QuoteAtheists are more generous toward Christians than Christians are toward them, a new study has claimed.
Researchers at Ohio University asked participants to share monetary rewards with partners in a version of the “dictator gameâ€, in which one person had no power to affect the division of the bounty.
When atheists were told of their partner’s religious beliefs, they “behaved impartially toward ingroup and outgroup partners,†the study’s authors wrote in the Journal of Experimental Social Psychology.
However, “Christians consistently demonstrated an ingroup biasâ€.
Source (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/atheists-nicer-to-christians-religious-identity-known-study-research-ohio-university-a7944586.html)
Most religious people are sectarian. But I find the notion that atheists are kind to people they despise ... to be questionable.
We don't despise the people, we despise their silly delusion. And the fact that they want to make it the absolute law of the land.
This should be obvious to anyone who is or knows an atheist. We don't care about other peoples' beliefs nearly as much as Christians do. They elevate their belief system to the most important quality of their self-image. We put more importance on our human decency; the stuff that actually matters.
Quote from: Unbeliever on July 01, 2019, 01:27:57 PM
We don't despise the people, we despise their silly delusion. And the fact that they want to make it the absolute law of the land.
I don't believe you (because you are human, not because you are atheist).
Yes, LBGT want to make us all gay, by law. Atheists want to make us all atheist, by law. Jews want to convert all Gentiles (or kill them all). That is how people role. However minority positions are not likely to take hold. The majority positions, they do take hold, they are much more dangerous.
Quote from: Blackleaf on July 01, 2019, 01:51:11 PM
This should be obvious to anyone who is or knows an atheist. We don't care about other peoples' beliefs nearly as much as Christians do. They elevate their belief system to the most important quality of their self-image. We put more importance on our human decency; the stuff that actually matters.
I wish your virtue signaling wasn't delusion. That would take great faith in humanity.
Yes, theists are concerned about theological nonsense, and atheists are free of that particular BS. Yawn.
Quote from: Baruch on July 01, 2019, 01:52:38 PM
Yes, LBGT want to make us all gay, by law.
No, they don't.
QuoteAtheists want to make us all atheist, by law.
No, they don't.
QuoteJews want to convert all Gentiles (or kill them all).
No, they don't.
Quote from: Baruch on July 01, 2019, 01:52:38 PM
I don't believe you (because you are human, not because you are atheist).
Yes, LBGT want to make us all gay, by law. Atheists want to make us all atheist, by law. Jews want to convert all Gentiles (or kill them all). That is how people role. However minority positions are not likely to take hold. The majority positions, they do take hold, they are much more dangerous.
Once again, the babbling shit-fest strikes.
Quote from: Mike Cl on July 01, 2019, 02:50:30 PM
Once again, the babbling shit-fest strikes.
Rhetoric isn't you guy's style (snort).
Quote from: Baruch on July 01, 2019, 03:20:28 PM
Rhetoric isn't you guy's style (snort).
What you spew is not rhetoric but just plain made up shit.
Quote from: Mike Cl on July 01, 2019, 03:57:08 PM
What you spew is not rhetoric but just plain made up shit.
As opposed to the fancy made up shit.
;-)
Quote from: Unbeliever on July 01, 2019, 03:59:45 PM
As opposed to the fancy made up shit.
;-)
Exactly ... mine is fancier ;-)
Maybe MikeCL can get comedy lessons from the Good Humor Man?
Where'd you get your comedy lessons, from the Unknown Comic?
;-P
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BBZVQ4zBcU
Quote from: Baruch on July 01, 2019, 01:03:58 PM
Most religious people are sectarian. But I find the notion that atheists are kind to people they despise ... to be questionable.
I really had the impression that you were much more intelligent, and knowledgeable concerning the atheist position than this.
Bigotry much?
I just started posting here after a break, and I don't remember you being so intolerant.
I do not despise individual Christians (or other theists). Hell, my entire family are theists of various stripes, and I don't despise them, I love them, enjoy their company, respect most of them; except with regards to their silly theistic beliefs.
I have several very close Christian friends, (that I don't see nearly enough), but every year we all go on a long surfing trip to various countries (this year it will be Costa Rica). I would risk my life to save any of them from drowning. Wouldn't even think twice about it.
You do understand that it is possible to despise an ideology, without despising individuals, right?
Every individual human is worthy of my effort, to base my opinion of them solely on their actions, not based on their religion.
Quote from: Baruch on July 01, 2019, 04:04:28 PM
Exactly ... mine is fancier ;-)
Maybe MikeCL can get comedy lessons from the Good Humor Man?
Unlike the Unbeliever, I don't find your spewed shit funny. I don't think it is comedy, but unbridled hate. You seem so embittered with life that I doubt you laugh at anything. Even the god you invented is evil and cruel and you don't seem to mind that. You are clearly not the same Baruch that I had really wanted to spend an afternoon sharing coffee and ideas with 10/15 years ago. I am very sorry for what whatever it was that you have lived through that has turned you so bitter and hateful.
Quote from: Mike Cl on July 01, 2019, 05:05:41 PM
You are clearly not the same Baruch that I had really wanted to spend an afternoon sharing coffee and ideas with 10/15 years ago.
