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Breaking story, so will update as needed.

https://www.politico.com/news/2019/10/07/trump-turkey-syria-invasion-037052 (https://www.politico.com/news/2019/10/07/trump-turkey-syria-invasion-037052)


American forces are to pull out of Northern Syria and have given the go-ahead to Erdogan for a Turkish invasion of the region. This follows years of cooperation with Kurdish forces who fought against ISIS with us and who were on the front-line, who suffered the brunt of the casualties, and whom we guaranteed protection and support.

They are considered enemies of the state by Erdogan's regime, and we just gave him permission to send his military into a Kurdish region of roughly 1.6 to 2.5 million ethnic Kurds.

Best case scenario, we just gave the thumbs up to ethnic cleansing and, by some freak turn of events, no one acts on it. Worst case scenario, we just gave a dictator the go-ahead to murder our allies once we were done with them.

America better hope every last Kurd is killed, because I don't think this is something they will ever forgive us for.

This was surprising. But the US forces are not pulling out from the region, from the immediate area. It's horrible for the civilians in the area needless to say. The thing is ordinary people like you and me are worried about civilian lives. This is something beyond a dictator unleashed in a land.

What allies, Shiranu? The Us forces are not there to protect civilians from ethnic cleansing or stop any conflict or war. They are there to control the region to US's benefit, to run with the hare and hunt with the hounds. Who weaponised ISIL? Who weaponises PKK? PKK and YPG is connected in every level. Who keeps weaponising terrorist organisations in the Middle East? These are international terrorist organisations. And bombs go off over here to kill civilians, not in the US.

Before 11/9 or Erdogan's government, Turkey had several operations in Iraq through 90s. Same thing. There wasn't a dictator in Turkey then.   

Of course civilians will be affected horribly, but an 'ethnic cleansing' is a far fetched scenario. They can't afford something like that in any way. Firstly, it can't go very long. They need to be brief and effective from a real military operation front to have more support. They will be under scrutiny in an international area, and if they can't handle this professionally and attack civilians, it won't work for them.

But it is highly likely that YPG forces will hide in civilian homes and territory, kidnap civilians and their children force them to fight for them. Exactly, like PKK has been doing in the Southeastern Anatolia for decades.

So what do you want me to say? When civilians are killed in ISIL bombings, 'die terrorists, die', when they are killed in PKK bombings 'oh these ones are freedom fighters' is that it? What fucking bullshit.

Can you imagine a group of minority killing people trying to found an independent state in your country weaponised by everyone whoever has a horse in the race in the region?

And despite all that decades of war, millions of Turkish citizens have voted for the Kurdish Party to carry them into the parliament, to do something against Erdogan's one man gov, lessen its power and so the biggest minority can have a voice and place while PKK were bombing around civilians while millions of Kurdish people support Erdogan.

Threaten the border integrity of a country in the most fundamental way possible, a border that has been won with an independece war againt an empire  no less. Create a terrorist organisation weaponise it in 80s (PKK), spread that policy internationally, feed both sides for decades, tens of thousands of people die and keep dying, meanwhile human organisations screams their head off that the situation in Syria starting with drought will be a world scale disaster while world has no idea where this country called Syria (90s), weaponise all over the place, support a conservative party in Turkey to push a Turkish Islamic State against social democrats (AKP, Erdogan along with Fetullah Gülen) because a social democratic government won't do in a Middle Eastern country, what good it is if there is no conflict? Then launch two invasions against islamic terrorism (biggest joke), radical groups multiply like a super virus colonies, 3 million people die, tens of millions move from one post to other THEN support a so called Leftist Democratic Union against a terrorist organisation that popped up like a mushroom as 'allies' AND then drop it 'OK, I am done with this'.

And you think this is a decision made by Trump administration alone? You believe that the US did something against its benefit and profit? We really do live in different worlds. So do you and the politicians in the US.

The USA still has the "infinite wars" in the Middle East to obtain natural resources and propaganda. It's nothing new and that's sad, but why do you think they pull out for anything Shranu? For more profit.

They really stuck their necks out in the fight against Daesh fanatics.  They should've been rewarded with some land to call their own, not like this.  At best, it's contemptible double-dealing with a key ally.  Definitely something prospective allies will keep in mind.

Somebody posted this tweet. I first thought it was an old one but then...Europe and others? Does anyone have any idea about his great and unmatched wisdom's allies or his enemies?

QuoteAs I have stated strongly before, and just to reiterate, if Turkey does anything that I, in my great and unmatched wisdom, consider to be off limits, I will totally destroy and obliterate the Economy of Turkey (I’ve done before!). They must, with Europe and others, watch over...

Why do you think they didn't expect this to happen and trusted US policies in the first place? Why do you think they are US allies in the first place? Why do you think anyone supporting them actually want them to have their own land? Or what do you think is going to change in the region if they have their own land? How are they going to hold on to that land and found an independent state without constant US presence which would require a much bigger force? 

There will be another ISIL created somewhere in the area when it is needed and another indigenous group will fight against it. And US will support that too. So they will be rewarded with that land too? US will stay and protect their presence too?

Rewarded by whom on what authority, by the way? By force and showing a big stick -considering noone speaks softly anymore? Don't you think if this was that easy and profitable it would be done before?

This is not designed to have an end game like marvel or some pc games, guys. There is not some big boss in the end. This is about keeping a region under constant fire.

Quote from: Hydra009 on October 07, 2019, 11:59:03 AM
They really stuck their necks out in the fight against Daesh fanatics.  They should've been rewarded with some land to call their own, not like this.  At best, it's contemptible double-dealing with a key ally.  Definitely something prospective allies will keep in mind.

Check out 1919, Versailles.  Wilson wanted a Kurdish homeland.  The US has been disappointing them for 100 years exactly.  The Kurds trust the US?  They aren't babies.  They are a 2000 year old tribal invasion of Aramaic territory.  Cutthroats, all of them.  Check out the Aramaic genocides prior to 1900.  Shiranu would rationalize this as genius, if it were done by President Hillary (the butcher).

Rumsfeld helped Saddam develop better chemical weapons in the 1980s.  Used against Iran and the Kurds (who are Persian also).

Some nation 'promising' to 'reward' something to this nation or that...lol it is...what do you even call that? That is the beginning of every bloodshed around here in the Middle East. Playing god and people's belief in policies sold with it. Well, there is no god.

When these Kurdish organisations managed to build an independent state(s) - they are aiming for more than one - they will continue to bomb around beyond their borders. This won't end like the IRA story.   

It's not about who is cutthroat or not. Everybody is. The problem is very complicated and intricate. From what is actually happening in reality to thinking in parallel with any government policies, believing people in one culture act different than others. That's people. People and politics are very two different worlds.

The conflict with Kurds is something far beyond a dictator attacking somewhere because he feels like it. If someone else was sitting there, it would be the same.

John Oliver expressed something so bluntly once, I was very surprised. He said something like 'if you roll back time, you would see an English officer at the start of every conflict we have today in the world.' Well, when one empire loses that power, that place, another one fills it. That's how power works. And the resident culture is already primitive.   

Oh ffs, I don't even have the energy to write about this. Everything is so upsetting and depressing.

Question, were Kurds part of asymmetrical warfare of Iran against Turkey going back 500 or more years?  Ghazis?  Particularly after Persia went Shia?

I have no idea. Why?

Quote from: drunkenshoe on October 10, 2019, 10:59:46 AM
I have no idea. Why?

You are just a German academic who happens to have Turkish as your first language?  Right?  Don't even know Turkish history?  That is an American trait ;-)

I am a dollar short and a day late.  Did you even catch that President Trump threatened to make war against your country if you are "too rough with the Kurds or Syrian refugees?  Get out while you still can?  Will there eventually be "shock and awe" against this new ally of Russia?

Well, apparently "the Kurds didn't help us at Normandy."

Quote from: Unbeliever on October 10, 2019, 06:26:28 PM
Well, apparently "the Kurds didn't help us at Normandy."

The French contribution to WW II was exaggurated to make General DeGaulle look good.

Sorry, I don't believe that you know anything about Kurdish history.  Even drunkenshoe apparently doesn't.

Quote from: Unbeliever on October 10, 2019, 06:26:28 PMWell, apparently "the Kurds didn't help us at Normandy."

For a country that didn't get involved until 1941, our POTUS probably shouldn't be casting those sorts of accusations.  Glass houses and all that.

Quote from: Hydra009 on October 10, 2019, 07:44:09 PM
For a country that didn't get involved until 1941, our POTUS probably shouldn't be casting those sorts of accusations.  Glass houses and all that.

Speaking as an American .. I despise the French.  I wasn't even alive in 1941.  And I wouldn't be POTUS of a bunch of monkeys.

Laugh while you can monkey boy!  LOL

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJeS-cB6dM8

Also, Erdogan has threatened to send millions of refugees to EU if they don't support his "antiterrorist" military strikes, which is kinda funny in a dark sort of way because these strikes have just created a lot of refugees.

QuoteThe EU struck a migration deal with Turkey in 2016 after political backlash over the inflow of hundreds of thousands of asylum seekers. The bloc promised to give Ankara â,¬6 billion ($6.6 billion).

As a result, the number of people crossing into Greece and other Southern European countries dropped sharply.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/turkeys-erdogan-threatens-eu-with-wave-of-refugees-if-it-doesnt-support-syria-offensive-11570724256

He definitely gives me the impression that he looks at these poor people with dollar signs in his eyes.  A real humanitarian.

