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The Debate Hall => Informal Debates => Topic started by: viocjit on July 05, 2019, 03:41:18 PM

Title: Euthanasia and Assisted Suicide
Post by: viocjit on July 05, 2019, 03:41:18 PM
What do you think about euthanasia and assisted suicide ?

Euthanasia is killing someone who want to die and who is able to ask his / her euthanasia.
It can also be kill someone who can't express himself / herself. In this situation the person did write he / she want to die in some situations if he / she can't express what does he / she wants.

Assisted suicide is help someone to commit a suicide.

In my country (France) euthanasia and assisted suicide is illegal.
I thinks it's problematic because I consider everybody have the right to die if he / she want to die because his / her life is unbearable for this individual. Law must change.

In the name of what authorities of many countries forbid to people to be euthanized if they want.
In the name of what authorities of many countries forbid to people to have someone to help them to commit a suicide if they want.

I want to live and I want than people have the right to die if they want.
As my choice is to live I don't understand in the name of what people who want to die can't be allowed to be killed or helped to finish theirs lives.
My choice is to live but people who don't want to live can't ask help to die.

I want to live and I have this right. But people who want to die haven't the right to be helped for that.
I consider it's an inequality. I'm in good health and I want to stay alive but those in bad health who don't want to stay alive are forced to stay alive.

I hope these questions will be debated in parliaments of countries in which it can be legalized.
Title: Re: Euthanasia and Assisted Suicide
Post by: Mike Cl on July 05, 2019, 07:23:04 PM
I agree with you.  I think it is my right to have an assisted suicide if I want.  But I do have a built-in solution.  I am an insulin taking diabetic, so whenever I want, I can take an accidental dose (two full vials aught to do it) at any time.
Title: Re: Euthanasia and Assisted Suicide
Post by: Unbeliever on July 05, 2019, 07:44:53 PM
I figure if worst comes to worse I can take a long swim off a short pier, maybe try to swim to China. I've heard that some doctors wear a bracelet that says "DO NOT RESCUCITATE" or "NO CODE" so they won't have to live as vegetables until the end.
Title: Re: Euthanasia and Assisted Suicide
Post by: aitm on July 05, 2019, 08:01:45 PM
self "euthanasia" is extremely easy and extremely available... and not messy at all. People forget about carbon monoxide, very available and easy and comfortable.....Helium...available at party stores near you.....and not messy....unless you quit too early...then yer a veggie....alcohol poisoning...easy and available but a tad bit of work....don't worry, you won't know about it, once you get past the taste......electricity....very easy and available but the initial is a jolt..but hey....you will never really feel it....in more moderate temps...hypothermia....a tad uncomfortable and your brain is with you till nearly the end so changing your mind is available if you can still function enough to crawl back in the house...practically any drug can be overdosed...very simply and more than likely you have plenty of time before someone shows up to ruin your party.

You can add your favorite if you please.
Title: Re: Euthanasia and Assisted Suicide
Post by: Unbeliever on July 05, 2019, 08:17:15 PM
I recall a guy who was looking for the least painful way of committing suicide, and came across a hypobaric chamber, where he did an experiment. He had someone else in there with him while they slowly decreased the oxygen level, and he became very giddy and unable to understand what to do to stop the process. The fellow in the chamber with him (who was wearing an oxygen mask) had to pull the lever for him.

He said afterward that he felt great the whole time he was in danger of death, and was having a very good time. He thought it would be among the best ways to commit suicide. Most of us don't have access to such a chamber, though, so we'd have to use an alternate method of achieving apoxia, the lack of oxygen.

Title: Re: Euthanasia and Assisted Suicide
Post by: Baruch on July 08, 2019, 03:30:29 PM
That hyperbaric chamber could become recreational, unless you take it to termination.  Similar to "plastic bag over head" games.

