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Extraordinary Claims => Religion General Discussion => Topic started by: Jagella on June 23, 2019, 12:10:07 PM

Title: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Jagella on June 23, 2019, 12:10:07 PM
We all know or should know Paul's conversion story in Acts 9:1-18. The monster Saul (Paul's name at that time) "still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord" was traveling to Damascus on a mission from the high priest to capture Christians there and bring them bound to Jerusalem. Jesus evidently had had enough of this mistreatment of his followers and met Paul on the road blinding him with a flash of light and knocking him from his horse to the ground. After Jesus identified himself and asked Paul why he was persecuting him (an odd question coming from an all-powerful being), poor Paul got to his feet still blind. As commanded by Jesus, Paul went to Damascus to await further orders from Jesus. Once there, he neither ate nor drank while remaining blind three days. Finally, Ananias, a Christian in Damascus, converted Paul without Paul's consent and restored his sight.

There's much we might discuss about this strange story, but to start allow me to point out that Paul had very strong religious convictions at the time immediately prior to his conversion, and it took a direct intervention on the part of Jesus himself to "correct" Paul. So...

If you like Paul were wrong about your religious beliefs, would a direct intervention on the part of God change your mind, or would you defy God believing he wasn't real (assuming you are an atheist) or think he was the Devil (if you are a Christian)?

(http://www.goodsalt.com/view/on-the-road-to-damascus-5.jpg)
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Mike Cl on June 23, 2019, 12:37:39 PM
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We all know or should know Paul's conversion story in Acts 9:1-18. The monster Saul (Paul's name at that time) "still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord" was traveling to Damascus on a mission from the high priest to capture Christians there and bring them bound to Jerusalem. Jesus evidently had had enough of this mistreatment of his followers and met Paul on the road blinding him with a flash of light and knocking him from his horse to the ground. After Jesus identified himself and asked Paul why he was persecuting him (an odd question coming from an all-powerful being), poor Paul got to his feet still blind. As commanded by Jesus, Paul went to Damascus to await further orders from Jesus. Once there, he neither ate nor drank while remaining blind three days. Finally, Ananias, a Christian in Damascus, converted Paul without Paul's consent and restored his sight.

There's much we might discuss about this strange story, but to start allow me to point out that Paul had very strong religious convictions at the time immediately prior to his conversion, and it took a direct intervention on the part of Jesus himself to "correct" Paul. So...

If you like Paul were wrong about your religious beliefs, would a direct intervention on the part of God change your mind, or would you defy God believing he wasn't real (assuming you are an atheist) or think he was the Devil (if you are a Christian)?

(http://www.goodsalt.com/view/on-the-road-to-damascus-5.jpg)
This is not a real question.  I mean, why not ask what I would say if Bugs Bunny knocked on my door?  Or what I would feed the Invisible Pink Unicorn?   It's not possible for me to suspend my disbelief long enough to contemplate such a happening.
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: SGOS on June 23, 2019, 01:06:44 PM
Now that's an old time religion kind of miracle.  It would convince me back then, but things are different today.  Now we have big ass halogen headlights that can blind you for three days.  And a good car audio system with an optional public address can kick out enough decibels to shatter windows.  A little wimp could tell you he was God on that thing, and be damn convincing.  But the main reason it wouldn't work to day is that Jesus has been dead for a long time, and his miracles aren't what they used to be.  Today, the best he can do is create an image on a piece of French toast, and that just ain't that spectacular.
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Jagella on June 23, 2019, 01:38:17 PM
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This is not a real question.  I mean, why not ask what I would say if Bugs Bunny knocked on my door?  Or what I would feed the Invisible Pink Unicorn?   It's not possible for me to suspend my disbelief long enough to contemplate such a happening.

I realize that some people say they have trouble imagining what "is not real." As far as Paul's alleged conversion experience is concerned, I have no trouble at all imagining a loud voice and bright light from the sky (the latter is known as "the sun") and being blind for three days (I can shut my eyes). For that matter I can easily imagine Bugs Bunny at my door or feeding a unicorn although if he was invisible, then he wouldn't be pink!

In any case, one factor that may separate the religious from the nonreligious is the use of the imagination. Although some atheists like me can make good use of their imaginations, other atheists may not be able to imagine gods or miracles, and that's why they are atheists!
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Jagella on June 23, 2019, 01:51:12 PM
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Now that's an old time religion kind of miracle.  It would convince me back then, but things are different today.  Now we have big ass halogen headlights that can blind you for three days.  And a good car audio system with an optional public address can kick out enough decibels to shatter windows.  A little wimp could tell you he was God on that thing, and be damn convincing.  But the main reason it wouldn't work to day is that Jesus has been dead for a long time, and his miracles aren't what they used to be.  Today, the best he can do is create an image on a piece of French toast, and that just ain't that spectacular.

I think it was Arthur C. Clarke who said that any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic, so you are correct that apparent miracles can have a naturalistic origin in technology. This fact may make it hard to distinguish miracles from that technology. So even if a real god exists, she may face the difficulty of convincing people who conclude that her magic is some kind of gadgetry.

Is it safe then to conclude that your answer is no, a real god could not convert you?
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: aitm on June 23, 2019, 02:09:35 PM
Won't say a "real" God could not convert me but, convert me from what? A "real" God would not resemble any of our versions of God so would most likely not need to be ass kissed so no need for conversion.



Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Baruch on June 23, 2019, 04:03:07 PM
I am a theist from childhood.  So I am easy to convince ;-)  Jesus said that miracles are not going to be provided ...

"Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law answered Jesus. They said, "Teacher, we want to see you do a miracle as a sign (proof)." Jesus answered, "Evil and sinful people are the ones that want to see a miracle for a sign (proof). But no miracle will be given as a sign to those people. The only sign will be the miracle that happened to the prophet Jonah. Jonah was in the stomach of the big fish for three days and three nights. In the same way, the Son of Man will be in the grave three days and three nights."" - Matt 12:38-40

So what does that mean?  One, the Gospels are inconsistent.  Two, in Jewish law, you aren't legally dead, until you are dead for 4 days.  Three, a day consisted of from sundown to sundown.  Jesus was in the grave before sundown on a sabbath (Friday) and was up after dawn on the following Sunday.  That is 1.5 days.  Subsequent analysis of the Jewish calendar shows that Good Friday was on a Thursday.  so that is 2.5 days.  Either way, Jesus wasn't legally dead.  So what is the whole execution and burial and resurrection about?

Jesus' story is connected to Jeremiah (prior destruction of Jerusalem) ... and prophets did "sign acts" ... live symbolic acts.  Jeremiah did a sign act regarding figs, which should remind us of the fig tree incident with Jesus.  Isaiah also did "sign acts", and is connected via Isaiah 53 to Jesus as well.  Here's a reference ...

https://thebibleproject.com/blog/sign-acts-wonderful-world-prophetic-communication/

Now what about Paul?  He admits he persecuted Jesus' followers to death.  His conversion is held in question by the followers of Jesus.  He never admits he met the living Jesus, just the celestial Christ.  Completely incompatible mish mash of the NT.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaUuSJx-VDA

This is why Nikos Kazantzakis was excommunicated.

Now as to my own experience.  I have had paranormal experiences, mostly eidetic dreams.  But that isn't what convinced me.  If I did experience some crazy miracle, I would think I was crazy ;-)  Really, resurrected dead ... kosher zombies is a completely self contradictory idea.

No miracle, as defined by atheists, or by naive theists ... has ever occurred or will occur.  G-d made the world that way for a reason.  Makes a great story for children however.  The miracle is internal (as implied by your OP).  When you perceive something about some natural event, in a new way.  And that is why I am a theist, everyday events, life itself, consciousness, are miraculous for me, just not in the way you might think.
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Shiranu on June 23, 2019, 04:14:48 PM
Note: I am an atheist, I only say this from a story-telling point of view.