Glad to see it's not just me that noticed a change in Baruch.
He used to be more open minded, interesting to talk to, and tolerant.
His description of himself, "Freethinking theist", no longer seems accurate. Time to modify that, Baruch.
People are tribalistic, big whoop.
Quote from: Simon Moon on July 01, 2019, 05:40:46 PM
Glad to see it I'm not just me that noticed a change in Baruch.
He used to be more open minded, interesting to talk to, and tolerant.
His description of himself, "Freethinking theist", no longer seems accurate. Time to modify that, Baruch.
It is interesting that you noticed that too. He is posting as a different person these days. I wonder why the change.
Well, he's retired now, so maybe he's just letting it all hang out.
Quote from: Simon Moon on July 01, 2019, 04:42:29 PM
I really had the impression that you were much more intelligent, and knowledgeable concerning the atheist position than this.
Bigotry much?
I just started posting here after a break, and I don't remember you being so intolerant.
I do not despise individual Christians (or other theists). Hell, my entire family are theists of various stripes, and I don't despise them, I love them, enjoy their company, respect most of them; except with regards to their silly theistic beliefs.
I have several very close Christian friends, (that I don't see nearly enough), but every year we all go on a long surfing trip to various countries (this year it will be Costa Rica). I would risk my life to save any of them from drowning. Wouldn't even think twice about it.
You do understand that it is possible to despise an ideology, without despising individuals, right?
Every individual human is worthy of my effort, to base my opinion of them solely on their actions, not based on their religion.
Some of you are "triggered" ... not my intension. But I will not join in virtue signaling any group. It isn't self aware, isn't honest. And not my intent to do more than "note" any individual behavior. But with collectivists, if you denigrate their tribe, they go all "red ant" on you.
Quote from: Mike Cl on July 01, 2019, 05:05:41 PM
Unlike the Unbeliever, I don't find your spewed shit funny. I don't think it is comedy, but unbridled hate. You seem so embittered with life that I doubt you laugh at anything. Even the god you invented is evil and cruel and you don't seem to mind that. You are clearly not the same Baruch that I had really wanted to spend an afternoon sharing coffee and ideas with 10/15 years ago. I am very sorry for what whatever it was that you have lived through that has turned you so bitter and hateful.
Sorry you react that way, but not the first time. And yes, we have had many many exchanges, not all good. So why coffee?
And at times (not necessarily now) your bitter anger comes out to play. Which worries me.
I have posted some good historical stuff this past week in response to Jagella. I hope you enjoyed it.
Quote from: Simon Moon on July 01, 2019, 05:40:46 PM
Glad to see it's not just me that noticed a change in Baruch.
He used to be more open minded, interesting to talk to, and tolerant.
His description of himself, "Freethinking theist", no longer seems accurate. Time to modify that, Baruch.
OK OK ... atheists/gays lie sometimes. Wasn't implying they lie all the time ... that would be bigotry.
Democrats on the other hand, are correct only randomly and accidentally ;-) Like a broken clock.
Quote from: Sal1981 on July 01, 2019, 05:57:46 PM
People are tribalistic, big whoop.
Some people find that too much to mention ...
Usually their tribalism appears in politics. And it does.
Extremists (including atheist or gay types) are ... extreme.
Not that I mind the OP, in the sense that ... it would be nice if everyone was nicer to each other. But I don't expect it ever.
Quote from: Unbeliever on July 01, 2019, 07:15:56 PM
Well, he's retired now, so maybe he's just letting it all hang out.
Sorry. That is why I keep my PC camera off. Don't want to scare the children ...
Quote from: Mike Cl on July 01, 2019, 07:14:25 PM
It is interesting that you noticed that too. He is posting as a different person these days. I wonder why the change.
No change. But I accept that details and circumstances change post to post. I have always warned admirers not to idolize me.
Quote from: Baruch on July 01, 2019, 09:31:50 PM
Sorry you react that way, but not the first time. And yes, we have had many many exchanges, not all good. So why coffee?
And at times (not necessarily now) your bitter anger comes out to play. Which worries me.
I have posted some good historical stuff this past week in response to Jagella. I hope you enjoyed it.
Why coffee? I'm not fond of beer. And swapping ideas and ideals in a coffee shop or something like it, was an attractive thought. Bitter anger from me? I suppose so. I do feel bitter about 'my' country right about now. It is nothing like what I'd hoped it would be at this point in my life. Bitter toward you? Not really, yet. But frustrated by your current posting I will admit to. Or maybe, I just misjudged you from the get go. And worried too, about your mental (emotional, really) state of mind. You simply seem bitter about everything.
Yes, I did enjoy your historical postings. When you post that material it is always a good read. I do appreciate the time and effort you expended to gain that historical knowledge. I do not expect you (or anyone) to agree with me all the time--or even any time. But I do enjoy a good discussion and you were able to provide them. But I must admit, recently I don't even read your bitter sound bytes you have been spewing out lately.
Quote from: Baruch on July 01, 2019, 09:36:46 PM
No change. But I accept that details and circumstances change post to post. I have always warned admirers not to idolize me.
Yes, change. And I'm not talking about change from post to post. I'm talking about change over months. You have 'always' warned admirers??? Really? :))))))) Just don't step on me too often as I grovel at your feet!
