. No, I redid the math. It took me 40 years.
Quote from: Syrimoon on November 23, 2019, 09:26:57 AM
How do we explain things like a man regaining his sight or a woman's paralysis stopping?
Well, there's medical science. There's the psychosomatic explanation. And there's the explanation that none of it actually happened. You could pick any one of those. Or you could wait for someone to offer proof that it really did happen. Or you could quit worrying about it, and get on with your life.
Quote from: Syrimoon on November 22, 2019, 09:53:20 PM
And how would Bernadette have known to call the image the immaculate conception, a new name ? Did she hear it in passing at church and memorize it?
Imagination. We all have it. Not saying the new name is bad. Of course Virgin Mary was originally Isis and Artemis of Ephesus. So she is used to being poly-valent. Typical woman.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on November 22, 2019, 05:03:20 PM
Was there ever any other reason to run a tourist trap like this?
Originally pilgrims would have walked to Santiago Compostella for St James' blessing. But France didn't want Spain to get all the money. Lourdes is on the path to Santiago Compostella.
Quote from: Syrimoon on November 22, 2019, 05:56:50 PM
I mean I follow you but I feel like these are way too solid and substantial problems to be all in their heads?
Psychosomatic isn't psycho. It is body plus mind. If a non-mental problem was cured, then it wasn't Lourdes.
Quote from: Syrimoon on November 23, 2019, 08:57:54 AM
I was never in religion to not feel alone. I waa never happy as a theist. It was nonstop loneliness and terror and rigidity. I was a theist because I thought there was a god and that terrified me, and that's why I'm freaking out about a huge group of apparent miracles that I haven't seen anyone provide a solid refutation for
And you never will see a solid refutation that you will accept.
Quote from: Syrimoon on November 22, 2019, 07:33:44 PM
I can admit I'm a little frustrated and overwhelmed by how we don't have straight answers readily available to each and every case, especially the oldest ones since they seem the most wild
Doctors knew very little, even in the 20th century. Before 1950 they new almost nothing. Old cures can't be verified since the patient has since died.
Quote from: Syrimoon on November 23, 2019, 08:57:54 AM
I was never in religion to not feel alone. I waa never happy as a theist. It was nonstop loneliness and terror and rigidity. I was a theist because I thought there was a god and that terrified me, and that's why I'm freaking out about a huge group of apparent miracles that I haven't seen anyone provide a solid refutation for
Bad theology. If you are a demon, and go to Hell, you will love it there, it is your natural home.
Hell is here and now, for those into it.
Quote from: SGOS on November 23, 2019, 09:39:01 AM
Been there. I was brain beaten as a child by a Baptist grandmother. Those Baptists know a thing or two about indoctrinating the young and the weak. You don't recover from that kind of brainwashing with a snap of the fingers, especially if you've been told you will rot in Hell if you don't buy the bullshit. It took me 30 years to rid myself of that 10 years of brainwashing. No, I redid the math. It took me 40 years.
So you really can, in full honestly , look at Lourdes and see no reason to believe ? It's possible that she hears the name immaculate heart before, it's possible her stories got carried away, it's possible the miracles are just a lump ofnlies, exaggerations , hysteria and coincidence ? And if so how do I do that man
Quote from: Syrimoon on November 23, 2019, 09:23:53 AM
O spent 25, so I understand. I don't know. Something on me keeps saying, you're in denial, you know the church is true bow, you're just refusing to go back...but couldn't that just be my anxiety and trauma telling me the absolute worst case scenario is gonna happen ?
Like I said, you need psychology help, not theology help. Hope your family dynamics don't make your condition worse, but it probably does (brother).
Quote from: Syrimoon on November 23, 2019, 09:26:57 AM
I have read that, indeed. I've read all i can.
It comes back to this am one really-
How do we explain things like a man regaining his sight or a woman's paralysis stopping?
We're they already feeling signs of healing and used the water for a minute of fame? But the blind man was a skeptic, he didn't believe, he claimed he was blond before and bot after, and his doctor examined him after
Shit like that
Partial blindness and partial paralysis are known psychosomatic conditions. Catharsis, spontaneous or induced, terminates the underlying hysteria.
Yeah, I think that some of the psychosomatic cures at Lourdes are real. By natural cause. Of course the Catholic belief of the patient going there ... is essential for inducing the catharsis (the numinous feeling). This happens at Pentecostal tent healings all the time, not just in France, not just with Catholics.
