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Science Section => Science General Discussion => Topic started by: aitm on June 02, 2019, 02:12:06 PM

Title: Evolution Forced
Post by: aitm on June 02, 2019, 02:12:06 PM
We have all seen them. Dozens...maybe a hundred, perhaps more. Animals supposedly "enemies" living together "seemingly" happily and playful with otherwise....dinner or the hunter. We have seen animals introduced at a young age having absolutely(?) no/or very little aggressive behavior towards their "friend". Obviously this brings to question...forgetting about the scale of the experiment...can we, could we, should we...forget about the concept of leaving animals in "the wild" and help them overcome "instinct" and learn to co-habituate peacefully?

Why not? What "lesson" is there learned to watch animals terrorize and kill other animals? For our enjoyment? What if we could eliminate all that and in the process perhaps change the culture of life? Granted, we have monumental issues with feeding carnivorous animals with the hope that enough animals die of age or other natural means that we could satisfy the need. But, if we could also put aside the concept that humans are special we could add their ample and continuous supply. I for one would not be adverse to the idea. Hopefully being dead first of course.

Animals have evolved for millennia...including us animals....why can't we force evolution into more peaceful world? Now I know there are some that enjoy watching animals or humans bring terrorized and killed......don't particularly understand the position but I know there are many that do enjoy the sport. Of course, set aside the more obvious fact that we fence, terrorize and kill plenty to eat.......so a bit of a grand piece of hypocrisy but hey.....one step at a time.

But we have seen first hand....albeit somewhat controlled environments that show animals can to a degree live quite peacefully and seemingly happily with their otherwise dinner sleeping next to them as friend and as them being their protector.

Accept.....for this argument.... that all creatures have equal status if such universe understood and considered the peace...In a world full of such misery and if such grand notions of karma actually existing.....right......what if?
Title: Re: Evolution Forced
Post by: Minimalist on June 02, 2019, 03:22:26 PM
When I look at what humans have accomplished I am inclined to say "leave the animals alone."
Title: Re: Evolution Forced
Post by: aitm on June 02, 2019, 04:43:20 PM
Quote from: Minimalist on June 02, 2019, 03:22:26 PM
When I look at what humans have accomplished I am inclined to say "leave the animals alone."

I know you're being a little facetious and glib on purpose and rightfully somewhat so...however humanity has made pretty good strides to be less barbaric day to day. No doubt the seemingly endless history of wars may be used as an argument but humanity...person to person... has gotten beyond the kill at sight that we were as little as 500 years ago.

And perhaps you say that realizing how our attempts as a national entity, being governed and pressed by less than noble interests, in the spirit of national security, has undoubtedly reigned more hell on earth that the animals could ever imagine....and as well have no interest in animals unless there is a dollar to me made or a billion to be made. None-the-less...humans as a whole seem to be more encouraged by the idea that we may be able to lessen the carnage on the earth if we can perhaps lessen the carnage of the "lesser" animal species. If successful could insects be next?
Title: Re: Evolution Forced
Post by: Baruch on June 02, 2019, 09:41:21 PM
Optimists always ignore tragedy.
Title: Re: Evolution Forced
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on June 03, 2019, 05:20:07 AM
Too many cliches out there. "Fighting like cats and dogs" isn't automatic.
Title: Re: Evolution Forced
Post by: aitm on June 03, 2019, 09:16:23 AM
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on June 03, 2019, 05:20:07 AM
Too many cliches out there. "Fighting like cats and dogs" isn't automatic.
Correct...raised together dogs and cats are quite fond of each other
Title: Re: Evolution Forced
Post by: Mike Cl on June 03, 2019, 11:50:12 AM
Do you suppose the hierarchy of needs fits in here?
Needs lower down in the hierarchy must be satisfied before individuals can attend to needs higher up. From the bottom of the hierarchy upwards, the needs are: physiological, safety, love and belonging, esteem and self-actualization.

Maslow (1943, 1954) stated that people are motivated to achieve certain needs and that some needs take precedence over others. Our most basic need is for physical survival, and this will be the first thing that motivates our behavior. Once that level is fulfilled the next level up is what motivates us, and so on.

1. Physiological needs - these are biological requirements for human survival, e.g. air, food, drink, shelter, clothing, warmth, sex, sleep.

If these needs are not satisfied the human body cannot function optimally. Maslow considered physiological needs the most important as all the other needs become secondary until these needs are met.

2. Safety needs - protection from elements, security, order, law, stability, freedom from fear.

3. Love and belongingness needs - after physiological and safety needs have been fulfilled, the third level of human needs is social and involves feelings of belongingness. The need for interpersonal relationships motivates behavior

Examples include friendship, intimacy, trust, and acceptance, receiving and giving affection and love. Affiliating, being part of a group (family, friends, work).