Quote from: Mike Cl on July 01, 2019, 09:53:20 PM
Yes, change. And I'm not talking about change from post to post. I'm talking about change over months. You have 'always' warned admirers??? Really? :))))))) Just don't step on me too often as I grovel at your feet!
Really. I am not the bot you are looking for ;-) Jewish mind tricks.
I was much more bitter in 2010-2012 ... before I ever posted here. The first two years posting here my tongue was too sharp. Mostly in mourning or the last two years. Most recently a complete change of life into retirement. I look at retirement in Hindu terms. I have already been a working forest dweller for 16 years, now turning into non-working forest dweller. Not ready for final renunciation. That has to be earned in my next phase of fictional biography, meditating in the American equivalent of Dune, inducing visions of giant worms.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdsTABz2PaM
My jihad is over. Time to turn things over to the next generation. In this version of Children of Dune, Muad'Dib dies speaking truth to power, the power he had preternaturally created.
Soon enough I'll join the Anasazi (ancient ones) .. at first a legendary name, then a nameless legend, existing in the nuances of human archetypes.
To the south ... Chaco pueblo ruins
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0h9WlozwiTQ
To the north ... San Juan mountains
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FshovkI88QE
Reality is just a story within a story within ...
With countless reproductions ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3bfYgzIctI
Preview ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZXB4aAIJcw
Little Dune ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UDssG7XlgY
Crestone is a sietch ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZ2QyDZ78jA
Close encounters of a synchronicity kind ...
In a national forest in the same general area, edge of San Louis valley ... my dad was camping alone in the 1970s. My mother and I were attending a youth convention in Alamosa ... my dad was all alone at night, at the campground, with his usual pit fire ... when a nearby ancient tree decided to spontaneously fall over, while he was watching it. He thought the experience was meaningful. It answered the age old question of ... "if a tree falls in a forest and nobody is there to hear it ...".
Quote from: Unbeliever on July 01, 2019, 01:27:57 PM
We don't despise the people, we despise their silly delusion.
Kind of like love the sinner hate the sin, really
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on July 02, 2019, 01:12:17 AM
Kind of like love the sinner hate the sin, really
So Christian of y'all ;-) Maybe post-Christian culture isn't so bad after all. ;-))
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on July 02, 2019, 01:12:17 AM
Kind of like love the sinner hate the sin, really
Except when Christians say that, they're only pretending not to be bigoted towards the outgroups they call "sinners."
"Oh, I don't hate gay people. I just hate their lifestyle."
Sure.
Quote from: Blackleaf on July 02, 2019, 03:29:36 AM
Except when Christians say that, they're only pretending not to be bigoted towards the outgroups they call "sinners."
"Oh, I don't hate gay people. I just hate their lifestyle."
Sure.
I totally agree. But corruption isn't limited to Christians. Per "original sin" all humans are corrupt beyond recovery. And being non-Christian, I don't see Jesus as the solution to corruption.
1. All humans are born innocent, but are corrupted by X
2. All humans are born corrupt, but can be reformed by Y
3. Innocent/corrupt is a false dichotomy
Quote from: Baruch on July 01, 2019, 09:35:09 PM
Some people find that too much to mention ...
Usually their tribalism appears in politics. And it does.
Extremists (including atheist or gay types) are ... extreme.
Not that I mind the OP, in the sense that ... it would be nice if everyone was nicer to each other. But I don't expect it ever.
The reason that atheists are, as mentioned in OP, nicer to theists than the reverse is because of stigma, more than exclusively tribalism, IMO. Atheists are still thought of as immoral, or lacking a moral compass, where theists think they're right because of their belief. That, and the fact that atheists come from all stripes of life, while theists are sectioned into various factions.
If you did the same research in the political spectrum, I'm pretty positive that, thanks to stigma going both ways, that the tribalism would be the same in both left/right. But I don't know that for sure, so I'll withhold judgement until that study is made or made aware of.
Quote from: Sal1981 on July 02, 2019, 11:19:09 AM
The reason that atheists are, as mentioned in OP, nicer to theists than the reverse is because of stigma, more than exclusively tribalism, IMO. Atheists are still thought of as immoral, or lacking a moral compass, where theists think they're right because of their belief. That, and the fact that atheists come from all stripes of life, while theists are sectioned into various factions.
If you did the same research in the political spectrum, I'm pretty positive that, thanks to stigma going both ways, that the tribalism would be the same in both left/right. But I don't know that for sure, so I'll withhold judgement until that study is made or made aware of.
Stigma in certain places, under certain circumstances. For example, if you are a Green protestor, who shows up uninvited to a private government dinner meeting, where the Chancellor of the Exchequer is present (who is #2 with the British nuclear football) you might be forcibly ejected.
I would hope that in most liberal Western countries (not all) and in most urban communities (rural people are more conservative) ... if you didn't advertise you are gay or atheist ... you are probably safe from assault. On the other hand, as a Jewish person, if I went to Mecca, wearing a kippa, they would be very unhappy with me.
One problem for exhibitionists (those few who are) ... nobody wants to see you "do your thing" in public. Because it is antisocial and psychopathic. Do it in private all you want. Gay pride parade once a year, not a real problem.