Quote from: Baruch on November 23, 2019, 10:25:29 AM
Partial blindness and partial paralysis are known psychosomatic conditions. Catharsis, spontaneous or induced, terminates the underlying hysteria.
Yeah, I think that some of the psychosomatic cures at Lourdes are real. By natural cause. Of course the Catholic belief of the patient going there ... is essential for inducing the catharsis (the numinous feeling). This happens at Pentecostal tent healings all the time, not just in France, not just with Catholics.
That makes sense. I also remember reading that their doctors were saying thingns like "it is medical fact that-" but thread 150 years ago.
Their most recent miracle was a nun paralyzed for 40 years regained movement as soon as she was in the water. Same thing ?
Quote from: SGOS on November 23, 2019, 09:50:08 AM
Well, there's medical science. There's the psychosomatic explanation. And there's the explanation that none of it actually happened. You could pick any one of those. Or you could wait for someone to offer proof that it really did happen. Or you could quit worrying about it, and get on with your life.
I'm trying.
I suppose those who were cured at Lourdes could have spots eously been cured anywhere. With millions of visitors each year, coincidences plus timing are bound to happen
Quote from: Baruch on November 23, 2019, 10:06:29 AM
Imagination. We all have it. Not saying the new name is bad. Of course Virgin Mary was originally Isis and Artemis of Ephesus. So she is used to being poly-valent. Typical woman.
No, she didn't make it up. It was canonized in Rome 4 years prior and her priest says there's no way she could know it, and that she had to keep saying this strange name Mary gave her all the way home to not forget it
Quote from: Syrimoon on November 23, 2019, 10:38:55 AM
I'm trying.
I suppose those who were cured at Lourdes could have spots eously been cured anywhere. With millions of visitors each year, coincidences plus timing are bound to happen
And you default to magic as another option for their cure. Awesome.
Quote from: Syrimoon on November 23, 2019, 09:26:57 AM
I have read that, indeed. I've read all i can.
It comes back to this am one really-
How do we explain things like a man regaining his sight or a woman's paralysis stopping?
We're they already feeling signs of healing and used the water for a minute of fame? But the blind man was a skeptic, he didn't believe, he claimed he was blond before and bot after, and his doctor examined him after
Shit like that
Why do you believe those stories? Could it be possible there are a few lies involved ? And why would a god trying to reach all of his creation be so obscure with his miracles? Simply, it does not add up--clearly there are a bunch of tall tales going on here--much like Paul Bunyan and his blue ox.
Quote from: Syrimoon on November 23, 2019, 10:22:16 AM
So you really can, in full honestly , look at Lourdes and see no reason to believe ? It's possible that she hears the name immaculate heart before, it's possible her stories got carried away, it's possible the miracles are just a lump ofnlies, exaggerations , hysteria and coincidence ? And if so how do I do that man
I see no reason to believe it. But the thing about belief is there is nothing in the definition that requires a belief to be true. It's just something you believe. You can believe in a false thing, and no one is going to take you out back and shoot you. I'll bet there are a thousand things outside your religion that you know nothing about. You don't waste time worrying about whether they are true or not. In other words, you just don't know. You lack a belief.
Religious dogma has a special status. It's unknowable. It cannot be proven true or false. This is fertile ground for people like you that feel like they have to believe one way or another. But belief has nothing to do with knowing anything. Yet you find yourself worrying about not believing the unknowable. All you can do is believe. That's the best you can do. And if you get it wrong, who cares? I don't.
Quote from: SGOS on November 23, 2019, 11:01:42 AM
I see no reason to believe it. But the thing about belief is there is nothing in the definition that requires a belief to be true. It's just something you believe. You can believe in a false thing, and no one is going to take you out back and shoot you. I'll bet there are a thousand things outside your religion that you know nothing about. You don't waste time worrying about whether they are true or not. In other words, you just don't know. You lack a belief.
Religious dogma has a special status. It's unknowable. It cannot be proven true or false. This is fertile ground for people like you that feel like they have to believe one way or another. But belief has nothing to do with knowing anything. Yet you find yourself worrying about not believing the unknowable. All you can do is believe. That's the best you can do. And if you get it wrong, who cares? I don't.
