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Humanities Section => History General Discussion => Topic started by: Baruch on August 24, 2019, 10:03:46 PM

Title: Monarchial America ... a different history in 3 versions
Post by: Baruch on August 24, 2019, 10:03:46 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxnBveop5no

Robert E Lee could have been prince-consort to George Washington's adopted GGdaughter, Queen Mary, the GGdaughter of Martha Washington.

Then Robert E Lee's GGson would have been King Robert II when I was born, and his son King Robert III would be king now (but in our universe he is a HS athletics director).

And there are numerous other collateral branches related to George Washington who could have been involved in the succession.  Huzzah!
Title: Re: Monarchial America ... a different history in 3 versions
Post by: Cavebear on August 24, 2019, 10:16:42 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxnBveop5no

Robert E Lee could have been prince-consort to George Washington's adopted GGdaughter, Queen Mary, the GGdaughter of Martha Washington.

Then Robert E Lee's GGson would have been King Robert II when I was born, and his son King Robert III would be king now (but in our universe he is a HS athletics director).

And there are numerous other collateral branches related to George Washington who could have been involved in the succession.  Huzzah!

That's wonderful! "King Bushrod", now that's a name for the ages.  A good argument for no king...

All kingships fail from inbreeding.  But I once read a sci-fi book where the king was required to marry a commoner.  Interesting thought.
Title: Re: Monarchial America ... a different history in 3 versions
Post by: Baruch on August 24, 2019, 10:25:27 PM
So what is your New England in-breeding?
Title: Re: Monarchial America ... a different history in 3 versions
Post by: Cavebear on August 24, 2019, 11:58:43 PM
So what is your New England in-breeding?

New England Yankees from various places, French Candiens and some Pennsylvannia Deutch.  And according to a DNA test, some east and southwestern Asian traders who got lost...  LOL!
Title: Re: Monarchial America ... a different history in 3 versions
Post by: Baruch on August 25, 2019, 08:27:39 AM
New England Yankees from various places, French Candiens and some Pennsylvannia Deutch.  And according to a DNA test, some east and southwestern Asian traders who got lost...  LOL!

Right, inbred.
Title: Re: Monarchial America ... a different history in 3 versions
Post by: Cavebear on August 27, 2019, 12:53:24 AM
Right, inbred.

You should give some signal when you are being obviously joking.  Various English of many origins (Scaninavian, north and southern French, some Germans) and some Asians is not very inbred.
Title: Re: Monarchial America ... a different history in 3 versions
Post by: Baruch on August 27, 2019, 02:05:01 AM
You should give some signal when you are being obviously joking.  Various English of many origins (Scaninavian, north and southern French, some Germans) and some Asians is not very inbred.

After then got to New England.  Small community, no breeding with natives.  Hence Salem witch trials.
Title: Re: Monarchial America ... a different history in 3 versions
Post by: Cavebear on August 27, 2019, 02:11:30 AM
After then got to New England.  Small community, no breeding with natives.  Hence Salem witch trials.

Apparently, your claimed multitasking is not helping your brain as much as I hoped.  My ancestory mixing happened after the witch trials.Where were yours at the time.  Happily marrying inwards in local English villages where there were several John the 4ths who all looked the same at one time?
Title: Re: Monarchial America ... a different history in 3 versions
Post by: Baruch on August 27, 2019, 02:14:30 AM
Apparently, your claimed multitasking is not helping your brain as much as I hoped.  My ancestory mixing happened after the witch trials.Where were yours at the time.  Happily marrying inwards in local English villages where there were several John the 4ths who all looked the same at one time?

Once crazy, always crazy.  And village idiot phenomena started in English villages, before they got here.  Start with bad ingredients, get disaster.

The real cross breading came from Mongol and Hun incursions.
Title: Re: Monarchial America ... a different history in 3 versions
Post by: Cavebear on August 27, 2019, 02:18:13 AM
Once crazy, always crazy.  And village idiot phenomena started in English villages, before they got here.  Start with bad ingredients, get disaster.

The real cross breading came from Mongol and Hun incursions.

In eastern Europe yes.  In Western Europe, no. 
Title: Re: Monarchial America ... a different history in 3 versions
Post by: Baruch on August 27, 2019, 02:21:45 AM
In eastern Europe yes.  In Western Europe, no.