4. Esteem needs - which Maslow classified into two categories: (i) esteem for oneself (dignity, achievement, mastery, independence) and (ii) the desire for reputation or respect from others (e.g., status, prestige).

Maslow indicated that the need for respect or reputation is most important for children and adolescents and precedes real self-esteem or dignity.

5. Self-actualization needs - realizing personal potential, self-fulfillment, seeking personal growth and peak experiences. A desire “to become everything one is capable of becoming”(Maslow, 1987, p. 64).

I would suspect it would be much the same of animals.  If their physical needs are met and they feel they can count on it to be so, they would be more likely to live and let live. 
Title: Re: Evolution Forced
Post by: Hydra009 on June 03, 2019, 01:38:38 PM
Quote from: aitm on June 02, 2019, 02:12:06 PMcan we, could we, should we...forget about the concept of leaving animals in "the wild" and help them overcome "instinct" and learn to co-habituate peacefully?
We can raise certain individual animals of domesticated species to live together in peaceable ways.  That happens.  Hell, even wild animals do that from time to time.  But to try to engender all-peaceable behavior among animals at large is well beyond our ability, perhaps not even possible at all.

Obligate predators have obvious instinctive hurtles, but even herbivores are known to be rather aggressive and ruthless at times, even to animals that aren't a threat to them (rhinos and hippos come to mind).  And of course, most animals are not domesticable - not changeable - in ways that humans would like.

It's also unclear what the consequences would be from this massive alteration of nature.  Removing the pressure of predation has had some consequences (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestication_of_animals#Brain_size_and_function) among domesticated species.  Extending that to all animals would be a hell of a shift.
Title: Re: Evolution Forced
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on June 03, 2019, 05:16:15 PM
I read an end-of-the-world story about a man, a dog, and a cat in an apartment. There was enough information via the TV to assure us that no help was coming for anyone. The man was dead and the cat was on top of the bookcases. The dog was faced with a choice.
Title: Re: Evolution Forced
Post by: Cavebear on June 04, 2019, 05:37:47 AM
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on June 03, 2019, 05:16:15 PM
I read an end-of-the-world story about a man, a dog, and a cat in an apartment. There was enough information via the TV to assure us that no help was coming for anyone. The man was dead and the cat was on top of the bookcases. The dog was faced with a choice.

I've always assumed my cats would eat me out of desperation if I died.  Not like I'D know..  Or care.

Title: Re: Evolution Forced
Post by: Cavebear on June 04, 2019, 05:42:51 AM
Quote from: Mike Cl on June 03, 2019, 11:50:12 AM
Do you suppose the hierarchy of needs fits in here?
Needs lower down in the hierarchy must be satisfied before individuals can attend to needs higher up. From the bottom of the hierarchy upwards, the needs are: physiological, safety, love and belonging, esteem and self-actualization.

Maslow (1943, 1954) stated that people are motivated to achieve certain needs and that some needs take precedence over others. Our most basic need is for physical survival, and this will be the first thing that motivates our behavior. Once that level is fulfilled the next level up is what motivates us, and so on.

1. Physiological needs - these are biological requirements for human survival, e.g. air, food, drink, shelter, clothing, warmth, sex, sleep.

If these needs are not satisfied the human body cannot function optimally. Maslow considered physiological needs the most important as all the other needs become secondary until these needs are met.

2. Safety needs - protection from elements, security, order, law, stability, freedom from fear.

3. Love and belongingness needs - after physiological and safety needs have been fulfilled, the third level of human needs is social and involves feelings of belongingness. The need for interpersonal relationships motivates behavior

Examples include friendship, intimacy, trust, and acceptance, receiving and giving affection and love. Affiliating, being part of a group (family, friends, work).

4. Esteem needs - which Maslow classified into two categories: (i) esteem for oneself (dignity, achievement, mastery, independence) and (ii) the desire for reputation or respect from others (e.g., status, prestige).

Maslow indicated that the need for respect or reputation is most important for children and adolescents and precedes real self-esteem or dignity.

5. Self-actualization needs - realizing personal potential, self-fulfillment, seeking personal growth and peak experiences. A desire “to become everything one is capable of becoming”(Maslow, 1987, p. 64).

I would suspect it would be much the same of animals.  If their physical needs are met and they feel they can count on it to be so, they would be more likely to live and let live.

Don't be too intellectually formal.  The need is food and water.  For domesticated animals. the water would be self-fulfilling in the toilet.  So the meat the pets need would be trash and me. 

