Atheistforums.com

Science Section => Science General Discussion => Topic started by: SoldierofFortune on August 25, 2019, 11:08:32 AM

Title: Discovery
Post by: SoldierofFortune on August 25, 2019, 11:08:32 AM
The old generations of the World discovered the earth.
And the posterity will discover the space.
We are just discovering the Internet :D

The human organism as its present form cannot spread to the space. It takes very very long time but human lifetime is limited.

The evolution has preferred the element carbon. But the artificial evolution prefers silicon and steel.

The only post-human form that can travel into long distances in space, must be free from its biological barriers.

I can think of a post-human whom its brain transferred into a chip, and as its brain's neo-cortex extends to a Cloud; He can discover the space.

I think there are post-humans but they are not open to the puclic of course. These post-humans whose intelligence is beyond our imagination, have already invent new Technologies. I think it must be so.


Title: Re: Discovery
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on August 25, 2019, 12:09:22 PM
You think the only way to get to the stars is to live out the trip?
Title: Re: Discovery
Post by: SoldierofFortune on August 25, 2019, 12:46:40 PM
You think the only way to get to the stars is to live out the trip?


I do not know any tech. to exceed the light speed, so it takes long time to reach the stars in long distances.
Human lifetime is not enough to do this trip.
Title: Re: Discovery
Post by: Mike Cl on August 25, 2019, 12:52:04 PM

I do not know any tech. to exceed the light speed, so it takes long time to reach the stars in long distances.
Human lifetime is not enough to do this trip.
You are right.  But generations can do it.  Just read some of Heinlein's books.
Title: Re: Discovery
Post by: Baruch on August 25, 2019, 01:06:04 PM
You are right.  But generations can do it.  Just read some of Heinlein's books.

Your genes will be corporate owned, to go on such a journey.  My Y chromosome has been on a 10,000 year journey already.

If I were an alien on the receiving end, I would treat your master species genes as germ warfare.  So the goal is human panspermia, where we infect the galaxy?
Title: Re: Discovery
Post by: Mike Cl on August 25, 2019, 01:16:03 PM
Your genes will be corporate owned, to go on such a journey.  My Y chromosome has been on a 10,000 year journey already.

If I were an alien on the receiving end, I would treat your master species genes as germ warfare.  So the goal is human panspermia, where we infect the galaxy?
All I can say is 'Why?'
Title: Re: Discovery
Post by: Baruch on August 25, 2019, 01:40:27 PM
All I can say is 'Why?'

All genes are equal.  Bubonic plague is an oppressed gene pool.  Not good identity politics (sarc).

If a Repubs becomes a millionaire, then all Repubs are millionaires?  If my team wins a game, then it is as if I was on the field?

So in what way, is sending your Y-chromosome to Alpha Centauri is a win for you?

This is why Voyager etc were carefully scrubbed for germs.  Bad enough we showed an etching of a naked man and woman.  No wonder Vygr wanted to exterminate the porn supporters.
Title: Re: Discovery
Post by: Mike Cl on August 25, 2019, 02:39:03 PM
All genes are equal.  Bubonic plague is an oppressed gene pool.  Not good identity politics (sarc).

If a Repubs becomes a millionaire, then all Repubs are millionaires?  If my team wins a game, then it is as if I was on the field?

So in what way, is sending your Y-chromosome to Alpha Centauri is a win for you?

This is why Voyager etc were carefully scrubbed for germs.  Bad enough we showed an etching of a naked man and woman.  No wonder Vygr wanted to exterminate the porn supporters.
Ramble on Ramble Man.  You shoot from the hips--well, not hips, but from the colon.  You simply let shit fly no matter what it is.  It's like you are a monkey randomly picking words from a dictionary and then flinging them out to the world. 

Did I ever say sending long distance ships out into space would do me any good?  I simply implied it was possible, at least in a Heinlein sci-fi way.  It seems do-able. 
Title: Re: Discovery
Post by: Baruch on August 25, 2019, 03:10:50 PM
Ramble on Ramble Man.  You shoot from the hips--well, not hips, but from the colon.  You simply let shit fly no matter what it is.  It's like you are a monkey randomly picking words from a dictionary and then flinging them out to the world. 