Quote from: Baruch on July 01, 2019, 09:36:46 PM
I have always warned admirers not to idolize me.
I doubt there's much danger of that...
Quote from: Baruch on July 02, 2019, 03:46:46 AM
I totally agree. But corruption isn't limited to Christians. Per "original sin" all humans are corrupt beyond recovery. And being non-Christian, I don't see Jesus as the solution to corruption.
1. All humans are born innocent, but are corrupted by X
2. All humans are born corrupt, but can be reformed by Y
3. Innocent/corrupt is a false dichotomy
Your problem is you see all weakness as equal. Nobody claimed atheists were perfect, yet here you are disputing a scientifically supported statement as "virtue signaling" because we're not all 100% benevolent. There are clear differences between people of different populations when categorized by certain traits. That's what psychology, a topic you pretend to be an expert on, is all about.
Fact is, Christians tend to assume religiousness = morality. They assume atheists are evil, despite their actions, because of that. They have, ironically, treated us in evil ways because of that assumption. Some of them even believe that good works are useless, because we're all flawed (a sentiment you appear not to have outgrown). Atheists, however, give no importance to religion. We might see the religious as more gullible, but we don't assume moral worth based on religiousness. We're more likely to judge people based on their actions. If you don't see that, you're just in denial.
Quote from: Simon Moon on July 01, 2019, 05:40:46 PM
Glad to see it's not just me that noticed a change in Baruch.
He used to be more open minded, interesting to talk to, and tolerant.
His description of himself, "Freethinking theist", no longer seems accurate. Time to modify that, Baruch.
I haven't been here very long compared to you, Mike, and the others, but I noticed a change since I got here. I'm not sure what it is, exactly. He just seems different somehow. I think he might have got caught up in that anti-SJW Alt-Right movement that suddenly turned half of the atheists on the internet into idiots.
Quote from: Blackleaf on July 02, 2019, 04:07:18 PM
Your problem is you see all weakness as equal. Nobody claimed atheists were perfect, yet here you are disputing a scientifically supported statement as "virtue signaling" because we're not all 100% benevolent. There are clear differences between people of different populations when categorized by certain traits. That's what psychology, a topic you pretend to be an expert on, is all about.
Fact is, Christians tend to assume religiousness = morality. They assume atheists are evil, despite their actions, because of that. They have, ironically, treated us in evil ways because of that assumption. Some of them even believe that good works are useless, because we're all flawed (a sentiment you appear not to have outgrown). Atheists, however, give no importance to religion. We might see the religious as more gullible, but we don't assume moral worth based on religiousness. We're more likely to judge people based on their actions. If you don't see that, you're just in denial.
Please define corruption. Not all sins are the same, but atheists have none. And all claims (even religious ones) for morality, are false. There is no objective morality. There is only "I like" or "I dislike".
I am not claiming that Christians are virtuous. Far from it. I don't even think Jewish people are virtuous.
No, not an expert on psychology. I just refuse to ignore it.
Quote from: Blackleaf on July 02, 2019, 04:14:36 PM
I haven't been here very long compared to you, Mike, and the others, but I noticed a change since I got here. I'm not sure what it is, exactly. He just seems different somehow. I think he might have got caught up in that anti-SJW Alt-Right movement that suddenly turned half of the atheists on the internet into idiots.
I will only take credit for my own stupidity. I can't take credit for other people being stupid, whether atheist or SJW or some weird combo.
The world had changed over the last 4 years, and I have changed with it.
Quote from: Baruch on July 04, 2019, 04:27:37 AM
Please define corruption. Not all sins are the same, but atheists have none. And all claims (even religious ones) for morality, are false. There is no objective morality. There is only "I like" or "I dislike".
Is 'false' really the propper word ik this situation?
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on July 04, 2019, 07:03:18 AM
Is 'false' really the propper word ik this situation?
Pretentious monkey shines. Even if we share many of the same likes and dislikes.
I try never to be nice to xhristards. They always take it as a sign of weakness.
Quote from: Minimalist on July 05, 2019, 01:52:44 AM
I try never to be nice to xhristards. They always take it as a sign of weakness.
Alpha male then? What country will you invade next?
Quote from: Baruch on July 01, 2019, 01:52:38 PM
I don't believe you (because you are human, not because you are atheist).
Yes, LBGT want to make us all gay, by law. Atheists want to make us all atheist, by law. Jews want to convert all Gentiles (or kill them all). That is how people role. However minority positions are not likely to take hold. The majority positions, they do take hold, they are much more dangerous.
What you are describing is a militant atheist
Quote from: Draconic Aiur on July 05, 2019, 02:28:56 AM
What you are describing is a militant atheist
None of those here best I can tell.
Quote from: Baruch on July 04, 2019, 04:27:37 AM
Please define corruption. Not all sins are the same, but atheists have none. And all claims (even religious ones) for morality, are false. There is no objective morality. There is only "I like" or "I dislike".
I am not claiming that Christians are virtuous. Far from it. I don't even think Jewish people are virtuous.
Not sure what any of this has to do with how kindly atheists and theists treat each other.
Quote from: Blackleaf on July 05, 2019, 04:22:28 PM
Not sure what any of this has to do with how kindly atheists and theists treat each other.