Has anyone watched 'Life After People'?
Title: Re: Evolution Forced
Post by: Cavebear on June 04, 2019, 05:47:33 AM
Quote from: aitm on June 02, 2019, 02:12:06 PM
We have all seen them. Dozens...maybe a hundred, perhaps more. Animals supposedly "enemies" living together "seemingly" happily and playful with otherwise....dinner or the hunter. We have seen animals introduced at a young age having absolutely(?) no/or very little aggressive behavior towards their "friend". Obviously this brings to question...forgetting about the scale of the experiment...can we, could we, should we...forget about the concept of leaving animals in "the wild" and help them overcome "instinct" and learn to co-habituate peacefully?

Why not? What "lesson" is there learned to watch animals terrorize and kill other animals? For our enjoyment? What if we could eliminate all that and in the process perhaps change the culture of life? Granted, we have monumental issues with feeding carnivorous animals with the hope that enough animals die of age or other natural means that we could satisfy the need. But, if we could also put aside the concept that humans are special we could add their ample and continuous supply. I for one would not be adverse to the idea. Hopefully being dead first of course.

Animals have evolved for millennia...including us animals....why can't we force evolution into more peaceful world? Now I know there are some that enjoy watching animals or humans bring terrorized and killed......don't particularly understand the position but I know there are many that do enjoy the sport. Of course, set aside the more obvious fact that we fence, terrorize and kill plenty to eat.......so a bit of a grand piece of hypocrisy but hey.....one step at a time.

But we have seen first hand....albeit somewhat controlled environments that show animals can to a degree live quite peacefully and seemingly happily with their otherwise dinner sleeping next to them as friend and as them being their protector.

Accept.....for this argument.... that all creatures have equal status if such universe understood and considered the peace...In a world full of such misery and if such grand notions of karma actually existing.....right......what if?

Are you talking about predators and prey living together?  That doesn't happen beyond what the predators need for food daily.

But yes, dogs and cats can live together in a house so long as adequate food is provided by humans.  But that only lasts so long as the dogs are fed.  A hungry dog would eat its best cat friend.
Title: Re: Evolution Forced
Post by: aileron on August 04, 2019, 08:48:25 PM
Humans have already profoundly impacted the course of evolution for many if not most non-microscopic plants and animals. In general, the bigger the animal, the greater the effects.

Life among large animals has never been so tame. Humans eradicated large predators from wide swaths of land on every continent. Even in the oceans we've decimated some predators such as sharks. The large land herbivores that show aggression toward humans haven't done particularly well either.

Right now the greatest evolutionary pressure on large animals is being liked by humans. So in a sense, aitm, life -- at least large life -- is trending in the direction you describe. Although some animals will continue to be used for livestock, perhaps we will get to the point where they are treated humanely for a good life followed by one very bad day. It wasn't that long ago (1950's) that countries like the US had no protections for how we slaughtered livestock (we still don't for some animals though). Eisenhower once remarked that if he had to guess the nation's priorities by the mail he received, he would have to conclude that the Humane Methods of Slaughter Act was the nation's top priority in 1958.
Title: Re: Evolution Forced
Post by: Cavebear on August 05, 2019, 08:11:33 AM
Quote from: aileron on August 04, 2019, 08:48:25 PM
Humans have already profoundly impacted the course of evolution for many if not most non-microscopic plants and animals. In general, the bigger the animal, the greater the effects.

Life among large animals has never been so tame. Humans eradicated large predators from wide swaths of land on every continent. Even in the oceans we've decimated some predators such as sharks. The large land herbivores that show aggression toward humans haven't done particularly well either.

Right now the greatest evolutionary pressure on large animals is being liked by humans. So in a sense, aitm, life -- at least large life -- is trending in the direction you describe. Although some animals will continue to be used for livestock, perhaps we will get to the point where they are treated humanely for a good life followed by one very bad day. It wasn't that long ago (1950's) that countries like the US had no protections for how we slaughtered livestock (we still don't for some animals though). Eisenhower once remarked that if he had to guess the nation's priorities by the mail he received, he would have to conclude that the Humane Methods of Slaughter Act was the nation's top priority in 1958.

I'm impressed.  So many human migration experts REFUSE to say that human contact with most large prey mammals is the cause of their extinction.  And while I agree that correlation is not proof, it seems pretty obvious from the timing of human migrations that "good food animals" pretty much disappear after human contact if they can't be domesticated.

In Africa, prey animals evolved with us, so learned to survive.  And Africa wasn't the best place for human population explosion.

Elsewhere, where large mammals encountered humans, humans either ate them all or killed off the threats because they wern't accustomed to the threat WE presented.  A moose is fast, but it can't outrun us in the long term.  And we are sneakier...
Title: Re: Evolution Forced
Post by: Baruch on August 05, 2019, 12:08:48 PM
Quote from: Cavebear on August 05, 2019, 08:11:33 AM
I'm impressed.  So many human migration experts REFUSE to say that human contact with most large prey mammals is the cause of their extinction.  And while I agree that correlation is not proof, it seems pretty obvious from the timing of human migrations that "good food animals" pretty much disappear after human contact if they can't be domesticated.