Well in most believe systems if you get it wrong you go to hell which is what I'm scared of at the root of all this. It dominoed. Ifourdes could be true, my brain said, that all of it is true, even the parts we know from history aren't true
Any you picked the religion that was ubiquitous in your region to believe is true. LOL
Quote from: Mike Cl on November 23, 2019, 10:57:54 AM
Why do you believe those stories? Could it be possible there are a few lies involved ? And why would a god trying to reach all of his creation be so obscure with his miracles? Simply, it does not add up--clearly there are a bunch of tall tales going on here--much like Paul Bunyan and his blue ox.
I feel like I have to believe because somehow in my brain one answer (god and miracles) adds up more logically than many (lies and coincidences and mistakes). I'm sure there's a logical fallacy there somewhere, I just...i dunno. I have ptsd, I haven't eaten in 36 hours. Nothing makes sense
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on November 23, 2019, 11:18:29 AM
Any you picked the religion that was ubiquitous in your region to believe is true. LOL
I know, I know. I promise I'm not trying to be a pain here. I've been agnostic for a long time, bordering on atheist, but Lourdes just has me shook and my years of Catholicism tell me it's because I know I should go home to the church
Quote from: Syrimoon on November 23, 2019, 11:20:04 AM
I know, I know. I promise I'm not trying to be a pain here. I've been agnostic for a long time, bordering on atheist, but Lourdes just has me shook and my years of Catholicism tell me it's because I know I should go home to the church
You let magic and hoodoo shake you? You should stay in religion, it doesn't require you to think.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on November 23, 2019, 11:36:18 AM
You let magic and hoodoo shake you? You should stay in religion, it doesn't require you to think.
I am thinking, I'm trying really hard to explain how someone can have documented wounds when they get in the water and immediately after have them documented as healing, recently , by doctors
Quote from: Syrimoon on November 23, 2019, 11:48:24 AM
I am thinking, I'm trying really hard to explain how someone can have documented wounds when they get in the water and immediately after have them documented as healing, recently , by doctors
Magic, of course. Go have fun with your idols.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on November 23, 2019, 12:05:23 PM
Magic, of course. Go have fun with your idols.
More like my next suicide attempt but ok
Quote from: Syrimoon on November 23, 2019, 11:18:46 AM
I feel like I have to believe because somehow in my brain one answer (god and miracles) adds up more logically than many (lies and coincidences and mistakes). I'm sure there's a logical fallacy there somewhere, I just...i dunno. I have ptsd, I haven't eaten in 36 hours. Nothing makes sense
Ptsd--and no food. Not healthy for body nor mind. Religion won't fix anything for you. But, an understanding and competent counselor would help--you need to find one. Your first priority should be to get you mind and body straight.
Quote from: Syrimoon on November 23, 2019, 11:20:04 AM
I know, I know. I promise I'm not trying to be a pain here. I've been agnostic for a long time, bordering on atheist, but Lourdes just has me shook and my years of Catholicism tell me it's because I know I should go home to the church
That's pretty much what it was intended to do. They want you, they'll get you any way they can. If it wasn't Lourdes, it would be something else that would be compelling you to stay with the Church.
Quote from: Catholic Encyclical X, 195
We [Catholics] are also under an obligation to keep secrets faithfully. And sometimes the easiest way to fulfill that duty is to say what is false, or to tell a lie.
According to Richard Sisson, on pages 55 and 56 in the second volume of "Answering Christianity's Most Puzzling Questions,"
QuotePeople do strange things when they are cornered by facts. When evidence cannot be denied, men who care nothing for the truth simply become illogical. Minds become willfully ignorant and emotions turn hostile.
It's not the miracle you believe in, it's the people who told you about the miracle. When you realize that people are not reliable you may realize that miracles are a dime a dozen - but none of them ever actually happened.
Quote from: Beausobre (theologian)
Christians not only do not say what they think, but they do say the direct contrary of what they think. Philosophers in their cabinets; out of them they are content with fables, though they well know they are fables. Nay, more: they deliver honest men to the executioner, for having uttered what they themselves know to be true. How many atheists and pagans have burned holy men under the pretext of heresy? Every day do hypocrites consecrate, and make people adore the host, though as well convinced as I am, that it is nothing but a bit of bread.
concern troll
In an argument (usually a political debate), a concern troll is someone who is on one side of the discussion, but pretends to be a supporter of the other side with "concerns". The idea behind this is that your opponents will take your arguments more seriously if they think you're an ally. Concern trolls who use fake identities are sometimes known as sockpuppets.