It has everything to do with it. We are not kind, none of us.
Quote from: Baruch on July 04, 2019, 04:34:00 AM
I will only take credit for my own stupidity. I can't take credit for other people being stupid, whether atheist or SJW or some weird combo.
The world had changed over the last 4 years, and I have changed with it.
I know you don't commit fully to any ideology. That's one thing I've always liked about you. It's good to be skeptical of everyone, especially those you agree with. But you see both the Left and the Right as equal, and so have ironically assigned too much credibility to the Right. When the status quo moved back to the Right, in your attempts to remain neutral, you moved with it.
Quote from: Baruch on July 05, 2019, 04:24:24 PM
It has everything to do with it. We are not kind, none of us.
There you go with that all or nothing shit again.
Quote from: Blackleaf on July 05, 2019, 04:31:37 PM
I know you don't commit fully to any ideology. That's one thing I've always liked about you. It's good to be skeptical of everyone, especially those you agree with. But you see both the Left and the Right as equal, and so have ironically assigned too much credibility to the Right. When the status quo moved back to the Right, in your attempts to remain neutral, you moved with it.
I worked with the military for 32 years. I was never neutral. But I try not to express my bias as much as it actually is. I really don't like bigotry or hypocrisy. But on the other hand, I have to try to grow into sympathy for human imperfection.
The status quo is always Right. Progressivism is a political ideology, a delusion. It has never moved Left, except temporarily. Liberals think they can maintain continous revolution. Like trying to maintain a sexual climax permanently. But even when good, it is only momentary. The few times there has been revolution in the US in my lifetime, some of those have been good times. But then I lean classical Liberal. Today that is to the right of center vs the narrative. The narrative is always propaganda, it isn't where things actually reside.
Quote from: Blackleaf on July 05, 2019, 04:32:15 PM
There you go with that all or nothing shit again.
Not all or nothing. Just nothing. You can't have it all.
"Sometimes "nothing" can be a real cool hand." - Cool Hand Luke
Quote from: Baruch on July 05, 2019, 04:43:28 PM
Not all or nothing. Just nothing. You can't have it all.
If the world were as you say it is, we would have total anarchy and chaos. You set the bar so high that no one could possibly measure up. That's a thing Christian fundamentalists like to do, but it seems out of place coming from you.
Quote from: Hydra009 on July 01, 2019, 12:41:15 PM
Atheists are nicer to Christians compared to the other way around if their religious identity is known, study claims (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/atheists-nicer-to-christians-religious-identity-known-study-research-ohio-university-a7944586.html)
Both online and off-line I've been smeared and bullied by Christians because I'm an avowed atheist, although the large majority of Christians I interact with in person treat me decently. It seems that a lot of Christians--mostly online--think they are justified in the way they mistreat atheists because they see themselves as suffering persecution from atheists and wish to strike back. Christians often consider an attack on their faith as an attack on them.
Quote from: Baruch on July 01, 2019, 01:03:58 PM
...I find the notion that atheists are kind to people they despise ... to be questionable.
Personally, I don't despise Christians or anybody else. However, it is true that some atheists can get pretty darned nasty with and to Christians. I wish atheists would treat Christians well even if they disagree strongly with Christians.
I don't generally discuss religion with people out here in meat space. Too dangerous. I do occasionally, though, but only with those who insist on trying to convert me.
Quote from: Baruch on July 01, 2019, 01:52:38 PMYes, LBGT want to make us all gay, by law. Atheists want to make us all atheist, by law. Jews want to convert all Gentiles (or kill them all). That is how people role. However minority positions are not likely to take hold. The majority positions, they do take hold, they are much more dangerous.
Is what you're saying here hyperbole not to be taken literally? I've noticed that many people tend to hold these kinds of views of some groups if they feel threatened by changes those groups want. Atheists, in particular, if they openly criticize religions like Christianity, are seen as intolerant and dangerous. Many people fear that if Christianity goes, then so does morality.
Quote from: Jagella on July 05, 2019, 08:31:36 PM
Both online and off-line I've been smeared and bullied by Christians because I'm an avowed atheist, although the large majority of Christians I interact with in person treat me decently. It seems that a lot of Christians--mostly online--think they are justified in the way they mistreat atheists because they see themselves as suffering persecution from atheists and wish to strike back. Christians often consider an attack on their faith as an attack on them.
It's easier to be an asshole to someone on the internet, especially when you have anonymity. When face-to-face, they have to play nice to avoid social consequences.
Quote from: Jagella on July 05, 2019, 08:47:18 PM
Is what you're saying here hyperbole not to be taken literally? I've noticed that many people tend to hold these kinds of views of some groups if they feel threatened by changes those groups want. Atheists, in particular, if they openly criticize religions like Christianity, are seen as intolerant and dangerous. Many people fear that if Christianity goes, then so does morality.
Pfft. The day Christianity dies is the day we can finally have intelligent debates on morality, rather than appealing to an iron age book of fairytales.
Quote from: Simon Moon on July 01, 2019, 04:42:29 PMYou do understand that it is possible to despise an ideology, without despising individuals, right?
