So I'm in what could be called a vague debate with my (still Catholic) brother who is trying to get me back to the church and, being Catholic, he's on about Mary. Specifically right now, the dancing sun at Fatima. I gave him my general thoughts on it about weather phenomena and mass hysteria and plain old lying, but he brought up that people as far away as 18km saw the miracle which I hadn't heard before. I find little about it online but there are some reports of it. What do you think those more remote people saw? Was the strange weather far reaching enough to be seen that far away? Were distant towns aware of the supposed miracle to happen that day and also staring up at the sun, blinding themselves? Lying to feel included ?
I haven't heard a thing about this, but I can see your brother reporting this phenomenon as new proof too convincing to be ignored. There must be a god. Right? Now I don't want to seem disinterested, because it's certainly something that jarred me enough to respond. At the same time, I am kind of disinterested, enough so as to not bother googling it.
How could I ignore something so startlingly extraordinary? I'll tell you why. It's because the Catholics, and even more so, the fundamentalists have brought this kind of nonsense into the public awareness so often that it is nothing short of boring; "Here we go again!" Yet the world fumbles on in a reality that exists as if there were no god, no one answers my prayers, which of course I no longer bother with, and my needs and desires are granted in the same pattern they were when I believed. Things seem to happen because I make them happen or just happen in random and unpredictable ways that mimic chance.
And then a random atmospheric anomaly occurs, or even worse, is only said to occur, and everyone starts praising the Lord, "It's a sign. Another sign. Behold an rejoice."
I just roll my eyes, and then get on with my getting on. It does not help my sanity to join the insane. I just observe it and move on.
Hmm. An atmospheric phenomenon, like a Harvest Moon, can be seen over a wide area. And is a natural phenomena of course. So is the rarer Green Flash:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRSinXOY5D4&list=PLXmfFXVU-TGZhxFse3cYKuNYX9UZyM0O_&index=2&t=0s
Marianism is a continuation of the worship of Isis in Egypt and Magna Mater in Asia Minor.
My older brother is a serious Catholic, so you have my sympathy.
Why doesn't something like a total eclipse, a rarer and even more exciting visual phenomenon than some fucking sunset cause this kind of excitement with the Catholic Church's Miracle Investigation Committee? It did among the ancients, and let me tell you, those ancients had a leg up our own modern day spiritualists at making a commotion over spiritual interpretations of the normal or even the just plain imagined.
Quote from: Baruch on November 17, 2019, 08:39:38 AM
Hmm. An atmospheric phenomenon, like a Harvest Moon, can be seen over a wide area. And is a natural phenomena of course. So is the rarer Green Flash:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRSinXOY5D4&list=PLXmfFXVU-TGZhxFse3cYKuNYX9UZyM0O_&index=2&t=0s
Marianism is a continuation of the worship of Isis in Egypt and Magna Mater in Asia Minor.
My older brother is a serious Catholic, so you have my sympathy.
Yeah, stuff like this is ehatbalways struck me as the most logical explanation, it's always my go to.
Though I do wonder, and I'm no meteorologist or anything, but i do wonder; some at Fatima saw nothing at all. I wonder why that is, if the dancing sun was a sundog or something similar?
Not 'The Miracle of the Sun' again...
There is so much wrong with this story, it's hard to know where to start.
Quotepeople as far away as 18km saw the miracle
So, an atmospheric condition in the geographic area is visible 11 miles away is evidence it was indeed a miracle? Or, is it much more likely they all saw this:
(https://kstp.com/kstpImages/repository/2019-02/mike-web.jpg)
Then there is this:
"Most of what's popularly reported about the sun incident, such as the colors and the spinning, comes from Father John de Marchi, a Catholic priest who spent years interviewing eyewitnesses to build evidence supporting the miraculous event. But more objective assessments of the eyewitness accounts have found very little evidence of a single shared experience. Author Kevin McClure, who also compiled eyewitness accounts, reported that he had "never seen such a collection of contradictory accounts in any of the research I have done in the past 10 years." If you were there, as a devout Catholic (otherwise you wouldn't be there), you fully believed in a miracle happening that day (otherwise you wouldn't be there), whether you personally saw anything or not you'd support the majority opinion, and probably go to your grave insisting that a miracle happened there. There's no surprise that Father de Marchi was able to form a consensus description of a spinning color wheel of a sun, and no need for any actual event to justify his consensus."