In Africa, prey animals evolved with us, so learned to survive.  And Africa wasn't the best place for human population explosion.

Elsewhere, where large mammals encountered humans, humans either ate them all or killed off the threats because they wern't accustomed to the threat WE presented.  A moose is fast, but it can't outrun us in the long term.  And we are sneakier...

What about squirrel? - Boris and Natasha.
Title: Re: Evolution Forced
Post by: drunkenshoe on August 05, 2019, 12:28:32 PM
Domesticated animals, dogs and cats live together because we changed them. There was a piece on how humans and dogs evolved together. They benefit from it by living with us. Same with cats.

But with wild animals I don't see that. Actually I don't even see it with domesticated species that are not used to humans. 

You guys don't have stray cats, right? Over here around the summer house we have strays coming from wilderness and the adults never let you pet them, doesn't matter how much time passes or how long you feed them. Yes, in time they come close, don't run away easily, may be rarely you even touch them once or twice in years but you are alien to them. They never trust like that. Their attitude is very different from others.

It's weird. One gave birth in our garden, kittens got big enough to play. We didn't touch them, but of course they weren't like the mother. They never got like the others. May be that one was different, may be it takes a few generation. I have no idea. But it is obvious. It's there. She is actually living around, coming and going, stays close, but she is not 'domesticated'. And she is not planning to. She paws and does it differently, if you manage to get close enough of course. (I mean the mother.)

And you know what, house cats mess up with others, but not with them, lol. 
Title: Re: Evolution Forced
Post by: Baruch on August 05, 2019, 12:38:19 PM
We have stray dogs and cats in my neighborhood.  Population goes up and down.  Most commonly the stray dog is a neighbor dog, not really stray.  I'm good with animals ... I try to feed stray Ds and Rs with campaign contributions ;-)  I hear Istanbul has a large stray cat problem.
Title: Re: Evolution Forced
Post by: Cavebear on August 05, 2019, 12:57:47 PM
Quote from: Baruch on August 05, 2019, 12:08:48 PM
What about squirrel? - Boris and Natasha.

I can "hear" you saying that as Boris, Natasha, and even Fearless Leader.  Do you have a preference?  Well, I need to get back to Frostbite Falls to attend a navigation class at Whatsamatter U (taught by Professor Wrongway of course...
Title: Re: Evolution Forced
Post by: drunkenshoe on August 05, 2019, 01:23:50 PM
What are the stray Rs?
Title: Re: Evolution Forced
Post by: Baruch on August 05, 2019, 02:02:10 PM
Quote from: Cavebear on August 05, 2019, 12:57:47 PM
I can "hear" you saying that as Boris, Natasha, and even Fearless Leader.  Do you have a preference?  Well, I need to get back to Frostbite Falls to attend a navigation class at Whatsamatter U (taught by Professor Wrongway of course...

I have misplaced my monocle, and I won't comment about dressing up as Natasha ... dahlink.
Title: Re: Evolution Forced
Post by: Baruch on August 05, 2019, 02:03:06 PM
Quote from: drunkenshoe on August 05, 2019, 01:23:50 PM
What are the stray Rs?

Cats and dogs don't take campaign contributions ... duh.  Stray political candidates.
Title: Re: Evolution Forced
Post by: Cavebear on August 05, 2019, 02:07:29 PM
Quote from: drunkenshoe on August 05, 2019, 12:28:32 PM
Domesticated animals, dogs and cats live together because we changed them. There was a piece on how humans and dogs evolved together. They benefit from it by living with us. Same with cats.

But with wild animals I don't see that. Actually I don't even see it with domesticated species that are not used to humans. 

You guys don't have stray cats, right? Over here around the summer house we have strays coming from wilderness and the adults never let you pet them, doesn't matter how much time passes or how long you feed them. Yes, in time they come close, don't run away easily, may be rarely you even touch them once or twice in years but you are alien to them. They never trust like that. Their attitude is very different from others.

It's weird. One gave birth in our garden, kittens got big enough to play. We didn't touch them, but of course they weren't like the mother. They never got like the others. May be that one was different, may be it takes a few generation. I have no idea. But it is obvious. It's there. She is actually living around, coming and going, stays close, but she is not 'domesticated'. And she is not planning to. She paws and does it differently, if you manage to get close enough of course. (I mean the mother.)

And you know what, house cats mess up with others, but not with them, lol.

I'm part of a cat-blogging community.  They discuss ferals sometimes.  Some feed them and adopt the kittens to socialize them.  There are a couple of wanderers around here.  I can't tell if they have a home or not.  My male cat "Marley" is pretty big and strong and will confront them.