Quote from: Syrimoon on November 23, 2019, 11:15:39 AM
Well in most believe systems if you get it wrong you go to hell which is what I'm scared of at the root of all this. It dominoed. Ifourdes could be true, my brain said, that all of it is true, even the parts we know from history aren't true
I suspected that was at the core of all this. I experienced it too. I suspect than many of us who have left our religion have fought that battle. On the other hand, many in this forum who were former theists, just walked away without a backward look. Logically, that's the way it should happen. Once you realize there is no credible evidence to support irrational beliefs, you should be done with it.
But there's an emotional component, entirely fear in your case and mine. Suppose you're wrong, and God throws you into a fiery torment for eternity, that is assuming God is actually that much of a prick. He leaves no evidence behind, makes no public appearances, doesn't talk to you when you pray (unless you're delusional), and expects you to believe without knowing, or you go to Hell. Of all the things about miracles and Bible stories that tax our sense of reality to the limit, that concept of God may be the hardest thing to believe in of all. Why would a supposedly loving god commit such a barbarous act?
Years after I acknowledged my atheism, which was not an act of choice by the way, I finally got over the irrational fear. It passes when you come to terms with the fact that you don't believe in religious dogma that has no rational basis. It's not defiance. It's facing reality. You are who you are. Emotions serve no purpose after they are recognized as irrational, and even when you recognize religion for what it is, the emotional component can linger as it did for me. It depends on how well your parents indoctrinated you into their belief system. But like any bad habbit, fear dissipates when you stop practicing it.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on November 23, 2019, 02:17:39 PM
concern troll
In an argument (usually a political debate), a concern troll is someone who is on one side of the discussion, but pretends to be a supporter of the other side with "concerns". The idea behind this is that your opponents will take your arguments more seriously if they think you're an ally. Concern trolls who use fake identities are sometimes known as sockpuppets.
I am neither. I'm just lost, scared and confused
What are you scared of? Hell? I remember the day I realized for the first time that there is no such place. I was giddy with joy for days, maybe even weeks. No more fear of Hell! I didn't have to be concerned any more whether I believed in God the way he wanted me to. How can any Christian (or Muslim or Jew, for that matter) be certain that their religion is "the one, true religion"? There are, after all, many, many religions in the world, and they can't all be true. Just because a person, such as yourself, was born and raised to believe a particular religion, that doesn't automatically make it the right religion. Free yourself from your fear of hell and you'll be much happier, I expect.
Quote from: Unbeliever on November 23, 2019, 03:42:18 PM
What are you scared of? Hell? I remember the day I realized for the first time that there is no such place. I was giddy with joy for days, maybe even weeks. No more fear of Hell! I didn't have to be concerned any more whether I believed in God the way he wanted me to. How can any Christian (or Muslim or Jew, for that matter) be certain that their religion is "the one, true religion"? There are, after all, many, many religions in the world, and they can't all be true. Just because a person, such as yourself, was born and raised to believe a particular religion, that doesn't automatically make it the right religion. Free yourself from your fear of hell and you'll be much happier, I expect.
U had that for years actually. I was a pantheist who believed that all experienced of god or the supernatural were just branches from the same unknown thing, which still isn't exactly a skeptics or atheists view I know so I'm not holding it up here for approval, but it made sense to me for a long time. They believe that no religion has it all right, and treated each religion as people trying to find their understanding. There was no believe in hell or sometimes any afterlife at all.
And then after that I identified as a theist for quite a while till about 4 weeks ago when I started reading reports about miracles I couldn't explain
Maybe I need to go back to the roots and find some good scholarly information on the formation of Judaism and Christianity in the first place, how it evolved in the ancient world ?
Full of shit, you mean.
Quote from: Syrimoon on November 23, 2019, 03:59:47 PM
I was a pantheist who believed that all experienced of god or the supernatural were just branches from the same unknown thing, which still isn't exactly a skeptics or atheists view I know so I'm not holding it up here for approval, but it made sense to me for a long time.