I am divided on this.  I don't approve of "state assisted" because the tendency of the "state" is to make things mandatory.
Title: Re: Euthanasia and Assisted Suicide
Post by: Unbeliever on July 08, 2019, 03:34:51 PM
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That hyperbaric chamber could become recreational, unless you take it to termination.  Similar to "plastic bag over head" games.

Not hyperbaric - hypobaric. There's a big difference.
Title: Re: Euthanasia and Assisted Suicide
Post by: Baruch on July 08, 2019, 03:38:59 PM
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Not hyperbaric - hypobaric. There's a big difference.

Lower pressure.
Title: Re: Euthanasia and Assisted Suicide
Post by: Cavebear on July 20, 2019, 04:29:08 AM
I plan to check out before I'm completely insane.  I won't be aware that I'm dead.
Title: Re: Euthanasia and Assisted Suicide
Post by: Baruch on July 20, 2019, 06:17:36 AM
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I plan to check out before I'm completely insane.  I won't be aware that I'm dead.

Too late.
Title: Re: Euthanasia and Assisted Suicide
Post by: Cavebear on July 20, 2019, 06:43:02 AM
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Too late.

Not while I can object...
Title: Re: Euthanasia and Assisted Suicide
Post by: Baruch on July 20, 2019, 11:27:46 AM
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Not while I can object...

With nationalized health insurance (like Canada) it is inevitable that exercise and dieting will become mandatory.  And you won't be allowed to die, because you would be messing up the government's investment in you.
Title: Re: Euthanasia and Assisted Suicide
Post by: Unbeliever on July 20, 2019, 01:52:10 PM
Have exercise and dieting become mandatory in Canada? I hadn't noticed that.
Title: Re: Euthanasia and Assisted Suicide
Post by: Baruch on July 20, 2019, 05:10:55 PM
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Have exercise and dieting become mandatory in Canada? I hadn't noticed that.

Justin Trudeau.  Worst dictator ever.
Title: Re: Euthanasia and Assisted Suicide
Post by: Cavebear on July 20, 2019, 06:23:48 PM
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Justin Trudeau.  Worst dictator ever.

Maybe because hi ISN'T one?
Title: Re: Euthanasia and Assisted Suicide
Post by: drunkenshoe on July 20, 2019, 06:49:09 PM
Basic human right. Actualy, suicide is basic human right. You don't need to be sick and dying in pain.
Title: Re: Euthanasia and Assisted Suicide
Post by: Cavebear on July 20, 2019, 06:56:59 PM
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Basic human right. Actualy, suicide is basic human right. You don't need to be sick and dying in pain.

Its my life; I should be able to check out anytime I decide...
Title: Re: Euthanasia and Assisted Suicide
Post by: Unbeliever on July 20, 2019, 07:03:20 PM
"You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave."


:-P
Title: Re: Euthanasia and Assisted Suicide
Post by: Cavebear on July 20, 2019, 07:07:06 PM
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"You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave."


:-P

Ah, The Hotel Beach Boys (private joke)...
Title: Re: Euthanasia and Assisted Suicide
Post by: drunkenshoe on July 20, 2019, 07:09:32 PM
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Its my life; I should be able to check out anytime I decide...

Yes, exactly.
Title: Re: Euthanasia and Assisted Suicide
Post by: Baruch on July 20, 2019, 09:15:30 PM
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Maybe because hi ISN'T one?

Yes he is, but so cuck it is hard to tell.
Title: Re: Euthanasia and Assisted Suicide
Post by: Baruch on July 20, 2019, 09:15:54 PM
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"You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave."


:-P

Like leaving the EU.
Title: Re: Euthanasia and Assisted Suicide
Post by: viocjit on July 21, 2019, 08:00:12 PM
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Basic human right. Actualy, suicide is basic human right. You don't need to be sick and dying in pain.

I don't know what is the situation where you live because I don't know where you live but in my country (France) it is not considered as a basic human right.
You can be legally being committed in a psychiatric facility if you try to suicide yourself in France or if you say you want to suicide yourself.
If you try to suicide yourself you will be considered as a person in "Péril imminent" (Imminent danger) and people in "Péril imminent" can be involuntary committed.