I have just seen this. Cenk Uygur's explanation, esp. the example of comparing Israel-Filistin and Turkey- PKK situations is very accurate. PKK, not Kurds. Israel protecting itself against terrorism is taken as natural, while there is no context given with Turkish-Kurdish conflict, but only seen as merely an attempt at ethnic cleansing just the heck of it. Turkey is not a rich counrty, it is drowning in debt. There is no explanation anywhere other than bad Turks just hate Kurds. It's ridiculous.

He is also right about that Turkish government actually is very frustrated by the situation. I can add a few other things to that. Firstly tons of turkish people are against sending their sons to there to die (military service is manadatory here, don't forget that not a private entity) and because it is a military operation, because well it is an operation that puts the country in bad light, get them demonised like this. It's again ridiculous people demonise that Turks wouldn't think that way. Also, Turkish citizens don't want Syrians in their country. It will be the first thing to keep his vote down if he can't solve this and as I said before much more money is paid for them than taken for keeping them. Considering the general elections are not far away while Erdogan's party has lost the big centers in the locals, it is not a really good thing to do from a lot of points, but bombings going on around in the country is worse.

So I agree with him. It's very messy and complicated. Except that unlike him and her, I don't see how this move is so extraordinary, considering the hundred year ally logic/dynamics in the Middle East. This is not about Trump not knowing about the ME, I doubt he is the one that made this decision or any other like it. It's a game, in a game, in a game...etc while civilians suffer which nobody cares. It seems USA wants to be seen as out on some important fronts, but why? Also, Saudi Arabia has been supporting PKK for a long time now. So nothing surprising there. I am more worried about ISIL prisoners than anything. Sigh.

Also, he has been threatening EU with the same thing for years now. Considering they cost more than what is 'earned' for them, they are for political use. Also there is racism and hostility against these people over here. It's not good for them either.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aymZNJ-4pg

Quote from: Unbeliever on October 10, 2019, 08:30:20 PM
Laugh while you can monkey boy!  LOL

Can't wait for Emperor Xi sends you to Uigher reeducation camp.  Or harvest your Falung Gong organs?

I will be disappointed if drunkenshoe isn't a Turkish patriot.  Support Erdogan reconquest of the Ottoman Empire.  Which would actually be an improvement.

Quote from: Hydra009 on October 10, 2019, 09:14:34 PM
Also, Erdogan has threatened to send millions of refugees to EU if they don't support his "antiterrorist" military strikes, which is kinda funny in a dark sort of way because these strikes have just created a lot of refugees.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/turkeys-erdogan-threatens-eu-with-wave-of-refugees-if-it-doesnt-support-syria-offensive-11570724256

He definitely gives me the impression that he looks at these poor people with dollar signs in his eyes.  A real humanitarian.

There are already 300,000 Chinese slave workers (not immigrants) in Italy.  I hope Erdogan sends the whole Middle East to Germany.  Death to Germany!

I just cussed at you in Turkish and realised it is impossible to translate. So as our undestanding of patriotism is likely to be miles apart, consider yourself dissapointed. It will save time and energy. 

It's too bad Trump's daddy didn't pull out, before it was too late.

Where do you suppose those bombs came from that are being used to kill the Kurds?

Quote from: Unbeliever on October 11, 2019, 02:31:39 PM
Where do you suppose those bombs came from that are being used to kill the Kurds?

We do know the American munitions industry hasn't lacked for work or profits since WWII!  After all we KNEW Saddam had weapons of mass destruction because we built them and gave them to him!  Without US made arms and munitions most of the world's armed conflicts would have to grind to a halt--what a shame that would be. 

Quote from: drunkenshoe on October 11, 2019, 04:53:24 AM
I just cussed at you in Turkish and realised it is impossible to translate. So as our undestanding of patriotism is likely to be miles apart, consider yourself dissapointed. It will save time and energy.

Yes, Google Translate is fake ... it inputs X and outputs Y ... without any understanding.  See The Chinese Room.  Cursing is probably idiomatic.  And idioms are probably the most difficult for humans to translate, and impossible for machine translation.

So patriot as in ... loyal daughter of Germany?  If you have formally changed your citizenship, then good for you.

Honestly, I can't imagine that patriotism in Anatolia .. a 4500 year old civilization with a dozen historical cultures (including Greek) ... could be any less complicated.  Much more than a baby country like the US.

Quote from: Unbeliever on October 11, 2019, 02:25:04 PM
It's too bad Trump's daddy didn't pull out, before it was too late.

And JFK's, LBJ's, Nixon's etc.  The US is a warmonger nation.  We just can't profit anymore from murdering our own natives.  Been true for 120 years now.  Remember the Maine!

Quote from: Unbeliever on October 11, 2019, 02:31:39 PM
Where do you suppose those bombs came from that are being used to kill the Kurds?

Nato.  Aren't the Europeans nice?  They are co-conspirators with us on genocide in Ukraine.

Quote from: Mike Cl on October 11, 2019, 05:56:31 PM
We do know the American munitions industry hasn't lacked for work or profits since WWII!  After all we KNEW Saddam had weapons of mass destruction because we built them and gave them to him!  Without US made arms and munitions most of the world's armed conflicts would have to grind to a halt--what a shame that would be.

T72s from Soviet Union in Iraq, our fault too ;-)

So US forces were very nearly shelled today by our "ally", but that's cool because they were trying to shell Kurds and our guys just happened to get in the way.  Oopsie.

Also, Turkish shelling hit a prison housing Daesh fanatics and some of them may have escaped (https://time.com/5698735/turkish-shells-islamic-state-prison/).  That's something Secular Talk brought up as a possibility - when Kurdish positions come under fire from Turkish forces, the guards are 9 times out of 10 gonna run for their lives, like any sane person would.  What happens to the prisoners?  Best case scenario: they stay under lock and key, with or without guards.  Worst case, there's now a hole in the wall to freedom, courtesy of the Turkish military.  Would you roll those dice?  Cause I sure as hell wouldn't.

QuoteSo US forces were very nearly shelled today by our "ally", but that's cool because they were trying to shell Kurds and our guys just happened to get in the way.  Oopsie.

Why do you think this is not a real failure? Why would they try to shell US forces on purpose? It is counter productive and stupid. Frankly, I find your pr126 look to the situation pretty useless. Your point of view is 'Orcs are coming to destroy the human villages'. Or may be you think everyone would attack the US forces in the region? 

YPG hasn't fought with ISIL and protect the region to save the world or even destroy ISIL, they did it because otherwise ISIL would annihilate them. They would do the same thing no matter who were there. They wouldn't have fired a bullet to ISIL if they had served their agenda. And when/if that agenda changes, they will attack US forces. 

About civilians. Let me bring up me something far more important than 'nearly shelled' beyond just a possibility, PKK and YPG's main strategy has always been using suicide bombers to kill civilians and tied to that strategy or philosophy whatever you want to call it, they hide in civilian homes and use them as shields. Do you think those civilians are OK with that? They invade civilian homes, kidnap and use children old enough to carry a weapon as 'soldiers'. Like ISIL. They are fundamentalists too. Islamic fundamentalists, Communist Fundamentalists... Terrorist organisation don't make a good ally or fight with rules regarding to civilians. It's far worse than armies.

I guess, as 'Syrian Kurds' are not telling about these, oopsie, so it is all OK when it is your 'ally', right? It is bad when they are islamic fundamentalists, but OK if they some other one not in the menu today.

But in the end, either way, civilians over here at lethal risk, not in the US. 

These are from AA: Anadolu Agency. Even though the expression is annoying and forced, texts repeat, I doubt that there is anything else about these in the international news as in civilian death toll. There has been almost no reports in the general main stream media about previous PKK/YPG attacks on border, killing civilians. I am not giving any links from newspaper sites, because it is unreadable to me. Disgusting. I don't even click them.

E: OK Reuters and Aljazeera have mentions.

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/operation-peace-spring/turkey-2-civilians-killed-in-ypg-pkk-attack-from-syria/1610488

Turkey: 2 civilians killed in YPG/PKK attack from Syria
Terrorist YPG/PKK targets civilians in Turkey’s border districts of Suruc and Nusaybin

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/operation-peace-spring/turkey-8-civilians-martyred-in-ypg-attack-from-syria/1610747

Turkey: 8 civilians martyred in YPG attack from Syria
Terrorist YPG/PKK targets civilians in Nusaybin district of Turkey’s southeastern Mardin province

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/operation-peace-spring/ypg-pkk-rocket-attacks-injure-16-civilians-in-se-turkey/1609031

YPG/PKK rocket attacks injure 16 civilians in SE Turkey
Rockets and mortars fired from YPG/PKK-occupied areas in northern Syria hit Turkish border towns

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/ypg-pkk-attacks-syrian-civilians-uses-them-as-shields/1608054

YPG/PKK attacks Syrian civilians, uses them as shields
One civilian killed and seven injured by terrorists in Jarablus district

Quote from: drunkenshoe on October 12, 2019, 02:48:22 AM
Why do you think this is not a real failure? Why would they try to shell US forces on purpose? It is counter productive and stupid.

Apparently, you're smarter than the actual people in charge, but it sure seems like it was on purpose (https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2019/10/12/us-forces-say-turkey-was-deliberately-bracketing-american-forces-with-artillery-fire-syria/).