Quote from: Simon Moon on November 18, 2019, 11:08:18 AM
Not 'The Miracle of the Sun' again...
There is so much wrong with this story, it's hard to know where to start.
So, an atmospheric condition in the geographic area is visible 11 miles away is evidence it was indeed a miracle? Or, is it much more likely they all saw this:
(https://kstp.com/kstpImages/repository/2019-02/mike-web.jpg)
Then there is this:
"Most of what's popularly reported about the sun incident, such as the colors and the spinning, comes from Father John de Marchi, a Catholic priest who spent years interviewing eyewitnesses to build evidence supporting the miraculous event. But more objective assessments of the eyewitness accounts have found very little evidence of a single shared experience. Author Kevin McClure, who also compiled eyewitness accounts, reported that he had "never seen such a collection of contradictory accounts in any of the research I have done in the past 10 years." If you were there, as a devout Catholic (otherwise you wouldn't be there), you fully believed in a miracle happening that day (otherwise you wouldn't be there), whether you personally saw anything or not you'd support the majority opinion, and probably go to your grave insisting that a miracle happened there. There's no surprise that Father de Marchi was able to form a consensus description of a spinning color wheel of a sun, and no need for any actual event to justify his consensus."
Yeah I know it's something everyone's probably sick of, sorry! I'm still cutting my teeth as a skeptic, coming away from heavy Catholic indoctrination, so I appreciate your patience and willingness to answer!
I definately agree that a weather occurrence plus staring at the damn sun is the best answer, I just didn't have any info on how far away those things could be seen. I am still curious though about the entire occurrence. It's fascinating to me, honestly. Like, there were still some there who didn't see anything at all at Fatima, but if there were a sundog or halo, wouldn't everyone have seen it?
Quote from: Syrimoon on November 18, 2019, 12:00:47 PM
Yeah I know it's something everyone's probably sick of, sorry! I'm still cutting my teeth as a skeptic, coming away from heavy Catholic indoctrination, so I appreciate your patience and willingness to answer!
I definately agree that a weather occurrence plus staring at the damn sun is the best answer, I just didn't have any info on how far away those things could be seen. I am still curious though about the entire occurrence. It's fascinating to me, honestly. Like, there were still some there who didn't see anything at all at Fatima, but if there were a sundog or halo, wouldn't everyone have seen it?
Not necessarily, I miss maybe 99% of all sunsets, right in my back yard.
And don't worry about boring us with your "newbie" observations. I was once a confirmed Lutheran, and many years after the epiphany that converted me to atheism, I become more amazed at religious folly every day.
The question I have for Catholics is how they interpret Matthew 23:9:
QuoteAnd call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
Given this verse, why do they called their priests "Father" and why to they call their head guy "pope' which also means "Father"? How do you or your brother reconcile this?
Quote from: SGOS on November 18, 2019, 01:00:55 PM
Not necessarily, I miss maybe 99% of all sunsets, right in my back yard.
And don't worry about boring us with your "newbie" observations. I was once a confirmed Lutheran, and many years after the epiphany that converted me to atheism, I become more amazed at religious folly every day.
I appreciate the welcoming attitude, thanks! I know a lot ofnus come from religious backgrounds and are all in different stages. I would say in about 90% along but I still have th ibgs I don't know how to express yet, and I don't always know how to answer religious apologetics
That is true, I don't always notice the surroubsingns either, but I mean more of, the people actually gathered there and activly looking. But even then, I suppose, if one were peering through the maid fingers at only the sun they woulsn t see a halo. If someone had poor vision or poor ability to focus, someone too blinded the sun to look more than a few seconds, maybe even those familiar with the funny way the sun can look at times not thinking anything of it? After all there were reports of similar solar shows reported in the weeks leading up to it. Any of these could account for those who saw nothing, do you think?
Quote from: Unbeliever on November 18, 2019, 01:14:56 PM
The question I have for Catholics is how they interpret Matthew 23:9:
Given this verse, why do they called their priests "Father" and why to they call their head guy "pope' which also means "Father"? How do you or your brother reconcile this?
