including SCOTUS ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pas6Pf70hh8
I love Dogbert..... he makes me think of Trump.
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-_Kn7VGeI4x0/Tf9JPoOGdaI/AAAAAAAAFp8/Y45TqtppoTg/s1600/Suit%2527sSafe.gif)
Dogbert is one of the greatest creations of all time. He is relentless in his (oddly unsuccessful) pursuit of world dominance. But mostly, he represents the worst of humanity so purely and innocently. And he demonstrates utter greed and simple hopes. In one thought, he supported world-wide de-weaponization because then he could conquer the world with a butter-knife.
Dogbert is the most direct character I've ever seen. The complete opposite of The Pointy-Headed Boss (of whom I had several), he brings logic to a final illogical conclusion.
Nazis were rational. But evil.
Quote from: Baruch on June 06, 2019, 07:06:48 AM
Nazis were rational. But evil.
OK *sigh* why do you think the Nazis were "rational"? The evil is assumed...
Quote from: Cavebear on June 06, 2019, 09:34:29 AM
OK *sigh* why do you think the Nazis were "rational"? The evil is assumed...
It is reasonable to grab more territory and resources, and that people will resist. Therefore you have to kill the people who will or could resist. But they did this in an irrational way. It is the nature of all social arrangements to expand until they can't. See "the banality of evil".
Frankly I have always thought the greatest part of the "Nazi's" were men and women who found themselves in positions they could not get out of. I imagine a great deal of them had absolutely no hatred towards Jews per se, but caught up in the mob mentality had very little recourse or perhaps lose their own lives. I often wonder how many of the soldiers wished they could have just go home and leave he world alone. I suspect even when they were winning they would have just as rather gone home. But maybe I am wrong....though that is rare of course.
Quote from: Baruch on June 06, 2019, 12:05:00 PM
It is reasonable to grab more territory and resources, and that people will resist. Therefore you have to kill the people who will or could resist. But they did this in an irrational way. It is the nature of all social arrangements to expand until they can't. See "the banality of evil".
I almost fell for the argument you didn't QUITE make. Nice! You didn't actually mention any group in particular.
I don't know if you intended it or not, but that was an accurate description of Europeans and then Americans spreading across the North American continent.
Quote from: aitm on June 09, 2019, 06:17:13 PM
Frankly I have always thought the greatest part of the "Nazi's" were men and women who found themselves in positions they could not get out of. I imagine a great deal of them had absolutely no hatred towards Jews per se, but caught up in the mob mentality had very little recourse or perhaps lose their own lives. I often wonder how many of the soldiers wished they could have just go home and leave he world alone. I suspect even when they were winning they would have just as rather gone home. But maybe I am wrong....though that is rare of course.
When the army comes and says "fight or be killed now", what do most people do?
Some obey, some don't. I've never been faced with that choice, and most people haven't. I know what I'd LIKE to think I would do...
Quote from: aitm on June 09, 2019, 06:17:13 PM
Frankly I have always thought the greatest part of the "Nazi's" were men and women who found themselves in positions they could not get out of. I imagine a great deal of them had absolutely no hatred towards Jews per se, but caught up in the mob mentality had very little recourse or perhaps lose their own lives. I often wonder how many of the soldiers wished they could have just go home and leave he world alone. I suspect even when they were winning they would have just as rather gone home. But maybe I am wrong....though that is rare of course.
How many German soldiers shot for being insufficiently enthusiastic? 27,500
How many American soldiers shot for being insufficiently enthusiastic? 141
Of course more crimes were committed, but weren't caught.
Quote from: Baruch on June 10, 2019, 08:45:14 AM
How many German soldiers shot for being insufficiently enthusiastic? 27,500
How many American soldiers shot for being insufficiently enthusiastic? 141
Of course more crimes were committed, but weren't caught.
So, are you saying that more German soldiers were "insufficiently enthusiastic" or that they were just more readily shot?
Quote from: Cavebear on June 11, 2019, 02:31:51 AM
So, are you saying that more German soldiers were "insufficiently enthusiastic" or that they were just more readily shot?
That Germans weren't all monsters. But their regime was. FDR wasn't all that bad, unless your name was Prentice Bush.
Quote from: Baruch on June 11, 2019, 04:49:43 AM
That Germans weren't all monsters. But their regime was. FDR wasn't all that bad, unless your name was Prentice Bush.
That wasn't my claim. I asked a question you didn't answer.
Quote from: Cavebear on June 11, 2019, 04:53:23 AM
That wasn't my claim. I asked a question you didn't answer.
I answered and you dithered. Try again later.
Quote from: Baruch on June 11, 2019, 04:57:58 AM
I answered and you dithered. Try again later.
Never one to dodge a challenge... OK, you said "That Germans weren't all monsters. But their regime was. FDR wasn't all that bad, unless your name was Prentice Bush."
I agree all Germans weren't monsters (but sang 'The I Was Not A Nazi Polka" afterwards). Their regime WAS evil. FDR was generally pretty good. Took the US through The Great Depression and most of WWII and all that. Few leaders could have.
I can't find "Prentice Bush". Did you mean "Prescott Bush"? Was there a name change?
Anyway, I answered your questions.
Quote from: Cavebear on June 11, 2019, 05:11:06 AM
Never one to dodge a challenge... OK, you said "That Germans weren't all monsters. But their regime was. FDR wasn't all that bad, unless your name was Prentice Bush."
I agree all Germans weren't monsters (but sang 'The I Was Not A Nazi Polka" afterwards). Their regime WAS evil. FDR was generally pretty good. Took the US through The Great Depression and most of WWII and all that. Few leaders could have.
I can't find "Prentice Bush". Did you mean "Prescott Bush"? Was there a name change?
Anyway, I answered your questions.
OK, Prescott Bush. But you took the numbers and forgot them. The Germans had to kill at lot more of their troops than the US did. My claim is that their regime tried to force them to do more evil shit than our regime did (and we did do some evil shit too). The staff failure rate among Einsatz-gruppen folks was higher than most other military units ... I strongly suspect. Soldiers killing soldiers was normal.
Quote from: Baruch on June 11, 2019, 05:29:10 AM
OK, Prescott Bush. But you took the numbers and forgot them. The Germans had to kill at lot more of their troops than the US did. My claim is that their regime tried to force them to do more evil shit than our regime did (and we did do some evil shit too). The staff failure rate among Einsatz-gruppen folks was higher than most other military units ... I strongly suspect. Soldiers killing soldiers was normal.
We all mistake names sometimes. I'm notorious for it. So no problem, I was just checking about that.
I did NOT forget the numbers. I fully realize that many Germans were forced to fight when they didn't want to. And on the Eastern Front against the Soviets, I sure understand that. It was horrible for both sides...
But I also know that the German desertion and punishment rate was also larger after they started to lose. It's easy to be loyal when you think you are winning.
You made good points.