Christianity started out as an apocalyptic religious sect having a stated goal of ruling the world. Although its theology involved a wrathful and violent god who was believed to be about to come down from the sky to punish and do away with all those who were not Christians and then place Christians in authority, in practice Christians sought power through converting people to their beliefs. Strength in numbers was the ultimate goal. We see the injunction to convert anybody and everybody in what has become known as the "Great Commission." This commandment appears in Matthew 28:19 (NRSV):
QuoteGo therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you.
Has The Great Commission done a lot of harm?The short
answer is yes, but allow me to elaborate.
A person converting to any religion can result in
social disruption if one's friends and family disapprove of the newly adopted faith, or if the newly adopted faith disapproves of one's friends and family. Some Christian sects like the Jehovah's Witnesses discourage individual Jehovah's Witnesses from socializing with those who are not Jehovah's Witnesses, and many non-Jehovah's Witnesses discourage people from joining the Jehovah's Witnesses.
Conversion to Christianity also has
adverse psychological consequences for the convert. Since Christ preached that all those who didn't believe him were doomed,
Christians must live in fear that unbelievers may be eternally damned. Those unbelievers might include loved ones. To avoid having people suffer eternal damnation, many Christians may try to convert people to "save" them. Christians may become very upset if the conversions are not forthcoming fearing that the persons who fail to convert will be eternally damned. I've personally experienced Christians getting very upset when they realize I'm an unbeliever who won't convert to Christianity.
The consequences of joining a Christian sect like this can be far more severe than social disruption and paranoia. Depending on how much hostility that sect endures,
people who convert to it place themselves in jeopardy--danger that can easily be avoided by never converting to that sect. Christians have been persecuted and even executed merely for being Christians, so conversion can be very harmful indeed.
There are other reasons why the Great Commission can be harmful, but for now it should be revealing to discuss
the culpability of Christ in issuing his injunction to convert all people. One might object to blaming Christ for the evils done in his name. He never meant to place anybody in harm's way, right?
I don't think so. According to many gospel passages, Christ was well aware of the dangers that converts to his sect would risk. He knew his followers would be hated (Matthew 10:22), would endure alienation from their families (Matthew 10:35), and would be executed (John 16:2).
For these reasons, I must conclude that
The Great Commission has done incalculable harm. If Christ did issue the command to convert people, then he is guilty of the harm it has done.[/quote]
Originally, Buddhism was he first evangelical faith. But it wasn't in a hurry, because you might need to reincarnate more than once to make progress.
Evangelical Judaism came about because of apocalypticism, that not all Jews would be saved in time, or in the notion that many Gentiles were spiritual Jews (not of the flesh). Basically Pauline Christianity. Paul was in a hurry, because the world would be destroyed soon. And Jerusalem and the Jewish people were destroyed, over the next century after his conversion experience.
With the destruction of Evangelical Judaism, the Gentile remnant of the Pauline Church survived 200 more years, until it was taken up and refashioned by Constantine.
300 years later, we get the next evangelical faith, Islam. Originally, Christianity forbade out-conversion. As did Islam and Judaism. The three Abrahamic faiths also prohibit unauthorized innovation.
Buddhism is still chill.
So does freedom to decide for yourself a bad thing? Some conversion is of that type, but not all. The conversion of King Clovis of the Franks, was the substitutionary conversion of all his subjects. Freedom of conscience is basically an American invention.
Do you purposefully overlook the OT where gawd tells the jews that they will rule over the gentiles? The jewish god promised domination hundreds of years before the goat herders suggested jebus did.
Quote from: Jagella on August 03, 2019, 09:33:56 AM
Strength in numbers was the ultimate goal.
Yeah, that's why so many religions today, including Christianity, are so set against abortion. It's a war of attrition, whichever religion can make or get the most adherents will be the one that can defeat all the others and take total global power. At least they believe that, in their corridors of power.
Quote from: Unbeliever on August 03, 2019, 02:18:46 PM
Yeah, that's why so many religions today, including Christianity, are so set against abortion.
and yet abortion didn't even make the top ten list....LOL... and xians openly ignore and mock the list as it is...one would think by now that ole god would smite us considering how much smiting he did when people thought the sky was water...
But God is love, according to the Bible, so all those people were smitten by love.