I went through that too. I didn't call my self a pantheist. I just came to the conclusion that Christianity and all of its forms was just impossible, so I entertained the idea that there could be an unknowable god, one beyond the reach of human understanding that existed for some reason or another (unknowable of course), but probably did not interact in human affairs. But in the end, there is absolutely no more evidence to support such an entity than there is of the strictest interpretation of the Christian god. And with that realization, I had to admit that no religion I knew of could be supported by credible evidence either. I also took a course in comparative religion in college. All had much in common but not in every way, but what they all did have in common was that none were rational enough to deserve my attention.
Quote from: Syrimoon on November 23, 2019, 03:59:47 PM
U had that for years actually. I was a pantheist who believed that all experienced of god or the supernatural were just branches from the same unknown thing, which still isn't exactly a skeptics or atheists view I know so I'm not holding it up here for approval, but it made sense to me for a long time. They believe that no religion has it all right, and treated each religion as people trying to find their understanding. There was no believe in hell or sometimes any afterlife at all.
And then after that I identified as a theist for quite a while till about 4 weeks ago when I started reading reports about miracles I couldn't explain
Maybe I need to go back to the roots and find some good scholarly information on the formation of Judaism and Christianity in the first place, how it evolved in the ancient world ?
That's what I'd recommend, find out about the history of the RCC. Christianity started out as a whole variety of different versions of the religion, but someone decided that there should be, like Highlander, only one.
Here's a list of things concerning Christian History (http://nullgod.com/index.php/topic,52.0.html) that I've compiled.
There seems to me to be only one legitimate question one needs to answer: "Is there evidence to support a god?" If the answer is no, then all the man make constructs of religions, along with man made constructs of punishments for not believing in any of them are a meaningless waste of our short time on Earth.
Of course, good Christians see evidence of God in a rainbow. A rational person would just enjoy the rainbow, without assuming it directs us to the supernatural.
If Hell was an actual, real thing, why would God have waited thousands of years before telling anyone about it? How many were condemned to Hell without even knowing of it during their lives?
Sirimoon, it seems odd that you would recognize the irrationality of Catholicism, but get befuddled by Lourdes. the myth of Lourdes suffers from the same flaws of the entirety of Christianity. Why not focus on the shroud of Turin?
Quote from: SGOS on November 23, 2019, 04:47:11 PM
Sirimoon, it seems odd that you would recognize the irrationality of Catholicism, but get befuddled by Lourdes. the myth of Lourdes suffers from the same flaws of the entirety of Christianity. Why not focus on the shroud of Turin?
Because it's been soundly debunked as a forgery in a way i can understand but there's still parts of Lourdes I don't understand. I know that just because I don't understand it doesn't make it real but that's where I'm at
Yeah, that's a stupid position to hold, isn't it.
Quote from: Syrimoon on November 23, 2019, 04:57:29 PM
Because it's been soundly debunked as a forgery in a way i can understand but there's still parts of Lourdes I don't understand. I know that just because I don't understand it doesn't make it real but that's where I'm at
If you don't understand psychosomatic illness, then you can't understand anything "legitimate" from Lourdes. I would hope one doesn't need an MD or Psych degree to understand psychosomatic illness. Depends on what you mean by understanding.
Pantheism? I can partially justify that. Any POV can be partially justified, even atheism.
The human mind is an instrument like a Swiss Army knife. You have lots of tools you can use. Monism, Dualism, Pluralism (aka monotheism, millennialism, polytheism). Numbers were made for man, man wasn't made for numbers. So "zero" corresponds to atheism ;-) It took awhile for humans to realize that zero, and atheism were even possible.
So the idea that atheism (zero) or theism (one thru X) is the only legitimate number, is a bit maniacal. And egotistical. I have the one true number, all who agree with me are my disciples, anyone who disagrees are heretics (see Pythagoras). Supposedly Hippias, a later disciple of Pythagoras, discovered that the square root of two can never be the ratio between two integers. That is why those numbers are called "irrational". And the other followers of Pythagoras murdered him, to shut him up. So how rational are these arguments about how many gods there are? Pythagorean ... not elementary my dear Watson.
Quote from: Syrimoon on November 23, 2019, 10:37:37 AM
That makes sense. I also remember reading that their doctors were saying thingns like "it is medical fact that-" but thread 150 years ago.
Their most recent miracle was a nun paralyzed for 40 years regained movement as soon as she was in the water. Same thing ?