Miscegenation of 6 degrees of separation ... and Huns raped France.  Genghis has the most common father origin of anyone on Earth.  His descendants are everywhere.
Title: Re: Monarchial America ... a different history in 3 versions
Post by: Cavebear on August 27, 2019, 02:25:31 AM
Miscegenation of 6 degrees of separation ... and Huns raped France.  Genghis has the most common father origin of anyone on Earth.  His descendants are everywhere.

Well, I checked and quite frankly (no pun intended) the Huns did reach the boundaries of France.

"The Battle of the Catalaunian Plains (or Fields), also called the Battle of the Campus Mauriacus, Battle of Châlons, Battle of Troyes[10] or the Battle of Maurica, took place on June 20, 451 AD, between a coalition led by the Roman general Flavius Aetius and the Visigothic king Theodoric I against the Huns and their vassals commanded by their king Attila. It was one of the last major military operations of the Western Roman Empire, although Germanic foederati composed the majority of the coalition army. Whether the battle was strategically conclusive is disputed: the Romans possibly stopped the Huns' attempt to establish vassals in Roman Gaul. However, the Huns successfully looted and pillaged much of Gaul and crippled the military capacity of the Romans and Visigoths. The Hunnic Empire was later dismantled by a coalition of their Germanic vassals at the Battle of Nedao in 454. "

But they didn't do well...
Title: Re: Monarchial America ... a different history in 3 versions
Post by: Baruch on August 27, 2019, 02:27:45 AM
Well, I checked and quite frankly (no pun intended) the Huns did reach the boundaries of France.

"The Battle of the Catalaunian Plains (or Fields), also called the Battle of the Campus Mauriacus, Battle of Châlons, Battle of Troyes[10] or the Battle of Maurica, took place on June 20, 451 AD, between a coalition led by the Roman general Flavius Aetius and the Visigothic king Theodoric I against the Huns and their vassals commanded by their king Attila. It was one of the last major military operations of the Western Roman Empire, although Germanic foederati composed the majority of the coalition army. Whether the battle was strategically conclusive is disputed: the Romans possibly stopped the Huns' attempt to establish vassals in Roman Gaul. However, the Huns successfully looted and pillaged much of Gaul and crippled the military capacity of the Romans and Visigoths. The Hunnic Empire was later dismantled by a coalition of their Germanic vassals at the Battle of Nedao in 454. "

But they didn't do well...

Lucky us.  That and Charles Martel at Tours, 732 CE.  The Mongols got as far as Poland and Hungary.  Turks got to Vienna.

Attila died after one of his subsequent marriage ceremonies.  Too much party hardy.  Or his slave girl bride killed him.
Title: Re: Monarchial America ... a different history in 3 versions
Post by: Cavebear on August 27, 2019, 02:36:40 AM
Lucky us.  That and Charles Martel at Tours, 732 CE.  The Mongols got as far as Poland and Hungary.  Turks got to Vienna.

Attila died after one of his subsequent marriage ceremonies.  Too much party hardy.  Or his slave girl bride killed him.

When you mentioned Huns and Mongols, my recollection was that the Huns reached Northern Italy and the Huns reached Eastern Europe.  I should have checked further.  But I was generally right.  Thanks for the details though.
Title: Re: Monarchial America ... a different history in 3 versions
Post by: Baruch on August 27, 2019, 07:48:54 AM
When you mentioned Huns and Mongols, my recollection was that the Huns reached Northern Italy and the Huns reached Eastern Europe.  I should have checked further.  But I was generally right.  Thanks for the details though.

Yes, Attila also violated tourist visa in Rome Italy.  N Italy ravaged, then Rome/Pope bought him off, and he returned north from there.
Title: Re: Monarchial America ... a different history in 3 versions
Post by: Cavebear on August 28, 2019, 12:20:07 AM
Yes, Attila also violated tourist visa in Rome Italy.  N Italy ravaged, then Rome/Pope bought him off, and he returned north from there.

I do remember that.  Well, not personally, of course.
Title: Re: Monarchial America ... a different history in 3 versions
Post by: Baruch on August 28, 2019, 01:28:49 AM
I do remember that.  Well, not personally, of course.