For those who can read French I advise them to read articles L3211-1 to L3251-6 and R3211-1 to R3225-1 of "Code de la santé publique" (Public Health Code) to know the basis about involuntary commitment in France.
Title: Re: Euthanasia and Assisted Suicide
Post by: Baruch on July 22, 2019, 03:51:46 AM
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I don't know what is the situation where you live because I don't know where you live but in my country (France) it is not considered as a basic human right.
You can be legally being committed in a psychiatric facility if you try to suicide yourself in France or if you say you want to suicide yourself.
If you try to suicide yourself you will be considered as a person in "Péril imminent" (Imminent danger) and people in "Péril imminent" can be involuntary committed.

For those who can read French I advise them to read articles L3211-1 to L3251-6 and R3211-1 to R3225-1 of "Code de la santé publique" (Public Health Code) to know the basis about involuntary commitment in France.

It is not legal in the US.  Isn't it legal in the Netherlands?

The logic, some people who commit suicide like to engage in behavior that endangers others, let alone the usual murder/suicide of a spouse.  So like drug use, it is a marginally sociopathic activity.
Title: Re: Euthanasia and Assisted Suicide
Post by: Cavebear on August 01, 2019, 08:59:11 AM
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I don't know what is the situation where you live because I don't know where you live but in my country (France) it is not considered as a basic human right.
You can be legally being committed in a psychiatric facility if you try to suicide yourself in France or if you say you want to suicide yourself.
If you try to suicide yourself you will be considered as a person in "Péril imminent" (Imminent danger) and people in "Péril imminent" can be involuntary committed.

For those who can read French I advise them to read articles L3211-1 to L3251-6 and R3211-1 to R3225-1 of "Code de la santé publique" (Public Health Code) to know the basis about involuntary commitment in France.

I did not know that and wouldn't have guessed France would decide that way.  Thank you for the explanation.   I learn new things every day here.
Title: Re: Euthanasia and Assisted Suicide
Post by: Mike Cl on August 01, 2019, 09:07:53 AM
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It is not legal in the US.  Isn't it legal in the Netherlands?

The logic, some people who commit suicide like to engage in behavior that endangers others, let alone the usual murder/suicide of a spouse.  So like drug use, it is a marginally sociopathic activity.
Actually it is legal in at least one state--Oregon.  Two doctors have to agree, and then it can be done legally.
Title: Re: Euthanasia and Assisted Suicide
Post by: Cavebear on August 01, 2019, 10:17:21 AM
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Actually it is legal in at least one state--Oregon.  Two doctors have to agree, and then it can be done legally.

I still think that is something I should be in control of.  Why does my State think it owns me?  What part of my decision of my existence is properly controlled by anyone else?
Title: Re: Euthanasia and Assisted Suicide
Post by: Mike Cl on August 01, 2019, 11:21:27 AM
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I still think that is something I should be in control of.  Why does my State think it owns me?  What part of my decision of my existence is properly controlled by anyone else?
I do agree with you on that.  But, at this time, 9 states allow assisted suicide.  That is a step forward.  There is a process attached to it by the state, but at least it is legal. 
Title: Re: Euthanasia and Assisted Suicide
Post by: Minimalist on August 01, 2019, 11:25:34 AM
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Justin Trudeau.  Worst dictator ever.


I'll trade them the Orange Turdfuhrer for Trudeau in a heartbeat.  I'll even throw in a future draft pick!
Title: Re: Euthanasia and Assisted Suicide
Post by: Cavebear on August 01, 2019, 11:27:13 AM
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I do agree with you on that.  But, at this time, 9 states allow assisted suicide.  That is a step forward.  There is a process attached to it by the state, but at least it is legal.

Nine is good.  50 better.  Worldwide best.  This is why I consider myself "progressive".  There are ideas that slowly advance by increments.  I want those kinds of ideas to advance.
Title: Re: Euthanasia and Assisted Suicide
Post by: Cavebear on August 01, 2019, 11:30:40 AM
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I'll trade them the Orange Turdfuhrer for Trudeau in a heartbeat.  I'll even throw in a future draft pick!