Yes. There isn't a lot of medical research one once-happened medical events. By definition. Medicine can only be scientific on controlled, repeatable events. Like a flu infection.
Quote from: Syrimoon on November 23, 2019, 10:38:55 AM
I'm trying.
I suppose those who were cured at Lourdes could have spots eously been cured anywhere. With millions of visitors each year, coincidences plus timing are bound to happen
But isn't that a reason to be happy, for someone's improvement, even if a doctor didn't get paid for it.
Quote from: Syrimoon on November 23, 2019, 11:18:46 AM
I feel like I have to believe because somehow in my brain one answer (god and miracles) adds up more logically than many (lies and coincidences and mistakes). I'm sure there's a logical fallacy there somewhere, I just...i dunno. I have ptsd, I haven't eaten in 36 hours. Nothing makes sense
Buddhism is simpler. One sage said, it can be reduced to .... when hungry eat, when tired sleep.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on November 23, 2019, 12:05:23 PM
Magic, of course. Go have fun with your idols.
I like my idols. Beautiful women for example. If I go to Hell, then I get all the beautiful women ;-) Their vanity will keep them out of Heaven.
I guess even demi-gods use a bit of wishful thinking from time to time. LOL
Quote from: Syrimoon on November 23, 2019, 03:30:37 PM
I am neither. I'm just lost, scared and confused
If you want it, here you can be found, stop being scared, get your ideas straight.
Quote from: Syrimoon on November 23, 2019, 04:57:29 PM
Because it's been soundly debunked as a forgery in a way i can understand but there's still parts of Lourdes I don't understand. I know that just because I don't understand it doesn't make it real but that's where I'm at
So you expect for example to understand St Joan of Arc? I am a big fan of hers. Like any man, she being a women, I don't expect to understand her. But I can still admire her. And I don't have to think she was anything other than a crypto-pagan from the Celtic universe (Morrigan).
Quote from: Unbeliever on November 23, 2019, 06:24:08 PM
I guess even demi-gods use a bit of wishful thinking from time to time. LOL
They are demi-goddesses. You go to Heaven (Jesus of SF) ... boring harp playing and being celibate.
Thabks everyone for your continued inpute
I did read through a case today of a doctor in therapy 1900s who saw a miracle at Lourdes and then converted to Christianity. He wrote about what he saw, but-
She was an immensely stressed woman sick for most of her life and could have been mis diagnosed
She was a firm believer and if she had a psychosomatic illness or could account for her symptoms decreasing in the hours aft r as she relaxes
He talks of a tumor on her back that shrunk wit in hours but how do they know it was a tumor and not a fluid pocket or intestinal
Why assume straight out the bat that god is somehow involved?
Quote from: Sal1981 on November 23, 2019, 09:27:43 PM
Why assume straight out the bat that god is somehow involved?
Mostly fear of the unknown I think. I'm really good at playing out worst case scenarios
Quote from: Syrimoon on November 23, 2019, 09:35:19 PM
Mostly fear of the unknown I think. I'm really good at playing out worst case scenarios
The human propensity to insert answers where there is none is a flaw, yes. A flaw that I have in check, for the most part.
Quote from: Sal1981 on November 23, 2019, 09:53:13 PM
The human propensity to insert answers where there is none is a flaw, yes. A flaw that I have in check, for the most part.
Its definatelt hard, especially with thibgs that .maybe done have a solid explanation all the time like "miraxle" healing
Put it this way, do you know of any hospitals that use "miracle" healing? Ever wonder why?
Quote from: Syrimoon on November 23, 2019, 09:35:19 PM
Mostly fear of the unknown I think. I'm really good at playing out worst case scenarios
I know it is past Halloween, but shall I send my ghost cats to help you overcome fear? (sarc)
The worst case scenario isn't Hell, it is ruining what life you have, living in unnecessary fear.
Quote from: Sal1981 on November 23, 2019, 09:53:13 PM
The human propensity to insert answers where there is none is a flaw, yes. A flaw that I have in check, for the most part.
If you are in relationship, then you are in check-mate ;-) The Queen is the most powerful piece.