Generally, yes, most people can despise a belief without despising believers. However, I do agree with Baruch to some extent. I have seen some nasty stuff from some atheists on YouTube. For example, creationist Kent Hovind was ridiculed by some atheists who sang "you're a fucktard" to him. I don't approve of that kind of invective from anybody against anybody. I think there are more intelligent ways to get a point across.
Quote from: Jagella on July 05, 2019, 08:54:24 PM
Generally, yes, most people can despise a belief without despising believers. However, I do agree with Baruch to some extent. I have seen some nasty stuff from some atheists on YouTube. For example, creationist Kent Hovind was ridiculed by some atheists who sang "you're a fucktard" to him. I don't approve of that kind of invective from anybody against anybody. I think there are more intelligent ways to get a point across.
Kent deserves no sympathy. He's a charlatan. He lies, and he knows it.
Quote from: Blackleaf on July 05, 2019, 08:49:35 PM
It's easier to be an asshole to someone on the internet, especially when you have anonymity. When face-to-face, they have to play nice to avoid social consequences.
I have no doubt that many people I've disagreed with online (and offline) would categorize me as one of those "assholes," and many of them have been atheists. I suppose it's human nature to become angry with people who disagree with us especially if they don't share our opinion on some issue we consider to be very important.
And that may be why atheists normally treat Christians better than Christians treat atheists. Since Christians hold many beliefs that are very important to them, and atheists find those beliefs to be hard to believe and even stupid, Christians have more reasons to despise atheists than atheists have reasons to despise Christians.
I generally agree that mocking Christians like that is wrong, but Kent is a special case. He lies about his credentials and his experience. He was caught and served time for tax fraud, but lies about that too. He knowingly lies about evolution, despite having been corrected many times. His business is in selling lies. Even other science-denying Christians have distanced themselves from him. Calling him a fucktard is putting it mildly.
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on July 02, 2019, 01:12:17 AM
Kind of like love the sinner hate the sin, really
I try to look at it that way. I used to be a Christian, and I know how tough it can be when skeptics ridicule you. I wish atheists would keep in mind that many Christians are victims of their faith and should be helped and not hurt.
Quote from: Blackleaf on July 05, 2019, 09:11:30 PM
I generally agree that mocking Christians like that is wrong, but Kent is a special case. He lies about his credentials and his experience. He was caught and served time for tax fraud, but lies about that too. He knowingly lies about evolution, despite having been corrected many times. His business is in selling lies. Even other science-denying Christians have distanced themselves from him. Calling him a fucktard is putting it mildly.
My approach would be to document and report what Hovind has said that isn't true and how his conclusions may not follow from his premises even if his premises were true. That's the tried and tested way philosophers have scrutinized arguments since the time of Aristotle. Calling somebody a "fucktard" is much more recent, and its effectiveness has yet to be determined. ;)
Quote from: Jagella on July 05, 2019, 09:21:18 PM
My approach would be to document and report what Hovind has said that isn't true and how his conclusions may not follow from his premises even if his premises were true. That's the tried and tested way philosophers have scrutinized arguments since the time of Aristotle. Calling somebody a "fucktard" is much more recent, and its effectiveness has yet to be determined. ;)
That has been done before as well. I'd recommend the "debate" videos AronRa made when Kent was dumb enough to accept a back and forth debate format. He usually sticks to the live debate format, where he can rapid fire too many lies to keep up with, and no one can fact check him. Kent removed most of his videos from the debate, for some mysterious reason I can never guess, but Aron still has his responses up. It becomes apparent in the first two seconds just how outclassed Kent is on the subject of evolution and biology.
Quote from: Blackleaf on July 05, 2019, 09:46:20 PM
That has been done before as well. I'd recommend the "debate" videos AronRa made when Kent was dumb enough to accept a back and forth debate format. He usually sticks to the live debate format, where he can rapid fire too many lies to keep up with, and no one can fact check him. Kent removed most of his videos from the debate, for some mysterious reason I can never guess, but Aron still has his responses up. It becomes apparent in the first two seconds just how outclassed Kent is on the subject of evolution and biology.
If you think Kent Hovind is an "interesting" debater, then check out AronRa vs Matt Slick | Bible Thumping Wingnut Show. I used to debate on Matt Slick's forum, and the place was a nuthouse. Slick has his moderators label people as atheists so that he can confine them to one subsection of his forum. Obviously Slick realizes he needs to do so because atheists will make mincemeat out of Christian beliefs if they have freedom to debate them openly, and that's after he claims he loves to debate atheists!
AronRa vs Matt Slick | Bible Thumping Wingnut Show (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MwqFMO0Lqw&t=4809s)
Quote from: Jagella on July 05, 2019, 08:54:24 PM
Generally, yes, most people can despise a belief without despising believers. However, I do agree with Baruch to some extent. I have seen some nasty stuff from some atheists on YouTube. For example, creationist Kent Hovind was ridiculed by some atheists who sang "you're a fucktard" to him. I don't approve of that kind of invective from anybody against anybody. I think there are more intelligent ways to get a point across.
Hovind would count as an anti-theist. Not all atheists are anti-theists. Not all theists are anti-atheists. I for one.