Of course, we shouldn't have boots on the ground there in the first place, and definitely not after Trump gave Erdogan free reign to let loose in the area.  But apparently, Trump thought that was a bluff (https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-syria-mistake-thought-turkey-bluffed-invasion-axios-2019-10), which amazingly, doesn't even crack the top 10 personality misjudgements in the few years he's been in office.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on October 12, 2019, 03:09:19 AMThere has been almost no reports in the general main stream media about previous PKK/YPG attacks on border, killing civilians.

Admittedly, I did not know this (1 dead 7 injured is more akin to a rough day at a Texas elementary school rather than an armed conflict) but for the sake of argument, let's say some Kurds are attacking Turks at the border.  Is the sensible response to send in the tanks and start shelling?

Because I guarantee, if Israel did something like that, you (and I) would be sickened by that.  And that's not even a hypothetical.  Things along those lines have happened and we have reacted that way, only this time only one of us is having that reaction now.  What changed?

And here's a classic example of how this whole thing is a HUGE mistake:  Syrian loyalist forces looks like they're going to get in the mix. (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-syria-security-government-sdf/syrian-army-to-deploy-along-turkish-border-in-deal-with-kurdish-led-forces-idUSKBN1WS0PF)  Basically, another gigantic middle eastern clusterf*ck.

Shoe, do you honestly look at news like this and have even the tiniest glimmer of hope that everything's going to work out fine?  Because I guarantee you, it won't.

And one last thing, now there's literal fake news (https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/abc-news-slaughter-in-syria-footage-appears-to-come-from-a-kentucky-gun-range) involved in reporting this developing conflict:

https://youtu.be/BuO6yJrRAYw

So now we can't even be sure we're getting an accurate picture of what's going on from generally accepted sources, to say nothing of obviously untrustworthy sites.  The first casualty of war...

Hydra, how did I give the impression that I think everything is going to work out fine? That's not possible with any armed conflict much less complicated than this. My reaction is to the general attitude.

What do you want me to say? I am trying to keep this as unemotional as possible from my point of view. I am upset and depressed because this is going to have a real impact on my life with American sanctions made as a result of American policies and president's game and a natural reaction of the country I live in.  Dollar is gonna fly and frankly I don't know what my purchase power will fall down to. You know what I am thinking? Will there be a civil war in my country? When are we going to become Syria in the end? Shall I be able to buy meat or a bottle of wine next year? And then I am thinking people are running away for their lives and feel bad about I am thinking about buying food and drinks. Then I wonder how many civilians more will be killed in the border villages -Turkish-Kurdish- by their kinship... 

And you people are talking about 'policing' the world. Rewarding...

Quote from: Hydra009 on October 14, 2019, 09:55:39 PM
Apparently, you're smarter than the actual people in charge, but it sure seems like it was on purpose (https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2019/10/12/us-forces-say-turkey-was-deliberately-bracketing-american-forces-with-artillery-fire-syria/).

I hadn't seen any information of the sort when I posted. Did you know that before you wrote it? So I wasn't being sarcastic, I was refering to the general attitude which can be understood from the following in the post.

When the US troops are invading somewhere, it is to protect the country, its benefits and interests; it's business. But with Turkish troops people scream their head off 'ethnic cleansing!', 'genocide!'. The thing is the president over here is doing the same thing all the other US presidents have done before. He is a business man like Trump. This was going to happen with or without Erdoğan. Because if they do not do this we will fall in Syria’s position in time. There is a threat on a soverign country’s borders. What do you expect?

All I hear you say is 'We can do it, you can't.' It's what the whole ME has been hearing for the last two hundred years or so. That's your example.

QuoteOf course, we shouldn't have boots on the ground there in the first place, and definitely not after Trump gave Erdogan free reign to let loose in the area.  But apparently, Trump thought that was a bluff (https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-syria-mistake-thought-turkey-bluffed-invasion-axios-2019-10), which amazingly, doesn't even crack the top 10 personality misjudgements in the few years he's been in office.

You need to check the history of the US using Kurdish tribes in the region for various policies, conflicts in the past. This goes back to beginning of the 1960s to Saddam Husseyin.

QuoteOf course, we shouldn't have boots on the ground there in the first place, ...

See, this is a completely different question in the big picture. Seriously, what have you been doing there? As I said before, from British Empire to the US reigning in the area, invading around, promising ethnic tribes lands, playing this one with the other for a 100 years -yeah tribes, the numbers don't change anything that's the life style, that’s the vision- is what brought this situation to this point. Because frankly, nobody actually has that authority, it is just a long time military threat and a political game. And it is bound to explode here and there. Because PKK/YPG are terrorist organisations and do kill in Turkey systematically. And the country will react to it. Again this is not about Erdoğan. Again, because integrity of borders of a country is under serious threat.

Can you imagine Mexicans bombing around in around border cities or even in big cities? Claiming land? What wold the US do? Vaporise the whole country? Or they would have been already annihilated a hundred years ago?

As far as I understand, Trump is only thinking about shooting a few birds with one stone. He just wants to keep appearances, not to engage with in any real conflict, wants to distract and keep people/politicians in the US outraged.  But if you think about it, this is generally a republican policy what he did. It’s just the climate makes it extreme. Obviously, there isn’t a good money there.

Quote from: Hydra009 on October 14, 2019, 10:08:57 PM
And here's a classic example of how this whole thing is a HUGE mistake:  Syrian loyalist forces looks like they're going to get in the mix. (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-syria-security-government-sdf/syrian-army-to-deploy-along-turkish-border-in-deal-with-kurdish-led-forces-idUSKBN1WS0PF)  Basically, another gigantic middle eastern clusterf*ck.

And then after this they will go on killing each other and civillians in the region. Hydra, if you have read my posts in this thread I am the one who is saying ‘what allies?’

Also I am sure there are more fake news out there, I didn’t post anything fake knowingly.

But none of them beats down labeling terrorist groups as ‘heroes’ for years, ‘oh because we weaponised them and so they helped us'. Against what? Another extremist-terrorist group that would annihilate them anyway. 

About the US 'policing' the world and keeping order. And this is from an opposition point to the existence of my country.

Allies, promises, world policing...

https://theintercept.com/2019/10/07/kurds-syria-turkey-trump-betrayal/

THE U.S. IS NOW BETRAYING THE KURDS FOR THE EIGHTH TIME

QuoteWhat Krugman left out, however, is the most likely explanation: (d) Trump is president of the United States. Nothing in this world is certain except death, taxes, and America betraying the Kurds.

The U.S. has now betrayed the Kurds a minimum of eight times over the past 100 years. The reasons for this are straightforward.

The Kurds are an ethnic group of about 40 million people centered at the intersection of Turkey, Syria, Iran, and Iraq. Many naturally want their own state. The four countries in which they live naturally do not want that to happen.

On the one hand, the Kurds are a perfect tool for U.S. foreign policy. We can arm the Kurds in whichever of these countries is currently our enemy, whether to make trouble for that country’s government or to accomplish various other objectives. On the other hand, we don’t want the Kurds we’re utilizing to ever get too powerful. If that happened, the other Kurds â€" i.e., the ones living just across the border in whichever of these countries are currently our allies â€" might get ideas about freedom and independence.

Here’s how that dynamic has played out, over and over and over again since World War I.

1 â€" Like many other nationalisms, Kurdish nationalism blossomed during the late 1800s. At this point, all of the Kurdish homeland was ruled by the sprawling Ottoman Empire, centered in present day-Turkey. But the Ottoman Empire collapsed after fighting on the losing side of World War I. This, the Kurds understandably believed, was their moment.

The 1920 Treaty of Sèvres completely dismembered the Ottoman Empire, including most of what’s now Turkey, and allocated a section for a possible Kurdistan. But the Turks fought back, making enough trouble that the U.S. supported a new treaty in 1923, the Treaty of Lausanne. The Treaty of Lausanne allowed the British and French to carve off present-day Iraq and Syria, respectively, for themselves. But it made no provision for the Kurds.

This was America’s first, and smallest, betrayal of the Kurds. At this point, the main Kurdish betrayals were handled by the British, who crushed the short-lived Kingdom of Kurdistan in Iraq during the early 1920s. A few years later, the British were happy to see the establishment of a Kurdish “Republic of Ararat,” because it was on Turkish territory. But it turned out that the Turks were more important to the British than the Kurds, so the United Kingdom eventually let Turkey go ahead and extinguish the new country.

This was the kind of thing that gave the British Empire the nickname “perfidious Albion.” Now America has taken up the perfidious mantle.

2 â€" After World War II, the U.S. gradually assumed the British role as main colonial power in the Mideast. We armed Iraqi Kurds during the rule of Abdel Karim Kassem, who governed Iraq from 1958 to 1963, because Kassem was failing to follow orders.

We then supported a 1963 military coup â€" which included a small supporting role by a young Saddam Hussein â€" that removed Kassem from power. We immediately cut off our aid to the Kurds and, in fact, provided the new Iraqi government with napalm to use against them.

3 â€" By the 1970s, the Iraqi government had drifted into the orbit of the Soviet Union. The Nixon administration, led by Henry Kissinger, hatched a plan with Iran (then our ally, ruled by the Shah) to arm Iraqi Kurds.

The plan wasn’t for the Kurds in Iraq to win, since that might encourage the Kurds in Iran to rise up themselves. It was just to bleed the Iraqi government. But as a congressional report later put it, “This policy was not imparted to our clients, who were encouraged to continue fighting. Even in the context of covert action ours was a cynical enterprise.”