I'm not sure I would take Trudeau if there were options.  But I would take Teresa May or Angela Merkel (maybe).  Is Tony Blair still available?
Title: Re: Euthanasia and Assisted Suicide
Post by: Baruch on August 01, 2019, 03:25:45 PM
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I did not know that and wouldn't have guessed France would decide that way.  Thank you for the explanation.   I learn new things every day here.

Code Napoleon is "uncommon" law.
Title: Re: Euthanasia and Assisted Suicide
Post by: Baruch on August 01, 2019, 03:27:07 PM
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Nine is good.  50 better.  Worldwide best.  This is why I consider myself "progressive".  There are ideas that slowly advance by increments.  I want those kinds of ideas to advance.

I don't see, liberals all killing themselves, to be a progressive position at all.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login ... your love of political losers ... didn't you once say you were a supporter of John Anderson?
Title: Re: Euthanasia and Assisted Suicide
Post by: Cavebear on August 01, 2019, 03:40:05 PM
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Code Napoleon is "uncommon" law.

Ah, the French...  Not great legal experts.  Yes, Napoleon did well.  But he wasn't French.
Title: Re: Euthanasia and Assisted Suicide
Post by: Cavebear on August 01, 2019, 03:42:48 PM
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I don't see, liberals all killing themselves, to be a progressive position at all.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login ... your love of political losers ... didn't you once say you were a supporter of John Anderson?

Guilty as charged.  I was somewhat more righteous in my past than today.  Today, I want to drag (oops better not say that) see Trump handled as firmly as the law will allow. 
Title: Re: Euthanasia and Assisted Suicide
Post by: Unbeliever on August 01, 2019, 03:59:27 PM
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Ah, the French...  Not great legal experts.  Yes, Napoleon did well.  But he wasn't French.
The French may not be perfect, but they sure know how to kiss! LOL
Title: Re: Euthanasia and Assisted Suicide
Post by: Cavebear on August 01, 2019, 04:12:10 PM
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The French may not be perfect, but they sure know how to kiss! LOL

I'm old.  I admire the omelets and wines more these days...  Not that I buy French wines (the US ones are better).  But if I say that out loud, DeGualle will get upset and you know how THAT goes...
Title: Re: Euthanasia and Assisted Suicide
Post by: Unbeliever on August 01, 2019, 04:13:19 PM
Yeah, the gall of that guy! LOL
Title: Re: Euthanasia and Assisted Suicide
Post by: Cavebear on August 01, 2019, 04:45:21 PM
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Yeah, the gall of that guy! LOL

Do you remember the Vaughn Meader 'First Family' spoof of the Kennedys (I have the original LP)?  In one sketch, the White House is trying to save money when all the World leaders are there.  So they ordered sandwiches.  The West German Leader order a Western sandwich (I love the West).  The East German leader ordered an "Eastern" sandwich.  Upon learning there was no such sandwich, he demanded the eastern portion of the Western Sandwich.  Laughs all around...

But the highlight was DeGaulle demanding "Pheasant Under Glass" (pheasant with shallots - geez, I just realized I make this all the time with chicken).  And Kennedy says "that will be a chicken salad sandwich for the General".

I guess you had to be there...

And in case you know the album well...  "Ooda Wadda Woo"...
Title: Re: Euthanasia and Assisted Suicide
Post by: Unbeliever on August 01, 2019, 04:57:53 PM
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(pheasant with shallots - geez, I just realized I make this all the time with chicken).

Wow, pheasant under glass made with chicken - sounds like transubstantiation! LOL

Don't know the album, I'll have to check it out.
Title: Re: Euthanasia and Assisted Suicide
Post by: Cavebear on August 01, 2019, 05:02:50 PM
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Wow, pheasant under glass made with chicken - sounds like transubstantiation! LOL

Don't know the album, I'll have to check it out.