Quote
After Jesus identified himself and asked Paul why he was persecuting him (an odd question coming from an all-powerful being)...

Jesus isn't asking for his sake, he is asking for Paul's sake. People do this all the time, asking a question they know the answer to just to make the other person think.











Anyways, to answer the question; yes, I would believe in god if showed himself to me. I wouldn't be happy about it given the amount of suffering he allows, but if I know sky daddy is watching me you best believe I'm going to kiss his ass as much as I must to avoid damnation.


Of course, that is never going to happen, so...
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Baruch on June 23, 2019, 04:22:34 PM
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Note: I am an atheist, I only say this from a story-telling point of view.

Jesus isn't asking for his sake, he is asking for Paul's sake. People do this all the time, asking a question they know the answer to just to make the other person think.

Anyways, to answer the question; yes, I would believe in god if showed himself to me. I wouldn't be happy about it given the amount of suffering he allows, but if I know sky daddy is watching me you best believe I'm going to kiss his ass as much as I must to avoid damnation.

Of course, that is never going to happen, so...

G-d already has.  That is why all are guilty.  You were shown G-d at your conception, and at every moment you are alive.  But that means you are not autonomous, you are a creature, not a Creator (more or less).  Humans are only creators, whereas rocks are not, because we are children of G-d, and rocks are not.

BTW - this life is Hell.  We are all damned.
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: aitm on June 23, 2019, 05:14:49 PM
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Jesus said that miracles are not going to be provided ...

"and if you pray, believing, you can tell a mountain to move and it will, and nothing will be impossible to you."


That is literally a definition of a miracle....so....
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Unbeliever on June 23, 2019, 05:44:28 PM
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If you like Paul were wrong about your religious beliefs, would a direct intervention on the part of God change your mind, or would you defy God believing he wasn't real (assuming you are an atheist) or think he was the Devil (if you are a Christian)?

Any sufficiently miraculous event would be indistinguishable from a divine act. Satan must be assumed to be able to create apparently miraculous events.  So, how could anyone ever be truly certain that it was, indeed, God, and not Satan? 


[edit}
I see I should've read some more posts before I posted, you guys are way ahead of me!
[/edit]
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Unbeliever on June 23, 2019, 05:50:00 PM
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Jesus said that miracles are not going to be provided ...

Yeah, then he did some miracles...
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Munch on June 23, 2019, 06:23:55 PM
Simply if god was real, I'd destroy him with logic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uw9bny88OuY
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Baruch on June 23, 2019, 06:42:10 PM
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"and if you pray, believing, you can tell a mountain to move and it will, and nothing will be impossible to you."


That is literally a definition of a miracle....so....

Poetry is a miracle.  You must take poetry literally or not at all.

That and it was a common epigram by Middle Eastern people, not original to Jesus.

What could poetry mean?  Take a class in poetry appreciation.

Or do you think the Ancient Mariner was a real person who shot an albatross?
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Baruch on June 23, 2019, 06:43:02 PM
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Any sufficiently miraculous event would be indistinguishable from a divine act. Satan must be assumed to be able to create apparently miraculous events.  So, how could anyone ever be truly certain that it was, indeed, God, and not Satan? 


[edit}
I see I should've read some more posts before I posted, you guys are way ahead of me!
[/edit]

If there are two gods, then you need to tithe twice (aka 20%) please.
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Baruch on June 23, 2019, 06:44:47 PM
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Yeah, then he did some miracles...

Inconsistent scriptures?  You bet.  Fiction?  You bet.  Why take a fiction at its word, to disprove a fiction.  Do I need to convince people that water is wet?

There are no miracles as you define them, you know it to be so.  So why the "play dumb" rhetoric?
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Baruch on June 23, 2019, 06:45:35 PM
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Simply if god was real, I'd destroy him with logic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uw9bny88OuY

That is why Seri/Cortana is your goddess.  How was Vulcan BTW?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QRvTv_tpw0

That personal assistant doesn't sound much like Spock.
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Munch on June 23, 2019, 06:52:46 PM
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That is why Seri/Cortana is your goddess.  How was Vulcan BTW?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QRvTv_tpw0

That personal assistant doesn't sound much like Spock.

Mine would have had a more Australian twang, in the Hugh Jackmany kind of dialect
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Baruch on June 23, 2019, 06:57:38 PM
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Mine would have had a more Australian twang, in the Hugh Jackmany kind of dialect

If you don't have an avatar of your phone assistant, how can you tell if it has pointy ears or not?
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Unbeliever on June 23, 2019, 07:09:34 PM
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If there are two gods, then you need to tithe twice (aka 20%) please.

I'd rather go through teething again than go through tithing...

Besides, 20% of nothing isn't very much.
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Unbeliever on June 23, 2019, 07:10:38 PM
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So why the "play dumb" rhetoric?

Rhetoric? I think not - I am dumb! LOL
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: aitm on June 23, 2019, 07:42:26 PM
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Poetry is a miracle.  You must take poetry literally or not at all.

That and it was a common epigram by Middle Eastern people, not original to Jesus.

What could poetry mean?  Take a class in poetry appreciation.

Or do you think the Ancient Mariner was a real person who shot an albatross?
if you're going to quote the babble but then ignore it at the same time....er.....what's the point you're making again?
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Sal1981 on June 23, 2019, 07:43:19 PM
"Her" was a pretty good movie, a bit too anthropomorphic an AI though. People have this misconception that AI will think like us, it will think nothing like us.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vs7Lo5MKIws (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vs7Lo5MKIws)
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Jagella on June 23, 2019, 08:41:52 PM
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Won't say a "real" God could not convert me but, convert me from what?

Could a real god convert you away from whatever your current beliefs are? If you're an atheist, for example, might she get you to believe in her as a god? If you're protestant, could a god make a Catholic out of you, and so on?

Quote
A "real" God would not resemble any of our versions of God...

You're probably right. The gods of religion are obviously man-made, so a real god would not look so phony.

Quote
...so would most likely not need to be ass kissed so no need for conversion.

It seems reasonable to me that a real, all-mighty god wouldn't be so petty and insecure as to demand worship to stoke his ego. He would be perfectly complete and neither need nor want anything from us.

But by "conversion" I mean a change in your beliefs as a result of encountering a real god--a different god if you already believe in a god.
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Jagella on June 23, 2019, 08:51:34 PM
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Quote
After Jesus identified himself and asked Paul why he was persecuting him (an odd question coming from an all-powerful being)...


Note: I am an atheist, I only say this from a story-telling point of view.

Jesus isn't asking for his sake, he is asking for Paul's sake. People do this all the time, asking a question they know the answer to just to make the other person think.

I always thought that by "him" Jesus meant his followers being persecuted rather than himself personally. The quotation is ambiguous, however, so I guess we'll never know what "Jesus" meant.

Quote
Anyways, to answer the question; yes, I would believe in god if showed himself to me. I wouldn't be happy about it given the amount of suffering he allows, but if I know sky daddy is watching me you best believe I'm going to kiss his ass as much as I must to avoid damnation.

I suppose I would do the same although I could never love such a god.
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Baruch on June 24, 2019, 12:09:50 AM
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Rhetoric? I think not - I am dumb! LOL

That is brilliant rhetoric ...
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Baruch on June 24, 2019, 12:10:53 AM
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if you're going to quote the babble but then ignore it at the same time....er.....what's the point you're making again?

Why do atheists quote the Bible?  Same reason I do.  Not all freethinkers are atheists.  A few of us are theists.
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: aitm on June 24, 2019, 08:39:54 AM
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Why do atheists quote the Bible?  Same reason I do.  Not all freethinkers are atheists.  A few of us are theists.
Must be the meds this morning eh? First you say Jesus didn't promise miracles even though he did and then you go off about poetry as if you awoke in a different thread. Normal for you of course....just makes it all the more entertaining to see exactly how far off the rails does the train go.
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Baruch on June 24, 2019, 10:09:46 AM
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Must be the meds this morning eh? First you say Jesus didn't promise miracles even though he did and then you go off about poetry as if you awoke in a different thread. Normal for you of course....just makes it all the more entertaining to see exactly how far off the rails does the train go.