I have just two Roman gold coins.  One from West, the other from East Roman Empire.  They survive because many thousands of them were offered up as tribute.  They are the least rare of Roman gold.  One to Alaric the Ostrogoth.  The other to Atilla.  Either could have passed thru the rough hands of Atilla.  The W Roman one, either Atilla or Alaric the Ostrogoth.  Both are like new, because Roman or Barbarian used them as savings, not as currency.  By the late Roman Empire, hyperinflation had taken hold (after 265 CE the Roman economy collapsed, with subsequent attempts to stabilize, that failed).  The solidus, the late Roman gold coin, was what your military, Roman or Barbarian auxiliary expected to be paid in (one per month).  Basically equal to 4 bushels of grain, the minimal cash required for a family to function for a month on non-barter goods.  At best, the economy was 1/2 monetized.  By the time of Atilla, everyone had gone back to barter until the Byzantines did temporarily achieve some stability.  Alaric and his Ostrogoths came to Rome first, by two generations.  Rome refused to pay up to their Auxiliaries.  The Goths worked for the Romans, and had fled to the Roman Empire to escape the Huns.  Atilla of course wanted it … because it was shiny.
Title: Re: Monarchial America ... a different history in 3 versions
Post by: Cavebear on August 28, 2019, 02:09:06 AM
I have just two Roman gold coins.  One from West, the other from East Roman Empire.  They survive because many thousands of them were offered up as tribute.  They are the least rare of Roman gold.  One to Alaric the Ostrogoth.  The other to Atilla.  Either could have passed thru the rough hands of Atilla.  The W Roman one, either Atilla or Alaric the Ostrogoth.  Both are like new, because Roman or Barbarian used them as savings, not as currency.  By the late Roman Empire, hyperinflation had taken hold (after 265 CE the Roman economy collapsed, with subsequent attempts to stabilize, that failed).  The solidus, the late Roman gold coin, was what your military, Roman or Barbarian auxiliary expected to be paid in (one per month).  Basically equal to 4 bushels of grain, the minimal cash required for a family to function for a month on non-barter goods.  At best, the economy was 1/2 monetized.  By the time of Atilla, everyone had gone back to barter until the Byzantines did temporarily achieve some stability.  Alaric and his Ostrogoths came to Rome first, by two generations.  Rome refused to pay up to their Auxiliaries.  The Goths worked for the Romans, and had fled to the Roman Empire to escape the Huns.  Atilla of course wanted it … because it was shiny.

Gold is weird.  It isn't very practical.  But rarity gives value.  I like my amber with several insects in it for the same reason.
Title: Re: Monarchial America ... a different history in 3 versions
Post by: Baruch on August 28, 2019, 02:25:52 AM
Gold is weird.  It isn't very practical.  But rarity gives value.  I like my amber with several insects in it for the same reason.


The coining gives it value.  One, because gold is real money, forever.  But because of government authority of it.  And because of numismatic art.  And because you can hold awesome history in your hand.  I have a silver denarius issued to 4th Legion, at the camp at Actium, by Mark Anthony/Cleopatra.  In emergency the army could act as its own mint.  Dual purpose military currency (we still issued some from WW II until Vietnam).  One side Antonian navy, the other side Antonian army.  Both failures.  And he had quite a few ships and legions, not just some.  People like Augustus say, it was because of wine and sexual depravity.  Un-Roman.  Think France 1940.
Title: Re: Monarchial America ... a different history in 3 versions
Post by: Cavebear on August 28, 2019, 02:37:20 AM

The coining gives it value.  One, because gold is real money, forever.  But because of government authority of it.  And because of numismatic art.  And because you can hold awesome history in your hand.  I have a silver denarius issued to 4th Legion, at the camp at Actium, by Mark Anthony/Cleopatra.  In emergency the army could act as its own mint.  Dual purpose military currency (we still issued some from WW II until Vietnam).  One side Antonian navy, the other side Antonian army.  Both failures.  And he had quite a few ships and legions, not just some.  People like Augustus say, it was because of wine and sexual depravity.  Un-Roman.  Think France 1940.

Gold has little actual value other than rarity.  And that it doesn't rust.  I read about people who rush to gold when the economy slows down.  And I wonder why.  What are they going  to do?  Eat it?  If times get hard, I would rather have 50 pounds of potatos and bean seeds than a pound of gold.
Title: Re: Monarchial America ... a different history in 3 versions
Post by: Baruch on August 28, 2019, 02:45:20 AM
Gold has little actual value other than rarity.  And that it doesn't rust.  I read about people who rush to gold when the economy slows down.  And I wonder why.  What are they going  to do?  Eat it?  If times get hard, I would rather have 50 pounds of potatos and bean seeds than a pound of gold.