I believe they claim that they do not follow 'sol scriptura'.
So, basically they are free to accept or reject Bible passages, ad hoc.
Superstition has always been very popular, especially among the poorly educated. And way back when, everyone was poorly educated.
Quote from: Simon Moon on November 18, 2019, 01:28:23 PM
I believe they claim that they do not follow 'sol scriptura'.
So, basically they are free to accept or reject Bible passages, ad hoc.
That's a nice way to treat "the Word of God"! LOL
Quote from: Unbeliever on November 18, 2019, 01:30:51 PM
That's a nice way to treat "the Word of God"! LOL
Protestants would deny they do not follow the word of God, but Catholics canonize denial. It's a strange world.
Yeah Catholics can look more towards the priesthood for their guidance than the bible and it's hypocritical as hell. The stereotype of Catholics not reading their bible is totally true
Reading the Bible has made more atheists than any other activity. As Asimov pointed out, “Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived.â€
Reading it didn't automatically make me an atheist, but it sure did make me a non-Christian.
Thanks for all your replies!
So I am still compiling what I want to say back to my brother on his latest email (might bring up some of the bible and Catholic shit because I know he doesn't read his, he gets his theology from Catholic Answers forum) but I would like some feedback on my theory above before I end up sounding like a dumb ass to hin, regarding why some looking for the supposed dancing sun didn't notice the probable weather phenomena. Like If someone was looking through their fingers at only a very fixed point. If someone had poor vision or poor ability to focus, someone too blinded the sun to look more than a few seconds, maybe even those familiar with the funny way the sun can look at times not thinking anything of it? After all there were reports of similar solar shows reported in the weeks leading up to it. Any of these could account for those who saw nothing, do you think? I just know that people who respond to debubkers often bring up that point, that if there was any weather pattern to be seen, everyone should have seen it, but as someone with a visual disorder myself I feel like it is logical to say that out of 70,000 people over a large area, some people would simply be in a position to not see what was going on.
Suppose it was an actual miracle? What would it's purpose be? A message from God saying, "I am here." ?? Last time I remember one of these, it was weeping trees, later explained by a botanist. Maybe God is just getting old. Where are the parting seas? The talking bushes? The apocalyptic floods? If you think maybe he's just getting tired and petering out, wait until dementia sets in. Then you're going to see some really dopey shit.
That reminds me of a very entertaining book I read a while back, called "Towing Jehovah" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Towing_Jehovah
QuoteGod is dead, and now God's two-mile-long cadaver is floating in the Atlantic Ocean, just off the coast of Africa. As a result, the archangel Raphael hires supertanker captain Anthony Van Horne to tow the cadaver into the Arctic, with the intention of having it be preserved by the cold.
Technically speaking Fatima is supposedly a miracle from Mary, cause you know. Catholics. But yes it is telling that we don't really have the biblical miracles that people want to claim happened in ye olden days.
((And I know it's kinda dumb but I would be super appreciative of some insight from others if my logic above is sound. My brother, Catholicism aside, is usually a very well spoken guy and I'm kinda anxious about sounding stupid with my own theories? I know it's unlikely that anything i say will be able to get him to see something more physically, but I wanna give it a good college try ))
Quote from: Syrimoon on November 18, 2019, 02:57:21 PM
Yeah Catholics can look more towards the priesthood for their guidance than the bible and it's hypocritical as hell. The stereotype of Catholics not reading their bible is totally true
I hear from witnesses, that the Macedonian Orthodox Church is just like that. They were shocked anyone wanted their own copy of the Bible in Macedonian (outside of pew Bibles). I knew a Greek Orthodox Priest who had to leave that church because he wouldn't be allowed to deviate from the liturgical Bible selections into other parts of the Bible.
@Baruch That doesn't surprise me at all friend. I know orthodox and Catholic churches have a lot of overlap and I can totally see that happening back in my old church. We had a foreign priest from a central African country, and he was very loving and forward thinking...he didn't last long.
Sent my reply to my brother, and I think i made some pretty sound arguments like I said I'm not counting on changing his mind I'm just trying to cut my discussion teeth!
Quotehe's on about Mary.
Does he know that the Mary shit was not officially sanctioned until the Council of Ephesos in the mid 5th century?