Argue both sides against the middle, same as you ;-)

No, there are no miracles.  There is no Jesus.  Atheists have rejected a fiction, like sports fans who hate someone else fantasy league.

I reject Bugs Bunny (thanks MikeCL, would never have thought of that without you).  So I guess I am so smart.
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Mike Cl on June 24, 2019, 10:25:41 AM
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Argue both sides against the middle, same as you ;-)

No, there are no miracles.  There is no Jesus.  Atheists have rejected a fiction, like sports fans who hate someone else fantasy league.

I reject Bugs Bunny (thanks MikeCL, would never have thought of that without you).  So I guess I am so smart.
Bugs Bunny will not be pleased!!!!

And neither will be Mel Blanc!!
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Unbeliever on June 24, 2019, 01:26:28 PM
Given how easily people can be fooled into believing a miracle has occurred, such as with stage magic, etc., it's hard to see how I'd be convinced into believing I'd been contacted by a real God. I suppose if some impossibility occurred on a large enough scale, such that no human could possibly be causing it, nor even an extraterrestrial entity of any sort, then I might be persuaded that a God has actually contacted me. But why would I be worth the trouble to such a vast being? Little old pea-pickin' me?
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Blackleaf on June 24, 2019, 02:17:49 PM
If God were to show himself to exist, I'd become a misotheist. I would not worship him, especially if it were the Christian god. I've spent enough time trying to build a one-sided relationship with God, only for him to remain completely silent and unhelpful. If he suddenly came down to show himself, at best, he'd be like an absent father showing up at my doorstep. I'd be like, "Go fuck off back to where you came from."

(To be clear, my real father was not absent.)
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Simon Moon on June 24, 2019, 03:42:44 PM
There are many "ifs" and caveats to the OP question, but I would assume, that any god worthy of the "god" job description, would be able to convince me that he/she/it/they exist.

But, by the same token, a very advance alien culture would also be able to convince me that it is a god.

How would  I go about telling the difference?

As far as I can tell, if I thought a god communicated with me, it would be substantially more rational to believe it was an advanced alien culture fucking with me, rather than an actual god. After all, we know: life can arise on at least one planet (Earth), that there are trillions of sun like stars in the universe (20 billion in the Milky Way alone), there are an uncountable number of earth like planets, the building blocks of life are plentiful in the universe.

So, there is a greater chance that an alien race is responsible, than an actual god.

Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: josephpalazzo on June 24, 2019, 05:27:50 PM
Real god... Nope, I'm not buying...
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Jagella on June 26, 2019, 09:32:07 AM
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Given how easily people can be fooled into believing a miracle has occurred, such as with stage magic, etc., it's hard to see how I'd be convinced into believing I'd been contacted by a real God.

Based on what you and others have said as well as my own thoughts on the issue of knowing a "real god" when we see her, him, it, or them, it appears that identifying a god and distinguishing a real god from other entities is a problem that cannot be solved. As far as I know no Christian apologist has addressed the issue of identifying the Christian god although many Christians will tell you that any manifestation of God must be in accord with their interpretation of the Bible. In other words, if you see anything claiming to be God yet that contradicts the Bible, then it's not really God! This approach assumes that the Bible god is the real god, of course, and if the Bible god isn't the real god, then many Christians would defy a real god.

Quote
I suppose if some impossibility occurred on a large enough scale, such that no human could possibly be causing it, nor even an extraterrestrial entity of any sort, then I might be persuaded that a God has actually contacted me.

If a real god could spell out "Jesus is Lord" in the stars, then I might at the very least consider belief.

Quote
But why would I be worth the trouble to such a vast being? Little old pea-pickin' me?

A "vast being" might show some concern for us people. If that being did show concern for us, however, I'd expect it to do better than it is apparently doing.
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Jagella on June 26, 2019, 09:38:08 AM
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If God were to show himself to exist, I'd become a misotheist. I would not worship him, especially if it were the Christian god. I've spent enough time trying to build a one-sided relationship with God, only for him to remain completely silent and unhelpful. If he suddenly came down to show himself, at best, he'd be like an absent father showing up at my doorstep. I'd be like, "Go fuck off back to where you came from."

(To be clear, my real father was not absent.)

It sounds like you're describing a "prodigal god." If a real god exists, he seems reluctant to "come home" to us and has only bothered to tell some people long ago what he wants us to know. He doesn't seem to realize that we have been confused by his sacred scriptures and that we are unable to tell his word from the word of people.
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Jagella on June 26, 2019, 09:58:40 AM
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There are many "ifs" and caveats to the OP question, but I would assume, that any god worthy of the "god" job description, would be able to convince me that he/she/it/they exist.

I think you're right: among other things, a real god should be convincing. A good example of doubting an apparent god even if it's encountered is that of Captain Kirk in Star Trek V meeting what is supposed to be God. Kirk becomes incredulous when "God" doesn't know who Kirk is! Kirk asks: "You mean you don't know? Aren't you God?"

Quote
But, by the same token, a very advance alien culture would also be able to convince me that it is a god.

How would  I go about telling the difference?

I don't know of any way you could tell the difference between a real god and aliens. If we assume that the Christian god is real, then he would differ from aliens in that he is the creator while they are the created, and he is all-powerful while they are merely powerful. However, I don't know of any way to know if something created the cosmos or is all-powerful.

Quote
As far as I can tell, if I thought a god communicated with me, it would be substantially more rational to believe it was an advanced alien culture fucking with me, rather than an actual god.

I agree that intelligent ETs more probably exist than a god. So it's reasonable to go with what is more probable: ETs are more likely responsible for magic than a god if magic is real.

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/r4HjR5xW7FU/maxresdefault.jpg)
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Jagella on June 26, 2019, 10:01:04 AM
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Real god... Nope, I'm not buying...

Come now; Christian apologists will accuse you of having a "bias against the supernatural." They apparently are not able to convince anybody with such a bias.
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: josephpalazzo on June 26, 2019, 11:54:48 AM
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Come now; Christian apologists will accuse you of having a "bias against the supernatural." They apparently are not able to convince anybody with such a bias.

Guilty as charged... the supernatural is notorious for its lack of evidence.
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Jagella on June 26, 2019, 12:40:44 PM
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Guilty as charged... the supernatural is notorious for its lack of evidence.

That's fine. Contrary to what apologists like to charge, I see nothing wrong with having a bias against the supernatural. If apologists cannot overcome skepticism, then whining about it probably won't do them much good.
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Baruch on June 26, 2019, 03:37:23 PM
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There are many "ifs" and caveats to the OP question, but I would assume, that any god worthy of the "god" job description, would be able to convince me that he/she/it/they exist.

But, by the same token, a very advance alien culture would also be able to convince me that it is a god.

How would  I go about telling the difference?

As far as I can tell, if I thought a god communicated with me, it would be substantially more rational to believe it was an advanced alien culture fucking with me, rather than an actual god. After all, we know: life can arise on at least one planet (Earth), that there are trillions of sun like stars in the universe (20 billion in the Milky Way alone), there are an uncountable number of earth like planets, the building blocks of life are plentiful in the universe.

So, there is a greater chance that an alien race is responsible, than an actual god.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rz508DAx68U

But Alien Apollo .. only if he is stronger than Capt Kirk.
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: aitm on June 26, 2019, 04:08:10 PM
huh, I don't recall that episode....
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: aitm on June 26, 2019, 04:10:14 PM
But hey...at least in Malachi, I will be corrected by the resident expert if wrong, old god offers the grand reward of a large flock of rams. Ahhh. good ole up-wit-it god.
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Baruch on June 26, 2019, 04:52:42 PM
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That's fine. Contrary to what apologists like to charge, I see nothing wrong with having a bias against the supernatural. If apologists cannot overcome skepticism, then whining about it probably won't do them much good.