Quote from: Syrimoon on November 23, 2019, 11:30:28 PM
Its definatelt hard, especially with thibgs that .maybe done have a solid explanation all the time like "miraxle" healing
Miracle healing, good. Shroud of Turin, bad. But I can equally argue that the Shroud of Turin has never been adequately debunked, while miracle healing was exposed as a fraud back in the 1950s. Many believers still hold the Shroud in deep respect. And everyone knows forensic science is bunk.
QuoteIn 1956, the healing revival reached its peak number of evangelists holding campaigns, as 49 separate evangelists held major meetings.[9] By 1960 the number of evangelists holding national campaigns dropped to less than a dozen.[9] Several perspectives have been offered regarding the decline of the healing revival. Crowder suggests that Branham's gradual separation from Gordon Lindsay played a major part in the decline.[10] Harrell attributed the decline to the increasing number of evangelists crowding the field and straining the financial resources of the Pentecostal denominations.[11] Weaver similarly agreed that Pentecostal churches gradually withdrew their support of the healing revivals primarily over the financial stresses put on local churches by the healing campaigns.[12] The Assemblies of God led the way, being the first to openly withdraw from the healing revival in 1953.[12] Weaver pointed to other factors which may have played a role in destroying the initial ecumenism of the revival: tension between the independent evangelists and the Pentecostal churches caused by the evangelists' fund-raising methods; denominational pride; sensationalism; and doctrinal conflicts, particularly between the Oneness and Trinitarian factions within Pentecostalism.[12]
These points may be arguable, but I have one thing in my favor that seals the deal. I want to believe in the Shroud.
Quote from: SGOS on November 24, 2019, 07:38:20 AM
Miracle healing, good. Shroud of Turin, bad. But I can equally argue that the Shroud of Turin has never been adequately debunked, while miracle healing was exposed as a fraud back in the 1950s. Many believers still hold the Shroud in deep respect. And everyone knows forensic science is bunk.
These points may be arguable, but I have one thing in my favor that seals the deal. I want to believe in the Shroud.
Geometic analysis of faces, facial recognition. It has been shown that the face in the Shroud, has the exact same proportions as that of a self portrait of Leonardo. Why? Because per Highlander, Leonardo was ... Jesus.
Quote from: SGOS on November 24, 2019, 07:38:20 AM
Miracle healing, good. Shroud of Turin, bad. But I can equally argue that the Shroud of Turin has never been adequately debunked, while miracle healing was exposed as a fraud back in the 1950s. Many believers still hold the Shroud in deep respect. And everyone knows forensic science is bunk.
These points may be arguable, but I have one thing in my favor that seals the deal. I want to believe in the Shroud.
I definately don't believe in like, laying of hands at tent revivals and such, I know all the calendar goes on there and I can find plenty about it online. What I can't find is how to explain a 4 year old girl who was known to be dead suddenly able to hear as soon as her parents held a saints medal to it, a case canonized as authentic by the church with hundreds of pages from medical doctors, not all of whom are Catholic. Spontaneous healing sure but right at that moment??
Quote from: Syrimoon on November 24, 2019, 08:38:31 AM
I definately don't believe in like, laying of hands at tent revivals and such,
Lourdes is packaged in a somewhat less vulgar way, but it's still the same thing, appealing to the same kind of people. And the Church loves it, because they need miracles to preserve the doctrine. It would be a shame if they actually found something in the water that healed every sort of condition. Did you know the holy water in that little fountain in the church foyer comes out of a tap?
Quote from: Sal1981 on November 23, 2019, 09:27:43 PM
Why assume straight out the bat that god is somehow involved?
Because that's what he's trying to prove, that HIS god exists.
Quote from: SGOS on November 24, 2019, 07:38:20 AM
Miracle healing, good. Shroud of Turin, bad. But I can equally argue that the Shroud of Turin has never been adequately debunked, while miracle healing was exposed as a fraud back in the 1950s. Many believers still hold the Shroud in deep respect. And everyone knows forensic science is bunk.
These points may be arguable, but I have one thing in my favor that seals the deal. I want to believe in the Shroud.
There's a very readable book called
The Second Messiah: Templars, The Turin Shroud, and the Great Secret of Freemasonry by Christopher Knight. It's all about the final days of the Templars and what happened to Jacques de Molay. According to the author, that's who was wrapped in the shroud, not Jesus. He shows, at the end of the book, how the image happened, but I'm not enough of scientist to know how good the explanation was.