This site give us some idea of just how much smiting God was doing:
https://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2007/01/how-many-has-god-killed-complete-list.html
God will fuck you up:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=9&v=XLwtqwnI6ko
Quote from: Unbeliever on August 03, 2019, 02:18:46 PMYeah, that's why so many religions today, including Christianity, are so set against abortion. It's a war of attrition, whichever religion can make or get the most adherents will be the one that can defeat all the others and take total global power. At least they believe that, in their corridors of power.
That's a very interesting point. I recently read that many religions encourage their followers to have a lot of babies. Since it's difficult to convert people, a much easier way to swell the ranks of religions is by those religions encouraging procreation by current believers. Obviously, abortion needs to be discouraged because it would foul-up that effort to increase the numbers of religious believers.
Another possible reason for religions opposing abortion is that those religions have great love for children. If you believe that they do, then I can get you a hot date with a sexy woman from Nigeria by wiring her some money.
I think the religious war of attrition is why Mormons have such large families. Or maybe they just love children...
Quote from: Baruch on August 03, 2019, 11:43:03 AMSo does freedom to decide for yourself a bad thing?
People can convert to any religion they want. I just think like any major life-decision it should be an informed decision.
Quote from: Jagella on August 03, 2019, 07:58:33 PM
That's a very interesting point. I recently read that many religions encourage their followers to have a lot of babies. Since it's difficult to convert people, a much easier way to swell the ranks of religions is by those religions encouraging procreation by current believers.
A policy that I've seen preached by members of conflicting religions - we have to have more babies to match them, they pressure their flock in response, around and around we go. One wonders what they think will be the end result of everybody procreating like rabbits.
Perhaps they know there are responsible adults out there who aren't into a generational tug of war. For everyone's sake, please don't try to convert them!
Quote from: aitm on August 03, 2019, 02:15:48 PM
Do you purposefully overlook the OT where gawd tells the jews that they will rule over the gentiles? The jewish god promised domination hundreds of years before the goat herders suggested jebus did.
Revenge fantasy. Egyptians, Canaanites, Midianites etc ... were a rough neighborhood. Has nothing to do with modern people.
Quote from: Jagella on August 03, 2019, 07:58:33 PM
That's a very interesting point. I recently read that many religions encourage their followers to have a lot of babies. Since it's difficult to convert people, a much easier way to swell the ranks of religions is by those religions encouraging procreation by current believers. Obviously, abortion needs to be discouraged because it would foul-up that effort to increase the numbers of religious believers.
Another possible reason for religions opposing abortion is that those religions have great love for children. If you believe that they do, then I can get you a hot date with a sexy woman from Nigeria by wiring her some money.
A senior in Gaza, has 250 living descendants.
Quote from: Jagella on August 03, 2019, 08:02:43 PM
People can convert to any religion they want. I just think like any major life-decision it should be an informed decision.
In more places that is still illegal, or social taboo. In California not so much.
Quote from: Hydra009 on August 03, 2019, 08:07:18 PM
A policy that I've seen preached by members of conflicting religions - we have to have more babies to match them, they pressure their flock in response, around and around we go. One wonders what they think will be the end result of everybody procreating like rabbits.
Perhaps they know there are responsible adults out there who aren't into a generational tug of war. For everyone's sake, please don't try to convert them!
I have known both Catholic and Protestant families like that.
Quote from: Hydra009 on August 03, 2019, 08:07:18 PMPerhaps they know there are responsible adults out there who aren't into a generational tug of war. For everyone's sake, please don't try to convert them!
I never thought about that before. Christians belonging to the various sects prefer to increase their sect's numbers via procreation rather than to be so rude as to try to "steal" a convert belonging to another sect.
Do they know that to follow the gospel too closely can result in a lot of trouble?
Quote from: Baruch on August 03, 2019, 09:34:56 PM
Revenge fantasy. Egyptians, Canaanites, Midianites etc ... were a rough neighborhood. Has nothing to do with modern people.
Exactly. The writers of the babble wrote it for that day, that week, that month. The grandest reward in the OT is a flock of rams. Nothing in that piece of crap has anything to do with modern people. It was written by people who thought the sky was water, why give the rest any more value?
Quote from: aitm on August 04, 2019, 12:22:50 PM
Exactly. The writers of the babble wrote it for that day, that week, that month. The grandest reward in the OT is a flock of rams. Nothing in that piece of crap has anything to do with modern people. It was written by people who thought the sky was water, why give the rest any more value?
For various reasons, I suppose. For the mystics, I suppose it's the charm of ancient scrolls, written by unknown scribes practicing the dark arts long lost to modern men. For the average Joe, it's just indoctrination and lack of critical thinking. For the Pope, it's useful in protecting an empire.