Skepticism is good, but are you skeptical about skepticism?  If not, you will be nihilist.

The supernatural, as usually defined ... doesn't happen except in fiction.  Everything is natural, by materialist definition.  There are other definitions.  But rhetorically we tend toward only accepting one definition for a word, that conveniently matches the one we want to use.

I don't accept any supernatural events (as defined above) in any scripture or other writing or verbal claim of living people.  Same reason why I don't accept any claims of UFOs ... in spite of recent hype from the US Navy.  Until you have one land on the White House lawn, I doubt it.  Usually claims of UFOs imply super-physics that runs contrary to known physics.  Super-physics is the love of sci-fi.  But new physics doesn't contradict old physics, it adapts old physics to new circumstances, and we continue to use old physics for common purpose.  We had conservation of energy and conservation of mass.  Turns out that in very special conditions (nuclear reactions) those are both violated, but the combined conservation of mass-energy is not.  The new physics of Special Relativity, didn't result in warp drive or a free lunch.  Sorry, if it directly contradicts, under conventional conditions, what we already know from conventional physics ... then it is science fantasy, not science fiction.  Jules Verne worked in science fiction, not science fantasy, and even he got things wrong at times (giant cannon to send people to the Moon).  Mostly today we have science fantasy, that is as fictional as the Bible.  Serves the same purpose for modern people, as Bibie stories served ancient Jewish people.
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Baruch on June 26, 2019, 04:53:43 PM
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huh, I don't recall that episode....

Too much recreational ... ?  We watched Star Trek and Time Tunnel religiously ;-)
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Baruch on June 26, 2019, 05:00:43 PM
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But hey...at least in Malachi, I will be corrected by the resident expert if wrong, old god offers the grand reward of a large flock of rams. Ahhh. good ole up-wit-it god.

Book of Malachi?  A minor prophet.  Misplaced in Christian Bibles to the end of the OT, to reinforce the theology that Malachi predicts the Christ.

Basically Malachi is about ... the ongoing love of G-d, of the Israelites, in spite of their constant backsliding.

Basically the audience of Malachi have had blessings, but not enough to convince them that G-d still loves them.  Malachi counters this.

Yes, a large flock of rams is worth something, but only if you have lots of ewes.  Male sheep can't reproduce on their own.
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Simon Moon on July 03, 2019, 03:17:04 PM
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huh, I don't recall that episode....

Very good episode.

Interesting thing about the original Star Trek, but every episode (that I am aware of), that had an alien race that believe in a god, it ended up being a computer.

"For the World is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky", aliens live inside an asteroid like space ship. Their leader comunes with a god, that ends up being a computer.

"Return of the Archons", people on a planet are lead by a computer (Landru) they believe is a god. They live in a very repressed totalitarian society, except for 'the red hour'  when they are allowed to go wild.

"The Apple", people worship a computer that looks like Godzilla's head.

"The Paradise Syndrome", people worship an obelisk, with a computer underneath.

Maybe this all has to do with Gene Roddenberry being a deist, or possibly an atheist.
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Unbeliever on July 03, 2019, 03:31:55 PM
Or it could just mean that God is a computer...    :-P
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Baruch on July 04, 2019, 04:35:47 AM
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Or it could just mean that God is a computer...    :-P

Computers all the way down instead of giant turtles ;-)
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: fredd47 on August 06, 2019, 11:36:28 PM
 Could the real god convert me?

If you mean if god suddenly appeared in my kitchen? really don't know. I think I'll just wait and see. I hope it's not that obnoxious twat YHWH in the Torah. Jesus would be fine  but I'd insist on seeing his wounds. What can I say?. I'm a skeptic.


Slightly off topic:  A fascinating film of a television play "God On Trial" Set in Auschwitz . A group of Jewish men who know they will die the next day. They decide to put god on trial for breaking the Abrahamic covenant. God is found guilty.  Well worth a look

"God on Trial is a 2008 British television play written by Frank Cottrell Boyce, starring Antony Sher, Rupert Graves and Jack Shepherd. The play takes place in Auschwitz during World War II. The Jewish prisoners put God on trial in absentia for abandoning the Jewish people. The question is whether God has broken his covenant with the Jewish people by allowing the Germans to commit genocide.[1] It was produced and shown by the BBC on 3 September 2008. Production was supported by PBS, which screened the play as part of its Masterpiece anthology. "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_on_Trial

((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((90)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

The 'brit milah ' Also called"the covenant of circumcision"

Genesis 17 contains the covenant of circumcision (conditional).

    To make of Abraham a great nation and bless Abraham and make his name great so that he will be a blessing, to bless those who bless him and curse him who curses him and all peoples on earth would be blessed through Abraham.[Gen 12:1–3]
    To give Abraham's descendants all the land from the river of Egypt to the Euphrates.[Gen 15:18–21] Later, this land came to be referred to as the Promised Land (see map) or the Land of Israel.
    To make Abraham the father of many nations and of many descendants and give "the whole land of Canaan" to his descendants.[Gen 17:2–9] Circumcision is to be the permanent sign of this everlasting covenant with Abraham and his male descendants and is known as the brit milah.[Gen 17:9–14]
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: SGOS on August 07, 2019, 09:38:30 AM
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Could the real god convert me?

If you mean if god suddenly appeared in my kitchen? really don't know. I think I'll just wait and see. I hope it's not that obnoxious twat YHWH in the Torah. Jesus would be fine  but I'd insist on seeing his wounds. What can I say?. I'm a skeptic.
I actually dealt with this question when I was very young.  Granted I was handicapped by growing up in a house with some family members holding strong fundamentalist views.  Even then, I could not get past the question of why God never appears.  So when dealing with hypothetical "suppose he did," and if it turned out to be the YHWH in the old testament, my first reaction would be, "Hell yes, I'd believe."  But then comes the question would I love and worship him?  But as you point out, that particular god was one nasty ass prick.  I knew this because my fundamentalist grandmother told me this, and at that age, I believed that if there were a god, the only one he could be was the one I knew, and while grandmother told me he was loving, she described one nasty ass prick, which was enough to tell me he was not loving.

Could I love that god, and devote myself to him?  Well, as God, he would know that I couldn't, because he could read my mind.  He could scare the Hell out of me.  He'd know that, but he would also know that I could never devote myself to such an evil deity, and off I'd go to Hell.

As I got older, I started to entertain the notion of an actual loving god, but there was such an abundance of gods, most of them variations of the Christian god, that I was confronted by the fact that no one really knew what God was like.  Many believed they knew, but none actually knew.

So off I go on a quest to find the real one, which requires that I know he exists, but I realized I could never know that as evidenced by all those people who said they knew him could not agree on which one he was, so the hypothetical question of if he appeared has no meaning.  Until he appears, which he never does, the question is irrelevant.  Although if one takes the question seriously it can only lead to making up reasons to gloss over the contradictions, lying about one's state of knowing, and generally chasing one's tail in a pointless mind fuck.

Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: josephpalazzo on August 07, 2019, 10:06:38 AM
If Donald Duck would suddenly appear in front of me, I would check myself at the nearest mental institute. Ditto for a god...
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Baruch on August 07, 2019, 10:36:14 AM
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If Donald Duck would suddenly appear in front of me, I would check myself at the nearest mental institute. Ditto for a god...

How about Donald Trump? ;-)  I would have him arrested for trespassing ;-))
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: drunkenshoe on August 07, 2019, 10:45:29 AM
Naaah, 'the real atheists' would keep making sense. LOL ???


Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Baruch on August 07, 2019, 10:51:30 AM
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Naaah, 'the real atheists' would keep making sense. LOL ???