Then the U.S. signed off on agreements between the Shah and Saddam that included severing aid to the Kurds. The Iraqi military moved north and slaughtered thousands, as the U.S. ignored heart-rending pleas from our erstwhile Kurdish allies. When questioned, a blasé Kissinger explained that “covert action should not be confused with missionary work.”

4 â€" During the 1980s, the Iraqi government moved on to actual genocide against the Kurds, including the use of chemical weapons. The Reagan administration was well aware of Saddam’s use of nerve gas, but because they liked the damage Saddam was doing to Iran, it opposed congressional efforts to impose sanctions on Iraq. The U.S. media also faithfully played its role. When a Washington Post reporter tried to get the paper to publish a photograph of a Kurd killed by chemical weapons, his editor responded, “Who will care?”

5 â€" As the U.S. bombed Iraq during the Gulf War in 1991, George H.W. Bush famously called on “the Iraqi military and Iraqi people to take matters into their own hands, to force Saddam Hussein, the dictator, to step aside.” Both Iraqi Shias in southern Iraq and Iraqi Kurds in northern Iraq heard this and tried to do exactly that.

It turned out that Bush wasn’t being 100 percent honest about his feelings on this subject. The U.S. military stood down as Iraq massacred the rebels across the country.

Why? New York Times columnist Thomas Friedman soon explained that “Mr. Bush never supported the Kurdish and Shiite rebellions against Mr. Hussein, or for that matter any democracy movement in Iraq” because Saddam’s “iron fist simultaneously held Iraq together, much to the satisfaction of the American allies Turkey and Saudi Arabia.” What the U.S. wanted was for the Iraqi military, not regular people, to take charge. “Then,” Friedman wrote, “Washington would have the best of all worlds: an iron-fisted Iraqi junta without Saddam Hussein.”

6 â€" Nevertheless, the dying Iraqi Kurds looked so bad on international television that the Bush administration was forced to do something. The U.S. eventually supported what was started as a British effort to protect Kurds in northern Iraq.

During the Clinton administration in the 1990s, these Kurds, the Iraqi Kurds, were the good Kurds. Because they were persecuted by Iraq, our enemy, they were worthy of U.S. sympathy. But the Kurds a few miles north in Turkey started getting uppity too, and since they were annoying our ally, they were the bad Kurds. The U.S. sent Turkey huge amounts of weaponry, which it used â€" with U.S. knowledge â€" to murder tens of thousands of Kurds and destroy thousands of villages.

7 â€" Before the Iraq War in 2003, pundits such as Christopher Hitchens said we had to do it to help the Kurds. By contrast, Pentagon Papers whistleblower Daniel Ellsberg had this dour exchange with neoconservative William Kristol on C-SPAN just as the war started:

Ellsberg: The Kurds have every reason to believe they will be betrayed again by the United States, as so often in the past. The spectacle of our inviting Turks into this war … could not have been reassuring to the Kurds …

Kristol: I’m against betraying the Kurds. Surely your point isn’t that because we betrayed them in the past, we should betray them this time?

Ellsberg: Not that we should, just that we will.

Kristol: We will not. We will not.

Ellsberg, of course, was correct. The post-war independence of Iraqi Kurds made Turkey extremely nervous. In 2007, the U.S. allowed Turkey to carry out a heavy bombing campaign against Iraqi Kurds inside Iraq. By this point, Kristol’s magazine the Weekly Standard was declaring that this betrayal was exactly what America should be doing.

With Trump’s thumbs-up for another slaughter of the Kurds, America is now on betrayal No. 8. Whatever you want to say about U.S. actions, no one can deny that we’re consistent.

The Kurds have an old, famous adage that they “have no friends but the mountains.” Now more than ever, it’s hard to argue that that’s wrong.

I suspect that the real villains behind the entire mess would be the war mongers that make and sell weapons around the world.  If you're core business is making and selling bombs there's no profit to be had from a peaceful existence anywhere other than your own front yard.
Somebody sold weapons to every side and will continue to sell to the highest bidder and even those who bid low, but just enough to turn a profit.

Quote from: Hydra009 on October 14, 2019, 10:01:05 PM
Admittedly, I did not know this (1 dead 7 injured is more akin to a rough day at a Texas elementary school rather than an armed conflict) but for the sake of argument, let's say some Kurds are attacking Turks at the border.  Is the sensible response to send in the tanks and start shelling?

Because I guarantee, if Israel did something like that, you (and I) would be sickened by that.  And that's not even a hypothetical.  Things along those lines have happened and we have reacted that way, only this time only one of us is having that reaction now.  What changed?

Israeli AF flies where they want, all the way back to 1981 when they destroyed the Iraqi experimental reactor.  And more recently when Israel destroyed the Syrian experimental reactor.  If the US hadn't been all over Iraq, Syria etc since 2009, fighting groups Israel tells the US to fight, supporting groups Israel tells the US to support, then Israel would have to do all of it themselves, arguably a worse situation.

Of course part of the terrorists were and still are US sponsored.  Al Qaida was and remains, a US supported terrorist group.  Maybe they went rogue on 9/11, maybe not ;-(  We still don't know what really happened in Las Vegas 2 years ago.  Kurdish terrorists are mostly an old local problem.  They take aid where they can get it, even from Damascus and the Russians, if necessary.

Quote from: AllPurposeAtheist on October 15, 2019, 12:18:41 PM
I suspect that the real villains behind the entire mess would be the war mongers that make and sell weapons around the world.  If you're core business is making and selling bombs there's no profit to be had from a peaceful existence anywhere other than your own front yard.
Somebody sold weapons to every side and will continue to sell to the highest bidder and even those who bid low, but just enough to turn a profit.

Soros as agent provocateur has nothing on the original ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basil_Zaharoff

The US made out on arms, 1914-1918 and 1939-1945, supplying GB and other allies.  The West was pulled out of Depression by WW II, and the post war miracle happened because of the Cold War.  Aside from financial problems with the Vietnam War and the gold standard, ME wars with Israel ... the Petrol Dollar has kept things going from 1971 - 1991.  The year 2000 and 2008-2009 debacles were the result of not enough war.

Quote from: AllPurposeAtheist on October 15, 2019, 12:18:41 PM
I suspect that the real villains behind the entire mess would be the war mongers that make and sell weapons around the world.  If you're core business is making and selling bombs there's no profit to be had from a peaceful existence anywhere other than your own front yard.
Somebody sold weapons to every side and will continue to sell to the highest bidder and even those who bid low, but just enough to turn a profit.

It's not just about selling weapons and profit per se, it is about the policies forced. Weapons are not sold for ornamenting houses, they are sold for to be used for a specific purpose.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on October 15, 2019, 01:36:05 PM
It's not just about selling weapons and profit per se, it is about the policies forced. Weapons are not sold for ornamenting houses, they are sold for to be used for a specific purpose.

Like killing Shia in Yemen?  How is that working out?

Quote from: Baruch on October 15, 2019, 01:40:43 PM
Like killing Shia in Yemen?  How is that working out?

Exactly the same way we are talking about, my dear moron.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on October 15, 2019, 01:41:54 PM
Exactly the same way we are talking about, my dear moron.

“The best laid schemes o' mice an' men / Gang aft a-gley.” - Robert Burns.  Things don't work out as planned, even in Scotland.

But no statecraft is based on morality or ethics.  But on individual and group interest.  See Julius Caesar or Alp Arslan.  From ancient Athens down to today, democracy is based on group delusion.

Really? Explain me why an overwhelming population of Western males love a Turkic-Mongolian monster like Genghis Khan?

The whole world seems to have a love affair with the nastiest people alive as long as they're supposed to be on our side. Once they step on the other side they're global villains.

Quote from: AllPurposeAtheist on October 15, 2019, 02:03:57 PM
The whole world seems to have a love affair with the nastiest people alive as long as they're supposed to be on our side. Once they step on the other side they're global villains.

It's not the people, APA. People give what they're given and shown and they see what they would like to see. I get that people in every country think poeple in other countries are different, but really, they are not.

By the way, I apologise for cussing you. I have no excuse. Just that I am so stressed.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on October 15, 2019, 01:51:07 PM
Really? Explain me why an overwhelming population of Western males love a Turkic-Mongolian monster like Genghis Khan?

Hahah ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKxtQzwoHH8

John Wayne played Genghis Khan as a Western!  What is not to like?  Genghis Khan (Mongolian) and Nial of the Nine Hostages (Irish) are the most prolific Alpha Males of all time.  Alpha Females are unable to compete even if they fertilized all their eggs.  All Alpha Males want to show no mercy to many 100,000 of enemies, the old fashioned way (decapitation to make a mountain of skulls, like Bamian (Place of Screams) in Afghanistan.  Atilla is a less successful version, died in the newlywed suite at the Hun camp.  Very stylish to pour molten silver down someones throat.  Unless it is Parthians pouring gold down the throat of General Crassus.

Orson Welles also played opposite Tyrone Power, as a Central Asian warlord.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_pldC_yeIY

Huh?  You need to do much better than that.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on October 15, 2019, 02:52:59 PM
Huh?  You need to do much better than that.

Only Turkish movies, and Turkish TV are the trend setters for USA memes?  That would be a bizarre claim.  Back in 1979, during the Iran hostage crisis, I wanted to genocide Iranians ... for no good reason.  Just because they offended my pride.  40 years ago, but I remember the ugly thoughts of my fellow Americans, of making Tehran into a glass parking lot.  We are a very violent people.  I myself, in 2001, wanted to treat Afghanistan like Genghis did.  Not proud of that.  That is what testosterone will do to you.  Thank goodness in the future we will all be beautiful submissive slave girls, with whoever succeeds George Soros in the role of super villain as Sugar Daddy, back when GB was groovy. ;-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYVb4OLk4NQ

That is the EU/UN for you.  Overly cultivated degenerates.