It is a philia.  Others have phobia.  Irrational.  Yes, food is more useful.  But it spoils rapidly.  My ancient Greek or Roman gold is like new.

All banking systems, including BitCoin, are indirectly based on this irrationality about gold and on government authority.  Without government, you have only barter.

Gold is never a speculation or investment.  Anyone who says so is lying.  Gold is like Ft Knox.  It is what underlies what you use as currency (it never has been practical for currency, even 2500 years ago).  The original gold currency (electrum before that) had a basic unit of less than 1/2 troy oz, divided into 96 parts.  The smallest unit is tiny, a rice grain.  Hence precious metal is also weighed in "grains".  And that goes back further to Babylon.  Shekel is 180 grains of dried barley in weight.  A mina (~pound) is 60 shekels.  A talent is 60 minas, about 66 of our pounds.

A talent of silver is $13.5K today.  A talent of gold is $11.9 Million today.
Title: Re: Monarchial America ... a different history in 3 versions
Post by: Cavebear on August 28, 2019, 02:47:51 AM
It is a philia.  Others have phobia.  Irrational.  Yes, food is more useful.  But it spoils rapidly.  My ancient Greek or Roman gold is like new.

All banking systems, including BitCoin, are indirectly based on this irrationality about gold and on government authority.  Without government, you have only barter.

Gold is never a speculation or investment.  Anyone who says so is lying.  Gold is like Ft Knox.  It is what underlies what you use as currency (it never has been practical for currency, even 2500 years ago).  The original gold currency (electrum before that) had a basic unit of less than 1/2 troy oz, divided into 96 parts.  The smallest unit is tiny, a rice grain.  Hence precious metal is also weighed in "grains".  And that goes back further to Babylon.  Shekel is 180 grains of dried barley in weight.  A mina (~pound) is 60 shekels.  A talent is 60 minas, about 66 of our pounds.

And that's why we rationally went off the gold standard years ago?
Title: Re: Monarchial America ... a different history in 3 versions
Post by: Baruch on August 28, 2019, 03:01:08 AM
And that's why we rationally went off the gold standard years ago?


Governments lie of course.  We have never been on a true gold standard, not the US, not the British Empire.  It was attempted in the European cultural zone from about 1815-1914.  Thanks to American and S African gold supplies.  Otherwise it has always been too rare, except at exceptional periods of history.

Originally, the US had private currency, gold or silver brought to the mint by commerce, converted into coin, and returned to commerce (for a small fee).  That is American.  This was undermined by Alexander Hamilton and the banks, immediately.  And for good reason.  Only fiat currency could be used, and eventually electronic money (credit was electronic long before BitCoin).  The size of the economy doesn't let us do anything else.  At Bretton-Woods, 1944-1971, it was attempted to keep international trade on a gold standard (the primary point of the 1815-1914 era).  Local trade was almost always done in copper, silver and commercial script.  But the global economy won't permit this.  Force fitting to an international trade gold standard is like a wasp corset.  Churchill attempted this in 1925 and contributed to an immediate recession.  A Chinese/Russian attempt to an international trade gold standard (they have been moving that way for about 10 years) will be very deflationary.  Disastrous for the entire planet.

With electronic fiat, it is all about who controls the magic government spreadsheet.  Politicians in Moscow, Beijing, Berlin, Tokyo, Paris and Washington DC know this.  They want it to be like Lord of the Rings.  One spreadsheet to control the others, and in the darkness bind them.  This is why the public should never ever trust politicians of any country.  But as people, we are helpless cannon fodder anyway.  Trying to protect yourself in conventional or survivalist terms makes you feel better.  But it won't work.  Peak human.
Title: Re: Monarchial America ... a different history in 3 versions
Post by: Cavebear on August 31, 2019, 02:48:39 PM
Yes, Attila also violated tourist visa in Rome Italy.  N Italy ravaged, then Rome/Pope bought him off, and he returned north from there.

Yeah, when Central Asia isn't your focus, Huns and Mongols can be hard to distinguish.