Like "communism", real "atheism" has never been tried ;-))
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: josephpalazzo on August 07, 2019, 11:06:10 AM
Here’s the real problem with god: If a god exists who is all-knowing, all-powerful and perfectly good, then the amount of horrific suffering in our world needs an explanation. Either this god isn’t smart enough to eliminate it, or isn’t powerful enough to eliminate it, or doesn’t care enough to eliminate it. The reason is that an all-knowing god would know how to eliminate it, an all-powerful god has the power to eliminate it, and a perfectly good god would want to eliminate it.
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Mike Cl on August 07, 2019, 11:22:23 AM
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Like "communism", real "atheism" has never been tried ;-))
Really?  What is 'real' atheism???
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Unbeliever on August 07, 2019, 02:01:06 PM
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Here’s the real problem with god: If a god exists who is all-knowing, all-powerful and perfectly good, then the amount of horrific suffering in our world needs an explanation. Either this god isn’t smart enough to eliminate it, or isn’t powerful enough to eliminate it, or doesn’t care enough to eliminate it. The reason is that an all-knowing god would know how to eliminate it, an all-powerful god has the power to eliminate it, and a perfectly good god would want to eliminate it.

And thus we have theodicy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodicy), a desperate search for excuses for the existence of both moral and natural evil in the world. Any crumb of sophistry that lets God off the hook will be latched onto like gecko feet.
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Simon Moon on August 07, 2019, 02:17:07 PM
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Really?  What is 'real' atheism???

According to Jordan Peterson, a 'real atheist' would be a murderer.

I wonder of that's what Baruch means?
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Unbeliever on August 07, 2019, 02:19:48 PM
We'd better hope Peterson doesn't lose his belief in God, or we might have a real monster to deal with!
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: josephpalazzo on August 07, 2019, 02:22:07 PM
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According to Jordan Peterson, a 'real atheist' would be a murderer.

I wonder of that's what Baruch means?

Aren't we? We kill theists' arguments all the time...
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Unbeliever on August 07, 2019, 02:24:25 PM
Yeah, we kill those arguments, but like zombies or Dr. Who, they keep coming back, in new guises and with higher levels of arrogance.
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: SGOS on August 07, 2019, 02:26:37 PM
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According to Jordan Peterson, a 'real atheist' would be a murderer.
I'll bet he had to do some heavy duty thinking to come up with that.
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: drunkenshoe on August 07, 2019, 03:00:32 PM
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Like "communism", real "atheism" has never been tried ;-))

Timon> "Gets them every time!"
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Simon Moon on August 07, 2019, 03:06:25 PM
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I'll bet he had to do some heavy duty thinking to come up with that.

Just watch his discussion with Matt Dillahunty from about a year ago. Dillahunty's jaw, literally drops.

He also claims: that Nazi Germany was an example of secular humanism, one cannot quit smoking without a 'spiritual' experience, DMT experiences actually reflect some sort of reality (outside the brain), among other ridiculous statements.

I continually am shocked that he is considered some sort of intellectual.
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Baruch on August 07, 2019, 04:13:39 PM
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According to Jordan Peterson, a 'real atheist' would be a murderer.

I wonder of that's what Baruch means?

No.  Some might argue that.  Peterson is being rhetorical ... as I often am, but I don't argue that way.  All humans are potential murderers.  I think Peterson and I agree on that.  Usually called original sin, but for me, it is biological/secular.  The idea that any cultural norm, theist or not, makes any difference vs the essentially evil nature of human beings, is naive.  Idealists don't believe in evil ... and from that can justify the notion of the "perfectibility" of human beings.  I absolutely deny this "perfectibility" just as I absolutely deny "progress".  But I won't deny the attractiveness of these religiously inspired political ideologies ;-)  It is good snake oil.  Arik promotes the same perfectibility, but on a different basis.
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Baruch on August 07, 2019, 04:14:32 PM
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Yeah, we kill those arguments, but like zombies or Dr. Who, they keep coming back, in new guises and with higher levels of arrogance.

Takes one asshole to know another ;-)  Virtue signal ... look at me, I am "secular Christ".
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Baruch on August 07, 2019, 04:15:16 PM
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I'll bet he had to do some heavy duty thinking to come up with that.

Peterson thinks a lot.  But he has never embraced theism.  That takes heart.  It is very hard, in a cruel world, to be theist, unless you accept that G-d isn't a nice guy.  Peterson and his family has suffered, but they haven't completed worked that thru yet.  In Jewish religion, one accepts that there is no "good news".
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Baruch on August 07, 2019, 04:19:17 PM
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Just watch his discussion with Matt Dillahunty from about a year ago. Dillahunty's jaw, literally drops.

He also claims: that Nazi Germany was an example of secular humanism, one cannot quit smoking without a 'spiritual' experience, DMT experiences actually reflect some sort of reality (outside the brain), among other ridiculous statements.

I continually am shocked that he is considered some sort of intellectual.

I watched that one too.  Dillahunty is overrated.  So is Peterson.  So is Harris.  Peterson has good comebacks against incompetent journalists.

Peterson is traumatized by 20th century totalitarianism.  That is a real thing, but I am not traumatized.  I can identify with evil, with villainy.  Most people can't do that, no matter what evil they do, they think they are saints.  Delusion is normal for people.

Again Peterson is a clinical psychologist, partly "depth" psychology.  People here completely dismiss clinical psychology.  They consider schizophrenia as a protected political class.
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Baruch on August 07, 2019, 04:24:20 PM
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Very good episode.

Interesting thing about the original Star Trek, but every episode (that I am aware of), that had an alien race that believe in a god, it ended up being a computer.

"For the World is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky", aliens live inside an asteroid like space ship. Their leader comunes with a god, that ends up being a computer.

"Return of the Archons", people on a planet are lead by a computer (Landru) they believe is a god. They live in a very repressed totalitarian society, except for 'the red hour'  when they are allowed to go wild.

"The Apple", people worship a computer that looks like Godzilla's head.

"The Paradise Syndrome", people worship an obelisk, with a computer underneath.

Maybe this all has to do with Gene Roddenberry being a deist, or possibly an atheist.

In Babylon 5, the Catholic Church was still running things in the background.
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Baruch on August 07, 2019, 04:25:30 PM
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Here’s the real problem with god: If a god exists who is all-knowing, all-powerful and perfectly good, then the amount of horrific suffering in our world needs an explanation. Either this god isn’t smart enough to eliminate it, or isn’t powerful enough to eliminate it, or doesn’t care enough to eliminate it. The reason is that an all-knowing god would know how to eliminate it, an all-powerful god has the power to eliminate it, and a perfectly good god would want to eliminate it.

Greek ideals are a complete burlesque of Jewish values.  The NT is a burlesque of Judaism, hence Jewish rejection of it.
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Baruch on August 07, 2019, 04:27:12 PM
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Really?  What is 'real' atheism???

Hillary Clinton head in a jar ;-))

I made a joke.  You want me to justify it.  It is funny.  That is enough justification.  "not real communism" is a famous meme, and I took advantage of it.
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Baruch on August 07, 2019, 04:28:28 PM
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We'd better hope Peterson doesn't lose his belief in God, or we might have a real monster to deal with!

Peterson is metaphysical, not theistic.  His god is impersonal, somewhat like Harris.
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Mike Cl on August 07, 2019, 05:15:11 PM
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Hillary Clinton head in a jar ;-))

I made a joke.  You want me to justify it.  It is funny.  That is enough justification.  "not real communism" is a famous meme, and I took advantage of it.
Up to your normal standards of late. 
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Blackleaf on August 07, 2019, 05:44:15 PM
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Peterson is metaphysical, not theistic.  His god is impersonal, somewhat like Harris.