Oh, ffs. What are you doing?

Enjoying life.  Sorry you are in a conflict zone.  Seems things have gotten even more "interesting" for you.  I will predict/hope that Syria will settle down and the Syrian refugees return home.  I spite of John Bolton (recently let go by WH) attempt to join Congress in coup against Trump.  He appears to be the one behind the latest Ukraine-gate effort.  Neo-cons are psychos, I tell you!

Quote from: Baruch on October 15, 2019, 05:02:13 PM
Enjoying life.  Sorry you are in a conflict zone.  Seems things have gotten even more "interesting" for you.  I will predict/hope that Syria will settle down and the Syrian refugees return home.  I spite of John Bolton (recently let go by WH) attempt to join Congress in coup against Trump.  He appears to be the one behind the latest Ukraine-gate effort.  Neo-cons are psychos, I tell you!

I am in conflict zone?

Baruch's head is always in a conflict zone...

The United States is now threatening sanctions on Turkey if they do not cease immediately. Erdogan is basically telling us to fuck ourselves.

1. I'm sorry, what did you expect to happen? You give a dictator the green-light to start a military campaign, then when you tell him he has to stop you expect him to?

2. What does Russia stand to gain from this? When it comes to Trumpian policy, that should be the number one question. Does this leave a path open for Russia to gain territory or puppets and bridge the gap to warm water?

No.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on October 15, 2019, 05:40:05 PM
I am in conflict zone?

Izmir isn't Idlib, thought they both begin with "I".  But you are a lot closer than I am.  That and Erdogan is a bandit emir, just like Turks were 1000 years ago.  I love tradition!  All Turkish men should sport a big moustache, ride a Siberian pony, be Muslim, go "ghazi" ... think "land viking".  Central Asians, having the best parties ever since the Massagetae killed Cyrus of Persia.

Quote from: Unbeliever on October 15, 2019, 05:51:32 PM
Baruch's head is always in a conflict zone...

If you were a French street mime, how do you get on the Internet?

Quote from: Shiranu on October 15, 2019, 06:37:24 PM
The United States is now threatening sanctions on Turkey if they do not cease immediately. Erdogan is basically telling us to fuck ourselves.

1. I'm sorry, what did you expect to happen? You give a dictator the green-light to start a military campaign, then when you tell him he has to stop you expect him to?

2. What does Russia stand to gain from this? When it comes to Trumpian policy, that should be the number one question. Does this leave a path open for Russia to gain territory or puppets and bridge the gap to warm water?

America .. the new Mongol Horde (according to drunkenshoe).

Quote from: Shiranu on October 15, 2019, 06:37:24 PM
The United States is now threatening sanctions on Turkey if they do not cease immediately. Erdogan is basically telling us to fuck ourselves.

1. I'm sorry, what did you expect to happen? You give a dictator the green-light to start a military campaign, then when you tell him he has to stop you expect him to?

2. What does Russia stand to gain from this? When it comes to Trumpian policy, that should be the number one question. Does this leave a path open for Russia to gain territory or puppets and bridge the gap to warm water?

I hope Russia conquers the whole world.  Because Putin hates gays (sarc).

Quote from: Baruch on October 16, 2019, 09:02:29 AM
If you were a French street mime, how do you get on the Internet?

I'm not on the internet, I'm just a figment of your imagination.

Trump's letter to Erdogan of Turkey:

QuoteDear Mr. President:
Let’s work out a good deal! You don’t want to be responsible for slaughtering thousands of people, and I don’t want to be responsible for destroying the Turkish economyâ€"and I will. I’ve already given you a little sample with respect to Pastor Brunson.
I have worked hard to resolve some of your problems. Don’t let the world down. You can make a great deal. General Mazloum is willing to negotiate with you, and he is willing to make concessions that they never would have made in the past. I am confidentially enclosing his letter to me, just received.
History will look upon you favorably if you get this the right and humane way. It will look upon you forever as the devil if good things don’t happen. Don’t be a tough guy. Don’t be a fool!
I will call you later.

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2019/10/16/1892939/-This-letter-Trump-sent-to-the-President-of-Turkey-is-so-embarrassing-some-suspect-it-is-a-parody



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eL-NcBxYnfg

Quote from: drunkenshoe on October 15, 2019, 06:50:00 PM
No.

Russian military is moving into the region. You sure they don't have an interest in this fight?

The US apparently has 50 nuclear bombs at a base in Turkey. (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/turkey-syria-us-nuclear-weapons-bombs-trump-war-isis-kurds-a9158416.html)

I about had a coronary when I read that headline.

Look, I dunno about you guys, but that's about FIFTY TOO FUCKING MANY IN A GODDAMN POWDERKEG OF A REGION.  FUCK ME THAT'S STUPID.

Well, what could possibly go wrong?

Article from 2016 (https://www.stimson.org/content/us-nuclear-weapons-turkey-risk-seizure-terrorists-hostile-forces), so people have apparently known about this for years and no one has done anything about this other than warn of the pretty obvious and serious consequences OF HAVING GODDAMN NUKES FALL INTO TERRORIST HANDS:

QuoteThe continued presence of dozens of U.S. nuclear weapons at Incirlik Air Base in Turkey raises serious risks of their seizure by terrorists and other hostile forces, a new report by the nonpartisan Stimson Center finds. The report titled B61 Life Extension Program: Costs and Policy Considerations, found that it was an “unanswerable question,” whether the U.S. could have maintained control of the approximately 50 B61 nuclear weapons based at Incirlik during a protracted civil conflict in Turkey. During the failed July 15 coup attempt, power to Incirlik Air Base was cut off and the Turkish government prohibited U.S. aircraft from flying in or out. Eventually, the Incirlik base commander was arrested and implicated in the coup plot. The report’s findings come exactly one month after the failed coup attempt and on the heels of a milestone earlier this month authorizing the production and engineering phase of the B61 Life Extension Program.

“From a security point of view, it’s a roll of the dice to continue to have approximately 50 of America’s nuclear weapons stationed at Incirlik Air Base in Turkey, just 70 miles from the Syrian border,” said report co-author Laicie Heeley

Quote
“These bombs are ill-suited for modern warfare and incredibly costly,” said report co-author Barry Blechman, co-founder of the Stimson Center. “The smart move would be to remove these weapons from Europe and double down to strengthen conventional forces that actually protect our NATO allies.”

Thanks for the tip, Admiral Thrawn.

(https://i.imgur.com/3eB509M.jpg)

I mean, some of the points are pretty sensible, but reads like an essay I wrote on the bus in second grade.  Hell, I've put more thought into posts I've made here in the shitposting thread.  That and the general tone varies wildly from threatening to begging.

Please tell me this is a fake.  The nuke thing, too.

@drunkenshoe, is the English translation in this video accurate?

https://www.facebook.com/BakurKurds/videos/1131004256964539/

[mod]Per the young lady below that speaks the language the subtitles of this video are fake. They do not reflect what is being said. Please treat it accordingly.[/mod]

Quote from: Sylar on October 16, 2019, 10:08:31 PM
@drunkenshoe, is the English translation in this video accurate?

https://www.facebook.com/BakurKurds/videos/1131004256964539/

Whoa. No, it is not. It's fake. It's not just the subtitles, video looks edited-pasted from several different ones. First of all there is nothing about this in Turkish media or in the international media, because it is fake. Because these sessions can be watched from by its own channel live. Beyond that if any of the mutual threats or the speech were real, it would be used politically instantly, in and out. It would be a big deal. It would go viral. E: It's also seen by 2400 people since 2016, lol. Seriously?

He is not using a bad language to begin with, let alone threatening the PM or the country with some grand standing speech or screaming 'kill me' or 'drop your bombs...' He is using a normal language and saying that 34 civillians were killed 5 years ago then. He is also talking about a toddler's death. I think he is talking about this with the first? https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-16352388 A group of smugglers were killed being suspected as PKK militants. I am not sure.

As far as I can hear, nobody is shouting 'shoot him'. I heard someone saying 'you should be in prison'. They are mostly shouting "what are you talking about?" at the beginning. It's hard to hear the shoutings, it can't be understood probably why the video was found suitable to be used like this. Then it gets intense and I think somebody says 'terrorist' -I can't hear it- because he says 'You can shout all you want, but I am here as a voted official and you can't call me a terrorist'.

Somebody wrote completely different lines in the subtitles. The themes are very different to begin with. There is no talk about 'our free land' or Kurdistan or Greeks or Armenians or MoÄŸolistan ?. Or we are going to do this or that...Turks are this, Kurds are that. He is not even says Kurds or Turks. He is saying the civilian deaths related to this issue in the country is a real problem the government should look into and that they will adress this at every opportunity.

And the head of the parliament is only trying to calm people, but at some places his mouth is not even moving when there is voice. There are only two people with a microphone after all. He is not threatening him or adressing the others in a manner reflected in the vid. He is not saying anything other than trying to calm and warning that he should follow the regulations in the constitution. But that part seems to be added from somewhere else -where he has the red book in hear hand- because what is the relation? He is talking. It's what he says they react.