Quote from: Blackleaf on July 05, 2019, 08:51:56 PM
Pfft. The day Christianity dies is the day we can finally have intelligent debates on morality, rather than appealing to an iron age book of fairytales.
None of the great religions will die anytime soon. Probably when humanity dies. Because they are tied to archetypes in the human psyche. They change form, but the substance meets some basic need. There are no intelligent debates (humans aren't intelligent). And there is no morality. Not that I want to kill anyone. But if I do want to kill someone, a rule book won't matter. Thus a waste of time.
Quote from: Blackleaf on July 05, 2019, 04:59:13 PM
If the world were as you say it is, we would have total anarchy and chaos. You set the bar so high that no one could possibly measure up. That's a thing Christian fundamentalists like to do, but it seems out of place coming from you.
Order is illusion. Attempts to create order are tyranny. Human reality is anarchy (not chaos). But nature is chaos (pseudorandom).
I don't set any bar. Do you? Yes, some people, some Christians are judgmental. Per Gospel, those Christians are all going to Hell. Per Dante, perhaps all Popes are in Hell.
People do what they do. Neither good nor bad. But like or dislike. And we aren't in agreement on like vs dislike. Just a fact, not a judgement.
Quote from: Jagella on July 05, 2019, 08:47:18 PM
Is what you're saying here hyperbole not to be taken literally? I've noticed that many people tend to hold these kinds of views of some groups if they feel threatened by changes those groups want. Atheists, in particular, if they openly criticize religions like Christianity, are seen as intolerant and dangerous. Many people fear that if Christianity goes, then so does morality.
A false fear. Christianity has nothing to do with morality. It has to do with norms of Western behavior. Mega-ethnic-culture. And people don't like their mega-ethnic-culture challenged. The West has undergone tremendous change in 500 years. Not necessarily progress or regress (that would be judging). And change happens so much faster now. So people suffer disorientation and anxiety. Future Shock.
So I am neutral on mega-ethnic-culture in the long run. I am multicultural. But it does disturb me, for self hating Westerners to completely discard the whole of Western culture … because they have a misplaced desire to kill their ancestors.
Quote from: Jagella on July 05, 2019, 08:47:18 PM
Is what you're saying here hyperbole not to be taken literally? I've noticed that many people tend to hold these kinds of views of some groups if they feel threatened by changes those groups want. Atheists, in particular, if they openly criticize religions like Christianity, are seen as intolerant and dangerous. Many people fear that if Christianity goes, then so does morality.
That was hyperbole. And the usual posters know it, because they know me. But I get tired of their … hyperbole ;-)
In the larger picture, humans are aggressive. Even murderous. So no matter what their POV, they want in their guts, to do "bad" things about it. Solipcism … make the world into their own image, so they are more comfortable. This is a huge trope in theology etc … Satanic.
Quote from: Baruch on July 06, 2019, 01:11:01 AM
Hovind would count as an anti-theist.
Actually, Kent Hovind is a Christian, young-earth creationist. He's no anti-theist.
QuoteThere are no intelligent debates (humans aren't intelligent).
I disagree with that. Both humans and their debates can be very intelligent. Don't you consider yourself to be intelligent?
QuoteAnd there is no morality.
If by "morality" you mean judging right from wrong and doing what should be done and avoiding what should not be done, I think there's much morality. People are basically good. Otherwise, we could not survive.
QuoteChristianity has nothing to do with morality.
Then I wonder what the Ten Commandments and the Sermon on the Mount are all about.
QuoteIn the larger picture, humans are aggressive. Even murderous. So no matter what their POV, they want in their guts, to do "bad" things about it. Solipcism … make the world into their own image, so they are more comfortable. This is a huge trope in theology etc … Satanic.
Why do you have such a dim view of people? Have you been hurt by people?
Quote from: Jagella on July 06, 2019, 09:43:25 AM
Actually, Kent Hovind is a Christian, young-earth creationist. He's no anti-theist.
My mistake. I misread the string. But someone who does indiscriminate hate of religious people is anti-theist.
Quote
I disagree with that. Both humans and their debates can be very intelligent. Don't you consider yourself to be intelligent?
I am justifiably misanthropic. I despise all human beings equally … specifically I find all claims to human virtue (assuming "intelligent" is a virtue … which is an unjustifiable assumption) to be bollocks.
Quote
If by "morality" you mean judging right from wrong and doing what should be done and avoiding what should not be done, I think there's much morality. People are basically good. Otherwise, we could not survive.
I respectfully disagree.
Quote
Then I wonder what the Ten Commandments and the Sermon on the Mount are all about.
They are bullocks.
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Why do you have such a dim view of people? Have you been hurt by people?
I view people like I view zoo animals. Sure I have been hurt, we all have. That is because I am in the same cage with other animals. I am not anti-animal, I am realist. Tigers do what tigers do. They aren't immoral when they eat Mowgli.
Quote from: Baruch on July 06, 2019, 06:01:15 PM
I am justifiably misanthropic. I despise all human beings equally
Including yourself?
Quote from: Unbeliever on July 06, 2019, 06:08:06 PM
Including yourself?
Absolutely. One sin I don't have, I am not a hypocrite. Egomaniacs do not include themselves of course, in their despising of ordinary mortals. I am quite ordinary and flawed. And I can extrapolate from that, as well as make direct observation of the other zoo animals.