This is a problem of administration and marketing imho. Not a problem of theology. Theology is the required mythical narrative, nothing more. Everything is about administration and military and how you work them.
Chirsitanity didn't start as anything or with any claim. There were always countless 'prophecies' of saviors and religion like beliefs promising to save people. It's human narrative, one day we will be saved. Humans are fascinated by making up ends for themselves. Good or bad. Oldest game. Think about these religions or beliefs like countless plants blossoming and dying but one sticking well and becoming a huge tree in time.
The Roman Empire. Roughly, as you all know 'the nobles' have all the land, power, money, production...etc everything, and they also have countless slaves and soldiers. There is no room, no place for any other people. Nobody is paying citizens. They don't have anything. Beliefs are generally pretty much like so called monotheist religions. Everybody is placed where they are by the gods. If you are slave or a master there is obviously a 'divine' reason for it.
But Christianity tells a different story. There is a so called 'equal chance' if you compare it with the chances in the ancient world. Clean slate and everfyone ends up in the same places. It's not a surprise it spread among slaves and soldiers. They are the majority. And it took hundreds of years. Then it arrived to a point that they had to sit down on a table and make it official in 4th century so they could administrate the masses and there is a need for reformation concerning the administration. And it is very clever for its day.
In short, if it didn't spread among the soldiers first, then slaves there wouldn't be a religion called Christianity. Constantine would pee himself if he was conscious in his sick bed. Or may be he did. The army. But he was needed to be known as a convert of course. That's how you provide order in the army. Did you guys know that they even forged an imperial decree -probably in 8th century- which claims Constantine left the Western parts of the empire and Rome to papacy? LOL
Well, hundreds of years this religion exists here and there in some forms and suddenly there is the story of this virgin woman appears from nowhere -no Christian before 4th century even heard of- giving brith to a man who is the god but actually isn't ...because he is his son, but then...blah blah. We also have a family now.
For example, disciples are very important from a marketing point in my opinion. Because contrary to the modern mind's look there should be a distance between him and the people doesn't matter how direct he preaches. There is a need of story tellers, witnesses. They make the whole thing very organic, realistic. Otherwise it doesn't work. How shall we know about him? How violently he was tortured and killed for us. They are also very human, ordinary people, but also have authority. They also lived through a lot you know.
It looks very simple to me. It works. Add as needed. The texts...well they are texts. Scholiasts alone probably added quite an amount of stuffs. Copied their own versions...they believed in it. May be misunderstood and copied wrongly, lol. They had little light.
Quote from: Jagella on August 04, 2019, 10:54:07 AM
I never thought about that before. Christians belonging to the various sects prefer to increase their sect's numbers via procreation rather than to be so rude as to try to "steal" a convert belonging to another sect.
Do they know that to follow the gospel too closely can result in a lot of trouble?
Yeah, as Robert G. Ingersoll said, "If a man would follow, today, the teachings of the Old Testament, he would be a criminal. If he would follow strictly the teachings of the New, he would be insane."
Quote from: Jagella on August 04, 2019, 10:54:07 AM
I never thought about that before. Christians belonging to the various sects prefer to increase their sect's numbers via procreation rather than to be so rude as to try to "steal" a convert belonging to another sect.
Do they know that to follow the gospel too closely can result in a lot of trouble?
New Testament is completely incompatible with the Roman Empire, let alone modern society. But Jesus didn't follow the procreation rule. That is Jewish. Jesus was a Buddhist evangelist from Kashmir ;-) As a fictional character, not as a real person. Like Hollywood "based on real events".
Quote from: aitm on August 04, 2019, 12:22:50 PM
Exactly. The writers of the babble wrote it for that day, that week, that month. The grandest reward in the OT is a flock of rams. Nothing in that piece of crap has anything to do with modern people. It was written by people who thought the sky was water, why give the rest any more value?
Shakespeare ... all about Queen Elizabeth and King James. Totally obsolete. Go attend a performance of "Piss Christ". Too hell with the Beatles, Acid Rock is real art.
Quote from: Unbeliever on August 04, 2019, 05:58:06 PM
Yeah, as Robert G. Ingersoll said, "If a man would follow, today, the teachings of the Old Testament, he would be a criminal. If he would follow strictly the teachings of the New, he would be insane."
Voltaire ... kill all the Jews and their Christian and Muslim followers? Modern antisemitism. Religion of Reason, in Paris, in Reign of Terror. With the followup from Nietzsche? Good stuff.