Quote from: Shiranu on October 16, 2019, 06:43:58 PM
Russian military is moving into the region. You sure they don't have an interest in this fight?

Russia has been trying to go down to the Mediterranean for centuries, I am sure beyond that and besides the usual power conflict with the USA and tons of things we have no clue about makes them follow their interests.

But I don't understand why are you asking this to me as if I can enlighten you with a rare insight. Or is it sarcasm?

Maybe Putin and Trump made a pact with ErdoÄŸan we don't know. By using Turkish position as a tool? Same policy as using Kurdish tribes and other forces in the region. After all Turkey is not a threat to any of them.

Quote from: Hydra009 on October 16, 2019, 08:36:48 PM
The US apparently has 50 nuclear bombs at a base in Turkey. (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/turkey-syria-us-nuclear-weapons-bombs-trump-war-isis-kurds-a9158416.html)

I about had a coronary when I read that headline.

Look, I dunno about you guys, but that's about FIFTY TOO FUCKING MANY IN A GODDAMN POWDERKEG OF A REGION.  FUCK ME THAT'S STUPID.

You didn't know there were US nukes in the Ä°ncirlik base in Turkey? Seriously? The only reason that base exists to keep those nukes. It was the largest troop movement in the US history, not sure for today. It's existed since 1950s. Others were closed in 1970s ? if I am not mistaken. If we assume there are no other hidden US bases in the country of course. Kinda hard to.

Quote from: Unbeliever on October 16, 2019, 06:29:27 PM
Trump's letter to Erdogan of Turkey:

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2019/10/16/1892939/-This-letter-Trump-sent-to-the-President-of-Turkey-is-so-embarrassing-some-suspect-it-is-a-parody

Yeah, I have seen this. But then why did they suspect it to be a parody? It sounds exactly like him, doesn't it? I'd like to see the drafts, lol. That could be more 'fun'. This is probably the mildest version of it. 

Also, it seems more and more -at least to to me- that besides the front show, this whole issue has already been discussed and decisions have already been made. It fits into the whole right leaning policies of the last few years perfectly from every side. Sigh. It's so scary. I'm scared.

Quote from: AllPurposeAtheist on October 15, 2019, 02:03:57 PM
The whole world seems to have a love affair with the nastiest people alive as long as they're supposed to be on our side. Once they step on the other side they're global villains.

APA! What a nice surprise. How are you?

Quote from: Unbeliever on October 16, 2019, 01:21:12 PM
I'm not on the internet, I'm just a figment of your imagination.

i didn't know that figs came in mint flavor.

Quote from: Shiranu on October 16, 2019, 06:43:58 PM
Russian military is moving into the region. You sure they don't have an interest in this fight?

They just want to help their Turkish ally.  Thank god the Russians aren't communist.

Quote from: Unbeliever on October 16, 2019, 08:41:36 PM
Well, what could possibly go wrong?

DailyKos is a DNC propaganda rag.  So no bonus points for you.  I prefer to take my Marxism neat ... read The Jacobin instead.

(https://theconservativetreehouse.files.wordpress.com/2019/10/trump-letter-to-erdogan-v2.jpg)

Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on October 17, 2019, 08:59:26 AM
(https://theconservativetreehouse.files.wordpress.com/2019/10/trump-letter-to-erdogan-v2.jpg)

Is that Trump's signature or a readout from his latest polygraph exam?

"Turkish President Erdogan "Dumped Trump's Letter In The Trash", Launched Syria Invasion In Response" .. the letter referenced in the article, seems the same as the one posted here earlier.

Yeah, Turkey, we needed your assistance in 1991 against Iraq, and didn't get it.  Worst Nato ally ever.  Enjoy your borsch rations in the Russian army.

Quote from: Unbeliever on October 16, 2019, 01:21:12 PM
I'm not on the internet, I'm just a figment of your imagination.

LOL, somebody over here wrote that Trump's recent letter is the proof that we actually exist in a simulation and they are making fun of us testing it in happy hours in the office while drinking.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on October 17, 2019, 09:24:44 AM
LOL, somebody over here wrote that Trump's recent letter is the proof that we actually exist in a simulation and they are making fun of us testing it in happy hours in the office while drinking.

Enjoy your arak while you can.  In Greece we call it ouzo.

Quote from: Baruch on October 17, 2019, 09:35:58 AM
Enjoy your arak while you can.  In Greece we call it ouzo.

What is arak? You mean rakı?

Quote from: SGOS on October 17, 2019, 09:14:49 AM
Is that Trump's signature or a readout from his latest polygraph exam?

LOL, it seems legit. He forgot the hearts and the xxxs though.

Quote from: Baruch on October 17, 2019, 08:58:29 AM
They just want to help their Turkish ally.  Thank god the Russians aren't communist.

Usually, the reason dictates that the guy who has your weapons is your ally and you shouldn't betray them. Esp. in the end when you are in the same boat called Nato. But then I just checked, Nato was founded in 1949; Ä°ncirlik air base was founded in 1951; Turkey has become a member im 1952. LOL, just LOL. Yeah well, the word is Gladio. Apparently, Gladio operations in Turkey are the only one that wasn't dismantled. And here we are trying to interpret it as if it can be. I wish we could cut out the country like a cake and put in the middle of the Pacific Ocean.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on October 17, 2019, 10:01:12 AM
Usually, the reason dictates that the guy who has your weapons is your ally and you shouldn't betray them. Esp. in the end when you are in the same boat called Nato. But then I just checked, Nato was founded in 1949; Ä°ncirlik air base was founded in 1951; Turkey has become a member im 1952. LOL, just LOL. Yeah well, the word is Gladio. Apparently, Gladio operations in Turkey are the only one that wasn't dismantled. And here we are trying to interpret it as if it can be. I wish we could cut out the country like a cake and put in the middle of the Pacific Ocean.

Sorry, Turkey lost my support in 1991.  They should never have been in Nato (cultural incompatibility).  Turkey's natural ally is Syria of course.

I'll alert the Turkish media.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on October 17, 2019, 03:26:50 AM
   

Whoa. No, it is not. It's fake. It's not just the subtitles, video looks edited-pasted from several different ones. First of all there is nothing about this in Turkish media or in the international media, because it is fake. Because these sessions can be watched from by its own channel live. Beyond that if any of the mutual threats or the speech were real, it would be used politically instantly, in and out. It would be a big deal. It would go viral. E: It's also seen by 2400 people since 2016, lol. Seriously?

He is not using a bad language to begin with, let alone threatening the PM or the country with some grand standing speech or screaming 'kill me' or 'drop your bombs...' He is using a normal language and saying that 34 civillians were killed 5 years ago then. He is also talking about a toddler's death. I think he is talking about this with the first? https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-16352388 A group of smugglers were killed being suspected as PKK militants. I am not sure.

As far as I can hear, nobody is shouting 'shoot him'. I heard someone saying 'you should be in prison'. They are mostly shouting "what are you talking about?" at the beginning. It's hard to hear the shoutings, it can't be understood probably why the video was found suitable to be used like this. Then it gets intense and I think somebody says 'terrorist' -I can't hear it- because he says 'You can shout all you want, but I am here as a voted official and you can't call me a terrorist'.

Somebody wrote completely different lines in the subtitles. The themes are very different to begin with. There is no talk about 'our free land' or Kurdistan or Greeks or Armenians or MoÄŸolistan ?. Or we are going to do this or that...Turks are this, Kurds are that. He is not even says Kurds or Turks. He is saying the civilian deaths related to this issue in the country is a real problem the government should look into and that they will adress this at every opportunity.

And the head of the parliament is only trying to calm people, but at some places his mouth is not even moving when there is voice. There are only two people with a microphone after all. He is not threatening him or adressing the others in a manner reflected in the vid. He is not saying anything other than trying to calm and warning that he should follow the regulations in the constitution. But that part seems to be added from somewhere else -where he has the red book in hear hand- because what is the relation? He is talking. It's what he says they react.

Thank you for clearing it up. This shows how important it is to fact check everything spread on social media. I received it in my inbox yesterday, but I don't like to spread somthing I do not understand, even with supposed subtitles.

A topic for another thread: how to shield elderly people -- especially those with lack of computer and internet skills -- from such propaganda?

Quote from: drunkenshoe on October 17, 2019, 12:10:38 PM
I'll alert the Turkish media.

Or you can have no friends at all.  Will Shia Iran love Turkey?  Iraq is half Shia, will they love Turkey?  Are the other Turkmen countries jealous of Turkey, will they help you invade Iran?  I supported the local Turkish cultural center when it opened 13 years ago, because I wanted my daughter to share in appreciating Near East culture.  But that isn't the same as supporting the Turkish ghazi government.

Quote from: Sylar on October 17, 2019, 12:12:28 PM
Thank you for clearing it up. This shows how important it is to fact check everything spread on social media. I received it in my inbox yesterday, but I don't like to spread somthing I do not understand, even with supposed subtitles.

A topic for another thread: how to shield elderly people -- especially those with lack of computer and internet skills -- from such propaganda?

In Turkey, aren't the senior men traditionally down at the coffee/hookah bar socializing?  When the senior women are at home cooking dinner?  We haven't had that in the US, since traditional saloons closed down in 1920.  Being non-Muslim of course they served alcohol at our bars.  Cocktail lounges aren't the same, particularly since they admit women.

Baruch, you are talking out of your ass again.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on October 17, 2019, 12:21:42 PM
Baruch, you are talking out of your ass again.