Just in case you missed the sarcasm, I never thought the original Shroud was wrapped around Jesus. I remember looking at the picture, and thinking that sure looks like a person but beyond that, I never understood why they claimed it was Jesus. What a silly claim.
The shroud "image" bears no relation to what it would look like if actually wrapped around some dead jew's head.
Quote from: Syrimoon on November 24, 2019, 08:38:31 AMWhat I can't find is how to explain a 4 year old girl who was known to be dead suddenly able to hear as soon as her parents held a saints medal to it, a case canonized as authentic by the church with hundreds of pages from medical doctors, not all of whom are Catholic. Spontaneous healing sure but right at that moment??
Post hoc attribution, not a super compelling argument right there. And yes, if it's possible for someone to heal up from something naturally, that can happen at any time, even when someone's shouting alakazam in their face.
Ever hear of an amputee who went to Lourdes and came back tap dancing? Me neither.
Belief in miracles is odd, including healing miracles. Supposedly god plans for bad stuff to happen to people, and then, for about 0.01% of those who want it to be undone, he obliges, the rest are still fucked. Weird grand plan, if you ask me. But then hey, I'm not all-knowing.
What I do know, however, is that believing in healing miracles doesn't help people. So I don't like people feeding into this myth. 'but it gives hope' some fools argue. No, it shifts focus from reality, which, harsh as it might be, must be dealt with.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on November 22, 2019, 07:01:28 PM
Bullshit, you're a believer and a concern troll. You couldn't be more obvious.
I've been trying to give him the benefit of the doubt, but I think you are right. I don't believe he's genuine.
Quote from: SGOS on November 25, 2019, 01:24:13 AM
I've been trying to give him the benefit of the doubt, but I think you are right. I don't believe he's genuine.
I understand how it doesnt seem legit but I wish you could be here in my head for a few minutes to understand I'm not trying to convert anyone but myself.
The last fucking thing. I'm this world. That I want right now. Is to be in this position where i feel like the foubdarion of my world is giving out from under me. I dont want this, at all, period, but I don't know how to tell my brain to shut up
You seem to be here looking for guidance, but you keep justifying miracle healing to people who expect evidence, while you remain blind to the fallacies you use to protect the fantasy. It seems more like you want us to believe it. You have a legal right to believe anything you want. If you can't stop believing in stupid stuff, just go ahead and believe it without the guilt. So you get it wrong; What are you out? What are we out? I for one don't care. I'm not your mentor.
Quote from: Syrimoon on November 25, 2019, 03:33:24 AM
I understand how it doesnt seem legit but I wish you could be here in my head for a few minutes to understand I'm not trying to convert anyone but myself.
The last fucking thing. I'm this world. That I want right now. Is to be in this position where i feel like the foubdarion of my world is giving out from under me. I dont want this, at all, period, but I don't know how to tell my brain to shut up
Well, you're screwed if you don't man up.
I didn't lose my faith all at once, it took a lot of study and thought to finally jettison my dependence on mythology, and to realize that it was just that - mythology. Now I know that Jesus almost certainly never existed, and God is just a figment of imagination. I have no fear of hell, or God's wrath, so now all I have to fear are the followers of an archaic story that was made up to control people.
Quote from: Unbeliever on November 25, 2019, 01:50:54 PM
I didn't lose my faith all at once, it took a lot of study and thought to finally jettison my dependence on mythology, and to realize that it was just that - mythology. Now I know that Jesus almost certainly never existed, and God is just a figment of imagination. I have no fear of hell, or God's wrath, so now all I have to fear are the followers of an archaic story that was made up to control people.
Just like every ex-smoker ;-) Since I wasn't raised in religion, I didn't have to reject it as part of separating my identity from my parents. But I can vicariously have sympathy for those who do.
O-boy he is back. Just another angle to get to after death and NDE and blah the fuck blah.....play with it for awhile. I’ll take the trash out when I get back to my “big boardâ€.
It's easy to find sympathy. Just look between shit and syphilis in the dictionary.
Have a totally uninvolved third party, preferably someone who is not religious in any way, repeat the process under controlled conditions. Bonus points if it can be done in a different part of the world as well. This is the only way to scientifically determine the validity of the claim.
I am not prepared to accept a single instance of a miracle like this when similar such "miracles" are faked all the damn time.