But I know what you mean about true ferals.  They are used to fighting to the death for anything and most housecats aren't used to that no matter how big and strong.
Title: Re: Evolution Forced
Post by: Cavebear on August 05, 2019, 02:09:27 PM
Quote from: Baruch on August 05, 2019, 02:03:06 PM
Cats and dogs don't take campaign contributions ... duh.  Stray political candidates.

Ah, that solved my confusion about stray R's...  I WAS about to ask.
Title: Re: Evolution Forced
Post by: Unbeliever on August 05, 2019, 02:11:50 PM
Quote from: Cavebear on August 05, 2019, 08:11:33 AM
A moose is fast, but it can't outrun us in the long term.  And we are sneakier...

Nothing can outrun humans in the long run. Our sweat glands give us the ability to run down any prey, because they can't dispel their body heat the way we can, and so they'll eventually collapse, no matter how fast they can run to start with.
Title: Re: Evolution Forced
Post by: drunkenshoe on August 05, 2019, 02:18:37 PM
Quote from: Cavebear on August 05, 2019, 02:07:29 PM
I'm part of a cat-blogging community.  They discuss ferals sometimes.  Some feed them and adopt the kittens to socialize them.  There are a couple of wanderers around here.  I can't tell if they have a home or not.  My male cat "Marley" is pretty big and strong and will confront them.

But I know what you mean about true ferals.  They are used to fighting to the death for anything and most housecats aren't used to that no matter how big and strong.

Oh they are called 'feral' in English. They are different. I think I even know a few feral related ones around. Just a guess of course. They are jaw dropping hunters and can jump so high it is a scene. LOL well they are cats after all, but it is something else.   

Americans house cats are so big. I've haven't seen a small or a medium sized one there yet. They probbaly have a serious impact on the nature around outside.
Title: Re: Evolution Forced
Post by: drunkenshoe on August 05, 2019, 02:21:03 PM
Quote from: Unbeliever on August 05, 2019, 02:11:50 PM
Nothing can outrun humans in the long run. Our sweat glands give us the ability to run down any prey, because they can't dispel their body heat the way we can, and so they'll eventually collapse, no matter how fast they can run to start with.

Are you sure? Antelopes probably can. Also grey wolves? Not to mention wolves can run long in freezing degrees.
Title: Re: Evolution Forced
Post by: Baruch on August 05, 2019, 02:25:22 PM
Quote from: Unbeliever on August 05, 2019, 02:11:50 PM
Nothing can outrun humans in the long run. Our sweat glands give us the ability to run down any prey, because they can't dispel their body heat the way we can, and so they'll eventually collapse, no matter how fast they can run to start with.

Most of us are out of shape.  And Bushmen were put on reservation.  So we are all out of luck.
Title: Re: Evolution Forced
Post by: Unbeliever on August 05, 2019, 02:29:24 PM
Quote from: drunkenshoe on August 05, 2019, 02:21:03 PM
Are you sure? Antelopes probably can. Also grey wolves? Not to mention wolves can run long in freezing degrees.
I'm not sure about much of anything, but I heard that humans can just keep going and going and going, until the prey drops. As long as they don't lose it, they can chase it down slowly, especially if they've already wounded it.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persistence_hunting#In_humans
Title: Re: Evolution Forced
Post by: PopeyesPappy on August 05, 2019, 02:33:45 PM
Quote from: drunkenshoe on August 05, 2019, 02:21:03 PM
Are you sure? Antelopes probably can. Also grey wolves? Not to mention wolves can run long in freezing degrees.

A pronghorn can run at a sustained speed of 30 mph for about an hour. At that speed it would take them about 52 minutes to run a marathon. World record for a mere human is a little over two hours.
Title: Re: Evolution Forced
Post by: Cavebear on August 05, 2019, 02:35:22 PM
Quote from: Unbeliever on August 05, 2019, 02:11:50 PM
Nothing can outrun humans in the long run. Our sweat glands give us the ability to run down any prey, because they can't dispel their body heat the way we can, and so they'll eventually collapse, no matter how fast they can run to start with.

Yeah, "hunting by exhaustion".  But that really only works on wide open plains.  Prey can hide really well in woods.  I actually tripped over a fatally-wounded deer I was tracking once.  It didn't get a 2nd chance to run, but dang they can lay low.

Cliff falls were another good trick.  One of my favorites in prehistory are rows of boulders leading to a box canyon.  Deer-types tend to follow landscape, and the boulders guided them.  Fire is also good.  No having to move boulders around.
Title: Re: Evolution Forced
Post by: Cavebear on August 05, 2019, 02:40:33 PM
Quote from: drunkenshoe on August 05, 2019, 02:21:03 PM
Are you sure? Antelopes probably can. Also grey wolves? Not to mention wolves can run long in freezing degrees.