Just more catholic bullshit like all the rest of it.
Quote from: Minimalist on November 19, 2019, 11:06:38 AM
Does he know that the Mary shit was not officially sanctioned until the Council of Ephesos in the mid 5th century?
Just more catholic bullshit like all the rest of it.
Shit man probably not, I didn't even know that
Quote from: Syrimoon on November 19, 2019, 11:27:55 AM
Shit man probably not, I didn't even know that
The history of the Church, inside and outside the Roman Empire, after 325 CE was largely driven by politics ... in Constantinople, and Ethiopia, Armenia and Persia. At that point, the NT Church(s) were a dead letter. The theocratic revolutions in those empires/kingdoms were massive. In Persia, the rise of nationalist Zoroastrianism preceded imperial Christianity by 100 years, and was a prototype for the others. Think of the Iranian revolution, but the ayatollahs subservient to the Shah.
Western monasticism was an attempt to continue the pre-Constantinian church by other means.
Quote from: Baruch on November 19, 2019, 11:48:02 AM
The history of the Church, inside and outside the Roman Empire, after 325 CE was largely driven by politics ... in Constantinople, and Ethiopia, Armenia and Persia. At that point, the NT Church(s) were a dead letter. The theocratic revolutions in those empires/kingdoms were massive. In Persia, the rise of nationalist Zoroastrianism preceded imperial Christianity by 100 years, and was a prototype for the others. Think of the Iranian revolution, but the ayatollahs subservient to the Shah.
Western monasticism was an attempt to continue the pre-Constantinian church by other means.
You know the thing with this sort of history is that I had heard bits and pieces of it but it was always as a Catholic and it was always filtered through to me as being false history and disproven. Even today as a non Catholic by initial instinct when hearing thus sort of thing is that it's false, and it's actually been quite a step to be able to take this sort of early church history as what it is: actual history. Do you have any good, solid resources for a starter ?
Quote from: Syrimoon on November 19, 2019, 11:27:55 AM
Shit man probably not, I didn't even know that
You might consider studying secular histories of the RCC. You may be very surprised just how badly it's acted over the last 2 millennia.
You might find some things of interest here, at God Not Found:
http://www.nullgod.com
I've spent several years archiving much of the web, for people who want to do research on various things.
Quote from: Unbeliever on November 19, 2019, 01:12:56 PM
You might consider studying secular histories of the RCC. You may be very surprised just how badly it's acted over the last 2 millennia.
You might find some things of interest here, at God Not Found:
http://www.nullgod.com
I've spent several years archiving much of the web, for people who want to do research on various things.
This is an amazing recourse, thank you ! I immediately found one of my favorite topics, polytheism in ancient judaeism
Quote from: Syrimoon on November 19, 2019, 12:11:01 PM
You know the thing with this sort of history is that I had heard bits and pieces of it but it was always as a Catholic and it was always filtered through to me as being false history and disproven. Even today as a non Catholic by initial instinct when hearing thus sort of thing is that it's false, and it's actually been quite a step to be able to take this sort of early church history as what it is: actual history. Do you have any good, solid resources for a starter ?
When Jesus Became God by Richard Rubenstein. Covers the politics of the 4th century CE and how that decided the future of Christianity. This is a very easy read for laymen. The textbooks for seminarians are biased. Eusebius of Caesarea, who knew Constantine, and wrote the first official Church History ... of course didn't know what would come from this event. He thought that Constantine would bring about a utopian end of history. There is a YouTube interview with Mr Rubenstein if you want the quick audio version.
At the end of the video ... he mentions how the court of Heaven matches the court on Earth. The Pope and other patriarchs were employees of the Roman Emperor at this point. Trinitarianism is a reflection of Roman court politics on Earth. The high clerical robes and crowns of the clergy, are taken directly from late Roman court official uniforms.
Quote from: Syrimoon on November 19, 2019, 12:11:01 PM
You know the thing with this sort of history is that I had heard bits and pieces of it but it was always as a Catholic and it was always filtered through to me as being false history and disproven. Even today as a non Catholic by initial instinct when hearing thus sort of thing is that it's false, and it's actually been quite a step to be able to take this sort of early church history as what it is: actual history. Do you have any good, solid resources for a starter ?