My ass is very smart, the smartest ass.  In fact my donkey is smart too.

I just want you to be safe.  You will have to flee, if Erdogan gets his way.

Quote from: Sylar on October 17, 2019, 12:12:28 PM
Thank you for clearing it up. This shows how important it is to fact check everything spread on social media. I received it in my inbox yesterday, but I don't like to spread somthing I do not understand, even with supposed subtitles.

A topic for another thread: how to shield elderly people -- especially those with lack of computer and internet skills -- from such propaganda?

You are welcome. It seems that videos and news feeds like this can be found everywhere, from every side. Hydra posted another one from Turkish side. But I don't see how it is possible to protect anyone from that.

People who jumped on that video to like in this forum are young people. Their computer and internet skills are above average, they know how social media works and they are supposedly from the free thinking slice of their country. Even without any knowledge of the language, they would know to check the date of the vid, the followers...etc. Or ask me about it, as you did. They should know my answer would be correct and objective. Because I will be a member of this forum for a decade next year and I have never posted any kind of propaganda, let alone fake videos to build some impression for what I personally defend or believe which we do get around here often.

So I don't think it is possible, esp. in a climate like this where people want to channel their frustration with their administration/current situation...etc into any possible target. It's a war, a lot of horrible things bound to happen, so don't get me wrong, I have no delusions. But this could have been about anything, I am not just talking about the current situation. It's just Turks make perfect villains, where certain terrorist organisations make perfect pawns victims when defined as 'Kurds'.  I am sure you have heard the phrase 'mammia il turchi'? Well, personally I have been exhuasted just in a several days and scared for my own, my life in every level. Seriously, noone can fight with this. It can't be done. 

Quote from: Baruch on October 17, 2019, 12:43:24 PM
My ass is very smart, the smartest ass.  In fact my donkey is smart too.

I just want you to be safe.  You will have to flee, if Erdogan gets his way.

Oh wow, seriously? It must be so easy to sit on that ass and tell someone to run away from their country when you had how many foriegn threats/attacks on your land again in the last couple of hundred years? 2 or 3?

Quote from: drunkenshoe on October 17, 2019, 12:21:42 PM
Baruch, you are talking out of your ass again.

What do you mean?  "again"??  Still!!

Quote from: drunkenshoe on October 17, 2019, 09:24:44 AM
LOL, somebody over here wrote that Trump's recent letter is the proof that we actually exist in a simulation and they are making fun of us testing it in happy hours in the office while drinking.

Yeah, I think it's Salvador Dali and some of his buddies.

Quote from: Sylar on October 17, 2019, 12:12:28 PM
A topic for another thread: how to shield elderly people -- especially those with lack of computer and internet skills -- from such propaganda?

"They" know just how to target specific people and groups with just the right propaganda to dupe them into acting against their best interests. I don't know how to keep them from doing it. I doubt there is a way, short of draconian measures like shutting down the internet, or at least regulating it more tightly, like China does.

Quote from: Mike Cl on October 17, 2019, 01:02:10 PM
What do you mean?  "again"??  Still!!

Is he an anal ventriloquist?

Apparently, US and Turkey have arrived to an agreement and the Turkish military operation in Syria is suspended. Waiting for reliable sources. Current source, I don't know it's reliable or not, I have never seen it before. https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/us-and-turkey-reach-agreement-temporarily-suspend-military-operation-syria

"Millions of lives saved." *Shakes head. FFS.

One wonders what did they agree upon before and what changed now? Another love letter? But they say ErdoÄŸan threw the last one in the bin. Aw. LOL

E: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-50091305

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/10/turkey-military-operation-syria-latest-updates-191017051518215.html

Quote from: drunkenshoe on October 17, 2019, 12:58:56 PM
Oh wow, seriously? It must be so easy to sit on that ass and tell someone to run away from their country when you had how many foriegn threats/attacks on your land again in the last couple of hundred years? 2 or 3?

Are you barred from an ... emergency vacation in Europe?  Supposedly the cease fire for 120 hours .. is enough to get the worst Kurds out of the way, and if successful, then a "permanent" cease fire will occur.  Also notice Erdogan had to accept Pence as emissary.  Fits my theory that Cheney was the real president, Biden was the real president and Pence is the real president.  George W, Barak and Donald are just .. bullet catchers just in case.

Quote from: Mike Cl on October 17, 2019, 01:02:10 PM
What do you mean?  "again"??  Still!!

Flbbt!

Quote from: Unbeliever on October 17, 2019, 01:38:43 PM
Yeah, I think it's Salvador Dali and some of his buddies.

Damn that Catalonian independence movement!  Where is General Franco when you need him!

I am still jealous of Dali's mustache.

http://www.totallyspaintravel.com/2013/04/26/the-salvador-dali-guide-to-catalonia-2013/

Catalonia back on the menu.  Catalexit!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBxGpWmAFds

Quote from: Unbeliever on October 17, 2019, 01:46:20 PM
Is he an anal ventriloquist?

I can make your arm pits talk too, we Jewish Gestapo have our ways!

Quote from: Unbeliever on October 17, 2019, 01:43:58 PM
"They" know just how to target specific people and groups with just the right propaganda to dupe them into acting against their best interests. I don't know how to keep them from doing it. I doubt there is a way, short of draconian measures like shutting down the internet, or at least regulating it more tightly, like China does.

Is that you, Dr Fu Manchu?  I am sure you would only allow authorized DNC to post on the Internet, like the good free speech advocate you Dems are.

Quote from: Baruch on October 17, 2019, 07:52:40 PM
Are you barred from an ... emergency vacation in Europe?  Supposedly the cease fire for 120 hours .. is enough to get the worst Kurds out of the way, and if successful, then a "permanent" cease fire will occur.

What is an emergency vacation? I don't hold any kind of visa for anywhere in Europe right now. Europe and US visiting visas are different. I explained it before, remember?

Well, I hope it will be successful and end of course. 

QuoteAlso notice Erdogan had to accept Pence as emissary.  Fits my theory that Cheney was the real president, Biden was the real president and Pence is the real president.  George W, Barak and Donald are just .. bullet catchers just in case.

What is he saying?

Erdogan was stomping his little foot, demanding to only treat with Trump directly, Pence etc were too low ranking for the Sultan of Swat.

I guess Trump made Erdogan a deal he couldn't refuse...

Quote from: Unbeliever on October 18, 2019, 02:26:25 PM
I guess Trump made Erdogan a deal he couldn't refuse...

Yep. A deal that gives Turkey everything they wanted in negotiations, according to the NATO representative. Can't refuse that.

Also, Turkey has already broken the ceasefire multiple times.

Art of the deal, baby.

Quote from: Shiranu on October 18, 2019, 02:46:22 PM
Yep. A deal that gives Turkey everything they wanted in negotiations, according to the NATO representative. Can't refuse that.

Also, Turkey has already broken the ceasefire multiple times.

Art of the deal, baby.

You want to revisit Gallipoli?  The Turks are tough hombres.

Catalonia back on the menu, Catalexit!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBxGpWmAFds

Guess they didn't like their leaders given long prison sentences.

So ... how is President Trump's responsible for this?

If I were an Afghan who had been helping the US for 18 years I'd d be shitting in my pants right now waiting for this miserable Orange Fucktard to screw me over, too.

Anyone who scratches Trump's back can expect to get stabbed in theirs.

Quote from: Minimalist on October 18, 2019, 05:16:54 PM
If I were an Afghan who had been helping the US for 18 years I'd d be shitting in my pants right now waiting for this miserable Orange Fucktard to screw me over, too.

Happened when Obama withdrew from Iraq.  Some got immunity to come to the US.

Yesterday, the Rethugs in the House, joined with the Dems in condemning peace, in supporting the perpetual bipartisan policy of warmongery.  Can people see why I don't accept the either/or, that I condemn both parties as bloodthirsty vampires.

Will Catalonia make perpetual demonstrations, since Macron has been impotent against the Yellow Vests in France?

What about farmer demonstrations in the Netherlands?  Farmer demonstrations coming to Germany on Oct 22.  If Brexiteers are gyped by Nov 1, will a British version of Yellow Vests erupt?  How stable is Austria and Italy (where there was back door interference in national leadership by the EU, this past year?

Apparently, the ceasefire is broken. Turkish gov accusing YPG and they are accusing them back . I started to think noone has any idea what is really happening. I don't want to read or follow anything about this anymore.

Someone's making lots of money from all that chaos.

Quote from: Unbeliever on October 20, 2019, 05:33:38 PM
Someone's making lots of money from all that chaos.

And your goal?  To not make money.  Congratulations ;-)

Quote from: Baruch on October 20, 2019, 09:35:25 PM
And your goal?  To not make money.  Congratulations ;-)

It's actually. His life style is very different than the majority of the population on the planet.

 

Quote from: drunkenshoe on October 21, 2019, 02:18:18 AM
It's actually. His life style is very different than the majority of the population on the planet.

I was joking with our resident Jesus.  With biowarfare, the fact that paper money carries viruses, is a weapon.

It also has traces of cocaine, so it belongs to El Chapo?

Quote from: Unbeliever on October 21, 2019, 01:11:23 PM
It also has traces of cocaine, so it belongs to El Chapo?

If you had any money, I am sure El Chapo's son needs some ready cash, to pay for ammunition (given the recent shootout).