Antelopes can't.  That's how wolves catch them.  Wolves do the heat exhaustion thing too, though they have to do it in series (panting is their only cooling method).  I suspect that is why we get along with dogs.   Same hunting techniques "back then".   
Title: Re: Evolution Forced
Post by: drunkenshoe on August 05, 2019, 02:42:05 PM
Quote from: PopeyesPappy on August 05, 2019, 02:33:45 PM
A pronghorn can run at a sustained speed of 30 mph for about an hour. At that speed it would take them about 52 minutes to run a marathon. World record for a mere human is a little over two hours.

That's like 48 kmh. Well, that's what you call stamina. Thank goodness they don't eat meat,lol. 
Title: Re: Evolution Forced
Post by: drunkenshoe on August 05, 2019, 02:49:38 PM
Quote from: Cavebear on August 05, 2019, 02:40:33 PM
Antelopes can't.  That's how wolves catch them.  Wolves do the heat exhaustion thing too, though they have to do it in series (panting is their only cooling method).  I suspect that is why we get along with dogs.   Same hunting techniques "back then".

Oh yeah wolves. 40 mph. But as Pop posted antelopes do have really good stamina in the long run compared to humans. But then Unbeliever is right too, apparently humans can outrun most animals. 

Probably, all apex predators have excellent stamina. Grey wolves are apex predators. Actually, it just ringed a bell, this animal could even be the stamina champion. Not sure. I think there was a docu about this.
Title: Re: Evolution Forced
Post by: Cavebear on August 05, 2019, 02:53:06 PM
Quote from: drunkenshoe on August 05, 2019, 02:18:37 PM
Oh they are called 'feral' in English. They are different. I think I even know a few feral related ones around. Just a guess of course. They are jaw dropping hunters and can jump so high it is a scene. LOL well they are cats after all, but it is something else.   

Americans house cats are so big. I've haven't seen a small or a medium sized one there yet. They probbaly have a serious impact on the nature around outside.

Small feral cats don't survive well.  The big ones just take any food they catch.

Housecats, on the other paw, do quite well at all sizes.  I have a 6 pound female Siamese, a 10 pound Female Tonkinese, and a 14 pound Orange Calico male domestic short hair*.  I had a 16 pound orange male domestic short hair before, and he could jump 6' straight up.  And with him, there was a Tuxedo female who was apparently and English Cobby cat.  Cobbies are all muscle.  It was "interesting" with those two...

* Yes Marley is a MALE calico cat.  Its rather rare.  It takes 2 X chromosomes, so he has to be a triploid if I understand it right.  Too bad he was neutered when I got him...
Title: Re: Evolution Forced
Post by: aileron on August 05, 2019, 03:01:52 PM
Quote from: PopeyesPappy on August 05, 2019, 02:33:45 PM
A pronghorn can run at a sustained speed of 30 mph for about an hour. At that speed it would take them about 52 minutes to run a marathon. World record for a mere human is a little over two hours.

Pronghorns indeed have impressive speed and stamina, but nowhere near a human's speed and endurance for the last 100 years. It's only because it's not sporting that we don't hunt them from helicopters -- though Sarah Palin authorized hunting wolves from Helicopters and Obama put the kibosh on it.
Title: Re: Evolution Forced
Post by: Cavebear on August 05, 2019, 03:02:44 PM
Quote from: drunkenshoe on August 05, 2019, 02:49:38 PM
Oh yeah wolves. 40 mph. But as Pop posted antelopes do have really good stamina in the long run compared to humans. But then Unbeliever is right too, apparently humans can outrun most animals. 

Probably, all apex predators have excellent stamina. Grey wolves are apex predators. Actually, it just ringed a bell, this animal could even be the stamina champion. Not sure. I think there was a docu about this.

I had to check about the antelope.  They are good runners.  But there seems to be documentary evidence from David Attenborough of Bushmen running down an antelope on open plains in high heat.  And it reminded me that it is called "persistence hunting".  Apparently, there is no prey animal a physically-fit human can't run down in the proper circumstances.
Title: Re: Evolution Forced
Post by: drunkenshoe on August 05, 2019, 03:08:05 PM
Quote from: Cavebear on August 05, 2019, 02:53:06 PM
Small feral cats don't survive well.  The big ones just take any food they catch.

Housecats, on the other paw, do quite well at all sizes.  I have a 6 pound female Siamese, a 10 pound Female Tonkinese, and a 14 pound Orange Calico male domestic short hair*.  I had a 16 pound orange male domestic short hair before, and he could jump 6' straight up.  And with him, there was a Tuxedo female who was apparently and English Cobby cat.  Cobbies are all muscle.  It was "interesting" with those two...