One suggestion is to start your research with Google. Start with Catholic History and then read the selections you get--and bookmark those that interest you. Then Google something like Skeptic catholic history--and so on. Pretty soon you will end up with a bunch of bookmarked sites and you can then return to them at will.
The comparison of what the church says is history and what secularists say is history is a good place to start, thanks! I could also find some links to share around !
I have another question for you guys; bro wrote me back and didn't really say too much about my points butter more arguments and I'll say this he brings up shit I don't know the answer to yet. He says at Fatima, people claimed their rain soaked clothes wete suddenly perfectly dry, and so was the ground. Any thoughts on this ?
Quote from: Syrimoon on November 19, 2019, 09:25:47 PM
The comparison of what the church says is history and what secularists say is history is a good place to start, thanks! I could also find some links to share around !
I have another question for you guys; bro wrote me back and didn't really say too much about my points butter more arguments and I'll say this he brings up shit I don't know the answer to yet. He says at Fatima, people claimed their rain soaked clothes wete suddenly perfectly dry, and so was the ground. Any thoughts on this ?
I have experienced light rain on a dry sunny day ... and the rain dries very quickly.
How about my Jewish friend, at the Western Wall ... a downpour suddenly happens, just when he makes a minyan/quorum of those praying, and the downpour comes from a sunny sky? Happened about 10 years ago. Synchronicity? Rain hit by crosswind to fall near but not under a rain cloud?
Gathering a quantity of Internet/YouTubes that are mutually contradictory? How to sort them out, except by prior bias? Or you have a few years on your hands.
How Jesus Became God by Bart Ehrman ... is another good read. He has a couple hour long lectures on YouTube on this content.
How do you debate an idiot? I don't think you can.
The bigger question is why would you want to?
Quote from: SGOS on November 20, 2019, 08:24:55 AM
The bigger question is why would you want to?
I honestly don't, muc h, but the dynamic in my family is sticky at best, a d engaging keeps him from throwing fits which keeps everyone else calmer. It's honestly a toxic shit show, idk. I'm trying to get something out of it by sharpening up my reasoning skills at least
Quote from: Syrimoon on November 20, 2019, 11:52:01 AM
I honestly don't, muc h, but the dynamic in my family is sticky at best, a d engaging keeps him from throwing fits which keeps everyone else calmer. It's honestly a toxic shit show, idk. I'm trying to get something out of it by sharpening up my reasoning skills at least
Good for you. I just googled 'Fatima skeptic' and several pages of sites came up. Google and bookmark--and have fun. You will find tons of ammo to shoot at your brother.
Ok y'all. Usually when I don't understand something religious or can't explain something religious there's at least arguments that look decent on the outside butt
I don't understand how anyone takes the secrets of Fatima seriously? I was down a rabbit hole reading people's theories and I always thought the secrets were at least, you know, prophesies. How can they take them seriously when they weren't even written down until years after the events they supposedly predicted?
Am I missing something here? They're so vague i...i expected more.
Quote from: Syrimoon on November 21, 2019, 08:51:18 AM
Ok y'all. Usually when I don't understand something religious or can't explain something religious there's at least arguments that look decent on the outside butt
I don't understand how anyone takes the secrets of Fatima seriously? I was down a rabbit hole reading people's theories and I always thought the secrets were at least, you know, prophesies. How can they take them seriously when they weren't even written down until years after the events they supposedly predicted?
Am I missing something here? They're so vague i...i expected more.
You're just approaching the thing logically. The only thing you are missing is the supposed bliss that comes with ignorance, but that bliss is false too. Sure it feels good to believe you have found the absolute truths offered by religion. I believe there are absolute truths, but no human is capable of knowing anything absolutely. The cornerstone of science is admitting there are no absolutes. Only religion offers them, with nary a theologian has done one minute of field work. The absolutes are just manufactured and presented in dogma (Fatima).
The idea of field work in the Catholic Miracle Committee is to go out and cherry pick a bunch of testimony from eye witnesses, and then claim it's a miracle. They don't test the idea. They simply think it, and then it's "Holy mama, praise Jesus."