You give Jordan Peterson far too much credit. He's made his living off of telling people what they like to hear, while being just vague enough about his own opinions that he could wiggle out of any controversies when necessary. Part of that strategy is appealing to Christian ideology, while attempting to keep just enough distance that one couldn't simply peg him as a Christian. Basically, he's a faker and a coward.
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Simon Moon on August 07, 2019, 07:46:40 PM
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I watched that one too.  Dillahunty is overrated.  So is Peterson.

Be that as it may, and I am in somewhat agreement, he sure slaps Petereson around quite a bit. Like in the specific examples I mentioned.

Quote
Peterson is traumatized by 20th century totalitarianism.

So am I. I had grandparents with tattooed numbers on their arms. 

But that is no reason to misrepresent it, as he did in that discussion.
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Simon Moon on August 07, 2019, 07:50:02 PM
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In Babylon 5, the Catholic Church was still running things in the background.

In possibly the best sci fi books written in the last 30 years, Dan Simmons', "Hyperion Cantos", the Catholic church ran things too.

Seriously, the Hyperion books are some of the most literate sci fi books ever. 
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Baruch on August 07, 2019, 08:22:07 PM
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You give Jordan Peterson far too much credit. He's made his living off of telling people what they like to hear, while being just vague enough about his own opinions that he could wiggle out of any controversies when necessary. Part of that strategy is appealing to Christian ideology, while attempting to keep just enough distance that one couldn't simply peg him as a Christian. Basically, he's a faker and a coward.

Well, in clinical psychology, he might not be the kind of clinician you prefer.  Maybe someone who supports pharmaceutical intervention more.  I know that when I had anesthesia for my cataract surgery (and I rarely am exposed to drugs) I would have paid someone for periodic recreational access to that anesthesia.

More recently, he isn't practicing medicine.  He is practicing celebrity.  But I did enjoy him kicking PC academia and PC MSM in the balls the first year or two.

Or maybe you prefer the mumbo-jumbo of Harris?
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Baruch on August 07, 2019, 08:22:48 PM
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Up to your normal standards of late.

I will take that as approval, not that a demi-god needs any approval.
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Baruch on August 07, 2019, 08:25:03 PM
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Be that as it may, and I am in somewhat agreement, he sure slaps Petereson around quite a bit. Like in the specific examples I mentioned.

So am I. I had grandparents with tattooed numbers on their arms. 

But that is no reason to misrepresent it, as he did in that discussion.

Yes, unless you have been in the Camps or Gulag, you have nothing to complain about.
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Baruch on August 07, 2019, 08:26:33 PM
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In possibly the best sci fi books written in the last 30 years, Dan Simmons', "Hyperion Cantos", the Catholic church ran things too.

Seriously, the Hyperion books are some of the most literate sci fi books ever.

Golden Compass is somewhat Catholic too.  Not ever being Catholic, their church is exotic to me.
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Mike Cl on August 07, 2019, 10:13:29 PM
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I will take that as approval, not that a demi-god needs any approval.
Actually, I made the mistake of going back a couple of years and reading some posts we had exchanged.  So, no, it is not approval (not that you give a shit one way or the other) but your content, tone and wording have changed quite a bit.  Have you had a stroke within the last 2 yrs.?  Now almost every post is disingenuous; not so two years ago.  Now it is almost impossible to tell what you think/believe about anything.  Your usual post these days is simply vapid nonsense; you are disingenuous about everything.
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Blackleaf on August 08, 2019, 12:16:45 AM
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But I did enjoy him kicking PC academia and PC MSM in the balls the first year or two.

Yeah, that never happened. His anti-PC career has always been based entirely on lies, misinformation, and word salad that sounds smart until you start dissecting it. Like his brain dead followers, you fell for it.
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Baruch on August 08, 2019, 01:00:19 AM
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Actually, I made the mistake of going back a couple of years and reading some posts we had exchanged.  So, no, it is not approval (not that you give a shit one way or the other) but your content, tone and wording have changed quite a bit.  Have you had a stroke within the last 2 yrs.?  Now almost every post is disingenuous; not so two years ago.  Now it is almost impossible to tell what you think/believe about anything.  Your usual post these days is simply vapid nonsense; you are disingenuous about everything.

Yes, times they are a changing.  Aging is inevitable, might as well embrace it ;-)  Diabetes might be part of it.

I am surprised, given that my ... well organized long posts are rare ... that you even remember them.  Since they generate no discussion, I assume nobody reads them.  But I will make more, as I feel like it.  All posting, short or long, is intuition and inspiration based.  I can't tell in advance what will come out, because I am not doing this by deliberation, following some corporate vision/objective plan.

I consider this web site a fan fiction site, where we are like teen age girls exchanging short fan fiction (alternative scenarios) about our favorite characters from Hunger Games.  I may have been too creative last month.  Responded to an email from Munch, and went deep into alternative personality mode.  It is what my Id wanted ... "Remember The Krell"!
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: drunkenshoe on August 08, 2019, 03:20:55 AM
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You give Jordan Peterson far too much credit. He's made his living off of telling people what they like to hear, while being just vague enough about his own opinions that he could wiggle out of any controversies when necessary. Part of that strategy is appealing to Christian ideology, while attempting to keep just enough distance that one couldn't simply peg him as a Christian. Basically, he's a faker and a coward.

Anyone who appears-thrives as a result of a divisive climate, make money and fame from by feeding into that environment is not worth your attention. Can't offer anything useful by default.   

While he is openly a right winger and a conservative, he denies that and he describes himself a 'British liberal' -he means classical liberal, I guess lol- and a 'traditionalist'. LOL That's the defenition of a charlatan. They are like bacteria. Whenever there is a suitable environment, they occur and thrive. It's their time now. The humidity, temperature...lol all the natural circumstances; the a world going far right makes a perfect home for them.

However, he is very good at expressing certain things to the new divided society; exploiting the social media generation which is the current to top job in this era. Enough time passes, these figures will be gone and replaced by others. They are reactionary figures. But then there is also figures who can give a reactions to the needs of the time they live. You can't do that by just marketing and debating skills. Two very different figures. One changes things, others make money and then get forgotten.

Most of his Peterson's audience is made of atheist, the red pill male group. They are almost all white het males in need of being a part of a group. But as they can't go anywhere further than 'far right', people who appeal to them naturally intersect with Christians; religious lot in general. Because doesn't matter what distinction they try to make, these social media movements are bound to fall back into that set of ideology, because that's where they belong to.  There is no way around it. Right wing and the religious. Bread and butter.

So Peterson has to adopt a Christian audience in this way or another. Or he can't expand. He even has a muslim, or secular conservative far right audience over here.   

When the red pill came to Turkey a few years ago, the people who translated and spread it, tried to create a highly secular image, claimed that it is progressive, just reactionary to anything goes wrong. But it just took more than a year for it to drop from league they imagined and embraced by the islamists. LOOL

Because the social realtionships, the models of male-female relationship fits theirs perfectly and they even started to look positively to the 'idea' of evolution. I am serious. This is really happening guys. LOOL Well, when there is a promise of pussy, you can accomplish the impossible it seems.

Oh the double-triple irony. A social media male movement, originated in western atheists groups that claims western culture has been run on gynocentrism and as a result is collapsing; produces so called arguments from evolutionary psychology in hope for waking up the world male population to create a new world culture. They are largely far right; suffer from racism or xenophobia.   

This spreads at light speed around the world to the Middle East and such places where the word 'evolution' is equal to 'so why do we still have monkeys then' at best, becomes a major trend and gets celebrated by islamists, who starts blogs and sites on why the 'womenfolk' is like that; the miracle of evolutionary psychology! 'Hey these Westerners are not so bad, evolution makes some sense after all' and some think 'I think we can live there' and the ones already living in esp. in the US start to see themselves as the 'the oppressed white het male' while they are the number one target group for far right, racist, xenophobic, anti-feminists groups they love so much. 