Well, no wonder you have such a negative view of humanity, if you have such loathing for yourself. If you can't love yourself you can't love anyone else, either.
Quote from: Unbeliever on July 06, 2019, 06:20:00 PM
Well, no wonder you have such a negative view of humanity, if you have such loathing for yourself. If you can't love yourself you can't love anyone else, either.
I have plenty of self-love … but that isn't necessarily a virtue. Care to admit you are the Apostle John, the saint of love?
I ain't copping to nothing!
Quote from: Baruch on July 05, 2019, 01:58:49 AM
Alpha male then? What country will you invade next?
I'm up for invading the Vatican. They fit our profile: Rich, no military to speak of, and they aren't very popular.
H.G. Wells thought the Vatican should have been bombed back in WWII. He talked about it in his book Crux Ansata: An Indictment of the Roman Catholic Church (http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks13/1303501h.html). It was, in fact, the title of the first chapter.
See Constantine's Sword … unfortunately the Vatican has 1700 years of guilt. Pope Pius during WW II was awful.
Quote from: Minimalist on July 06, 2019, 06:27:47 PM
I'm up for invading the Vatican. They fit our profile: Rich, no military to speak of, and they aren't very popular.
And many religious fanatics spread across the globe they can imploy to retaliate through terrorist attacks.
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on July 08, 2019, 06:49:12 AM
And many religious fanatics spread across the globe they can imploy to retaliate through terrorist attacks.
Ah, but would you rather the Soviet Union still exist? Afghans died for you.
Quote from: Baruch on July 08, 2019, 08:21:52 AM
Ah, but would you rather the Soviet Union still exist? Afghans died for you.
Njet, comrad.
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on July 08, 2019, 09:29:51 AM
Njet, comrad.
One man's Wilson's War is another man's fall of Empire.
At least we aren't fighting over Jenkins' ear...
Quote from: Unbeliever on July 08, 2019, 03:18:37 PM
At least we aren't fighting over Jenkins' ear...
He was deaf anyway ;-) How about Pig War or Pastry War or War of the Stay Dog?
Quote from: Unbeliever on July 01, 2019, 01:27:57 PM
We don't despise the people, we despise their silly delusion.
Personally, I don't care about the delusion. In some respects, I find the mythology of modern-day religions as interesting as the mythology of defunct religions. For example, I love Christmas, even the parts the Christians tried to superimpose over the Pagan holidays. I like the nativity story and consider it just another mythical tradition heaped atop Saturnalia, Sol Invictus, and Yule.
QuoteAnd the fact that they want to make it the absolute law of the land.
This is where I draw the line. Although few of them dare admit it, if they had the power to do so dedicated Christians (as opposed to nominal ones) would roll laws back to the medieval theocracy era. Actually, one dedicated Christian did admit this to me. She said everything with humanity went wrong starting with the Renaissance. It's not a typical utterance, but an honest one by a dedicated Christian.
Quote from: Mike Cl on July 01, 2019, 02:50:30 PM
Once again, the babbling shit-fest strikes.
Our permanent troll is at work again. I don't think there is one thread he hasn't spewed his nonsense. He's all over the map.
Quote from: josephpalazzo on August 04, 2019, 11:02:42 PM
Our permanent troll is at work again. I don't think there is one thread he hasn't spewed his nonsense. He's all over the map.
Still not enough sleep?
2 cents;
It is my observation from being on 'a few' atheist forums over the years that atheist overwhelmingly treat Christians especially, with far more compassion and generosity of spirit than Christians treat us on their forums. I've tried a few. Never lasted more than an hour or two before being banned. All I did was to ask a few questions. Those people seemed very insecure in their faith.
Having said that, many atheists I've run across do not extend that compassion and generosity of spirit to Muslims. That saddens me, as bigotry tends to do.
Here I post some observations, I'm not after a debate
Quote from: fredd47 on August 05, 2019, 10:28:53 PM
2 cents;
It is my observation from being on 'a few' atheist forums over the years that atheist overwhelmingly treat Christians especially, with far more compassion and generosity of spirit than Christians treat us on their forums. I've tried a few. Never lasted more than an hour or two before being banned. All I did was to ask a few questions. Those people seemed very insecure in their faith.
Having said that, many atheists I've run across do not extend that compassion and generosity of spirit to Muslims. That saddens me, as bigotry tends to do.
Here I post some observations, I'm not after a debate
Muslims are a current topic. Shinto Samurai are not. I think generosity of spirit, to all, in the question of religion, is a good idea. You will see some positive posts I have made regarding Islam. And negative ones. The trick is to not demonize, and to empathize. If you are not a Muslim, what would that be like? We currently have one American Muslim posting.
Quote from: fredd47 on August 05, 2019, 10:28:53 PM
Those people seemed very insecure in their faith.
Yeah, as I've often said, only those with weak faith feel threatened by those with no faith.
Quote from: Unbeliever on August 06, 2019, 02:21:04 PM
Yeah, as I've often said, only those with weak faith feel threatened by those with no faith.
I don't have a faith. I have reality itself. Can't get stronger than that ;-) Is picking on weaklings cricket?