Quote from: SGOS on November 21, 2019, 09:14:58 AM
You're just approaching the thing logically. The only thing you are missing is the supposed bliss that comes with ignorance, but that bliss is false too. Sure it feels good to believe you have found the absolute truths offered by religion. I believe there are absolute truths, but no human is capable of knowing anything absolutely. The cornerstone of science is admitting there are no absolutes. Only religion offers them, with nary a theologian has done one minute of field work. The absolutes are just manufactured and presented in dogma (Fatima).
The idea of field work in the Catholic Miracle Committee is to go out and cherry pick a bunch of testimony from eye witnesses, and then claim it's a miracle. They don't test the idea. They simply think it, and then it's "Holy mama, praise Jesus."
You know even as a devout Catholic I was always suspicious of any miracle. I believed in them in the abstract but when presented with one I was always like, ok Yes but
(Maybe I'm just good at being contrary though because if my mental health isn't good at the time I look at skeptics debunking and say yes but)
I'm jist...im looking at these arguments and it's a mess. People talk a lot about the fact that she said a great war would break out under pius xi, but ww2 started officially in Europe 9 months after pius died. So Obama you what's most likely,
She for the date wrong in retrospect, writing it years after ww2 started
She had a different contemporary idea of tensions brewing through the 30s
She learned at some point that the war started earlier in Asia
Ghost mom told her
I mean. I have an obsessive compulsive mental illness and anxiety, I'm bot the most educated person, k don't know what Lucias life was like when she was cloistered but I've heard her memory wasn't great and I mean. It just. Makes more sense that she lied about having a vision years ago and for a date wrong
Quote from: Syrimoon on November 21, 2019, 08:51:18 AM
Ok y'all. Usually when I don't understand something religious or can't explain something religious there's at least arguments that look decent on the outside butt
I don't understand how anyone takes the secrets of Fatima seriously? I was down a rabbit hole reading people's theories and I always thought the secrets were at least, you know, prophesies. How can they take them seriously when they weren't even written down until years after the events they supposedly predicted?
Am I missing something here? They're so vague i...i expected more.
Understand that all religions requires one to not think, but believe. Belief does not require thinking nor facts. Belief, buffed out, is called faith. And the deeper the ignorance one proclaims, the better for blind faith is supposed to be the hallmark of the best religious people. So, religion by it's very nature, discourage people to think or to search for facts; simply accept what the religious leaders tell you and don't think about it. You are not missing anything but simply seeing the religious for what they are; the willfully ignorant and they regard that ignorance as a badge of honor.
Quote from: Mike Cl on November 21, 2019, 10:45:57 AM
Understand that all religions requires one to not think, but believe. Belief does not require thinking nor facts. Belief, buffed out, is called faith. And the deeper the ignorance one proclaims, the better for blind faith is supposed to be the hallmark of the best religious people. So, religion by it's very nature, discourage people to think or to search for facts; simply accept what the religious leaders tell you and don't think about it. You are not missing anything but simply seeing the religious for what they are; the willfully ignorant and they regard that ignorance as a badge of honor.
You're absolutely right, it just. Damn. Growing up Catholic we wore our knowledge like a badge of honor, and yes, the church is perhaps a little better than some others about accepting evolution and contributing to the sciences but it still hinges on supporting the faith. I guess I give too much benefit of the doubt to people. I see someone arguing about something like the Fatima secrets and how it totes does come from Mary, and I assume they come from a place of true knowledge seeking. It's the same as when I see books about the evidence for the historical "accuracy" of the bible. These are smart people, I think, who are honestly seeking the truth no matter where it leads. I'm starting to realize that's really not the case
Quote from: Syrimoon on November 21, 2019, 08:51:18 AM
Ok y'all. Usually when I don't understand something religious or can't explain something religious there's at least arguments that look decent on the outside butt
I don't understand how anyone takes the secrets of Fatima seriously? I was down a rabbit hole reading people's theories and I always thought the secrets were at least, you know, prophesies. How can they take them seriously when they weren't even written down until years after the events they supposedly predicted?
Am I missing something here? They're so vague i...i expected more.
When things are first written down years later ... the memory confabulates both multiple experienced events in reality, but also adds in experienced events from dreams. This is a psychology problem, not a theology problem. For Catholicism, officially recognized miracles are political events, not theological, not psychological. The RNC is the largest, oldest bureaucracy on Earth. It has been pure politics since Constantine.