* Yes Marley is a MALE calico cat.  Its rather rare.  It takes 2 X chromosomes, so he has to be a triploid if I understand it right.  Too bad he was neutered when I got him...

Ooo quite a family. We've only looked after street strays so far. Taken as a kitten. Current one, Peanut. Female, 3kg. Short haired, 8,5 year old multicoloured and a bitch. LOL She thinks she is one of the big cats, us. My dad looks after a group of cats at the summer house and she treats them very badly. She is the royalty you see. She is sweet on a big, dark tabby male this summer though. Figures. She screams at him full throttle and then watches him for hours close and he rolls on the floor show her his belly. Loool. I have never looked after a cat like this one. She is properly abstinate, distant, but wants attention all the time too. Come, go.  Oh my god, I just realised my cat has borderline personality disorder LOOL

Title: Re: Evolution Forced
Post by: Cavebear on August 05, 2019, 03:08:50 PM
Quote from: aileron on August 05, 2019, 03:01:52 PM
Pronghorns indeed have impressive speed and stamina, but nowhere near a human's speed and endurance for the last 100 years. It's only because it's not sporting that we don't hunt them from helicopters -- though Sarah Palin authorized hunting wolves from Helicopters and Obama put the kibosh on it.

You mentioned helicoptors.  Forgive me repeating an anecdote about that.  Credit Ed Zern...

"In WWII in North Africa, 2 British pilots boasted of their hunting skills and wagered 2 pints of cold Stout on who could bag a lion first.  The first guy took up his rifle and set off.  The 2nd guy got in his airplane, shot the hell out of the nearest lion and returned to base and drank both Stouts.

Thus proving that the shortest distance between two pints is a strafed lion".

Title: Re: Evolution Forced
Post by: aileron on August 05, 2019, 03:10:53 PM
Quote from: Cavebear on August 05, 2019, 03:08:50 PM
Thus proving that the shortest distance between two pints is a strafed lion".

I'd tell my kids this dad joke, but they'd probably have to have strafing explained to them. I guess that's a good thing that kids rarely have reason to know what that means.
Title: Re: Evolution Forced
Post by: PopeyesPappy on August 05, 2019, 03:12:46 PM
Quote from: Cavebear on August 05, 2019, 03:02:44 PM
I had to check about the antelope.  They are good runners.  But there seems to be documentary evidence from David Attenborough of Bushmen running down an antelope on open plains in high heat.  And it reminded me that it is called "persistence hunting".  Apparently, there is no prey animal a physically-fit human can't run down in the proper circumstances.

There are 135 different species of antelope. If Attenborough documented Bushmen running down an antelope on open plains in high heat it probably wasn't a pronghorn.
Title: Re: Evolution Forced
Post by: Cavebear on August 05, 2019, 03:18:11 PM
Quote from: drunkenshoe on August 05, 2019, 03:08:05 PM
Ooo quite a family. We've only looked after street strays so far. Taken as a kitten. Current one, Peanut. Female, 3kg. Short haired, 8,5 year old multicoloured and a bitch. LOL She thinks she is one of the big cats, us. My dad looks after a group of cats at the summer house and she treats them very badly. She is the royalty you see. She is sweet on a big, dark tabby male this summer though. Figures. She screams at him full throttle and then watches him for hours close and he rolls on the floor show her his belly. Loool. I have never looked after a cat like this one. She is properly abstinate, distant, but wants attention all the time too. Come, go.  Oh my god, I just realised my cat has borderline personality disorder LOOL

From our POV, ALL cats have personality disorders.  "Dogs have masters; Cats have staff", etc.  ;)  But from their POV, they are entirely rational.  IOW, eat any food you can catch or steal (in my house, there is the infamous chicken thigh incident), sleep on whatever is warm, stay near anything that will protect you, hide from threats, bury your poop, and don't waste energy.

And pretend to obey the Human who picks the Catnip Leaves and opens the Cans Of Stinky Goodness!

MOL!*

*"Meowing Out Loud"  I invented that...
Title: Re: Evolution Forced
Post by: drunkenshoe on August 05, 2019, 03:27:54 PM
Quote from: Cavebear on August 05, 2019, 03:18:11 PM
From our POV, ALL cats have personality disorders.  "Dogs have masters; Cats have staff", etc.  ;)  But from their POV, they are entirely rational.  IOW, eat any food you can catch or steal (in my house, there is the infamous chicken thigh incident), sleep on whatever is warm, stay near anything that will protect you, hide from threats, bury your poop, and don't waste energy.

And pretend to obey the Human who picks the Catnip Leaves and opens the Cans Of Stinky Goodness!

MOL!*

*"Meowing Out Loud"  I invented that...