Did I ever say sending long distance ships out into space would do me any good?  I simply implied it was possible, at least in a Heinlein sci-fi way.  It seems do-able.

OK, before that, it was said, how about just communicating.  That I can see as worthwhile and doable.
Title: Re: Discovery
Post by: Mike Cl on August 25, 2019, 06:00:19 PM
OK, before that, it was said, how about just communicating.  That I can see as worthwhile and doable.
Title: Re: Discovery
Post by: Hydra009 on August 25, 2019, 06:22:32 PM
The human organism as its present form cannot spread to the space. It takes very very long time but human lifetime is limited.

The evolution has preferred the element carbon. But the artificial evolution prefers silicon and steel.

The only post-human form that can travel into long distances in space, must be free from its biological barriers.
*agrees in Adeptus Mechanicus*
Title: Re: Discovery
Post by: trdsf on August 26, 2019, 06:43:26 PM
You are right.  But generations can do it.  Just read some of Heinlein's books.
You know, given the opportunity to download myself (or my self) to silicon, I think I would.  It's all well and good for future generations to see other stars and other planets, but dammit, I want to see them for myself.
Title: Re: Discovery
Post by: Mike Cl on August 26, 2019, 08:15:38 PM
You know, given the opportunity to download myself (or my self) to silicon, I think I would.  It's all well and good for future generations to see other stars and other planets, but dammit, I want to see them for myself.
At this point in my life--yeah, I'd join you!
Title: Re: Discovery
Post by: Cavebear on August 27, 2019, 12:05:45 AM
Your genes will be corporate owned, to go on such a journey.  My Y chromosome has been on a 10,000 year journey already.

If I were an alien on the receiving end, I would treat your master species genes as germ warfare.  So the goal is human panspermia, where we infect the galaxy?

Only a 10,000 year journey?  Wikipedia offers sources saying it was about 166 million years ago.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y_chromosome
Title: Re: Discovery
Post by: Baruch on August 27, 2019, 02:10:55 AM
You know, given the opportunity to download myself (or my self) to silicon, I think I would.  It's all well and good for future generations to see other stars and other planets, but dammit, I want to see them for myself.

i look forward to you doing that to yourself ;-(  Just an atheist form of immortality.
Title: Re: Discovery
Post by: Baruch on August 27, 2019, 02:11:25 AM
Only a 10,000 year journey?  Wikipedia offers sources saying it was about 166 million years ago.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y_chromosome

Since last mutation, baby rug.
Title: Re: Discovery
Post by: Cavebear on August 27, 2019, 03:06:22 AM
i look forward to you doing that to yourself ;-(  Just an atheist form of immortality.

One more step in directed evolution...
Title: Re: Discovery
Post by: Baruch on August 27, 2019, 07:51:17 AM
One more step in directed evolution...

Random evolution of random moving atoms.
Title: Re: Discovery
Post by: Cavebear on August 28, 2019, 12:15:26 AM
Random evolution of random moving atoms.

That's an interesting idea.  I understand that evolution mostly works by genetic mutation, and I know that genes are complex molecules, but I don't really know what changes in a gene to cause a mutation.  I looked it up, of course, but biology is not my best subject.
Title: Re: Discovery
Post by: Baruch on August 28, 2019, 01:04:02 AM
That's an interesting idea.  I understand that evolution mostly works by genetic mutation, and I know that genes are complex molecules, but I don't really know what changes in a gene to cause a mutation.  I looked it up, of course, but biology is not my best subject.


Not all genes are expressed.  Only mutations in egg/sperm can be inherited.  Usually most gene mechanics happens in chunks (the expression).  Most mutations, when expressed, are harmful.  Rarely is novelty beneficial.  Meanwhile for most critters, the sex card shuffle continues.  For us, after 6 generations, most genes of most ancestors have been flushed away (1 chance in 46*64 or 1/2944) a low odds for any of the many chromosomes of all ancestors to still be in your genome).  You basically lose half of your ancestral genome every generation.  This is in addition to the randomization that occurs which is also beneficial.
Title: Re: Discovery
Post by: Cavebear on August 28, 2019, 01:22:19 AM

Not all genes are expressed.  Only mutations in egg/sperm can be inherited.  Usually most gene mechanics happens in chunks (the expression).  Most mutations, when expressed, are harmful.  Rarely is novelty beneficial.  Meanwhile for most critters, the sex card shuffle continues.  For us, after 6 generations, most genes of most ancestors have been flushed away (1 chance in 46*64 or 1/2944) a low odds for any of the many chromosomes of all ancestors to still be in your genome).  You basically lose half of your ancestral genome every generation.  This is in addition to the randomization that occurs which is also beneficial.