Same old, same old ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2oGHM87iKo

"Lira Jumps On Reports Of Turkish Deal With Russia Over Northern Syria "Safe Zone"" ... so basically a modus vivendi between Russia/Syria and Turkey.  Good news.  Basically 32 kilometer belt of Turkish occupation allowed into N Syria.

A real situation report ...

https://www.statista.com/chart/19580/territory-controlled-by-faction-in-syria/

And US presence in Syria or Iraq is dynamic (Iraq didn't want US-Syrian based troops pulled back into Iraq).  So much of what President Trump claimed is simply being ignored by the military.  Soft coup?

"Tulsi Gabbard Unleashes On Erdogan: "Radical Islamist Megalomaniac" Who Helps ISIS" ... the ME emperor has no clothes.  A turban maybe.

https://youtu.be/SNcJ79qPIg8

If you've never seen this from the old Gulf Wars days I recommend it. Its the story of, more or less, the fall of the Athenian Empire during the Peloponnesen war. It reminds me all too much of the current era.

Particularly relevant to the current issue is a speech by Pericles at 24:20 - 26:20. The Athenians have got themselves into a tricky bit defending their empire and colonies, Pericles here is trying to rally their spirits, arguing that whether it was right or not to get into the war, it would be more wrong to leave it now. Following his advise went, in the end, rather poorly for Athens.

I think it would be wise today for the United States to gradually pull back its extension, particularly into the middle east. Doing so will, obviously, be devastating to those who had believed in our eternal support, and most sentimentally for me the Kurds, who I respect on my personal prejudice of the goodness of all mountain folk. Most difficultly for America, like Athens before us, any move of extending or withdrawing is studdering as we are divided against ourselves in this matter as so many others. A skillful withdraw, that minimizes the calamity for those who had allied with us, and avoids making us vulnerable to catastrophic reversals in the process is difficult with an iron will, and almost beyond hope with the current state of our political mechanisms. Still, it is a better hope than to remain over extended until being forced to retreat by a reversal or defeat such as all great Empires eventually suffer.

@EmpJohnIV ... your are an optimist.  Also you are correct about Pericles.  Pericles didn't know yet (too early in history) about the "Sunk Cost Fallacy".  Pericles was the first Neo-Lib, just as the Spartans were Neo-Cons.  In their day, they were new!  Their only guide was that Herodotus had written the first Western history/anthropology.  But there was no time machine to advance 100 years, so that Thucydides could be read as a warning.

Classical history/culture is one of my favorites.  I hope it is for you also.  Athens had a good plan, except for the self-induced typhus outbreak that killed 25% of their population including Pericles.  A great "what might have been" had Pericles not been cut down so soon.  Cleon fortunately was cut down at Amphipolis.  And Alcibiades was never a good replacement for anyone.  The influence of Persian darics (archers) can't be underestimated either.  Basically Persia paid Greece to defeat itself.  This led to Macedon hegemony (leading ironically to Persian destruction) and Roman conquest.  I have a few sigloi (Persian silver coins), have only held a few darics, but never owned any!  Part of my pay for betraying Greece millennia ago ;-)

Did you see the Assassin's Creed Odyssey "A Tour of Athens" ?  I have been to Athens.  Their meticulous reconstruction thrilled me.  But ...

THIS IS SPARTA!

Empire always goes to pot. Athens might have rolled better luck with out the typhus outbreak, but the cause of their failure was hubris, typhus only connected the dots.

With American extension into the old world it is the most likely thing that some fluke will be remembered by history as our typhus, the fatal straw. But the cause will not be that straw, it will be the hubris of a ruling class that cannot comprehend the fact that sometimes you lose, and somethings there is zip nothing you can do about it, except maybe, just maybe, not putting chips down on the table.

With or with out access to the writings Thucydides, the wages of Empire remain the same. As to old saying goes 'those the gods would destroy, they first drive mad', taken literally of figuratively the results are the same. But there is variation in how harshly an Empire falls, or how soon after a critical point.

It is technically possible to stave off a most serious crisis by withdrawing intentionally before being forced, by caution and recognition that defeat can come.

I think it is still technically possible, but would entail the American middle class, and much of the upper class effectively losing their current access to global resources. So it is very unlikely to happen, unless a better populist manages to flop into power as the central powers lose legitimacy. Right now Tulsi is the closest to that in public life, and the Dems are screeming like gut shot banshees at every antiwar (they pronounce that pro-Russian) position.

@EmpJohnIV  I like Tulsi too!  And yes, the British Empire (given WW I and WW II) was able to gracefully decline thru 1975 (and then partly reversed by Thatcher) under the umbrella of the US Superpower.  Who will the the superpower that is friendly enough to enable our pullback?  China?

Yes, the final crisis is always invisible until too late.  And even then hubris plays a part.  Alcibiades warned the Athenians, that they were playing with Russian Roulette at Aegospotami.  But he was the ultimate "cry wolf" character.

Yes, infection takes advantage of prior systemic mistakes.  See Napoleon retreating from Moscow.  At least Napoleon had better military doctors than Pericles (who still had to rely as much on Asclepius as on Hippocrates).

It all comes down to sustained situational awareness.  This is very hard even for a Spartan oligarchy.  Like Argus guarding Zeus' paramour Io, after she was turned into a cow, Argus who had eyes all over his body so he never completely went to sleep, even he was distracted enough to lose track of his charge from Hera.  But himself being animorphed, he gave us the peacock!

Focusing my gaze closer to our present time the thing that really is so cussed about our situation is that a pretty big chunk of the American population, despite the messages they get from their handlers, are pretty well sick of the foreign war thing, but the war pigs got things so rigged that there is very little can be done about it, short of a proper crisis of legitimacy. Which, let's face it, would be a rough time for all involved.

The British Empire, and also 15th century China managed to pull a good reversal. As for getting cozy to a future super power, I don't see it, but pulling back the the near abroad and accepting a life style without access to middle east resources could be defensible. Maybe the best bet for an alliance would be to try to assemble a rag tag group of ol' Commonwealth countries into a block? That or offer to help Russia play counter weight to China. Frankly, China doesn't look appealing to cuddle up with in my eyes, very much the contrary.

Tulsi is about the only voice going that sounds sincere to me about a managed withdraw from our over extension. While her chances in 2020 resemble my chances in a HR department, she seems to be positioning herself to fill the power vacuum when the current blue team finishes its death spiral. What is really interesting about her is as a useful touchstone to see whose owned by the war pigs, by budget or by propaganda.

Quote from: EmpJohnIV on December 05, 2019, 11:25:11 AM
Focusing my gaze closer to our present time the thing that really is so cussed about our situation is that a pretty big chunk of the American population, despite the messages they get from their handlers, are pretty well sick of the foreign war thing, but the war pigs got things so rigged that there is very little can be done about it, short of a proper crisis of legitimacy. Which, let's face it, would be a rough time for all involved.

The British Empire, and also 15th century China managed to pull a good reversal. As for getting cozy to a future super power, I don't see it, but pulling back the the near abroad and accepting a life style without access to middle east resources could be defensible. Maybe the best bet for an alliance would be to try to assemble a rag tag group of ol' Commonwealth countries into a block? That or offer to help Russia play counter weight to China. Frankly, China doesn't look appealing to cuddle up with in my eyes, very much the contrary.

Tulsi is about the only voice going that sounds sincere to me about a managed withdraw from our over extension. While her chances in 2020 resemble my chances in a HR department, she seems to be positioning herself to fill the power vacuum when the current blue team finishes its death spiral. What is really interesting about her is as a useful touchstone to see whose owned by the war pigs, by budget or by propaganda.

War pigs?  Without WW II and the Cold War, then the War On Terror ... the US economy would be at 25% unemployment, just like 1938.  If we were all butter and no guns economically, we would drown in the margarine.  Part of the failing of the late Roman Empire was their failure, by lack of will or lack of strategy, to continue to fund their economy thru war slaves.  Even with the right strategy, you still have to execute well (particularly potential competing Emperors).

Yes, Tulsi, if she wants, will be interesting in 2024 vs say ... VP Pence.  Like the old song, you have to know when to "hold them" and when to "fold them".  If you have to fold a hand, there is always the next hand.

Russia is no fool, their alliance with China is opportunistic.  China under the Ming eunuchs isn't a good example of pull back, Japan under the Tokugawas is a much better example.  An Anglo fighting group won't work today.  NZ and Canada are completely demented.  GB is almost lost after 30 years of tacking away from Thatcherism.  Australia is interesting ... they are more like America in their FU attitude, but they are being Borged by the Chinese.  Can they avoid assimilation?

Yeah the managment classes in the Anglosphere are nuts, but lower down the pyrimid they still got some wits. Also you are ignoring the big tiger in the room, India.

The reason American folk let the masters of puppets yank them around is that the war machine brings in wealth. It's true, it is an addiction, and unless one has the gumption to go through the withdrawl it is terminal. My economic position, as a self employed producer of necessities, would be greatly improved if I didn't have to compete with slave labor over seas, and more generally if the dollar were weaker. But the managment class that wags the dog, and alot of inessential services would be in soup lines. Most likely the game will keep going until a couple carrier groups follow the Spanish Armada, and America becomes a total mess. But, the other choice is sitting there, untaken.

The other choice?  Becoming S Canada?  Good!  Then Black Face will be OK again ;-)

India?  The long term ally of Russia?  But China has succeeded where India has failed, in wooing Mother Russia.  India is phobic of any British derived country.  They would still prefer the Mughal Raj over the British one.  They forget they are rarely a unified or self governing country, except under foreign hegemony.