Birds of a feather flock together in the supermarket...  Just make sure it isn't Talpa En Glaze...
Title: Re: Euthanasia and Assisted Suicide
Post by: viocjit on August 01, 2019, 05:38:00 PM
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I still think that is something I should be in control of.  Why does my State think it owns me?  What part of my decision of my existence is properly controlled by anyone else?

There are not two world juridictions that have the same answers to judicial problematic.



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I do agree with you on that.  But, at this time, 9 states allow assisted suicide.  That is a step forward.  There is a process attached to it by the state, but at least it is legal.

Things take time but move slowly is better than don't move.



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Nine is good.  50 better.  Worldwide best.  This is why I consider myself "progressive".  There are ideas that slowly advance by increments.  I want those kinds of ideas to advance.

I agree with you !



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Code Napoleon is "uncommon" law.

For those who don't know I precise "Code Napoléon" is a synonymous of "Code civil des Français" (Civil code of French people) colloquially know as "Code civil" (Civil Code). We have the same civil code since 1804 but it was amended about 10,000 time or more.
I don't remember there was a year over the last decade without any modifications.

I liked you word game with "Common Law" and "Uncommon Law" because we have weird things compared to some others countries (Which place of the world haven't weird stuff in theirs laws ?) but you know certainly France is a country in which we apply "Civil law".

Civil law : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_law_(legal_system)
Common law : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_law
Comparaison of legal system between countries : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_national_legal_systems
Title: Re: Euthanasia and Assisted Suicide
Post by: Baruch on August 02, 2019, 03:48:35 AM
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Guilty as charged.  I was somewhat more righteous in my past than today.  Today, I want to drag (oops better not say that) see Trump handled as firmly as the law will allow.

Just like I feel about Bill, Hillary and the rest of the Dem traitors.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login ... "Code Napoleon" is an American term, and applies to the unique legal system of Louisiana.
Title: Re: Euthanasia and Assisted Suicide
Post by: viocjit on August 02, 2019, 10:39:51 AM
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Just like I feel about Bill, Hillary and the rest of the Dem traitors.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login ... "Code Napoleon" is an American term, and applies to the unique legal system of Louisiana.

In France you can see the term "Code Napoléon" used to speak about French civil code even if this term is used only in academic context.
Do you know there are 74 law codes in force in French Republic ? I don't know any countries with more legal codes than France.
I will make you a list of only ten of these.

1.Code civil (Civil Code)
2.Code de procédure civile (Procedural civil code)
3.Code pénal (Penal Code that is our criminal code)
4.Code de procédure pénale (Procedural penal code that is our criminal procedural code)
5.Code de justice administrative (Code of administrative justice)
6.Code de justice militaire (Military justice code)
7.Code de la santé publique (Public health code)
8.Code de la route (Code of the road that is our traffic code)
9.Code du sport (Sport code that is a code about organisation of sportive competitions , health of sportsmen and sportswomen , anti-doping policies etc...)
10.Code du tourisme (Tourism code that is about legislation and regulation about tourism)
Title: Re: Euthanasia and Assisted Suicide
Post by: Baruch on August 02, 2019, 12:22:46 PM
People disagree with me, but modern politics and bureaucracy were invented in France.
Title: Re: Euthanasia and Assisted Suicide
Post by: viocjit on August 04, 2019, 10:55:19 AM
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People disagree with me, but modern politics and bureaucracy were invented in France.

I think you're certainly right.
Title: Re: Euthanasia and Assisted Suicide
Post by: aileron on August 04, 2019, 06:46:00 PM
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I recall a guy who was looking for the least painful way of committing suicide, and came across a hypobaric chamber, where he did an experiment. He had someone else in there with him while they slowly decreased the oxygen level, and he became very giddy and unable to understand what to do to stop the process. The fellow in the chamber with him (who was wearing an oxygen mask) had to pull the lever for him.