Thank you, and I always appreciate informative posts, but I didn't mean I was ignorant on the subject, just that I realized that I didn't know exactly how mutations occur biologically with chemicals or cosmic particles etc affecting genes.  I understand that genes are made of DNA combinations and DNA is made of molecules. And that molecules can be made of almost any combination of atoms.

What I was trying to ask (poorly, it seems) was what exactly happens in a gene that changes it?  When I search the question, most sites provide answers that are either too simplistic or too technical.
Title: Re: Discovery
Post by: Baruch on August 28, 2019, 01:46:52 AM
Thank you, and I always appreciate informative posts, but I didn't mean I was ignorant on the subject, just that I realized that I didn't know exactly how mutations occur biologically with chemicals or cosmic particles etc affecting genes.  I understand that genes are made of DNA combinations and DNA is made of molecules. And that molecules can be made of almost any combination of atoms.

What I was trying to ask (poorly, it seems) was what exactly happens in a gene that changes it?  When I search the question, most sites provide answers th at are either too simplistic or too technical.

Well, I had to have enough biology to do enough medicine, to understand medical administration.  But no longer.  Fortunately I did it long enough that I don't miss it.  For other readers …

Mutation happens because of chemical reactions that shouldn't be there (mutagen), radiation damage, or mechanical error (the cell mechanisms are mind boggling and can't be chance).  So basically, you have both nuclear and mitochondrial DNA.  The mitochondrial DNA is only from your mother's egg and it controls your basic metabolism.  Everything else happens because of the nuclear DNA (in particular, protein synthesis).  Half contributed by mom and half by dad.
Title: Re: Discovery
Post by: Cavebear on August 28, 2019, 02:01:36 AM
Well, I had to have enough biology to do enough medicine, to understand medical administration.  But no longer.  Fortunately I did it long enough that I don't miss it.  For other readers …

Mutation happens because of chemical reactions that shouldn't be there (mutagen), radiation damage, or mechanical error (the cell mechanisms are mind boggling and can't be chance).  So basically, you have both nuclear and mitochondrial DNA.  The mitochondrial DNA is only from your mother's egg and it controls your basic metabolism.  Everything else happens because of the nuclear DNA (in particular, protein synthesis).  Half contributed by mom and half by dad.

OK, AFTER I said I understood the basics, that was pretty insulting.

What I'm TRYING to get at is how and what happens when a molecule in DNA in a gene is altered.  I'm trying to understand the mechanics of the event.  I guess I will have to dig deeper into the websites I thought were too complex.

Title: Re: Discovery
Post by: Baruch on August 28, 2019, 02:08:09 AM
OK, AFTER I said I understood the basics, that was pretty insulting.

What I'm TRYING to get at is how and what happens when a molecule in DNA in a gene is altered.  I'm trying to understand the mechanics of the event.  I guess I will have to dig deeper into the websites I thought were too complex.
 
Not intended that way at all.  I wasn't assuming you knew less than you said.  But was trying to cover the whole audience.  Ego much?  Yes, you have a very health ego ;-)

Protein synthesis is complicated.  RNA, amino acids, all that.  The expression part at the gene level (via RNA) is way complicated.  Magic really.  Topology of coiled DNA (it doesn't unroll except at cell division).  Don't pay attention to what that molecule is doing,  the one you aren't paying attention to is sawing the lady chromosome in half.  So no, I don't have an easier way to summarize at THAT level.  I simplified because I had to.  PhD level shit.  One chromosome, unrolled is 2 inches long.  Coiled up like a phone cord from hell, it is tiny enough to fit in the nuclear part of a cell.  Crazy shit.  How many nuceotides is that?  About 250 million base pairs.  And there are 46 of them.
Title: Re: Discovery
Post by: Cavebear on August 28, 2019, 02:16:19 AM
Not intended that way at all.  I wasn't assuming you knew less than you said.  But was trying to cover the whole audience.  Ego much?  Yes, you have a very health ego ;-)

Protein synthesis is complicated.  RNA, amino acids, all that.  The expression part at the gene level (via RNA) is way complicated.  Magic really.  Topology of coiled DNA (it doesn't unroll except at cell division).  Don't pay attention to what that molecule is doing,  the one you aren't paying attention to is sawing the lady chromosome in half.  So no, I don't have an easier way to summarize at THAT level.  I simplified because I had to.  PhD level shit.