LOL I know. But see, she doesn't do that. She doesn't steal food! All of the others did. And she eats very little. She doesn't even ask for meat or fish when cooked freshly scent all over everywhere. She meows for certain little kind of fish we have in the country at north, and it comes here rarely. But it must be very fresh. OK I'll give her that, it is worth a lot. But I give her meat, I give her salmon -and I don't share my salmon!- she turns her head away, lol.

All my other cats used to declare war on the kitchen when cooking fish. And they always had their portion to begin with. Different personality.

 
Title: Re: Evolution Forced
Post by: Cavebear on August 05, 2019, 03:29:25 PM
Quote from: PopeyesPappy on August 05, 2019, 03:12:46 PM
There are 135 different species of antelope. If Attenborough documented Bushmen running down an antelope on open plains in high heat it probably wasn't a pronghorn.

You may be correct.  I can't prove that one way or another and won't try.  There can always be an exception.  And, for example, you couldn't kill a crocodile that way.  For all I know, the only pronghorn an early human ever ate was killed by ambush.  But the basic idea remains.

But, heh-heh, I will remind you that You made the claim about the Pronghorn being the exception.  Doesn't that place the burden of proof on you?  ;)

Don't worry about it.  In general, persistence hunting was successful and humans are one of the very few who could and can do it.

Title: Re: Evolution Forced
Post by: Cavebear on August 05, 2019, 03:38:44 PM
Quote from: aileron on August 05, 2019, 03:10:53 PM
I'd tell my kids this dad joke, but they'd probably have to have strafing explained to them. I guess that's a good thing that kids rarely have reason to know what that means.

They have probably seen more violence in cartoons, but I agree.  If they haven't, no need to push it. 

I know a few long, complicated puns, but they all seem wrong for children.  I'm not sure whether that says more about me or the nature of complicated puns... But have you heard the one about Sherlock Holmes and the tent?

" Sherlock Holmes and Dr. Watson decide to go on a camping trip. After dinner and a bottle of wine, they lay down for the night, and go to sleep in their tent.

Some hours later, Holmes awoke and nudged his faithful friend.

"Watson, look up at the sky and tell me what you see."

Watson replied, "I see millions of stars."

"What does that tell you?"

Watson pondered for a minute.

"Astronomically, it tells me that there are millions of galaxies and potentially billions of planets."
"Astrologically, I observe that Saturn is in Leo."
"Horologically, I deduce that the time is approximately a quarter past three."
"Meteorologically, I suspect that we will have a beautiful day tomorrow."
"What does it tell you, Holmes?"

Holmes was silent for a minute, then spoke: "Watson, you idiot. Someone has stolen our tent!
"
Title: Re: Evolution Forced
Post by: aileron on August 05, 2019, 03:50:14 PM
Quote from: PopeyesPappy on August 05, 2019, 03:12:46 PM
There are 135 different species of antelope. If Attenborough documented Bushmen running down an antelope on open plains in high heat it probably wasn't a pronghorn.

Pronghorns are colloquially called antelope, but they're not in that family. Antelope have antlers and pronghorns have, well, horns. Their closest living relatives are giraffes.
Title: Re: Evolution Forced
Post by: PopeyesPappy on August 05, 2019, 04:08:09 PM
Quote from: aileron on August 05, 2019, 03:50:14 PM
Pronghorns are colloquially called antelope, but they're not in that family. Antelope have antlers and pronghorns have, well, horns. Their closest living relatives are giraffes.

Didn't know that. Apparently pronghorn are more closely related to giraffe than to antelope. Learn something new everyday.
Title: Re: Evolution Forced
Post by: drunkenshoe on August 05, 2019, 04:26:28 PM
Giraffes. Well, that explains the running skills.
Title: Re: Evolution Forced
Post by: Cavebear on August 05, 2019, 04:51:23 PM
Quote from: aileron on August 05, 2019, 03:50:14 PM
Pronghorns are colloquially called antelope, but they're not in that family. Antelope have antlers and pronghorns have, well, horns. Their closest living relatives are giraffes.

Wow!  I checked that.

"Antelopes are not a cladistic or taxonomically defined group. The term is used to describe all members of the family Bovidae that do not fall under the category of sheep, cattle, or goats".  That includes Giraffes.  I would not have guessed they weren't a sort of deer.

Kudos to Aileron...
Title: Re: Evolution Forced
Post by: Baruch on August 05, 2019, 07:08:39 PM
Quote from: Unbeliever on August 05, 2019, 02:29:24 PM
I'm not sure about much of anything, but I heard that humans can just keep going and going and going, until the prey drops. As long as they don't lose it, they can chase it down slowly, especially if they've already wounded it.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persistence_hunting#In_humans

Natural super-marathoners.