Fictional Jesus pointed out, that the flowers of the field are miracles. I agree. You and your brother are both heretics. Just not in the same faction now. Nothing wrong with that. Jesus was a Jewish heretic. Belief is a funny thing. Jesus said that even if a man rose from the dead, the people would not believe. I don't think historically, that anyone has risen from the dead. Jesus was being rhetorical, and not prophetic.
Most people can't think in metaphysical terms, only in physical terms. Thinking in physical terms is good, it gets you to the grocery store. But it isn't the full human experience. Even how we think about physical reality is based on rigorous definitions, that come out of metaphysics. Metaphysics literally means, what comes after physics. But more than that ;-)
Syrimoon, understand that Baruch is our resident theist. He believes in the unnatural; I suggest that if something exists it is natural. There is no unnatural. Either something 'is' or it does not exist. Metaphysical is beyond physics. There is no beyond physics.
I appreciate both of yalls responses. I'll be honest, I don't know where instant yet between theist, atheist, agnostic, etc, I'm mostly concerned with continuing to seperate myself from a Christian only worldview and the dogma that comes with it, so I do appreciate multiple views here, though I'm trying to learn to look at things through a rational and physical worldview
Quote from: Syrimoon on November 21, 2019, 09:55:06 AM
You know even as a devout Catholic I was always suspicious of any miracle. I believed in them in the abstract but when presented with one I was always like, ok Yes but
That's the way it was for me as a Lutheran, although I don't think we made a big deal about the modern day miracles like an image in pizza crust. I used to think the idea of miracles was kind of nice, and I happily played along because it was like my little friends and I that used to stand in front of a brick wall and command it to open a door like in Arabian Nights, but of course we didn't really believe it, and I thought that was the way for everyone. They didn't really believe in miracles along with about half of what the Bible said, but we all played along because the idea was nice. Later, when I found out that many people actually believed, even claimed to know that God existed, I distanced myself from the whole thing, because I didn't want anyone to get the idea that I actually believe that stuff.
Quote from: SGOS on November 21, 2019, 03:29:18 PM
That's the way it was for me as a Lutheran, although I don't think we made a big deal about the modern day miracles like an image in pizza crust. I used to think the idea of miracles was kind of nice, and I happily played along because it was like my little friends and I that used to stand in front of a brick wall and command it to open a door like in Arabian Nights, but of course we didn't really believe it, and I thought that was the way for everyone. They didn't really believe in miracles along with about half of what the Bible said, but we all played along because the idea was nice. Later, when I found out that many people actually believed, even claimed to know that God existed, I distanced myself from the whole thing, because I didn't want anyone to get the idea that I actually believe that stuff.
That's a very familiar situation. I remember getting in a fight with my older sister when I was only six because I couldn't understand that people really believed god was real. Then again at 11 I was asking my friends if they ever wondered if the bible was just all made up by men a long long time ago, and was surprised theyenever had any doubts they eoilf admit to
Quote from: Syrimoon on November 21, 2019, 01:23:46 PM
I appreciate both of yalls responses. I'll be honest, I don't know where instant yet between theist, atheist, agnostic, etc, I'm mostly concerned with continuing to seperate myself from a Christian only worldview and the dogma that comes with it, so I do appreciate multiple views here, though I'm trying to learn to look at things through a rational and physical worldview
MikeCL is a good guy, but also a pure materialist. Per RNC both MikeCL and I are also heretics. Physics gets him to the grocery store, same as for me. I don't call on a magic carpet to get to my grocery store. Sorry for your health. I hope you can find a way to ameliorate. My daughter suffers from mental problems. I can hope that my more focused response is useful for you. And I extended that precisely because you should understand where I am coming from.
Baruch, you're a lot like quantum mechanics - anyone who thinks they understand you doesn't understand you.
;-)
Quote from: Unbeliever on November 22, 2019, 01:54:21 PM
Baruch, you're a lot like quantum mechanics - anyone who thinks they understand you doesn't understand you.
;-)
That is insightful. In QM you have to understand the whole, before you understand the part, the opposite of the usual. But really, I do hope one doesn't have to read all 36,000 posts to understand even one post ;-(