He said afterward that he felt great the whole time he was in danger of death, and was having a very good time. He thought it would be among the best ways to commit suicide. Most of us don't have access to such a chamber, though, so we'd have to use an alternate method of achieving apoxia, the lack of oxygen.

This seems right to me. I've been in a hypobaric chamber a few times, once in flight school and then refresher training. The point is to learn the symptoms of hypoxia and grab the O2 mask (and importantly - turn it on, which I failed to do the first time) before you lose your wits or motor control.

The time I failed to turn on the O2 I grayed out until an instructor noticed and flipped the switch on my supply. I never felt the slightest pain or discomfort... That's the whole point of military aircrew needing this training to recognize the symptoms. No one else experienced pain, and maybe a quarter to a third showed signs of giddiness.
Title: Re: Euthanasia and Assisted Suicide
Post by: aileron on August 04, 2019, 06:51:29 PM
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self "euthanasia" is extremely easy and extremely available... and not messy at all. People forget about carbon monoxide, very available and easy and comfortable.....Helium...available at party stores near you.....and not messy....unless you quit too early...then yer a veggie

One of my acquaintances, true to the researcher he was in life, researched it and opted for the helium helmet.
Title: Re: Euthanasia and Assisted Suicide
Post by: Cavebear on August 05, 2019, 12:12:19 PM
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Just like I feel about Bill, Hillary and the rest of the Dem traitors.
 

Why is it that I refer to wishing Trump to be accountable to law and you refer to "Dem traitors"?  First, I say "Republicans" and you say "Dems", a puerile insult.  Unless you are engaging in the Brooklynese "Dese, Dem, Does".

Second, I don't consider Republicans "traitors".  I assume they usually believe what they say (there are always some game-players on both sides).  I disagree with most of them whole-heartedly, but I don't think of them as "traitors".  Yet Republicans consider members of the Democratic (try to even say that out loud to yourself) Party in all sorts of non-patriotic terms.  I love the US.

Title: Re: Euthanasia and Assisted Suicide
Post by: Baruch on August 05, 2019, 07:23:32 PM
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Why is it that I refer to wishing Trump to be accountable to law and you refer to "Dem traitors"?  First, I say "Republicans" and you say "Dems", a puerile insult.  Unless you are engaging in the Brooklynese "Dese, Dem, Does".

Second, I don't consider Republicans "traitors".  I assume they usually believe what they say (there are always some game-players on both sides).  I disagree with most of them whole-heartedly, but I don't think of them as "traitors".  Yet Republicans consider members of the Democratic (try to even say that out loud to yourself) Party in all sorts of non-patriotic terms.  I love the US.

Americans are criminals but don't agree on which crimes are OK.  Dems are the supporters of every 5th column since the American Revolution (which was Dems, Repubs were Tories)  The makes the Dems ... traitors.  The Republican are not a 5th column, they are the Establishment (post Revolution Tories).  They may be warmongers and plutocrats, but that is normal.  As I said before, Leftists seek to destroy their own country.  Rightists seek to destroy other people's countries.  I hate both.
Title: Re: Euthanasia and Assisted Suicide
Post by: Cavebear on August 08, 2019, 01:41:18 PM
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Americans are criminals but don't agree on which crimes are OK.  Dems are the supporters of every 5th column since the American Revolution (which was Dems, Repubs were Tories)  The makes the Dems ... traitors.  The Republican are not a 5th column, they are the Establishment (post Revolution Tories).  They may be warmongers and plutocrats, but that is normal.  As I said before, Leftists seek to destroy their own country.  Rightists seek to destroy other people's countries.  I hate both.

I stay up all night and the next day for THIS kind of nonsense?  I don't think so...
Title: Re: Euthanasia and Assisted Suicide
Post by: Baruch on August 08, 2019, 11:00:26 PM
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I stay up all night and the next day for THIS kind of nonsense?  I don't think so...

So tell us how wonderful it is when Americans lie, defraud and rob the whole world.  And that is the Best thing we do.