And while males in this groups profess their hatred for Western women, these ones do that to the middle eastern women. First group wants to have Eastern or middle eastern women because they are more likely to fit in a red pill bride model, while the secular sub groups are going after western women -esp. Russians- because Russian women are treated so badly in general, fit white beauty norms which is a must you see, and the majority is refusing Turkish women because they suffer from feminism, lol.

This goes on and on.

Do you know how many people learned English just because of this trend(s)? Secular, atheist or islamist alike? And think they are learning about 'evolution'? Why, because it offers sex; women. And the central idea is to change the female centered culture and life oppressing men. By what? Arrenging their whole lives around females; presence or absence of them.

Somebody count the ironies. I am dizzy. The heterosexual male has never been this humiliated in entire history.

These people love Peterson and his ilk. They don't discriminate. These people are like 'heroes' to them. I am sure a lot of them see him and similar figures as 'saviours'.     


Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Baruch on August 08, 2019, 06:24:39 AM
Peterson has had a young male audience.  Marxist Feminism has its audience (currently brain washing college students).  Peterson opposes both feminism and Marxism.  I have been sympathetic to Peterson.  Though I am not his "groupie".

I don't feel threatened by ideas, no matter how bad they are.  Let the psychopaths rage on, like characters from Shakespeare's Tempest.

Humans mostly self harm or mutually harm.  Sad.
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Blackleaf on August 08, 2019, 09:46:17 AM
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Marxist Feminism has its audience (currently brain washing college students).

OMG. You're sounding like PR. If you think college students are being brainwashed, you need to go back to college, because you know nothing.
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: josephpalazzo on August 08, 2019, 10:12:39 AM
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OMG. You're sounding like PR. If you think college students are being brainwashed, you need to go back to college, because you know nothing.

BTW, whatever happened to PR?
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Blackleaf on August 08, 2019, 10:33:15 AM
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BTW, whatever happened to PR?

He got banned, I think. Not sure why. Probably said something racist, if I had to guess. I think the mods tolerated more from him than they would have from someone who wasn't such an established member.
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: josephpalazzo on August 08, 2019, 10:52:03 AM
Huh, it's too bad. PR had an extreme right-wing POV. But nevertheless there are extreme left-wing POV's, which is tolerated. This is an atheist forum, and atheists of all political stripes should be welcomed. MHO.
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Cavebear on August 08, 2019, 10:57:25 AM
IF there was a real deity who could convince me that it WAS real,  I would have to accept.  Logic would require it.

Having said that, I think the idea is so remote as to fade into impossibility.

What would a deity do to prove ITSELF?  Well, flaming letters across the sky saying that Saturn will blow up in 3, 2, 1... (and it happens) would be impressive.  Maybe making the Moon suddenly pin.  But a sufficiently advanved species og mortal origins might be able to do those things too.

There is virtually nothing that a deity could do that would change my mind externally.  But there is ONE THING a deity could do.  It could reach into my brain and change my mind about ITS existence so that I didn't doubt ITS existence.

And even then (before the brain-change) it could be done by science some day.  But it wouldn't matter then.  I would BELIEVE and BE CONVINCED utterly completely and totally...  Then there would be a deity in my way of thinking.

But don't hold your breath waiting for THAT...
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Cavebear on August 08, 2019, 11:09:01 AM
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(http://www.goodsalt.com/view/on-the-road-to-damascus-5.jpg)

It just struck me (this moment) absurdly funny that you had to produce a created image to convince us that some religious event was real, as evidence of its reality.  I guess I missed your original post, or I didn't think about the image at the time.

I mean, its not like a modern graphic of a cruxified Christ or Daniel In The Lions' Den itself is evidence of the veracity of the event even to a theist's mind (I hope).

So out of a generally sort of curiosity, may I ask what were you thinking at the time?
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Blackleaf on August 08, 2019, 11:15:39 AM
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Huh, it's too bad. PR had an extreme right-wing POV. But nevertheless there are extreme left-wing POV's, which is tolerated. This is an atheist forum, and atheists of all political stripes should be welcomed. MHO.

Looks like it was for trolling and such: http://atheistforums.com/index.php?topic=5588.msg1251807#msg1251807

I don't so much mind that PR had different political opinions, but he was a major pain in the ass. Baruch and Munch have similar political opinions, but they don't get on my nerves nearly as much as he did. Some of PR's posts bordered on overt racism, which is what I previously assumed was the reasoning for his ban.
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: josephpalazzo on August 08, 2019, 11:22:48 AM
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Looks like it was for trolling and such: http://atheistforums.com/index.php?topic=5588.msg1251807#msg1251807

I don't so much mind that PR had different political opinions, but he was a major pain in the ass. Baruch and Munch have similar political opinions, but they don't get on my nerves nearly as much as he did. Some of PR's posts bordered on overt racism, which is what I previously assumed was the reasoning for his ban.

Thanks for the info. If we were to apply the same standards, most of us would be banned...
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Cavebear on August 08, 2019, 11:36:01 AM
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Huh, it's too bad. PR had an extreme right-wing POV. But nevertheless there are extreme left-wing POV's, which is tolerated. This is an atheist forum, and atheists of all political stripes should be welcomed. MHO.

I think the difference was that PR really truly hated some groups of humans, and atheists, in general do not.  In my life, I have met some atheists (who were atheists by discussion and claims I could not deny) who were among some of the meanest people I ever met. 

Being an atheist doesn't mean you are ethical or not.  It just means you don't basically see a reason to think there is a deity of any sort.  And I (as many others here) am prepared to debate those atheists here and now on any topic. 

If a local shooter claims to be an atheist and shows evidence of it from past posts or discussions, I will accept that atheists can be wanton killers or even just plain mean people.

There is no rule that atheists have to be people who agree with me of any or all social issues.  I don't think that atheists are always right.  I just think they generally have the best approach to reality.
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: SGOS on August 08, 2019, 12:00:19 PM
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Huh, it's too bad. PR had an extreme right-wing POV. But nevertheless there are extreme left-wing POV's, which is tolerated. This is an atheist forum, and atheists of all political stripes should be welcomed. MHO.
He was off the map with his views, but he wasn't a troll.  A troll is someone who tries to piss people off.  He offended many, but I never felt like that was his intention.  I think he was just trying to convert people, or in his view, to get us to "see the light."  I was mystified by his misguided dedication, but aside from his narrow minded views, I think he could have been quite likeable.  But I have to admit that for him, nothing was up for discussion.  Everything was a one way lecture through weird Utube videos.
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Cavebear on August 08, 2019, 12:41:59 PM
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He was off the map with his views, but he wasn't a troll.  A troll is someone who tries to piss people off.  He offended many, but I never felt like that was his intention.  I think he was just trying to convert people, or in his view, to get us to "see the light."  I was mystified by his misguided dedication, but aside from his narrow minded views, I think he could have been quite likeable.  But I have to admit that for him, nothing was up for discussion.  Everything was a one way lecture through weird Utube videos.

I think PR had some very extreme views and some of them crossed the boundaries of useful discussion.  I don't think he did it to deliberately annoy people, but he did do it because (sorry) he was a whack case.  One be a religious Hitler or an atheist Hitler, but either deserved banning.  I had no hesitation agreeing with the Mods about PR. 
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: josephpalazzo on August 08, 2019, 12:47:15 PM
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I think the difference was that PR really truly hated some groups of humans, and atheists, in general do not.  In my life, I have met some atheists (who were atheists by discussion and claims I could not deny) who were among some of the meanest people I ever met. 

Being an atheist doesn't mean you are ethical or not.  It just means you don't basically see a reason to think there is a deity of any sort.  And I (as many others here) am prepared to debate those atheists here and now on any topic. 

If a local shooter claims to be an atheist and shows evidence of it from past posts or discussions, I will accept that atheists can be wanton killers or even just plain mean people.