I'll try one more time.  It isn't the expression of genes that I'm trying to understand.  It isn't that genes cause mutations that I'm trying to understand.  What I'm trying to understand is what happens to the atoms or molecules in proteins in DNA in genes and causes a change.

Can anyone help me here?  Baruch is wandering around in 8th grade biology...
Title: Re: Discovery
Post by: Baruch on August 28, 2019, 02:33:42 AM
I'll try one more time.  It isn't the expression of genes that I'm trying to understand.  It isn't that genes cause mutations that I'm trying to understand.  What I'm trying to understand is what happens to the atoms or molecules in proteins in DNA in genes and causes a change.

Can anyone help me here?  Baruch is wandering around in 8th grade biology...


The old atoms aren't lost.  They are skipped (in terms of pairing when the whole DNA is there, R and L halves.  Now why a particular codon (a section of DNA in a chromosome that does something) does a particular thing, well that is complicated.  There is a lot of debate about Junk DNA.  But I think current thought is that there is no junk, just DNA we don't understand.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/04/180411131659.html

For the last 20 years, junk DNA was a meme with molecular biologists.  But it is wrong.  It controls the topology.

I had to listen to the Brandenberg Concertos to keep my brain at high functional level to express what I couldn't articulate as well.

Title: Re: Discovery
Post by: Cavebear on August 28, 2019, 02:42:38 AM

The old atoms aren't lost.  They are skipped (in terms of pairing when the whole DNA is there, R and L halves.  Now why a particular codon (a section of DNA in a chromosome that does something) does a particular thing, well that is complicated.  There is a lot of debate about Junk DNA.  But I think current thought is that there is no junk, just DNA we don't understand.

For the last 20 years, junk DNA was a meme with molecular biologists.  But it is wrong.  It controls the topology.

I had to listen to the Brandenberg Concertos to keep my brain at high functional level to express what I couldn't articulate as well.

WHAT DOES A FUCKING COSMIC RAY ACTUALLY DO THAT CHANGES DNA?
Title: Re: Discovery
Post by: Baruch on August 28, 2019, 03:19:17 AM
Breaks the hydrogen-bond between two opposing strands of DNA.  They should match, but they don't.

4 letter code.  On one strand you have ABCDs … on the other strand this has to match up with DCBA.  On that model ...

ABBCDABCD matches to DCCBADCBA … but no nuclear transformation of lead to gold …
ABBCDABCD now matches DCBADCBA … the first B remains unmatched.  Because it can.  And a new topology results.

Radiation damage from ingesting fallout is much worse.  Cancer and ruined eggs/sperm.
Title: Re: Discovery
Post by: Cavebear on August 28, 2019, 03:34:07 AM
Breaks the hydrogen-bond between two opposing strands of DNA. 

Thank you.  That's the kind of thing I was trying to understand.
Title: Re: Discovery
Post by: Baruch on August 28, 2019, 03:37:23 AM
Thank you.  That's the kind of thing I was trying to understand.

Glad you could handle the lack of graphics.  So much easier that way.

One of my irritating characteristics is ... never giving up.
Title: Re: Discovery
Post by: Cavebear on August 28, 2019, 03:42:53 AM
Glad you could handle the lack of graphics.  So much easier that way.

One of my irritating characteristics is ... never giving up.

Mine too.  I DID have to finally shout to make my question clear.
Title: Re: Discovery
Post by: Baruch on August 28, 2019, 03:47:01 AM
Mine too.  I DID have to finally shout to make my question clear.

Caps didn't help, but I didn't care.
Title: Re: Discovery
Post by: Cavebear on August 28, 2019, 03:49:40 AM
Caps didn't help, but I didn't care.

It got me the answer though.  You kept missing my actual question.