There is no rule that atheists have to be people who agree with me of any or all social issues.  I don't think that atheists are always right.  I just think they generally have the best approach to reality.

When I joined this forum, 13 years now, this forum was populated by a majority of right-wing atheists. There are few of us from that time. It slowly changed, and I believe there are more atheists on the left posting now. Political trends change. But PR was a moderate in those days. So, go figure.
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Baruch on August 08, 2019, 01:05:39 PM
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OMG. You're sounding like PR. If you think college students are being brainwashed, you need to go back to college, because you know nothing.

The purpose of all education (of the under 23 age group) is brainwashing.  Often parents don't get the brainwashing of their children they think their tax money or tuition is paying for.  A problem since Plato's academy for leftist gay atheism ;-)
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Baruch on August 08, 2019, 01:07:34 PM
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Huh, it's too bad. PR had an extreme right-wing POV. But nevertheless there are extreme left-wing POV's, which is tolerated. This is an atheist forum, and atheists of all political stripes should be welcomed. MHO.

His posted videos, his lack of commentary on those videos, his vehemence ... were problematic.  But at some point he dissed the mods I suspect.  One can't get away with that.  Always cooperate with the mods.
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Baruch on August 08, 2019, 01:10:00 PM
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Thanks for the info. If we were to apply the same standards, most of us would be banned...

Correct.  The mania of old age wears many of us down.  We don't even have his email address.  So Munch and I (his friends of a sort) can't even contact him.  Un-personed by Lavrenty Beria.
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Baruch on August 08, 2019, 01:12:17 PM
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He was off the map with his views, but he wasn't a troll.  A troll is someone who tries to piss people off.  He offended many, but I never felt like that was his intention.  I think he was just trying to convert people, or in his view, to get us to "see the light."  I was mystified by his misguided dedication, but aside from his narrow minded views, I think he could have been quite likeable.  But I have to admit that for him, nothing was up for discussion.  Everything was a one way lecture through weird Utube videos.

He saw GB in existential crisis.  The ends justified the means.  Munch doesn't agree.  Neither do I.  Whatever happens in GB, they will survive somehow ;-)  And I don't see the US in existential crisis either ... just a lot of electioneering.  But it is fun to poke the dragons.
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Baruch on August 08, 2019, 01:14:09 PM
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When I joined this forum, 13 years now, this forum was populated by a majority of right-wing atheists. There are few of us from that time. It slowly changed, and I believe there are more atheists on the left posting now. Political trends change. But PR was a moderate in those days. So, go figure.

Hard to imagine.  I would have had to have taken a more Leftist POV had I been here then (been her 4 years).  I am a radical Centrist.
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: josephpalazzo on August 08, 2019, 02:49:41 PM
So here's my take: as AF got more left-wingers, PR was pushed further to the right. So if he was banned on account of that, it's ALL your fault. Anyhoo, that's my theory, and I'm sticking with that...
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Cavebear on August 08, 2019, 04:17:48 PM
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When I joined this forum, 13 years now, this forum was populated by a majority of right-wing atheists. There are few of us from that time. It slowly changed, and I believe there are more atheists on the left posting now. Political trends change. But PR was a moderate in those days. So, go figure.

Well, I've known a couple "right-wing" atheists in my time.  But they were always considered "suspicious" and "gun nuts".  I do try to deal with differences so long as the discussion is among atheists.  In fact, that is mostly why I'm here.  I could discuss nearly any subject here elsewhere and not reveal that I'm an atheist.  But I have a deep desire to understand how my fellow atheists view certain topics.
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Baruch on August 08, 2019, 04:19:10 PM
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Well, I've known a couple "right-wing" atheists in my time.  But they were always considered "suspicious" and "gun nuts".  I do try to deal with differences so long as the discussion is among atheists.  In fact, that is mostly why I'm here.  I could discuss nearly any subject here elsewhere and not reveal that I'm an atheist.  But I have a deep desire to understand how my fellow atheists view certain topics.

You have mostly lived inside the Beltway.  I consider that flyover country.
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Cavebear on August 08, 2019, 04:34:34 PM
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You have mostly lived inside the Beltway.  I consider that flyover country.

I fondle my nose hairs at your pasty unFrench ignorance, you son of a stoat!  I fart in your jeneral direction!

I only spent 3 years inside the beltway while living in a U of MD dorm.  After that, I couldn't afford it, so I went to the hinterlands barely outside...  Then I got a real job and moved a few miles further,  you unfatted goose liver...

Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Baruch on August 09, 2019, 07:58:19 AM
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I fondle my nose hairs at your pasty unFrench ignorance, you son of a stoat!  I fart in your jeneral direction!

I only spent 3 years inside the beltway while living in a U of MD dorm.  After that, I couldn't afford it, so I went to the hinterlands barely outside...  Then I got a real job and moved a few miles further,  you unfatted goose liver...

Rewatching Monty Python And The Holy Grail?
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Cavebear on August 12, 2019, 06:24:20 AM
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Rewatching Monty Python And The Holy Grail?

Not familiar with it.  Why?
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Baruch on August 12, 2019, 06:30:25 AM
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Not familiar with it.  Why?

See, you are a Millennial before there were Millennials.  You stayed in your mother's basement playing video games all day, before it became a meme.
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Unbeliever on August 12, 2019, 03:12:43 PM
Anyone who's missed Monty Python's Search for the Holy Grail has missed one of the best English comedy movies ever made!
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: aileron on August 12, 2019, 04:32:20 PM
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Anyone who's missed Monty Python's Search for the Holy Grail has missed onw of the best English comedy movies ever made!
Agreed. It also has some great digs against religion. No spoilers here.
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Baruch on August 12, 2019, 06:02:26 PM
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Agreed. It also has some great digs against religion. No spoilers here.

And you get to practice your Latin grammar ;-)

I also recommend ... A Funny Thing Happened On The Way To The Forum.  The Romans should be kicked too.
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Simon Moon on August 12, 2019, 06:08:45 PM
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Anyone who's missed Monty Python's Search for the Holy Grail has missed one of the best English comedy movies ever made!

Absolutely!

One of the funniest movies ever made.

It makes #3 on Rotten Tomatoes list of the 140 best comedies of all time.

And #1 on IMD.

Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Baruch on August 12, 2019, 06:50:41 PM
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Absolutely!

One of the funniest movies ever made.

It makes #3 on Rotten Tomatoes list of the 140 best comedies of all time.

And #1 on IMD.

It is very hard to best a classic.  The format was taken from Shakespeare, who took it from old Latin comedy, who took it from Greek new comedy, to took it from Greek old comedy.  Pedigree!  So classic, that ancients could have followed the plot.
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: aileron on August 12, 2019, 07:12:51 PM
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And you get to practice your Latin grammar ;-)

I also recommend ... A Funny Thing Happened On The Way To The Forum.  The Romans should be kicked too.
The Latin grammar bit was Life of Brian, unless there was one in Holy Grail too.
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Baruch on August 12, 2019, 07:15:43 PM
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The Latin grammar bit was Life of Brian, unless there was one in Holy Grail too.

Oops.  Old age.  Funny anyway.
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Cavebear on August 12, 2019, 09:56:38 PM
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See, you are a Millennial before there were Millennials.  You stayed in your mother's basement playing video games all day, before it became a meme.

I was joking.  I know parts by rote.  I can quote some of Monty Python,and Firesign Theater easily.  Thou shalt not count to four for the first, and "who can you be in 2 places at once when you're not anywhere at all". 

So come in out of the cornstarch and warm your muckluks by the (fake) fire.
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Unbeliever on August 12, 2019, 10:04:58 PM
But it's just a cute little bunny rabbit...


LOL
Title: Re: Could "the real god" convert you?
Post by: Cavebear on August 12, 2019, 10:27:40 PM
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But it's just a cute little bunny rabbit...
LOL

"a vicious streak a mile wide!"  Hurray for The Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch!